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Libyan Fighters Declare Victory; Moamer Kadhafi Dead
LATEST NEWS FROM LIBYA:
An image captured off a mobile phone camera claims to show the body of Moamer Kadhafi in Sirte. Photograph: Philippe Desmazes/AFP/Getty Images 1905 GMT: With nightfall in Libya and world powers having reacted to the death of former strongman Moamer Kadhafi as his hometown fell, AFP is closing its Live Report.
1856 GMT: A French Mirage-2000 fired a warning shot to stop a convoy of vehicles carrying Moamer Kadhafi, French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet says.
The convoy of several dozen vehicles "was stopped from progressing as it sought to flee Sirte but was not destroyed by the French intervention," Longuet told journalists.
Libyan fighters then intervened, destroying the vehicles, from which "they took out Colonel Kadhafi," he added.
1827 GMT: Muhammad al-Senussi, the heir apparent in Libya's overthrown monarchy, said Kadhafi's death was a victory for peace, freedom and reform in his homeland.
Speaking from exile in London, the crown prince said a new chapter had begun in Libya's history.
"The flag of freedom is now flying in Sirte and across Libya on this historic day," he said, hailing the unity that helped "rid the country of evil".
"There will be challenges ahead as we seek to rebuild our country. But if we show to the world that we are committed to democratic change and continue to display the unity that has led to victory then Libya will succeed and prosper.
Libya's 1951 constitution created a constitutional monarchy with his great uncle, Idris al-Mahdi al-Senussi, as the king. He was overthrown by Kadhafi in 1969.
"Now is the time... to put the era of terror and oppression behind us," he said, making no mention of returning to Libya himself.
1824 GMT: US President Barack Obama:
"One year ago, the notion of a free Libya seemed impossible. But then the Libyan people rose up and demanded their rights.
And when Kadhafi and his forces started going city to city, town by town to brutalize men, women and children, the world refused to stand idly by.
Faced with the potential of mass atrocities, and a call for help from the Libyan people, the United States and our friends and allies stopped Kadhafi's forces in their tracks.
1816 GMT: "Today we can definitively say the Kadhafi regime has come to an end," says US President Barack Obama.
The last major regime strongholds have fallen. The new government is consolidating the control over the country. And one of the world's longest serving dictators is no more.
1802 GMT: AFP releases a video of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, seated for a television interview in Kabul, being handed her Blackberry by aide Huma Abedein and reading the news that Kadhafi had been captured.
Clinton, clearly surprised, says, "Wow. Hah." She quickly recovers and indicates the reports are, "unconfirmed."
"Yeah. Unconfirmed reports about Kadahfi being captured. Unconfirmed. Yeah, we've had too many, we've had a bunch of those before. You know we've had him captured a couple of times."
1755 GMT: Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki welcomes the news of Moamer Kadhafi's death, arguing his demise and that of Saddam Hussein were "proof of the potential of the people."
"We congratulate our Libyan brothers and the (National) Transitional Council on the occasion of getting rid of the tyrant Kadhafi, who ran Libya for four decades filled with oppression," Maliki's office says in a statement.
"The similarity of the fate of tyrants in Iraq and Libya and elsewhere is proof of the potential of the people to defeat dictators, however long they have been in power.
"They (the people of Libya) can take control and create their present and their future.
1753 GMT: French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet says French warplanes identified and "stopped" a convoy of vehicles carrying Moamer Kadhafi before he was killed in clashes in Libya.
Longuet tells reporters the convoy of several dozen vehicles "was stopped from progressing as it sought to flee Sirte but was not destroyed by the French intervention."
Libyan fighters then intervened, destroying the vehicles, from which "they took out Colonel Kadhafi," he says.
1743 GMT: Britain does not approve of "extradjudicial killing" but will not mourn Kadhafi, Foreign Secretary William Hague says after video emerged of the Libyan leader alive after his capture.
Hague says it was wrong to speculate about exactly what happened after television stations showed video of a bloodied Kadhafi alive and walking as he was being manhandled by Libyan fighters shortly before his death was announced.
"We are just seeing these images and of course at the moment we don't know about the exact circumstances of his death," Hague tells Sky News.
"We would have liked him to face justice for his crimes in a court, in an international or Libyan court, and we don't approve of extrajudicial killing," he adds.
"But we are not going to mourn him. There are so many thousands who have died in this conflict, and the end of the battle in Sirte and the death of Kadhafi does mark that big opportunity now for the Libyans to move on."
1738 GMT: President Barack Obama, who was to make a statement shortly, "will cite the fact that Libyan officials have announced Gaddafi's death. We have also received similar reports through diplomatic channels and have confidence in this reporting," a US official says.
1734 GMT: Canada wishes 'peace and reconciliation' for Libya after Kadhafi's death.
1715 GMT: World police body Interpol and the International Criminal Court (ICC) urges Seif al-Islam, Kadhafi's highest profile son and heir apparent, to give himself up and "face justice".
In a statement, the two institutions "urged the former Libyan leader's son Seif to give himself up and for the national authorities of the country where he is hiding to guarantee and facilitate his safe transfer to The Netherlands to face justice."
1709 GMT: "If the reports are true, I think it offers a new opportunity for Libya to move forward to the future," Clinton said as she and a US delegation sat down for talks with senior Pakistani officials in Islamabad.
1706 GMT: In the first word from a US official on reports of Kadhafi's death, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, in Pakistan for talks, said Libya can move into the future if the reports are true.
1704 GMT: France declares that the NATO operation will be 'over' when the NTC declares Libya liberated.
1703 GMT: US President Barack Obama will make a statement in the White House Rose Garden at 2:00 pm (1800 GMT) Thursday on Kadhafi's death, the White House said.
1655 GMT: Agence France-Presse was the first international media on Thursday to file an image of Kadhafi after the fall Sirte.
The shot was taken from the mobile phone of an anti-Kadhafi fighter by photographer Philippe Desmazes in the eastern Libyan city, who had asked some fighters to take him to the sight of what sounded like celebratory gunfire.
Desmazes said his lucky break came when he noticed another group of fighters nearby, eyes fixed on a mobile phone and decided to join them.
"I was lucky because I was the only one to notice them," he said. "The owner of the cell phone showed me (a video of) the arrest of Kadhafi which he had taken a few minutes earlier.
"The light at that time made it difficult to take a picture of the screen," he said.
But the fighters crowded around Desmazes providing him with enough shadow to snap the picture. "The fighters moved closer and created a shadow enabling me to take a picture ... I was very lucky."
1637 GMT: In Rome, the Vatican prayed for "peace in the country and democracy," after the fall of Libya's dictator.
"We have to work for the Libyan people and so that everybody will cooperate towards the reconstruction" of the strife-torn country, Vatican's number two, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said.
1630 GMT: In Tunisia, hundreds took to the streets of Tunis to celebrate Kadhafi's death. Tunisia, which gave rise to the Arab Spring uprisings, will hold its first post-revolution vote at the weekend.
Cars drove through the centre of the capital hooting their horns, pumping out party music and flying the Libyan flag, as hundreds gathered outside the Libyan embassy to chant victory slogans.
"The tyrant has been killed", "The blood of martyrs did not flow in vain" and "Just desserts", chanted the mixed Libyan-Tunisian crowd.
1614 GMT: The families of the victims of Pan Am 103 reacted to reports of Kadhafi's death or capture with some hope that justice can be served.
"Unfortunately, the path to justice is often long and circuitous. Although today is a great day for the Libyan people and for the universal fight for freedom, our work is not done...
"And, if Kadhafi has been captured, we need to be certain that he is brought to trial, convicted and spends the rest of his life in prison.
Nevertheless, we will take a moment today to honor our family members: In their memory, we did not give up. We kept fighting for them and for some semblance of justice. Today, we take some satisfaction that justice can be done.
1555 GMT: Two of the five Bulgarian nurses imprisoned in Libya for eight years over an HIV scandal have welcomed news of Moamer Kadhafi's death saying the Libyan strongman had "got what he deserved".
"The news made me very happy. It's a punishment. A dog like him deserved to die like a dog," Valya Chervenyashka told AFP in Sofia.
The nurses were tortured and twice sentenced to death under Kadhafi's regime.
Valentina Siropolu, another of the nurses who were freed in 2007, said: "I am really happy, I was expecting it. He got what he deserved."
However two others, Snezhana Dimitrova and Kristiana Valcheva, struck a different note.
"I would have been happy if he had been captured alive too," said Valcheva.
"I can't be happy about anyone's death, even my enemy," added Dimitrova.
All five said they wanted Libya's new leaders to exonerate them.
1510 GMT: French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe says France is "proud" to have helped bring freedom to Libya, referring to the role of French forces in NATO action in the North African country during the seven-month conflict there.
"The announcement of the death of Kadhafi and the collapse of Sirte is the end of a very difficult period for the Libyan people," Juppe told reporters in New Delhi.
"It's the end of 42 years of tyranny, of a military conflict that has been very difficult for the Libyan people.
"It's a historic event. It's the beginning of a new period, of a democracy, freedom and the rebuilding of the country.
"France is proud to have helped the Libyan people," he added.
1503 GMT: "I think today is a day to remember all of Colonel Kadhafi's victims", including those who died in the 1988 bombing of a Pan Am jet over the Scottish town of Lockerbie, British Prime Minister David Cameron says in a statement outside 10 Downing Street.
Cameron also hailed Kadhafi's death as a chance for a "democratic future" for Libya.
1442 GMT: French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe has hailed the 'end of tyranny' in Libya following news of the death of Libyan strongman Moamer Kadhafi, who was killed in his hometown Sirte earlier Thursday.
1422 GMT: Senior US Senator John McCain says the death of Moamer Kadhafi marks the end of "the first phase" of Libya's revolution and called for closer ties between Washington and Tripoli.
"The death of Moamer Kadhafi marks an end to the first phase of the Libyan revolution. While some final fighting continues, the Libyan people have liberated their country," the Republican lawmaker said in a statement.
1410 GMT: A mobile phone video purporting to show Kadhafi's dead body spread like wild fire among National Transitional Council fighters in Sirte before the strongman's death was officially announced.
The blurry video, which were viewed by an AFP correspondent, showed what appeared to be Kadhafi's corpse, dressed in khaki, with blood oozing from his face and neck before fighters drag and load it onto a pick up truck.
"We have taken revenge. Let him go to hell," said fighter Ali Urfulli.
1405 GMT: News that Libyan strongman Moamer Kadhafi waskilled in his hometown Sirte on Thursday has sparked scenes of wild joy in the ranks of new regime fighters who had crushed his final bastion of support.
"We did it! We did it!" chanted the fighters as they exchanged well-wishes, hugs and handshakes against a backdrop of intense celebratory gunfire.
"We finished Kadhafi and his people," said fighter Ali Urfulli.
1352 GMT: "I am happy I will be visiting a country fully liberated from a dictator who has imposed his iron fist for more than 40 years. Now Libya can truly turn the page," says European Parliament president Jerzy Buzek, who will begin a visit Libya on Saturday.
1340 GMT: The death of Moamer Kadhafi marks the 'end of an era of despotism', European Union president Herman Van Rompuy says in Brussels.
1327 GMT: An NTC commander says that Moamer Kadhafi's son Mutassim has also been found dead in Sirte.
1312 GMT: NATO aircraft struck two pro-Kadhafi military vehicles in the vicinity of the Libyan city of Sirte on Thursday morning, a spokesman for the alliance said in Brussels.
"At approximately 0830 local time (GMT+2) today, NATO aircraft struck two pro-Kadhafi forces military vehicles which were part of a larger group manoeuvring in the vicinity of Sirte," NATO spokesman Colonel Roland Lavoie said in a statement.
1301 GMT: Veteran Libyan strongman Moamer Kadhafi has been killed by new regime forces in their final assault on the last pocket of resistance in his hometown Sirte, a National Transitional Council (NTC) spokesman has said.
"We announce to the world that Kadhafi has been killed at the hands of the revolution," Abdel Hafez Ghoga said.
"It is an historic moment. It is the end of tyranny and dictatorship. Kadhafi has met his fate," he added.
1256 GMT: A military chief with Libya's new regime NTC says Moamer Kadhafi's birthplace of Sirte has been liberated.
1250 GMT: A spokesman for Libya's new regime National Transitional Council (NTC) says Moamer Kadhafi is dead.
1240 GMT: The AFP photograph of a mobile phone camera image shows what appears to be a heavily bloodied Moamer Kadhafi during his capture in the fall of his hometown Sirte
In the grainy image, a man bearing a strong resemblance to Kadhafi is seen with blood-soaked clothing and blood daubed across his face.
1225 GMT: AFP has obtained an image which appears to show a bloodied Kadhafi captured in Sirte.
1215 GMT: Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said the war in Libya is 'over', my colleagues in Rome report ANSA news agency as saying.
1207 GMT: The US government says it is unable to substantiate reports that deposed Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi has been captured or killed.
"The State Department cannot at this time confirm media reports on the capture or killing of Moamer Kadhafi," State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland said in a statement.
Senior administration and Pentagon officials said they were working to verify the reports.
1200 GMT: More from pro-Kadhafi Al-Libiya television's website which is denying reports that the strongman had been killed or captured.
"The reports peddled by the lackeys of NATO about the capture or death of the brother leader, Moamer Kadhafi, is baseless," said.
Kadhafi "is in good health," it added.
1155 GMT: In Sirte, medics said the defence minister in Kadhafi's ousted regime, Abu Bakr Yunis, had been killed in the final battle for the strongman's hometown.
His body was identified at the field hospital where it was brought in a pick-up truck on Thursday, Dr Abdu Rauf told AFP.
1145 GMT: My colleagues in Moscow report Russian President Dmitry Medvedev as saying Kadhafi's fate should be decided by the Libyan people.
1142 GMT: A pro-Kadhafi television website has denied the ousted strongman has been killed or captured.
1140 GMT: Reports of Kadhafi's capture emerged this morning. "He has been captured. He is badly wounded, but he is still breathing," Mohamed Leith, a commander with the NTC former rebels, told AFP, Leith said he had seen Kadhafi himself and that the former leader was wearing a khaki uniform and a turban.
Libyan TV channel "Libya lil Ahrar" also said that Kadhafi was in custody.
WELCOME TO AN AFP LIVE REPORT ON LIBYA
Stay with us for all the developments as they unfold.
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222 Comments so far
Show AllNATO's coup d'etat is now complete and the oil companies can breathe easier and get a better deal from the new gang of thugs.
NATO under US leadership = Murder Incorporated arm of the Mafia with a little help from out-of-town contractors brought in for the kill. Guess they didn't want to replicate their Usama take-out MO too closely. See also "The Killing of Awlaki’s 16-year-old Son." http://www.salon.com/2011/10/20/the_killing_of_awlakis_16_year_old_son/
Better ensure that your protection payments are up to date. I understand that American citizens are no longer immune.
It is very surprising of how many of the progressive minded here at CD would have preferred Gaddafi was still in power.... It is surprising at how many do not honor the wishes of the vast majority of Libyan citizens, who desired that Gadaffi step down,,, something he refused to do and a Civil War ensued.
It is surprising of how many fail to accept the (fact) that the citizens of Libya requested the UN to step in and assist them in their civil war to oust a corrupt 42 year kiong obviously crazy dictator, who had robbed them of more than nine billion dollars for his own pleasures... The UN honored the citizens request.
It is surprising that so many believev we are now gong to steal Libya's oil.
It is surprising that so many do not wish to see the citizens of Libya have a chance at freedom from oppression and a chance at a democracy, with freedom of speech, fair elections, no more of Gaddafi's thousand+ hired murdering criminal mercenaries, no more fear of even walking past Gadaffi's massive green walled fortress and torture chambers in Tripoli.
One thing is certain, Gaddafi won't be taking the nine billion with him..Those banked funds were siezed and will be turned over to the new government of Libya.
Will the citizens of Libya have a democratic form of government, fair elections, a much better life now that Gaddafi is gone?___ We'll see... Give tthen that opportunity and chance and allow them to sell their oill to whomever they please .
How many here supported the will and dictatorship of Gaddafi?__ Quite a few. Amazing.
"It is surprising that so many believev we are now gong to steal Libya's oil."
Umm, Wayne, it's what we do.
In.
every.
damn.
case.
As for the rest, got any free and fair referenda to back any of that up? The truth is, as always, much simpler: If you were a member of Gaddafi's tribe, you liked him. If you weren't, you didn't, and probably had good reason not to. But even some of them may be wishing Gaddafi back in a few years, because, just as with post-Saddam Iraq,
"Give tthen that opportunity and chance and allow them to sell their oill to whomever they please"
--we're not going to be giving them that opportunity and chance, and it will be Western multinationals selling their oil. And why?
Because it's what we do.
In.
every.
damn.
case.
Well~corvo~ I respectfully disagree, it is what we did in Iraq for certain and Iraq is not Libya... You are not by chance "cherry picking" from all I wrote are you?
Would you have preferred Gaddafi stayed in power?
Rush Limb-baww, Rick Perry and other far, far to the right wing nuts would have.
Oh, you think that President BP Bitch is going to behave any differently than President Enron? As for your false binary question, I would've preferred that Libyans settled their own affairs without our "humanitarian intervention" that wasn't.
"Would you have preferred Gaddafi stayed(sic) in power."?
Will you admit that this is a false, leading question employed as a rhetorical trick to twist other's opinions and the conversation with the goal of repressing free speech and inquiry?
or...
If the big Methane Gas Monster is gonna kill us all Wayne, why do you care SO much about "Gaddafi"?
So much that you can be reliably found on every thread that mentions Libya -any day of the week- performing stunts like the above?
Yes and in every thread that mentions Libya, I see ~matti~ corvo~, and several others who are fully aware that if the UN had not taken action, Gaddafi would have killed any and all who were against him and his corrupt and evil dictatorial rule..
My question of (do you suppoer Gaddafi) is a fair question. You either do or you do not. You cannot stand on one side of a fence or an issue and claim you are not there.
As to your bringing up the issue of the very serious Arctic methane threat on this thread... Do you believe it is not the most serious issue humanity has ever faced in recorded history? I don't just coment on single issues ~matti~,,,, and neither do you. So your attempted point is as unreasonable and sensless as your others.
I don't care about Gaddafi at all ~matti~ ... I care about some friends of ours who are Libyans and the citizens of Libya... Why are you always posting comments about the Libyan affair in support of Gaddafi ~matti~?
"Yes and in every thread that mentions Libya, I see ~matti~ corvo~, and several others who are fully aware that if the UN had not taken action"
The UN approved a no-fly zone. That's not what the public mercenary forces of Big Oil proceeded to enforce.
And the rest of your post is similarly worthless. Touching in its cluelessness, in a way -- now that Big Oil has its tentacles around Libya's wealth, expect the methane release to INCREASE. Perhaps you can even figure out why and how.
And there you display your ignorance ~corvo~. Read the entire UN mandate and attempt to comprehend what it says.
None of the thirty + members of the UN who voted opposed the UN action,,, which (very clearly) reads a (no fly) zone will be enforced by NATO,,,, any action may be taken which is necessary to prevnet Gaddafi forces from committing genocide,, including the use of ground troops (if necessary),, and to take military action against any of Gaddafi's ground forces,,,, and NO (ocupation) forces will be allowed.... All of which was complied with by the NATO forces.
I am fully aware of why the Arctic methane will increase escaping and it is due to global warming from burning fossil fuels... That has nothing at all to do wlth the Civil War in Lbya ~corvo~. and you know it.
Had there never been any protests in LIbya, no Civil War, it would have had zip to do with what is occurring in the Arctic... Strawman tactics by you don't fly here either corvo.
You're rather proving my point, in that NATO then found itself magically authorized to do whatever it wanted, because Gaddafi's continued breathing was thus construed to be a genocidal act. Otherwise:
"I am fully aware of why the Arctic methane will increase escaping and it is due to global warming from burning fossil fuels... That has nothing at all to do wlth the Civil War in Lbya ~corvo~. and you know it."
You're either incurably dense or a liar. The whole purpose of the adventure was to steal Libyan resources, so that its oil may now flow more freely and profitably on the market. More oil -> more consumption -> more global methane release.
That, and your support for trashing the environment -- what else can you call a resource-wasting predatory resource war? -- exposes you for the anti-environmentalist you really are.
What you are claiming ~~corvo~, is if there had been no Civil War in Libya the oil from Libya would not have been sold and used.. Are you really that stupid?
Your obnoxious attacks against me, one who has very stronly and almost daily promoted clean energy, and no nukes for the past 25+ years, is a damn lie of yours ~corvo~ . You are a dishonest person who will say anything against any who have a different opinion from yours. You may rave on now, write your lies and say whatever you wish.
"What you are claiming ~~corvo~, is if there had been no Civil War in Libya the oil from Libya would not have been sold and used.. Are you really that stupid?"
You might wish to consult a dictionary for the definition of "more." Otherwise, I submit that you think the rest of us are even more stupid than we do.
And what lie? War is environmentally devastating. You supported war. Man up and own it.
I fully supported the Civil War of the citizens of Libya. I never supported any others since Bush Jr. Your MORE is a false argument of what you have falsely charged me with corvo . Stuff it,, you are nothing but a blathering. obtuse and dishonest bore.
re: "I fully supported the Civil War of the citizens of Libya."
Apparently, you don't support, or read credible news sources about what's really going on there.
You assume wrong ~Salusa Secundus~. I don't accept the Fox news or Limbaw's BS about Libya however.
If you think this is a boon to any democratic forces in Libya, think again. This is a boon to the oligarchs, and not much more. Yes, Gaddafi was a creep, but our creeps are far more creepy than he was.
In any case, I still encourage your contributions to CD, Wayne... a dialog is nothing without a difference of opinion — So long as you are not, and I doubt that you are, a plant for the opposition, your posts are welcome, and an important component of what should be our *chorus of voices* of opposition to the madness.
In other words, I don't think you're right -here-, but I certainly don't think you are not the 'enemy', and recall that on many other occasions, you've been right there with the rest of us calling for valid opposition and resistance to the false memes of the hegemons...
IOW, You're all right in my book WWR....
Cheers (and damn these typos which completely negate the meaning of my posts!)
So Wayne did you believe Bush's bullshit when he said he was "overthrowin'" an "evil" dictator in Iraq, or did you rightly see it as a U.S. war of aggression, just like the Libya war was? Partisan relativism when it come to mass murder of poor third world people to steal their resources make me ill!
Vomit!
Puke away ~puker~,, take a bath.. I never ever supported Bush Jrs illegal, unjust wars. He and his team should be in prison.. Btw ~puker~, Libya is not Iraq. Maybe you are unaware of that fact. The Civil War was not an invasion, the NATO military action was sanctioned by the UN and more than 20 countries who all voted yes. Never mind puke, just keep vomiting till your brains run out of your ears. Whatever makes you happy is perfectly alright with me.
There was never a U.N. mandate to overthrow Libya's government that was an illegal action by NATO. Nor did Obama get authorization for use of force as required by article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution. That is why Mr. Constitutional scholar lies and calls in a "kinetic military action," and not a war. This is just a another illegal U.S. intervention in a sovereign countries affairs in a long line of illegal interventions.
http://killinghope.org/
If people want to rebel against what they perceive as unjust authority that is their fight, not ours. For example Occupy Wall St. is our non violent fight as Americans, and not something that calls for foreign power to intervene and make it a bloody war.
Correct, there is nothng in the UN mandate that says to overthorw the Libyan government... It says prevent Gaddafi from committing genocide and that is what NATO forces accomplished.
The people of Libya overthew their corrupt government.
re: "The people of Libya overthew their corrupt government. "
Disingenuous, and not true. NATO, and US predator drones did the deed. This was by no means 'a People's Revolution'.
Agree 100% Libya's government would have never been overthrown without U.S. air "support" and British troops on the ground directing that firepower. This was a imperialist grab for nationalized oil the money from which was used to build water infrastructure and other needs like healthcare IMO. Not that Ghadaffi was a saint, he wasn't, but the situation is MUCH more complicated then the U.S. government propaganda stenographic media presented it.
"Yes and in every thread that mentions Libya, I see ~matti..."
No you don't. Pass 'em by all the time in fact.
"...if the UN had not taken action..."
How am I supposed to think of you as an honest interlocutor after this? Only children would think that "the UN" is anything other than a tool that the actors have used here.
"...Gaddafi would have killed any and all who were against him..."
The guy has been doing this since a decade before I was BORN. Now it matters this much? Now he must be stopped? The US has had the power to destroy this man and his regime ever since he and it began. Why now do they at last do it? Sudden attack of conscious?
"My question of (do you suppoer Gaddafi) is a fair question. You either do or you do not. You cannot stand on one side of a fence or an issue and claim you are not there."
HA! Does it become so because you declare it so? No, I am afraid not. You can't build a fence -as a DISTRACTION FROM THE POINT- and then demand that I put myself on either side of it. Not how it works.
"Do you believe it (The Methane Monster) is not the most serious issue humanity has ever faced in recorded history?"
Absolutely immaterial! ;) This is EXACTLY what you did with the "Gaddafi support question" trick -thanks for demonstrating it again so quickly! This is what you do: respond to a question with a counter question that not only attempts to re-frame the original question to your advantage, but also to put the questioner on the defensive and make them look bad to any possible audience -thus scoring more points, hopefully.
My point -of course- is that it is illogical to have such a fear of the Methane Monster and be SO passionate about "Gaddafi". Taken alone each passion might appear understandable and honest, but taken together they don't appear so to me. You are not just concerned about the Methane Monster, you are ludicrously over-the-top, chicken-little-the-sky-is-falling afraid of it, and you try to spread that fear to others here every chance you can. You are not just pissed at the Gaddafi Monster, you are ludicrously over-the-top, berserker-in-a-blood-rage angry at him, and you try to prevent any from being angry at any one else but him every time you post about it.
You say this is just you posting on different issues. Well, I just don't buy it. But wait...
"...I care about some friends of ours who are Libyans and the citizens of Libya."
That's the reason then? Maybe I'll buy that. But wait again...
"Why are you always posting comments about the Libyan affair in support of Gaddafi ~matti~?"
OOPS, just lost the sale! ;)
Where's my "support" for Gaddafi, Wayne?
I tell you what, I'll believe you aren't full of it when you:
a) quote me supporting Gaddafi.
b) apologize for gross misrepresentation of my words, repent, and work to be a better CDer. ;)
Well?
You were on every Libya thread I posted on ~matti~. So how do you claim I am on every one if you weren't there also.... I gotta leave for the day so you have soap box matti.
You asked me matti,,, ("Where's my "support" for Gaddafi, Wayne?") Did I say you do? You do not supprt the citizens of Libya who opposed Gaddagfi,,, that is clearly obviious, as you attack me for supporting them.. So whose side are you on matti?_ Neither?_ That is a fair question ~matti~.
I'm very glad to see the citizens of Libya oust Gaddafi and have their fair opportunity and chance of freedom and a better life.... Whatever you desire is your business matti.
Oh, and tell us all exactly which countries and how exactly they are (*stealing*) the Libyan oil... Throw ya later matti, goota leave now..
"Oh, and tell us all exactly which countries and how exactly they are (*stealing*) the Libyan oil..."
Never wrote that.
Not anywhere.
So are you just confused here, or what?
I'll just leave my response at that since by this point the rest of your tricks in this post should be obvious to those following this. ;)
I never said you did say it ~matti~. .. I asked is you could tell us who will be stealng the Libyan oil.... I actually probably should have asked that of ~corvo~ and several others who do say it. .
Yeah, probably should have. ;)
Gonna answer any of my other questions or own up for any of the other tricks I've pointed out?
Or even pull a dodge like this one?
And I thought you were leaving for the day?
Hurray for the Al Queda and CIA backed central bank building "rebels," who shoot people without trials. Woo hoo, the MSM said it was a win, so it must be so, they'd never lie to us would they Wayne?
You are the kind of cluleless simpleton who believes the MSM when it says Libya had a revolution and the U.S. doesn't have one with OWS aren't you Wayne? Keep on being a good German and believing state propaganda but don't be surprised if many of us here laugh at you if you do so. I guess some people probably believed Pravda in 1987, eh? Now why don't you tell us with great big naive, blinking, wet, bright eyes that OIly Bomber is "Change you can believe in." for your next act, and how we must vote for him as a "lesser evil," that one always cracks up the kids back at activist tents at OWS with it's laughable absurdity, and we could all use a good laugh about now!
Sigh!
Well ~puker~, the citizens of Libya did have a Civil War. I support the citizens of Libya who desired Gaddafi to step down, which he refused to do and the Civil War erupted. It wasn't us that started that war puker, it was your obvious choice King Gaddafi.
If you have ever read any of my long ago posts, I have stated Obama is the modern day Pied Piper. I first wrote that during his primary campaign... I did agree with his opinon on the Libya issue and a few othe things, not much. I don't agree with any of the GOPers, I fully support having a decent third party candidate and have also said that many times here.
I have also fully supported (us), the 99%, ever since it first began and have stated many times that big business, which includes our corrupt MSN is the dictator of our now fascist form of government.. So puke that one up too bud.
The only reason I bother to reply to your type of (assuming) childish brats, who charge others with false crap is becaue I find it necesary to do so when punks who don't have the brans or intelligence to debate an issue intellingently or honestly and toss their lying crap from a safe distance.
You are the one lacking "brans" and evidence. Al Queda "rebel" ties.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23947
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/76789,news-comment,news-politics,alexander-cockburn-libya-rebels-gaddafi-could-be-right-about-al-qaeda
CNN praises Libyan Islamic suicide bomber.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HBq3CeCDmK4
Hurray for backing Islamic extremists when they are our bad guys, that always works out well does it?
CIA ties:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMOtC9zGQHI
(CNN interview with ex-CIA says CIA on ground in Libya)
Just more U.S. imperialism a shame you O-bots can't see that when your guy does it. Imperialism is not "less evil" when done by a Dim.
Sigh!
I'm back ~matti~ to reply at your request.
Reply to ~matti~ who first posted the following and I had not mentioned the name ~matti~.. I had replied only to ~corvo~.
~matti~~ wrote ,,, (“Would you have preferred Gaddafi stayed(sic) in power."?
Will you admit that this is a false, leading question employed as a rhetorical trick to twist other's opinions and the conversation with the goal of repressing free speech and inquiry?
….. or... If the big Methane Gas Monster is gonna kill us all Wayne, why do you care SO much about "Gaddafi"?
So much that you can be reliably found on every thread that mentions Libya -any day of the week- performing stunts like the above?”)…End matti’s comments to me.
First of all ~matti~,,,, that is a fair and reasonable question I asked of corvo… You say it isn’t a fair question and so on.
Then you wrote that I had posted comments on every single thread which mentioned Libya… That isn’t true, I passed on several … So why should I reply to any questions you ask of me? I should ignore you entirely, as you are both unreasonable and dishonest.
You ~matti~ brought up the issue of the Arctic methane,, not I…. But I replied to your off the wall comment about that, so now you reply to that with,, (“Absolutely immaterial! ;) This is EXACTLY what you did with the "Gaddafi support’)…. I agree you bringing up the Arctic methane issue was immaterial… (My reply) to your of the wall immaterial comments was not immaterial as you now state.
You then wrote,,, ("Why are you always posting comments about the Libyan affair in support of Gaddafi ~matti~?" ___ Where did I ask you that question on this thread ~matti~?
You wrote,,,, (“Yes and in every thread that mentions Libya, I see ~matti..."
No you don't. Pass 'em by all the time in fact… So do I matti,,, but the three others I recall l posted comments on,, I recall you were there posting comments also.. The primary point there is,, I was replying to your false comment that I posted on every one of them.
You wrote,,,,(“...Gaddafi would have killed any and all who were against him..."
The guy has been doing this since a decade before I was BORN. Now it matters this much? Now he must be stopped?”)……~matti~~,, This was the first time during the past 42 years that the citizens of Libya were involved in a Civil War with Gaddafi and they requested support from the UN,, so now it matters this much matti.
You want to know something ~matti~? __ I do not believe that you are that stupid, so you must have some personal agenda to be writing such stupid crap as that… So I will try to just ignore you from now on.
I would have preferred a real revolution by and for the people of Libya, not just another 'revolution' of the West's grinding juggernaut wheel of war and expropriation.
"How fortunate it is for governments that the people don't think." -- Adolf Hitler
"Some people would rather die than think; if fact most do." - Bertrand Russell -
"Some people would rather die than think; if fact most do." - Bertrand Russell -
What is not surprising is to see neo-con/neo-lib shills for imperialism like you show with false dilemmas like a choice between tyranny and imperialism. The real choice is to support non violent peoples revolutions not astroturf operations where yes the oil companies and central banks HAVE ALREADY moved in for the kill!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Oil_Corporation
(Old nationalized oil system with profit sharing)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204618704576643193899780636.html
(The new reality)
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Libyan_Rebels_Form_Their_Own_Central_Bank
(Libyan rebels form central bank in the middle of a bloody civil war, that's what all authentic peoples uprisings do isn't it, think about how to benefit the Wall St. investment class first?)
Sigh!!!!!
Thank you Rush,,,, I fully understand where you are coming from... You would have preferred Gaddafi stayed in power... Go there to Libya and walk in the shoes of the vast majority of the citizens who loved what the UN allowed the NATO forces to do in support of their fight for feeedom.
And as to oil companies "going in for the kill", that is right wing propaganda...The oil companies who dealt with Gaddafi have gone in to repair the facilities Gaddafi forces tore up and they will be buying the oil from Libya as before, only Gaddafi won't benefit as you seem to wish.
You obviously don't wish to see the people of Libya have a fair chance for a far better government and freedom from a 42 year rule of a crazy dictator... That is your choice, mine is for the people of Libya to have their chance... Whatever happens now will be up to the citizens of Libya.. not Gaddafi and his sons... Which other world dictators' do you approve of?
And I will grant you the fact that so far democracy isn't perfect and our democracy here in America is in serious jeapordy of total ruin, as we are now a fascist form of government... Perhaps the Libyans will have learned from our errors... We'll see. .
It is funny that you both accuse each other of being "right wing"!
Which one is it? ;)
"Whatever happens now will be up to the citizens of Libya."
Are there sexy fairy chicks in your dreamland? There are in mine. ;)
This B.S. statement isn't even true in the usual stretched sense where "citizens of Libya" means "the Libyan Elite"!
Funny how you accuse me of attempting to supress "free speech'' ~matte~, but you decry my posting my opinons here.
I sure don't, nor have I ever supported those such as a corrupt Rick Perry, the Tea Partiers, the Bush/Cheney cartel. Rush-Limberbrain and other Far rrght wingnuts who opposed the UN action in Liobya.
If the Libyans do not end up wiht a fair democratic form of government, then they fought, bled and died for nothing.... How will it turn out.. No one knows yet,,, I believe they will do good, you don't ~matti~... We'll see.
"Funny how you accuse me of attempting to supress "free speech'' ~matte~, but you decry my posting my opinons here."
Funny, I haven't seen any calls for your being banned here, Wayne, and anyway there are no free speech rights on a privately owned blog. So what the hell are you talking about?
He's "talking about" (read "employing a distorted version of for rhetorical gain") my response to his "Gaddafi support question".
Honestly corvo, you're wasting your breath trying to debate with Wayne. Go back to earlier CD articles here when we first invaded Libya, and you will find dozens of pro-invasion, pro-US-interference, rah-rah-rah-U.S.-is-the-good-guy-just-trying-to-save-Libyan-lives-and-bring-democracy-to-the-poor-Libyans bullplop from Wayne. He's entitled to his opinion - as droolingly nationalistic, naive, and U.S.-exceptionalistic as it may be. But trying to get Wayne to see the truth about the U.S.'s involvement in Libya is like trying to get an Obama-bot to see that their messiah is actually a corporate whore. Although they might both be one and the same.
Uhh, ~corvo~~ it was Matti who charged that I was trying to prevent (free speech)... I was replying to that false charge of matti's,,, where he/she wrote to me ,,,,, ("Will you admit that this is a false, leading question employed as a rhetorical trick to twist other's opinions and the conversation with the goal of repressing free speech and inquiry?")... end matti's quote.
And no,,, I would not admit that the very fair and reasonable question I asked you corvo,,, (would you prefer Gaddafi stayed in power?).... That is a fair queston with no goal of repressing free speech.
So it isn't sexy fairy chicks in your dreamland then?
Instead it is populated by furtive, nasty trolls, isn't it?
All too common here. ;(
I hereby state that I have not intended to, am not intending to, and will never intend to -or actually- "decry" anyone posting here however they wish.
So post away! Do not let little ol' me stop you.
But be aware that I may also post -within the rules, of course- responses to your posts that may -when applicable- include refutations, dissents, or dissections, to, from, and of, your posts' content.
(Its the latest thing, they're thinking of calling it "discourse".)
Clear now?
"...I believe they will do good, you don't ~matti~."
Really? What do you base your assertion of my supposed belief on? It can't be my words. Because I have never used those to express that belief. Is it the residents of your dreamland? Did they tell you that is what I believe? They are wrong, Wayne. Stop listening to them.
Again: I'll believe that you believe what you say you believe when you stop trying to tell me -and really other readers- what I believe in an attempt to discredit me and distract everyone else.
Whaddya say, pal? ;)
Neo-lib oil wars impress me not one bit more than neo-con oil wars, and sadly the O-bots are if anything bigger true believers than even the Bush bots were. I can't wait for the revolution which from what I can see is going to shock the O-bots even more than the Bush-bots.
re: "the people of Libya have a fair chance for a far better government and freedom from a 42 year rule of a crazy dictator..
You may be right, but for now, I believe you are living in a fantasy. Is Afghanistan better off now that the US has come in to improve human and women's rights? Riiiight.
Is Iraq really better off now, as opposed to before Operation Iraqi Liberation began? Last time I checked, Iraq was one of the more advanced Muslim nations in terms of infrastructure and social improvements (for Ba'athists primarily, but in general as well) before our invasion. Certainly, many horrors existed then, but the horrors have been multiplied TENFOLD since our invasion, not alleviated whatsoever by our presence and 'guidance'.
So, on this topic, I will for now be siding far more with guitarist's argument than yours. I think you're just telling yourself the comforting truths you want to hear.
"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
—Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
"Is Afghanistan better off now that the US has come in to improve human and women's rights?"
This is the question that must be kept in mind at all times. It is far too early to draw any sort of conclusions about the wisdom of this military intervention, which we will really only be able to make in 5-10 years' time.
All we can really do is form opinions and predictions based on what we know about history, as well as verifiable cultural and political realities. And if history is any guide (which it is), the negative consequences of war nearly always outweigh the benefits. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Gaddafi was a good guy who should remain in power forever, but what any thinking person should be doing is A) questioning the motives of western intervention (which are never altruistic) and B) performing a cost-benefit analysis of this intervention.
A war can only be considered just if it does more good than harm, and I don't think anyone can possibly determine that at this point. For one thing, there has been absolutely no discussion of how many civilians have been killed by the NATO-backed rebels, but what is clear is that Sirte has been decimated. There is no one left in that city, so it's pretty clear that the toll on civilians has been high.
The larger spider has eaten the smaller one. Should the flies rejoice?
"How many here supported the will and dictatorship of Gaddafi?__ Quite a few. Amazing."
Complete, utter, disingenuous bullshit. Not believing the authenticity of the NTC, mainly because it was (selectively) supported by Western powers, doesn't equate to liking and supporting Gaddaffi. Criticising and doubting "rebels" backed by previous colonial powers is not equal to supporting Gaddaffi. Doubting the people who spread apparently false rumours about rape squads, while not really handling dark skinned people very equitably, is not equal to supporting Gaddaffi.
"It is surprising of how many fail to accept the (fact) that the citizens of Libya requested the UN to step in and assist them in their civil war to oust a corrupt 42 year kiong obviously crazy dictator, who had robbed them of more than nine billion dollars for his own pleasures... The UN honored the citizens request. "
That was so fucking nice from the UN, which is always about "citizens requests" of course. Do you really believe this crap?
"Will the citizens of Libya have a democratic form of government, fair elections, a much better life now that Gaddafi is gone?___ We'll see... Give tthen that opportunity and chance and allow them to sell their oill to whomever they please . "
No one sane, with any knowledge of history, should believe that the West will give them a chance to do so.
"It is surprising that so many do not wish to see the citizens of Libya have a chance at freedom from oppression and a chance at a democracy, with freedom of speech, fair elections, no more of Gaddafi's thousand+ hired murdering criminal mercenaries, no more fear of even walking past Gadaffi's massive green walled fortress and torture chambers in Tripoli. "
Fuck off. It is not at all that people "do not wish to see the citizens of Libya have a chance at freedom from oppression and a chance at a democracy" at all. People simply do not believe, with every fucking right considering the history of Western interventions, that eliminating Gaddaffi in this way supported this goal or that the people getting the power now, supported by Western interests, are really representative of the Libyan population. Stop misinterpreting and distorting people's intentions.