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TechnoratiUpside Down Flag Has Vet in Fight for 1st Amendment Rights
Dispute Over Flag Protest Erupts in Wisc. Village
WAUSAU, Wis. - An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it - an Iraq war veteran - claims the officers trespassed and stole his property.
![[This photo provided by Susan Willems taken July 5, 2009 shows an American flag being flown upside down, a day after it was removed by local police, in Crivitz, Wis. The flag being flown upside down as a protest in a small northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade. The businessman flying the flag claims police trespassed and stole his property. (AP Photo/Susan Willems)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/upsidedownflag_wisconsin.jpg "upsidedownflag_wisconsin.jpg")
A day after the parade, police returned the flag and the man's protest - over a liquor license - continued.
The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said.
"It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said.
In mid-June, Congine, 46, began flying the flag upside down - an accepted way to signal distress - outside the restaurant he wants to open in Crivitz, a village of about 1,000 people some 65 miles north of Green Bay.
He said his distress is likely bankruptcy because the village board refused to grant him a liquor license after he spent nearly $200,000 to buy and remodel a downtown building for an Italian supper club.
Congine's upside-down-flag represents distress to him; to others in town, it represents disrespect of the flag.
Hours before a Fourth of July parade, four police officers went to Congine's property and removed the flag under the advice of Marinette County District Attorney Allen Brey.
Neighbor Steven Klein watched in disbelief.
"I said, 'What are you doing?' Klein said. "They said, 'It is none of your business.'"
The next day, police returned the flag.
Brey declined comment Friday.
Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.
"It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said.
The parade went on without any problems, Kanikula said.
Village President John Deschane, 60, an Army veteran who served in Vietnam, said many people in town believe it's disrespectful to fly the flag upside down.
"If he wants to protest, let him protest but find a different way to do it," Deschane said.
Congine, a Marine veteran who served in Iraq in 2004, said he intends to keep flying the flag upside down.
"It is pretty bad when I go and fight a tyrannical government somewhere else," Congine said, "and then I come home to find it right here at my front door."
144 Comments so far
Show AllSomeone has yet to explain to me how arresting someone threatening or doing bodily harm to someone because you or your ideology feel disrespected/ dishonored/ insulted by what they've done is so different from the Taliban, al-Qaeda, or the Muslim crazies that go apesh*t every when they feel insulted (I'm thinking the nutjobs that rioted in response to a set of cartoons or the nutjobs that are trying to get every country in the world to pass laws against insulting religions - take your pick)? Explain to me how those people that town in Wisconsin who took that former soldier's flag away or some people on this thread are any different from the so called religious and moral police in the Middle East countries. Please don't give me junk about the fact that the police don't beat him for exercising his 1st Amendment rights because a few people on this thread (e.g. Mullah Osama bin Henry8) have threatened him with that.
I think that the guy in question flying his flag upside down for want of a liquor license is a nut case. I don't think its the right statement to make but I feel like the police has NO grounds to remove his flag and I do believe he could sue and win. Perhaps thats one way to recoup his $200,000 loss or use it as leverage to obtain his wanted license. For them to remove it from his property takes me back to the policeman that would not allow protesters of Obama on the school grounds that graced the news awhile back, stating "This isn't America anymore."
I didn't spend 3 years in Uncle Sugar's Marching Academy (1964-67) to have tough-guy wannabe's (police) tell me how to fly my flag.
"If he wants to protest, let him protest but find a different way to do it," unbelievable! this is a peaceful protest carried out quietly on this mans own property! was this or was this not a country founded on progressive protest and alternative views and individual opinions!? it seems that is becoming a myth more and more these days. he is just standing steady for what he believes. and he is doing so on his land with no guns, no violence, no blind rage, just a bold symbol that is only making an ever innevitable point. this is just another example of how far we've let this government clutch it's chokehold around our rights all the way down to even our basic human rights. yet I find it funny as to how these plastic politicians with their shape-shifting smiles think they can bludgeon the very people who actually work to keep this country afloat. im talking about YOU. WE are the majority and they, the rich and greedy, the minority. they walk only because we hold the ground steady underneath them.
What about turning the flag around on X-axis? That way the little blue space would face away form the pole instead to clinging onto it. Which could then be interpreted as 'Out In The Blue'.
May All Beings Be Blessed.
No Restrictions Or Limitations Shall Apply.
I knew as soon as I started reading this article that it would be a spring-board for comment debtors. Anyway, I too am a war veteran and am proud of Mr. Congine Jr for fighting for what he believes is an unfair decision. I hope he continues to fight against their decision and maybe someday I'll travel to Wisconsin and go to the Italian club!
http://pennyforyourdebt.blogspot.com/
Only those who have good lawyers have "rights".
Wow, thats pretty messed up dude. Seems the guy should be able to protest on his own property!
RT
www.privacy.cz.tc
only if it's designated a free speech zone and he applies for and is granted a permit.
After reading all these comments, I have noticed a consistent pattern, no one has called the flag by its real name the "flag of the united states of America."
U see the U S A is a country and America is a continent.
But still and all everyone should have two of the worlds most hated emblem.
They could $hit on one and cover it up with the other one.
which do you recommend they then use as a blindfold?
Why isn't anyone arguing about why it is "illegal" to cause a "disruption." What the hell does that mean?
That's your problem right there. Toe the line boys... no "disruptions"... Yes boss...
I must say, those policemen are stupid. If the man flies the flag upside down, then he's not going to solve this problem, but that is his choice.
I believe this man is an American Hero to have the GUTS to actually fly a real flag in that manner. During the the Bush Cheney period I would send my mail with the flags upside down. I would not own one let alone have a place to fly one.
Phil Strickland
Those who defend the fabric but sully the intent of the flag, are myopic.
Those who defend the colors yet run from the hard truth of what this country has become, are cowards.
Those who defend the actions of anyone who enforces the way the flag is flown while trampling on the rights that the Constitution was written to protect, are traitors.
I don't care who served in which branch of the military, the flag flies for us all, including for those who choose to fly it upside down as a symbol of distress.
If it is illegal to cause a disruption, as this Kanikula unit states, then arrest those who disturbed the peace by their reaction to the flag's being flown upside down, not the individual who exercised his inalienable right to fly the flag as he chose to. Disrespect is in the eye of the beholder. This sounds like the Salem witch trials all over again, except that now this is taking place in an ignorant little town in Wisconsin whose residents neither know nor care about the law or the Constitution. "On, Wisconsin", indeed - why not go "on" and educate yourselves instead of acting like a lynch mob?
The country is in trouble, the flag should have been flying upside down the day Bush/Cheney decided to replace the Constitution with Patriot Acts.
Warrant less surveillance gang stalking style by republican right wing christian extremists is the new stazi law enforcement tool of fear mongering.
Billions of dollars being spent by law enforcement agencies and a spying industry using community watch groups involving Infragard,Citizen Corp, the IAFF and EMS first responders. They can not tell us about all the bad guys they are catching without starting a nation wide panic.
What crock of bull dooky, they can be doing nothing all day accept screwing with innocent Americans lives and we cant ask them to be accountable because of national security.
Quote from the declaration of Independence.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance."
And the kicker is the complicit supreme court and our elected a-holes who are not protecting the constitution and us from gang stalking hacks who have been put in charge to protect us.
Don't come knocking on my door asking me questions about my neighbors without a proper warrant , or wanting me to sign a loyalty oath to a government who will not protect the constitution- one of two the things will happen,,,,,
You will arrest me for not cooperating, or you better get off my property,,
Either way , you wont get JACK from me.
Because I am an American who will die protecting our constitution from ENEMIES FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.
Born Free Men
Warrant less surveillance gang stalking torture victim of extreme right wing christian domestic terrorists 2.7 years and running.
After looking at the below mentioned Metaphoria website for the images about 'proper' flag use I came to the following conclusion.
First and foremost it becomes clear that You can collect the smallest minds around You with a flag. The smaller the mind, the bigger the flag. Anywhere, everywhere.
Secondly is there anything more disturbing than hypocrisy beyond comprehension? The US has become the unchallenged leader in hypocrisy.
Adolf Hitler would be very pleased, to see how easy it was to get the Americans under his principles. All You see in the US today is a derivate of National Socialism, or its refinement into Fasco-capitalism. Actually, capitalism is just that, fascism with a different name.
To the 'Love it or Leave it' retards:
If You can't stand a real democracy, commit suicide and relief this planet from its painful suffering, caused through the hands of the so called patriots, who are squandrels.
I am so glad that all those NRA-Christo-Fascists are loosing their mind an buy as much weapons as they can afford. Buy them on credit cards. That way it is reassured that enough of those braindead 'I stand by my country no matter what' followers engage in friendly fire and kill themselves off, rather than dragging the whole planet into desaster.
At this point I advise You to move out of the path of the Yellowstone Eruption, which will come for sure. IF there is some sort of justice, IF there is something like a god, he will make that thing blow up to remove the blasphemists from the face of the planet.
Sad to see the same story that happened in Nazi Germany happening all over again. There it too started with the dumbest of the dumbest following the propaganda of the Nazis. Nazis hate intellect. That's the biggest threat to their ideology. You got to be hopelessly stupid to buy into this crap.
One last thing. There was a flag to commemorate the blown up twin towers on 'Metaphoria'. One should buy that one in numbers. It will be of value, when the truth will come out about Cheney's 'Amurikkka' perpetrating a 'second Pearl Habor', to install a totalitarian, fascist SSystem.
Like with Hitler's Nazi Germany, Nazi-Amerikka will use its most stupid 'patriots' as cannon fodder. No better death than the one for a lie, right?
May All Beings Be Blessed.
No Restrictions Or Limitations Shall Apply.
MAKES ME REALIZE I AM NOT ALONE---THANK YOU----------KEVIN
WASABIMON
You are more than welcome. I know how it feels to presume that there are not enough other people 'out there' who know what is happening right now and what to do about it.
The only thing I would like to ask You for is to take it easy with the Caps. It makes it difficult to read, even though the truth about it all demands letters a hundred foot tall.
May All Beings Be Blessed.
No Restrictions Or Limitations Shall Apply.
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?” Bertolt Brecht
After reading through these 90+ posts, I would like to make a few comments. First and foremost, those who think that this guy's use of the upside down flag for economic reasons is in bad taste of beyond the line ignore entirely the very reason this country was founded. It WAS economic, not political. It wasn't about rights or freedoms, regardless of what they tell you in the history books. It was about being able to earn money for yourself, and to not be taxed by a foreign country to do so. What do you think the Boston Tea party was about? or the revolts over the stamp tax? Britain had passed laws that made it illegal for those in the colonies to make things for themselves, and had to buy things from the economic powers in England, as well as to pay taxes on those very goods. The revolution was fought over EXACTLY what this guy is so distressed about.
Secondly, to beat up anyone over their right to say what they want is the same kind of "logic" as shooting abortion doctors because they are "murderers". To demand that everyone live up to YOUR idea of "manners" is NOT what people have fought and died for over the last 225+ years.
Thirdly, what rights of YOURS is this guy walking on? Your right to NOT be offended? You have NO such right. Look for it all you want, but you have NO such right. It doesn't exist, and this guy is NOT walking on your rights at all. You, rather, are walking on HIS.
Fourth, Francis Scott Key wrote NO music. He was not a composer of anything but a poem, and if it weren't for that, no one would have a clue of who he was or what he did. He certainly didn't write the national anthem. Learn your history. It was during the war of 1812 that he wrote the poem.
Fifth, Henry8 is without a doubt a troll. He says many completely indefensible things and tries to stir up arguments based on nothing but Faux Noise "thinking", which is to say, complete nonsense.
Sixth, it seems that Henry's complaint is that this guy had the gall to actually exercise his right to free speech in public. Expression seems fine with him as long as no one can see of hear you doing it. Then what is the point of even allowing such freedom? It makes NO sense to express yourself in a closet.
Seventh, we are in a cultural war, and have been for decades. To insist that everyone else live up to someone else's sense of "manners" is an example of that war. And NO war was ever won by being genteel and polite behavior. This one won't be, either. Manners is no excuse for suppression of dissent. Civil rights weren't won for minorities by being polite. The Viet Nam war wasn't stopped by being polite. This country wasn't founded by being polite. The war between the states wasn't settled by being polite. We ARE in a war, and it's a class war if there ever was one. It's time that we recognize that and act accordingly. Health care won't be won by being polite, nor will free and fair elections. Our jobs won't come back, nor will our factories by our being polite. If that offends Henry's sense of "manners", then so be it. I don't really care. We are fighting for something far more important than manners.
And that is my 2 cents on this one. This guy has every right and reason to do what he has done, and the cops and the DA should have known better. The damage has been done to this guy by their actions. Giving back his flag after the parade is proof that they KNEW what they were doing, and that they knew it was illegal. Now they expect it to just go away? I hope he sues them and costs them. A DA is supposed to know the law, and for this one to pull a stunt like this is just bad form and illegal in it's own right, whereas what this man was doing is NOT illegal. Breaking the law over someone's expression is worse than his expression in the first place. If THIS is what passes for law enforcement now days, then things are VERY wrong. And they are.
The flag is not sacred and it is not the country. It is a piece of cloth or plastic usually purchased from China because it is not profitable to make in the US anymore. How patriotic is that? If you know people who claim they fought for the flag, and not American values, they are either liars, fools, or worse.
If you think the flag is sacred, then when is its 'sacredness' imparted? When it is cut into rectangles? Dyed red, white, and blue? Stapled to a stick? How about when it is packed in a shipping box? Or is it sacred from the moment it is conceived by the guy who sets up the product run?
The flag is a symbol, not of patriotism, but of a totalitarian mindset. You can always pick out the totalitarians, they're the ones with the flag lapel pins. Don't think so? Consider the political views and activities of those who wear them.
People do not die for the 'flag'. That is a fantasy promoted by our home-grown totalitarians. People fight and die for the values of the country they believe in. Nobody in their right mind dies for a piece of cloth. Further, to suggest that the flag is the country and is required to be worshipped contradicts the values of a democratic state and is dangerously insane. This says nothing about the idea that the country should be worshipped - another totalitarian concept.
In the 1960's people were hated, not to mention arrested, for burning the flag which, according to flag etiquette is the only way to properly dispose of it. They were most often criticized by people who have no idea how to treat a flag save to worship it - which is just a symptom of mindless totalitarianism.
"You can always pick out the totalitarians, they're the ones with the flag lapel pins."
Well, dunno, I just thought they we a bunch of go-along ass-kissers. When I saw Obama wearing one for the first time, I thought, "Oh, shit!"
All this solemn etiquette and sacredness of the US flag always reminded me of the old, mostly discarded, rules in Catholic Church regarding the handling of consecrated Eucharist wafers. Near my house in the county park, there is even a special place for proper cremation and burial of worn-out US Flags. Bizarre!
Does any other country in the world elevate their flags to such ridiculous levels of superstitious idolatry? Not healthy at all.
"You can always pick out the totalitarians, they're the ones with the flag lapel pins."
so confuse them - wear flag pins of your own, but upside down.
(now why didn't I think of that before?)
anyone wanting to pick up on this idea can contact me - I recently purchased a job lot. made in china, of course.
What a totally brilliant idea - good on you.
thank you, Gail
please tell your friends.
I have always found these pins to be childish.
but upsidedown they make a valid statement.
I agree with you about the childishness of the flag pin pandemic, and I am utterly delighted with the idea of wearing them upside down. (After 9/11, people were forever asking me why I wasn't wearing a flag pin, and I said I was well aware of my nationality already - it drove me bonkers, this flag pin business.)
What a totally brilliant idea - good on you.
I think that the sheriff misinterpreted cause and effect in this incident. As I see it:
1. Mr. Congine flew the flag upside down on his property
(his right of free expression; as far as I am aware, only
burning or destruction or perhaps wearing the flag as a
bikini are considered illegal).
2. Some townspeople were upset when seeing the flag flown
upside down ( their right-- one has the right to one's
own feelings).
3. The sheriff said that the flag-flying caused a disruption:
WRONG: the upset PEOPLE caused a disruption in response to
the flag as flown.
4. If the disruptive activity was actually illegal, the
people who caused it should have been arrested and Mr.
Cogine's flag-- an inanimate object which cannot cause
anything-- left alone.
It's alot simpler to just remove the flag, though--right, Sheriff?
Very cogent argument and mirrors what I posted on Alternet a couple of days ago. The "upset at upside downers" were the disruptors and disturbers of the peace that the sheriff saw fit to mollify by violating Mr. Congine's rights.
Actually, US-flag burning or other, "desecration" is perfectly legal, and US flag bikinis are quite legal. A Sarah Palin impersonator wore one last summer. There is well established precedent in Supreme Court rulings that prohibit "anti-desecration" laws.
Its amazing how Some of the posts just dissapear from this site. Odoco's and my answer to him is gone. Nothing like a bit of censorship to start your morning.
To you clowns that have never had any risk in your lives or held your friends as they died or handed a folded flag to a very young wife, that know so much about war and what it really means, whose classroom experience outweighs any other information, to those that cannot distinguish between a euphamism and reality.....my sympathy.
If it means I'm not an echo when you conviently say...Troll then I'll be glad to be that. I'd hate to comment with the narrow minded, lemming like thinking that has been expressed here.
I have never had a post removed from a conservative site, even in the most heated of food fights, but its common practise on this site. Think about that. Progressive freedom is it?
Some of you lack manners or common civility in your posts, but that is not surprising. If you have nothing of note to say or don't really know something, resorting to name calling or insults is the first inclination of small minds.
Look back at what you wrote and consider it. All I really said was I don't like folks that dishonor our flag and I wouldn't stand for it in my presense. My rights are just as valuable as yours are. But most of you seem to think rights are defined by what you think they should be. Very Progressive of you.
Henr8
Here you go, Henr8. Here's my photo journal of how Corporate "America" (post 911) views the United States Flag:
http://www.metaphoria.us/FlagPatriotism/Flag_Patriotism.html
In particular, note the two Commanders-in-Chief autographing it.
Again, honor and/or dishonor are words that are in the eyes of the beholder. Foisting either one upon someone else is the beginnings of fascism.
The flag patches sported by US soldiers on their right sleeves are reversed.
This is because worn the other way it would appear that the troops are in retreat.
(I kid you not - I could not FABRICATE such silliness.)
At last summer's Olympics I noticed that the flag on Phelps' cap was "in retreat".
Didn't seem to slow him down.
I agree with those who might find it a bit odd to fly a flag upside down for a liquor license.
Better to fly it upside down against Cannabis Prohibition. Or Guantanamo. Or Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or Pakistan. Or Venezuela. Or Hawai'i. Or Mountaintop Removal. Or support and installation of Pinochet. Or Murder of Allende. Or murder of Kennedy. Or the Genocide of the Native American Nation.
There are so many reasons to fly the US flag upside down, it is a miracle You can still see them the other way around.
Then I wholeheartedly agree with yet others who realize the essenz of delusion.
It is okay for the nosepicker ex-moron in chief to call the constitution a 'Goddam Piece Of Paper' and for Darth Cheney to enlighten the House with profanities like "Go And Fuck Yourself'.
Nothing wrong there.
But let me tell You and reassure You that this
and any other flag are indeed nothing else than 'Goddam Pieces of Fabric'.
I grew up in a country where people ended up on a butcher's hook for 'desecrating' the Swastika. All Fascists care a lot about their insignias.
Well, we will see way more from now on. Here in Hawai'i people are already flying two flags upside down. Their own, Hawai'ian Kingdom Banner and the US Cloth. Great idea with the bumperstickers, too.
Upside down Flags for an Upside down Nation.
May All Beings Be Blessed.
No Restrictions Or Limitations Shall Apply.
“Whenever there are great virtues, it's a sure sign something's wrong” - Bertolt Brecht
here is something about "good manners" henry8:
although I am not sure if they have corrected that little anomaly./..
being that the Canadian Dollar - back when the USA was the one that could print money only - has in it the picture of the canadian parliament...ON TOP of the building in the currency is flying -- the STARS AND STRIPES of the USA....
who put that there ? some prankish us Printer in teh US printing press?
do you think that was GOOD MANNERS towards another nation?
do you think it is "good manners" for the USA to point fingers at nations about "evils" while practicing them itself? or invading them? or rendering their economies subjugated?
do you think it is good manners for the USA to build the world's LARGEST "embassy" right in the center of a culture thousands upon thousands of years OLD
to ENSURE that the American "embassy officials" -- over a thousands of them - surrounded by the largest Military power in the world in the MIDDLE OF Ancient Babylon...
could "keep an eye" ON THE PRECIOUS Black GOLD that american corporations thirst for and americans LOVE to burn in their vehicles and homes and heated swimming pools and beautiful tall skyscrapers and grand highways...while the REAL owners of that resource are left out as "second class citizens" IN THEIR OWN HOUSE?
tell me that this is "good manners".
what DIFFERENCe does it make then -- should it be an AMERICAN or an IRAQI that "disrespects" the american flag BECAUSE of the things that the american flag has come to represent:
TYRANNY - EXPLOITATIOn, WARS, CRUELTY, LIES, MANIPULATION, TORTURE, SPYING, RACISM, SLAVERY?
Teddy.
That flag on the Canadian Dollar is NOT The Stars and stripes.
It is the "British Ensign" (modified and called the red ensign) which was Canadas flag at Confederation, through both wars and then to 1965 where the present Canadian Flag was adopted.
Some issues of Banknotes also had the Union Jack displayed.
GwNorth - Thanks for correcting me. in that case - scratch the matter about the canadian dollar in this discussion about "good manners" . and instead - without the canada matter - consider STILL whether the REST of the associations with the USA regarding other nations is "good manners".
How polite of you to accept responsibility for the US flag error. Not to worry; you were 100% right on with everything else. The point is that the US would LIKE to plant their flag up everyone's arse. It's so nit-picking arrogant of the US to note the splinter in someone else's eye while ignoring the log in their own.
Got to admit the guy is consistent.Tony
AMERICA
“My country tis of thee”; what does this mean, is it just for the elites of the country and not for “we the people? For that seems to be the case of the haves and have-nots.
“Sweet land of liberty”; Can we say this with our head held high? Nay! For if there is no law for all and money is justice and for a law that obscenely is called patriot act that harbors and hides what the elites would rather not have ought but themselves see?
“Of thee I sing”; the song has turned to a lament and there has not been for a time a reason or a cause that this sorrow would turn to a gladness that would light the heavens.
“Land where my fathers died”; this could be at any point in our history; yet it would be hard to be straightforward and claim that it has been a truly heroic past, present and maybe into the future.
“Land of the pilgrims pride”; Where is there any pride in the genocide of a host that kept them alive only to be systematically and with intent to eliminate? Pride entered and the fall cometh. Today, tomorrow? We know not the time; the cause happened and the effect will be.
“From every mountain side, let freedom ring”; It would be a difficult task to let anything ring on the side of every mountainside excepting if it were connected in someway to a giant machines spurred on by insatiable greed with no thought to human health or wellbeing as the mountain is reduced to a molehill. The money is removed to a location where the mountain is not the view. The ones left behind at the mountain, do they hear the mountainside ring of freedom? We have left our freedoms at the cesspool of DC with the bankers and politicians. What the lyrics say grabbed my heart and soul when young and read the accepted words in histories, already the dumbing down of the schools was in progress and the future almost predictable. This is my revolt at being so gullible.
Tony 6/13/09
this is basically the police of that small town thinking that they are doing something important. The constitution and the bill of rights are pieces of paper that really don't mean anything anymore, if it ever did. The government and those in power do what they want. If enough people make a fuss then maybe something happens.
Where was the bill of rights during Jim Crow and child labor? Those that are in power from the president to the town council basically do what they want.
And we all just take it because we are fat, comfortable and scared.
I would just like to point out.
During WW11 many MILLIONS of Germans fought for Germany under the banner of the Swastika.
Hans Scholl was a founding member of "The White Rose".
Amongst the crimes he was accussed of was Dishonoring the Reich and its soldiers because he dared to paint Crossed out Swastikas.
The Gestapo also arrested people for not properly flying the Nazi Flag or showing "disrespect" to the nations soldiers by protests such as was done in Wisconsiwin.
Perhaps dumb people are dumber around the fourth of July....and there's no cure for dumb.
To odoco and jozef in particular, my thanks for your civil and thoughtful posts, to others here the same. To the few that were predictable....oh well.
Have A Great Weekend
This story was an idiotic tale. I'm sorry I read through the whole thing.
It matters what you protest. If you make bad business decisions, it's your own personal failing. If the country goes fascist, that's another situation altogether.
And by the way, where do you get $200,000 to spend on renovations on a soldier's pay. Something's odd about this whole story. Only a fool would spend up front before securing a liquor license.
Participating in an illegal attack on another country that did no harm to the United States is OK, but not handing out a liquor license is some sort of betrayal? Give me a break.
I'm no fan of what the police did, which is unlawful. But this case isn't worth the ACLU's time.
-TIA
Last time I checked, the first amendment lets us fly flags upside down, even if it is only to protest not getting a liquor license. It seems like, at least in your case, it's freedom of speech for me, but not for thee.
Since when are you the one who gets to decide when and what we are allowed to protest?
Reread my last paragraph: "illegal action by police."
Sure, you can use your rights to do crass self-serving things, but there's no real virtue in that. Save your emotions for people thrown into makeshift prisons at national political conventions - or not. It just seems like a waste of everyone's time when the guy is only out for himself, not for others.
-TIA
I believe it was Ken Kesey who said:
"Nowhere else in history has there ever been a flag
that stands for the right to burn itself.
This is the fractal of our flag.
It stands for the right to destroy itself."
A lot of people don't understand that idea.
Indeed.
hello. this guys hangs his flag upside down to protest not getting his liquor license!!?? just seems a bit odd, and not much of a 'political statement' unless there's one helluva lot more backstory excluded from this article. now if he'd hung the flag like that in protest of the bank or auto bailouts, gazan genocide occurring using u.s. manufactured weapons, a surge in veteran suicides, the G8 meetings ignoring the voice of the poor, the war/imf supplemental or drones over pakistan, THAT would be a protest of something relevant to that symbol. using it to draw attention to a problem over liquor licensing seems a bit of a stretch... the wrong symbol for the wrong protest... and hardly worth printing, but it is interesting to see the reactions and counter-reactions in a culture gone a tad loco over how a piece of cloth can come to be an artifact of idol-worship.
The upsidedown flag denotes distress to the Republic, such as in these times.
(Whether it can also be used to signal personal distress ouside of this, I don't know.)
Why not wear a flag lapel pin in this manner?
Be the first on your block!
Ahhhh, only in the US could the same people who ignore US cluster bombs get so upset about an upside down flag or flag burning as a form of dissent.
At a Vets for Peace demonstration, one of the vets painted a swastika on the US flag (to show the US slide toward fascism). That nearly caused a traffic jam.
Americans are funny :
they are so sensitive about their "feelings" - and "patriotism" and "THE FLAG" being offended --- loooooove to display the American flag in just about every block --
but are - in at least equal measure CALLOUS towards the USA TRASHING OTHER nations - literally and figuratively .
another example of "american exceptionalism" that does NOT LIMIT ITSELF to just "leadership" BUT ALSO to communities at large.
oh YES -- the 'american flag' is HOLIER than anything on the face of the planet!!!
next thing you know americans will have the TEN COMMANDMENTS
"amended" t0 INCLUDE:
"THOU SHALT NOT DISRESPECT THE AMERICAN FLAG -- the holiest and most divine of Divinities"!
and it takes PRECEDENCE over ALL OTHER commandments!!!
those other commandments? PAH!!!
"thou shalt not STEAL?" meh!
"thou shalt not LIE?" ehhhh
"thou shalt not COVET they neighbor's goods?" heh!
"thou shalt not KILL?" phew!!
"thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself?" naaaah
how QUAINT!!!
it's ALL ABOUT THE AMERICAN FLAG!!!
the SAME ONE GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER, US MARINES, 1933
said about:
"THE TROUBLE WITH US AMERICANS IS: if our dollar can't buy more than 6% of its value at home -- we get uneasy and we want to go abroad so it can buy 100% more..and where the DOLLAR GOES -- the FLAG follows -- where the flag GOES, our armies follow"
it's all about the DIVINE RIGHT to RAPE other countries. PERIOD!
Aw come on Teddy....you know thats not what this is about. Its about good manners and respect. Respecting the rights and feelings of others, not just selfish justification.
I understand your point about good manners and respecting those, Henry8...
but it has also often beeen the case that "good manners" have become society's way of imposing majority tyranny.
for example:
the famous "southern manners" - it is supposedly a characteristic of especially white southerners..to be "genteel". to be "softspoken"...to be "polite"...and to say "yes sir, yes ma-am"......
but it DISGUISED many evil things:
enslavement. discrimination...
behind the ";goood manners of _ yes sir, m'am - " was.is
also "YES MASTER" expected FROM slaves and non-whites..to be POLITE to their "masters".....
where the "good manners AMONG" master race whites were CLEARLY designed to be among "peers" ABOVE "lower castes" with their FORCED "good manners" OUT OF SUBJUGATION.
so you see - there is good manners between EQUALS - and there is good maners as DISGUISE.
in this case - citing "good manners" out of "respect for the feelings of others in respect for the FLAG"
HIDES a TYRANNOUS world view which DOES NOT TOLERATE showing ANY kind of action that is perceived as "disrespectful" towards a SYMBOL - the FLAG - REGARDLESS of MANY EVILS that THAT SYMBOL REPRESENTS along with what "good mannered" folks wish to think of it as:
"ONLY representing goodness"....
is it REALLY good manners - one might ask - to ONLY respect a flag because "most prefer it to be that way" - WHILE - in THAT respect -- there is DISRESPECT for the people and nations that THAT SYMBOL represents TYRANNY OVER them and destruction of their lives and nations?
do you THINK IT IS REALLY good manners for an american to hold that the American FLAG IS BEYOND dispute as to its HONOR
EVEN IF that SAME symbol - as General Smedley Butler, US MARINES - 1933 speeches revelation -
LITERALLY - OPENLY showed DISGUST FOR what it REPRESENTED?
"THE TROUBLE with US americans is - if we can not buy more than 6& over its value with our DOLLAR AT HOME _ we get UNEASY - and want to go ABROAD so it can buy 100 percent MORE...and where the DOLLAR GOES - our FLAG Follows, where the flag FOLLOWS -- our armies go....I have been the HIGH CLASS MUSCLE ENFORCER for our Predator And Racketeering Nation -- and have participated in the RAPES OF DOZENS of countries - in south america and asia ". ?
now - if a person SUCH AS BUTLER could speak so UNSPEAKABLY about what the US FLAG REALLY REPRESENTED :
in short :
"THE DOLLAR and RAPE of DOZENS OF NATIONS..I was its CHIEF ENFORCER for our foreign -policy -- to make the world safe for our BIG BOSS -- our supernationalistic Capitalism and OUr CULTURAL anc ECONOMIC ASSAULT....we are a Nation of WAR RACKETEERS".......
how do you reconcile "good manners" as the justification for AVOIDING TRUTH about what the US FLAG might actually represent BEYOND what "good mannered" - self-described "patriotic americans"
PREFER TO BELIEVE about the FLAG?.
it is like saying :
"shush -- everyone - let us RESPECT the FLAG and NEVER talk about the EVILS behind it".
that's NOT really "patriotism" nor even LOVE of COUNTRY , henry8.
it's FAKE patriotism.
it is the very example of what some famous thinkers have said: in THIS CASE...
PATRIOTISM is the last Refuge of the Scoundrel.
you can list people LIKE george bush, Dick Cheney, etc....along with the ORDINARY americans who say that the US FLAG is SO DIVINE that it can NOT ever BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for the BLOOD and TERROR and SUFFERING DONE IN ITS image!
true patriots are those like the famous black american gay writer -- James Baldwin - who said:
"I LOVE MY COUNTRY SO DEEPLY - so much - that i MUST criticize her".
Patriots are like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr....
who COULD say - leading to HIS death from HIS own people:
"I MUST WITH GREAT SADNESS AND SHAME say that the greatest purveyor of Violence in the world today is my own nation and government"........
WHAT DO YOU THINK that "greatest purveyor of violence"
ALWAYS CARRIED in FRONT OF IT?
the AMERICAN FLAG. henry8.
and THEN look at WHO REALLY has had the GOOD MANNERS to TELL THE TRUTH. when MOST americans WOULDN"T face up to it - because they COULDN"T STAND the truth about themselves and what their flag has come to represent!
Yeah the sort of good manners and respect shown when you kick some Iraqis door down in the middle of the night and shoot the people down.
Or when you press a button to launch a missile via a drone into some Funeral procession in Pakistan.
Now thats Good manners and respect! And you do a disservice if you shame those brave boys by flying a flag upside down.
Its not the same at all. And that particular veteran should hang his head for shaming the rest of those fine soldiers.
Oh dear Henry, After reading all these posts you seem to be the only one upset that the flag of the US was flown upside down. It really is a sad state of affairs when you are not understood! Can you try a little harder to have us understand? What exactly does this flag mean to you? Is it your own pride that is sown into it, and if so how does that make sense? What does it stand for in your eyes? You mention coffins draped in flags and your father. I can understand how difficult it must be to know that there were many on "your side" killed and injured, but I don't see the connection to the flag other than a disconnect to all humanity.
"What exactly does this flag mean to you? Is it your own pride that is sown into it...?"
I reckon it's his seed that's sown into it.
No. He should not. I'm a veteran and though I may disagree with the reasons why he did what he did, I will support his right to do so with my military service. One NEVER gives up a freedom. And one never refuses to practice one's rights in deference to another's sensibilities. Otherwise, in small increments, only that which is sanctioned and approved by the State becomes the norm and we find ourselves marching in lock step, perhaps, even goose step.
In my room I hang the flag of the orginal 13 colonies. That to me is the true flag of the United States. It reminds me of the principles this nation was founded on and just how far our government has gone. If our Founding Fathers were alive they too would be hanging the current American flag upside down.
For me hanging the orginal flag gives me the courage to stand up and fight against all those who for their own selfish reasons have allowed this nation to be destroyed.
I also like the idea of hanging the "Don't tread on me flag". I think either one is good.
well -sad to say -- the "founders" considered the Original 13 colonies as ONLY THE BEGINNING of what George Washington called
"OUR RISING EMPIRE" - "OUR INFANT EMPIRE".
and they made SURE - didn't they - to ERASE the NAtive Indians from the face of the planet as much as possible - leaving only a few to be "civilized" - in order to CONTINUE what was BEGUN in reality -0-
an INTENT to create an EMPIRE -- nothing at all about the "modesty" of MERELY unshackling the tyranny of england.
NO -
it is QUITE CLEAR now - that the present EMPIRE is and always HAS BEEN the VERY NATURE of america since the very beginning.
it was "founded" IN ORDER to BECOME an Empire.
practically EVERY characteristic of its entire history points to it.
it is the story of "achieving FREEDOM" IN ORDER to DENY IT to others. that's the true nature of America. that much is clear.
any other explanation is just covering up something that stinks with creamy bubbles and nice-smelling flowers. ...amounting to the MYTHS of "exceptional goodness" america garlands itself with .
Actually, just like the melody of the national anthem, there is little original in the original US flag - it was just the British East India Company ensign with the circle of stars replacing the Union Jack in the canton.
Are you perhaps confusing My Country Tis of Thee with the Star Spangled Banner? Key wrote an original tune I'd say.
>>The Star-Spangled Banner has its genesis as an English-American hybrid.
The music as we know it today is English in origin. Ralph Tomlinson, president of the Anacreontic Society, a London social club, wrote a poem in 1770 called "To Anacreon in Heaven." A year later John Stafford Smith, an organist and composer set the poem to music.
Forty-three years later Francis Scott Key, a poet-lawyer, witnessed the valiant defense of Fort McHenry by American forces during The Battle of Baltimore. One thousand dedicated Americans stopped the British advance on Baltimore, and on September 13, 1814 when he saw the American flag flying over Fort McHenry "by the dawn's early light," Francis Scott Key changed the words of the original tune from England, replacing them with his own. He named it The Star-Spangled Banner.
In 1931 the Congress of the United States enacted legislation that made the song this country's official national anthem.
Those principles include slavery, and seeing the indigenous as 1/3 human.
Are you unaware that many free blacks fought in our revolution? Are you unaware of the fact that many blacks in the South were slaveowners themselves? Do you not understand what happens when two cultures come together and the dominent more advanced always wins? Are you unaware that your indigenous folks had quite a record of slavery, cruelty and agression.
I would suggest there is a bit more involved.
Henry8 July 11th, 2009 5:18 pm .......... Our indigenous culture was multi-cultural and multi-tribal. We did not destroy ONE culture...we destroyed thousands. Two cultures did not come together. One culture invaded thouands of cultures and destroyed them...committed genocide.
Good point that there were many cultures (not multi-cultural though, if you didn't assimilate into the tribe and taske their culture you were eliminated) in varying states of advancement, not just one. There sure are a lot of the Nations left for us to have destroyed them. My mistake.
Genocide is a bit strong but as many have pointed out it is technically correct so I accept your description. I always thought of it as a concerted and formalized effort to destroy every single person of a particular race.
Are you arguing that cultures that practice human sacrifice and slavery should be preserved?
Henry8 July 11th, 2009 6:34 pm.........In essence, they were sovereign nations and in NO WAY was it our right to interfere in their sovereignty. Just as it was not our right to infringe upon and invade the sovereignty of any peoples we have conquered...including the most recent..Iraq and Afghanistan. We are not Mother Earth's gift to existence...we have become a virus causing it's extinction.
Seems to me I don't recall the native indigenous populations of what today is the United States sailing off and hauling Europeans back demanding they settle here. No one said that the indigenous population here were saints, nor uncruel nor anything else. What I said was that the founding documents of the USA INSTITUTIONALIZED slavery and the branding by law of the indigenous population as being 1/3 human. But heh, they were Christians, so it's OK as they are forgiven.
Why all the dispute over the American Empire's flag? If you are against invasions and occupations of third-world countries by the mighty Empire - and you respect your privacy, the Constitution and Declaration of Independence - why fly this flag at all? Screw the Empire's flag - right-side up or up-side down! I proudly fly the Gadsden Flag: DONT TREAD ON ME. This was the flag of the American Colonies at the time of the American Revolution against England.
Isn't it about time to begin flying this revolutionary flag to show our disgust and true feelings about the corporate/military goals of the American Empire?
Eighteenth century American revolutionaries have devolved into our current breed of citizens: American delusionaries. It actually makes perfect sense. Now that we're the American Empire, we must live in a constant state of denial about what our government really does. Otherwise, we'd either go crazy (if we had a conscience) or we'd feel the need to do something about it. It's much easier (and safer) to pretend that our government is not thoroughly corrupt - even when there's overwhelming, contrary evidence staring us directly in the face.
"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead."
Arundhati Roy in Come September
http://www.nmazca.com/verba/roy.htm
Another website I occassionally visit has a little animated .gif of the Gadsden flag waving at the top of the page. Tiny it is. As the page loads the flag freezes in mid wave, folding the snake. One day I observed that, much like one can turn Washington into a mushroom by folding a dollar bill just so, this folded snake resembled a coil of doggie doo. The "Don't tread on me" was still perfectly legible. "Ah" thought I, "now there is a useful flag with a sensible message."
I think I'll pop over to that site now to see if the flag is still there.
nope - nothing but crockett's dead bear.
I am certainly against the invasion of or the pccupation of any other country. I am more against war of any kind.
Our flag doesn't represent Corporate America nor does it represent any Empire. It represents the people of our country. Not the fools that sent us to war, but the poor schnooks that went yesterday and today.
If it doesn't mean anything to you thats fine, but it does mean something to the vast majority of Americans. So I feel it would be a good policy for you folks that don't respect our flag and the country and people it represents not to spit in their faces. I don't mean that literally of course, nor is it inferred from your post, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
I would also say that respecting our flag and what it represents in no way suggest an approval of the past administration or the present one nor the corruption of both.
You say you are against war, but you are willing to start a little war of your own by kicking the ass of someone who does something which offends you -- not harms you, but just offends you. You resort to physical violence over that, perhaps expecting that there will be no resistance, or that his friend will not join in to defend him, and then your friend join in to defend you -- and before you know you have a riot and waring gangs. But you 'against war of any kind'...
Maybe instead of being 'against war' you could do better by being 'for peace' and the those things which bring peace, such as being respectful enough of those who disagree with you that you do not 'kick their ass' after you have gotten rid of the law enforcement officers who would prevent such vigilantism, violence or even starting gang warfare. Your arguments are hypocritical.
During the error of Dubya, Cheney, & Co., I had an upside down US flag in the front window of my former house's sun room. It was fairly visible, as the street was on a bus line. I was not hassled for it in any way. Of course, this sort of political commentary is a lot more acceptable in Santa Monica, CA. than in small town America. It should also be noted that the SMPD have a lot of better things to do with their time than those of Civitz, Wisconsin.
NateW,
Just because you're right doesn't make you arrogant. I live 60 miles away from Crivitz and I wouldn't be surprised to see the same sort of fuss and behavior here by the "he's dissin the flag" sorts. I could see the bumpkins for law enforcement go either way on this in my town. I would like to think we'd be able to reason with our local officers to leave property rights and 1 st amendment rights intact. But I could also see them caving to the American Legion types over this. Probably would depend on the officer, which of course, is wrong. I think you're right, SMPD would have differing priorities because they are used to dissent and heterogenious attitudes.
Thats a fairly arrogant statement and quite elitist. I'm surprised at you.
It would seem that my post has gotten a rise out of this site's conservative troll du jour.
If the fact that Santa Monica, CA. and its' police department has better things to do than enforce Fox Noise Channel-inspired political correctness, as opposed to the forces of law and order in Crivitz, Wisconsin, whom obviously have way too much time on their hands. If to write on a public forum a simple home truth that my form of protest goes unmolested in a large urban area would engender the same sort of hassle as the subject of the article endures in small town America is arrogant and elitist, then the sky is purple and the world is flat.
Of course, such twaddle, as with your characterizations, is completely ludicrous.
"conservative troll du jour." Thats one way to divert attention. I was a liberal before you were born I suspect.
If you believe liberals need to spit on our flag, need to look down on people that don't live in our oh so modern and informed communities, aren't enlightened don't you know?
Twaddle? Want to bet that Crivitz, Wisconsin pays their bills. Fox? Is that the best you can do? Thats like our inspired leader that spoke about people that held onto God, their bibles and guns, you know those poor schnooks that go to work everyday so you enlightened folks can get by.
If you don't respect your country, no problem....but looking down your nose at people that do is indeed arrogant and small minded..
It seems that you ascribe to the Come, Let Us Reason Together - So Long as You Agree With Me party.
Write about "diverting attention," your reply mentioned nothing regarding my main point: the harassment from the local police the subject of the article received is an too prevalent reality in small town & rural America, while in large urban areas, police have better things to do with their time. Thus unmentioned, it means that you have conceded my main point -- thank you very much. Now on to the rest:
"I was a liberal before you were born I suspect."
Age does not necessarily impart wisdom merely by its' passage. Are you like Winston Churchill and Grandpa Caligula (Reagan), whom considered earlier progressive politics as "youthful errors?"
"If you believe liberals need to spit on our flag, need to look down on people that don't live in our oh so modern and informed communities, aren't enlightened don't you know?"
Conflating hanging a flag upside with spitting on it is GOP / Fox Noise Channel obfuscation at its' most trite, boring, & retrod. It is also completely wrong. Considering the obscenity that was the Bush error and how they bastardized / utilized the US flag ("Mission Accomplished" ring a bell?), indicating that the USA was in distress was an entirely appropriate method of political protest. As for the rest of that rather poorly constructed sentence (that would've merited a thrown eraser from my 11th grade English teacher), I have the luxury of choosing whether or not to respond to incomplete / incoherent thoughts on this forum.
"Twaddle? Want to bet that Crivitz, Wisconsin pays their bills. Fox? Is that the best you can do? Thats like our inspired leader that spoke about people that held onto God, their bibles and guns, you know those poor schnooks that go to work everyday so you enlightened folks can get by."
Quite all the map there, eh? I don't know about your home town, but mine, Santa Monica, pays its bills, so what is your attempt at a point? As for the rest of that twaddle, it is quite apparent you have not read closely what other habituates and I have written here about Obama (hint: he is not a fave here), nor accurately gleaned from their posts their actual stations in life, most of which are quite modest. Thus, for whatever quixotic reason(s), you have chosen to spew out a script not unlike one sees from populist right wing prattle on the web.
"If you don't respect your country, no problem....but looking down your nose at people that do is indeed arrogant and small minded."
I care enough about my country to let everyone that something was seriously wrong when the Bush crime family befouled the White House. I do reject the ultimately self defeating "Love it or leave it" crap and those who spew it, or variations of it. In fact, I love it more than them because I care enough to want to change it for the better. I pity those whom are not up for the challenge of leaving this country in a better place than they found it...and those whom spout "Love it or leave it" are not up for the challenge and use it an insecure cop out.
"It seems that you ascribe to the Come, Let Us Reason Together - So Long as You Agree With Me party."
Your powers of surmising have let you down quite badly (or was it that you have not bothered to read my prior posts?). I know quite well to expect everyone to hew to your position is the height of narcissism. I could not care less whether or not our little tiff causes you to "see the light," you are quite entitled to your delusions.
Nah.
You're a troll. I can tell.
Its the way you try to tailor your position differently for different posters that gives you away. That and the fact that you've driven this comment thread to 80+ by getting involved with almost everyone.
This is the classic "Fill the thread with nonsense or ire" technique of trolling. Who's gonna bother scanning through 80+ comments that are just a back and forth between you and whoever else, right?
I mean, you've pretty much negated any chance that this thread could focus on decent discussion of civil rights or blowback of empire issues, haven't you?
I wouldn't be suprised if you were a few other "characters" beside "Henry8" actually. And BTW what's the "patriotic-ness" or "liberal-osity" of using the name of a British tyrant as your nets handle exactly?
Gotta admit you're pretty good though, even got me to post at ya twice (and I'm an old-hand at this)!
So, here's you pellet.
Have fun,
-matti.
Yeah matti,
I'm fairly positive it's Thomas Moore on steroids. Best for all of us not to respond to him. Does anyone know of a filter program that will work with this version of wordpress? Then we could bias out "Henry The 8 yr old" and read only enlightened content.
Thanks,
TJ
Better yet: fly your flag upside down and at half staff because the freedom died. If you can't do that because of violent red-neck neighbors-from-hell at least you can fly this one:
http://informedvoters.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/onenation.jpg
One darn thing for sure is that my flag is going in MY driveway upside-down and I defy the bastards to come and take it!
turn your lapel pin upside down too.
if you don't have one, get one now.
everyone will then know where your head's at.
imagine the two sides of Main Street.
those with their pins upside down chanting: "no more war - no more war"
those with their pins RIGHT side up: "know more war - know more war"
I've been seeing a few upside down flags lately, some are on bumper stickers of cars. I assume it's a form of protest against the government and the corrupt system we are currently in, a sign of anger over illegal wars, criminal bank bailouts, sanctioning of torture, etc. It's a strong symbol of protest in this country.
This guy had every right to fly the flag upside down and the authorities had no right to illegally confiscate it. But all the media attention on this particular case seems a little suspect since the guy was protesting the fact that he couldn't get a liquor license. If he was protesting against the tyranny of the US Empire, would there still be all this media attention?
"But all the media attention on this particular case seems a little suspect since the guy was protesting the fact that he couldn't get a liquor license."
You cut to the chase there!