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US, Karzai Clash on Unconditional Talks with Taliban
KABUL - On the surface, it would seem unlikely that Afghan President Hamid Karzai, who presides over a politically feeble government and is highly dependent on the U.S. military presence and economic assistance, would defy the United States on the issue of peace negotiations with the leadership of the Taliban insurgency.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai adjusts his hat during a news conference in Kabul January 31, 2010. (REUTERS/Ahmad Masood) But a long-simmering conflict between Karzai and key officials of the Barack Obama administration over that issue came to a head at last week's London Conference, when the Afghan president refused to heed U.S. signals to back off his proposal to invite the Taliban leaders to participate in a nationwide peace conference.
The peace negotiations issue is embedded in a deeper conflict over U.S. war strategy, which has provoked broad anger and increasing suspicions of U.S. motives among Afghans, including Karzai himself.
The current source of tension is Karzai's proposal, first made last November, to invite Taliban leaders - including Mullah Omar - to a national "Loya Jirga" or "Grand Council" meeting aimed at achieving a peace agreement.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton responded by pressing Karzai to demand far-reaching concessions from the Taliban in advance of the meeting. Clinton's conditions on Taliban participation included renunciation of al Qaeda and of violence and acceptance of the Afghan constitution, conditions that would make it impossible for leaders of the insurgency to agree if they are interpreted literally.
On Nov. 23, Clinton said the United States had "urged caution and real standards that are expected to be met by anyone who is engaged in these conversations, so that whatever process there is can actually further the stability and peace of Afghanistan, not undermine it."
Instead, Karzai publicly asked the United States to join in talks with the Taliban. Following the issuance of a statement by Mullah Omar on Nov. 25 that implied the Taliban would negotiate if they did not have to give up their demand for withdrawal of foreign troops, Karzai said there was an "urgent need" for negotiations with the Taliban.
In the face of what he knew was U.S. hostility to the idea, Karzai announced on Dec. 3, "Personally, I would definitely talk to Mullah Omar. Whatever it takes to bring peace to Afghanistan I, as Afghan president, will do it."
But he added, "I am also aware that it cannot be done by me alone without the backing of the international community." That is the phrase Karzai uses to refer to the United States and its NATO allies.
A few days later, Karzai appeared to give way to U.S. pressure against unconditional talks. He said he wanted to negotiate with Mullah Omar, "provided he renounces violence, provided all connections to al Qaeda and to terrorist networks are cut off and denounced and renounced."
But Karzai announced at the London Conference that he would invite the leadership of the Taliban to a Loya Jirga without specifying that they would have to meet specific conditions in advance of the meeting.
The Obama administration again reacted with scarcely-disguised disapproval. The State Department spokesman repeated the U.S. line that "anyone who wants to reconcile and play a more constructive role in Afghanistan's future must accept the constitution, renounce violence and publicly break with extremist groups such as al Qaeda."
Clinton pointedly avoided endorsing the invitation and did not use the word "reconciliation", which is the term in U.S. counterinsurgency doctrine reserved for negotiations with insurgent leaders. Those conditions for participation in negotiations would represent demands for concessions by the Taliban on all key issues before negotiations even begin.
Karzai showed no signs of turning back from his intention to meet with the Taliban without conditions. Two days after the London Conference, Karzai announced that he would convene the peace conference in less than six weeks.
And in an implicit response to U.S. demands for conditions on participation in negotiations, Karzai called on the Taliban not to pose the condition that U.S. troops must be removed before negotiations could begin.
In fact, a statement by Mullah Omar on Nov. 25 did not say foreign troops had to be withdrawn before peace talks could begin, but only that the Taliban would not participate in "negotiations which prolongs and legitimizes the invader's military presence..."
Significantly, the Taliban spokesman did not dismiss Karzai's invitation out of hand, as might have been expected, but announced that the Taliban would make a decision "soon" on attending the conference.
The growing divergence of U.S. and Karzai's policy toward the Taliban appears to be embedded in a wider clash over U.S. war policy.
Karzai has not been as enthusiastic as the Obama administration about the prospects for weakening the Taliban by offering economic incentives for individual commanders and troops to abandon the insurgency, which he has viewed as competing with his own emphasis on reaching a peace agreement with the Taliban leadership.
In an interview with al-Jazeera in early January, Karzai said he would not request more money to reintegrate individual Taliban fighters into the government side.
Instead, Karzai said he would seek to constrain U.S. military forces in the country. "We're going to ask the international community to end nighttime raids on Afghan homes," he said, "to stop arresting Afghans, to reduce and eliminate civilian casualties. We're going to ask them not to have Afghan prisoners."
Karzai's public demands for an end to U.S. night raids on homes and continued arrests and detentions aligns his position with that of Taliban officials who have said those would be among the demands they would raise in peace talks.
Karzai's commitment to a peace accord with the Taliban has been influenced by his own deep suspicions of U.S. motives in Afghanistan, according to leading Afghan political analyst Haroun Mir, a former aide to the Northern Alliance commander Ahmed Shah Massoud, who was killed by al Qaeda in September 2001.
In an interview with IPS, Mir said he believes Karzai's opposition to U.S. strategy was intensified by the Obama administration's openly declared hostility toward him in early 2009, and that Karzai has now embraced a conspiracy theory popular in Afghanistan, that the United States has ulterior motives in its military intervention in the country.
Mir said he attended a meeting with Karzai and about 30 Afghan political analysts several weeks ago in which the president presented his conspiracy theory about the U.S. presence to his guests.
"He thinks the United States is here not to fight the Taliban but for something else," Mir said, and "wants to convince everybody of this."
In November 2008, Karzai outraged the George W. Bush administration by offering a guarantee of the safety of Mullah Omar if he agreed to attend peace negotiations in Kabul. The State Department spokesman ridiculed the idea, saying, "One can't imagine" that there would be "any safe passage with respect to U.S. forces."
Karzai then defiantly posed the choice for "the international community" in a news conference as being "remove me or leave if they disagree."
Karzai has also proposed taking the names of Taliban leaders off the United Nations "black list" in order to allow Taliban officials to travel abroad for the purpose of negotiations.
Waheed Omer, a spokesman for Karzai, said in January that Karzai would "probably" ask the United Nations to take Mullah Omar's name off the "black list" of Taliban and former Taliban leaders.
At the London Conference, Karzai requested only that five ex-Taliban figures be taken off the list, but he indicated that he would ask for more deletions in the future.
The U.S. efforts to discourage Karzai from entering into talks with the Taliban should not be taken as evidence of opposition to such negotiations in the future, according to an official of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Kabul. The Obama administration appears to want to postpone peace talks until mid-2011 - after it has sought to weaken the Taliban by adding 30,000 more troops.
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30 Comments so far
Show AllKarzai showed no signs of turning back from his intention to meet with the Taliban without conditions.
Hire a food taster. Wear multiple bullet proof vests, especially over your head. Uncle Sam will kill you as quickly as he would break wind. Remember the fate of the Diems in Vietnam.
And all this time I thought that Afghanistan was now a sovereign country! Why should the US have a say in who the Afghan government decides to talk to in regards to the conditions of their country? I guess Karzai will go the way of Manuel Noriega and Sadaam Hussein if he keeps on pissing off his American benefactors!
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Afghanistan hasn't been a sovereign country in the sense of having a government with the mandate of the people in decades. It used to have a nominal king who was elderly but still alive in 2001. The U.S. helped the mujahideen kick the Soviet military out (along with their puppet government) in the 1980s but then abandoned the Afghan people to the Taliban and warlords. It's been a failed State for so long that war is all two generations of them know. The fact that in 2001 Afghanistan was still a failed State with no official government is why our invasion and occupation of it is illegal--especially the conduct of our occupation. We had a right to go in there and hunt down Al Qaeda and Taliban supporters of Al Qaeda (assuming Bin Laden wasn't a CIA asset all along), but we had no right to seize the entire country and occupy it. International law (which we were the prime movers to create and now scoff at) enumerates very specific conditions for humanitarian occupations and responsibilities on occupying countries with regard to their treatment of the civilian populations. Our occupations are long on military and short on humanity. America has failed this test miserably in both Iraq and Afghanistan and is completely outside the law in its aggressive actions in Pakistan for which no UN or U.S. resolutions or authorizations have been voted.
I have read recently that Karzai will soon announce that there is 1T$ in minerals, oil and gas in Afghanistan. I wonder if that might be an ulterior motive for the U.S.?
Yah think?
It looks like Karzai knows what is best for Afghanistan... Peace.
Oh, yes, US "war strategy" has worked so well for us! Basically, this strategy comes down to this: make impossible demands on the other party, and make sure those demands are pre-conditions for talks. Then, when the other party refuses, as they certainly would and should, declare that they are not interested in peace, pack up your bags and go home, and call in the military. This is the "war strategy" we are using in Iran, and it's the same BS the Israelis have been using with the Palestinians for decades: give up your violence (even though we won't give up ours) and recognize Israel (even though we won't recognize you). Do all this even before we sit down to negotiate, and maybe we'll come to the table. How long will this farce continue?
The only way the U.S. wants peace if it is on their terms, which lets them rape and pillage Afghanistan for their own ends. The war business of the U.S.A. goes bankrupt without the business of war.
I'm no fan of Karzai or the Taliban, but the reason we're in Afghanistan, allegedly, is to stop terrorism against us in our own homeland. We need to get the Taliban and Karzai to work together, or else the stronger of the two to work, toward defusing al Qaeda's cottage industry based in Afghanistan (if there is any, what with only 100 al Qaeda being there) seeking to launch attacks against us, here. The most effective way to do this is to work alongside the Taliban and Karzai, or whoever has control over areas where al Qaeda members reside, to arrest, try, and imprison al Qaeda members in Afghanistan. The unspoken but crucial fact is that the Taliban are different from al Qaeda; in fact, they're natural antagonists when it comes to attacking the U.S. on U.S. soil. Let's provide aid to the Taliban if that will help motivate them to arrest al Qaeda members, or at least put a stop to their schemes aimed at us in that country.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Which Taliban are you referring to? You talk about them as if they were all one politically or economically heterogeneous group and they are not. Their's is a tribal form of society with a culture of vendetta. Some of them are related to the various competing warlords with ties to the now booming opium market. Islam overlayered that with the cult of martyrdom (which some Taliban groups take more seriously than others). Some of them are inter-wed with actual family members of the original core Al Qaeda. That means there will always be an unknown number of dedicated hold-outs who cannot be bought and who will always be pressuring the other Taliban to lie to, betray & ambush Western invaders & contractors. The geography of that entire region makes it impossible to treat Al Qaeda like some cockroach extermination problem: Too many mountain redoubts for them to temporarily scurry off to. You kill one Al Qaeda or militant Taliban leader and 1000 more line up to earn their chance as martyrs to enter paradise. But Al Qaeda is no longer one movement in one geographic region in any case. Horrifically stupid and wantonly cruel U.S. foreign policy has metastasized it into a global disease with hundreds of affliates and copy cats.
The more the U.S. and its nominal allies ignore the root causes of this terrorism in the Israeli and U.S. occupations the longer this nightmare will go on. The dumbass masses back home in Amurka will apparently have to be rendered into the moral and intellectual equivalent of turkey jerky before they wake up out of their violent regress=progress torpor.
The U.S. military-industrial complex opposes reconciliation between Taiwan and China and between North and South Korea. They've done everything they can to prevent Russian and Ukraine from getting along. They installed Saakashvilli in power in Georgia (through one of their CIA and NED-inspired "colored revolutions") and then encouraged him to attack Russian peacekeepers. They tried to establish destabilizing missile bases in Poland and the Czech Republic even though most people there (except those who would profit from them) don't want them. There are too many people making money off our worldwide empire to allow peace to break out anywhere.
"What if they gave a war and nobody came."
incidentally -- the largest of the American-sponsored "ORANGE REVOLUTION" projects : UKRAINE (which has a superb agricultural wealth and land fertility) is, for the present , another, like America's "iceland, estonia, latvia, ireland" "free market, privatization" projects - a BASKET CASE.
and what have the UKRAINIANS done recently in their elections? they elected the very person that the US "orange revolution" toppled - who is close to the Kremlin...people in ukraine saying:
"the orange revolution brought us nothing ..."
and have actually voted into law - a "TWO NATIONAL LANGUAGES" -- Ukrainian AND russian.
Oh oh, bad dog!
It's such a One-Way Fukin' deal with the US. Renounce violence Period. Never any talk about maybe dealing withe the absolutely pure shit that the US is doling out to all these poor countries for decades if not centuries.
It's pretty clear that the US' COIN strategy mimics how the elites coopted the indigenous peoples on this continent (hey it worked once, why not again!):
* pay off whoever you possibly can (we're rich!)
* overwhelm the native culture with 'superior' white technocratic culture (we're cool!)
* control all normative documents eg treaties & constitutions (we're smart!)
* impose impossible pre-conditions before any peace talks (we're tough!)
* send in vigilante sharpshooters eg drones too (we're mean!)
* install corruptable key decision-makers & negotiators (we're conniving!)
* constantly proclaim the evil character of the 'holdouts' (we're champions!)
Oh, didn't I mention the armies they sent to occupy and rape and burn crops & villages and send the children to white schools? Or the solemn treaties they broke and lies told?
We are disgusted by the genocide initiated by Columbus & the ensuing pantheon of colonizing agents... now we're seeing it at work again, right in front of our face, with the unthinking blessings of ignorant American taxpayers who have trouble seeing past the wonder of Avatar.
As a descendent of natives who will never meet distant cousins, it's enough to make me vomit.
I don't say this often, but this is a cool post. Hypergrove should make a PowerPoint presentation of this with illustrations and it should be shown to every member of the CIA before they are collectively shipped to the Black Jail inside Bagram as 7 year inmates who must undergo the same torture as the Afghan and other rendered inmates--only the CIA inmates will only be allowed to wash their faces in Iraqi oil and dry them with desiccated opium bulbs.
I wonder about the mindset of mrs. clinton? In Afghanistan, She advise Karzai to put tough demands before starting a negotiation. on the other hand mrs clinton advise the Palestinian leaders to start negotiation immediately without any demands, like asking Israel to stop confiscating more Palestinian land .
I have posted on a similar topic but I'll say it again. We seem to have learned the Israeli technique of demanding impossible pre-conditions before any meaningful negotiations can occur. If they finally agree, we then set up more pre-conditions and when they refuse to come to the meeting, we then blame them for not coming. This is the Dennis Ross technique that has been applied against Iran by us and against the Palestinians by the Israelis. The question should be, is Karzai sincere? He seems to be suggesting that we should stay for another ten years and I hope to God that won't happen.
Will Obama, like Bush, try to kill Taliban representatives who are traveling to a peace conference?
Murders, rapes, torture ... and now violent threats against those who dare sponsor or attend a peace conference. There is no honor in U.S. military service, from the President to the lowliest private.
Homosexuals in the military? I'm against heterosexuals in the military. It's not national defense, it's national offense. Hell, they can't even defend New York well enough to put the 9/11 mastermind on trial there. What a disgrace. Just say no to U.S. military service. And stop calling them "heroes" on TV.
Oh Oh..the USA's pet Pashtun is putting the brakes on the Pentagon Gravy train?
How long until he is replaced?
What do you figure? A good old fashioned US style "democratic" assasination, coup, or a fatal shaving accident?
As the late, great Hunter said:
“We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the world-a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer Whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum and that is how history will remember us.” (Hunter S. Thompson)
Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism,
Isn't it the most?
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
(C'mon)
Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
Minister, Sinister, Banisters and Canisters,
Bishops, Fishops, Rabbis, and Pop Eyes, Bye bye, Bye byes
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
(Let me tell you now)
Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
Revolution, Evolution, Masturbation, Flagellation, Regulation,
Integrations, mediations, United Nations, congratulations
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
Ev'rybody's talkin' 'bout
John and Yoko, Timmy Leary, Rosemary,
Tommy Smothers, Bobby Dylan, Tommy Cooper,
Derek Taylor, Norman Mailer, Alan Ginsberg, Hare Krishna
Hare Hare Krishna
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
(lather, rinse, repeat)
John Lennon - Give Peace a Chance
The sad thing is that it appears this is all beyond our leader.
"We have met the enemy and he is us" to quote Pogo. It was all right to buy off the Sunni in Iraq, but not in Afghanistan. Maybe it is the amount of money we are offering compared to what they feel is their due.
Maybe money bombs would work. Just fly over the country and drop little packets of money the look like land mines.
Most of the people must live in the valleys, so that with the proper climatic conditions, we could achieve peace by starting fires of opium and hash so that a heavy cloud of smoke would cover the landscape causing everyone to mellow out. So we could "smoke them out".
Karsai wont be long for this world. Who the hell does he think he is-a legitimate leader of his country? We need another puppet in there pronto, we'll show him.
Ok folks, gather round, gotta make this fast, snowstorm is blocking my solar power.
Pay attention, some of you have, I will not mention names, Metal, have inadvertently swallowed some imperial propaganda concerning Afghanistan and are innocently regurgitating the propaganda.
1) After about three wars, in which imperial British India was attempting to block Czarist Russia expansion,the British signed the Durand Line Treaty at Khost, ( where the number two CIA in Afghanistan was recently eliminated), partitioning Afghanland almost in half.
2) 1949 Afghan parliment, yes parliment, repudiates Durand Line Treaty because it was signed under duress of repeated British invasions and because British India no longer existed.
3)Until the mid Seventy's we have a democratic parlimentary Monarchy until a series of relatively mild coups results in an indigenous socialist government implementing agrarian reform and WOMENS RIGHTS.
4) Now pay attention this where things go bad, after eighty years of Peace and unity some calling the early 70's the Afghan golden years. OK we have a socialist government implementing positive reform. The landlords and fundelmentalists rebell, the socialist government is more powerful and is control UNTIL the USA intervenes, prior to the Soviet invasion and arms the reactionary rebels, this is a strategy meant to draw Russian into the conflict, it does and with ISI, CIA, Saudi and Mujahadeens the Soviets retreat.
5) Then ensues a Civil War between all the victorious factions.
6) Finally, praise Allah, the Taliban ended the Civil War and imposed Sharia law and order on Afghanistan.Not a "failed state"
7) The Taliban receive USA and UN aid and in exchange eliminate 90% of poppy cultivation,not a "failed state"
8) Bush the Chimp invites the Taliban to Texas to met with him,UnoCals representatives ( including facilitator Karzai) and other oil Masters. Not a "failed state". Sometime during these negotiations UnoCal supposedly told the Taliban if they signed for the TAPI pipeline they " Would have a carpet of gold, if not a carpet of Bombs".
The Taliban decided to sign with Argentina, they got the carpet of Bombs.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
So I didn't go back as far into the complex history of Afghanistan as you did, so what?
The point I was trying to make didn't necessitate that I do so.
Medieval Sharia law did not exist across the very ancient region of what is modern day Afghanistan until the consolidation of the Taliban in the 1990s, and Sharia law is hardly law and order as any Western society would conceive of it, relies on religious courts and completely subjugates women in the most barbaric fashion. If you think you would be happy living under Sharia and, doing so, that you would be satisfied that such a system fairly produces "law and order" then you must be (A) a very sexist man, (B) a Muslim extremist, or (C) a loon.
Also, just because you periodically insert the phrase "Not a 'failed state'" in your bullet points doesn't make it so. You need to support that contention much better.
Thanks for replying Metal.
I do wish you were more open to learning.
If eradicating 90% poppy cultivation, subdueing warlords in the civil war, being recognized by Saudi Arabia, receiving aid from the UN and USA,imposing a strict set of laws throughout the nation, and finally being stable, viable and in control enough for both the USA and Arginetina to be willing to invest 100's of millions in a capitalist venture deny that Afghanistan was a failed state in 2001, then probably nothing will make you understand and relinquish repeating imperial propaganda.
You may not like the Law and Order but law and order is just that regardless of doctrines.
And as many Afghan women say they prefered the Taleban's protection to the murder and rape they suffer in war.
Not to defend sexism but not to be a imperial flunky who ignores the domestic violence of rape and murder in his own nation in order to self righteously mouth demonization of another cultures attempt at harmony, ( as much as one may believe it needs correction). One who accepts capital punishment may see virtue in that rapists are summarily executed under the Taleban.
Not only the US but all other Western powers should get out of Afghanistan - it isn't their country, it isn't their property. Let the Afghans decide how they want to live. Iraq has certainly shown what Western aggression/intervention is all about.
Wonder how much $$$$$$$$$$$ Karzai wants...and who else???
"Oil and Natural Gas Resources Assessment. A nationwide oil and gas resources assessment was initiated by USGS in Spring 2003 with funding from the U.S. Trade and Development Agency (TDA). This 24-month activity should be completed in early 2005, and will dovetail with two projects that are being funded by the World Bank. These World Bank projects are for engineering assessments of the oil and gas reserves in existing fields and for an assessment of the fertilizer, sulfur, and power plants associated with natural gas production in the northern oil and gas basins of Afghanistan. The completion of these projects should be near the end of 2004. The USGS project calls for a Quantitative assessment of the northern basins and a Qualitative assessment of the southern basins (Katawaz and Helmand)."
Helmland is where Marja is, check your USGS site and read more.
"Petroleum Law. The writing and discussion of a modern Afghanistan Petroleum law have been ongoing for more than two years. This law, when enacted, will serve to level the playing field for all interested foreign investors in the oil and gas sector and will provide for transparency in the management of this critical energy sector of the country. Basically, it will lay out the Afghanistan Government's leasing process for foreign investors. The World Bank is funding this activity; government approval of the new law is expected by the end of calendar year 2004. USGS serves a consulting role in this activity." And as with all government projects, it takes much longer than previously outlined, so we are still there doing what we intend to do, use their resources for our corporate/aka WB benefits.
Emeralds!!! Wow.
If you have any interest in finding out more...
C. J. Wandrey
Project Chief, Oil and Gas Resource Assessment of Afghanistan
MS 939, DFC
Denver, CO 80225
Voice: (303) 236-5341
Email: cwandrey@usgs.gov
or
http://afghanistan.cr.usgs.gov/oil.php
and so much more.....