Hi "Letto" for fun I tried to count. Out of 97 posts 15 were 'yours.' I just want to thank you for your disproportianate contributions. As though saying the same non-truth over and over gave it more credence....Sincerely, a supporter of Israel.

Bye Bush and Condor

I'm looking to Condor's words. "There are no 19th century IMPERIALISTIC solutions to 21st century issues. The sooner the Zionists and the US realize it the better for mankind so we can tackle the issues of global survival."

Instead of concentrating on fears of a war economy being the only answer - first because, as physics relates; there are an infinity of possibilities as outcomes to events - and second, because, concentrating on fears or what you think might happen brings it closer to reality, because you're not putting energy into finding solutions, the mind is too occupied, too closed to what could be... in this case, I think that a green economy can be a replacement for a war economy. The developmental speed of this is actually quite astonishing and unfortunately we don't hear that much about it.
I find it particularly interesting that some of the Middle Eastern countries are putting a great deal of money and effort into solar. Once oil has peaked, will they again become a major supplier of energy to the rest of the world?
Germany over the last 5 years has created a great many green jobs and Spain is following on its heels.
I believe that there is another way to look at the current economical crisis..I see it as a shakedown of a system of greed and dishonesty that reached critical mass. I believe the months and years ahead will be difficult, challenging, but this gigantic global economic 'cleanse' had to happen.
As far as Gaza and Israel, both of which are a concentrated reflection of problems worldwide, the old diatribes, the old labels, the old rock throwing, bombing, etc etc hasn't worked. And yes, I do believe that what's happening there is being manipulated by elections, fascistic moralistic power groups... at the same time, we are our enemy. If you take the time to really listen to messages that come from Hamas and from Israel, take out the specific names/nouns there are many similarities. And then, think of the underpinnings of what each side's message is.... fear, the need for respect and safety...
We can sit hear, writing and posting messages that are full of hate, citing history over and over, taunting and berating, or how about something really radical? we could start to communicate, start 'what if's' in this conversation, putting out ideas that however wild and crazy they might seem could lead to another and another..and who knows where and how it would play out in regards to these two countries?
Turn off the auto pilot! Put your hands on the wheel.

Nahida, is that true? were you really banned from this site? I'd like to hear more. I know NPR banned someone who used to criticize Israel because they just got too much blowback, they never got another dime from me.

"Israel has targeted Hamas, but the vast majority of the casualties from its attacks have been civilian police officers, government workers, and other civilians."

Actually, I agree with one military policy analyst who claimed that Israel is targeting all Palestinians, including civilians, to send a message not to elect Hamas again.

The targeting of civilians is a terrorist act. Israel, the new Hamas. Terrorism has won.

Watch the video:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope

"There are no 19th century IMPERIALISTIC solutions to 21st century issues. The sooner the Zionists and the US realize it the better for mankind so we can tackle the issues of global survival."

Condor here, just about says it all with this eloquent summary phrase. (another masterpiece by the way, Condor, imho. Thanks for taking the time to illuminate me.)

On a great board of raw free speech, such as Common Dreams, one occationally stumbles upon such sterling insight as this thread. One of the salient points which intrigues me is your prediction that all manufacturing (or more sucintly, all marketable economic power) will continue to move to the East, as it already has with China, leaving the U.S. to implode on itself economically.

But from a longer-term outlook, doesn't this conflict with your summary that constant growth in manufacturing is unsustainable from environmental catastrophy pressure? (Already, the naked coal smokestacks in China and the U.S. are showering most of the continents in a fine mecury fallout, which is a consequence of so-called "clean coal.") In other words, while some global trade will remain, the current model of ravinous consumerism with eternal market growth is doomed. At some point, China, to take the biggest example, will be like Detroit and have few affluent customers to sell to who are willing to breathe their emmissions in exchange for a desposable lifestyle.

At some point, will the value of breathable air and non-tainted milk over ride the "invisable hand" of the market?

So although the "manipulators of the universe" those power-elitists who run everything never intended to shift the U.S. out of base commodity manufacturing (they were just greedily trying to evade U.S. labor and environmental laws by going offshore), the net result is that one fake bubble after another is now needed to take the place of GNP (which is not even reported anymore since there is none in the U.S; now GDP has taken it's place.) Now I think we are in the treasury note bubble.

First they told us we were a manufacturing economy before all the tooling tech was shipped to Japan and China. Then we were a service sector economy. When those jobs went to India we became a consumer economy. Now that all the consumers are bankrupt... What the hell are we now?

I fear answer is: A WAR ECONOMY (that's what was engineered after the last depression to get everybody working: WWII.)

and like the war powers of Rome, Spain, Britain and countless others at some point, the odds of being able to subdue the whole world and pay for it, become questionable. At that point, as Britain found out, it is far better to save the democracy and give up the empire.

Hopefully Obama's admin will pull us out of these carbon wars, and rebuild the country anew on the foundation of something valuable to the whole world: cheap alternative energy. As you noted: the demise of U.S. education will hamper those efforts. Half the U.S. population does not gradute from high school now and the ones that do cannot pass basic tests of literacy. (Side note: so as long as Common Dreams doesn't institute flashy fox-type moron graphics the "Redeye" type of simple-minded poster will get bored and stay off this site.)

The big thing on my mind this new year is hyperinflation or deflation? Eventually the U.S. true >10% inflation will soar out of sight with all this monopoly money floating around. But when? Just to service the debt from years past was slated at 450 billion interest due 2009. But that was before seven trillion in freddie/fannie mort obligations assumed by the taxpayer and about as much total bailout handouts to date. There's an additional 14 billion owed right there just in the last six months. We thought it was going to implode in 1972 when france demanded it's gold (that we no longer had) but the poni scheme continued. Luckily two years ago, I saw this train wreck comming. Unluckily, I couldn't see how to get off the train safely!

Enjoy talking with you friends.

Who's to blame?

According to the Bible, when the Jews arrived in palestine, it was already occupied. (These days, saying "God gave it to me," smacks of religious supremacy).

In 1880, some European jews decided they wanted a jewish homeland, so they chose the Biblical location. Again-it was already occupied.

People who want to believe that prime coastal land in the Mediterranean was barren are the same type of people who would buy the Brooklyn bridge--or they have a very stereotypical racist view of arabs--assuming that they all lived on the backs of camels(makes sense, since the jews of the Bible cared little about all the other kingdoms, seeing how they were the Chosen people of the One True God). They dont give a shit about non jews or their culture.

The scam Israel pulls is that a bunch of racist intolerant arabs refused to let peaceful settlers take over an empty part of the desert, and in attacking Israel kept losing more land.

In reality, the zionist settlers would buy land from absentee arab land owners and make rules that it could only be sold to jews. This understandably pissed off the indigenous arab(and jewish) inhabitants.

The zionists who say that the palestinian arabs should have just relocated to another part of the desert show their contempt for non jewish culture and society.
If french canadians went to France and kicked out the local inhabitants, would Spain, the UK and other countries be happy and content to take the refugees forever?

The arab treatment of palestinians is abysmal, but Israel is still to blame for creating the problem.

With British and American help, as well as the propaganda value of the Nazi years(just because you suffer in one land, doesnt mean you have the moral right to make others suffer in another) they took as much land as they could grab by force(which is why Gandhi, despite many attempts by zionists to get him to endorse the project--refused and called it naked terrorism. "Palestine belongs to the arabs" he said).

This is the root of the conflict-and nothing has changed.
Israel refused peace deals by Egypt in 71, as well as 81, and the Saudi deal of 2002.

It says a jew whose family lived in Russia for a thousand years has more right to live in Palestine than a palestinian whose family has lived there for 1000s of years.

Israel is the problem.

Lebanon 06 proved this beautifully.

It claimed it attacked because 2 soldiers were captured(for a prisoner exchange, since Israel has 10 000 Lebanese prisoners).
Then Hezbollah retaliated with rockets(understandable to non zionists since trying to get soldiers back by destroying a city and killing 1000 isnt usually seen as a smart way of doing it), and israel then said it was fighting to stop the rockets.
Then it said it was going to destroy Hezbollah.

It refused ceasefires, it polluted the Lebanese coast with oil and refused to let clean up teams survey the damage--and it made sure to drop hundreds of thousands of land mines before leaving.

And in the end-it didnt get its soldiers back, or stop the rockets or stop Hezbollah.

To buy into Israel's thinking you have to believe:

a) jews are superior in value to non jews

b) only jews have a right to defend themselves

c) jews are perfect

d) Israel is both the greatest victim and the strongest army--amazing how both can be true eh?

It was Israel that had school children write messages on bombs that would be dropped on Lebanon.

There are other players to blame--no question that the palestinian leadership has been bad, arab regimes corrupt and paid for by the West, and the West has allowed Israel to do all it has done.

But that doesnt hide the fact that Israel either does not want peace, or is too mentally ill to understand how to be civil.

If you step on the heads of the people around you to get the center seat in a movie theater, you cant expect the people to offer you popcorn, especially when you kick their head in asking them.

This is what Israel has done.

In short: european jews emigrated to arab land and established an ethnocentric society by force. That's the root of the problem.

Everything else is a diversion/distraction.

New Years Revolution.
http://www.coalitionoftheilling.com

To my friends here who have taken the time to reply to my strategic and military analysis of this unfair and unfortunate aggression by the US supplied Zionist military machine against unarmed civilians in Gaza's urban ghettto. Your points about modern weaponry are well taken, However, my simple and glaring point was about the global DEMOGRAPHICS and ECONOMIC change that is underway.

Sure, the US and the Zionists can definately KILL millions with MOABS and even nukes, but eliminating 2 BILLION plus Muslims in an inter-connected world is SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE unless we are talking Armagedon. You enlightened thinkers are also correct about the other catastrophic issues like Climate Change and Global Warming which will cause further destabilization on this diminishing planet Earth plagued by hunger, energy crises and over-population.

As far as the economic consequences are concerned, the US economy is being hollowed out and dumbed down on a daily basis. American internal demographics are also shifting rapidly. One does not have to be demographer to realize that Hispanification or RE-CONQUISTA is rapidly underway across the US, particularly South-Western States. The process of complementary "dumbing down" is also a by-product of this demographic phenomenon. This does not auger well for the US in terms of global economic comeptition and moves towards a "CREATIVE ECONOMY" essential for competitiveness. Only means of survival in the new economy is through INNOVATION and INTELLECTUAL CAPITAL and not fritting away scarce resources in aimless 19th century colonial wars with fuedal societies, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. The US can print worthless BILLIONS of dollars, but at the end of the day, its decaying economy still has to compete in a cut-throat world where China produces over 42% of all manufactured goods, with India, Vietnam, Brazil, Taiwan, Iran, Russia etc all catching up in terms of mass production of textiles, heavy machinery, aviation industries, automotive, electronics,medical sciences, and consumer goods etc. Brazil and many other nations are now agricultural powerhouses too.

So this rather bizarre and simplistic assumption by the neo-crazies that a wasteful and counter-productive military-industrial destruction export economy will somehow ensure US "supremacy" is delusional to say the least. The US economy is a paper tiger with national debt well in excess of $12 TRILLION or slightly greather that its total annual GDP. And it is in permanent decline as the standard of living drops, education becomes unattainable and manufacturing vanishes from North America.

So in conclusion, spending a TRILLION dollars plus on lost wars since 2002 is SHEER LUNACY. The paranoid and mute "terrorism" phenomenon created by the brain-dead Bush administration is also suicidal along with counter productive hate-mongering Islamophobia will definately not guarantee US or Zionist survival in the dynamic new Asia centric world order.

As far as the Zionist entity is concerned, its violent actions and daily murder of Palestinians will only undermine its future as DEMOGRAPHICS and global power shift will ensure its oblivion. As most of you have astutely pointed out, the US economy and the tax-payers are no longer in a position to under-write blank checks to the Zionists to commit mass murder of civilians in front of global media, particularly Arab TV channels. The puppet regimes in Egypt,Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the kleptocracies of the Persian Gulf are also sweating the public reaction to Zionist atrocities.

In 2009, the the besieged US economy will shed over 2 MILLION jobs (excluding the auto sector which itself is in doldrums and will not survive in the long run) and over 250,000 SME (small to medium businesses) will go bankrupt. American standard of living will decline by around 30% as well as 80 million ageing baby-boomers will have increased medical demands and diminishing assests, including vanishing pensions and savings. The mass of Hispanics, both legal and illegal will not even have the service sector jobs that served as a safety value for Mexico and furthered the RE-CONQUISTA. The drug wars in Mexico are an omen of the violence to come.

All of these are very serious issues and I firmly belive that "wars" or paper tiger military "might" will not work but will literally consume the US. Propping up dictatorships in the neo-crazy US imperium is not possible. The simmering lost wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are costing the US around $10-12 BILLION a week and indirect (US based costs like logistics, mobilization of reserves, lost wroking hours for the mobilized National Guard, medical care, broken families etc) are costing another $5 billion a week. This at a time when the economy is shrinking and other major powers like China, India, Russia, Iran, Brazil etc are leaping ahead.

If Obama pushes the war into the failed nation of Pakistan with an impoverished and illiterate madrassa brain-washed population of 200 million, then all bets are off for the US economy and long term strategic survival. A low intensity conflict in South Asia will literally devour the imploding American economy and consume its military age manpower. The most modest estimates for such a folly are in the neighborhood of $50 BILLION a month, not to mention the nuclear dimension for the failed Pakistani state.

So my friends, military power does not really equate to the long term survival of any state that has failed its people and bankrupted its economy on delusions of grandeur. The USSR in 1989 had over 20,000 nukes, 3.6 million soldiers, 50,000 tanks and APC's, 7,800 military jets and aircraft, 550 major surface ships and nuclear submarines, but the misadventure in Afghanistan broke its economy and shattered its military "might". It is the same fuedal Afghans, opium smugglers, Taliban Wahabbi (Saudi funded) fanatics and an assortment of national resistance forces that will take the US nascent Empire down the garden path so ignorantly and hatefully laid out by the Zionist mafia of neo-crazies like Daniel Pipes, Wolfowitz, Perle etc.

There are no 19th century IMPERIALISTIC solutions to 21st century issues. The sooner the Zionists and the US realize it the better for mankind so we can tackle the issues of global survival.

Back to you Letto, I just read your post replying to my "us or them mentality". You know for every Hamas radical who will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel there is a settler (and Christian radical evangelical for that matter) who will settle for nothing less than the acquisition of the Greater Israel, from the sea to the banks of the Jordan, it is God's will. In every society it is the people in the middle who keep the crazies in check. I am always surprised that there isn't more comparison made to the situation in Ireland. If the English as started bombing whole towns in Ireland because they knew the IRA was hiding out do you really think the world would have stood by? Do you think the Irish Americans wouldn't have stormed the Whitehouse? This is just another example of Western-style colonialism. In this century,people just don't have the same stomach for a greedy land grab from indigenous people so you must mask it as something else.

Sorry you can't handle the truth Redlyne. I am an American, not a Palestinian let alone a member of Hamas but I know an injustice when I see it, and so do the millions, maybe billions of people who have been kept from seeing the truth by the media bias. The tide is turning however, you better get ready.

From the horse’s mouth:

Some Jews talking amongst themselves; they wish victory to Hamas, encourage Palestinian to join Hamas, and want the destruction of israel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://palestineisrael.ning.com/forum/topics/urgent-actions-for-peace

1) By: gad yariv

so let get to the point... this is nice and all, but your basic Assumption is wrong, people don't want to change the way things go, you Assumption the people in Israel don't want war... but that's just me pessimistic. There are all ready many groups working for this cause, with people from Israel Palestine and all over the world.

Ask Eva or any other of the guys on the site they can give you a list.
I would say there is no use in all they do, cause in the end most of the Israelis just want the Palestinians dead, and until they can kill us in the numbers we kill them things will never change, hay, but don’t listen to me, this young and already this negative.

Used to think like you, then joined some groups, later joined the evil mepeace, can't think like you any more.
Even most of the Israelis peacemakers don’t really want peace. (None of the guys in this site included)

Yes what is happening is our RESPONSIBILITY, but the killing in Gaza is not the army makings or the governments making, it's us, all Israelis who are responsible.

The government is just a representation of the people, and we could have had peace with the Palestinians a very long time ago, if we really wanted it.

And what would I say to a fellow Palestinian pacemaker, I will say that I have a great respect for him for the path he choose, but drop it, you have a better chance joining Hamas.

If I could I would have given you your house back in Haifa and give up half of this stupid land, but all the other guys in Israel all they want is to see you dead.

2) Shaul

Dear Gad,

As usual, you sound very pessimistic about all the situation here, but as usual, I tend to agree with you.
This particularly inept and cruel "war" (in fact, a blunt Israeli aggression against the population of Gaza) shows more clearer that ever the deep racist chauvinism of the vast majority of the Jewish Israelis, including, as you say very justly, sadly enough, most of the so-called leftist. For all of them, the life of one Jew in Israel is worth more than the life of hundreds of Palestinians...

Like you, I am very pessimistic about the possibility to change something significantly in the frame of the present State of Israel. There is something too fundamentally wrong with this country, so rotten to the core, that it must first disappeared as such before a radical change in the situation here can occur.

The Jewish Israeli state, in its present form, can only live by the sword, and you will have to abolish it in order to reach peace, but the paradox is that it has not the slightest chance to be accepted as a peace program by the immense majority of the Jewish population of Israel, except for a few dissidents, or "traitors", like you and me. Yes, in the present mood, I am beginning to wish a victory of the Hamas...

Letto, you can't possibly be that ignorant of history and human psychology as you appear. There will always be radical, sick criminal elements in a society just as right now there are cancer cells, deadly viruses and other pathogens in our bodies. It is a healthy immune system that keeps these things in check. Israel has messed terribly with the immune system of the indigenous people. I believe they have done this on purpose to give them an excuse to finally be able to annihilate as many of the Palestinians as they can. I can only imagine how your radical settlers would act if they were in the position of the Gazans right now--and you know that is true.

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Reality in Palestine

http://palestinian.ning.com/video/1970466:Video:37170

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Gaza Massacre - The Movie

http://palestinian.ning.com/video/video/show?id=1970466%3AVideo%3A37291

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Nowhere to run for those trapped in Gaza

http://palestinian.ning.com/video/nowhere-to-run-for-those

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This assault on Gaza is not about Hamas rockets--it's about the power struggle between Likud and Kadima. So, in order for Livni and Barak to appeal to the voters, hundreds of Palestinians have to die, thousands must be mutilated, and the civilian infrastructure must be destroyed? Even after the inevitable cease fire, the occupation of the West Bank, illegal settlements, and the seige of Gaza will continue. And the Israeli public supposedly needs this carnage to decide whom to vote for? Jews did not just lose their lives and land in the holocaust--they lost their souls and conscience.

A Letter from the Earth....

Dear God,,,

Oh Omnipotent and Omnivorous one I know you're busy, I checked your schedule, but I need only a few moments of your time..... As you probably know things are pretty fucked up down here on earth and getting worse with each passing day... So, I think it would be a good time for you to start over like you did a couple thousand years ago with Noah and the flood.... You were obviously pissed off with the descendants of Adam and Eve and they couldn't have been that bad compared to us!!!! Shucks they hadn't even invented napalm, cluster bombs or glory holes and you snuffed them!!! So I think it's high time you erased the descendants of Noah, Ham and Shemp and start from scratch again.... A few suggestions though.... Start with a larger gene pool..... That might be part of the problem what with all that inbreeding.... And may I suggest making the Irish your chosen people in place of the Jews.... They're basically a harmless lot and have never been interested in world domination or fucking people over seeing as they're too busy wondering where their next drink is coming from....

Ok that's it.... Try to get busy with this as soon as possible..... Your sometimes faithful and always humble servant.... Billy..

The article says, "The Palestinian death toll currently stands at 350 while more than a thousand have sustained injuries. The figure is expected to increase as Israel's bombardment continues".

UPDATE, and these numbers will soon be past, too.

"Despite poor weather, airstrikes continue; 395 killed, 2,000 injured", by MaanNews.net, Dec 31 2008

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m50177

Quote: "Medical sources put the number of dead at 395".

A local US California newspaper, part of a larger press group of course, on yesterday's front page, top of page, large letterings:

"Hamas Fires rockets deep into Israel"

and the article is subtitled:

"Four Israelis are killed as militants continue attacks"

Yet; the TRUTH is in here, see it with your own eyes:

http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story

SOLVING THE PROBLEM

Behind closed doors
In big dark rooms
Men in black and grey
Eating drinking
Laughing and chatting away
Gather to discuss
Our problem
The problem of
Palestinians!

They talked about
Democracy
Freedom
Human rights
And a solution
A vision
That will bring peace
To the troubled middle east!

"We can easily solve this
If only
If only
Those terrorists
Stop their violence"
They concluded

"And as for the refugees,
That's no problem
At all
Just give them some money,
Compensate,
And they'll all be content"

Those civilized
Freedom lovers
Peace protectors
Human right defenders
Inventors of ethics

Did they not know
That
A man
With a knife
Against his throat
Has the right
To push His butcher
Away!!

Did they not know
That
A child,
Who grew up
Far… far away
Deprived of the love
Gentle touch
And warm hugs
Of her beloved grandma
Given the infinite universe
Can never compensate her!!

"The board is hilarious. I mean it. It's hilarious. Dozens of terrorist apologists sitting around keyboards whining and moaning because your Palestinians, who freely and voluntarily chose violence at the ballot box, are getting their asses kicked for a fight they've been begging for. "Oh, the Israelis over-reacted, they're just rockets".... "Oh, 21 different world groups want Israel to stop"....."Oh, Israel better stop because they will lose again like they did in Lebanon"....

Please, your killing me. I haven't laughed this hard since Borat.

Just admit it. You poor babies are at heart trembling in your panties that Israel is going to get it right this time and knock the living snot out of every one of your Hamas "Freedom Fighters". Do you really think that Israel didn't learn from 2006 and is going to make the same mistakes again? Say what you want about the Jews, you have to admit that if there's one thing they can do it's learn.

And be honest. You're scared aren't you? You pretend here that you're not scared but tell me the truth. You think I don't know what you're worried about? Trust me, I do. You're kinda worried Israel might mean it this time, aren't you? Let's just say I feel your pain. And the bad news is that what you're afraid of is almost at your front door. Sorry, but I think the expression is "You asked for it". Better luck next time, sport.

And to the poster who said that Israel will lose, wanna bet? In fact, I'll bet you a corned-beef sandwich at the Deli of your choice that 30 days from now your Hamas will have set the P's back 20 years. Minimum.

And if you want to make it 50, just keep those rockets coming.

And also, as a personal favor, keep posting your self-serving, radical, ideologically barren anti-Israeli hit pieces. The news about you on television is going to be so grim in the next 3 weeks that I'll definitely need something to keep me laughing."

Happy New Year.

Redlyne

I am very disappointed in this writer, Mustafa Qudri. He demonstrates the ineffectiveness of liberals, of the peace movement (so-called), who refuse to support the insurgent movements in the Middle-East. They would rather be politically correct.

Rather than unquestioning support of Israel's latest military venture in the decades-long conflict, four major Jewish organizations here are calling for an immediate end to the bombings, and for humanitarian aid in the Gaza Strip.

One of the groups, Americans for Peace Now, the sister organization of the Israel-based Peace Now, called for "the government of Israel to end its military operation in the Gaza Strip and to act toward achieving a ceasefire."

And Bit Tzedek v'Shalom, the Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace, called on the outgoing U.S. President George W. Bush administration "to initiate an international effort aimed at negotiating and immediate ceasefire."

These strong statements, along with ones from J Street (the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement) and the Israel Policy Forum (IPF), are in sharp contrast to many of the more hawkish traditional pro-Israel groups, who make no mention of a cessation of armed hostilities. The confident assertions from the four groups are a relatively new sort of campaign.

"You see a voice that is increasingly clear and has a significant resonance in the American Jewish community, and beyond the Jewish community, that takes a position, stakes it grounds and won't be intimidated," said Daniel Levy, a former Israeli negotiator and the director of New America Foundation's Middle East Task Force, one of the four groups.

"This is an important position to be taking," he told IPS. "It's moving the ball forward on redefining the parameters of the debate on what it means to be responsibly and thoughtfully -- rather than reflexively -- pro-Israel."

The move by the groups is in many ways the culmination of a public relations effort of its own that seeks to establish a strong pro-peace, pro-Israeli voice that is not afraid to depart from the line of the Israeli government.

The groups are expressing a position that they, too, appreciate and support Israel and believe in its right to defend itself, just like their counterparts in the traditional, more powerful, so-called pro-Israel groups.

But Jeremy Ben-Ami, the executive director of J Street, says that the issue does not lie in a right to self-defense -- a given -- but whether an operation like the attacks on Gaza will even work.

"While... air strikes by Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza can be understood and even justified in the wake of recent rocket attacks," according to Ben-Ami, "we believe that real friends of Israel recognize that escalating the conflict will prove counterproductive, igniting further anger in the region and damaging long-term prospects for peace and stability."

J Street echoed its director's statement with a press release declaring that the recent massive escalation was "pushing the long-running Israeli-Palestinian conflict further down a path of never-ending violence."

CONDOR, although my phrasing would differ somewhat, I have to agree with you.

"The future surely does not look rosy for endless wars at a time of epic global geo-strategic and economic power shift to the east. This is a recipe for disaster of unmitigated proportions. Only diplomacy, inclusion and engagement will ensure survival for both the US and its arrogant Zionist surrogates in a rapidly changed world."

And I would add, that with climate change, drought, famine, etc (see the CNA strategic global projections for the upcoming 15-20 years (used by all branches of the military), all sides need to use diplomacy, inclusion and engagement if we are to survive.
War shifts borders which then shift again with the next war and through all that people starve, die, are mutilated.
I was interested by the story that is not an uncommon one when it comes to intelligence and torture and which somehow seems to be appropriate to what is happening on a larger scale in Israel and Palestine. The story had to do with obtaining information in a way that was diametrically opposed to Abu Graib. A muslim extremist was 'befriended' by his captors. This was a high ranking man not a foot soldier. Instead of waterboarding him, they spent time with him and ultimately when he let it be known that his wife needed surgery if she was to live, they offered him that option in exchange for what they wanted. Both sides got what they wanted.
I know that's a simplistic alliteration, however, if we don't begin to 'include and engage' nobody will win.
The will and the determination in the U.S. to elect Obama was stunning. Obama NEEDS to hear from this vast majority which became a unified front that Americans are unwilling to back Israel without any conditions. A pipe dream? Perhaps, but it has to start somewhere and that's what I meant by using the Internet. Hundreds of thousands of voices in unison blitzing the White House again and again and again will have to be addressed.
As for right now, the Arab world needs to come together to negotiate (and suicide bombers only ratchet up the odds of aggressive counter attacks whethere they are done by the special forces or armies).
I'm still asking 'where have the global Arab 'brothers' been when Palestinians could have used their support and diplomatic negotiations to see that they had food, water, medical supplies and so forth?

Letting all emotion aside and speaking from a purely military point of view. The pathetic bombing of civilians has underlined the growing incompetence and frightful state of the vaunted Zionist US supplied war machine. Historically, in 1967 the Zionist military defeated the combined armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria in six days and dropped about 150 tons of then free fall bombs and rockets on the Sinai, which was enough for Nasser's military to surrender 60,000 troops in Sinai alone.

In the crowded Gaza strip barely 30 kms long and 10 kms wide, the Zionist airforce has dropped over 200 tons of HE (high explosive), cluster (CBU banned for use against civilians) and phosphorous munitions in seven days non-stop now. Despite this savage and overwhelming use of airpower against 1.5 million unarmed civilians, the shameful Zionists have not been able to dent the morale or will of the Gazans. This does not auger well for the future of the shaky Zionist regime that faces DEMOGRAPHIC oblivion by 2020 anyway. The whole rational for a Zionist state was a homeland for the Jews. However, in about ten years there will be 6 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and another 5 million Palestinians in the global diapora and Jordan. So here goes the theory of a two-state solution down the tubes.

The simple military and strategic fact is: the Zionist military is a pale shadow of the war machine of 1967. The drubbing it receieved at the hands of Hezbollah in 2006 was pretty much a shape of the things to come. Hamas is a popular liberation/political movement and a popularly elected government, and all they have to do is to survive the onslaught and they will without any shadow of a doubt. Like Hezbollah, they will emerge more popular and powerful with more military experience and emboldened by a relentless baptism of fire.

The Zionists have shown their ultimate weakness, the fear of ground urban combat and total avoidance of taking casualties in close quarter ground combat in built-up areas with building rubble. Urban combat against motivated, well dug in and determined foes is no easy business, even for brave soldiers. Ask the Russians about the Chechens or the US invaders in Iraq, Afghanistan or Vietnam. Murdering large number of civilians is a sure fire way of ensuring more better and able next generation of fighers and hardened resolve.

The Syrians, Iranians and all potential Zionist and US foes have clearly soaked in the lessons of asymetrical warfare and are well aware of the military impotence of indiscriminate use of 21st century airpower against mobile and lightly armed forces. Just for reference, the population of Iran is 70 million, Syria 24 million and Lebanon 5 million. All these adversaries are neither land locked, blockaded or have flat deseert topography. Iran for instance has trained military age manpower of around 28 million fighting age men ( a military planners dream), Syria around 10 million and Hizbollah or the Lebanese Shia's can field around 1.3 million motivated able bodied fighters committed to martyrdom. In the 1980's Iranian defenders fighting Saddam's invasion lost 20,000 men in a single battle in just one day and did not blink. So scaring these types of fanatical foes is not on the cards for any military, let alone the Zionist conscript soft soldiers used to mistreating Arabs in occupied territories and Lebanon. The Zionist social system also creates a racist inferior view of the Arabs. This false racist bravado alone is a recipe for eventual defeat.

The armed forces of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and other potential foes also have first rate air-defence and anti-armor weapons and dug in fortifications. Both Hizbollah and Iran have the most educated, disciplined and battle hardened fighters in the world. The moral of this post is that the Zionist entity is living on borrowed time, both DEMOGRAPHICALLY and MILITARILY. And please do not whine about nuclear weapons etc, the USSR in 1989 had over 20,000 nukes but still collapsed. The Apartheid regime in South Africa had similar delusions and we all know the outcome. History is replete with instances of arrogant, brutal and short-sighted powers that now rest at the bottom of the dustbin of history.

Unless the Zionists come to their senses, they will eventually be worn dowm and will face eventual defeat, no matter. The over-burdened US taxpayers is not in a position to foot the bill for long as American economy is imploding and global power balance is moving to Asia for good.

The disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan have already bankrupted the US and 2009 is a harbinger of severe setbacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Just my two cents to give a whiff of reality about the counter-productive use of violence from someone who knows a thing or two about military and strategic affairs. Barely 5 million Jews living in a sea of angry, youthful and irate Arabs is not a recipe for long term survival for any state, let alone an imported one for the past 60 years. BTW, the Muslim world of roughly 2 BILLION people has the world's fastest growing and most youthful population, with an average age of around 17 years against over 50 plus for Europe and North America. The future surely does not look rosy for endless wars at a time of epic global geo-strategic and economic power shift to the east. This is a recipe for disaster of unmitigated proportions. Only diplomacy, inclusion and engagement will ensure survival for both the US and its arrogant Zionist surrogates in a rapidly changed world. A couple of generations is a blink of an eye in the unforgiving spectrum of history. A lesson worth remembering.

I agree with you da_black, except 911 was just a little too close for comfort for me. Israel is able to do what it is doing because of our support, and we support it because a small group of people with a lot of money, influence and determination are making sure we do. It would not have been allowed to continue it's land grab as it has if it wasn't for us. Go check our how many UN resolutions we vetoed.

Re: Hey Israel, your G-d is watching you - and boy is he pissed!

It's been a while since I have seen wall-to-wall dead Jews. So, I went to the 7-11 tonight, bought me a 12 pack of 'Bud' and now I am waiting for the IDF to invade Gaza so I can pop the pop-corn and break out a nice 'cool one.'

Pssst, hey honey, can we have our Hannakah seder sometine next week. Right now, the thought of dead IDF cowards bleeding all over the TV screen kind of makes me feel, queazy, ya know? :(

GOOD HUNTING & HAPPY NEW YEAR HAMAS!!!!

TheAZCowBoy
Tombstone, AZ.

BTW: Here in the old West, we take horse rustlers, Cattle thieves, claims jumpers, trespassers (Jew or otherwise) and we hang them from that old oak tree near Big Nose Kates saloon and 1/4 mile from 'Boot Hill Cemetery' we have been using since the 'Shoot-out at the OK Corral' in 1846.

I bet that Obama is thankful to the Israeli forces attacking Gaza. Have you all noticed that you all stopped talking about our fugged up economy, no jobs, lack of decent health care and the New Great Depression we're sliding into and have jumped on this renewed push to exterminate the Palestinians.

I'm not saying that this isn't important. Far from it. However, my mom told me that charity (Love) starts at home and spreads abroad. Maybe, if we was standing up with the same vehemence for our fellow slaves here in Amerika, we have the means to stop what's happening to our Palestinian brothers and sisters. Fix what's broken here at home and then, with renewed strength and some actual moral force, we could help in the Near East.

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." -- Frederick Douglass

Just read about the Hamas covenent.

It's an educational document that explain how the Hamas see themselves.
The Hamas covenent to the Hamas is like the US Constitution to the Americans.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Just watched the video Peace, 'Prpaganda and the Promised Land' on YouTube. Excellent, everyone should watch and forward.

Just one word comes to mind: "Einsatzgruppen"--the SS extermination squads of World War II.

============================================

EXTREMELY IMPORTANT

Please see the other side of the story:

http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story

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Everybody needs to read Blutodog' post below, the one made at 5:18. This is what is at the heart of the problem. Yes, it is about two sides at war and both sides have adopted an 'us or them' mentality. But here's the thing that gets me, we, America have chosen a side which I don't think most Americans would have chosen if we were informed-- and they know that. I had nothing to do with your people being thrown into ovens and I don't want blood on my hands now. Oh, and by the way, you are going to lose this one.

Pathos, you couldn't be more correct about getting media coverage and footage of the atrocities out there, but are you really that naive to not know why this hasn't been happening? If Americans only knew a 10th of what the Palestinians have been suffering the past decade or more things would be different. If they knew how many times we were the sole veto on UN resolutions against Israel. I laugh when I think of how crazed a good number of Americans were over Ruby Ridge and Waco--anyone remember Oklahoma City?--There is a Ruby Ridge or its equivalent every week in Palestine. Very wealthy and powerful people have been determined to make sure we see as little as possible. Ever wonder why no celebrites are speaking up? If years ago the government had just dropped bombs on all the backwoods compounds that were training for their big fight with the ATF. killing innocent bystanders, we would have had a Hamas in this country too.

Undoubtedly, the state of Israel has behaved abominably. At the same time, I keep wondering where the rest of the Arab world been over the last few years when Palestine so desperately needed them to get themselves into a unified stance regarding conditions on the West Bank. There have been many moments when they could have demanded to be part of talks and negotiations. Oil has certainly upped their leverage, but there are those who have instead asked for and taken weapons, etc (from the West - USA, France, Italy, Britain and so forth) to be used against alleged threats. Everytime something like this occurs, the stage has been left open to the extremists who start shouting about suicide bombers.
I find the conditions in Gaza horrible, and certainly Israel has played a great role in this nightmare. In some ways they're as bad as hard line Muslim countries and I truly wish that those who don't believe in what their country (Israel) has been doing would step forward, unify. On the other hand, I have to admit, what would I feel if someone said that my homeland had no right to exist.
What I also find interesting thinking about these two peoples, is that Israel is where the roots of Christianity are and Palestine is rooted in the Muslim religion so, in essence we are engaged there in something that reflects the grappling that's occuring on a larger stage - the world.
It seems that bottom line - eliminating all the rhetoric- is that both sides want respect and safety/security, a chance to breathe, to plant and to dream.
Perhaps, it's up to us, as global citizens, to find a way to move past the hot heads and the hard liners and begin the discussion that would include the man and woman on the street across borders...
don't know what it would be, but I'm open to suggestions...certainly, the Internet was a huge boost for the first person of color to become the next president of the United States...

The U.N. sits idle. The U.S. Government Promotes. When will the Americans rise up and demand a stop to all U.S. agression and support of agression. Do Americans want this agression? The country has been founded on agression and hate, does it need hate and agression to survive? Are the Americans afraid of change?

For all humanity and all that is in the Universe

,
This is a replay of the Aerial Bombardment of Poland in 1939. Kill and destroy the innocent population from the sky, before the Nazi Panzers roll in a few days later. The whole world can see these "Neo-Nazi", destroying the civilians of Gaza. These massacres of Arabs are "war crimes" of this new century.

International charges must be leveled against the State of Israel. If the United States does not condemn these war crimes, then it is allied with this murderoud Israeli Government!!!!!!!!!!!

,

Leto: "Also don't forget that the Hamas rockets also killed palestinian girls. Palestinians are humans too."
Do I detect a smirk behind this statement?

World's kudos to the brave people of Gaza who have withstood the savage and barbaric bombardment in history in such a densely populated urban area. This Zionist aggression with 21st century US supplied weapons against totally defenceless people is totally repugnent. It is so shameful that the world's "defenders" of human rights are silent in this genocide. However, the heroic resistance of the Gazans is not going unnoticed in the region. This is state supported and US sponsored terrorism against defenceless women and children at its lowest. This is the type of racist aggression that causes hatred against US policies in the world. This blatant wanton murder of civilians is going to have a severe blowback and will ultimately only strengthen the resistance. Six days of relentless bombing of civilians has not broken the will of Gaza. The regional implications of such heroic resistance is not lost on the Arab street. The puppet corrupt moth eaten regime of 81 year old Mobarek must be worried for its collaboration with the Zionist aggression. Mobarek apparently gave the final go ahead for this assualt last week to Tzipi Livni.

Mustafa Qadri (December 31, 2008): "So far, rockets fired from Gaza have killed two Israelis and injured several others."

I cought you with a lie Mr. Qadri.

Also don't forget that the Hamas rockets also killed palestinian girls. Palestinians are humans too. Don't ommit the Hamas crimes against Palestinians.

Enough to make Obama a chain smoker.

The Glue That Holds Chaos Together

While I suspect that Israel may be in the wrong on this conflict, it is assinine to suggest that the Palestinians have any shot of winning a war with Israel. If the situation escalates, Israel will simply bomb the Palestinians off of the face of the earth, and when it is over they will be forgotten. You can huff and puff all you want, but the big guns are on Israel's side. So if you really want the Palestinians to be properly represented then you need to find a way to get more media out to the world. You have to present your case without infantile threats of Fatwas or toungue flicking and burning effigies like a bunch of retards. You have to flood the media with footage of the attrocities that have been done to the Palestinians. You have to make the world see their suffering..in HD, if possible, and then you have to acknowledge the Holocaust and show your comparisons.

Hamas has said all along that they can stop rockets when the blockade is lifted and the assassination bombings of their elected government ends....

The rockets are stupid but any organization will hold on to its pride till the end.

The best thing for Israel and the world is to recognize Hamas and make peace with them.