Breemass, your posts have been wonderful. I hope you're considering becoming a writer of some sort, because you choose your words thoughtfully and create a poignant, well-structured argument that really elicits good responses.

There seems to be a lot of good debate going on here, and I feel I've learned something by just browsing the comments. Yet in all of the talk I have failed to see anyone really address the issue of the Israeli government pumping untreated sewage into Palestinian land. If this is true, then every single poster should take issue with that. There's nothing to justify or rationalize such a policy. For an elderly woman and a child to drown in literal shit, and then have everyone focus on whether or not they're pro-Israel or not (what do these terms even mean?) is to miss the horror of such an occurrence. We can't be blind supporters or deniers and allow ourselves to get tangled up in something which does nothing to change the situation. We must say there are things which cannot be allowed. Merely arguing over whether or not Israel was created unfairly hampers the changes we can make today. Good or bad, it happened. While we should not forget the circumstances of its creation, if we are more caught up in debate over who did what when, then we basically are ignoring the incredible suffering of real, living people. Those are the ones who we need to be concerned with.

What a load of crap...

I don't care how well said, Israeli sewage is where I draw the line.

BreeMass Said: except in course in the echoes of idiots like elmysterio who deny any of it ever happened or that it was the fault of the Jews

That's a lie there liar... I NEVER said it didn't happen... What I said is ask yourself WHY it happened... and then my other point is that, in my opinion, the Jews have squandered any sympathy they may had by becoming JUST like the Nazis.

Also, calling me an idiot doesn't do anything to prove your point. I have JUST as much right to my opinion as you do... So fuck you.

While it is true that Israel like many other countries has problems with water pollution, there are some encouraging signs of progress towards some solutions to this problem. There are joint Israeli / Palestinian teams working in coopeeration to clean up the rivers.

http://www.ejil.org/journal/Vol4/No4/art5-03.html

The author of this article ignores these recent positive developments. Hopefully this progress will continue with even more cooperation between Israel and the Palestinians, until all of their differences are settled peacefully.

She has provided the one lonely spot in the Middle East where gay people are not hounded and hanged, and where women can approach equality.

Not true when only 1/2 the women in the population are given equality and the other occupation and oppression. Turkey actually has a good track record on women's rights and Arab countries like Tunisia have made enormous strides.

What a load of crap this article is.

dcbeltway ---- Did you read the entire article?

The author assumes that the Israel-Palestine question can be addrewsede rationally. The creation of the State of Israel was not a rational decision. Zionism is not a rational philosophy. Once one predicates the creation of a nation-state on the belief that "God" gave the land to the Jewish people and anyone living there who are not Jewish are interlopers, then one has dispensed with ratioality.

I don't think the Israeli government on a very large number of the Israeli people want peace. I think they want the Palestinians, including the Israeli-Palestinians, to go away. I think many Israelis are prepared to exsterninate them, but are only restrained by being accused of genocide. If they can poison the Palestinians to death, then they can claim that it was the inability of the Palestinians to develop an adequate suwage system that caused their death. That Israel prevents that from happening is irrelevant.

A second dilemma is that the pro-Israel Jewish people in the U.S. pretty much have our Congress under their control with respect to America's Middle Easst policy. Thee is no reason for them to have to comprmise on this issue as long as they are winning.

The third dimension of this is that pro-Zionist Jewish people have an extraordinary amount of contempt for the Arab people generally. Read Leon Uris' book "Haj" each page drips with contempt for the Arabs. They are regarded as a people who are backward, ignorant, ad incapable of rational thinking. That prior to the dispersal of the Palestinian people, they were the most educated people in the Middle East is irrelevant. They are not the most educated today, and they will never again be the most educated while they remain under the control of Israel.

Lastly, the people who hold political power in Israel today are the right-wing religious Jews and the Russian Jews, both of whom are well familiar with what Stalin did to control the Russian people, and I don't think they would hesitate to use Stalinist meathods for a second.

So, how do we deal with a conflict that has no rational basis to in in the first place? How do Arab and Israeli people, as well as progressive Western people discuss this question if there are no shared common logic or presumptons.

Maybe the Arabs in the Middle East generally should be exterminated and be done with it. Then the Jewish people can build their Jewish state in peace. Eventually, especially with one's ability to control media, everyone will forget that Arabs ever occuped the Middle East. One should never underestimate the capacity of the American people to feel bigotry toward almost anything. Once they are told that Arabs are evil, or the anit-Christ they will believe it and accept the inflicting any amount of torture on Arabs.

Good luck.

"Voice of America - 2 hours ago
By Robert Berger Five members of a Palestinian family and a passerby have been killed by Israeli tank fire in the Gaza Strip."

I see that the Jews are celebrating Israel's birthday with yet another ritual slaughter of someone else's women and children. Is there no end to this bloodlust?

Cadabra - I think most of your post is on point, but I would like to point out that a great majority of Israelis in every poll taken over the last few years favor a return to peace talks, even under fire. Just as in the US, Iran and many other countries, what the government and the people want are often two very different things. Also, as a Jewish woman, I appreciate you making a distinction between Zionist Jews and the rest of us.

Whatfools - I am not one to level hysterical anti-Semite charges against anyone critical of Israel and in fact am very critical of Israel myself. But I cringe to read your blanket statement about "the Jews" celebrating with violence. Can you be more specific? Perhaps by using the "Israelis" or, even more specific "the Israeli government"? It would make Jews like myself a lot more comfortable standing beside a critic such as yourself to demand justice and peace for Palestinians and Israelis.

"The Israelis say: if we let all three million come back, we will be outnumbered by Palestinians even within the 1967 borders, so Israel would be voted out of existence."
______________________

Hari has written a compassionate and thoughtful article that unfortunately offers only illusory solutions. Jewish victims of injustice and ethnic cleansing founded a nation based on injustice and ethnic cleansing; the conditions of Israel's creation sowed the seeds of its own destruction. Ergo a two-state solution based on the '67 borders is no solution at all; it would only perpetuate Israel's original sin and cause unending regional instability.

Israel cannot remain a Jewish state, i.e. a racist theocracy, and survive. That is the secret Israel is suppressing and must ultimately face. The only just--and therefore viable--solution, is to let Palestinian refugees return to Israel proper if they choose, and let the current Israeli theocracy be voted out of existence, hopefully to be replaced by a secular democracy with equal rights for all races and religions. If Israelis assimilate, the Zionist project will come to a peaceful end.

The alternative is an eventual nuclear holocaust in the ME. Israelis must choose their fate.

Whatfools - I wanted to spend a moment on the idea of "bloodlust". Please don't mistake my explanation as condoning Israel's actions, but at least as far as many Israelis and Jews in general, particularly here in the US, the narrative of victimhood and constant danger run very deep. Jews have suffered terribly as a community at the hands of numerous entities over the years. The formation of Israel came after decades of violent oppression in Russia and, of course, during the Holocaust. A great number of Jews living in the US have theirs and their children passports on them at all time, even in a country that whole-heartedly supports the Jewish State. The sense of persecution and constant danger runs very deep within the Jewish community, and for good historical reason.

Now, of course, the danger is not so present or imminent and many Jews have gone from being the oppressed to the oppressors as in the case of, particularly in the case of right-wing Israelis and a great proportion of American Jews. But the psychology of centuries of persecution can go a long way to expressing the "bloodlust" you mentioned. Again, I'm not trying to condone it, just going for a little illumination into the collective mindset that has led to the tragedy that is known as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict...

So now the persecuted are the persecutors, and they can justify it by the past. It seems to me like the cycle will continue. Most Jews that I know are otherwise very rational people, but many tend to become irrational in a discussion like this.

What I see is that an oppressed people were given some of the most highly prized (for religious reasons at least) land on the planet and then they go around thrusting sticks at their neighbors; you know, the ones that they displaced.

BreeMass asks that we make a distinction between Jews and Israelis. The line is getting blurred. Many I know, if asked whether Judaism is a religion or nationality, respond "Both!" That, of course, is rediculous. So an Israeli born Jew moves to chicago and marries a catholic who converts him. Is he now a catholic Jew? what about his children? Half jewish? Perhaps Italian Jewish. I think it means something different than an Italian Jew.

Are we so P.C. that we can't say "He's a jew?" Is it now "He's jewish" or "He's a jewish person" or "Jewish people" instead of Jews. Just wondering.

"How did a Jewish state founded 60 years ago with a promise to be "a light unto the nations" end up flinging its filth at a cowering Palestinian population?"

Israel flings shit because it IS shit. The fact that it throws its sewage at the Palestinians is the perfect metaphor for what it is as a nation. How can a state -- pseudo-state -- be a light unto the nations when it is founded on genocide and theft? The very same question can rightly be asked about the United States, the so-called beacon of the world, which was equally founded on genocide and theft. The U.S. and Israel are so close because they are the same in spirit, in essence. And when the Palestinians are all gone, which ultimately they will be, Israel will settle down in the former land of Palestine and be content...for a while. And then it will begin casting hungry looks around at its Arab neighbors. Its DESPISED Arab neighbors. It will want more land. And the U.S. will support Israel in its wars of conquest. While I doubt it will turn out this way, I wouldn't be surprised if the crazy neocons in both Israel and the U.S. dream of a day when between the two of them they own the whole Middle East. There is no limit to the insanity of the neocons of these two countries.

There is no way for Israel to survive except by full genocide of the Palestinians. There isn't room for both of them. Since the other Arab nations haven't interfered so far I doubt they'll do anything to stop Israel now, and in any event Israel can always threaten to nuke anybody. Though come to think of it, the Middle East is a pretty small piece of real estate, and the fallout would surely hit Israel too -- would they risk using nukes so close to home?

It's ugly any way you look at it.

"She has provided the one lonely spot in the Middle East where gay people are not hounded and hanged, and where women can approach equality."

I am not sure how women can be equal in a country that does what is written in this article:

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-31536420080122

About gay men I am not very sure too. A country that is built on religion cannot approach such issues fairly.

Qbldsmoove - the term "Jew" or "the Jews" often gets thrown around as an epithet and therefore, particularly when it prefaces a statement about the celebration of violence, makes me somewhat uncomfortable, I admit. Saying somebody is Jewish has different implications than saying somebody is a Jew. I'm not trying to be PC, just expressing a preference. I'm not a Jew, I am a person who is Jewish. Being Jewish is an important part of my identity but isn't the sum total of who I am? Do you see what I mean? And of course, this is one Jewish girl's opinion, but then I'm a girl who also cares about language.

Also, Judaism is a lot of things - a religion, a cultural identity - but it is not a nationality and whoever is saying that it is is, quite simply, mistaken. Israelis are citizens of Israel. Most Israelis are Jewish, to be sure, but not all or even most Jewish people are Israeli. I'm Jewish by religion and ethicity, but American by nationality.

yvmore - The majority of Israelis are secular Jews, but Israeli politics get dominated by, as the article pointed out, a minority of ulra-Orthodox Jews. Reform and Conservative Jews generally believe in gender equality and orientation equality; in fact Reform Judaism has both of these things written in their charter.

This is one of the constant tensions in Israel, between secular and orthodox Jews - like the US, a very influential vocal minority has a disproportionate amount of power over politics and government. And, like ths US, it's a very tough issue to resolve. Unfortunately, unlike the US, this is all tangled up with the issue of Palestine and Palestinians so it brings the internal struggles to bear on the external issues, although I can see a parallel in the Iraq situation.

Jews in Palestine.

Europeans in North America.

The same imperialist lies: no on lives there, it's "God's will" that you occupy these lands.

And then - what to do with these "savages" who oppose "God's will"? - genocide, of course.

Isn't Western "civilization" great?

"The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war."

Sounds chillingly close to Hilter's "Final Solution"

Israelis think their shit dont stink...

"Vast stagnant pools of waste are being held within fragile dykes across the strip, and rotting. Last March, one of them burst, drowning a nine-month-old baby and his elderly grandmother in a tsunami of human waste"

Fasce it, we are ALL drowning in Israeli shit, from the US AIPAC Congress to Iraq

Breemass said: Jews have suffered terribly as a community at the hands of numerous entities over the years. The formation of Israel came after decades of violent oppression in Russia

Bullshit. Yes, there has been Jewish oppression... but why? Why were the Jews 'oppressed'? Why is there "anti-semetism"? Think about it. The "Jews" have cause just as much trouble as they have received. I will NOT tolerate any more of the Oh the poor Suffering Jews type talk... it's bullshit.

And yet again to my mind, this brings up the Warsaw ghetto. There are parallels between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto.

Please, present any counterpoints or further support to this idea, I want to learn more.

Thank you for your posts, BreeMass. I appreciate the distinctions you draw. I am most thoroughly anti-Zionist and anti-AIPAC and yet absolutely NOT anti-Semitic.

Just as I don't wish to be held responsible for the sins of the American fathers (slavery, genocide against native peoples, wars including the current one in Iraq) I feel for good-hearted Jews the world over who embrace tikkun (sp) and peace and can only watch in horror as their Israeli brethren cheer over over the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinians.

elmysterio - Are you kidding me? Does the phrase "blame the victim" mean anything to you? Obviously those pesky Palestinians must be to blame for their own oppression by the Israeli government. I suppose it goes without saying that Africans were to blame for their enslavement? And, by the same token, those damn Jews are to blame for their own extermination at the hands of Nazis - been reading Mein Kampf lately? Or just the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Let's see, the Holocaust, pogroms in Russia and throughout Eastern Europe that occured periodically for centuries. To be fair, the oppression suffered by Jews over the centuries has been directed primarily at Ashkenazi Jews in Europe; Sephardi Jews living under Muslim rulers were generally free from religiously- or ethnically-based oppression.

I understand that oppression doesn't justify the oppression of others, but you do no favors to anybody when you engage in blatantly deny history.

"There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face . . . for ever".

Priestess - the parallels you draw to the history of slavery in America is indicative of exactly what I was trying to express. As a young American Jew, I only know about oppression through the stories of my family and I've never really experienced it myself (except in course in the echoes of idiots like elmysterio who deny any of it ever happened or that it was the fault of the Jews). But understanding the history and the mindset is key to understanding the actions and fears of many in the Jewish world. Just as people including American Jews and Israelis do themselves a disservice by chalking up Palestinian violence to ingrained irrationality without exploring the root causes, so do Israeli detractors when they dismiss the collective psychological effects of centuries of oppression leading up to and including the Holocaust.

I too am anti-AIPAC, although to be honest I can't truly consider myself anti-Zionist since I support Israel's right to exist. However, I firmly reject the Zionist tenet of "a land without people for a people without land" a desperately wish that my forefathers had made different choices for the Jewish people as a whole. I do indeed embrace tikkun and watch in horror as my fellow Jews engage in what I consider debasement of our most holy ideals. I advocate in the US for a just resolution but despair at ever seeing one...

TZ - You are correct in seeing parallels between Gaza and Warsaw, although, in all fairness, even at their worst the Israelis are not engaging in the unapologetic slaughter of Palestinians. To be sure, the actions of the Israeli government may, over the long term, have the same effect and Israelis are certainly engaging in war crimes against the Palestinians, I cannot in all conscience compare the Israelis to Nazis.

I personally think a better comparison is to apartheid South Africa and the bantustans on which black South Africans were forced to live to make room for white South Africans. Palestinians' movements among the bantustans (the West Bank and Gaza) is limited and tightly controlled; borders are controlled by Israel, along with seaboard, airspace and resources. Their services are limited, their water and electricity is diverted for use by Jewsish-only settlements (although settlements don't technically exist in Gaza anymore).

Again, I can see the parallels with Warsaw, but I think South Africa is a better example. You mentioned you want to learn more, but I don't know exactly what information you are looking for. If you'd be more specific, I'd be happy to elaborate!

ACC 2:14pm

Ah! Good point- Israel and US do indeed share the same "beginnings"~ genocide and racism. What an ugly world to be forced to live in. God knows I want out.

Israel--where a Brooklyn Jew can claim ownership of land that was in native hands for generations. That they are too cheap to treat their own sewage only reinforces the negative stereotype of Jews. What a pity...for the Palestinians.

It's time to force dual citizens of US/Israel to choose their country--no person can be fully loyal to two countries. I suspect many of dual citizenship to elevate Israel above the US, and the only solution is to show them the door and not allow them US citizenship. As one sympathetic to Judaism, I have to say the time to stop the horrible imbalance in relations with Israel is now, before Jews are once again scapegoated and persecuted. Only this time, it will be in the US, where Jews consider themselves safe. The Christian Zionists will lead the way...todays friends are tomorrow's enemies. Wake up AIPAC, before it's too late...

Breemas,

The Jews brought it on onto themselves in WW2. Read Benjamin Friedman's speech in 1961 to see the explanation of how the jews back-stabbed its own protectors...not once,but many times over in their history. And sad to say, but the next holocaust will come, but not by the hands of the Muslims or Arabs, but the same fascists-mentality folks that run this country now.

There are so many things wrong with this article, that I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try:

1) "They were completely innocent of the long, hellish crimes against the Jews." Not even close to being true. There is a long history of problems between the Jews and Arabs of Palestine (my grandmother is 8th generation born in the land of Israel and traces back a few hundred years and this is documented). To assume that the Arab Israeli conflict began in 1945 or 1948 when the Jews fled the persecution in Britain is foolish and only proves your lack of knowledge about the subject.

2) "The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war." - This is a lie and was never said. You are quoting Pappe, which automatically discredits almost everything here, and you keep saying it (this isn't the first place you've used this quote). It is true that Ben-Gurion in 1937-38 supported the transfer of the Arabs out of the area of the Jewish state-to-be – which was precisely the recommendation of the British Royal (Peel) Commission from July 1937, which investigated the Palestine problem. The commission concluded that the only fair settlement was by way of partition, with the Jews receiving less than 20 per cent of Palestine, but that, for it to be viable, the 20 per cent should be cleared of potentially hostile, disloyal Arabs.

3) "some 800,000 people were ethnically cleansed, and Israel was built on the ruins." You are suggested Israeli/Jews killed 800,000 Arabs, and to those who do not have deep knowledge of the conflict, they have no reason to believe it's not true. This isn't true. There is a difference between murdering people and them leaving. Most of those left on their own, many stayed, many returned, and Israel offered that more return (those who weren't security risks) but Arab nations encouraged them to wait until Israel was wiped off the map.

4) Your comparison to the UK doesn't even make sense. How can you compare a country that has been around for such a long time with a strip of land that was never declared any type of country. Furthermore, the Jews have always had a presence in the land, not to mention historic ties for thousand of CONSECUTIVE years.

5) "Israel can accept that many (and compensate the rest)" No problem. More Jews have fled Arab countries than Palestinians fled Israel. Once those Arab countries compensate the Jews that were force to leave, oftentimes with only the clothes on their backs, Israel will do the same. Be a man, Arab countries. Go first.

6) "This weekend, the elected Hamas government offered a six-month truce that could have led to talks." Why is that? Could it be because a) why do a temporary truce? Try a real one? and b) every few months, when the Hamas gets tired or is low on resources, they offer a truce, things are OK for a while, and then they get stronger yet again. That's not peace - that's reloading your weapons.

I urge you all to read my blog where I show you more sides of Israel than what you usually get to see. http://realisrael.wordpress.com

"The Jews brought it on onto themselves in WW2."

-Posted by horrified @ April 28th, 5:27 pm

"There are so many things wrong with this article, that I don't even know where to begin"

-Posted by TalTalK @April 28th, 5:35 pm
____________________

Horrified, it almost sounds like you're justifying persecution of the Jews by those Nazi bastards. Say it ain't so.

TalTalK, your claims are bogus defenses of crimes against humanity. I suppose you think the Holocaust is just a myth too? Pappe's research hasn't been challenged by any serious historians, and Walt and Mearsheimer back up the figures cited by Hari and the statement by Ben-Gurion. I'm not going to your blog to read more of your vicious nonsense.

Ostrogoth - why would I think the Holocaust is a myth? Part of my family was killed and others are survivors. I am not saying the Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves, nor am I saying the Palestinians brought everything upon themselves either.

I'm not saying that there aren't injustices against the Arabs, but that does not change the fact that much of what is said here is untrue. The fact that the only part you dispute is the quote shows you have selective hearing (or reading).

BreeMass - excuse me for once again mentioning my blog, but calling Israel an apartheid is misuse of the word for many reasons. Instead of diving into it here, you can read the first two parts of my posts here: http://realisrael.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/an-israel-aparheid-debunked-part-1-definitions-and-history/

In short, however, the South Africa apartheid had racism set in law, it was legal discrimination that was based on the notion of white supremacy. Israel has no such laws and no legal discrimination, and while racism is present in Israel (as it is in the US and other places), you can hardly call it an apartheid.

Gaza and the West Bank cannot be compared to bantustans because those areas are not part of Israel. Furthermore, Israel did not make all of the Arabs live there. For Gaza and the West Bank to be bantustans, Israel would have to annex the terriroties, which is does not want to do.

horrified - it makes me laugh that you think I'm going to take you seriously if you actually believe for a moment that anything Benjamin Freedman (as it is actually spelled, not to be confused with Benjamin Friedman the Harvard economist) has to say is anywhere close to factual. Please. Have you read his theory on how Jews aren't actually Jews, but are really the descendants of a Turkic-Mongolic race who infiltrated the Jews centuries ago. Freedman himself, of course, was a "racially pure" Jew. Let me say it again: Please. Even the rabid white supremacist circle with which he surrounded himself thought he was nuts, although that didn't stop them from claiming him as their own pet anti-Semitic Jew.

But, for the sake of argument, say he was right. Who exactly were "the Jews" who supposedly sold out Germany? Why were they not named and tried for treason? Surely not every single Jew in Germany was involved in the plot? So why wait fourteen years and then unleash a twelve year Holocaust on not only the Jews supposedly involved in this traitorous plot against the poor Germans but systematically exterminate every Jew in Europe? The idea is completely non-sensical, let alone backed up by any factual evidence besides the ramblings of an obviously disturbed and hateful individual.

Even if it was all true and a group of German Jews sold out Germany in WW1 (which, just for clarification, is completely ridiculous), I am offended by the suggestion that their actions somehow justify the slaughter of 6 million innocent people, not to mention millions of others deemed "racially unpure" or "enemies of the state".

whatfools - you may check out a sampling of Benjamin Freedman's speeches to understand why somebody likes me cringes when they hear blanket statements about "the Jews".

BreeMass-- thanks for your thoughtful and insightful comments.

The US occupation of Iraq is eerily similar to the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. We both see "terrorists" everywhere and say they are "hiding behind civilians" when they are actually resistance fighters whose families we (and Israel) kill when we attack with bombs and tanks and fighter planes. Israel seems actually to be afraid of Hamas, which has zero power to "destroy" it. The US just wants Iraq's oil and is now fighting to eliminate the Sadrists who oppose our occupation in order to keep Maliki in power until the parliament signs the disastrous oil leases with US and British companies.

For a ray of hope at least for Israel's victims in Gaza, see jstreet.org, a new lobbying group that has been formed to oppose the Zionist rhetoric and influence over Congress that AIPAC has enjoyed for decades. J Street also includes a PAC that will endorse and help fund candidates for public office who share its views -- peace and justice for both the Israelis and Palestinians, NOT just the destruction of "terrorists."

TT - Honestly, I'm not really interested in your blog. I'm Jewish, I know the arguments and your supposed "evidence" is not going to change my mind. I never said that what is happening in Occupied Palestine is exactly like South African apartheid, but it is close enough. And really, to say that Israel hasn;t and doesn't want to annex the West Bank and Gaza is dangerously disingenuous. Have you been to the West Bank and Gaza recently? I have. Israel has full military control of both areas, controls movement in, out and within the territories, controls the airspace and resources and is busily settling as many Israelis as possible in the West Bank. So whether or not it exactly parallels apartheid in South Africa is an argument over semantics.

Legally, apartheid may not be defined law, but given that Israel has separate laws for Israel proper and Occupied Palestine seems pretty damn close.

Also, your argument that the WB and Gaza would have to be "part of Israel" for the situation to be considered "apartheid" is also disingenuous. Israel has never defined it's borders for very specific political reasons and numerous maps available in shops in Ben Yehuda clearly show a unified Israel incorporating the WB and Gaza.

The question of victim or perpetrator...

I've been called an anti-semite on this site in the past for suggesting that IF jews behaved in the past as they are now perhaps they were being punished, not persecuted.

Take it at face value. Call me names if you would rather than to have to look within.

QBM - I appreciate your candor. Generally speaking, unless we go back to biblical times, Jews have never had any power to impose their beliefs on anybody else. I don't think you are an anti-semite for suggesting it, simply that you are asking an honest question. Other Jews may feel differently, but that;s how I feel about it. Shalom!

Apparently, few people read the bible. Try Joshua when you want some light reading. When Moses led the Jews to the border of Israel, Joshua took them across the border and they butchered everyone they came across for the purpose of stealing their land. Men, women, children & infants. They even got the dogs, cats, chickens & sheep. They left nothing alive because they thought their magic sky-god told them it was OK. The Palestinian Holocaust perpetrated by Israel in the last 60 years is not an aberration . . . it's an ancient jewish tradition.

Ostogorth,

No i do not think the holocaust was a good thing as a lot of people died needlessly. What I am trying to say is that the hatred toward the Jews was brought on by the Jews themselves.

Breemass,

Your response was expected. You assume that the Germans killed Jews just because they woke one day and decided to do so. Think it through for once. Something must have happened to cause the backlash they faced then, not only in Germany, but also in Russia and early USA. You make me laugh more than I make you laugh.

Let me ask you this: If the right wing Christian Zionist are funding the Zionist Jews in Israel to cleanse the holy land of heathens (to bring forth armegeddon), what would happen when all the heathens are eliminated and only the two 'master' race/religion remain? Who is going to kill whom? You got an answer to that? I would like your response. BTW, this is no conspiracy. Read up on John Hagee and the right wing religious nuts in Israel.

The state of Israel was formed as the second modern Jewish state. The first was in Siberia, subordinate to Moscow but far enough away to be independent. The descendants of the Khazars decided it wasn't good enough for them.

Israel is unlikely to have sufficient resources to adequately compensate the Palestinians without ceding a large amount of land. Less than 10% of land in Israel is privately owned, and most of the rest was simply stolen.

horrified, I never once said that I thought the Germans woke up one day and decided to kill Jews. Don't condescend to think I haven't thought this through and I'll ask you to not put words into my mouth. Something must have happened, yes, and it was called virulent nationalism as a result of the Depression with the Jews, communists, gypsies, homosexuals and any other non-Aryan group as a convenient scapegoat for the suffering of Aryan Germans.

I am well aware of the links between fundamentalist Protestants and right-wing Israelis and I am quite aware that those same Christians who support Israel now expect the Jews to either convert or go to hell. Again, you're not telling me anything I don't know...

BreeMass.. You go sister more power to you. Keep them all in line :)

BreeMass: I'm not saying that the Jews weren't persecuted at the hands of the Germans... what I am saying is that has been used as a "get out of jail free" card ever since... And frankly, it sickens me. So go ahead, stick up for the jews.. call me names, whatever the hell you want. I frankly don't care.

I am so sick and tired of the "oh the poor poor jews" line of thinking. It's utter bullshit.

"Something must have happened to cause the backlash they faced then, not only in Germany, but also in Russia and early USA."

- Posted by horrified @ April 28th, 7:29 pm

"I'm not saying that there aren't injustices against the Arabs, but that does not change the fact that much of what is said here is untrue. The fact that the only part you dispute is the quote shows you have selective hearing (or reading)."

- Posted by TalTalK @April 28th, 6:36 pm
________________

Horrified, the Nazis were trying to exterminate Jews. Millions of them. That's not a backlash. The Nazis alleged self-defense against pollution of Aryan racial stock by Jews. It was vicious racism, pursued with Teutonic efficiency, ruthlessness, and sadism.

TalTalK, the Holocaust is not a myth, and neither is Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. I dispute everything you said. I've heard all those sham claims before, but I'll itemize my response if you want.

1) "There is a long history of problems between the Jews and Arabs of Palestine..."

Proving what exactly? That the Palestinians deserve to be ethnically cleansed?

2) "'The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.'--This is a lie and was never said."

Who's more credible? Pappe, Walt and Mearsheimer, or you? See Walt and Mearsheimer, "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy."

3) "Most of those left on their own, many stayed, many returned, and Israel offered that more return (those who weren't security risks) but Arab nations encouraged them to wait until Israel was wiped off the map."

Israel used terror tactics against the Palestinians to drive as many as possible off their own land. See Walt and Mearsheimer, "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy."

4) "Your comparison to the UK doesn't even make sense."

700-800,000 Palestinian refugees have as much right to their land as the British or anyone else have a right to theirs. Hari's analogy is valid.

5) "Once those Arab countries compensate the Jews that were force to leave, oftentimes with only the clothes on their backs, Israel will do the same."

Pure distilled, refined cynicism. You know what you can do with it.

6) "...when the Hamas gets tired or is low on resources, they offer a truce..."

In other words, the only good Arab is a dead Arab.

You are defending crimes against humanity, my friend, just like those who defended racist persecution of the Jews. You cannot possibly believe the claims you are making. I repeat: who's more credible? Pappe, Walt and Mearsheimer, or you? Haha.

Breemass,

Like most of my Jewish friends you are very intelligent, apparently quite compassionate, and have spent much time pondering these questions... not all of my Jewish friends have and they don't like it that I do. I accept that there is an Israeli state. I wish that those that control it would consider that their actions perpetuate the problem.

Keep a level head and it will serve you well, as you seem to know.

Anti-Semitic my ass. Palestine was populated by Arabs, a 100% Semitic people. Israel was settled by primarily European Jews, definitely NOT a semitic people by any stretch of the imagination. The ISRAELIS are the ANTI-SEMITES!! They have been conducting a slow genocide against the Semitic Palestinian People for 60 years. I may be anti-Israeli. I might be anti-Zionist. I might even be anti-Jew. But I am most definitely NOT anti-Semitic. I was none of these before I attended a university whose student body was approximately 70% Jews from New York City. Believe me, I do know that "the Jews" bring down "anti-Semitism" upon themselves. I've lived it. I've seen it. I've been a victim of it. Individually, some of them are really nice people. I even had a couple Jewish girlfriends. But as a group, they are hugely anti-"outsider". I wish no Jew harm. I wish most Jews could say the same about non-Jews. Harsh words. Very harsh. Also very true.

Conservatives are behind every unnatural disaster.

The one state solution, a secular state where everyone is equal Jew, Arab, Druze, Muslim,Christian you name it is the only just solution. Then no more aid from the US...we'd agree to leave the country alone and for the diverse people within it to run their own affairs. This is the answer.