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Remembering Eisenhower's Farewell Address
January 17, 2011 will be the 50th anniversary of President Eisenhower's Farewell Address to the nation in which he warned of the dangers of the unwarranted influence of the military-industrial complex. I think he would be shocked to see how this influence has grown over the past half century and how it has manifested in the country's immense military budgets, the nuclear arms race, our permanent war footing, the failure to achieve meaningful disarmament, and the illegal wars the US has initiated. In addition to all of this, there is the influence of the military-industrial complex on the media, academia, the Congress and the citizenry. It has also ensnared US allies, like those in NATO, in its net. Eisenhower believed that the only way to assure that the military-industrial complex can be meshed "with our peaceful methods and goals" is through "an alert and knowledgeable citizenry."
Eisenhower was 70 years old when his term as president came to an end. He had been a General of the Army and hero of World War II, Supreme Commander of Allied Forces Europe, and for eight years the president of the United States. His Farewell Address was, above all else, a warning to his fellow Americans. He stated, "The conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience." He worried about what this conjunction would mean in the future, famously stating, "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for misplaced power exists and will persist."
Eisenhower feared that this powerful complex would weaken democracy. "We must never," he said, "let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes." He felt there was only one force that could control this powerful military-industrial complex, and that was the power of the people. In Eisenhower's view it was only "an alert and knowledgeable citizenry" that was capable of defending the republic "so that security and liberty prosper together."
What kind of report card would President Eisenhower give our country today if he could come back and observe what has transpired over the past 50 years? For starters, I believe he would be appalled by the enormous increase in influence of the military-industrial complex. Today the military receives over half of the discretionary funds that Congress allocates, over $500 billion a year for the Department of Defense, plus the special allocations for the two wars in which the country is currently engaged. The Department of Defense budget does not take into account the interest on the national debt attributable to past wars, or the tens of billions of dollars in the Energy Department budget for nuclear arms, or the funds allocated for veterans benefits. When it is totaled, the US is spending over a trillion dollars annually on "defense."
Surely Eisenhower would be dismayed to see how many national institutions have been drawn into and made subservient to the military-industrial complex, which some would now refer to as the military-industrial-Congressional-academic-media complex. Every district in Congress seems to have links to the complex through jobs provided by defense contractors, putting pressure on Congressional representatives to assure that public funds flow to private defense contractors. At the same time, academia and the mainstream media provide support and cover to keep public funds flowing for wars and their preparations.
Near the end of his speech, Eisenhower lamented that he had not made greater progress toward disarmament during his time in office. He said, "Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative." It was true then, and remains so today. He continued, "Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent, I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment." Indeed, there was reason for his disappointment, since the number of nuclear weapons in the US arsenal increased under his watch from approximately 1,400 in 1953 to over 20,000 in 1960. I suspect that he would be even more disappointed today to find that the US has not been more proactive in leading the way toward disarmament and particularly nuclear disarmament since the end of the Cold War.
Fifty years ago, Eisenhower feared the threat that nuclear war posed to the world and to our country, and expressed his desire for peace: "As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war - as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years - I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight." He recognized that much remains to be done to "reach the goal of peace with justice." That was true when Eisenhower made his Farewell Address and it remains true today.
We would do well to reflect upon the deeply felt concerns of this military and political leader as he retired from public service. He prayed "that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love." That was his vision, and he passed the baton to us to overcome the unwarranted influence of the military-industrial complex. Our challenge is to exercise our power as citizens of a democracy and to use that power to attain a more peaceful and nuclear weapons-free world.
86 Comments so far
Show All"Eisenhower feared that this powerful complex would weaken democracy."
And he was right.
VP
You do have the uncanny ability to open up just a bit more. It’s the same old rhetoric replacing "atheistic.” The war drums have not ceased since 61'. However, the war machineries have become more efficient and deadlier. It takes fewer soldiers (outsourced with contractors and drones) to kill compare to WII.
PS: Twilight Zone stuff. Sometime into the future only the President, together with a few top Brasses using highly computerize war stations to engage in wars without Congress approval or anyone knowing it.
I have always admired that speech, but that admiration is tempered by the fact of Eisenhower's approval of the overthrow of the democratic government of Arbanez in Guatemala. The beneficiary of Eisenhower's largess was the United Fruit Company, the largest land owner in Guatemala. The loser was democracy, as a military junta has been in power ever since, denying liberty, torturing and murdering its own.
The speech was Eisenhower's finest hour as president.
Eisehower's first act upon becoming president in 1953 was to approve the CIA's first overthrow of a government...in Iran. Today the CIA owns and operates the drone program.
The CIA tried to talk Eisenhower's predecessor Harry Truman into the scam and Harry told them where to shove that idea.
Excellent comments, Visiting Professor.
It is grand irony that Ike helped construct the "military-industrial complex".
And sadly, the media, the people and the government remain in denial of one of the chief indicators of this menace to our very existance as a constitutional government. The events of 9-11-2001, when mentioned, are polarizing in the extreme, and mention of those events as 'lubricant' to insure the mechanism of war runs smoothly, is met with unabashed disdain and accusations of treason or worse. At this moment, over 1400 professional Architects and Engineers from all over the world, are calling for a scientifically valid and thorough investigation into the collapse of the three WTC towers on 9-11-2001, since the official 'story' depends on non-existant physical laws to explain those collapses, but if true physics-based findings and the video evidence are even cursorily examined, one cannot but see that all three WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition, not gravity-induced pancaking as the NIST and other governmental versions insist. Understanding this critical event is pivotal to our 'informed citizenry' and without understanding the real version of events of that day, which have completely governed our foriegn and domestic policies, validated our entry in two wars of aggression, torture, illegal survellaince, rendition, and an out-right ethnic/religious sanction of all things muslim, where the slaughter of millions of Iraqis and Afghans, and Pakistanis has resulted. All in the name of 9-11. We MUST have the truth of what transpired that day, in order to reclaim our place as the 'governors' of this country and its government: of the peolple, for the people and by the people.
Giblatsai, good points. Occasionally we get these 'nodal moments', historically, when we get a glimpse of the utter ruthlessness of the MIC that controls the country. The assassination of JFK was one. 9/11 was another. We failed to grok the significance of either, as a nation, although many did finally get that JFK was murdered in a conspiracy. How many of those actually know it was a CIA job is something I don't know. The corporate media have effectively shut down all debate and discussion of 9/11, as has the pseudo alternative media. It has become a cultural taboo, even though the discovery of unexploded nano-thermite in the dust of the three WTC buildings in 2009 was widely covered in Europe. The movie "Zero" was shown to 30 million viewers in Russia. So there is still a relatively free press in more civilized sectors of the world, where the truth about 911 is known.
"We failed to grok the significance of either, as a nation, although many did finally get that JFK was murdered in a conspiracy."
I was fourteen at the time. My first thought was that it was the CIA.
Here is a part of Eisenhower's Farewell Address to the Nation
January 17, 1961
(excerpt on the Educational-Research Complex)
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central, it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government. Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields.
In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
Withdrawn, unworthy of any answer or notice.
Translation: "I'm a snooty little blue-nose who couldn't answer if I wanted to. And certainly not between snorts of Kopi Luwak."
Your "translation" says much about your immaturity and nothing whatever about anything else.
mtmelchion, 1. One uses what one can use
2. why outsmart ourself?
In some measure, the words of the 34th president were merely a reiteration of those of our 1st.
From Geo. Washington's Farewell:
"Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it - It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it ? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue ? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim. "
it is no accident that his farewell speech gets quoted so much. for a general then president, he was in a unique position to see things pretty clearly. the fact that he used the moment of leaving office to issue this warning probably didn't win him any friends from either the military or corporate worlds.
then again, i'm sure he could already feel the influence of the presidency was being subsumed by them.
President Eisenhower knew very well what he was talking about. The Military Industrial Complex itself probably prevented him from speaking out until AFTER he ceased being President.
The situation has become far worse since President Eisenhower's time. We stand not only to continue to spend our scarce and diminishing national treasure on war and preparation for war, but we are subjecting ourselves and the world to ever greater danger. Unless we can follow the recommendations of Presidents Kennedy, Obama, and others, and work with great determination towards the total elimination of nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction, then the early destruction of human civilization is not only possible but a mathematical certainty. We are speaking here about the lives of our children and grandchildren!
President Obama wants to do the right thing and has in fact concluded an important arms reduction pact with Russian President Medvedev, and this pact has been ratified by the Senate. But a President is far more limited in what he can do than most people seem to assume. For those who can remember that far back, President Roosevelt had to work for years to get enough public opinion behind him to make it possible to send Lend-Lease aid to the British who were desperately trying to stave off world domination by Adolph Hitler. And for Americans to actually join the fighting required the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Public opinion is everything!
It is imperative that all of us - the "Public" - become far more informed and outspoken in this ongoing life and death struggle. David Krieger and his Nuclear Age Peace Foundation are an important step in this direction. May I request that all readers of this article also purchase and read the monumental book "Apocalypse Never: Forging the Path to a Nuclear Weapons-Free World," by Dr. Tad Daley, Rutgers University Press, 2010. It describes in detail not only the many dangerous ways in which these horrible weapons can go off (and have almost done so dozens of times, not ONLY during the well known Cuban Missile Crisis). It also outlines the vision and a practical plan for achieving a nuclear weapon-free world before the bombs can go off. The book will cost you less than twenty dollars from Amazon, http://tinyurl.com/2a7csxp. Please get it, read it, and tell your friends.
Felix.
Felix, I think you have yet to open your eyes about Obama. He has sold us out. His masters are the corporations. Look at all the harm he is doing. Now going after SS. He isn't in charge any more than I am. He is just the face of our general masters. Of the whole world. Look up Bildenburg. Just saying.
Dear Joe who may not be ALL THAT cool,
My eyes are quite open about Obama, as is my mind. I am not sure that you, Cool One, know what an open mind is. I am far from agreeing with all that Obama has done. However, in the case of working towards zero nuclear weapons he is on the right track, even if going too slowly. To speed up the process he needs public opinion behind him ON THAT ISSUE.
Let's talk issues and policies rather than individuals. Thank you.
Felix.
Felix,
You are a nut with loose bolts in your head. You should see a head doctor ASAP and have your head remove for environment sake. Than, we have one idiot less. Your Obama has cause so much griefs, to so many and so short time.
Dear Mr. Sivasm,
Thanks for telling me that you think that I am an idiot. You may not be an idiot, but you have yet to learn to think rationally about an issue, without necessarily agreeing with everything that has been done by the person advocating that issue.
Felix
Thank you sir,
I'll try (I say try) to think rationally and will retract if necessary. We know since day one he lied. He is a compulsive liar, hope we agreed on this whatever follow.
Examples: Did he not say "...that the government will leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." After the BP spill? Did he not say "Hope and Help" is here before he took office on home foreclosure? How on earth you believe in zero nuclear weapons? He is more than a NeoCon, worst than Dubya. The saddest part which I still cannot get over is the foreclosure, more than a million homes will foreclosure this year, while the Banks' Exec. making billions (funny none 2010 bonuses were published in MSM).
Dear "Visiting Professor,"
It is important for as many persons as possible to obtain a copy and read Tad Daley's book "Apocalypse Never: Forging the Path to a Nuclear Weapons-Free World." If you don't like Amazon, get it somewhere else -- I don't really care where you get it, but GET IT and READ IT is what matters.
Felix.
Pssh.. Wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge, Mayor Bloomberg asks me to sell it for him?
"Unless we can follow the recommendations of Presidents Kennedy, Obama, and others, and work with great determination towards the total elimination of nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction, then the early destruction of human civilization is not only possible but a mathematical certainty."
Obama advocated escalation of the illegal occupation of Afghanistan during his campaign. He also advocated escalation of illegal drone attacks in Pakistan. He has done both since his election. He is currently presiding over construction of a new series of nuclear weapons. I would rather not follow Obama's recommendations.
thanks heaps for the warning Ike.
why didn't you do something?
He didn't want to have a bullet pass through his brain. I don't believe any president since Teddy has dared defy the multinationals---none that lived to tell about it.
If Obama does not want to take orders, I can promise you Joe will.
You make a good point, Nietzsche.
A President no longer has the ability to know whom he can trust. Joe would know.
It would not surprise me at all if the General Electric Military channel, NBC, doesn't announce on the 17th that Eisenhower really said: "In the councils of government, we must EMBRACE the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for misplaced power does NOT exist and will NEVER persist."
I mean it's just history. We can go back and change it to whatever we like. You know like, Obama wasn't born in Hawaii, Bush was legally elected president in his first term, Reagan was the greatest president EVER..
Speaking of Reagan, can anyone out there recommend a book which is critical of Reagan from the left?
As sigsep and melchiori have pointed to, what does 15 minutes mean stacked up against Ike allowing the Dulles brothers -- those two Nazi pimps -- to hijack US national security policy, 1953-61? And under the Dulles Brothers, Mr. "Beware of the Military Industrial Complex" allowed the Military Industrial Complex to overthrow -- or attempt to overthrow -- democratically-elected governments in Albania, Iran, Guatemala, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Indonesia, British Guyana, while refusing to allow elections in Vietnam. Not to mention attacks (covert or otherwise) on Cuba, Laos, Haiti, Costa Rica & Syria.
Of course, the monster he described has consumed all, a monster he allowed to form during his presidency.
allow it?
his policies were in step with his worldview, and as most often happens with all of us, the full implications of what we have done years previous may not become apparent until well after the fact.
by the time he was able to get even the faintest glimpse of things, it had already picked up steam - well beyond what he had any influence over.
all true, but will left ever regain power without "allies" who are not as pure as the "true believers" who sometimes compulsively spew out truths that can work against their own goals???
Krieger writes:
"Surely Eisenhower would be dismayed to see how many national institutions have been drawn into and made subservient to the military-industrial complex, which some would now refer to as the military-industrial-Congressional-academic-media complex."
In the original draft of the speech, Eisenhower referred to the "military-industrial-congressional complex." Congress was edited out prior to the public reading.
As to the comments about Eisenhower himself: i would say that it is not about Eisenhower, it is about us. Whether we believe his integrity is corrupted by his personal history or by the Dulles brothers, we still face the task of stopping the US war machine and empire.
And the presidency is way bigger than any president. Eisenhower may or may not have had a good grasp on what he was getting into when he agreed to run for the office, and once in office he was knee-deep in the ugliness of post-WWII US empire building. That doesn't change the truth of his last speech, or his intentions in giving it. He certainly didn't have to say what he did.
We do not need, and we will not get, a perfect person to follow. We need to do the work anyway.
"Every district in Congress seems to have links to the complex through jobs provided by defense contractors, putting pressure on Congressional representatives to assure that public funds flow to private defense contractors. At the same time, academia and the mainstream media provide support and cover to keep public funds flowing for wars and their preparations."
This is the core engine of what keeps the MIC alive and I congratulate Krieger for mentioning the militaristic influence on both academics and employment.
Let's start out with academics. Majoring in science and math are great but what happens when there are no jobs for it? The military would just step in and pretend to be the heroes respecting education. But here's another one and this has been mentioned before but needs to be brought up again. Remember the destruction of liberal arts education through Bush's NCLB? That's the slippery slope towards forcing young minds into narrowing their choices for what to major in. I'm not saying that it didn't happen before that but had my art teacher not been a jerk, I might have been an artist instead of a computer scientist.
The other is employment and as many here know, I worked in companies regressing themselves by tying themselves more so to the military. But I'm not alone and there are millions of Americans who do this out of wanting to get out and stay out of poverty. A typical American would find themselves going for a better paying job and it could be for good reasons such as being very well educated or building years of experience in a certain field. I can't speak for all professions but in a lot of them, finding a good paying job isn't easy. Now the defense contractors know that the economic climate is ripe enough to hire people desperate enough to get back to work so here we are stuck between not working and working against our own conscience. But that's not all. I'll never forget or forgive my last company for politically choosing to down a local business partner when they chose to stick to war-related projects over helping a business help the lower class. Recently, two of those small businesses that got downed last year are being sought after for alleged tax evasion but I know that they couldn't be that bad. That said, it's obvious that the MIC has no interest in quietly going away or giving the American people a smooth transition towards working away from the war machine.
If Eisenhower were still alive today, he'd be called "unpatriotic" by our corrupted Congress and possibly impeached and convicted. But before that, he would have protested Ronald Reagan's aggressive push towards military buildup in the 1980s and even Clinton would have gotten a scolding in the 1990s. By the way, Armybrat and I had discussed about Eisenhower Republicans and from our discussions before, we could agree that they're just rare as FDR Democrats if not rarer !
Max, when it comes to judging others, you sure talk like a committed progressive.
But you don’t really live by progressive values in your own life, do you?
You chose to be a war-enabler, and worked for the Military Industrial Complex,
because you liked their steady DoD paychecks, didn’t you?
How can you be so critical of others for lacking a progressive spine,
when you’re so easily bought (and spineless) in your own life?
One might suppose you cop your progressive attitude here in judging others
to make up for the fact that you’re such a sellout in your own life.
I feel sorry for fake people like you, talking tough from behind your false façade.
Few things are funnier than the incoherent sputterings
of a hypocritical war profiteer who's been stripped naked.
Rave on, baby killer maxpayne.
in your face.
in your face.
I may have worked with companies that do business with the DoD and I mentioned that a long time ago here, got bonked, explained myself, and eventually got others here on CD to understand the rest of the picture that doesn't get discussed so often. I learned an invaluable lesson that your sir have yet to learn. You can't keep working from within when changes cannot be done from within. I learned to break out of the abuse prison while you still cling to it and ask for more abuse. What have you done to undo the destruction of America's working class and what do you have to say about both the Republican and Democratic parties throwing people into wars and big corporations? It was tough but I got off the "military ship" after realizing the hard way that you can't fix a system from within especially if it's broken beyond repair and I'm proud of myself. I have respect for our troops and hardworking Americans who are put in the situations they didn't have to be in. What about you sir?
Why is max against the facts of his own words? Scrub scrub scrub
Anyone looking for an interesting read can check out max's own words, here:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/17-0
In it, max states -
"I'm working as a systems analyst and program manager under a defense contractor since there's no known non-defense company that specializes in IT skills.”
Someone responds:
“Max I suggest you do what you can and that would be to find ethical employment. It is Karmicly proper for a war machine enabler to be bullied by a redneck.”
And it goes from there,
max defending his choice to work as a war profiteer,
with every sleaze excuse in the book.
It's a very topical discussion,
with max defending his work for the baby-killing war machine,
as a long list of other posters reject his excuses.
You cited the lie that there was no good IT work outside of the Miltary Industrial complex:
“I'm working as a systems analyst and program manager under a defense contractor … Ever since I was a kid I loved working with computers and even got into programming. IT jobs have always been hard to come by and outside DoD, forget it unless you can put up with unstable and insecure temporary jobs... I knew I couldn't afford this if I had to get married and not worry my wife…”
When challenged by fellow commenters, your lame defense cited every tawdry right wing talking point defending your choice to serve evil. You claimed it wasn't your fault that you signed up to work for the Military Industrial Complex; the system forced you:
“We're in a fucking war economy and we gotta do what we gotta do. I didn't ask to work in a defense contracting company. The fucking system made me do it.”
-------
You claimed you couldn't otherwise support your wife the way you wanted to, if you didn’t become a war-enabler for pay:
“So I should just be a low paid worker getting paltry wages and live in a shack and disappoint my wife and my family, eh? I'm sorry but there's a limit to all this… I'm not gonna be anyone's fall guy”
------
You also claimed you weren't the one doing anything bad; it was your higher-ups that were to blame:
“I do my IT work but I'm not the one responsible for the damage. It's the upper folks who are responsible for what they do to my work.”
Those were your own words, your own disgusting rationales for taking your paycheck from the evil baby killing American war machine, max. While you were supporting yourself by contributing to the MIC, you were one of the most strident voices against that very machine, on these very pages. Behind the scenes, you were exactly the kind of scumbag you were loudly denouncing here. You showed yourself a complete sell-out to the progressive cause you claim to champion, and your fellow greenies coming to your defense demonstrate what hypocritical tools they are.
Nearly a year later, In Mar 2010, you were still working for the MIC, taking home those DoD paychecks to support the lifestyle you craved, but you recognized the contract for your illegal and immoral gravy train would end in a few months. At http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/03/08-2 you wrote about your job:
“The contract which lasted for years ends in August…”
The reasons you cited why you didn't mind losing your job weren’t a crisis of conscience, but petty personal job complaints -
“boring tasks,”
“finding my job sappy these days,”
“too many arguments with management.”
Those were your reasons for regretting that your job was ending, max? You suffered no crisis of conscience strong enough to convince you to find honest employment during all that time, max. As long as the contract lasted, maxpayne would justify continuing to work for the baby killers. But you were among the harshest, loudest critics toward any politician that dared to do exactly what you did: sell out to the war machine. While you were sucking on the military teat for your money, you were endlessly excoriating your fellow commenters who weren’t politically enough opposed to the war.
Do you get the hypocrisy? You were directly working for, and directly supporting yourself by, and directly taking home paychecks from, your job providing what America’s war machine needed. At the very same time, for more than a year, you and your CD socket puppets were loudly denouncing any commenter here and Alternet who supported the Dems, claiming that was unacceptable support for that very same war machine.
Max didn’t leave his war-machine job early as a matter of conscience. He left when the contract that paid him was finished. There’s nothing to celebrate in that. 15 months after max disgustingly defended his choice to work for the war machine, his pay finally dried up when the contract ended. That’s when he left, not before. Max deserves no moral credit – he took home every paycheck he could from supporting America’s Military Industrial Complex.
Does anybody care to read a living study in the twisted psychology
of people who justify contributing their life's effort to
the most deadly war machine in human history?
While they elsewhere condemn politicians who do the same thing?
You’ve clearly signed onto the Newt Gingrich hypocrisy excuse:
“It doesn’t matter what I do. All that matters is what I say.”
Max, you’re a flaming hypocrite deserving no credibility here,
and those who ally themselves with you thereby demonstrate their hypocrisy.
You used to work for the baby-killing war machine.
You didn't quit.
You kept doing it until the contract ran out.
You sucked on the military teat as long as you could, max.
You get no credit for leaving it.
shall we discuss sucking on teats?
who among us hasn't indulged? and who can become an adept at stone throwing within these glass houses we inhabit?
"and those who ally themselves with you" - if i agree with ONE THING a person says, am i bound with her/him forever?
this is a forum not of the unhypocritical, but of horrified and in many cases flawed human beings who nevertheless see the need to speak out. and yes, offer their most critical analysis, even if it flies in the face of their own conduct.
lighten up a bit. denunciations like this leave one wondering what the particular skeletons are in your closet.
Re:"who among us hasn't indulged? and who can become an adept at stone throwing within these glass houses we inhabit?"and those who ally themselves with you" - if i agree with ONE THING a person says, am i bound with her/him forever?"
starkraving, you're making excuses for huge blatant hypocrisy,
of a person who has no interest in improving his character.
Why you think it's no big deal to be a secret war-enabler
and make one's living as a cog in the war machine,
while loudly and conspicuously pretending to oppose the war in public
doesn't speak well for your judgement.
You claim we all do that?
If we all do, then you must suppose that ALL of our war opposition is fake.
And that's not true.
Shame on you, starkraving.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: "this is a forum not of the unhypocritical, but of horrified and in many cases flawed human beings who nevertheless see the need to speak out. and yes, offer their most critical analysis, even if it flies in the face of their own conduct."
I usually stay away from the comment section.
It's where the dirty-trick-playing moral scumbags,
the hypocrites in love with their own projections,
who will spend eternity in Hell with Lee Atwater,
hang out. F*ck this forum,
f*ck maxpayne and the CD sock puppets,
f*ck the Greens and Naderites, f*ck the purists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re:"lighten up a bit. denunciations like this leave one wondering what the particular skeletons are in your closet."
How you managed to twist max's hypocritical choice
to work for the baby-killing American war machine,
into a lecture that I don’t sufficiently appreciate
the privileges of being American,
is a monumental stretch of muddled thinking.
Seen your type before, know you won't learn a thing, but whatever you think you are accomplishing here, you certainly have made a monumental ass of yourself. Baby killer.
so you appreciate the privilages of being american? what about being humane?
you reveal to all that "moral superiority" can be used as a club to beat people with. and you gain no advantage or personal benefit in doing so.
resorting to invective, name-calling, hate-filled denunciations on a forum such as this is like holding up a mirror. you might be the world's most unhypocritical person, but you stand exposed as one who is just as complicit in perpetuating cruelty and animosity.
if you choose to dish it out, you had better be prepared to take it as well.
First of all, you have no idea about what I actually went through when I did what I did but the other people with whom I argued with here on this site in the past came to understand and we became even smarter from there. Secondly, since you gave away who you were, I'm not the least surprised at your spamming and trolling. You can keep badmouthing me here and on Alternet but that doesn't change the fact that we're here tied to war machine, directly or indirectly. Even on Alternet, you were asked by myself and others on what you're doing to help avert this situation. You never gave an answer on helping people get back to work. Your own best friend, Quannah of Alternet, for all her vicious attacks on me is unable to help her own daughter find a job after two years of being unemployed because every employer looks at former union workers like her as "sinners" which is unfair. You tell us beaky what you and Q are doing about that. Will Quannah's daughter end up in the military or working for a defense contractor after more unemployment time chokes her off or will she end up poor and homeless? That is the kind of a question that I had asked people here and most of them eventually gave very thoughtful answers.
You're very divisive, hypocritical, and dishonest but I thought I'd give you another chance to get off that. I don't care if I don't get credit or blame for my past but what I'm here to do is inform and hopefully do my part to better help warn others about the tough decisions we're put in and the consequences of each decision. When you can share with us how many people you helped get a job that wasn't tied to the war machine, then you let us know both here on CD and on Alternet.
I don't give a shit who you are.
I'm under no obligation to answer your questions, baby killer.
I can capitalize P and B here for fun.
Nobody at AN except CD moral scumbags listen to you.
They listen to me.
Quannah's my favorite friend.
Anyone mess with me messes with her.
I whoop your ass back at AN.
Here or on Alternet, you're a rude dude and that hasn't changed in 3-4 years. Quannah can bail you out with her "Like" button like Obama bailing out Corporate America but that doesn't change the reality that you turn people off just like Corporate America stays crooked as can be thanks to being rewarded for bad behavior. Why Quannah bothers bailing you out is beyond me.
Even on Alternet, most people are repulsed by your obnoxious behavior. We'll see who's left to take you seriously once they read your trolling here but I'm already guessing that they need not bother since you're enough of a rude dude on Alternet as you are here. As for ass whooping, you're already making a jackass out of yourself for everyone to kick around at so dream on. You may be good enough nailing Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, "Tea Party", and Republicans in general but tying us on CD to them is disingenuous and you know it.
By the way, thanks for finally having the guts to give yourself away after trying to run away from your infamous past. I couldn't care less who you were but now that you confessed, thanks anyway. What's next? Are you gonna bring in your goon squad of flying monkeys such as Quannah (when she falls out of control), Beck/Cleyore, foreverhope, and others in your gang? Go ahead. Bring 'em on. I'll pound whatever insulting replies come my way whether it be here or on Alternet.
Max, I've seen you on Alternet and you post very well. I'm sorry to see Quannah beating up on you. You're as progressive as her. When you can be so nice to her and pelican, why can't she return you the favor she does to others?
I don't know how to answer your question. All I can say is that she just has a personal problem from an old conflict. I way always ready to call for truce but not her or pb. But forget all that. Everyone has friends and enemies in life. She'll come around when she's done playing asshole or maybe not. None of that bothers me. Nobody can force her to be nice to me nor me to her. She and pb will have to answer for their own crimes and misjudgments. When they choose to do it will be up to each of them.
Doubledee, point taken and thanks for the advice. All the best to you.
We disagree rather frequently,Max, but I would stand with you on this one point. Responding to that childish post is very unnecessary as that poster condemns himself just fine.
Maxpayne,
I hope you don't mind my replying on your post to Pelican Beak but it looks like yours is the last in the exchange.
What Pelican Beak reminds me of is a theoretical scientist who thinks they have ALL the answers and that completely ignores the very real world. The fact that people in this system we all have been born into have to trade labor in order to even put food on the table or a roof over their heads never even seem to enter the discussion. Oh, hell, just quit your job, live off the land (as if that is even possible anymore for the vast majority) and don't support the system.
All very good and well, but entirely unrealistic. The logic and arguments of children - or of someone who is woefully uneducated - or possibly just full of themselves.
Lets just all quit our jobs in any of these corporations which do so much damage. Sure that will solve things. That there are real consequences for real people in trying to deconstruct this system that we are all trapped in never seems to enter these peoples minds.
No one here on CD has ever heard me say anything positive about what this nation is doing with its military in our two, growing illegal wars and occupations. I, along with almost everyone here has called them for what they are and have called for those responsible for their initiation and conduct to be held accountable for war crimes. What I also won't do is be so childish as to imagine that this nation can just abolish it military outright. And in the world as it is, that is exactly what it would be - childish.
I rode submarines for 20 years. Would I do it again? Maybe not, but I do know that it was necessary. It was necessary in a world in which the Soviet Union routinely put to sea ballistic missile submarines. Granted, the United States and the Soviet Union both played into this insane game, but the fact remained - as long as they had such ships underneath the oceans surface which can vaporize a dozen or so cities within minutes somebody had to go to sea to keep an eye on them and prevent them from launching their missiles if necessary.
No, the real cause of all this crap isn't the average person who is trapped within the system. Its not the people who are working in the lower levels who are the problem, mostly they are just trying to survive - its the people who are pulling the levers of power. Corporate, government, military - the people at the top of the pyramid are the problem.
Real war, a true struggle between opposing forces of roughly equal military power hasn't been seen by the United States in over 50 years and we, all of us, have lost sight of the fact that those who have had to actually fight in one are some of the biggest opponents of committing our nation to war. When every day is just a struggle not to be shot or blown up, it makes one think twice about plunging back into such a nightmare.
The following quote from General Omar Bradley, who earned the respect of the men under his command because of honest concern for their well-being and also his horror at the devastation that was being wrought by the armed conflict among nations, pretty much sums up our "leadership".
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living."
- Omar N. Bradley
KrazyKatz, thanks for the thoughtful reply and I don't mind that you replied to me. I thought that your response overall was partly to me and partly to PB anyway judging by the content of your reply. There's no easy way to get out of being tied to the MIC given its pervasive nature. I have heard of "War Tax Protesters" that has existed since the 1980s but not even that could stop the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. WTP isn't even guaranteed to try to protect citizens from the IRS should trouble arise so that might be why most Americans haven't caught on to it. I have no problem engaging in civil disobedience and I've done my share of it from within the companies I used to work for even if that meant getting marginalized and/or further punished for trying to force them to do the right thing. I'm not saying all this to defend what I did in the past and I don't defend my decisions. I regret working where I worked at but like soldiers who've learned their lessons from serving, I found myself learning some serious lessons. A typical social conservative working at a local business often looks at me with baffled eyes wondering why I'm expressing regrets for working under Corporate America and/or the MIC. They don't understand what it's like to see one's own talents and hard work exploited and misused for political purposes. True, some working there may think it's "patriotic" but others don't but have to do it just to survive. It's easy to blame hardworking Americans and honorable soldiers for doing all the dirty work while looking the other way on the politicians and the ruling class that pushed us into this shit in the first place. The Pelican Beaks don't get that part.
starkraving and webwalk, thanks but it's no use trying to reason with PB. He has been known on Alternet to piss everyone off with his crazed love for the Democratic Party and believing only in primaries and nothing else. He's very rude and vicious when one brings up voting Green or Independent, not voting, or doing a write-in. He's very defensive on the Democratic Party for a party idiot that he is. Anytime anyone points out the faults of the Democratic Party, he'll try to shift the blame on people being "politically incompetent". As recently as yesterday, PB used one of the worst metaphors in his reply.
"You're like the guy who decides to blame brown shirts because several people in brown shirts have done him wrong."
That poster shot back with a tough and humorous reply pointing out how badly the Democrats have gone in supporting and expanding the Republican agenda. He even went to warn us all that from now on, when we vote Democrat to take note that we're voting for a party that holds the nazi brown shirts blameless.
But none of that surprises me given his history of defending the upper/ruling class and the Democratic Party politicians in his efforts to force me to accept all the blame. I don't deny that what I did was wrong and I accept some of the blame but PB and partisan party idiots like him act exactly like Bush/Limbaughian Republicans on their blame game and this has to stop.
You would be far better off ignoring the troll, wouldn't you?