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Obama Confidant's Spine-Chilling Proposal
Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama's closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama's head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for "overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs." In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-"independent" advocates to "cognitively infiltrate" online groups and websites -- as well as other activist groups -- which advocate views that Sunstein deems "false conspiracy theories" about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens' faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper's abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.
Sunstein advocates that the Government's stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups." He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called "independent" credible voices to bolster the Government's messaging (on the ground that those who don't believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false "conspiracy theories," which they define to mean: "an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role." Sunstein's 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Story's Daniel Tencer.
There's no evidence that the Obama administration has actually implemented a program exactly of the type advocated by Sunstein, though in light of this paper and the fact that Sunstein's position would include exactly such policies, that question certainly ought to be asked. Regardless, Sunstein's closeness to the President, as well as the highly influential position he occupies, merits an examination of the mentality behind what he wrote. This isn't an instance where some government official wrote a bizarre paper in college 30 years ago about matters unrelated to his official powers; this was written 18 months ago, at a time when the ascendancy of Sunstein's close friend to the Presidency looked likely, in exactly the area he now oversees. Additionally, the government-controlled messaging that Sunstein desires has been a prominent feature of U.S. Government actions over the last decade, including in some recently revealed practices of the current administration, and the mindset in which it is grounded explains a great deal about our political class. All of that makes Sunstein's paper worth examining in greater detail.
* * * * *
Initially, note how similar Sunstein's proposal is to multiple, controversial stealth efforts by the Bush administration to secretly influence and shape our political debates. The Bush Pentagon employed teams of former Generals to pose as "independent analysts" in the media while secretly coordinating their talking points and messaging about wars and detention policies with the Pentagon. Bush officials secretly paid supposedly "independent" voices, such as Armstrong Williams and Maggie Gallagher, to advocate pro-Bush policies while failing to disclose their contracts. In Iraq, the Bush Pentagon hired a company, Lincoln Park, which paid newspapers to plant pro-U.S. articles while pretending it came from Iraqi citizens. In response to all of this, Democrats typically accused the Bush administration of engaging in government-sponsored propaganda -- and when it was done domestically, suggested this was illegal propaganda. Indeed, there is a very strong case to make that what Sunstein is advocating is itself illegal under long-standing statutes prohibiting government "propaganda" within the U.S., aimed at American citizens:
As explained in a March 21, 2005 report by the Congressional Research Service, "publicity or propaganda" is defined by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) to mean either (1) self-aggrandizement by public officials, (2) purely partisan activity, or (3) "covert propaganda." By covert propaganda, GAO means information which originates from the government but is unattributed and made to appear as though it came from a third party.
Covert government propaganda is exactly what Sunstein craves. His mentality is indistinguishable from the Bush mindset that led to these abuses, and he hardly tries to claim otherwise. Indeed, he favorably cites both the covert Lincoln Park program as well as Paul Bremer's closing of Iraqi newspapers which published stories the U.S. Government disliked, and justifies them as arguably necessary to combat "false conspiracy theories" in Iraq -- the same goal Sunstein has for the U.S.
Sunstein's response to these criticisms is easy to find in what he writes, and is as telling as the proposal itself. He acknowledges that some "conspiracy theories" previously dismissed as insane and fringe have turned out to be entirely true (his examples: the CIA really did secretly administer LSD in "mind control" experiments; the DOD really did plot the commission of terrorist acts inside the U.S. with the intent to blame Castro; the Nixon White House really did bug the DNC headquarters). Given that history, how could it possibly be justified for the U.S. Government to institute covert programs designed to undermine anti-government "conspiracy theories," discredit government critics, and increase faith and trust in government pronouncements? Because, says Sunstein, such powers are warranted only when wielded by truly well-intentioned government officials who want to spread The Truth and Do Good -- i.e., when used by people like Cass Sunstein and Barack Obama:
Throughout, we assume a well-motivated government that aims to eliminate conspiracy theories, or draw their poison, if and only if social welfare is improved by doing so.
But it's precisely because the Government is so often not "well-motivated" that such powers are so dangerous. Advocating them on the ground that "we will use them well" is every authoritarian's claim. More than anything else, this is the toxic mentality that consumes our political culture: when our side does X, X is Good, because we're Good and are working for Good outcomes. That was what led hordes of Bush followers to endorse the same large-government surveillance programs they long claimed to oppose, and what leads so many Obama supporters now to justify actions that they spent the last eight years opposing.
* * * * *
Consider the recent revelation that the Obama administration has been making very large, undisclosed payments to MIT Professor Jonathan Gruber to provide consultation on the President's health care plan. With this lucrative arrangement in place, Gruber spent the entire year offering public justifications for Obama's health care plan, typically without disclosing these payments, and far worse, was repeatedly held out by the White House -- falsely -- as an "independent" or "objective" authority. Obama allies in the media constantly cited Gruber's analysis to support their defenses of the President's plan, and the White House, in turn, then cited those media reports as proof that their plan would succeed. This created an infinite "feedback loop" in favor of Obama's health care plan which -- unbeknownst to the public -- was all being generated by someone who was receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars in secret from the administration (read this to see exactly how it worked).
In other words, this arrangement was quite similar to the Armstrong Williams and Maggie Gallagher scandals which Democrats, in virtual lockstep, condemned. Paul Krugman, for instance, in 2005 angrily lambasted right-wing pundits and policy analysts who received secret, undisclosed payments, and said they lack "intellectual integrity"; he specifically cited the Armstrong Williams case. Yet the very same Paul Krugman last week attacked Marcy Wheeler for helping to uncover the Gruber payments by accusing her of being "just like the right-wingers with their endless supply of fake scandals." What is one key difference? Unlike Williams and Gallagher, Jonathan Gruber is a Good, Well-Intentioned Person with Good Views -- he favors health care -- and so massive, undisclosed payments from the same administration he's defending are dismissed as a "fake scandal."
Sunstein himself -- as part of his 2008 paper -- explicitly advocates that the Government should pay what he calls "credible independent experts" to advocate on the Government's behalf, a policy he says would be more effective because people don't trust the Government itself and would only listen to people they believe are "independent." In so arguing, Sunstein cites the Armstrong Williams scandal not as something that is wrong in itself, but as a potential risk of this tactic (i.e., that it might leak out), and thus suggests that "government can supply these independent experts with information and perhaps prod them into action from behind the scenes," but warns that "too close a connection will be self-defeating if it is exposed." In other words, Sunstein wants the Government to replicate the Armstrong Williams arrangement as a means of more credibly disseminating propaganda -- i.e., pretending that someone is an "independent" expert when they're actually being "prodded" and even paid "behind the scenes" by the Government -- but he wants to be more careful about how the arrangement is described (don't make the control explicit) so that embarrassment can be avoided if it ends up being exposed.
In this 2008 paper, then, Sunstein advocated, in essence, exactly what the Obama administration has been doing all year with Gruber: covertly paying people who can be falsely held up as "independent" analysts in order to more credibly promote the Government line. Most Democrats agreed this was a deceitful and dangerous act when Bush did it, but with Obama and some of his supporters, undisclosed arrangements of this sort seem to be different. Why? Because, as Sunstein puts it: we have "a well-motivated government" doing this so that "social welfare is improved." Thus, just like state secrets, indefinite detention, military commissions and covert, unauthorized wars, what was once deemed so pernicious during the Bush years -- coordinated government/media propaganda -- is instantaneously transformed into something Good.
* * * * *
What is most odious and revealing about Sunstein's worldview is his condescending, self-loving belief that "false conspiracy theories" are largely the province of fringe, ignorant Internet masses and the Muslim world. That, he claims, is where these conspiracy theories thrive most vibrantly, and he focuses on various 9/11 theories -- both domestically and in Muslim countries -- as his prime example.
It's certainly true that one can easily find irrational conspiracy theories in those venues, but some of the most destructive "false conspiracy theories" have emanated from the very entity Sunstein wants to endow with covert propaganda power: namely, the U.S. Government itself, along with its elite media defenders. Moreover, "crazy conspiracy theorist" has long been the favorite epithet of those same parties to discredit people trying to expose elite wrongdoing and corruption.
Who is it who relentlessly spread "false conspiracy theories" of Saddam-engineered anthrax attacks and Iraq-created mushroom clouds and a Ba'athist/Al-Qaeda alliance -- the most destructive conspiracy theories of the last generation? And who is it who demonized as "conspiracy-mongers" people who warned that the U.S. Government was illegally spying on its citizens, systematically torturing people, attempting to establish permanent bases in the Middle East, or engineering massive bailout plans to transfer extreme wealth to the industries which own the Government? The most chronic and dangerous purveyors of "conspiracy theory" games are the very people Sunstein thinks should be empowered to control our political debates through deceit and government resources: namely, the Government itself and the Enlightened Elite like him.
It is this history of government deceit and wrongdoing that renders Sunstein's desire to use covert propaganda to "undermine" anti-government speech so repugnant. The reason conspiracy theories resonate so much is precisely that people have learned -- rationally -- to distrust government actions and statements. Sunstein's proposed covert propaganda scheme is a perfect illustration of why that is. In other words, people don't trust the Government and "conspiracy theories" are so pervasive is precisely because government is typically filled with people like Cass Sunstein, who think that systematic deceit and government-sponsored manipulation are justified by their own Goodness and Superior Wisdom.
UPDATE: I don't want to make this primarily about the Gruber scandal -- I cited that only as an example of the type of mischief that this mindset produces -- but just to respond quickly to the typical Gruber defenses already appearing in comments: (1) Gruber's work was only for HHS and had nothing to do with the White House (false); (2) he should have disclosed his payments, but the White House did nothing wrong (false: it repeatedly described him as "independent" and "objective" and constantly cited allied media stories based in Gruber's work); (3) Gruber advocated views he would have advocated anyway in the absence of payment (probably true, but wasn't that also true for life-long conservative Armstrong Williams, life-long social conservative Maggie Gallagher, and the pro-war Pentagon Generals, all of whom mounted the same defense?); and (4) Williams/Gallagher were explicitly paid to advocate particular views while Gruber wasn't (true: that's exactly the arrangement Sunstein advocates to avoid "embarrassment" in the event of disclosure, and it's absurd to suggest that someone being paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars is unaware of what their paymasters want said; that's why disclosure is so imperative).
The point is that there are severe dangers to the Government covertly using its resources to "infiltrate" discussions and to shape political debates using undisclosed and manipulative means. It's called "covert propaganda" and it should be opposed regardless of who is in control of it or what its policy aims are.
UPDATE II: Ironically, this is the same administration that recently announced a new regulation dictating that "bloggers who review products must disclose any connection with advertisers, including, in most cases, the receipt of free products and whether or not they were paid in any way by advertisers, as occurs frequently." Without such disclosure, the administration reasoned, the public may not be aware of important hidden incentives (h/t pasquin). Yet the same administration pays an MIT analyst hundreds of thousands of dollars to advocate their most controversial proposed program while they hold him out as "objective," and selects as their Chief Regulator someone who wants government agents to covertly mold political discussions "anonymously or even with false identities."
UPDATE III: Just to get a sense for what an extremist Cass Sunstein is (which itself is ironic, given that his paper calls for "cognitive infiltration of extremist groups," as the Abstract puts it), marvel at this paragraph:
So Sunstein isn't calling right now for proposals (1) and (2) -- having Government "ban conspiracy theorizing" or "impose some kind of tax on those who" do it -- but he says "each will have a place under imaginable conditions." I'd love to know the "conditions" under which the government-enforced banning of conspiracy theories or the imposition of taxes on those who advocate them will "have a place." Anyone who believes this should, for that reason alone, be barred from any meaningful government position.
- Posted in





239 Comments so far
Show AllSunstein's apparent desire to ban "conspiracy theorizing" would seem to be an attempt to echo Barack Obama's speech that he had given in Cairo, Egypt on June 4, 2009 when, while telling his audience that al Qaeda had been [supposedly] responsible for the attacks that had killed 3,000 people that day, then proclaimed:
"Let us be clear: these are opinions not to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with."
It would seem that the Obama administration, like his predecessor, is doing their best to make sure that people understand that the only version of what happened on 9/11/01 that will be tolerated is the Official Fairy Tale that was put forth by the Cheney/Bush administration. Perhaps in the near future the U.S. government will drop any attempt at subtlety and simply place the words OBEY and ACCEPT on television screens and billboards across America [if not in other parts of the world].
Sioux Rose
ERROLL: Wow! You nailed it.
So the official story lines may include:
1. The U.S. is not responsible for this nebulous thing called global warming and will continue its business as usual.
2. That we "won" in Iraq, and the country is now peaceful, with full positive developments underway. The Iraqis thank us for our efforts.
3. There are terrorists that must be dispensed with in Afghanistan, and then Pakistan, and then Yemen, and then...
4. That our economy is sound. Numbers of unemployed persons, homeless persons, persons who refuse to buy health insurance instead of paying their rent (or buying food) are not to be trusted. If Wall St says the economy has recovered, then by Jove, it has!
5. Outer Limits: We control the horizontal, we control the vertical. There are no dissident opinions permitted.
6. G.M. "food" is substantially equivalent to the real thing, and good for you!
7. Your government always foremosts has your/citizens' best interests in mind!
There are no conspiracy theories.
There are many conspiracies.
The author's characterization of covert involvement of power dogs in conspiracies is obsolete. Abuses of power by both Democrats and Republicans have been so overt in recent years (concurrent with the electorate's failure to hold them accountable) that power dogs are no longer reluctant to be associated with their evil actions.
If you complain, they tell you to vote for the other party if you don't agree with them.
"These are not opinions to be debated, these are facts to be dealt with."
Thank you for reminding me of this. I too was struck that if there was nothing to hide then there was no reason for this statement. I think that Obama revealed more than he realised, having been apprised of what the government knows about 9/11.
TheProf
Excellent and well thought out observation.
He also said they threatened to kill on a massive scale. Their going to have to be pretty massive to beat our record and body count! We got it down to a science!
"Throughout, we assume a well-motivated government that aims to eliminate conspiracy theories, or draw their poison, if and only if social welfare is improved by doing so."
Umm....yeah. People in power can be trusted--that's the philosophical foundation of the U.S. government.
Franklin and Jefferson are rolling over...
...while Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and other 20th century fascists who thought they were the most successful fascists ever are marveling at the genius of the US politcians to take fascism to new heights.
There is absolutely nothing you can do about this or any other thing you deem "unscrupulous or disastrous" that the U.S. government does. All power is lost. Protest all you want. It is worthless. Demonstrate all you want. It is worthless.
Am I the only one who sees this? Do you think people all over the world aren't demonstrating only to find their voices are worthless?
People in the Middle East want us out. People in the U.S. want us out. Hell. people within our own government want us out. Are we listening?
No.
No matter how much you wanted a pony as a child the answer was "no".
You have no power. All you have is your keyboard and a bunch of other who think like you with keyboards. The answer is still "no".
You have no power. Don't act like you do.
Your vote doesn't count. Your voice doesn't count.
Don't believe me? How many people have said "Take our money back from the banks"? How many people have said "Give me insurance I can afford"? How many people said "Impeachment!"?
Who listened? You, your spouse and your friends. What got accomplished? Nothing.
Shut up. You're burning away my bandwidth.
I think the people still have one power left. When they ask you to vote don't go and expose the sham. If no-one votes the people will still be powerless but the elites will know that the people know.
The right to vote includes the right not to vote.
The Elite already know that the people know. So? It doesn't matter what the people think.
Don't forget that the Ex Vice President told you that.
Bad idea, Prof. As Chomsky has noted, the ballot box is the only point of system control we even theoretically have, short of the kind of violence now making Iraq and Afghanistan hell-holes for children and other living things.
It's ballots, bullets, or numbed resignation.
Mairead
You might have a valid point if there was someone actually worth voting for. Since the election of Barack Obama, many Americans have finally come to the realization that there is little difference between the GOP and the Savage Mules and in the way that they both pledge allegiance to corporate power in this country.
Are things likely to improve without our determined intervention, though? If we simply throw up our hands, what then?
That's the problem I see: without our opposition, the forces of psychopathy that are concentrating wealth and power in their own hands have no reason not to speed up their predation. And, as with planetary overheating, at some point changes become irreversible by any ordinary means. Would we really be better off letting it get to that point? Me, I don't think so. Not in the case of our physical environment, and not in the case of our cultural environment either.
As the late, ever-lamented cultural anthro Dr. Marvin Harris said: caring about something enough to fight strongly for it doesn't guarantee our success, but it changes the odds. Our chance of victory in the battle for a healthy world might be small, but it's more than zero and will go to zero only when the last of us gives up the struggle.
My belief is that if you show people that you are shovel ready, they will come. You might not even have to build it.
--------------------------------
My take on it agrees with yours, Jason. Alinsky thought much the same, and was already planning to make his move when he fell dead on that street corner.
Thanks, Mac JR. I concur. Revolution = suicide. I don't have a TV. I stopped voting along time ago. I dread ever having to say the pledge of allegiance again (jury duty, etc.) Three words are missing at the end: those with money.
There are different kinds of revolution. Revolution is not the same as civil war. It's the opposite, really. The target of a revolution is the current ruling class, not anyone else.
Any revolutionary, if they have their wits somewhere within using distance, wants everyone but the ruling class on the side of the revolution, so that it will succeed immediately and without bloodshed.
The best revolutions occur first in the heart, next in the voting booth, and with any luck are already home and toweling off before they ever get as far as blood in the gutters.
Excellent sentiments.
The American people have not risen up in protest. There have been no general strikes, nothing but whining and feeling bad that we're being screwed. A few weekend marches around the block is not protest. Typing comments on CD is not protest. Maybe the precursers, but not the real deal. Not yet.
This is remarkable. Since bombing and killing Moslems has been so successful in winning their support for the U.S. government, now vastly increased lying to Americans is supposed to win our trust. Makes sense to me.
Jeevee
AND PRAY WITHOUT CEASING that we ALL wake up!!!
Yes, we mustn't forget quantum activism. And maybe that is the point of our apparently hopeless situation? Let us, then, consider miracles.
Doesn't Obama have faith in the American system to self correct, or does he think it needs a propaganda jump start to get the change we can believe in?
Notice this seems to be focused on the left, not the Republicans who have filibustered 101 times and are stopping legislation.
Could it be that Obama needs the right to provide cover as he slips in changes?
I keep saying: "The role of government is to act in ways that are contrary to the good of it citizens."
Looks like we will have thought police under Obama, since Bush could not accomplish that level of restriction. I heard from someone a year ago that Obama would be worse than Bush and I did not think that would be possible, but it is....
It is hard to take a breath as I read this Greenwald entry. Not only does it encapsulate the experience of anyone who has ever indulged in any type of "conspiracy theory" (that which alleges or investigates GOVERNMENT-INVOLVED conspiracies). It highlights the central hypocrisy in the political consciousness of so many "liberal" thinkers of today. I'm taking the literal meaning of hypocrisy as "under-critical:" failure to criticize the actions of ourselves or those with whom we are allied as we criticize others to whom we are opposed. No one can miss the roaring hypocrisy of Obama-supporters who make endless excuses for the very actions for which Bush and Cheney were roundly condemned. I don't even need to go again through the litany of areas in which "liberals" have swallowed whole both domestic and foreign actions that were scheduled to be "changed" by a new Administration.
Apart from this "full body imagery" exposure of the hypocrisy of the administration of Obama and of his supporters, this piece sounds some very concrete warnings of what those of us who dare to meddle with even the suggestion of "conspiracy" thinking are likely to face. We will be exposed to the equivalent of electronic surveillance on every word we post on the internet. Those who take contrarian points of view with comments on CD articles are often accused of being "trolls" (usually with the adjective "Republican" attached). Generally I have dismissed these charges (I've even drawn one or two such charges myself) as the paranoid fantasies of those who like to believe they are the victims of censorship efforts. But turn lose people with the mentality of Cass Sunstein, make them government officers "in charge" of countering anti-government thinking and, clothed with the mantle of "well-motivated" individuals, and we may be facing the prospect of real trolls in a one of the few presently-cherished places for freely true speech. I am speechless from all this, not literally at the moment, but what terrors of fascist thought-control may yet lie before us? I need to take a breath.
hypocrite
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective
bgcd: Either of these would probably work for those who commit these travesties and pretend to be "virtuous" as in: in defending our country, we don't want to trample on the freedoms of our own people.
My own "literal definition" of hyprocrisy as under-criticism was used to hightlight a thing that really bugs me about Obama supporters: their under-criticism of him on the same things for which they severely criticized Bush (of whom, God knows, I'm no sympathizer.)
The Czarist governments of pre-revolutionary Russia were really good at the sort of thing Cass Sunstein advocates. The Czarist secret Police would sometimes form dissident groups just to net dissidents and send them to labor camps in Siberia. Sunstein is another fearmonger and fascist.
So it took Greenwald's amplification of the original Raw Story item to get it posted here at CD. Well, at least it's here. Yet another would-be academic supporting Empire and its Terror.
Sioux Rose
Thank you Glenn Greenwald for all that you do in illuminating the policies being shaped behind the scenes, while also exposing the flaws (often dangerous ones) behind their rationales.
I remember when "Law & Order" did a drama involving an "eco-terrorist" and how chilly I found the very premise. That characterization begins the slide down the slippery slope that links those committed to ecological accountability with terrorism, mostly because such persons are enemies of the for-profit corporate state, where any who get in the way of the one holy grail--the naked pursuit of profit--become problems for such a state. Easier to cast them as demons to cast them off and cut off their potential power and influence.
Mr. Sunstein is evidently allergic to the promising idea that government should be kept in the light, a strange position given that most dark forces thrive in its absence. He could not possibly be so historically illiterate as to believe "my government right or wrong," or "the government/big brother is always right." Therefore we must conclude that his willingness to set up an ideological basis for taking pre-emptive strikes against those positioned to challenge government's motives as a most insidious inversion of civil liberties.
This reminds me of David Horowitz inciting students to "report" their liberal professors. This imbecile actually wrote a book based on the "100 most dangerous" professors. The only explanation for such types of betrayers of freedom is that a certain percentage of any given population is born authoritarian. No matter the Nazi raids, the Soviet ban on intellectuals, the history of book burnings, or the shady deaths of those positioned to speak against the corrupt in high positions, these fools want to cozy up with the powerful by selling out those that might make THE difference in the quality of life for millions. There should be a special hell where they will be exiled to lick the boots of Nazi ghosts.
When the Age Phase Transition is completed, perhaps such types will be regarded as insane, the village idiots, or the social equivalent of untouchables. There is no excuse for what they are advocating given the grotesque examples of where such policies lead. Shame on Sunstein, and if this is the company Obama keeps, the few on CD still hanging onto hope by a narrow thread might be better off praying for a net!
Sioux Rose: thanks for invoking the memory of David Horowitz and his "professor watching" project. Back in the day when I studied the JFK assassination and was actually allowed by a University to teach a course in which "conspiracy theories" were objectively examined, I often wondered why I didn't get "reported."
Well, we're both showing our respective ages, aren't we? Books are passe and there isn't enough content in many college courses to be worried about "academic integrity" but now the internet rather than the classroom is the nest of vipers within which a vigilant Ministry of Information will have to look for evidences of conspiratorial thought. Why did they ever let Cass Sunstein get a computer?
Sioux Rose
PHOENIX 20: "Guilty as charged," which is to say, I crossed the big "50 yard line" a number of moons ago.
The David Horowitz "chill effect" was not that long ago, however. What I think may be at work is the intensity of so many TV channels pulsing, cell phones bleeping, instant messages tweaking, with Internet blogs relaying. Taken together all have sped up the short-term attention span of many brains, or otherwise lessened the arc of memory for many. Too few people keep track of (perhaps even remember) news from 15 years ago even when it holds a direct bearing on present events.
This has been one of the better CD threads, and my personal thanks go out to the following for quite interesting posts:
MAIREAD (10:30 AM & 11:51 AM), PETER PEACENIK (Great post!), CLOVIS (the entire dialog to which you articulated wise responses), TURBOGLO (1:51 PM), WILD CAT (10:17 PM), PEACEMAN (8:39 PM), EPHRAIM (5:51 PM), SAMOSAMO (5;40 PM) and GENE THERAPY (5:30 PM).
It's refreshing to share virtual space and invigorating conversations with so many thinkers on this depressingly rainy, chilly Florida afternoon. The rains seem to carry the weeped tears of the survivors of Haiti, along with any relief workers there to view the seeming Armageddon that just transpired. Haiti like the word Hades, signifies the domain of the dead, and seems to have delivered that dark fate to many already suffering. Perhaps their spirits will know a Liberation that will come as reward to their eternal souls?
Actually, he sounds very much like he DOES believe "my country, right or wrong", or rather, "My country is, by definition, always right". It also sounds very much as though he believes that "the end justifies the means". Either opens up the door to hell.
To this eloquent denunciation, I would only add a hopeful note. The fact that one of Obama's lieutenants openly advocates cognitive infiltration of conspiracy theorists demonstrates a certain desperation among the elites. Note carefully the definition of conspiracy theories as "an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role." This sounds a lot like the Obama administration, as Greenwald demonstrates.
The fact that they would resort to such measures indicates that the propaganda system of the corporate media is becoming less effective. They sense the need to move their consent-manufacturing conspiracy into cyberspace, where, I'm afraid, they will find their efforts much less effective. Their propaganda only works well among those who don't really want to inform themselves about the hard facts that determine real events. Many cyber-communities form precisely around the desire for the real information that is unavailable in the corporate-controlled media. Attempting to lead such people to drink from government-approved information troughs may lead to a kind of cyber-warfare they may not anticipate. Bring 'em on.
Sioux Rose
BOYD: Thanks for the vote of affinity. You seem to be able to face this insidious covert onslaught with more courage than I feel at the moment. Eventually the light overcomes the darkness, but what happens in the interim does not warrant my sense of optimism.
IT gets more FASCIST every day
No Conspiracy but the Conspiracy against Conspiracy identifiers!
What a CRAZY country, man!
Should we really believe this is only an "idea" from a "paper", never put into practice?
Should we ignore the fact that the U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act and other Bush II-signed laws and decrees set up systems which could easily have conducted such activities?
Should we forget that there would be no reason to believe that such activities -alone of Bush II era domestic shennanigans- have been ceased in the Obama era?
Should we not make the simple, logical, step of connecting the above and the article's info to the fact that the "built-in" or "tolerated" or "desired" and "controlled" Opposition in the Obama era is much more prone to, and persuaded by "conspiracy theorizing" than the similar Opposition during the Bush II era?
Or am I succumbing to "conspiranoia"?
Or am I a plant from such a program and trying to convince you that YOU ARE succumbing to such a thing?
Nuts!
-matti.
Folks, if you havn't seen it before, please go to Google Video or YouTube and watch World Trade Center #7 disintegrate into its basemant floor by floor in less than ten seconds. It crimps in the center, as with any conventional implosion of a building and dives into its basement, leaving behind most of its concrete which has turned into a monumental cloud of dust. It is totally impossible to believe that this collapse is anything but a pre-planned controlled demolition. That it might be a random pancake collapse defies reason and common sense. To prepare a building such as WTC#7 for demolition must take days if not weeks. Do you get the picture? Saudis with box cutters this is definitely not. Is it coming to pass that doubting the most obvious of lies will be considered thought crime?
Tony Vodvarka
Some of us conspiracy theorists think that WTCI and WTCII were merely red herrings to get WTC7. That and the office of Naval Intelligence in the Pentagon had critical records related to fraudulent financial dealings. You know the financiers that run the world and have recently decided to impoverish the US.
An improbably high number of accountants and bookkeepers were among the casualties in the wing of the Pentagon that was struck. Most others had been relocated because of ongoing construction.
Those accountants were trying to learn the whereabouts of the 2.3 Trillion dollar the Pentagon "could not account for" (as reported by then Sec. of Defense Rumfeld on Sept. 10.
I remember reading about homeland security planting their people in activist groups, including anti-war and anti-gmo, including college campus groups, trying to incite these groups to violence. Nothing new here, but it's still scary. Taxpayer dollars also go to public relations firms where they spin the ideas the government wants to impose, spin the damage control when things go awry, and polish up politicians.
WHERE ARE THE LAWYERS?
How in hell does someone like this rise this high in the legal profession? At Harvard, no less ... and the White House? Really, is the profession so devoid of backbone and decency that something like this can be proposed by a prominent member without reaction? For God's sake, there are countless tens of thousands of attorneys in the U.S. They should be as a single voice in killing this nonsense. Is Greenwald the only one willing to speak up?
We've seen some here on CD:
Daniel David
Letto
A truly impressive brain fart...with a full Bush nose, a whiff of fascism, and faint Cheneyesque highlights.
Form a government conspiracy to infiltrate online groups to promote government propoganda that there are no government conspiracies.
Is this clown channelling Nixon?
Somdays I have the feeling I am the only person on here not getting paid to post.
mujeriego January 15th, 2010 5:38 pm -- Well, I'm sure you're not getting paid for your spelling.
....and your brilliant addition to this discussion is what?
With the secret meetings, secret deals, Senate candidate aides roughing up reporters (in Mass. of all places) plans for government coerced payments to the insurance cartel, huge transfers of public money to private corporations. are you scared yet?
I'm scared out of my mind. See I was an Obama supporter from late 2007 on. The tone in those groups is that anyone who dares to criticize Obama in any way or oppose any policy he proposes is an enemy.
Frightening times.
Did anyone not suspect there were covert government bloggers?
Did anyone think it would only come during certain administrations?
New Fear: blogosfear
I think this has been going on for sometime since there is pretty much no way to determine who most people are that comment on sites such as this and then the absolutely vehement way some people try to, for example, play down major and obviously illegal events and such to create doubt in people's mind.
In short, this is all part of the mainstream media agenda to dumb, numb, stupefy, mislead enough of the masses so that truth and reality are covered over so much it gets harder and harder to untangle it all and classic to this is just the almost overwhelming number of crises, disasters and worthless msm dribble played out to the population.
So it works because there are far too many people who don't believe, think or comprehend that there is anything wrong with the msm and certainly this subversion is in no way to be considered THE MOST TOP PRIORITY TO FIX in this country and even the fact that what was once 60 or 70 owners of the msm, now there are only 4 or 5 and soon to be even less and those owners are all ultra conservative if not out right neo-conservatives, but it also helps to have a helping hand from congress by it not doing its job of oversight and investigations, but now it appears people may just get themselves a new home in a private contractor's prison for just expressing ideas and opinions which would make US the terrorists.