Delicious
Digg
StumbleUpon
Newsvine
Facebook
Google
Yahoo
TechnoratiThe United States is operating "floating prisons" to house those arrested in its war on terror, according to human rights lawyers, who claim there has been an attempt to conceal the numbers and whereabouts of detainees.
Details of ships where detainees have been held and sites allegedly being used in countries across the world have been compiled as the debate over detention without trial intensifies on both sides of the Atlantic. The US government was yesterday urged to list the names and whereabouts of all those detained.
Information about the operation of prison ships has emerged through a number of sources, including statements from the US military, the Council of Europe and related parliamentary bodies, and the testimonies of prisoners.
The analysis, due to be published this year by the human rights organisation Reprieve, also claims there have been more than 200 new cases of rendition since 2006, when President George Bush declared that the practice had stopped.
It is the use of ships to detain prisoners, however, that is raising fresh concern and demands for inquiries in Britain and the US.
According to research carried out by Reprieve, the US may have used as many as 17 ships as "floating prisons" since 2001. Detainees are interrogated aboard the vessels and then rendered to other, often undisclosed, locations, it is claimed.
Ships that are understood to have held prisoners include the USS Bataan and USS Peleliu. A further 15 ships are suspected of having operated around the British territory of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, which has been used as a military base by the UK and the Americans.
Reprieve will raise particular concerns over the activities of the USS Ashland and the time it spent off Somalia in early 2007 conducting maritime security operations in an effort to capture al-Qaida terrorists.
At this time many people were abducted by Somali, Kenyan and Ethiopian forces in a systematic operation involving regular interrogations by individuals believed to be members of the FBI and CIA. Ultimately more than 100 individuals were "disappeared" to prisons in locations including Kenya, Somalia, Ethiopia, Djibouti and Guantánamo Bay.
Reprieve believes prisoners may have also been held for interrogation on the USS Ashland and other ships in the Gulf of Aden during this time.
The Reprieve study includes the account of a prisoner released from Guantánamo Bay, who described a fellow inmate's story of detention on an amphibious assault ship. "One of my fellow prisoners in Guantánamo was at sea on an American ship with about 50 others before coming to Guantánamo ... he was in the cage next to me. He told me that there were about 50 other people on the ship. They were all closed off in the bottom of the ship. The prisoner commented to me that it was like something you see on TV. The people held on the ship were beaten even more severely than in Guantánamo."
Clive Stafford Smith, Reprieve's legal director, said: "They choose ships to try to keep their misconduct as far as possible from the prying eyes of the media and lawyers. We will eventually reunite these ghost prisoners with their legal rights.
"By its own admission, the US government is currently detaining at least 26,000 people without trial in secret prisons, and information suggests up to 80,000 have been 'through the system' since 2001. The US government must show a commitment to rights and basic humanity by immediately revealing who these people are, where they are, and what has been done to them."
Andrew Tyrie, the Conservative MP who chairs the all-party parliamentary group on extraordinary rendition, called for the US and UK governments to come clean over the holding of detainees.
"Little by little, the truth is coming out on extraordinary rendition. The rest will come, in time. Better for governments to be candid now, rather than later. Greater transparency will provide increased confidence that President Bush's departure from justice and the rule of law in the aftermath of September 11 is being reversed, and can help to win back the confidence of moderate Muslim communities, whose support is crucial in tackling dangerous extremism."
The Liberal Democrat's foreign affairs spokesman, Edward Davey, said: "If the Bush administration is using British territories to aid and abet illegal state abduction, it would amount to a huge breach of trust with the British government. Ministers must make absolutely clear that they would not support such illegal activity, either directly or indirectly."
A US navy spokesman, Commander Jeffrey Gordon, told the Guardian: "There are no detention facilities on US navy ships." However, he added that it was a matter of public record that some individuals had been put on ships "for a few days" during what he called the initial days of detention. He declined to comment on reports that US naval vessels stationed in or near Diego Garcia had been used as "prison ships".
The Foreign Office referred to David Miliband's statement last February admitting to MPs that, despite previous assurances to the contrary, US rendition flights had twice landed on Diego Garcia. He said he had asked his officials to compile a list of all flights on which rendition had been alleged.
CIA "black sites" are also believed to have operated in Thailand, Afghanistan, Poland and Romania.
In addition, numerous prisoners have been "extraordinarily rendered" to US allies and are alleged to have been tortured in secret prisons in countries such as Syria, Jordan, Morocco and Egypt.
© 2008 The Guardian
49 Comments so far
Show AllPapercut, we have to keep trying to change the way things are. Now that more and more people are unemployed, do to Corporate cutbacks, we have more time for important things like emailing your lawmaker. tell them to stop wasting our money. and vote. you know they Just might listen to us.
Jewbacca_Returns:
"...is a bit much I think"
Uh what pray tell is a bit much? Is that like, um...maybe:
a) a tad off?
b) slightly greater?
c) pretty sure?
d) more or less?
e) more than likely?
f) highly probable?
17 ships as floating prisons...... CIA "black sites" are also believed to have operated in Thailand, Afghanistan, Poland and Romania.
Does Congress, with their exemplary counsel on oversight have any idea how much of our tax dollars are being wasted on these prisons while 48 million Americans are without health insurance?
PaulK:
That's sooo typically American of you to conveniently omit that there were Philippinos who were also a part of that infamous Death March-nice one!
To try at an answer for your question Jewdini/bacca:
The suspicious bit -to me, and I imagine the Brits- about shipboard detention and interrogation sites has to due with the whole "international waters" and "rights to the sea" thing.
Even Guantanamo Bay is a military Base, and therefore U.S. territory, in this case derived from treaty with Spain and (maybe, can't recall) Cuba. So the lawyers for detainees can redress the U.S. federal government on behalf of their clients. They've been shunted to the Military Courts and all kinds of other bullshit by the Strict Un-Constitutionalists in the Government and the Supreme Court. But still, at least legally and technically there is a There there, if you follow.
But when the USS Ashland is out in the middle of the Atlantic, far from any territorial waters, where is it? What sovereign entity does one apply to for redress? The U.N.? I don't know. I bet most people -including lawyers- wouldn't know. I doubt maritime law is quite as popular as it was in the 19th century, don't you?
Beyond this, of course, is the whole "in space no one can hear you scream" aspect of a tightly regimented military crew, on a vessel of extra-ordinary size and complexity, far, far away from the shore and prying eyes.
I think the British MPs etc. in this article have the same gut feeling as me, i.e. "Look what they've done on land that we've already uncovered, if they have facilities out at sea, just imagine what they'd be doing there!"
Remember also that the issue of British involvement in "rendition flights" etc. has already got them pissed because of their crazy, old-fashioned belief in Laws and Rights. So that's the background that explains this suspicion.
Every once and awhile people forget that Laws don't just protect the powerful from the weak, but also the powerful from themselves.
They then try to exert power in subversion of the Laws, and -just as is happening now with the elites in the U.S.- in the end this attempt always fails.
Humans just don't have that kind of power, and the idea that machines or organizations can overcome this natural weakness is based in flawed reasoning and wishful thinking.
The "evidence" for this assertion can be found by merely looking around and actually seeing the World.
Have fun,
-matti.
Torture, rendition and selection of detainees have little to do with a 'war on terror'.
Such things have been going on for some time in many parts of the world including Europe and the US. But, few victims have lived to tell their tales.
And it is plain old human experimentation...
the very same engaged in by the Nazis in Germany, the CIA with MK-Ultra in the fifties and sixties...
What we are seeing is world wide acceptance of kidnapping of dissidents, progressives and 'others of interest' to be used in all sorts of investigations and experiments involving every possible form of torture.
The technologies used involve ultra sophisticated torture techniques as well as psychotronic drugs and advanced perception distorting and mood altering devices and weaponry.
The 'war on terror' is a convenient cover for NATO's secret human experimentation programs.
most amerikans are really really ignorant and hate-filled and they like bush/cheney gang. amerikans dont like the secret things so they will pretend to elect an person not so secret. but amerika vote has not counted for 8+ years but ignorant memory damaged amerikans think their vote will count for some change this year. amerikans cant do anything except kill and hurt and forget.
Bush, Cheney, Gates and Rice are playing a shell game worthy of Pinochet and Stalin with unlawfully abducted people, hiding them from the media, legal counsel, the courts, the public and, a fortiori, from the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions and US and international law.
If murder, torture, forced disappearance and false imprisonment are not grounds for impeachment, I cannot imagine why Ms Pelosi and her fellow spineless politicians think our Founding Fathers provided for it. What would a president have to do? The majority of the House once thought that lying about a bit of extramarital hanky-panky was grounds, but now it seems that the checks have been checked and the balances unbalanced.
Maybe they can bring back the old british penality of Keelhauling the non-compliant.
Arrgh!
Jewbaca:
>>Ghawar, our navy ships ARE involved in humanitarian interventions, such as during the tsunami a few years back, and I think we offered to send naval help to burma. We do more of this kind of thing for the world then all other countries put together, so while your point is totally valid, I think that what you suggest is already happening, at least for limited periods of time.<<
Cuba was recently honored by the International Community for its medical missions around the world. Over 45000 Cubans have provided medical services in 98 different countries since the first mission in 1965. These people serve for a year of longer in poor villages that lack any medical care, and work to establish
local clinics staffed by Cuban trained Doctors.
Cuba has also sent over 16,000 educators to Latin American and African countries to establish literacy programs. They have one group working in New Zealand with the indigenous Maoris as I write this.
The US recently sent a medical ship to Panama to provide care for the needy in Panama City. I cannot quote the exact article, but it was in Panama for no longer then 3 months [perhaps much less], before going on its way and leaving the poor with no medical care once again.
Dare I mention the thousands of Medical Students from other countries, including the US, studying medicine in Cuba - FREE! There are so many, that the Florida Leg. recently banned Cuban trained Doctors from practicing there, no matter how well they did on the licensing exams.
I suggest you also read up on the amount of help our own citizens received from the military hospital ships after Katrina. It took them weeks to arrive, and, once again, they didn't hang around after the first photo ops.
Our Government turned down Cuba's offer of Medical Personnel after Katrina though - it was tainted by COMMUNISM!
Prison ships are an abomination. The ones in New York Harbor and Boston Harbor during the Revolutionary War were Hell-Hole of pestilence, starvation and abuse. To return to the barbarity of the 18th Century simply because we can hide the evidence from the pub lic puts us right up there with Tojo and Himmler and all the other butchers - Oh, I forgot, Stalin was pretty good at barbarism too!
Jewbacca asked:
"Is there any, ANY evidence of human rights abuses on board these "prison ships"?"
How would we possibly know? That is the whole purpose of HIDING it from us. The fact that the record at ABu Gharaib is terrible and they feel the need to hide this in international waters from the eyes of the Red Cross speaks volumes though as to what they are LIKELY up to.
As you conservatives like to say when justifying domestic surveillance why would they mind being in the light of day if they aren't up to something "if they have nothing to hide..."
And I think bringing up Nazis here IS appropriate for out of country secret prison camps that know one knew what they were for is EXACTLY what the concentration camps were. Hint human rights are for all people not just U.S. citizens.
I do agree with you about the second amendment though and would fight by your side if the government turns on US, it's just too bad you aren't willing to acknowledge the WHOLE picture of U.S. government evil
Andrew, I (jewbacca) must simply protest at being called a "Bush supporter". Look, I don't mean to be too much of a pain in the ass, but I think I had some serious questions to ask regarding the tone of this article. IS there evidence of abuse? Is there something inherently "worse" about jailing people in boats? I'm not sure this is anything more then SYMBOLICALLY bad. It brings back bad memories, but its not qualitatively any worse then what's already going on. I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but these "emtional" stories and reaction piss me off, as it distracts from the REAL issues (like habeas corpus), and give us the false impression that not putting prisons on ships would be some kind of victory.
Andrew god put us on earth to piss people off. Should america be involved? I don't know. I do support israel as everyone here knows, but I do so using the same democratic means that are available to all of you, no matter how much you might want to think otherwise. If its so unpopular for us to support israel, how does it keep happening? Look at the grassroots reaction to illegal immigration. Has there been anything like this over israel? Anyway, don't respond to this part its off topic.
A little paperwork here, a change in registry there and POOF! "There are no detention facilities on US navy ships." And yet, "He declined to comment on reports that US naval vessels stationed in or near Diego Garcia had been used as "prison ships" And are they telling me there are no brigs on U.S. Navy ships? It's all just a horrible shell game. KEM was right with "Man overboard!" If anybody comes snooping around, meet George jetsam!
I'm with you jcrumb! If you payed your federal taxes, you supported this. But with the disclaimer that in a sense we really aren't paying for it because its all being financed on debt. What we're doing is paying the interest on the loans to the banks and foreign countries who pimp our politicians.
Revolution is nigh.
thanks rjmart01
I was going to make that very point.
Jewbacca is more patriotic than realistic. The USA rarely does anything charitable without strings attached.
A local parable to illustrate: a rich multiple MacDonalds owner in town wanted our area's best florist to make the best Christmas tree in for our YWCA's charity ball: "The Festival of Trees". Mac-Dees paid $2000 for one tree. The local Burger King dude found out and also ordered a $2000 tree (different of course but also lovely). It was the best year ever for the local charitable event.
However, when the Mackey-Dees guy got wind of the BK tree he was infuriated and actually threatened the volunteer florists who had "betrayed" him.
The USA does a lot of "charity" in this same vein of "giving". It is called geopolitical hegemony. We and our ingenious European counterparts have been at this colonialization business for several hundreds of years and sadly we pretend to be all about charity when our hearts are as far from charity as King Leopold's was during the Congo Free State reign of terror. Anyone who tells you differently is in serious denial.
On the African continent, US corporations and our allies steal 100x more wealth every year than we give the world's most impoverished people. This geopolitical raping goes completely unreported annually. Why? We give the Africans just enough to keep the dictators loyal. Every penny of charity gets miles of press coverage. Western civilzation's shameful track record in Africa will forever haunt our historical legacy.
DR Congo is the best modern example. Eisenhower ordered PanAfricanist Lumumba's assasination 1960 claiming he was a threat to our hegemony (copper ore-uranium ore). Afterwards General Mobutu was propped up by the CIA.
Recently DR Congo's cobalt-tantalum (cobalan) has become the hottest mineral on the planet for laptops and playstations and cell phones. Why do you think DR Congo has become the site of Africa's first World War? Every world power is busy propping up some regime or tribal faction to get a piece of the cobalan pie. Ever hear any connections between cell phones and Sudan or Rwanda or Congo? Why not?
The corporate media is too savvy for the truth, especially when the truth could jeopardize trillions in possible revenues.
As a patriot I believe America cannot afford to break all the rules. Maybe the War on Terror will be our undoing?
Jewbacca is Jewish, I assume? Jewbacca is a Star Wars fan and an American patriot who believes America is more than justified in fighting brutality with brutality? A Bush doctrine supporter?
Two content questions for Jewbacca: Is there any nation on earth that foments more universal hatred than Israel? If no, then why would it be in the interests of the USA to want to imitate all of the Jewish nation's (self-fulfilling prophesies) terror-producing policies? If brutality begets brutality (oaky that's three questions) shouldn't we try a new position? (sounds sexy, eh)
I do not share this Judeo-Christian death wish with my friends on the American right or the Israeli right.
floating prisons are under the same authority given to black prisons and contract prisons and foreign prisons i guess. in my opinion, the administration argument rests on the 'legal loopholes' that the administration's authority for detainees has somehow exempt the inherent, natural law that says: if a person is subject/dominated/incarcerated by you, then you have the full responsibility of the detainee. It was our rules and laws that govern how you treat detainees, not to lower yourself to the standards used by terrorists, but to hold your actions higher as a law abiding/humane entity. the current governments has lowered its standards/laws and has never shown recompense, refusing responsibility. I know 3 year olds that learn better than this.
wild
Ghawar,
"I would like, though, to tell others about a daydream I've had for a couple of years now. I like to think that at least one or two U.S. aircraft carriers, to start with, would be transformed into humanitarian and rescue ships."
Hi Ghawar,
I can tell you that under ordinary circumstances, (unlike the current never-ending-war-administration) US Navy amphibious warfare ships very much like the one in the photograph, used to perform these missions all the time. They are perfect for it. They carry a lot of large, heavy-lift helicopters, have a 500 bed hospital, hovercraft, landing-craft, and amphibious vehicles. Any time a typhoon, hurricane, or tsunami hit, one or two of these vessels would respond and some of the finest duty our navy has ever done has been this kind of relief work. Unfortunately, these ships are heavily tasked in the "War on terror" and recently, only the Indian Ocean tsunami has been afforded that kind of response.
After the Loma Prieta earthquake in San Francisco (the World Series quake) several nuclear-powered ships took over supplying parts of the electrical power grid and many ships used their pumps to charge hoses for the fire department to make up for broken water mains.
For JLocke: You should realize that once these pitiful things have been done to pitiful people and the government has gotten away with it, that the citizens you mentioned in your final paragraph are next. Once the "baddies" are neutralized, then you and I are next. We will have lost our Constitutional guarantees and while we were losing them we did nothing, particularly starting with Congress.
Jewbacca says: "our navy ships ARE involved in humanitarian interventions, such as during the tsunami a few years back, and I think we offered to send naval help to burma. We do more of this kind of thing for the world then all other countries put together".
Whenever somebody talks about how the USA does anything better than all the rest of the world put together, it's a sign that they're in deep denial. The USA does donate more than any other single country, but far, far less than "all other countries put together". (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp -- click on the "aid in dollars" tab, about 10% of the way down) And, since we're talking about comparative virtue here (as an implied offset to demonstrable vice), it's worthwhile to put things into proportion. As a share of national income, the USA donates less in humanitarian foreign aid than almost any other developed country.
The sad truth is that this country suffers on most objective comparisons with other developed nations, regardless of what aspect of life/livelihood is being compared. By considerable margins, we're not the healthiest, the wealthiest, the happiest, the free-est, the best educated, the most democratically governed, ... you name it. Anybody says we are, ask to see the data -- 99 times out of 100, they won't have any.
Of course, we're still the reigning world champion in terms of number of other countries invaded and repressive regimes propped up. Maybe that's something.
"The three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled that the detainees captured in Afghanistan aren't recognized as "persons"..."
"American law treats a corporation as a legal "person" that has standing to sue and be sued, distinct from its stockholders."
The USA, circa 2008. Just so we all understand that any crazy thing is possible at the moment.
Is there such a thing as an illegal enemy corporate combatant?
How would a lawyer meet with a client who is floating somewhere in the middle of an ocean?
June 2nd, 2008 1:52 pm:
"jlocke: I was under the impression it was not US citizens being put on these prison boats. If the government turns on us? That's what the second amendment is for."
I don't have the list of the disappeared prisoners. Perhaps you could share it with me. I do know that innocent people have been kidnapped off the street in Germany, Italy, the US and Somalia and sent to places like the Bagram and Guantanamo bases for torture. In any case, The US Congress has given US Presidents the power to declare unilaterally ANYONE ANYWHERE an "illegal combatant". What is an illegal combatant? It is anyone (American or not) picked up anywhere (America or not) and stripped of his or her human rights. American Presidents, or those working for a President, don't even have to inform anyone when they do this. As for the "second amendment", are you serious? The second amendment is about the right to "bear arms", right? What do you suggest, that torture victims in US floating prisons form a militia of all free white men?
The bush adminstration is going to be stripped right down to nothin'! We're gonna strip em' bare-arsed! Party's over! They better call their lawyers; they're gonna need to!
AND YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT ALL..IF YO HATE THIS..IF YOUR EALLY DO NOT WANT IT TO CONTINUE..THAN HOW DO YOU RATIONALIZE FOOTING THE BILL..YOU THINK THESE TORTURERS, KIDNAPPERS, THUGS, NAVAL PERSONNEL AND ON AND ON AND ON...JUST DO THIS FOR....THE FUN OF IT...FOR "FREE"? NO...IT MAY BE FUN FOR THESE FASCIST SCUM...BUT THEY ARE GETTING PAID A SALLERY...AND YOU ARE FOOTING THE BILL.
I AM SO SICK OF HEARING/LISTENING TO PEOPLE CRY ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON AND NOT REALLY.....REALLY...DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT...SURE..GO TO A SIT IN IN FRONT OF A RECRUITERS OFFICE..ETC..ETC..ETC...AND THEN...PAY HIS SALLERY..DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
WAKE UP PEOPLE..THE ONLY WAY TO END THESE INSANE REALITIES IS TO STOP PAYING THE PRICE..STOP ENABLEING THESE PLANS WITH YOUR FINANCIAL SUPPORT...YOU PAY..THEY PLAY..SIMPLE AS THAT..
TAX STRIKE..THE ONLY NON-VIOLENT FORM OF "PROTEST" THAT HAS ANY POWER WHAT-SO-EVER...IF THIS IS NOT DONE..THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO CONTINUE T DO WHATEVER THEY WANT...ND YOU ARE COMPLICIT..
THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS..YOU PAY FOR THESE CIMES..YOU ARE COMPLICIT..PERIOD!
LIVE FREE OR DIE..
Since Congress abolished "enemy combatants'" rights to habeas corpus in October 2006, there are no limitations on who can be "detained" on these floating gulags, or for how long. By abolishing habeas corpus the US government has no burden to prove anything about anybody who they label an "enemy combatant".
American citizens can be labelled "enemy combatants" by the regime just as easily as anyone else.
"That's what the second amendment is for". Ever hear of Presidential Direcitve #51?
Google Fema prisons and read that directive. Nasty.
Ghawar, our navy ships ARE involved in humanitarian interventions, such as during the tsunami a few years back, and I think we offered to send naval help to burma. We do more of this kind of thing for the world then all other countries put together, so while your point is totally valid, I think that what you suggest is already happening, at least for limited periods of time.
jlocke: I was under the impression it was not US citizens being put on these prison boats. If the government turns on us? That's what the second amendment is for.
Ghawar June 2nd, 2008 1:29 pm: " If I were stranded on a rooftop in New Orleans I would be ecstatic to see a boat like this steam into the harbor"
Perhaps you have seen the music video with U2 and GreenDay "The Saints Are Coming"?
"all men are created equal…unless we kidnap them and put them in chains"
-origin unknown. Perhaps from an unpublished "executive order" (that's what Americans call their secret laws, identified only by a number, passed by the US President) modifying one of America's founding political documents. According to US sources, Bush has radically expanded the practice.
I suggest that this article could better be served if it included some context on America's history of putting Africans and others on prison ships. Although the new captives are not bound for labour camps, there are clearly some who are not bothered by being linked to the slave ship tradition.
For those of you interested in what Americans formerly professed to believe, look up "Thomas Jefferson". Jefferson built on the European notion that humans have natural or God given rights that were present before the establishment of any government and which could not be legitimately taken away by kings or tyrants.
Those of us still living in democracies that have as their underpinning, the kind of rights that Jefferson was talking about find it troubling that Americans spend most of their tax money on a military that spits on our shared tradition so famously exemplified by the "declaration of independence"- the original version, not the new one. We count heavily on the simple things like the right not to be arbitrarily arrested and put in a black hole, the right to face your accuser, the right to see the evidence against you, the right not to be tortured. This is why it is disappointing for those of us who truly believe in democracy to see it's self proclaimed poster boy, the US so cavalierly scrapping "habeas corpus", the document that is a foundation of so much we depend on as free peoples.
May I leave you with one final question? When Americans have removed the last of their constitutional protections in their attempt to become one last iota safer from the unknown, and the devil they are chasing turns on them, where are they going to turn to seek shelter?
I will engage in conversation with somebody named Jewbacca.
I would like, though, to tell others about a daydream I've had for a couple of years now. I like to think that at least one or two U.S. aircraft carriers, to start with, would be transformed into humanitarian and rescue ships. When a tsunami destroys a coastal city or a hurricane wipes out the drinking water, food and housing of a hundred thousand people, then one of these global humanitarian patrols would be to the rescue.
It's inspiring to think about how much help in the form of food, medicine, nurses, engineering and emergency construction capability could be packed aboard a converted U.S. aircraft carrier. Imagine how welcome such ships would be to the victims of disaster. If I were stranded on a rooftop in New Orleans I would be ecstatic to see a boat like this steam into the harbor. I'd eat my last pretzel right away knowing that help was near. Imagine the goodwill that would be generated for the U.S. But my daydream is not apt to be found in reality any time soon, I guess because I'm naive and don't have what it takes for, uh. whatever, shuck it, have a good laugh at me, I'm weird.
Its completely irrlevant whether or not a prison is on a ship or on dry land. This in and of itself suggests nothing.
Is there any, ANY evidence of human rights abuses on board these "prison ships"? Bringing up WWII in this context is a bit much I think...
Prison ships were used by the British during the American War of Independence, and they were about as bad as could be. The smell of irony is awfully heavy today.
Yes, the Japanese had prison ships during WWII in which American captives were held "for a few days" of extreme abuse on their way to the coal mines in Japan. They were called hell ships, and you can read all about them in several places:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Japanese+hell+ships&btn=Search&tab=Web&...
My grandfather, a US marine, who survived his voyage and who survived the coal mines too. He was 17 years old when captured on Wake island. Another captive survived an appendectomy performed in the prison by other prisoners with no medical experience as the Japs looked on.
Oh, but what have the Jap, as WWII Pacific veterans speak, hell ships from sixty odd years ago have to do with terrorist detainees on these clean and lovely American ships? Huh, you say, I'm trying to set up a straw man or play a trick here, eh?
We already know that Bush et al. have learned so much from Hitler and the Nazi techniques of propaganda in WWII, so it's good to know that our war president has been studying the Japanese too.
Let me ask why are the American ships kept secret? Why are the prisoners brutally beaten "even more brutally than at Guantanamo?" If there's nothing to hide then maybe the captain won't mind a few cameras. Let's take a look at the cages and the menu. Now, because this is really disgusting and I should not have to pay for this or have it done in my name. Disgusting! Evil!
Not a lot of escapees I presume.
"Man overboard"!
"Shit happens, full speed ahead."
Just as creepy is the name of the torture ship, the USS Bataan. The Bataan death march is an infamous military war crime inflicted on 11,000 U.S. soldiers, for which Japanese General Homma was later executed by the Americans.
Keel Haul 'em!
Just the thought of prison ships is creepy
Waterboarding must be too tedious.
Now with floating dungeons it's much easier.
If the chain wraped hostages float they must be guilty...
LOL if this story - and all the others about US torture, denying prisoners trial, kidnapping, disappearances, etc - had appeared 10 years ago, the US citizenry would have been outraged, shocked, and been up in arms screaming for the impeachment of Bill Clinton for such illegal behavior.
Today? business as usual, no biggie. We have soooooo become what we used to stand against.
Heil!
Jewbacca aks if there is any evidence that human right abuses are taking place on these ships. I like to ask Jewbacca is there any evidence that they are not? BTW conmparing these ships to the Japanese prison ships in WWII is appropriate. Sorry Jewbacca I don't support the AIPAC Joe Lieberman controlled US government like you wholeheartedly do, but that's another subject.
" Jewbacca_Returns June 2nd, 2008 1:05 pm
Its completely irrlevant whether or not a prison is on a ship or on dry land. This in and of itself suggests nothing.
Is there any, ANY evidence of human rights abuses on board these "prison ships"? Bringing up WWII in this context is a bit much I think…"
That's only your theory and it doesn't even qualify as a 'theory'. I do not disregard the accounts or testimonies of the GWoT detainees, PoWs in unofficialised (by govt) terms. So I don't see anything misplaced in PaulK and Ghawar posting on the WWII topics of 'Japanese hell ships', the 'extreme abuse' of or against U.S. troops held captive there, and even the 'Bataan death march' against 11,000 U.S. soldiers.
Furthemore, PaulK is right enough about Bush Jr "studying" Hitler, the Nazi propaganda campaign, and Japan's prison torture and abuse of detainees forced to work in coal mines.
I haven't heard or read of the GWoT detainees of Bush et al being forced to do work, but the rest of what PaulK and Ghawar stated is fitting; as is also Vinlander's reference to the older history of the British using their or some of their war ships as floating prisons.
And many people have stated for several years or longer now that Hitler actually learned from U.S. history. I don't if that's literally true, but if it isn't, then it's still and figuratively fitting to say. Taking only U.S. national history into consideration, and not because U.S. foreign "relations" history is at all insignifcant, the U.S. has been the greatest, that is, the very worst genocidal state or country in this world; this one here, on what we usually call planet Earth, in case a dummy again asks where 'here' is when it's obvious what's meant.
Anyway, while the Western govts were at war against the Nazis and the Japanese, the Bush family was busy profiteering from and "helping" to finance the Nazi regime; being evidently affectionate of Hitler and his Nazis. Grandpa Bush had his businesses doing this shut down after the U.S. govt charged him for 'trading with the enemy'. And of course GHW Bush was surely aware of this, while Bush Jr probably also is. If he isn't, then he should be, for plenty of cyber-activists have been saying this about the Bush family and for many enough years now.
Other U.S. corporations also profited from Hitler and his Nazi regime; remembering to have read that IBM and some other hi-tech U.S. businesses were, among possibly businesses in other industries, maybe some U.S. automakers and bankers. Perhaps also the Rockefellers, in addition to the Rothschilds, who I think to recall having read were British citizens.
Some people add that the U.S. brought over, and apparently very secretly, Nazi scientists for their experience and knowledge of bio. and chemical weapons development and application, or use.
Is it true, or not? I don't know, but there's a (I believe) satellite photo (or small-area, zoomed-in map, but I think it's a photo and is of buildings) of a USN base off of the coast of California, maybe off of where San Diego or LA is located, and what the photo shows is that the U.S. govt constructed the buildings so that while unnoticeable on the ground is setting of buildings of the USN and in the form of a Nazi swastika (spelling?). With the evil minds the govt has long had ruling over it, I would not doubt that some officials really did want this specific swastika symbolism that, I suppose anyway, only they knew about.
It's fitting enough to state such references, as it is also fitting to refer to the USA's very worst case of genocide, other countries not matching this scope of extreme genocide; as well as genocides committed by the USA and its criminal ally govts in other countries, African, So. American and Caribbean, Diego Garcia, if it's not a part of Africa, and perhaps other places; Hawaii being another case where it's fitting to speak of what the U.S. did to the indigenous there as genocide.
There is no reason to downplay the USA's and Europeans' genocides around planet Earth.
Others could say and have said more; being more expert than I am on these topics.
HI Mike, It looks to me that you've read some good books about "bad oil" eg trade with anyone if the US corporations can make $$$$.
Another good read about bad oil isROBERT ENGLER'S BOOK THE POLITICS OF OIL. It came out in 1961 and isn't that dated.
Oh, just out of curiosity have you or anyone else seen if in the US ARCHIVES IN D.C. have removed the BILL OF RIGHTS, DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENTS AND THE CONSTITUTION from public view? (if not...mums the word don't tell Bu$h!)
READ THE PAIL HORSE: THIS IS ALL PRACTICE FOR THE SLAVERY OF THE AMERICAN CITIZEN. SO IF YOU THINK THAT YOUR RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION THINK AGAIN. ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN PLANED STEP BY STEP FOR THE LAST 100 YEARS WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER. READ EUGENICS THE WAR AGAINST THE WEEK. THE UNIONS OF AMERICA WILL BUILD CONCENTRATION CAMP TO HOUSE AMERICANS, WHO BUILDS CCA. MARK MY WORD THE MORE RIGHTS THAT GET TAKEN AWAY WHILE YOU WATCH MOVIES AND MTV (SO ALL SEEMS THE SAME) THERE WILL BE AN AWAKENING, BUT BY THAT TIME CHECK MATE.
When I first read about this and that one of the ships implicated was the USS Bataan, my heart was broken. My father was a WWI Japanese POW for over 3 and a half years; a survivor of the Bataan Death March. With all due respect to Ghawar and his grandfather, my father was on a "Hell Ship" for more than a few days. On 17 July 1944, he was put on the ship, Nissyo Maru, arriving in Manilla on 3 August 1944 for shipment to Fukuoka #23 Branch POW Camp to work as slave labor in a coal mine. What he told me about the ship and what I have read is totally horrible! My father and the many others with him sacrificed so much for our country that it angers me so much when I think about how the Bush administration has set this country on a down hill spiral. Just wanted to set the record straight about the Japanese Hell Ships.
and just to add spice to the thing Thatcher cut a deal with Pinochet to facilitate the Falkland's war....protecting him against prosecution for human rights violations right till the end..round and round and round it goes.. sigh
Jewbacca asked:
"Is there any, ANY evidence of human rights abuses on board these "prison ships"?"
I'm sure they are well fed, sleeping in comfy beds and watching movies...
(sarcasm!)
What kind of a question is that Jewbacca?? Do you think these folks are there on a cruise??
The CIA has been using maritime prisons for decades. The Glomar Explorer, a Howard Hughes owned "mining" ship, was leased by the CIA and used to interrogate prisoners after Pinochet's coup. Most of those detained were never seen again.
P.S. Do not feed the Jewdini/bacca troll. He is either a complete imbecile or a paid agent of AIPAC.
what we need to do to start with is the realise the truth of the concept that
"the weapon of my enemy is my enemy"
yes the weapon of my enemy works..other wise why would they be using it...but
if we have no weapons of our own design..nor the will to use them according to our own values and beliefs then it is nothing other than defeat in that "the weapon of my enemy" is in fact a Trojan Horse
has democracy the will to develop methods of dealing with terrorism that properly reflect the core values and beliefs we are all so dang fired up about protecting....if not it is dead
@AlexLawyer
"If murder, torture, forced disappearance and false imprisonment are not grounds for impeachment, I cannot imagine why Ms Pelosi and her fellow spineless politicians think our Founding Fathers provided for it."
When those representatives of the voters in a republic fail to carry out their constitutionally mandated duties, it becomes time for the people to assert themselves. Perhaps the people will do so if they become angry enough. What, you ask? Define "assert themselves" you say. Well. Maybe we start by dumping a bit of tea into Boston Harbor and take it from there.
My first thought was: "How many have been thrown overboard?"
FTF is up in this country!
By its own admission, the US government is currently detaining at least 26,000 people without trial in secret prisons,
you can bet that none of them are rich or important...if they were either their relatives would have the connections to do something about raising their profile OR the government would have trumpeted their capture as a victory in the war on terror
which boils down to the never ending unfortunate assumption that the poor and those with no power of their own have no rights....and sadly of course they don't