If you are not prepared to kill you can't teach? How very strange. If you take your oath seriously you'll be fired for it? Interesting, and a support for one of my earlier arguements that the oath of allegiance has become nothing more than toilet paper. Something you're expected to repeat by rote and not to think about, not consider any implication that stems from that oath. Blind allegiance is stupid.

how about our president, did he swear to defend the constitution? he is not doing a good job, he should be fired too!!!

What can I say? California is run by a corporate Republican governor. I think Kurt Vonnegut put his finger on it when he wrote Hocus Pocus.

Don't forget: You're either with us or against us. If you're against us, you're most likely a terrorist. Never mind that at least 65% of this country and probably over 90% of the rest of the world are against this current administration. And, we all know, the best way to beat terrorism is pre-emption or some other form of punishment (recall the Plame case).

This is an unrepentant, genocidal, Aryan Slave Empire. Non-violent Quakers may be given a temporary pass to live here but we want KILLERS teaching our children, hypocritical Xrstian blood drinkers who can provide the example young children need to get the "right" values. We all know those values: The Strong Rule, the Weak deserve their servitude. And if you win, you get to lie about it and sneer at your victims. America. Some might ask if such a country deserved to live.

Ms. Kearney-Brown would be welcome at any time in my home, should the need arise, without any "Oaths", violent or otherwise. The violence we need here is the violence of the sculptor's chisel & hammer exposing the Life within the stone.

Even the Military has a place for those who do not believe that killing is right. Conscientious objectors were placed in non-combat areas during time of war.
It appears that the East Bay School sys. needs to review it's regulations to accommodate those who's beliefs do not conform.
skippyagogo41: I like the comment "If you are not prepared to kill you can't teach?" It shows how far some school boards are prepared to go to keep it's employees in line with the attitude of the community. No room for variance here, all conform to higher authority, Heil!!!

commandment 11:
thou shalt possess no view not endorsed by the current administration

How disgusting this country has become. It doesn't deserve anyone's blind loyalty. What are we? A nation of lemmings?

Ms Marianne Kearney-Brown is a true American hero. The Quakers are one of the three religious groups who understand and practice the teachings of the Christed One who lectured against violence and aggressive behavior.
Since when are schoolteachers required to take 'loyalty oaths' to defend the Constitution of the United States? When the 'entire' Congress of the United States, starting with the coward-in-chief on down, has VIOLATED their "oath of allegiance" to defend the Constitution of the United States, starting with the un-American, un-Constitutional signing of the so-called Patriot Act and every piece of legislation the Bush/Cheney Crime Family have passed since. How dare the school board fire her for taking a NOBLE STAND for her beliefs.

With excessive violence in Holywood movies and tv shows and real-life violence commited across America each day in our schools, this honorable woman should have been praised for her position.

It's not over yet, Marianne, you have a lot of support.

"But Hill said Kearney-Brown could sign the oath and add a separate note to her personal file that expressed her views."

I think this is an acceptable compromise. I mean it's ridiculous that the administration even cared, but that's what authorities do; they indiscriminately pick on employees for minor infractions mattering on their mood. Keeping this in mind the separate note compromise seems fine. We all know the oath doesn't mean anything anyway.

The tinier the mind,
The bigger the rule.
If you won't kill,
You can't teach school.

The packing of the Supreme Court with idealogues of such stirling qualities as Thomas, Scalia, and Roberts sends strong signals to even the tiniest, narrowest, most biggoted minds that this kind of behavior is not only now acceptable but may soon be completely legal. It only needs testing and appealed through the layers to that august body of black-robed stalwarts.

I almost did not read this article but the first sentence CSU East Bay? That is my back yard. I cannot believe that there will not be a ciynter movement. CSU students have been resisting a number of free speech issues lately. Now we need teachers and those of us not in the CSU system to help. BTW Arnold won't be running again - now that his talk is of closing tax loopholes (yacht tax anyone) as well as slashing public services (CA budget crisis, again). All this because of flim flammers holding public office. Decent people paying the price for moneymongers. I'll go search for what is being done to fight back.

TheMan - in this situation compromise is not the point. The point is death of the constitution by a million tiny blows. Each tiny blow people say, it could be worse, this one isn't so bad.

I have to sign non-disclosure agreements all the time.

Very often I need to modify the wording to comply.

CSU should fire their lawyer.

A bigger question is why the teacher needs to sign any loyalty oath.

Get rid of the pledge--a senseless, robotic recitation of what? A mindless mantra.

Now out of a job for not supporting the state when the state supports war and mayhem. Better take George Bush's job away than hers. Our state exists to protect private property and to enhance and enable the powers of the rich. Oligarchy, so to speak.

She joins the greats--Thoreau,Socrates, etc in defying the state

TheMan February 29th, 2008 12:40 pm:

"But Hill said Kearney-Brown could sign the oath and add a separate note to her personal file that expressed her views."-"I think this is an acceptable compromise."

"We all know the oath doesn't mean anything anyway."

TheMan, your oath of allegiance to your country doesn't mean anything to you? So the "separate note" in her personal file would mean, what? Less than nothing?

Believing in non-violence seems to mean something to this teacher, Marianne Kearney-Brown. She also seems to believe in the importance of being a good teacher. What lesson would be gleaned from her being a hypocrite and lying her way through California State University East Bay's oath?

I hope she finds good employment at an institution that values truth, peace, and her dedication to her calling.

She signed the oath but made a signing statement.
Isn't that what George Bush has done hundreds of times in violation of the separation of powers.

The real outrage is that she should have to sign an oath at all.

Just out of curiosity, how does this affect foreign teachers? I know you have them, are they required to swear fealty to the usa? Doesn't that make them traitors if they've not forsworn their native lands and become citizens of the usa?

The Quakers have been a bright beacon of sanity in our American world of ruthless violence since day one (and before). Remember, it was the Quakers who were in the heroic forefront of the fight against slavery before the Civil War.
Their contemporary secular movement for international justice is the Friends International Committee, which works as actively against Israeli racism today as its forebearers did against Confederacy racism 200 years ago. They - the Quakers - are the light unto all peoples and nations.

I'm aghast. This seems a clear separation of church and state issue.

I once prepared an adult education class for a school district. We agreed on payment, schedule, wording of the blurb in the catalogue, etc. Then the admin person called me to schedule my fingerprinting and drug test, claiming it was required of anyone who had regular access to the school, either during class, or after hours. I had been doing the same course for two other school districts in the area, without having to go through anything but an interview. I said, "No thanks!" and never applied to teach there again.

These things, along with non-sense like No Child Left Behind testing, are because we have lost the ability to evaluate performance. It's not really hard to tell a good teacher from a poor one, and it has nothing to do with their urine or a printed form they must sign unaltered.

How about mandatory polygraph tests? Aren't people who sign such forms without their full commitment, just to get the job, more of a threat than those who honestly state their legitimate objections and conditions, based on Constitutionally protected freedom of religion?

It seems to me, that to not state your objection in such a case belies the signing of the form. Perhaps any Quaker who signs the form without modifying it should be fired because of perjury. Perhaps Quakers should just not be allowed to work anywhere.

Marianne, you have my full, unqualified support.

When I was employed at West valley College in Saratoga, CA, I never had to sign a loalty oath--NEVER.

This doesn't surprise me at all.
The learning institutions in this country are starting to question Evolution. There is discussion about teaching Intelligent Design now.
We have a university president (Lee Bollinger) that is a fascist bigot. He openly insulted the leader of another nation while on a goodwill visit to the USA yet he is STILL president of the institution.
Now Ms. Kearney-Brown is being fired because she won't pledge to commit acts of violence. This should be a message to the conscientious objectors out there. See site: http://www.objector.org/
As America continues it's descent into a fascist thocracy, these type of rights violations will continue.

Instead of posting your comments here, how about sending them to the President of Cal State U. - East Bay?

Contact info:

Mohammad "Mo" H. Qayoumi, President
California State University East Bay
Mo.Qayoumi@csueastbay.edu
Phone: 510-885-3877

Before reading the above posting by agreatpoem, I phoned the University and asked to whom I could write about this incident. Here's what I was told:

James Cimino
Asst. Vice-President of Human Resources
California State University East Bay
25800 Carlos Bee Blvd.
Hayward, CA 94542-3000

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to contact both Cimino and Qayoumi.

Of course it's disgusting and wrong. It is also more common than many would suppose. Loyalty oaths in education employment are widespread.

It's not so much that governing boards of universities want their teachers to kill; they just wish to condition everyone into uncritical acceptance of authority. To entrenched power structures, that is more important than education.

She's a Quaker? How come she isn't sitting in a stock and shunned, or flogged?

Suggestion:
Every other state employee who has signed this same oath should submit a statement withdrawing their previous oath and submitting an equally modified one in solidarity with Marianne Kearney-Brown.

Solidarity – the only weapon against fascism.

Ironically, she should have simply refused to sign it at all.

The California Constitution and current case law support refusals to sign. It's happened in community colleges before: teacher refuses to sign, school refuses to hire, teacher sues, wins, school hires them without the loyalty oath. As I recall, this was a first year law school question on an exam for a Const. law course.

Either the attorneys involved are charlatans or someone's re-inventing things and not being called on it.

There are two things that disturb me here and I'm not sure which of them disturbs me the most.

First, as many have already pointed out in this thread. Why does an American citizen have to sign a loyalty oath to hold a job? This is crapola from the 50's and Sen. McCarthy!

Second, when did this Orwellisk term, "Human Resource" get slipped into the language? -- the first time I heard it was in 1995 as the title of a module in the SAP business management package and it sent a shiver down my spine...

This is an incrediable country. Next year we will spend three quarters of a TRILLION dollars on the military budget alone; and still, politicians want us to be so fearful, that a 50 year old woman must assure us she is not going to overthrow the government of California or the U.S. What a symbol of what this country has come to.

P.S. 'Too bad the framers of thee Constitution did not have to sign such a statement before they illegally replaced the Articles of Confederation.

KEM PATRICK

"She's a Quaker? How come she isn't sitting in a stock and shunned, or flogged?"

Do you know anything about anything? You are mistaking Quakers for Puritans.

Wow... that's insanity. Really, what does the oath mean? Not a whole lot really. The government officials, military officers and the judiciary do not seem to take their oath seriously... therefore, it's irrelevant.

Good one Ken. lol

As a Quaker I wish I could urge us all to march on California to defend this honorable teacher's act. What she did was something we Quakers have done for centuries, because it is required by our beliefs. The legal counsel at Cal State East Bay is simply wrong. Maybe Jerry Brown will intervene to insure justice. Long live American freedom of conscience!

where can people who want to help this woman send their contributions?

Mohammad "Mo" H. Qayoumi, President
California State University East Bay
Mo.Qayoumi@csueastbay.edu
Phone: 510-885-3877

Dear Mr. "Mo"

Look on "Quaker Teacher Fired For Changing Loyalty Oath" it vas moved to me I musst toldt to you how I am feeling on dis.

So? Vot aboot dis "loyalty oat"? Yah, ve sign vot ve are toldt ve musst sign, und dot's all dere iss to say aboot dat!

Mein gross-vater, he verked mit Herr Busch's gross-vater in der Vaterland. You musst be avare dat Herr Prescott Busch vas found GUILTY OF AIDING AND COMFORTING der Enemies, right in der mittel ov der WWII, yah? Und even so, he vas denn elekted as Senator von Connecticut. May be so even so he vas a CONVICTED WAR CRIMINAL he musst haff signed dat "loyalty oath" nicht war? Yah I tink.

So! Main gross-vater toldt me dot vot effer der Fuhrer tells, den dot iss vot you musst do, yah?

You know dey said dot vas der LAW dot dey musst round up dem Choos und so dey musst do vot dey vas toldt to do, and dot vas all legal, yah?

Too bad dis kindt ov a reason vas not okay for defendants in Nuremburg, yah?

I tink may be so you hire back dat lady mit apology und fire also your kvack lawyers, yah? Oderwise may be so you get a gutt republicrat Judge wenn dat lady sue you from off your pants, und dot gutt Judge vill toldt you okay der Law isst der Law und dot lady she is lucklich dot you don't shoot her in de head.

Yah, it iss lone some at der top, Mo, nicht war?

long tex

cc: common dreams dot org

Being forced to sign a loyalty oath in order to teach is repugnant. Theoretically, a university or college could ask that you state you have never been a card-carrying member of the CP, or the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, or any other group and get away with it. If everyone refused to sign these disgusting documents, that would throw a monkey wrench into the system, just as it did during the Vietnam war, when many draftees refused to sign oaths.

Kem Patrick:

Quakers never did shunning, stocks and flogging. That's that Boston cult. Puritans or Pilgrims. Witches! The neocons might want to waterboard her!

You are assuming that when they ask you to "support" and "defend" that they are asking you
to take up a rifle and shoot whomever the authorities command. "Defend = Physical Violence". Please.
"That group of people are challenging the constitution! Shoot them!"
Defense of the constitution for most people involves
intellectual and verbal skills in the public venues not brute physical force in the classroom.
For most citizens (non-military), swearing to defend the constitution means non-violent action.
I don't see any problem with the form she was asked to sign.

Here is a profile from www.calstate.edu on the attorney, Eunice Chan, who, according to the Chronicle article said that modifying the oath "is very clearly not permissible". It contains contact information:

EUNICE C. CHAN

Profile:

Eunice Chan joined the Office of General Counsel in February of 2007. Previously, she worked as a Deputy City Attorney for the San Diego City Attorney's Office and focused her practice in the areas of municipal and public agency law and redevelopment. From 2001 to 2005, Ms. Chan worked as a litigation associate at Epport, Richman & Robbins LLP. She has responsibility for the Cal Poly Pomona and California State University, East Bay campuses and is on the Business and Finance Team.

Education:

B.A., Pomona College (1998)

J.D., University of Southern California (2001)

Office:

Telephone No. (562) 951-4500

Fax No. (562) 951-4956

E-mail Address: echan@calstate.edu

Loyal Americans don't need to learn math anyway, right? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I just called the president's office and was immediately switched immediately with no comment to Public relations who spouted the 'official line and hung up on me.

I sent e-mail. let's see what happens.

in Islam there is a hadith that states ' there shall be no compulsion in religion'.

Somehow forcing someone to deny her faith for a job seems to fall in that category of compulsion.

curmudgeon99,

I'm sorry, but I don't see where she was asked to deny or compromise her faith.

If children, regardless of their religious or non religious beliefs, are forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance, a teacher should be forced to sign a loyalty oath. It is only fair. I remember the few Jehovah Witness kids in my school sitting in the back of the room in silence when the rest of us pledged. I still squirm when I think about how we badgered those kids. I am ashamed, but at 15 I didn't have the courage to stand up to peer pressure. I am thankful for all the Quakers who do.

Does anyone know whether other nations require their school children to worship their national flag and whether they require loyalty oaths of their teachers and / or other employees?

I would be surprised if such practices are not mainly found in countries with repressive governments--those that torture prisoners, hold prisoners indefinitly without charge, commit capital punishment, stifle freedom of expression and assembly, hold fake elections, etc.

The sad thing about this is that it occurred, not at Halliburton or KBR, but at a university. I hope the teacher hires a good lawyer and gives the school a civics lesson.

imfedup,

To be forced to sign the oath as originally written is denial of her religious belief. It is compulsion to require her to do so in violation of her beliefs.

what don't you understand about that?

If all the employees of California State University East Bay sign the oath then it seems quite clear that the person who terminated Ms Kearney-Brown's employment broke their own oath by failing to apply the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I guess there is no freedom of religion at CSU East Bay and Ms Kearney-Brown should easily win a suit for wrongful dismissal due to abrogation of her Constitutional rights.

FASCISM

COULD IT BE ANY MORE OBVIOUS?

Yeah I know some thngs ~Kendpotter~. For example your're a big mouth nuker fan with no sense of humor and one who thinks DU is not a problem. But I do like to joke around sometimes and not get to serious about everything. So, I don't take your usual barbs and snide comments against me seriously.

So a teacher is fired for not properly signing an oath of allegiance..........and what of all those who have signed this oath yet haven't taken a stand for the Constitution? Isn't this Rep. Pelosi's state......you know 'Impeachment is off the table Nancy'? What are the students to learn from this? Say whatever or just outright lie to keep your job?

It seems to be getting worse folks.......how many of you feel like I do that we don't have a legally
sitting government? Yes, they are sitting in the offices, but by what right, certainly not the Constitution. Maybe, might makes right....we've got the power and the money and the guns so who needs the Constitution according to George it's just an old piece of paper anyway. Seems strange they come for the teacher who refuses to lie as they have. But, maybe, if we had really been paying attention it wouldn't seem so strange just the further progression of what upon awaking will be the nightmare of what was once America land of the free and home of the brave no more.