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TechnoratiJimmy Carter Charges Obama 'Doesn't Want to Punish Those Who are Guilty' of Crimes
The Democratic Party power structure's least favorite ex-President is speaking out of school again. Jimmy Carter has some strong words about President Obama's decision to fight the release of thousands of photos that reportedly show further US abuse and torture of prisoners and has weighed in on the debate over prosecuting former Bush administration officials for torture. In an interview to be broadcast tonight on CNN, Carter says this about Obama's position on the release of new torture photos:
![[In strikingly strong language, Carter blasts Obama’s position blocking the release of torture photos and on holding Bush-era officials accountable for their “crimes.”]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/carter-2.jpg "carter-2.jpg")
[M]ost of [Obama's] supporters were hoping that he would be much
more open in the revelation of what we've done in the past. But he's
made a decision with which I really can't contend that he doesn't want
to resurrect the past, he doesn't want to punish those who are guilty
of perpetrating of what I consider crimes against our own laws and
against our own constitution. And the revelation of those pictures
might very well inflame further animosity against our country causing
some harm to our soldiers, so I don't agree with him, but I certainly
don't criticize him for making that decision.
Regarding calls for prosecution of former Bush administration officials, Carter says:
I think prosecuting is too strong a word, what I would like to see is a complete examination of what did happen, the identification of any perpetrators of crimes against our own laws or against international law and then after all that's done, decide whether or not there should be any prosecutions. But the revelation of what did happen is what I think I would support.
At the Democratic National Convention in Denver last year, Carter was removed from a speaking position at the last minute in a move some considered to be a political snub.
96 Comments so far
Show AllRight now, he's one of the few -with any on-stage volume- that is calling for what's right.
Whatever his past (oh yeah, 40 years ago?), he's been dedicated to helping many of those who need it most - just to get through the day.
I believe we need to send the message that we will not tolerate war crimes by our own "leaders." And send that both to our youth for the sake of their learning values, and to the world - especially to the Middle-East.
*Forgiveness* need not rule out *accountability* - both necessarily have their place in all things, IMO. But we cannot tell our kids one thing, and then do another for very long without consequences - any longer than we can do that with our world neighbors. Basic stuff, right?
And Obama is not "BushIII" - he *is* the type that will take forever unless he gets a lot of citizen support (push) - that's what got him in office, so maybe he expects something close to a mandate to get him to swim upstream in that trough with/against the best elected officials money will pay for. But we just consign him to the mud at the bottom of it before he's found where better currents are, well, then we'll probably get what we call for.
Thanks for the listen.
Carter's no saint, and this kind of half-hearted noodging at the high crimes of his party won't get him there. But there is some value in someone who is a true "ruling class vetted imperialist" like Carter coming forward.
Thank small goodness for small favors.
Why can't we take a moment to focus on the welfare of those who have been violated by our heroes?
Why are there so many innocent people in our goulags, being abused day in and day out by American misfits who I wouldn't allow to drive my car to the local supermarket?
What, exactly, is the rationale for keeping innocent people locked up? Whatever happened to habeus corpus? Oh, I know: they're Muslims, probably terrorists like most Muslims...we torture and abuse them in the name of freedom.
Sweet!
jimmy carters biggest fault was that he became president when we were too inhuman
and barbarous to understand him. that was our fault and we (not me) voted for ronnie
rayguns and the beginning of the end of the world as we knew it. thanks grace slick
for the proper naming of ron reagan.
Seriously, people, drop the Nazi references. They're entirely inappropriate, uncalled-for, and frankly, are offensive.
as for Jimmy Carter...he's a prefect example of how many who assume the office of president must forsake their principles to get the job done. I hope he never bites his tongue, because truth spoken late is better than never spoken at all.
The problem is that most Americans are too comfortable, uneducatedabout the issues, or have practicalities ( children to support) to actually get out there and DO somethng about the injustice that is happening in the world. I was getting out there for a while. But now, my job has changed and it's harder. BUT -I think I have figured out a way. Before, I was protesting with a group and it became impossible for me to meet at their time. But I think I can get out there and go it on my own, with my own signs, extra ones, incase passers by want to join me.
Now, when I say Americans are too comfortable to DO anything, what do I mean by DO? Well, that's a good question. Because after what has happened with the assasination of Doctor Tiller, it's difficult to try and push people. I mean, ( by the way, I'm pro choice). But the fact that some, the far right is trying to apologize for their rhetoric, is somethng to think about. I say this because there are times when I think that more "action" should take place to accomplish objectives, like stopping mountain top mining, or blocking a nuclear plant being built etc.
Once you begin with violence it goes out in the ether and a some people can do things beyond what was intended.
I don't know... I feel that peaceful resistance should be taken up on massive scale. But most americans are not educated enough about many issues. This is why they don't "do" anything. If the history of an issue is known by an idividual,there is more of a chance the person will become passionate about the injustice and want to take part in changing things. But it takes education.
When I go out there I'll be handing out the articles I get form CD and Democracy Now(like Amy's recent shows on the Nigerian Delta). I then tell people to try the websites and read some books on the issues. the more people know, the less they act like sheep, at least I hope.
One thing that irks me is the use of commercials by oil and coal companies. Many people who don't know any better actually believe that BS. They think, see they are doing something about the problem. I explain to my kids the sham that these commercials are...
Go out and ecducate, that's my plan...When I protested before that's what I did, i handed out the articles. I 've got to get back to work...
That's a pretty ridiculous comment coming from Mexico...except the need to have more you can't take care of..Go Sancho!!The craziest person on the INTERNET!!!
theinitiate June 2nd, 2009 7:54 am.............Excellent and thank you. Every little bit counts, but for real change, it will take massive effort and that will only happen through the MSM. After the NYC CAN vote to re-investigate 9/11, they will not be able to ignore the resistance. Again, thanks for what you do.....
Carter is a mealy-mouth, why doesn't he tell us the whole truth? As disingenuous and absurd this "looking ahead" excuse might be, the real reason is much darker and perverse: Obama's protecting Bush because Obama himself has been committing the same exact crimes since he took office on Jan. 20, 2009.
Additionally, the entire rotten Democratic Party vouched for, aided and abetted each and every one of Bush crimes for 8 years. Any investigation of Bush would implicate the Rats as well. So there, Obamabots, your silly house of cards has crumbled down in mere two sentences.
I always laugh inside when I think of the tragic zombies out in the freezing cold on inaugural day, at least I was watching the entire silly farce on TV in a warm apartment.
"Rats?" That's part of the right-wing Republicans' attack strategy . . . calling Democrats "rats." And this isn't the first time a self-proclaimed leftist in these forums has spouted right-wing rhetoric. Suspicious? Oh yeah!
Rats is too good of a word for Democrats. As Repugnant is for Republicans. And this isn't the first time a Democrat makes a fool of himself on CommonDreams, trying to change the subject by creating a diversion.
That's funny. The article is entitled: "Jimmy Carter Charges Obama 'Doesn't Want to Punish Those Who are Guilty' of Crimes." You come along with comments that divert attention from the former President's condemnation of Obama, and say that those who disagree with you are "Obamabots" and "creating a diversion."
So, in summary, we are Obamabots because we support Jimmy Carter's condemnation of Obama, and we are diverting by pointing out your diversion.
Whew! That's the mother of all spins.
There was absolutely no spin, I simply pointed out that Carter didn't go far enough on his criticism of Obama and isn't telling the whole truth about the real reason that Obama's protecting Bush and his mob of torturers.
Carter and you Dem Party Apologists, Lesser Evilists and Obamabots can't face the fact that Obama himself has been committing the same exact Bush crimes since he took office on Jan. 20, 2009 and plans to get away with them the very exact same way Bush did. And THAT's why he's protecting Bush and will keep protecting Bush and Cheney to the very bitter end as if his life depends on it, wake the f... up. This simple truth drives Democratic voters like you crazy and that's why you have to come up with distractions like my calling you "Rats", etc., as if that had anything to do with the issue at hand.
Grow up and face the truth.
Jimmy Carter was born in the Year of the Rat 1924, and I am sure the youngster was just referring to his astrological sign.
I've thought the same thing. Shills.
Obamabot.
"The entire rotten Democratic Party vouched for, aided and abetted each and every one of Bush crimes for 8 years."
People say this constantly, but it's still not true:
"President Bush's success rating in the Democratic-controlled House has fallen this year to a half-century low, and he prevailed on only 14 percent of the 76 roll call votes on which he took a clear position.
"So far this year, Democrats have backed the majority position of their caucus 91 percent of the time on average on such votes. That marks the highest Democratic unity score in 51 years."
http://public.cq.com/docs/cqt/news110-000002576765.html
There you go. If the Democrats broke a 50-year record in opposing the Bush Administration, it is patently false to say they aided and abetted.
Oh PULEEZE, cut the BS spin already. The "entire rotten Democratic Party" have failed to represent the American People on the issues that count:
- protecting the Constitution (FISA, habeus corpus, posse commitus)
- illegal war
- military spending
- torture
- single-payer health care
- election reform
- corporate bailouts
The cynics are correct: Obama is Bush III, and Democrat apologists are Republicans.
Can we please stop with the misrepresentations, lies, apologies and excuses?
How many Democratic filibusters did we see during the 8 years of the Bush White House? None.
Democrats are now the Team A of Corporate America, Republicans their Team B until it's time again to reverse the order to fool people like you. Two different wings of the same criminal enterprise. Let's wake up folks.
obusha, you bring up a very interesting and potentially earth-shattering CHARGE when you note the truism that these are, "Two different wings of the same criminal enterprise."
Here's the key point that could change everything:
Just last week nearly a thousand major news organizations, including; Th eNew York Times, Wall Street Journal, BBC, CNN, Bloomburg, Business Week, Th eWashington Post, CNN, and all the major TV networks news department (including FOX, for god's sake) reported the same shocking story --- tht the U.S. Federal Appeals Court agreed and up-held a major US Federal District Court ruling from 2006 that the tobacco/cigarette corporations had engaged in a long running "criminal enterprise" as defined under the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act --- Title 18 of the United States Code, 18 U.S.C. § 1961–1968.), which under the tough RICO statute can include the following racketeering charges as a united crime:
Under the law, racketeering activity means:
* Any violation of state statutes against gambling, murder, kidnapping, extortion, arson, robbery, bribery, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in the Controlled Substances Act);
* Any act of bribery, counterfeiting, theft, embezzlement, fraud, dealing in obscene matter, obstruction of justice, slavery, racketeering, gambling, money laundering, commission of murder-for-hire, and several other offenses covered under the Federal criminal code (Title 18);
* Embezzlement of union funds;
* Bankruptcy or securities fraud;
* Drug trafficking;
* Money laundering and related offenses;
* Bringing in, aiding or assisting aliens in illegally entering the country (if the action was for financial gain);
* Acts of terrorism.
The last recourse for the tobacco corporations (which have been convicted of conspiring, defrauding, lying, deceiving, looting, damaging, killing and otherwise destroying the lives of millions of Americans as part of their proven "criminal enterprise") is to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Now it seems to me, obusha, that the U.S. Congress (both Democrats and Republicans) could be successfully charged and convicted under the RICO statute just as convincingly and surely as the tobacco/cigarette corporations have been --- and for exactly the same conspiritorial and "criminal enterprise" crimes that you note, obusha!!!
Have they conspired? Clearly.
Have they defrauded the American public? Clearly.
Have they committed extortion, robbery, and bribery? Clearly.
Have they committed theft, embezzlement, fraud, obstruction of justice, racketeering, and money laundering? Clearly!
And finally, Have they committed Acts of terrorism against Americans as well as people they have waged war on throughout the world? Clearly -- and absofrigginlutely!
I think, obusha, that most Americans would readily agree on, and vote as members of a jury, that the lying, cheating, looting, murdering members of Congress have together and jointly in a "criminal enterprise" (as you say) committed crimes at least as damaging, heinous, dastardly, wicked, infamous, flagrant, atrocious, villainous, nefarious, and certainly far more conniving than the cigarette corporations.
Maybe, obasha, the American people finally has the U.S. courts support to address the terrible destruction and intentional murder of our democratic Republic by this gang of conspiring criminals and treasonous crooks, who, BTW perform most of their "criminal enterprises" at the behest of, and under the inducement of a hidden 'corporate financial Empire' -- and that Congress can then be truly CHARGED with 'murder of democracy for hire'!
Alan MacDonald
Sanford, MAINE
Re. obusha June 2nd, 2009 6:51 am:
Yes, the United States is a phoney democracry: it is a one-party system, with two right wings.
This system has perfected the art of jerking the citizenry around from one wing to the other, giving it the illusion that it is effecting change when it manages to get one wing in positions of power after the other wing has been in charge for a little too long. Instead of phoney democracy, one might also call it 'ping-pong democracry'.
Bring America Back !!!!............Scahill states what we already know on Obama not wanting to "look back" !!
President Jimmy Carter is still pretty foxy in that he knows once the Truth comes out==the investigation and revelations exposed==then public outcry would, of necessity, prosecute the Neocons and their Democratic enablers, as well.
*Nobody ever said speaking Truth to Powers would make you the most popular kid on the block !! Only after Pres Gerald Ford passed away , were documents of his put forth stating that Bush was wrong to go into Iraq !
*The Dems also limited Dennis Kucinich at the convention when he screamed at the top of his voice: WAKE UP AMERICA about four times while the crowd exploded with cheers.
*Thanks to Pres Carter for speaking out, keep on rolling jimmy==You Go and You Rock !!!
We should have voted for Hillary
Carter's not the only one. Here's the General who was in charge in Iraq:
In front of a packed audience tonight at the Times Center in New York City, General Ricardo Sanchez, the former commander of all coalition forces in Iraq, called for a truth commission to investigate the abuses and torture which occurred there.
The General described the failures at all levels of civilian and military command that led to the abuses in Iraq, "and that is why I support the formation of a truth commission."
The General went on to say that, "during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques."
I interviewed General Sanchez after the event and asked him to elaborate on why he felt the US needed such a commission. "For the American people to really know what happened, " he replied, "...this was an institutional failure, a personal failure on the part of many...."
I read Gen. Sanchez request as a deep politics maneuver after the REALLY incriminating pictures and the REALLY damning documentation is being successfully suppressed and not doubt destroyed in many cases, then he comes out and says he, who was a MAJOR player wants an investigation which will be forced to exonerate him through lack of evidence which he himself suppressed and destroyed.
This is the way they play politics in Washington, D. C.
Don't expect anything to come of all this baloney. They have figured out how to get away with out any charges. And the main element will be the Judiciary Committee who is running scared due to the Anthrax hit they made on Leahy in 2001. He is well aware how close they came to killing him and is just marking a place. He will make sure that no one gets pressed and it will return to "just boys being boys".
Now do you now why every day is a day with Dick Cheney on the airwaves? Better tend to your plants, it is time better spent.
Not one post here has mentioned the possibility, that Obama has refused to seek the prosecution of those involved in war crimes, not because he would rather "look forward, than look to the past," but because he fears and knows that supporting prosecution of those war criminals, will inevitably lead to embarrassing disclosures and revelations about his own wrongdoing.
What a guy this Obama is. He (according to many of you) has managed to duplicate in 4 months what it took bushie 8 years to do. Frankly, your credibility is zilch.
What a guy this Obama is. He (according to many of you) has managed to duplicate in 4 months what it took bushie 8 years to do. Frankly, your credibility is zilch.
Toture Camp at Bagram; appointing Gen. Stanley McKrystal head of Af-Pak (McKrystal ran Camp NAMA, another torture camp); preserving many of Bush's state secrets (thereby contradicting Obama's transparency promise); surrounding himself with economic advisors (Rubin and Summers) who are the architects behind this economic calamity. Shall I list some more examples?
Great idea! Can you give us a few examples? One will do.
Carter was part of the team who attacked A&E/History Channel for reporting the reality that LBJ was involved in the coup
on JFK/"people's" government.
He - Bill Moyers -- Lady Bird -- Gerald Ford . . .
Finally the tapes were to be destroyed!
You can't see those programs on A&E anymore! TMWKK -
The Men Who Killed Kennedy -- The Final Chapters . . . !
Go to YouTube if you want to see them now. Fortunately,
they have been saved. And, it would certainly be desirable
if many of us downloaded them or made copies -- these days
everything's being scrubbed!
Obama made a sad decision re he photos -- I hope he is defeated in his effort to keep the American public from
seeing them. The reason they Obama is against it is because
they understand THIS could be the impetus which actually would get the public up off their couches and doing something
about corrupt government. Then, Obama would have to actually do something positive about holding people responsible!!!
Run, Cheney -- run.
"According to all myth, the female - not the male -- gives life"
Sadly, Obama is an Uncle Tom.
Carter: "what I consider crimes against our own laws and against our constitution.”
Great! One of our former (and present) Democratic Presidents is able to read our Federal Law On Torture http://tinyurl.com/besdd3
and tell it like it is...
TORTURE Is a Federal Capital Crime
punishable by 20 years to life, and death if the prisoner dies of torture.
Similar penalties apply just for conspiracy to torture, which certainly happened. Bush, Cheney and their Lawyers were all in on it.
Just shows us what a cowardly wimp President Clinton was that he hasn't spoken out in support of our Rule Of Law and Constitution. Most of we rank and file Democrats supported Clinton all through his impeachment and beyond.
This is how he rewards us. With his Silence.
If President Obama continues to Refuse To Enforce Our Federal Laws and Constitution
All will know that OBAMA IS SOFT ON CRIME
( for those committed by politicians).
But, I'll bet he'd throw you and I in jail for a long time for violating Federal laws.
Obama apparently supports a double standard of Justice. One for you and I where we get prosecuted for all violations and another Justice for politicians where the Bush, Cheney and their appointee Lawyers are protected from prosecution of know crimes by Obama and his appointee Lawyers. Obama took an Oath promising to faithfully enforce our laws and protect our Constitution.
Make him do it.
If you do nothing else for your Country today,
SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Them For Torture
AT ANGRYVOTERS dot ORG
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
Over 250,000 have signed
Join them and call yourself a Patriot
.
I'm glad that Jimmy Carter changed his ways after creating the Taliban and supporting the genocides in Cambodia and East Timor. His retirement has been beneficial to America and the rest of the world, and he has atoned for his own past enough to speak on the issues.
Let's hope that Obama, sooner rather than later, experiences his own conversion and changes his ways. Perhaps some of the much-vilified Reverend Wright's lessons will germinate, even in soil polluted by too much advice from too many foreign policy intellectuals besotted with warmongering, bloodlust and arrogance and unencumbered by cross-cultural understanding, the lessons of history, morality or common decency.
"Jimmy Carter" Creating the Taliban? That is the most idiotic thing that I have had the misfortune to read this week. Where do you live? Right across from KPFA in Berkeley?
Doc Brian you are a quack and need to retire to a rest home!
Siderealm,
Kindly refer to this article
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html
which documents that the Carter administration did initiate aid and arms to the mujahadeen who later became the Taliban, by Brzezinski's own admission.
I won't sink to your level with ad hominem attacks and accusations of incompetence and insanity, but I will suggest that you make sure you have at least some vague idea of the subject at hand before saying nasty things about people. As Lincoln said, "It's better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
Perhaps I over reacted to your Carter bashing which is a variation of Clinton bashing where neoconservatives like to blame the previous Democrat for all evils when in truth their hands were relatively clean. Ziggy B. is not a paragon of liberal authenticity and usually speaks before his brain is fully engaged and is quite partisan. You dance with the bloke who brung you to the party.
To begin with:
The Taliban's wounds are a constant reminder of 29 years of war which has killed over 1.5 million people and devastated the country. The problems began in the 1960's when the Soviets looked for a path to the sea through Afghanistan for the oil at Aspheron Trend Oil Field which lies betweeen Baku and Korprdzha right in the middle of the lower half of the Caspian Sea. There is a second oil field at the northern tip of the Caspian Sea, the Tenghiz Oil Field which also needs a path to the sea where it can be tanked out. Iran won't let that sea be the Arabian Sea so it was necessary to find a way through the relatively primitive regions of Turkmenistan and Afganistan and for the Tenghiz field in the north Uzbekistan and then through Afghanistan. For nearly 20 years from the 1960's the US viewed this as a Soviet problem but in 1992 UnoCal took a stake in the Soviet interests and figured that they could manipulate the Clinton Administration and apply pressure to push through Afghanistan. This has always been a joint activity with Soviets and American interests. Since the 1960's.
In December 1979, the Soviet tanks began to roll into Khandahar after 20 years of negotiations failed with Afghanistan the Soviets decided to just go in and take over the country. Teenage Soviet soldiers had driven 2 days from Soviet Turkmenistan on a metalled highway that the Soviets had themselves built in the 1960's (one nine six zero)--not a mis-typing. On the 27th of December 1979 the Soviet Spetsnatz (Special Forces) stormed the palace of President Hafizullah Amin in Kabul, killed him, occupied Kabul and appointed Babrak Karmal as President.
The Soviet Union poured some US$5 billion a year into Afghanistan to subdue the Mujaheddin or a total of 45 billion dollars between just between 1980 and 1992 and they lost. The US committed some 4-5 billion dollars total between 1980 and 1992 in total aid to the Mujaheedin. US funds were matched by Saudi Arabia and together with support from other European and Islamic countries amounting to US$10 billion. Most of this aid was in the form of modern lethal weaponry given to simple agricultural people who used it with devastating results.
When the resistance began around Kandahar it was based on the tribal network of the Durranis. In Kandahar the struggle agaist the Soviets was a tribal jihad led by clan chiefs and ulema (senior religious scholars) rather than jihad led by Islamicists. In Peshawar there were seven Mujaheddin parties which were recognized by Pakistan and also received a share of aid from the CIA pipeline which was minimally involved through co-operative arrangements with the Soviets which go back to the 1960's.
This is not, I repeat, Not Jimmy Carter's fault. NOT!
I suggest reading "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid, Yale University Press, 2000. which is becoming the standard work on Central Asian politics and oil.
Zbigniew Brzezinski: How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen
___________________________________
http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html
· Yr Obd't Servant
Carter's a good man, but certainly not aggressive. He's also not a lawyer. The description of "a complete examination of what did happen, the identification of any perpetrators of crimes against our own laws or against international law and then after all that's done, [a decision] whether or not there should be any prosecutions" sounds an awful lot like the normal process of prosecution. You start out with criminal investigation, and then you turn the evidence over the prosecutors who determine whether the evidence supports further steps -- beginning with indictment. Although I was skeptical that this could happen when the discussion of torture started heating up, after learning more about the specific laws involved, I think prosecution is feasible. I still say, start by going after the law licenses of Bush administration lawyers who advised that methods plainly prohibited by law weren't illegal. There's already a good effort toward that led by Kevin Zeese and his organizations, VotersForPeace.US and the Velvet Revolution.
Solution: we have 12 ordinary citizens view the photos, if they think there is evidence of misconduct, the AG must than move forward on prosecution.
Now, how do we communicate this to the people that will matter and can put it together?
Jimmy Carter is provocatively hypocritical from what I know through personal involvement in his own presidency's dark Trilateral secrets. I would like to provide a link to my own story about Jimmy Carter's secret violations of the nation's laws and international laws because the details are too vast to relate right here. The link is not a commercial link because I have made my story download free at this impeccable safe, known, MacAfee tested website.
http://stores.lulu.com/OneWorldOneRevolution
The unit to scroll down to there is called "The Scripting of the Carter Presidency." There you will find reason to support my contention of Carter's hypocrisy. I'm not saying he is wrong about Obama's own reversals and hypocrisy. I'm just saying that my report of Carter's presidency is ever more defining of America. It would be a shame if you cannot get into this, and I hope some of my other discussions in my story will not distract you from demanding that the Carter part of my story get validation from Jimmy Carter himself.
"But he's made a decision with which I really can't contend that he doesn't want to resurrect the past, he doesn't want to punish those who are guilty of perpetrating of what I consider crimes against our own laws and against our own constitution."
___________________________
Carter's quoted remarks are not nearly as critical or confrontational as the headline implies.
Carter, an old-school Southern Gentleman, has had a much longer-- and arguably more successful-- career as an independent ambassador without portfolio: a diplomat. Thus, he habitually expresses himself in measured and restrained terms.
I haven't followed his post-presidential life closely, but I believe it's correct to say that his post-presidential career arose from the force of Carter's own individual will and character; despite occasional meetings with successive administrations, Carter has been generally treated as a liability, even a pariah, by his ambitious successors.
He's obviously a Democratic Odd Man Out when it comes to obsequious genuflection to Israel and AIPAC.
I don't recall any indication that the government in any way invited his active assistance in international relations, or particularly encouraged or supported his determination to work for international justice and peace.
It's a testimonial to his courage and resolve that Jimmy Carter has accomplished so much, and promoted the human rights and democratic values that our own government ought to be promoting-- but does not. Unless one counts grand and glorious speechifyin'.
Again, it's only my assumption-- but I think Carter recognized that as an ex-President, he could act independently to pursue his diplomatic and political work without asking permission, or inviting the kind of carping that occurs when a citizen like Jesse Jackson goes abroad on a private goodwill mission.
I applaud Scahill for circulating Carter's comments, and agree that beneath Carter's modest and deferential rhetoric there is a note of true disapproval.
But I doubt that the Pragmatrons in the Executive Branch credit Carter's views and opinion. They'll politely blow him off.
· Yr Obd't Servant
If they wanted to, people like Carter and Gore could come right out and say that in office they had to act like neocons to keep from getting thrown in the meat grinder. But they don't because even today they are really still in the game, the elite war on people.
To Obedient Servant June 1st, 2009 8:32 pm:
Good thinking, nice posting!
Bring America Back !!!!...........but you needed to at least mention that for his after-Presidency work==he has been awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace !! That ain't chopped liver now is it ???
the truth always hurts eh?
I voted for myself to be Head Honcho of your Nation. I didn't win but that is how it goes sometimes. I figured I couldn't screw things up any worse than anyone else, but you never know?
Just another day closer to my journey being completed through this world whatever it is?
Life is good. What an experience! It's always best to forgive.
Shadow Dancer, I'd vote for you.
May your journey in this world
always warm you, may the only tears you
know be of laughter, may stars, flowers
and streams be always at your beck
and call.
"I think prosecuting is too strong a word"
Oh my, my, my! Oh Lordy!
(Oh well. At least he's being diplomatic... )
First of all, I seriously doubt that the real war criminals are in any of the pictures. They aren't the type to dirty their hands. The only people in the pictures, I'll bet a dollar, are the people he's already said he wan't going to prosecute -- the poor dumb German soldiers just carrying out orders. You think Cheney was out there exercising command and control? Not on camera he wasn't (same dollar).
Secondly there's an established rule of law which prevents evidence which, on balance, is more unfairly prejudicial or inflammatory than it's worth as proof of something. We know what happened and we aren't going to prosecute those who obeyed orders. That's what Republicans do. They bounce some lower ranking fall guy around and have a state funeral 10 years later for the guys who were in command and control -- those who's idea it was, the planners, etc. Obama has never said those guys aren't going to be prosecuted or investigated or whatever. With that same dollar, I'm betting President Carter is just testing the water, because it's really up to us to put the pressure on. What Obama has said is that justice will run it's course. That is to say it's up to the Attorney General and Congress to do their jobs. We have to put the squeeze on them, not him.
Ultimately, I just don't want to look at pictures of the atrocities done in my name. It would inflame hell out of me. Nor do I want them used as propaganda as illustrative of what was done and why it's OK to repay in kind. We've made a great deal of 'of by and for', and in that sense we are not innocent civilians.
I druther strip the SOB's in charge of everything they touched, and move them into the lower 9th ward with FEMA in charge of their care, food, housing, etc., for the rest of their unnatural lives.
And finally, I don't know what any of this has to do with 'corporations' as such, and it purely amazes me that strict constructionists (and everyone else) has made up a 'fiction' (a damnable lie in legalese) giving them civil rights. They should be treated as pirates when they don't strictly serve the public good, a key promise each corporation makes at the time it is created. When they break the law or act other than in the public interest, they should have no civil rights and should be summarily destroyed with their assets forfeit. Officers and employees who abuse corporate status by acting in other than the public interest, should be criminally prosecuted. But we do nothing of the sort.
The only reservation I have is to Blackwater. They ain't GI's. If they are in the pictures, there should be hell to pay. I don't need to see them. The judge can do it so I don't have to foul my head, heart, hands and health. It's one of the reasons we have judges instead of robots
Amen
I especially liked your last 2 sentences!!
Also, let's not add to the humiliation that the torture victims have already experienced by showing their pictures around the world on the Internet.
Let us not participate as voyeurs to this violence, either.
I reject the notion that we ALL must see these photographs.
Unlike Jimmy, I believe we already know enough to prosecute the guilty ones.
But if it takes a "Truth Commission" for that to happen- let's get on with it!!
Crimes were committed- there HAS to be some accountability.
Give me a reason why any American capable of planning and getting away with a crime should not do so. We're obviously not a nation of laws.
Because, NRA notwithstanding, they have bigger guns than we do.
Why doesn't O'Bama just forward all the BushCo incriminating evidence to The Hague, and be done with it, once and for all?
Obamba only needs to join the rest of the world in the International Criminal Court and everything would proceed post haste. The Hague (or World Court) is older an more incumbered by the UN security council veto.
So one most only join the ICC.
Remember Bush's reason for not joining the ICC was so he would not be liable for knowingly committing War Crimes.
i'd like to see carter and brzinsky tried for the huge war crime of destabilizing afghanistan to draw in the russians, and for starting to create the mujahadeem together with the pakistani security service. those wages of sanctimonious jimmy are still with us, and will be till kingdom come.
Yep, that cold war mentality...USSR the evil empire..etc.etc. But tried for "war crimes?" I afraid that if we were to apply the standard you are suggesting here it would be a crowded docket indeed....But I do get your point....
If the crimes of the Bush administration are not exposed and punished, the next group waiting in the wings will be much worse.
You can already see them gathering their corporate sponsored hatred and lies under "distinguished" leaders like Rush Limbaugh, a combination of Adolf Hitler and Hermann Goering and the Republican equivalent of Joseph Goebbels, Karl Rove.
Sorry to say that Obama is proving to be more and more in the pockets of the corporations than I previously believed. I knew he leaned that way, but now it's pretty obvious that he's more than ready to fall in lock-step with the will of those who live by the lie that a corporation is a "person."
No investigations or prosecutions? Exactly the way the $ bosses want it. Carter was really no different with this. He, like just about every (if not every) politician had his wind-up key surgically attached when he was president (and governor before that).
We need another Teddy or Franklin in the oval office so badly; someone who will investigate and prosecute, someone who will demand a move NOW to a green economy (not just the token gestures by Obama), someone who will demand that money be taken out of elections - move to publicly-financed elections, someone who will put the pressure on the 4th estate (media) to report news as a public service - something that will be much easier to do with money taken away from elections - and someone who will line up his/her ACTIONS with their words.
Probably a pretty unrealistic dream.
Obama is wimping out.
Maybe an effective 3rd party effort? Seems distant as well, doesn't it.
Please talk me out of my despair.
donilo
Corporate "personhood" is one of the lies that Congress needs to address, but since most of them are in the pockets of the corporations, it's probably never going to happen.
Most things that people feel are "never going to happen" just take more than one step. Something has to happen before the initial goal can happen. In this case, strangely, we need to liberate our representatives from corporate influence.
I don't mean to suggest that many of them wish to be liberated much of the time. But they don't serve the corporations out of love; they serve them out of greed and lust for power.
donilo, "Sorry to say that Obama is proving to be more and more in the pockets of the corporations"
Who woulda thunk, eh?
Don't feel bad, donilo, slightly over half the Americans actually were conned into thinking (by Democratic Party PR, propaganda, and overt lies) that Obama was going to be 'for them' and 'against' the corporatist Empire --- while slightly less than half the American proles were duped by the very same "corporatist Empire's" right-wing-nut media, that the Democrats were actually going to tax away their non-existing estate wealth, take away their guns, and attack their non-existing freedom --- and they voted in fear for Republicans.
Unfortunately, very few Americans understand that the phony charade of what passes for an election under in this 'Vichy' democratic Republic (which they still believe is 'their country') is totally controlled by the ruling-elite 'corporate financial Empire' --- nor do they understand that this 'show' called democracy, and totally scripted and rehearsed by the Empire is three orders of magnitude more professionally managed and controlled by the Empire than is a typical WWF grudge match 'show'.
Yes, folks, it is the ruling-elite 'corporate financial Empire' that totally creates, scripts, and produces the 'show' called elections, and has their paid 'actors' called Democrat and Republican parties (and individual politician whores) step into that 'exciting ring' called the political grudge match every four years precisely to ----- fool the shit out of you peons, serfs, and proles. And you buy, lap-it-up, whoop, yell, and cheer for your phony heroes just as loud, and even louder, than at a WWF or NASCAR staged 'show' --- except that serious and gravitas looking shills like Brian Williams, Timmy Russett (god rest his lies), Tom 'flathead' Friedman, George Steponhisdick, and thousands of others in on the 'con-game' and paid by the Empire to make it 'ever-so-exciting' get you all to vote for either of the Empire controlled parties, neither of which wil do anything different and are totally pre-approved (ney, pre-selected and given their 'script lines') by the rulingelite' corporate financial Empire' that hides behind the curtain and runs this whole friggin scam with the facade of a two-party 'Vichy' charade that would make Goebbels cry with admiration and apologize to his boss that, "Mein Fuhrer. You would still be in power if I had only had the brilliance to build our crude, single-party, 'Vichy' charade in the 'homeland' instead of France --- and if I had seen the tremendous value in making it a better disguised TWO-PARTY 'Vichy' scam"!
So, donilo, the 'lesson learned' (or rather, the lesson we should have learned) after this many seasons of believing Lucy about her promises to hold the 'football' and falling on our arses, as she pulled it away year after year after year (and election after election after election) is that there is a profound and unchanging 'Three Card Monte' con going on 'right here in River City' and it starts with 'c' and that rhymes with 'E' and that stands for EMPIRE.
However, as John Beluchi used to continually say on the old funny (seriously insightful) SNL, "But, NOOOOOOO" we just keep buying the same dog-food, and so the Empire just keeps filling our dish evey four years --- nad then we are surprised as hell that the stinking shit tastes the same no matter which bowl (labeled 'R' or 'D') that we eat it out of!!!
Well, donilo, maybe, just maybe, the dog food and it's manufacturer (the hidden Empire behind the TV screen) is about to hit the fan. At which time the Empire may shout, as past Empires in Rome, Britain, France, Germany, and the Soviet Empire shouted, "Who let the dogs out?"
Hey donilo, "Let's go dog"
>>>amacd wrote:... while slightly less than half the American proles were duped by the very same "corporatist Empire's" right-wing-nut media, that the Democrats were actually going to tax away their non-existing estate wealth, take away their guns, and attack their non-existing freedom --- and they voted in fear for Republicans.
Well said. I am amused by this every time I hear right-wingers talk about tax. When Warren Buffett is for estate tax (as is Bill Gates Sr.), these wannabes oppose it calling it "death tax". Comic! Your entire post is a classic insult - but amazingly, no one is going to protest :)
Hi amacd,
Thanks for your message. I particularly like any reference to the Vichy government, reminding me of the wonderful scenes in Casablanca, highlighted by Claude Raines saying, "The heart is my least vulnerable organ." And of course few could match John Belushi on the old SNL.
Thanks for reminding me that humor is so vital for us - especially in these times of 1984 scenarios becoming reality.
BTW, take notice of the work going on at ae911truth.org. They finally seem to be making some cracks in the wall that's been put around those of us who call for a reinvestigation of 9/11 (the label of "truthies").
Woof!
donilo
Okay, so we can all agree Jimmy's a charming guy (a characteristic that explains a lot about why he and most Democratic presidential candidates get elected in the first place) who has done some decent stuff since he got out of office. He was still a ruling class vetted imperialist who ran the U.S. in a period where it engaged in the same sorts of economic, military, and covert actions that U.S. presidents have always overseen on behalf of powerful interests and against the interests of the majority of people on the planet.
Donilo, I don't know where you get the notion that a "Teddy or Franklin in the oval office" is what we need but I might suggest you read more widely about what both stood for and did.
In the meantime, here is a suggestion in regards to your lament that "Obama is wimping out. Maybe an effective 3rd party effort? Seems distant as well, doesn't it. Please talk me out of my despair."
How about instead trying to talk you into getting involved in a 3rd party effort. And instead of making it distant, start now. Take your pick among those candidates who spoke crystal clear against the imperialist wars of the U.S. during the 2008 presidential election such as Nader, Kucinich, or McKinney. Or Gloria La Riva or Brian Moore. It would be a great learning experience for you and action might cure your unrealistic dreaming and help as well with your despair.
It is either that or face an endless succession of candidates thrown up by the two party ruling class consensus and managed in the 18 month long process known as the U.S. presidential elections to assure that no one who in the least constitutes a threat to the ruling class capitalist/imperialist system ever comes close to the levers of power in the U.S.
In the end, I have always believed that the U.S. populace is too confused, too materially comfortable (even in the midst of this crisis), too numbed by propaganda from the media and the government, and too cowardly to do anything which will change the two party game of musical chairs. It will be the persecuted, bombed, tortured, exploited, and slandered peoples of the world who will in the end stand up to the US government (and its people in the form of the troops sent to brutalize, murder, rape/sodomize, and torture them) and free themselves. The solution to the problem is the end of the U.S. empire and in that game the U.S. citizenry is in its great majority a non-player. Sad but true.
David Brookbank -- "Hasta donde debemos practicar las verdades".
David, I agree with your solution, but let me add this as well. VOLUNTEER for these candidates whenever you can. Money is a huge problem for any third party candidate. Also support Instant Runoff Voting(this election method allows your vote to transfer to another candidate if your fist choice does not get sufficient first place votes, this will remove the excuse "if I vote for Nader then the Repug wins".)
PS I saw Brian Moore at Nova University when he was running vs Nelson in Florida, what a speech!
President Carter said this illegal war would be a disaster. I had high hopes for Obama but as soon as he started picking his Zionist cabinet I knew nothing had changed. America is doomed.
Do you see the pattern? Every election season when elites are elected, hopes raised high, then dashed?
It isn't popular to say, but in my view Jimmy Carter was one the US's finest presidents, even if like a majority of US presidents he couldn't pronounce the word nuclear. He said nuculear.
I totally agree. Jimmy Carter was a decent man who had to do despicable things to appease those that brung him to the dance. The fact that he is so out-spoken in his retirement is commendable.
I agree Grumbler, compared to all of the post John Kennedy presidents, Carter stands out as the only one willing to throw a few crumbs to the working class.
Among Democrats, Johnson, Clinton and Obama were constantly trying to prove that they are just as fascist as real Republicans.
Every time some neocon calls Obama a socialist, Obama promotes additional fascist legislation to show them just how fascist he can be. The neocons are playing Obama like a fiddle.
"Among Democrats, Johnson, Clinton and Obama were constantly trying to prove that they are just as fascist as real Republicans."
This is what comes of saying whatever comes into your head.
This isn't about justice -- nobody is going to jail over this except innocent sheppards or a bunch of freedom fighters. This is about inciting as much as possible effect to keep this war going. Since it takes an enemy to keep a war going and this is the best way to do it.
So, just say NO! next time you are called to do jury service.
1. Tell the judge you are looking forward, no one is guilty
2. I wll serve when America becomes a nation of laws ...again.
3.When you put the little deserter and his crew on trial for war crimes, then I'll serve.
4. When you put the people who tortured in my name on trial, then I'll serve.
5. When the judge tell you it's your duty to serve, ask him what is the duty of the Justice dept.
No justice for the pig's? Then we shut down the justice system.
Oregoncharles
Then they'll get someone else who will serve.
Brilliant
If we are silent, even stones cry out.
spinwing
It's amazing how much pussy footing occurs when state sponsored crime is involved. Compare this to rape, bank robbery, manslaughter (accidentally running over someone with your car when you are drunk). The legal system is a hodge podge of cherry picking selective laws followed by outrageous selective enforcement. Check your conscience and morals at the door if you want to be a "successful" cop, lawyer or judge in this country.
To AGG June 1st, 2009 5:08 pm:
I am afraid that your remarks are so true.
Basically, we have double standards, if not triple or quadruple standards.
The cherry picking is determined by two things - race and class. If you have money and are white, you can get away with just about anything.
tanguero, class more than race.
And when it comes to the big crimes, like the ultimate war crime of launching a preemptive aggressive war, the ruling-class, of this 'corporate financial Empire' hiding behind the facade of its two-party 'Vichy' sham of democracy, is in a class by itself in terms of slipping the hangman's all-too-justifiable noose.
The upper class may be able to get away with murder, but only the ruling-class can get away with war crimes and mega-murder.
Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine
AGG June 1st, 2009 5:08 pm..They exist under different laws than We the People...
usavsus.info.
Let us not forgot as we congratulate Carter for his good words that his words as pres called the oil in the middle east ours with his policy of the middle east as an area of OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.Setting in motion wholesale attacks of multiple countries multiple times.
Just another strong male democrat with peanuts on his breath.I am glad that when a nail sticks up Jimmy is there to pound it down.
Some people (granted, not many), even some ex-presidents, do change their views and are entitled to do so, aren't they?
As for me, I commend and admire Carter, and am grateful for he has been doing and saying, since he left the presidency.
Yeah, let's not listen to a man who has done more out of office than many have done in office. Let's not listen to a witness for peace, since at one time he was an imperfect vessel. Let's instead, move forward and not look into what this man is saying.
Better?
Well said. Whenever anyone does something good, there are always people in these forums who undercut and distract with not-good-enough or they're-all-the-same type comments. It almost seems orchestrated.
Ok, maybe something not so old...
__Right now, Jimmy Carter is one of the few with any on-stage volume that is calling for what's right.
__Whatever his past (oh yeah, 40 years ago?), he's been dedicated to helping many of those who need it most just to get through the day.
__And I believe we need to send the message that we will not tolerate war crimes by our own "leaders." And send that both to our youth for the sake of their learning values, and to the world - especially to the Middle-East.
__Forgiveness need not rule out accountability, IMO - both necessarily have their place in all things. But we cannot tell our kids one thing, and then do another very long without consequences - any longer than we can do that with our world neighbors.
_*_IMO the Iraqi's will respect us for exposing what the *last* administration did, AND especially for resolving (with teeth enforced laws) what we will never do again. It will break some hearts and inflame some for a while, but the Iraqi's and other Arab peoples have already got a really good idea of what went on. The extremists may try to get some footage with it, but they depend on the other peoples for their funding and other support -- which (If I'm correct above) may not increase that much over any appreciable period of time due to our going clean. I think this opinion, if expressed well by someone with more clout than I, could lead to more groundswell and letters to the prez...
__And Mr. Obama is not "BushIII" - he's the type that will take forever unless he gets a lot of citizen support (or push) - that's what got him in office, so maybe he expects something close to a mandate to get him to swim upstream in that trough with/against the best elected officials money will pay for. But we just consign him to the mud at the bottom of it before he's found where better currents are, well, then we'll probably get what we call for.
__Thanks for the listen
Unfortunately Carter is still triangulating. We on the far left have identified triangulation as a serious dysfunction. When is everyone going to do the same?
Demonstrating my point.
I guess I'm not as far left as you. Not that it means a damn thing.
Triangulation may be a dysfunction, but we do our best in a dysfunctional world where we are all dysfunctional. Those who claim not to be, I run from...fast!
Ted, yes.
I believe, as you imply of Obama's preference, that Goring and Hess also believed it would be preferable to "move forward and not look backward".
Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine
Ted,
I agree. President Carter as a sitting president was one thing. (Some loved him others did not) But...surely we can all agree that the post presidential, President Carter,is a man we can all admire and respect.
Abe Winken June 1st, 2009 5:02 pm....No doubt, Carter is just another politician doing covert Mea Culpas, but I'll take anyone who will stand up to the new WH Gestapo.
Anyone but Jimmy Carter, of course.