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How I Committed Voter Fraud
This past week, I committed voter fraud. Or, I should say, "voter fraud" inside the same sarcastic scare quotes that John McCain deployed when he recently invoked that old tricky word "health," as in "health of the mother."
I didn't even need to take my cues from ACORN. I'm kind of a voter-fraud cell of one, you might say.
Here's how it went down.
Having moved to DC last year, I suddenly realized a week ago that I needed to register to vote at my new (disenfranchised) address by October 5th. So I dutifully printed out the form, filled it out and prepared to mail it. I happen to live in one of those pre-war apartment buildings that has a mail chute (side point: how great are mail chutes? why don't all buildings have them?). As I went to the mail chute to deposit my registration I encounter a problem: the chute hole was too small for the large registration form. So, foolishly, I folded it in half and stuffed it in. Immediately, I realized I'd made a terrible mistake. The form got about a foot down before getting stuck. I went and got a coat hanger, attempting to fish it out, but, of course, as always happens in these situations, only succeeded in pushing it further down. I resigned in despair and gaped: There was my precious franchise, tantalizingly close, and yet so far. What to do?
Since it was only a few days before the registration deadline I had no choice. The next day I printed out another form and mailed it in, from a mailbox on Capitol Hill. But here's where the serious, class A fraud comes in. That very same day, my excellent and competent building super had managed to get the mail chute unstuck, meaning there were now - gasp! - two identical registration forms speeding their way towards DC Board of Elections Headquarters. That's right, a fraudulent registration with my name on it. Oh noes!
Ok, so obviously this is absurd. I had no intent to defraud the DC Board of Elections, and certainly no intent nor means of voting twice, which is the actual theoretical danger being invoked here.
The faux-outrage that Republicans have marshalled over alleged voter fraud is so transparently faked, so expertly cynical its almost surreal. When John McCain accused ACORN of being on the "verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history" Obama just broke down laughing. I was too. It was the only reasonable reaction.
But sure enough, they've managed to embed the notion deeply among the right-wing base and its now bled into popular discussion. (Someone on ESPN made an ACORN, vote-fraud joke the other night, which is when I knew this had gotten out of hand).
As nearly everyone on the left has pointed out, this is an old routine. Every two years, Republicans gin up baseless accusations of "voter fraud," often directed at ACORN. The strategic imperative is simple: create a pretense that will allow them to more credibly hassle and hopefully suppress poor and minority voters.
Just to get this out of the way: in the real world, there is no such thing as voter fraud. There will be roughly as many fraudulent votes cast in this election as there were stockpiles of biological weapons in Iraq. That is to say, none. (See Dahlia Lithwick for more on this). But what about all those duplicate and obviously fake voter registration cards submitted by ACORN? you ask. They were required by law to submit them. (See Rick Hertzberg for more on this). In order to prevent tampering, state law in many places requires groups like ACORN to submit all the forms they collect, whether obviously erroneous or not.
Keep in mind that ACORN's registered somewhere around 1.3 million people this cycle. Not surprisingly, there are errors. Think of all the times you've eaten at a restaurant in your life. On the rare occasions when the restaurant totaled the tip wrong, were they trying to defraud you? Did you inform the cops of an attempted robbery? Are you suspicious of restaurants generally and view them as an enterprise committed to widespread fraud? No, of course not. You would have to be a paranoid doofus to believe that.
Indeed, the entire notion of a massive shadowy effort to subvert the election through wide-scale voter fraud has about as much credibility as the theory that the United States government perpetrated the attacks of 9/11. Like 9/11 conspiracy theories, it's easy to throw out a few tantalizing details - steel can't be melted by fire! Mickey Mouse registered to vote in Florida! - that, if introduced in the periphery, amidst the noise of daily life, can reasonably sow some vague suspicion in the mind of a generally rational person that something dark and far-reaching is being hidden from us. But if you take a step back and try to actually think through the idea in any serious fashion it falls apart faster than wet tissue paper.
Let's do it anyway. Imagine ACORN wanted to pull of a massive campaign of voter fraud. What would that look like? Well, first they'd probably want to target swing states. And if they were going to undertake the task, they'd have to set up a goal of delivering a certain amount of votes in each of these states, say, just to be conservative, 500. Now, if they were planning on stealing or buying that many votes in each swing state, it's pretty unlikely they would be sending out press releases every day publicizing their work, boasting about their voter registration numbers and inviting reporters like myself to come shadow their workers. Indeed, it's unclear why they would bother registering to many people to begin with. Just how would 1.3 million extra registrations aid them in pulling off their fraud? How do all those extra registrations help any one person vote twice?
In fact, the easiest, most direct way to commit fraud would be to find 500 people and simply pay them to register and then vote the way you want. But doing that wouldn't be aided by a widespread voter registration drive with lots of faulty registrations. Indeed, that would only draw unwarranted attention! And if some organization were to attempt some plot to pay lots of people who ordinarily don't vote to register and then vote the way they say, what are the odds that would stay secret? Approximately zero.
In other words, the ACORN-Truthers persist in believing something that on its face is manifestly and obviously absurd. But this isn't some fringe movement. This is being cynically fomented by everyone in the entire right-wing noise machine, from talk radio, to Fox News, all the way up to the actual members of the ticket, Sarah Palin and John McCain. My suspicion is that the people who are fomenting this garbage, the RNC, Sarah Palin, Fox News and others know that it's bullshit.
But for frank political reasons they are heavily invested in reducing the number of poor people and black people who vote. Black people are going to vote for Barack Obama in overwhelming, historic numbers. Poor people vote for Democrats by massive margins as well. Ergo, the Republicans want to keep them home. Simple as that. Increasing the likelihood that these voters are struck from the roles, or intimidated into staying home redounds to their benefit.
Then there's the rank and file, the members of the GOP's base who've been told by their leaders that there actually is a massive conspiracy afoot and whose belief to that effect have now so hardened that no bit of logic, reason or evidence will puncture it. This is dangerous stuff.
If Obama wins, we are going to be living with this for a while. Not only is this a deeply cynical attempt to subvert the democratic process itself, to roll back the clock to the days of yore when the franchise was a bit more, ahem, heavily restricted. It is also an attempt to deny Barack Obama, the Democratic party and the center-left a legitimate claim at state power.
In the meantime, it is, as it so often is, up to the media to call this was it is: deranged and paranoid. Anyone who implies or accuses ACORN of pulling off a fraud of historic proportions should be treated by the media with about as much deference as those who say 9/11 was an inside job.




42 Comments so far
Show Allits not just that some lazy temp who registers the dallas cowboys roster will not enable them to vote twice.
its also that ACORN reviewed the forms for the sole purpose of flagging bogus forms before they handed them over to the authorities.
anyone with a basic understanding of how the process works knows they just help voters register, they dont actually do the registering. the government does that.
but before ACORN turns it over to them for registering they try to save the latters time by flagging suspicious forms.
this scare tactic by the Republicans is ridiculous.
so how did WTC Tower7 collapse?..
there used to be two buildings that were knocked down by a couple of planes. anyway, the debris and fire from those fallen skyscrapers brought down WTC7.
I am surprised you hadnt heard of it. It happened seven years ago.
Chris, you make a perjorative statement that 911 was not an inside job with no facts to back it. Whether you believe it or not: one thing we all can say for sure: WE CANNOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THIS ADMINISTRATION TELLS US!
Here is a question: What is with this vote registration nonsense? Does the government not know who is eligible to cast a ballot? Do you have to register to receive a tax bill? Yet somehow the US government can’t remember who is and who isn’t a voting citizen, unbelievable.
jlocke123 - you don't have to register to receive a tax bill, but regardless of that, you do have to pay taxes, or at least get billed for them. That has nothing to do with the dozens of "rules" for registering to vote. If you're a felon, even if you've served your time, in some states you're denied the right to ever vote. I don't know how many other rules or regs there are, but the repugs seem to have a list a mile long.
It was my understanding that every state was mandated to have their registered voters in a computer data base by a certain date (before the '06 election, I believe), but that gets added to all the time by newly registered voters. No doubt the federal government will eventually, if it hasn't already, get it's hooks into those data bases.
I don't get it. On the one hand Hayes says, in so many words, the Repubs are a treacherous, racist, ends-justify-means group working in lock stop to steal the election. And they're doing it on a nationwide scale. But then he goes on to excuse "our government" (i.e. same group) from having anything to do with 911.
If anything, the lengths they've gone to in stealing elections in the past, as well as the current one, makes me even MORE suspicious of their involvement in 911.
Stealing votes or not allowing real candidates to participate in debates (Nader, McKinney, Barr) constitute election fraud. Democrats and Republicans repeatedly act against the interest of the majority of Americans.
It's amazing, however, how Democrats let McCain get away with accusing ACORN of voter fraud when Republicans were the ones who stole the last 2 presidential elections (with Dems' help, I might add). It speaks volumes about how similarly corrupt Dems are.
"the entire notion of a massive shadowy effort to subvert the election through wide-scale voter fraud has about as much credibility as the theory that the United States government perpetrated the attacks of 9/11"
Gee, I thought the entire voter registration fraud story was more GOP bullshit until I read this. Now I am not so sure...just as I am not sure that the US government did not have anything to do with 9/11 (like maybe stepping back and allowing it to happen?)
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
Here's a thought I had - does anyone else suspect that, just possibly, that republicans signed up fraudulently through ACORN just to discredit them?
Just a thought.
But of course the GOP has a proven trackrecord of conspiracies and dirty tricks. The convictions and resignations are piled to the sky. Democrats are pitifully absent from such endevours relying instead on idealism and trying to do the right thing. Poor things. Their foibles seem to be relegated to sexual liasons with people they aren't married to. Usually of the opposite sex, unlike Republicans.
So while Republicans are busy stealing the election, one rigged touch screen at a time Democrats are busy defending doing the right thing, ecouraging people to vote. God forbid! Have you heard about those early voters who touch the screen to vote for Obama (that Communist Muslum) and watch it flip to McCain? Nothing wrong here, move along please.
You will probably have to read about the touch screen voting machines changing
votes, our wonderful "news media" certainly will not give it much coverage. How
many votes were changed in Ohio in 2004? Did CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, or MSNBC even
mention it? Maybe we can depend on Foxx, the fair and balanced news, to cover it.
Yeah, right!
.
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=3771
July 10, 2008
Attorney General Corbett announces charges in legislative bonus investigation - 12 suspects charged in 1st phase of the investigation
.................
In Pensylvania, Democrats, during the 2004 election ,pulled illegal dirty tricks to keep Ralph Nader from getting votes.
Finally justice prevails and their tactics are EXPOSED.
.
Here's another example of a parenthetical reference to 9/11 attracting as much, or more, interest as the topic of the article.
But I don't blame the commenters-- how could I, since I'm joining them?
It is truly aggravating when some moderate/liberal/progressive "Nation" type tosses in a throwaway reference to 9/11 to demonstrate his trustworthiness and sagacity. It's code for "I'm cool-- not one of those conspiracy 'truther' nuts." Without picking at his glib and facile analogy, I suggest that he keep taking steps back and thinking things "through" before building more straw men from melted WTC steel.
Moreover, those who don't share the perspective signalled by this smug and credulous knowing "wink" to the smart, sensible readers tend to draw a negative inference about the writer's perspicacity.
Partly this response is because the article is otherwise so lame.
Agreed. If he wanted to draw an analogy to voter fraud claims by the GOP he could have said it's like saying the surge is working, Palin is qualified and ready to be president, and McCain is a war hero. Or George W. is a misunderstood president who history will verify as one of our best. Anyone claiming to KNOW 9/11 went down exactly as the "Truth Commission" says it did, that the Bush junta didn't know any more about it than Joe the plumber, isn't much of a source for proving there's nothing at all to voter fraud.
LeeAnnG
I don't know enough about 9/11 to offer an opinion about whether or not it might have been an "inside job." However, I have read and heard enough to truly believe that it is entirely possible that the Bush Administration and its supporters knew it (or something very like it) was coming and ignored it.
I'm not quite at the point where I believe Bush or even Cheney had enough power to set up the attacks and ensure they would happen. But when the president ignores a daily brief declaring that Al Qaida is determined to attack the US and that planes will be involved, it seems suspicious. When the outgoing Clinton Administration takes pains to inform the incoming Bush Administration that terrorism from Muslim extremists is an important threat, and the result is the demotion of Richard Clarke's position, this also seems suspicious.
There were, at least in retrospect, many warning signs. If the Bush cabal truly was unable to interpret them correctly, it doesn't say a whole lot about their competence or ability to "protect Murkins," does it? If not a conspiracy to commit or a purposeful turning a blind eye to the inevitable, it was a monumental screw up for which the Republicans should have been condemned rather than made into the National Security Heroes of 9/11.
The "government", Bush and Cheney specifically, had EVERYTHING to do with 911! That's my opinion anyway, with A TON of factual evidence to back it up. And I too get very frustrated with the flippant dismissal of those of us who want to get the truth officially acknowledged.
I s'pose that's why the Senate Judiciary subpoenaed Mukasey about 18 or 20 hours ago. "....if you have prior knowledge of the Administrations National Security practices and policies related to Terrorism on 9/11 including those damn[I said that not Leahy, but he wanted to say damn]same practices and policies in the treatment of "Detainees", 18 November, 10:00 am, at the Dirksen.
http://judiciary.senate.gov/resources/documents/upload/10-21-08-OLC-subpoena.pdf
BillofRights
no one has ever adequately explained why the towers collapsed and there are many unanswered questions concerning building 7. for instance: a bbc reporter announcing the collapse of building 7 while it is still clearly visible in the background; larry silverstein recorded saying, "okay, pull it." (he later went on to say that he was referring to pulling the firefighters out of the building- then why did he say 'IT'?) what a coincidence that building 7 contained all the documents relevant to the enron investigation; what a coincidence that demolition permits had been requested many times for the twin towers but denied due to the risk of toxic dust; what a coincidence silverstein just happened to have signed a lease stipulating massive settlements if the buildings were destroyed by terrorists; what a coincidence that the towers were considered a white elephant with a dismal occupancy rate; what a coincidence that a costly removal of the asbestos insulation was in the offing; what a coincidence that silverstein walked away with billions after a 20 million dollar downpayment; what a coincidence that no steel building has ever collapsed due to fire and here we have three on the same day...
we just want some answers...
For real voter fraud you have to go to Mexico in the time of the rule of the PRI (Revolutionary Institutional Party/ Partido Revolutionario Institutional) to see how they stole elections. When an election rolled around the PRI had an election fraud tactic called breakfast and the vote. Essentially they bought votes for food typically but not exclusive to breakfast and in a poor country where many campesinos are hungry you get the idea. The end result was PRI victories.
Another way the election was stolen was when, in the 1988 Mexican presidential election, the main computers tabulating the vote, suddenly crashed when the Cuauhtémoc Cárdenas, the PRD (Party of the Democratic Revolution/ Partido Revolutionario Democratico) candidate was winning and when the computers were brought back up his PRI opponent Carlos Salinas was in the lead and he won the election. I would say more about fraudulent elections but I don't want to give the Repugs any more ideas.
If ACORN wanted to commit voter fraud they could simply buy votes with cash, liquor or food and it would be hard to trace.
"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."
- Josef Stalin
"the entire notion of a massive shadowy effort to subvert the election through wide-scale voter fraud has about as much credibility as the theory that the United States government perpetrated the attacks of 9/11"
This is, by far, the most ignorant, arrogant and baseless article I've ever read on CD! Where was he when the last two elections were stolen in exactly this way? Perhaps reading the fairy tale gov't 9/11 report? Any high school student knows the "official" explanation of 9/11 is bu__sh__!!
MR. HAYES: A careful reading and evaluating of all of the evidence re 9-11, and then considering who the individual parties, particular groups and nations might be which had much to gain in collaborating to bring about the event of 9-11 and the events following can only lead to one conclusion: It was an INSIDE JOB, SIR, planned carefully over a considerable period of time.
The casual dismissal of the evidence pointing to and underscoring this conclusion by so many, who otherwise are normally bloodhounds and bulldogs when it comes to seeking and finding the truth, quite amazes me.
Yet denying ... not going there ... dissing and dismissing is self-protective and other-protective ... because the particular TRUTH OF 9/11 is one huge, nasty, squirming, squiggly, explosive can of thermite-covered worms speaking in various tongues.
And let's face it. It was one of the coldest, most calculating and cruel actions that could happen to a few thousand innocent people in a country that prides itself on its own historically constant innocence.
But we do know that for some: THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS, whether blowing up buildings or torturing prisoners or rigging voting machines.
However, as we all live and learn, it never turns out to be quite as neat and tidy as all that, as the goal posts for THE END one envisions keep getting repositioned or simply fall down eventually.
Do your homework, Mr. Hayes. You insult many of us by your obvious unfamiliarity
with the depth and breadth of evidence available on the matter of 9-11, much of which suggests far more rational conclusions than the absolutely flawed, incomplete, and often irrational official ones presented to the general public.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
CHEERS FOR ACORN! who followed the law and the rules and regs, but despite that must joust with the malevolent intentions of the true conspiracy crazies who will try to WIN ... no matter how they go about it. THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.
Yecch!
"Cee Miracles October 22nd, 2008 10:58 pm
MR. HAYES: A careful reading and evaluating of all of the evidence re 9-11, and then considering who the individual parties, particular groups and nations might be which had much to gain in collaborating to bring about the event of 9-11 and the events following can only lead to one conclusion: It was an INSIDE JOB, SIR, planned carefully over a considerable period of time. ..."
THAT HAS NOT yet been wholly ascertained, but the probability of 'inside job' is very high. This is one of the top reasons for the 9-11 investigations to be fully re-opened or -started, to work on determining the answers to the [many] unanswered questions, etcetera. The probability is so high, though, that it's not foolish to really believe that it was an 'inside job'.
=======================================
"newlight October 22nd, 2008 10:28 pm
...
... Where was he when the last two elections were stolen in exactly this way? Perhaps reading the fairy tale gov't 9/11 report? Any high school student knows the "official" explanation of 9/11 is bu__sh__!!"
I HAVE NOT read the full article, having stopped at the point wherein the author writes about the Republican "voter fraud"-prevention campaign, for that's the point that this post was initially indended for.
As for "9/11 is bu__sh__!!", NOT QUITE. While Bush was president, this just makes him an easy scapegoat! He was most surely not responsible for the 9-11 attacks, while the probability that other high-ranking political and military officials, and, I suppose anyway, corporate chiefs or at least corporate profiteers were responsible, or else very much so, is as per just above; very high. Cheney and Rumsfeld are far more likely to have been responsible than Bush Jr ... any day! He needs ear-pieces to be coached through what to say when he speaks to the public; they never do! Bush had a oil business for a short time and couldn't make this relatively small operation work; the Saudi un-royal family bailed him out. Cheney and Rumsfeld were CEO's of large corporations and for years, many! Etcetera.
Bush is in scapegoat position, while the real president has been hiding behind the "convenient" title of only v.p. for two terms. Good positioning that is for Cheney sort of strategic planning and operation! Is this the real truth? I don't know, but definitely believe it's highly probable.
The biggest or worst conspiracy theory on 9-11 is the so-called White House's "official story"; although that there were supposedly no planes, that what people saw were holographic images, whatever, is also a biggie, but long-ago debunked by the 9-11 Truth Movement (the real one) and nowhere as big as the "official story", which consists of far more bunk, lies, ... and evil.
Still need the 9-11 investigation to be re-opened though, for getting the fullest certainties possible on the attacks and why they happened, etcetera.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/100688/?page=entire
Now, for getting to the purpose of posting in this page to begin with, I wonder how really serious the Republican "voter fraud" campaign really is. Could this be yet [another] smokescreen that's been launched in order to try to FOOL the U.S. population AGAIN? I wonder, and the following article by a writer for BlackAgendaReport.com seems to be one that provides some real illustration of why I have this questioning flashing through my mind.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48141 (Margaret Kimberley)
If you go to the Uruknet main index, then there are also good and related articles by Chris Floyd and Malcolm Lagauche from the past day or two, maybe three; or, well, the following two anyway. And there'll likely be more coming.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48109 (Chris FLoyd)
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48102 (Malcolm Lagauche)
I've read the above three articles, while not the following, only having bookmarked them for reading a.s.a.p; and they're all related like the above ones are, to the point of this post. I didn't read Floyd's piece, below, except for the short quoted texts in it, and they're worth reading.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48106 (ABC News blog)
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48114 (Alan Dershowitz)
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48098 (Joe Mowrey, who says in the first paragraph that he's being sensationalist, ..., but with a critical point)
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m48079 (Chris Floyd)
And the above don't cover all of the so-called qualified foreign policy advisers of Obama's campaign and who he has said will be constituting his presidential administration, if he's elected; and the likelihood that he won't be is virtually NIL!
As I've said numerous enough times over the past several years in various Web postings, I am NEITHER RIGHT NOR LEFT, these terms and the adopters of them making no convincing sense to me. I'm [conservative], as in to restore the U.S. Constitution, which makes the international laws, conventions and treaties the U.S. govt has ratified or become co-signatory to the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND in the USA; as well as to conserve, once restored, human rights and dignity for all of humanity. I won't support liberally treating this supreme law and NEED lightly like evil and its supporters regularly do! I am not right, left, or even center; I AM ME, MYSELF and I, and we all say that we are conservative as just described.
Of course that true conservatism also applies to our natural environment, and given the above words about human rights and dignity, economics; or simply real justice and for everyone, sanity, caring (for LIFE, not money!), etcetera.
And given that I'm not "progressive" like the so-called are in the USA, I will NOT progressively abandon my position for anyone or any amount of money. To hell with that bs, spinelessness, the always go for evil, whether your flavour is lesser or greater in its "sweetness" for you, and so on! To hell with that absence of substantial [soul]!
I have been progressively very angry or upset over the past seven, actually eight, years; and while that was not the beginning of this progression, it definitely did accentuate eight and then (boosted ever more) seven years ago. And it got another boost in the fall of 2002, followed by 2003, ... etcetera. Of course the Obama campaign fans and supporters have catalyzed more of this progression of anger or rage. It "kind of" gets a person [fighting mad]!
Better this kind of progression, rather than the spineless, always-finding-excuses "lefties" provide any evidence of in terms of their so-called notions and empty words about supposedly being progressives and without saying which way they truly intend to progress. Well, maybe they have been aiming for ever more evil, in which case they've succeeded in making their sort of progress; but I sure hope they haven't had that intention and that they've only and badly, or grotesquely, been mistaken, [weak], etcetera. [Intellectuals], they make NOT!
So has Christopher Hayes never heard of The Project For The New American Century document? It's the blueprint of the illegitimate Bush regime. It's about empire building and world domination. On page 51 it speaks of needing a "new Pearl Harbor" which we had on 911 and many of the signatories have been part of the Bush regime. Jeb Bush is one of the signatories.
But of course Christopher Hayes is correct. 911 could not have been an inside job. Oh hell no. They would never do such a thing. Of course not. Because they are good "christians." They didn't need 911 to start wars or to lock people up or to shred the US Constitution with the USAPATRIOT ACT, on and on. They didn't need a phony threat to cook up the "war on terror" bull shit (which Neocon Walk on Water Obama has bought into). They didn't need 911 to make this Fraud's popularity soar to the roof when his popularity was in the gutter up until then since he had been selected by the Supreme Court. They didn't need 911 to make this Fraud in the White House appear legitimate, which he did for the first time to the gullible sheep who fell for all of Bush's nonsense and then the sheep had to drag out their flags and their phony plastic patriotism and nationalism. Ugh. 911 has been used entirely for political purposes so to me it is a given that 911 was an inside job because these scum of Earth people have used 911 as a justification for nearly everything they have accomplished. I say nearly everything because I didn't hear that they used it for the Wall Street bailout, for example.
I wonder if Hayes is also in Denial about the electronic voting machine problem? Oh never mind.
I admit I haven't been following the 9/11 "debunking" stuff, so I clicked on your link. It took me to a fantasy story about an imagined meeting that never happened. That is what you offer as a refutation of why in all history no high rise fire had ever caused the building to collapse until 9/11; then three of them did. And all straight down. And by the videos, it appears the collapse is happening below the level of the fires, and below the falling debris.
The two main towers that got hit by planes were not "normal fires" and were built with bar joists supporting the floors, so maybe there is something different that happened there. It should be analyized. Maybe the building codes should be changed to not allow bar joists in high rise buildings.
But Building 7 was a normal fire in a normal high rise built of fireproofed wide flanges. I haven't seen any rational analysis of why that building suffered sudden collapse. I've only seen stuff like what you have written, which is based on nothing but ridicule of anyone who says, "we need to look at this, something is not normal here."
That's not debunking. It's intimidation.
Let's focus on what we can prove: Karl Rove hired Michael Connell, evangelical computer tech guru to steal the 2000 and 2004 elections.
Recent revelations on how the crime went down here:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Republican_IT_consultant_subpoenaed_in_case_0929.html
Publicly debunked? Define please,,,, as in a second?, And against people who never came to an INSTANT OATMEAL conclusion, but studied ALL the evidence HIDDEN from you the JOE PUBLIC for YEARS not days. Popular Mechanics came to their conclusion in so short of a time, it was ridiculous. And what is outrageous, is the BULLSHIT scieince utilized. PHYSICS Laws can not be changed! They are UNIVERSAL! That is why so many SCIENTISTs, PHYSICS PROFESSORS, MILITARY AVIATION, SECURITY etc who are in the fields of expertise that surround the events of 9/11 say otherwise,,,,, but yet a journalist who loves to write knows these things better!
Coffeelover (USN Retired - Aviation by the way!)
"… the arguments for planted explosives and so forth have all been so thoroughly and publicly debunked … "
No they haven't been thoroughly debunked, but the debunkings have been, many times over.
Do your homework, and grow up.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/100688/?page=entire
yohocoma, you're the one who's being irrational by refusing to consider the evidence, and by believing everything Rush Limbaugh tells you to believe.
"But the arguments for planted explosives and so forth have all been so thoroughly and publicly debunked . . ."
Yes, allow me to agree with 'licketyglick' here by saying these arguments have NOT been thoroughly debunked. Far from it. They have been AVOIDED, but not debunked. In all the "debunking" sites and books I have read, they have glossed over or simply avoided all the really difficult questions brought up by the 9/11 Truth Movement, as David Ray Griffin has pointed out tirelessly in his three (now four) books on the subject.
If you have a source for better (i.e. more thorough) debunking that actually addresses those really difficult questions, I would be very willing to read it.
I read a lot.
OK, so provide a source for that "rational argument" . . . and one other than the one you provided above because that one is far from rational. As another poster also pointed out, it is nothing more than a made-up story designed to poke fun at those of us who still feel there are lots of questions that need to be answered. If there is a source that can answer them so definitively with physics and logic, please provide it. I have yet to see a logical refutation of ALL the numerous irregularities and inconsistencies in the OFFICIAL conspiracy theory.
Because, let's not have a double standard here . . . the official story of what happened on that day, by definition, IS a conspiracy theory. It just happens to be the conspiracy theory we all are supposed to believe.
This whole ACORN fiasco is right out of the Rove playbook of accusing your opponent first of what you are planning to do so that when the opponent complains after you do it, most people think they are 'just saying it' out of pique; at best, it makes your opponent look like a whiner and covers your own nefarious activities; at worst, works as another 'he said, she said' that becomes a wash in the average voter's mind. (The despicable John Fund started this 'Dem vote fraud' nonsense years ago, before the 2004 election, but the GOP didn't need it -- the weak-kneed Kerry didn't bother fighting the obviously-rigged Ohio results.)
Rove also counts on the Big Media having the attention span of a gnat and no patience with subtle details. Those reporters who might venture into committing acts of real journalism are quickly brought into line by their Republican bosses -- they have business with the FCC and other govt. agencies, and they sure do love those tax cuts for the rich -- or else Rove and his powerful friends make phone calls to get the offenders fired. (Most mass media types were so intimidated by what happened to Dan Rather and his producers at CBS over the Bush Air Guard story that this kind of strong-arm tactic isn't even needed these days. As Orwell once observed re the mainstream press, "Circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks his whip, but the really well-trained dog is the one that turns his somersault when there is no whip." We now have kennels of carnival hounds performing their tricks in America's newsrooms, no whips necessary.)
The only saving grace this time around is that Rove's nasty tactics didn't work in 2006, nor in the special Congressional elections in GOP districts in Illinois, Louisiana and Mississippi.
We are seeing the final death of this horrific negative-campaign monster -- created by Nixon's dirty tricksters, perfected by Lee Atwater, and adopted with a few new kinks by Rove -- played out in the Palin-McCain fiasco, a proof of that Euripides quote: "Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad."
And is there any doubt that what is destroying McCain and Palin is their own wingnut insanity?
Unfortunately, there are still enough GOP conmen and swindlers in power around the nation to take a 380 electoral vote landslide for Obama and scam it down into a 10 vote win, but a win is a win and the Era of Karl Rove is over.
The one thing that the previous 32 posters agree upon is that the US government, federal reserve and corporations are being run by criminals and too many US voters are oblivious to that fact.
Wow, check out the interview with Mark Crispin Miller on DemocracyNow! yesterday. He basically lays out the goods describing how the 2004 election was stolen by Karl Roves radical Christian computer engineer guru Mike Connell, through the use of some loopy computer architecture.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/22/votes
The interview is 20 minutes long... and is jam packed with Rove's worst nightmares.
"AMY GOODMAN: How? (was the election stolen)
MARK CRISPIN MILLER: Well, basically, they use a kind of architecture that’s called Man in the Middle, and it involves shunting election returns data through a separate computer somewhere else. This is something that computer criminals do all the time with banks. Spoonamore explains that the Man in the Middle setup is extremely effective and basically undetectable as a way to change election results.
Now, the scariest thing is that Connell told Spoonamore that the reason why he has helped Bush-Cheney steal these elections for the last eight years has been to save the babies. See? We have to understand that there’s a very powerful component of religious fanaticism at work in the election fraud conspiracy. We saw a little bit of that in Greenswald’s film, where Paul Weyrich was talking about how we don’t want people voting. "
skidog
Lame article.The truth about 911 is we DON'T know the truth.
Building 7 for me is the deal-breaker.Droping at free-fall speeds into it's footprint,caused by a fire,YEA RIGHT.