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How Americans Think About Torture - and Why
In recent weeks, new revelations about the harsh interrogation and torture of detainees during the Bush administration years have made headlines and stirred controversy. The positions of prominent advocates and opponents on each side are clear. But what do we know about how the American people in general have come to view the use of torture by the U.S. government?
The Pew Research Center for the People & the Press has been polling Americans on this key question for almost five years. Since 2004, representative samples have been asked, "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?" The results over this time period have shown only minor fluctuations. The most recent numbers, from last month, reveal that 15% of Americans believe torture is often justified, 34% think it is sometimes justified, 22% consider it rarely justified, and 25% believe torture is never justified. So not only do 49% consider torture justified at least some of the time, fully 71% refuse to rule it out entirely.
Further insight into these numbers can be garnered from a different poll conducted a few months ago, in January 2009. Fox News/Opinion Dynamics asked a national sample of Americans, "Do you think the use of harsh interrogation techniques, including torture, has ever saved American lives since the September 11 (2001) terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon?" The results: 45% "Yes" and 41% "No" (with 14% responding "Don't Know"). In other words, almost half of Americans think torture "works."
Polling data on how Americans view specific interrogation techniques that were part of the Bush era arsenal are harder to find. But a national Gallup poll in January 2005, about eight months after the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, sheds some light here. The following question was posed: "Here is a list of possible interrogation techniques that can be used on prisoners. Do you think it is right or wrong for the U.S. government to use them on prisoners suspected of having information about possible terrorist attacks against the United States?" In order of approval percentages, the survey found that 50% approved of depriving prisoners of sleep for several days; 36% approved of threatening to transfer prisoners to a country known for using torture; 29% approved of threatening prisoners with dogs; 18 % approved of forcing prisoners to remain naked and chained in uncomfortable positions in cold rooms for several hours; 14% approved of strapping prisoners on boards and forcing their heads underwater until they think they are drowning; and 13% approved of having female interrogators make physical contact with Muslim men during religious observances that prohibit such contact.
Based on this sampling of polling results, it is easy at first to be surprised and troubled by the degree to which Americans have expressed support for the inhumane treatment and torture of detainees. But public sentiment on such matters does not emerge in a vacuum. Rather, it often reflects the influence of carefully orchestrated marketing campaigns by powerful vested interests eager to shape opinion in support of a specific agenda or facts on the ground. Certainly it is now well known that the Bush administration embraced the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" in national security settings. It is therefore instructive to carefully consider the five-pronged message that they and their backers promoted to create a citizenry supportive of torture.
The first component involved fostering a "war on terror" environment of pervasive fear in which the prospect of massive, catastrophic harm was repeatedly given center stage. Spurred on by improbable ticking time-bomb scenarios where every second matters, perceptions of an urgent need to protect the country from looming disaster created a "whatever it takes" mentality in which efforts to extract crucial information through harsh interrogations and torture became a "no brainer."
The second element advanced the view that we need not be helpless against this threat because through torture--and torture alone--we can learn what we need to foil the plans of evildoers. Unsubstantiated evidentiary claims, hidden from inspection by veils of secrecy, were used to argue that specific interrogation techniques--regardless of how they might repulse us--were ultimately the only way we could protect ourselves.
Third was the frequent assurance that those we subjected to torture were themselves guilty of having participated in heinous acts of injustice that caused the loss of many innocent lives. This argument served to diminish concerns the public might have felt over the treatment these individuals received while in custody. Even in the absence of legal proceedings, the detainees could be deemed deserving of the physical and psychological pain inflicted upon them--they were responsible for their own suffering.
Fourth was the repeated assertion that the United States has a finely tuned moral compass and engages in torture only with regret and discomfort, only as a last resort, and only in the service of a far greater good. Sharp contrasts were drawn between "them" and "us"--between the detainees' innate evilness and our inherent goodness, between their vile aims and our righteous purpose. In this context, the interrogators were presented as courageous and heroic, worthy of praise rather than criticism.
The fifth and final component was a concerted effort to stifle open debate when questions about the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" arose. Standard strategy here involved painting skeptics and critics--including human rights leaders and organizations--as untrustworthy, irresponsible, misinformed, weak, or unpatriotic. In so doing, the public was encouraged to discount, ignore, or condemn these voices of concern, and important words of warning therefore went unheeded.
In sum, this seemingly successful campaign of mass persuasion depended upon convincing the public to believe five things: (1) our country is in great danger, (2) torture is the only thing that can keep us safe, (3) the people we torture are monstrous wrongdoers, (4) our decision to torture is moral and for the greater good, and (5) critics of our torture policy should not be trusted. And all the while, the marketers painstakingly avoided using the actual word "torture"--and contested the word's use by anyone else. Of course, this strategy is by no means unique to the selling of torture. A similar approach, designed for hawking war, was used with devastating and tragic effect in building public support for the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Admittedly, we cannot be sure that torture would be less popular with Americans today if the Bush administration had not worked so hard to promote it. But there is good reason to think this might be the case. After all, the combination of an outsized public relations budget, an overly accommodating mainstream media, and an unwary audience of millions is every marketer's dream. In similar fashion, we cannot really know whether there would now be even greater public support for torture if not for the efforts of those who have steadfastly spoken out against our country's interrogation abuses. Looking ahead, as still more information emerges through declassification of documents, high-level investigations, or congressional hearings, we should expect to hear this five-part sales pitch over and over again from Bush-era torture advocates. But hopefully this next time around, far fewer of us will still be buying.
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110 Comments so far
Show AllIt is frightening how many Americans endorse torture. It is as if today's America is not the country I grew in.
WTF May 11th, 2009 10:51 am..............It is not, although the growth mechanism for the virus was well in place, causing an exponential growth through the past fifty years. As a reult, the sheeples/sleeples have learned to FOLLOW more than ever, falling into a deeper and deeper SLEEP through all those factors mentioned by Siouxrose and others in a previous post. Maintaining individuality and integrity in today's world is a 24/7 vigilance.
I really have to take issue with the survey. It is hopelessly shaped, one big logical fallacy:
"Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information"
-implicit in that sentence is that important information can be gained through torture.
It is presented as a fact that has no backing and most people will reason it is a lesser of evils -torture one not-so-innocent to save many innocents.
By itself the following could be described as neutral (it likely is not) but not if that sentence about gaining important information or similar set up implicit statements preceded it:
"Do you think the use of harsh interrogation techniques, including torture, has ever saved American lives"
I suspect the percentages might be quite different if the survey was preceded by a discussion by smart interrogators on what works and what doesn't. Professional interrogators who use guile, dishonesty and various other non-torture techniques to gain useful and reliable information rather than unreliable information (tell them what they want to hear to stop the pain) and false confessions from goon torture.
Granted the minority of hard-core religious right living the Old Testament won't budge from their ideology but the majority might well be swayed by truth and reason.
Sioux Rose
SANCTUARY: Incisive observation & insight(s).
Sanctuary
"-implicit in that sentence is that important information can be gained through torture."
Excellent point! The radical right is as implasccable as the radical left so l;ets just ignore them. Small percentages in any case, though as usual the right outnumbers them 4 to 1.
I think a perusal of comments in CD on the issue of torture will show that those on the left are just about as convinced that EIT (enhanced interrogation techniques) never works as those on the right are convinced that EIT has in fact foiled terrorist plots. Cheney has to be given credit for a useful suggestion: release of objective facts concerning the results of use by the U.S. of EIT since 9/11 will inform public discussion. Obama, by the way, has apparently sided with the conservatives, since he has said the same information obtained by EIT could have been obtained by legitimate means (implying that useful information was obtained). I can't agree, without definitive proof, that any useful information was obtained. Even if persuasive evidence comes out that it was, the U.S. shouldn't authorize EIT until international law clearly and precisely defines the parameters of EIT; it being clear that the Bush authorization of such techniques despite widespread international condemnation has dashed whatever hope we had of being a moral exemplar, and put us on the losing side in the war on terror.
The US engaged in plenty of torture in Vietnam and Central America, and for the most part it never became an issue. If there weren't any women near the front -- if someone hadn't thought it would be good, kinky fun to get PFC England in some pictures -- it might not have this time.
Or did you grow up in an America after we played Cowboys and Indians?
bardamu
I'm quite interested, where did you see this torture in Viet Nam? Do you remember the units involved? What kind of torture was use d ?
I saw it via "stress positions", placing the bound individual in a small cage where one could neither stand, nor sit, and being kept wet almost constantly. The instep of the foot was usually placed on a thick piece of bamboo, forcing most of the weight to be borne on either the heel or the ball of the foot. Alternately, the bound individual was forced to kneel on the thick piece of bamboo in another small cage. I have no idea which unit(s) conducted this.
Ugly, ugly, ugly.
WTF
Where was it? And more importantly, when was it?
1968. I wasn't supposed to see it, so never saw it again in my 3 tours. I didn't stop it because I'd seen worse, and this was war, remember? I'd been brainwashed.
Hey, Thomas----
Where were you when many soldiers, and Marines reported the common practice of torture---in many forms, on any NVR or Vietcong they did not kill out right during the fifteen years that the USA was there and especially the last ten years:
In fact it is/was common knowledge to many---except those who deny it----
or those still living in a fantasy world that Viet Nam was anything but American's practicing up for other conflicts. Then, when it turned out 'somewhat badly for them'---- like the two they are presently involved in-----they started "spinning webs" of deceit and duplicity and Hollywood make billions off it----
Your arrogance and duplicity 'shines like a bright star on a dark night'----
or do you write these things to see how others may react?
You can't possibly believe your own bullshit----no one could be that dumb and still read and write much less use a computer..........
Good Luck Thomas
Well Hey there Naive Son
I was mostly in the Que Son Mountains and the Arizona Valley.
I certainly heard reports of it, but only saw it once and put a stop to it. I was there quite a while so I don't think it was quite as widespread a some would like to make it out to be. But it surely happened. I did see a few ears and teeth carried by some idiots.
I'll tell you what I did see as to torture, and that was quite a few NVA strikes on Vil's and farms. Quite a number of heads on sticks...did you miss those? Remembeer the women and children and what was done to them?
Where and when...exactly.... did you see all these atrocities that were so widespread? How many did you see and why didn't you stop it or report it?
Every time I see this BS it develops that the y "heard" it somewhere
I spent nearly 20 months there, 14 in combat so I must have missed the "widespread" "common knowledge" happenings.
The insults and name calling define you little fellow, not me. I'm ashamed for you.
Yeah, they put heads on sticks to warn the Mong not to cooperate with us. So that makes throwing them out of choppers okay, right? You are truly fubar.
Well, you must have been one of Uncle Sam's "really good guys"--------or the master of bullshit---------since ( unless you were a fool, or "not there") the average tour of duty in Viet Nam was 12 months----one year----365 days (less leave and travel time)-----------and you were there for "20 months"---------
Shit man, you must ve won the Congressional Medal of "Fucking" Honor for all of that service------------
And whatever the NVR did to civilians was irrelevant for the US Troops----oh shit I forgot---you ARE monkey see monkey do------
you are a master bull shit er---------------
and you just got caught.
You never heard of second tour?
That the US Government has historically engaged in torture is not surprising. What I do find surprising is the number of US citizens that endorse torture, which appears far greater today than during the Vietnam war, or various sorties into Central America.
This has to be part of a systematic policy of dumbing-down voters (through TV, etc).
You must be kidding! America has been a rogue nation from the begining, and with the exception of the "12 decent Americans" (I write about them often) the rest of them are criminal and hold a special place of contempt for the 'rule of law' they feel they are exempt from those they do not wish to recognize; even if they write them. They are a dangerous people, especially to those who are unable to fight back. They do not keep their promises, and they hold life (except their own of course)in little regard, and they will destroy entire nations with as much regard as if they were burning a pile of trash.
Torture is considered by most of them as the equivalent of "littering the highway", and they will of course maintain the lies with the argument that the 'information obtained'---"saved American lives"----"so it must have been worth it"---
Then they will use the torture by others of them to help try and elect a president---as in the case of "Ole John Wayne" McCain-----------"an American hero"-----
The only consolation for those "12 decent Americans" is that they will find a safe place with our people----just as soon as the USA disentegrates at its own hand.
Good Luck America, you really need it.
Sioux Rose
Excellent article and the 5 "conditions" definitely explain the mindset. I would add that there are other cultural "norms" that also desensitize a populace to the wonton destruction of life. These include:
1. The near-idolatrous love of guns in this nation
2. Hollywood generating powerful images that make violence sexy or glamorous
3. Churches clammoring for Holy War (or vengeance)
4. A national diet heavily into meat (dead animals). Hamburgers are patriotic!
5. Pornography: total degradation of women, the communion aspect of loving sex
6. Capital punishment: If the state kills, it's O.K (even with the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not kill" on prominent display in the courthouse!)
7. A make-war state/economy
8. Sports and the frenzy of fans as per "Slaughter the enemy"!
9. Morally depraved idiots like Rush Limbaugh FRAMING news events in a way that gathers up all the hatred in the nation and projects it at a scapegoat.
10. Public ignorance about the "presumption of innocence" and fundaments of The Bill of Rights and Geneva Conventions
There are no doubt other factors, but these contribute to the mindset of us versus them, and effectively massage the public's conscience into a state of oblivion.
6. Capital punishment: If the state kills, it's O.K (even with the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not kill" on prominent display in the courthouse!)
Sorry, it reads in the original Hebrew as "thou shalt not commit murder" Far different than kill.
Sioux Rose
There goes that "letter of the law" aspect so prominent in YOU, Doubting-Thomas. Since too often the state executes an innocent individual, it qualifies as MURDER. In my view, so does militarism especially as per the accounts of Smedley Butler and John Perkins, too often the military is just the strong-man forcing another nation to give up its assets. Kill and murder are very similar. You are an unconscious prisoner of your past and seem to always seek ways to justify your experience as a soldier. I wonder if there is blood on your hands? You'll get your chance to argue your case with the Lords of Karma. Meanwhile, mercy would add more to your "account" then all these letter-of-the-law petty differences, inclusive of your ATTITUDE toward "illegal" aliens.
Sioux Rose
Thats quite an extrapolation of a number of questions from a simple statement!
Your view that the execution of an innocent person is murder is held by many that oppose the death penalty. If you are asking me how I feel since you brought tha t up, I really don't know. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't.
I'm well aware of your anti-militarism and your view tha t all soldiers are murderers. Thats your perogative, its not true of course, its just a view held by many tha t don't see the world as it is, but rather as they think it should be. If you were a Darfurian woman you would be thrilled to see a militarist on your side.
I need nio justification for my service. It was required and I served. That many here don't understand is not exactly surprising. I a m proud of my service, proud of my men...who all served honorably and well.
Blood on my hands? Are you asking if I killed during my service or did I just give orders to my men to defend themselves?
I probably have far more empathy, understanding and sympathy for illegal aliens than you do since I have worked with and know o many more than you do, unless I misunderstood your background. One of my Corporals was not a citizen by the way.
My attitude towards illegalsd is quite simple. They are not Americans, they are taking American jobs, depressing American wages, have a defined defecit cost per illegal each year and are abused and exploited by business. The only winner here is business. I'll be happy to go point by point on the whole question, but I warn you the only defense you'll have is.....emotion. They are here, they have a right to be here argument.
You say "letter of the law" as if it is a terrible thing to obey the law. Mercy? How do you draw the point of demarcation if you don't have rules?
"I'll be happy to go point by point on the whole question, but I warn you the only defense you'll have is.....emotion. They are here, they have a right to be here argument."
Sorry, but this is wrong. Nothing is ever this simple. Here's a hint: immigrants need food too. They need housing too. They desire things too. Their needs and desires contribute to the economy.
rfloh
Sorry, but I'm not speaking of immigrants. I'm speaking of illegal immigrants. Two entirely different things.
I'm sorry too that you believe that they add value. They do not add value to our economy. They substitute for American workers, they don't bring new jobs, they simply work for less and depress wages for the American worker. and they have a defined defict cost per year per illegal. They add profit for business but extract money from the local economy and citizens.
Its not just the illegal workers either, H1B workers and other legal work programs accomplish the same goal.
And yes it is that simple. Choose to favor foreign nationals that are not citizens of our country and big business or choose American workers. Choose whose needs you want to fill.
Illegal entrants into my country are far down my list. Its a question of right and wrong, of morality and fairness. I simply choose right, morality and fairness. Not to mention the rule of law the Republicans are so fond of quoting, but is undeniably at risk here.
"They do not add value to our economy. They substitute for American workers, they don't bring new jobs, they simply work for less and depress wages for the American worker. and they have a defined defict cost per year per illegal. They add profit for business but extract money from the local economy and citizens."
I repeat: Immigrants, whether illegal or legal or H1B or whatever, have needs and desires. An immigrant also needs to eat food. Needs a place to stay. Wants a car. Wants nice clothes. Wants to go to music concerts, to movies, sporting events. The food could very well be grown by a non immigrant. The house built by a non immigrant. The plumbing in that house could even have been done by Joe the self styled Plumber. The car built by non immigrants. The movies, owned by American businesses which employ Americans. Etc ad infinitum.
Your analysis is simplistic in the extreme.
To make it less simplistic, lets define who we are speaking about. Immigrants or illegal immigrants? They are not one a nd the sa me since we are speaking of simplicity.
My points apply only to illegal immigrants. And the use of our work programs to abuse the American worker. No one else. To claim there is no difference...... is past simplicity.
You said,
"Its not just the illegal workers either, H1B workers and other legal work programs accomplish the same goal."
From this I took it to mean that you believe legal immigrants also do not add value. Is that your position or not?
Of course not. Legal immigrants are invited here and they will become Americans in most cases. They are also law abiding and all add value with a positive net value not a deficit as illegals do. An immigrant that adds money to the local economy is a bit different than an illegal immigrant that subtracts money from the local economy wouldn't you agree
Being in the US with legal status is not being here as an immigrant either.
Hmmm I agree with Siouxrose AND Thomas More on this thread! Isn't that interesting. They are, I believe arguing different things and are both correct.
Sioux Rose
J LOCKE: Another proud citizen of the land that put cognitive dissonance on the map! (LOL)
jlocke123
And I probably agree with you..............
How about that Sioux Rose! (LOL)
Sioux Rose
THOMAS: As you know I admire your congeniality. In my view you are the quintessential NICE GUY, and as you also know, I abhor your admiration of military service, and find your views on illegal aliens jingoistic. Better to focus on the elites who engineer policies that force those unfortunates away from their own families & communities in search of food, labor, and income across dangerous borders. I look for "the greater humanity" in any equation or event.
Sioux Rose
And as you know I admire many of your opinions, agree with more than you think plus think you are a sweetheart of a person on top of that. And your ability to disagree without being disagreeable, which is a mark of intelligence in my view. Name callers are usually not too bright.
A. My admiration is reserved for those that serve, not military service. And I simply feel that those that don't acknowledge the need for a defensive military are not living in the real world.
I think you would find my views on the way our military has been used in a number of instances the same as yours.
B. Jingoistic? I was thinking the same about your's and others arguments.
Mine are firmly anchored in both economic and moral reality. My arguments as far as I can see count the economic cost to our country and citizens, of illegal immigration. The next part is the moral argument that a criminal should not be rewarded instead of a law abiding person applying legally. And lastly the harm done to the illegal and his family.
There is not a lot of humanity in what is happening today.The picture being put out by business and their shills is flat false. Go one point at a time and it is self evident.
Consider the criminals that are hiding inside these communities, terrorizing them much as they did in their home countries. The many other abuses that people that can't turn to our law for protection have to bear.
edit....I'd like to add that disagreeing does not mean that I don't respect or value your opinions.
Sioux Rose
THOMAS: IF and when the military serves its intended purpose--to protect America against TRUE dangers, I would have respect for it. I think you know that recent US history has been much more about exploitation of other lands using phony ruses to "justify" these illegal invasions and unnecessary quotients in the form of "collateral damage."
The situation with "illegal aliens" is complex and there is pain on all sides, but again, the policy that set this condition into motion was set by and through NAFTA and its supporters. America is breaking down and there are a multitude of symptoms. At least we meet in this forum to hone our arguments and empower our sense of purpose in the hope of doing some good in this world.
As to the first paragraph....Yep! We agree. Especially Iraq. No excuse for that. My only interest is in the kids that serve as far as the military goes at the moment.
As to the second paragraph.....Yep. We agree again. Very complex and yet simple too. I would submit that the elites , at least in the Latino countries are quite responsible for their situations, long before the crime that is NAFTA.
"America is breaking down and there are a multitude of symptoms"
I agree again and we are going to have to pull together to repair it. That is why we can't allow all the wedges from a number of sides to work.
My guess is that due to population pressures and as we withdraw our protection from a number of regions we will see a number of wars break out around the world. Our society and economy is not unbreakable and these fools have dissapated the wealth our fathers gave us so I believe the easy times are over.
I believe there are extemely valuable things and thoughts that come from these forums and they spread. But it is in spite of elements that also inhabit these spaces whose only thought seems to be as destructive and as negative as possible.
I have thought of leaving this particular forum lately because of the childish and sophomoric rhetoric employed by some and naked hate by others, but it is you, zmann, Jennifer, jlocke123, GWNorth, Dante, Bill,RR,chessgames56, Kivals, NateW,Vox and others that keeps me here and learning. My thanks.
An "illegal alien" is not a criminal, any more than a person who exceeds the speed limit at any given time is a criminal. You speak of morality and humanity. What is moral about labeling someone a criminal who crosses an arbitrary border to feed his or her family?
Your thinking is absolutely jingoistic.
blessthebeasts
"What is moral about labeling someone a criminal who crosses an arbitrary border to feed his or her family?"
And you are callimg me jingoistic? That song has been sung by the open borders crowd for years.
Yes, someone that enters our country illegally or stays illegally is a criminal. Its a bit more serious than speeding. Do you know what happens if you don't pat your speeding ticket?
You believe its an arbitrary border? One that is supposed top protect you from being relieved of your property or livelihoodor even your life?
You believe its moral for a foreign national to come here and take an Americans job?
You believe its moral to teach your children its OK to disobey the law if it doesn't suit your own selfish purpose?
You believe its moral to have citizens here pay to support you and your family instead of spending their money on their own children and families?
You believe its moral to allow someone to stay here, gain legal status if you have your way while a law abiding person trying to immigrate here legally looks on from another country?
If you want to apply "humanity" there are far more deserving people that are far more desperate than most of the illegals now in our country? You argue that because they were sucessful in breaking in they should be allowed to stay while inhumanely keeping more deserving cases out?
Pardon me, but emotional arguments without a bit of logic seem nothing but jingoistic to me.
In the end though I'd ask why you'd choose a foreign national over an American citizen? Why you'd put their welfare and needs before your fellow citizens? And why you'd choose to impose that burden of cost on your fellow citizens knowing that someday you will have to pay it too?
The definition of jingoistic or jingo: a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy; chauvinist. I think you fit this definition very well.
On the subject of citizenship, I consider myself a citizen of the world. The borders that have been drawn all over the globe by imperialist governments are certainly not there to protect me, or you, for that matter. I'm surprised you would say something so naive. "Illegal immigration" is so low on the list of challenges the world faces, it's almost laughable. It's being used to rile up the masses and distract them from the true criminals who are destroying our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I should a lso have pointed out that a legal immigrant cannot be exploited by business the way an illegal one can.
Hey Cuz, (Sioux Rose)
When you communicate with Thomas, " you must remember this"-----------
You are communicating with someone who at best is delusional about his Country's history in regards to the "letter of the law" or he would be a commentator on the fact that the USA still does not honor its treaties---which the constitution clearly states are "supreme law".............
But then, many Americans spell Justice---as "Just Us"---------
Go figure, an American being duplicitous! Nawh, tell me it ain't true!
Good Luck Thomas, like quick sand, duplicity will 'drag you under'----and "drown you".
Sioux Rose
NATIVE SON: I love when you call me cuz!
Thomas mentioned that he might consider leaving the forum, makes me feel nostalgic for some missing voices/friends like Kem Patrick and Aymon, and no doubt others. A few stop in from time to time, and others like Rich M and Little Brother have morphed into new entities. I do feel drawn back to this forum, even when I am traveling. Before CD had the comment section, I used to walk down a dusty road in India when I was staying at an ashram (not my cup of cosmic tea, although I LOVED the time spent at a Buddhist Monastery in Nepal) just to tap into an Internet site at a small place that accomodated Westerners and had www access.
This forum presents views and voices not found for the most part in mass media. I know how I felt when Clear Channel bought up so much radio, and suddenly I was no longer invited on any shows throughout Florida. The forced manufacture of consent through marginalizing those voices that don't march lockstep with the dominant culture is operating at a high gear. Thomas is being exposed to new ideas here, and you have to admit, even if he defends certain inculcated positions, he must be absorbing new thought processes by osmosis.
Imagine if the right wing could actually participate in a site like this and not scream obscenities, but maybe stop and listen, and learn something not only useful to themselves but of the substance of salvation for the nation, and thus most probably the world.
People like you who insist on their victimhood, their certain knowledge in their version of history no matter the records should give you pause.
I don't know anything else to say but you are a fool.
You, my friend are the one drowning, in your own hate. I feel sorry for you.
I though "Cuz" said that you were talking about "leaving the forum"--------
that's probably a good idea, since now you have been caught in a "misinformation"
And "you got" "misunderestimated" in your capacity for Bull Shit-------
I do not in the least insist on "victim hood"------
America and Americans are the victims------------at your own hands----
We will be here long after you and yours are "old memories"-------------
And "jesus" ain't coming back to save your worthless asses--------
"We will ride our horses through your empty cities-- and you will have emptied them"
Good Luck.
Sioux Rose,
do you not see that in your scattershot approach, where you basically try to blame anything and everything you do not like for the American support of torture, you are actually making it HARDER for those of us who oppose torture to argue against it? After all, if this, and that, and that, and that, and also that, and that too, is responsible for torture, then maybe torture isn't so bad after all?
Laying the blame for the support of torture on things like sports is weakens your argument.Many many sane and civil people worldwide, love a variety of sports; this includes leftists and progressives that are popular on CD. Many many people around the world love sports too, as much as Americans. Most countries do not go around waging war and torturing. It is possible to love sports, and oppose torture vehemently. Nelson Mandela was an avid sportsman when younger, and still loves sports, especially boxing. Dr Martin Luther King Jnr used to play basketball pretty avidly.
It is even possible to love sports, and love literature, music, the arts, too. Mind AND body are possible; no, not just possible, something to be aspired to: Mens sana in corpore sano. A manichean dichotomy is not necessary. Eduardo Galleano, the writer, has written a beautifully meandering book on soccer.
Sports doesn't just have to "us vs them". It can even be unifying, as people marvel at the grace, beauty, power, strength, dedication, courage and perseverance of an athlete. Especially when those qualities are demonstrated in the face of societal pressure and abuse: Jackie Robinson, when he broke the colour barrier in Major League Baseball, when he was subjected to death threats, threats to injure him from players and managers of opposing teams, and even disdain from his own teammates; or when those qualities are demonstrated by an athlete who courageously highlights injustice.
Muhammad Ali is an icon globally, more revered outside the US than in it. And while Tommie Smith and John Carlos and Peter Norman, have been forgotten and have their achievements swept under a carpet in the US, BUT, they are remembered by athletes and fans of athletics worldwide for their grace and courage.
Sport has often led the rest of society on certain issues of human rights. The intersection between sports and race in the US is undeniable.
Sport can be unifying, as people compete in sports against each other, and as athletes and fans see that the "Other" really isn't so different after all. That the "Other" is also human.
Furthermore, there is the age old debate about what constitutes "sport"? Is gymnastics sport? Figure skating on ice? Dance? The International Olympic Committee has recognised "dancesport", basically ballroom dancing, as a sport. There are even attempts to get "dancesport" into the Olympics. How about dance on ice?
As for porn, I will repeat my argument again: no one consents to being tortured. Binyam Mohamed did not agree to have his penis cut with a knife. Consent matters. A lot. It is one of the fundamental bases of (human) rights.
Sioux Rose
RFLOH: You did raise a case about sports that holds some legitimacy. I think you'd agree that we all argue through the prism that reflects our basic belief structures. In my case, it's astrology, and a way of seeing how ALL things connect. In contrast, whether due to significant planets in the list-oriented sign of Virgo, or a heavy Saturn (so letter of the law) you focus on where the parts are separate and succinct.
You like porn because you see it as a matter of personal preference or predilection, and you UTTERLY lost my respect in your argument in favor of it. You fail to see what it does to a society. Sports can hold grace, and can show team work, and some might say it represents a projection screen upon which massive anger can be safely deflected. However, the intense passion behind sports also sets up subliminals that include a very strong team identification, along with macho perceptions that speak in very violent terms. Following orders is important, and the uniform also plays a visual role in augumenting the illusory us versus them mentality. So if militarism is the ultimate goal, sports helps set that mindset into motion.
You are compassionate about the prisoner with his penis cut, but could care less about the female ejaculated upon by 50 men? Some values, sister. Actually, I have a feeling YOU are trans-gendered. Consent is a convoluted notion in a society based on a dominator culture. Mars rules style.
By the way, since you've distinguished yourself as an attack dog/prosecutor/self-determined facts checker in this forum, what exactly are YOUR credentials? Mine are clear, I've published them, and been published. What is your claim to immutable authority oh, so narrow-minded wonder man/woman/mix, whatever you are?
*sigh*.
You ASSUME that I like porn as a matter of personal preference or predilection.
My defense of porn has nothing to with whether I like porn or not. It has to with the issue of CONSENT. Consent matters. Certainly, consent is a convoluted issue. No one denies that. For example, how does one handle someone who has been diagnosed with a mental illness with regards to consent? What if a women gets physically beaten by her husband, yet she won't press charges, as often happens with wives of (rich) male pro sports stars? HOWEVER, just because the issue of CONSENT complicated doesn't mean that it is not fundamental to human rights. Once you utterly disregard the issue of consent, you significantly weaken the argument for universal human rights. You can dismiss consent as Mars rule style, what do you say to women who also like porn? To feminists who defend porn?
As for me focusing on parts that are separate and succinct, I am arguing AGAINST the kind of easy and succinct separation you are doing. I am arguing AGAINST the Manichean dichotomies you are using. It is why I typed out such a long post. I dislike simple and easy Manichean, black or white dichotomies intensely.
As for intense passion in sport,are you saying that athletes are more passionate than artists? Musicians? Writers? Talk to a classical pianist or violinist who spends 14 hours a day, everyday practicing, for the rest of his or her life, about passion.
The macho element certainly exists. It isn't necessary. It can often be, and often IS detrimental. An athlete who idiotically tries to be macho about an injury, about pain, doesn't tell the trainer about it, can risk his / her career.
Following orders, and obedience is necessary. But not just in sports. To acquire mastery in ANY field, including the arts, a certain degree of obedience is necessary. To quote Ursula Leguin, "a willingness to accept these notes as the right notes, this pattern as the true pattern, is the essential gesture of performance, translation, and understanding."
I am not denying that sport can be a tool to promote militarism. It certainly can be, and has been used that way. But, many tools can be used to promote militarism.
Sioux Rose
SIGH back at you. Ironic that you agree with me in areas, yet still feel the need to split hairs. Again, what are YOUR credentials? Your condescencion wreaks across the Atlantic.
You are assuming that all "porn stars" are there by choice and are "living the dream"...
Sadly, there are tens of thousands of sex slaves drugged up on coke and heroin by their handlers, that were abducted or sold into slavery, mostly from eastern Europe and Russia, and many others from Asia and Latin America...
Not all porn is "feel good" action either... BDSM & violent sex videos are growing in popularity, and there are the niche markets of kiddie porn, beastiality, and snuff films...
Sioux Rose
GOLDEN MEAN: Thank you. I find this argument for "freedom" about as compelling as selling shit and calling it organic nutrition. I lived in England for 6 months (and did shoot a photo-essay that had major showings in the U.S. some 30 years ago), and found the men UNABLE to hear anything but their own voices/points of view. The Brits are well-educated and have far better vocabularies than most Americans, but they are SO narrow-minded for the most part. However, there was and remains a segment that applies its intellectualism to the more metaphysical quest for meaning. The Theosophical Society and the early "salons" hosted by some profound thinkers come to mind.
Wow--quite a broad stereotyping of the Brits. I'd be careful of that.