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TechnoratiDespite the fevered interest in this year's Democratic presidential primaries, it doesn't take much to discourage millions of Americans from voting in most elections.
Rain in the forecast, polls closing at 8 p.m., long day at the office, memory lapse -- just name it, someone's used it as an excuse.
So when half of the voting-age population often stays home on Election Day, voters hardly needed the U.S. Supreme Court to give them yet one more reason to stay away from the polls.
That's just what the court did last week, ruling that Indiana's toughest-in-the-nation voter-identification law passed muster even though it requires forms of photo ID that millions of citizens might not hold.
These laws will make it less likely that poor, elderly, disabled or non-driving voters will cast a ballot, simply because they're less likely to have a driver's license or similar form of government-issued identification. That's the reality the court's 6-3 majority ignored as justices imposed what can be described only as a middle-class point of view on the Indiana law.
That is, each of the justices can reach into a pocket and produce a driver's license, so what's the big deal? Justices decided requiring such photo ID to vote was a burden that, as Justice Antonin Scalia said, "is minimal and justified."
Until every urban voter obtains driving privileges or a government-issued photo ID, the impact of this ruling will be their immediate disenfranchisement. The alternative means of voting without photo ID provided by the Indiana law won't work for most voters, so there's nothing minimal about the court's view.
As for being justified, neither Indiana officials nor those in other states considering photo-ID rules can point to anything like a widespread problem with voter fraud. That ought to be the threshold crossed before enacting any voting rules that pose so great a risk of discouraging so many voters.
So why write such rules? Democrats fighting these largely Republican-backed measures have good grounds to suspect the real aim is to depress the vote in Democrats' urban strongholds.
Even the court said it's "fair to infer that partisan considerations may have played a significant role" in passing Indiana-style voting laws. Why, then, isn't this just another illegal poll tax? Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that there was a real "risk of voter fraud" even though no voter-impersonation fraud had been proven in Indiana. Incredible.
There's at least some hope that other states won't rush into writing their own photo-ID voting laws, since they still could be undone by future court challenges. That's because the court left open the door for voting-rights groups to bring lawsuits to prove that photo-ID rules are turning away voters.
At the same time as GOP-controlled state legislatures are requiring official photo IDs for voting, Congress' Real ID Act of 2005 -- a misguided anti-terrorism measure -- will make it even harder to obtain such identification. So that's a double-whammy for voters currently without a photo ID.
The court that picked a president with Bush v. Gore continues to play a role in tilting the outcome of elections.
© Copyright 2008 Philly Online, LLC.
74 Comments so far
Show AllBrontoburger: "I'd say you opened your mouth and removed all doubt"
You see? Language is wasted on you. You are incapable of understanding English. I even tried communicating in Hick.
Calling someone a moron because you completely miss the point of every single post is sort of like accusing someone of opening their mouth after they've typed you a response. Of course, you won't understand this insult because you lack a frontal cortex. It's why we love to see you come back every so often. We all get a kick out of how clueless you are.
American citizens have a Constitutionally protected right to vote. The ID issue is fascist and totally invasive of our 4th Amendment protections as well as a violationother civil liberties.
If people still believe this obsession with ID is about protecting us from terrorists, I have some swamp land in Alaska I'd love to sell you.
We as sovereign citizens need to file a class action law suit against the Federal government, Congress and Senate, maybe individual members- who voted for The PATRIOT Act, REal ID Act and
any other totalitarian "laws" that strip free citizens of their unalienable rights. These "laws"
and others need to be repealed and rescinded immediately.
This is insane. If we really care about freedom, we will cut up our credit cards, start using public transportation, return our drivers licenses to the DMV,
stop seeing Western doctors and taking pharmaceuticals, cancel all insurance and stop buying oil and gas.
What is our freedom worth?
The only way these laws work is when we are slaves to these industries.
The real reason the government wants to know our every move is because they monetized our birth certificates as colllateral for bad debt owed by the U.S. government.
We have become commodities. The more closely they can track us - the more sure of the repayment of their bad debts.
If you are OK with that- then at least understand the impulse behind their obsession with
ID and data basing innocent citizens. We have become pallets of merchandise they want to track at all times.
If you want to be free and sovereign individuals of a sovereign nation, class action law suits and economic embargo may be our last chance.
I don't get it. We out here in California have been using photo ID's for years now at polling places. Why should Indiana be any different?
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE
YOU WILL BE ASSIMULATED
From an historical prospective, why now is voter id so important to Republicans? I bet most of you can guess why.....
Like Cicero Confused way up at the top of this stream, I remain similarly confused by the fundamentalist conservative opposition to picture IDs. I am even more befuddled when it comes from otherwise intelligent progressives. Every other country in the world has them. In fact, we have them in less overt forms (credit cards) What's the big deal? The sooner every American has a valid picture ID, the sooner this ceases to be a "political issue" and we can start to tackle real political issues like wealth confiscation, health maintenance, war profiteering, etc. The objection to all this in this age and in this world strikes me as ... odd. Way back up there 5280 predicted "chips" under our skins. Don't hold your breath you'll faint. They already know. Credit card transactions, GPS in cars and phones, RFID smart tags and quick check out cards, , ATM visits etc. The future you dread is now! So tackle it!
ruthru...from your last post I'd say you opened your mouth and removed all doubt...as they say.
What's the big deal on a voter id card? As it is, I have to register to vote anyway. BUT if they require them, they must issue a temporary ID card while you're waiting the arrival of the finished one (unless they issue the original then and there). Anything that stems voter fraud should be welcomed--unless you believe that those who are undocumented should be able to vote as well, though that is a different issue.
What's the difference? As it is, everywhere you go they want your SS#. A card is not a chip implant any more than a driver's license is. I'd rather have a NATIONAL ID than have to give away my SS#, which increases the possibility of identity theft. Use this national ID in place of the SS number.
Re the Maine governor "throwing his weight" behind voter ID- not true. The governor only gave in when the feds said that Maine driver's licences would not be accepted for ID at federal buildings and airports if the state did not take measures to provide voter ID to the feds' specs. Maine was the last holdout on this issue. Governor Baldacci and the state legislature are to be commended for their efforts.
Brontoburger: "Hey Moron…if you don't vote within a certain time period you need to re-register to vote. Obviously you haven't voted and aren't from Indiana."
Yeehaw! Dinasore! Yer bak! I thawt sher yud left us red staters for sum blu commie bortion lovin fruitnuts. You wer owr best hope for an ntelgent sort. Yer soooooo smrt. Naw we can res owrselvs nowin yer on owr side. GODS side!
Yeehaw!
As a note- Presidential Executive Order 11002: Right to force registration of all men, women and children in the united States.
(have fun kiddies...)
AngstofthePenis,
"all i want to see is that its respected and treated as such - we are not demanding too much in demanding to know that the person in the ballot is actually ALLOWED to be there in the first place."
We know what you really want to see. You want them strip searched, electrodes attached to their genitals, forced into compromising positions, photographed and waterboarded. You're a true blue amerikkkan patriot, aren't ya?
Come on, everyone! Don't scare this one away too. Ah, I always get in too late.
Great thread, apart from the hijacking from Angst.
There is something in me that just rails against ID in all its forms. It is like the material manifestation of being a slave. To the banks, to employers, to the government. It reminds me of the old joke of my youth made of fascist countries: Papers, Papers please - but any more it's not that much of a joke.
Maybe it is just what happens when nobody knows your face; when you are just a number and no longer a person. That to me seems a much larger tragedy than the outcome of any election or any potential fraud.
As for the election itself, it seems to me it hardly matters. The government has not run the show for many decades now. They are merely doing the bidding for the corporations, and that is very unlikely to change, regardless of who is elected. Since none of the candidates represents my views, I will most likely stay home anyway.
On the other hand, if one of the candidates came out with a platform advocating waterboarding all the supremes (or even just Scalia), that might win my support ;-)
Why doesn't America just adopt Oregon's excellent Vote-By-Mail system nationwide?
It would eliminate most of the problems that these endless articles about voting present ........ and do so very simply, without the never ending hassles of the various "reforms" being pushed.
the flipside to this would be to restrict voter registration unless a person can prove the fact that they recieve ANY govt. public benefits of ANY kind.
don't use foodstamps?? you can't vote!!
Like any decent high school student with the proper laser printer and a web-cam couldn't churn out a decent forgery in about five minutes.
To say nothing of the PROFESSIONAL identity thieves who can make THOUSANDS of USABLE credit cards and ATM cards that loot THOUSANDS of personal bank accounts every year.
Doing up a reasonable forgery that has to pass a hurried VISUAL inspection by a harried and tired polling staffer who will be looking at HUNDREDS of ID cards will be child's play. With a dozen in your pocket, and REAL addresses and names of actual people on them, an operative of EITHER political party could vote at multiple locations, and the election officials would never even know that you are not who you say you are.
Thank you all for well thought out responses. There are many reasons to be against voter ID. If I could add one more. During the Rwandan Genocide, roadblocks were constructed. When you approached a checkpoint, the Hutu military would ask for an ID. If you had a Hutu ID, you could go free. If you had a Tutsi ID, then you were dragged off to be killed. Could ID cards be used here in the United States for similar purposes? Who can foresee all the harmful unintended consequences of a voter ID law? Since there is little to no evidence of widespread abuse, it would be logically to avoid pursuing a course that contains so many possible negative outcomes. But logic does not seem to be a trait associated with conservatism.
ANGSTOFTHEPEOPLE
"i've been reading your posts on different threads here and as far as i can see, you have nothing in common with the 'commondreamers'. after all, that is the purpose of this website…………for like-minded people to discuss their theories and thoughts. and to help each other in overcoming grievances. you are not contributing to this genre, so why don't you find a site that agrees with YOUR thoughts, instead of distrupting ours."
coco,
Thank you for putting it so well. I've been thinking the same about angst and others who seem to get their jollies by trolling in places that they have no affinity with. We've seen others here and by and large, treat them pretty well considering they just skulk around to create discontent.
Thanks also for reminding us of what this place is about: Common Dreams. Not Common "Reality" or Common Wisdom, but Common Dreams - a place to allow us to think about what is possible if we would just step through the door...which is open. It takes courage, and most here seem to have it. Unfortunately, some don't.
Frankly if you hold the right to vote in any esteem...you will will get a PHOTO ID.
But then of course in Philadelphia our pollsters leave a "New American Bible" on the sign in table....to affirm your identity...just in case.
AngstOfThePeople = CIA troll
I'm in favor of requiring a person show a valid photo ID and voter registration card to vote, to prevent vote fraud. Every state I've lived in issued photo ID's for non drivers. I have never driven a car and have always had a state issued photo ID card. It's an essential item to cash a check, etc. That said, I am sure not in favor of microchipping people! Perhaps one day there will be practical technology to use fingerprints or some other form of ID that's very tamper proof, but we're right to resist letting the govt become "Big Brother." Before we can let them that far into our lives perhaps we need to clean out the corrupt elements in govt first, starting with corporate control of it. A small govt that did its job and didn't pander to big industries might be less likely abuse having all kinds of ID info on everyone.
cicero confused May 5th, 2008 12:41 pm
I'm with Cicero!
I can't see how the Indiana law disenfranchises people without a car, etc? You need a car for an ID? that was mentioned later. Or that it works a hardship on anyone in particular.
Has there been voter fraud, I really don't know. Is this a Republican ploy? Got me. Should non-citizens, the dead and felons, etc be prevented from voting? Of course. So I see nothing wrong with this.
Frankly I feel that if you can't take the minimal trouble to get an ID, you probably shouldn't be voting anyway.
it'S about time somebody said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ! this bickering back and forth about voter id's is ridiculous....BECAUSE IF YOU ARE NOT WORTH MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THEN YOUR VOTE DOES NOT MATTER ! THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU ! ON NOVEMBER 5TH 2008 THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION.....MOST PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO BACK TO THE SAME JOBS,HAVE THE SAME BILLS AND HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS !!! YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK !!!!!
It's not entirely useless to see how right wing wackos process information and defend their viewpoints, but for Neanderthals like angstoftherich, once we've had that look, the next step is to ignore them until they go away. And they do. Like children and pets, they like attention. Without it, they find somewhere else to get it.
At this point, the discussion has devolved into a back and forth with angst which obviously is going nowhere. And from the perspective of angst, it isn't intended to. Sometimes people show up with ignorant ideas, but they respond with thoughtfulness to discussion. Not happening in this case. Time to pull the plug.
kathyodat
KELLYBLISS
i sympathize with you and your clients. i too have to walk a very treacherous path to my local stores and i'm not disabled. but i understand the problem riding a bus with a wheelchair.
ANGSTOFTHEPEOPLE
i've been reading your posts on different threads here and as far as i can see, you have nothing in common with the 'commondreamers'. after all, that is the purpose of this website............for like-minded people to discuss their theories and thoughts. and to help each other in overcoming grievances. you are not contributing to this genre, so why don't you find a site that agrees with YOUR thoughts, instead of distrupting ours.
Lairderg May 5th, 2008 5:52 pm ..Apologies for this bit of the topic remark. My friend, forget about gathering for a redress of grievances..SCOTUS has so far refused to even address the topic..they will not even schedule a hearing to "debate" a supposed basic Constitutional right.
AngstOfThePeople May 5th, 2008 2:10 pm
"Um I was poor. Broke, even. I still maintained an ID. No ID no vote. its that simple."
Jahvol meine führer! It's that simple.
Yes, ladies and gentlemen who cannot see the light at the end of our poverty. Yes, we will get those temporary IDs. But let's just see if they don't come up with some other bullshit that we'll need to cast a vote. Meanwhile, the same people who are requiring a photo ID for the most fundamental of human rights in a democracy (???) are the ones who want that requirement eliminated for buying and owning guns (far too restrictive for our domestic violence enforcers!). Oh, by the way, who has the most trouble, at least in New Jersey, getting a photo ID? Married women, of course, especially those who left and divorced those domestic abusers. "I'm dreaming of a free democracy ..." Are you with me? At least so far, we don't have to have a photo ID to gather for a "redress of grievances." That's next, I'm sure.
In an effort to help people understand the difficulty of getting a photo ID for some people, I will tell my story (and the story of many of my clients.) I am disabled with epilepsy. I often work with disabled people. The task of GETTING to the facility to get a photo ID is so difficult when you do not drive, that it prevents many non-drivers from doing so.
In my area there are no sidewalks on the route to the photo ID location. So I must litterally take my life in my hands to walk there. Public transportation is a two hour trip each way, making this task almost a full day's job to do. And think of other disabilities ... have you ever ridden on a bus with a wheelchair?
It is indeed very difficult for non-drivers or disabled people to get photo IDs. I have been trying for years, and I have not made the full trip yet.
Angst,
No, "Simply put", you have not answered any of the real fraud at the pols which I asked you about.
There is proven fraud that you ignore Because it is done by the Power elite and there is the imagined fraud done by some theoretical idea of people voting who are not registered and that has not yet been proven.
You don't come up with any evidence of voter ID fraud yet you want to make it harder for some folks who can't get a birth certificate for whatever reason left out, that is real fraud when the rich repubs can rob the voters already and that has been proven.
What you have proved is that you are an old fashioned red baiter that does not like this site.
You have avoided any real fraud by republican officials under the pretext for a problem that does not exist.
Now that is real angst.
So who are the people who don't have state-issued photo IDs? I'd like to see some examples so I could better understand who this will affect. I am a 44 year old white male in liberal New England town. My Cal. driver's license is expired and I cannot afford to pay all my parking tickets and old excise taxes to get a Mass. driver's license yet. A Mass. state-id would cost me $25. My passport is long expired. I can pretty easily get the Mass ID but I haven't bothered. And I can't get a passport without the ID etc. Spending the $25 would get me the state ID and would the make me eligible to vote if my state had this new requirement. But if I had been arrested for selling drugs at some point, or was distrustful of officials for some reason, I would probably skip the vote. Or maybe it's already going to cost a day off from work to vote and it would take a day or part of a day to go get in line at the DMV, so if I were not of the somewhat privileged class, again, I wouldn't bother. Maybe I'm hiding out from child-care payments and don't want to stick my head above water. But does this dead-beat dad status mean I should be allowed to vote?
We have been experiencing a massive redistribution of national wealth - toward the top 1% of Americans. And a massive loss of income to the middle class. This country has become a welfare state for the rich who are nowhere near paying even their fair share of taxes and who have obscene levels of income compared to hourly workers. The US Gini index is going off the chart, and any effort to reverse that unhealthy direction is communism? I suggest people start ignoring Angstwhatever who is siding with the elite, ripping off the American people and their labor.
I noticed Angst ignored all the disenfranchisement occurring before whoever is left even make it to the polls.
kathyodat
simply put then Jim - do you or do you NOT think there is fraud in the election process? if you think there is, then logic, if you have any, would suggest stringent controls are needed - including IDs at the polls - nobody should be allowed NEAR the booth without one.
how else do you suppose we ought to do this - have people show up and say they are so and so and just let them pass? Sorry. Voter ID is going to become a reality - stop using the poor to afvance your agenda. its disgusting.
With the billions and billions of dollars this insane administration keeps throwing at the war....you'd think they could muster up a little $ to have a "roving id wagon" that travels to the poorer neighborhoods and get them the proper identification so they can help get these monkeys off the hill.
I am fit and middle class and the thought of getting out to a DMV office and waiting in line for hours on a saturday is so exhausting....I'd just stay home too. A very carefully planned block to help push this election in the same direction as the last 2 !
Angstofthe Who?,
You say "if you really believe the election was stolen in 04 ( I dont by the way) then you should be all for demanding a tighter and more secure process. you say on one hand there was no fraud, then you say there was…..which is it?"
The voting machine companies that can fix the counts don't need photo voter ID's.
Voter suppression tactics and lists don't require Photo ID's of the drafters and beneficiaries of these laws.
How many convictions of people voting without registering or with Phony ID's?
If this is a problem than there should be documented proof of a wide spread problem.
There have been thousands of cases of folks robbed of the right to vote because they were on a phony list of felons and these republican controlled lists rob the right to vote to people with real ID's already.
Does your definition of wealth redistribution include the the loss of the money of the majority citizens sucked up by the MIC?
Does that include the loss of the value of the dollar from the growing, un-payable national Debt for the benefit of the super wealthy robbing the people in the War economy?
Just from the way you generalize I would take any red baiting from the likes of you a badge of honor.
If any mind set causes angst of the people it is yours.
Having moved from Indiana to Oregon, I must say that voting has never been easier. No ID necessary, no waiting in line, no touch screen machines. We get sent our ballot in the mail, fill in the bubbles, and then we return it either by mail or a drop box when it is convenient. We can get together, vote with friends, discuss the candidates and issues and help each other understand some of the strangely worded propositions. I think we do have voter fraud with registrations, but I haven't heard of people messing with the mail.
I am sorry to hear so many Hoosiers will be disenfranchised and I wish there wasn't such a pattern in the oppression of poor, elderly and/or especially non-white voters. I wish Americans would be outraged by this. I wish cooperations were not people too. At this point a vote seems like a wish thrown with a penny in to a bottomless well. Gotta keep wishing though, just in case there is a bottom and every little bit counts...
I was wrong about the republicans holding their noses and accepting McCain. Read somewhere the idea of giving the presidency to Obama, but having a huge nationwide push to get their people in the senate so they can block any liberal nominations to the supreme court.
Now choo, there's really no reason for personal attacks. your rationale behind not having ID is rather weak - so what you're saying is that poor people in this country are so poor they cannot afford a 15 dollar piece of plastic that will not only enable them to vote, but to board planes, trains in some places and obtain a rental agreement?
sorry friend, this argument does not hold water and in fact makes you guilty of using the poor for your own political agenda. if you take the vote as seriously as you say you do, you will realize this is a birthright that must be protected.
The Indiana decision reminds me of the grandfather clauses enacted by post-confederate states in early Reconstruction. The obstacles to obtaining a picture ID are largely determined by your birth in several ways. The most obvious is economic - the greater the wealth of your parents the more likely the relative cost to obtain an ID will be small. This is especially significant since the voting age is 18 - if your parents are too poor to feed and house you at age 17, as an 18 year old you will almost certainly have a greater burden obtaining an ID than were you of wealthier birth. The franchise is (or should be) a privilege of citizenship not a prize of wealth.
And to the IdiotOfAngst in our ranks, if you cannot see this reality, then your eyeball-rolling has left you staring at the dark void within your cranium.
dlp - what is so damned hard about getting an ID? we insist on one before we board planes. we insist on one to cash a check. we insist on one (ok well I do) before we allow people to rent or own property....this is a non issue.
"there are elderly blacks in the South who have voted for decades but may now lose their right to vote because they don't drive and have no birth certificates
- then devise a remedy, this is no reason to not have IDs at the polls."
Anyone interested in actual facts, please know that there is not one example of a complaint of voter-impersonation in recent elections, according to the Secretaries of State interviewed in the Freedom Files video. There are throusands (if not more) of actual people who will lose their right to vote because of these laws.
Also, remember these ID laws do not apply to the voter registration process; these laws apply to registered voters who have voted for decades. If you lack particular document X, it doesn't matter how many decades you've voted at precinct Y, you can't vote when you show up to the polls if you can't produce the magic document.
You can bet that now the state legislatures around the country will be rushing to pass similar laws to block access to the polls for the poor elderly, between now and November. We have a long history of erecting obstacles to voting, particulary by the poor. That tradition was given a brand new lease on life with the recent Supreme Court case.
the second you speak of (and I mean the general you of the board commentators) wealth redistribution then yes, you are a neocommunist.
I agree. address voter supression and fraud on both sides. I dont see how a cheap piece of plastic verifying you are who you say you are is necessarily a real challenge to potential voters. if anything, this would enable one means of combatting voter fraud - add in the element of a paper trail/reciept issued to all who cast a ballot (providingf they have id) and you have yet another built in layer of protection.
Oh, so now we're neocommunists? What's a neocommunist? People, I think we're wasting our time talking to this angst person.
I'm not any kind of communist. I think we should be a country of small businesses and take our country back from the big corporations that have run off with it, including our hard earned money. I want our wages invested in our country, not their wallets. Does that make me a communist?
kathyodat
AngstOfThePeople, I agree, we need a tighter process. But it includes not hassling voters with too few voting machines and holding up the lines for hours with "challenges", refusing to count provisional ballots, touch screen machines with secret tabulating methods (proprietary information) that consistently err on the side of Republicans, jamming phone lines in Democratic precincts so voter registration can't be confirmed, threatening letters to Democrats that unpaid parking tickets will get them arrested at the polls, and many more documented tricks. When a court case proved voter fraud in Ohio, the counties were ordered to preserve the ballots for a recount so they destroyed the ballots. Their excuses? They got rained on, we ran out of storage space, we forgot we were told to save them, and on and on. The result? Nothing. The ballots are gone, no more case. This is democracy? Considerable effort has been spent on trying to find voter fraud, turning up about 12 cases nationwide. Voter suppression is extensive and documented in the millions. So which should we be going after?
kathyodat
galen, if youre so convinced that the vote has been stolen, why are you even arguing over IDs? better yet, why arent you doing something about it other than whining among a bunch of aging hippies on a neocommunist website?
and I was among the poor kathy. I still dont see why they cannot get a form of valid ID.
Ansgt_ So were you overjoyed when the SUPREME COURT DECIDED that Bush was the winner in 2000?
You must have been beside yourself with exultation over the PROVEN acts of vote tampering by Diebold in Ohio in 2004.
A VOTE IN THE US HAS NO(!) MEANING!
MILLIONS OF LEGITIMATE, ELIGIBLE VOTERS WERE DISENFRANCHISED IN FLORIDA IN 2000! MILLIONS MORE HAD THE SAME THING HAPPEN IN 2004!
The US is a fascist dictatorship, run by a shadowy cabal of corporations, intelligence services and the obscenely wealthy.
If you deny this you are either a fool or a tool.
AngstOfThePeople, bullshit. I never said the poor cannot be criticized. But I do say we have an economic system that benefits from a poor class and maintains a policy to sustain it. 13 million children live in families below the poverty line ($20,000 for a family of four), and includes half of all children living in Louisiana.
Worst of all, The number of children living in deep poverty, defined as less than 1/2 half the poverty line, has skyrocketed especially with Bush administration policies. Eradicating poverty takes more than true grit. It means adequate nutrition, education, social support, such as not not restricting health access for children. Ignoring the needs of the poor does not resolve poverty. There will always be exceptional individuals who can fight their way out. If you had been born in that situation you might have been one of them, although with your narrow minded viewpoint, I suspect that is unlikely. You are quick to judge another without having walked in their shoes. I have lived among the poor, I know the pressures they face.
kathyodat
kathy
if you really beleive the election was stolen in 04 ( I dont by the way) then you should be all for demanding a tighter and more secure process. you say on one hand there was no fraud, then you say there was.....which is it?
there are elderly blacks in the South who have voted for decades but may now lose their right to vote because they don't drive and have no birth certificates
- then devise a remedy, this is no reason to not have IDs at the polls.
For those who think it's no big deal to get photo ID for purposes of exercising your right to vote, please see this Robert Greenwald video: http://aclu.tv/ about the right to vote. As one small example: there are elderly blacks in the South who have voted for decades but may now lose their right to vote because they don't drive and have no birth certificates: they were born at a time when certain Southern governments didn't issue birth certificates for black people. This is only one small example. The video gives explicit details--and introduces you to a number of poor usually elderly folks--who don't drive and don't have the easy ability to get the documentation they'd need to be able to vote under these laws. It's a sad modern example of the poll tax for those who don't drive and don't have the money necessary or the transporation necessary to get the documents now required.
AngstOfThePeople, even the Supreme Court justices agreed there was no evidence of voter fraud. But, they wanted to err on the side of caution, being that they could not see any evidence of "undue" harm in their ruling. Even opponents of the ID law agreed that their case was poorly presented. Thank goodness for Stevens writing the opinion, leaving the door open.
The much more serious issue is voter suppression, which as been well documented, including 3.6 uncounted ballots in the 2004 election. Just how many of those do you think were Republican?
kathyodat
no, theres a mindset among the poor and liberals such as yourself that the poor cannot be criticized - the closest thing you people have to a cannonization process. you can get out of poverty - you have to WANT to get out of poverty.
at any rate, this is about ID and voting. poor people can get an ID. end of story.
AngstOfThePeople there's a huge difference between growing up in poverty and being broke. It's called temporary vs permanent. Comes with two different mindsets instilled into a child who has no control over what they're being taught about how far they can go in life, with teachers and other adults reinforcing the lesson.
The ignorance of people prejudiced against the poor is tiresome and destructive to the health of our society. We're beginning to look more and more like Dickens' England.
kathyodat
BeFor Kids
I do not apologize as I saw it with my own 2 eyes. that being said, what is so damned hard about having an ID? Nothing.
The right to vote is about the most sacred of all rights - all i want to see is that its respected and treated as such - we are not demanding too much in demanding to know that the person in the ballot is actually ALLOWED to be there in the first place.
cicero, it costs $34 for a certified Indiana birth certificate, assuming a voter even has one. Not all do. Amounts to a severe poll tax for the poor. Not including the difficulty of traveling to the county seat if you don't have a car and public transportation is limited. But hey, they can walk, dragging their kids with them. Of course, if they have some scudsy low paying job, they may lose it for taking time off for trying to meet the requirements to vote, since records offices are only open during business hours. The Supremes of course, don't have to worry about those kinds of problems. If you haven't lived in poverty, cicero, don't make assumptions about how easy they have it.
AngstOfThePeople, not all ghetto neighborhood residents are drug dealers and some are truly poor. I didn't see Nikes on the New Orleans residents who couldn't afford to escape the flood. It's really ignorant to make generalizations based on stereotypes. You must be a Ronald Reaganite, swallowing the "Welfare Queen" fantasy. I was on welfare at one point, and the people I saw in the waiting room were nothing like that. In fact, it felt pathetic. The hopelessness and despair was tangible. It was a lousy system but in some ways now it's even worse, since the number of kids in deep poverty has increased after Bill Clinton's "welfare reform". The system needed a solution, but not that one. It was a typical DLC ploy, of which Hillary has many more up her sleeve.
kathyodat
Thanks Madhoosier, that was useful.
The comments I just read display a level of ignorance that is astounding. One person said "should a copy of a voter registration card invalid" and "that there is no experiation date on voting". Hey Moron...if you don't vote within a certain time period you need to re-register to vote. Obviously you haven't voted and aren't from Indiana.
Where in Indiana is there decent public transportation? The issue with a photo ID is irrelavent as Indian has had this law in effect for 7 elections and of which is popular among the states population. Also let's look at what laws on the books require photo id: Drivers liscense, to purchase beer, get credit cards, if you're really poor and on Medicaid or welfare you need a state photo id, if your getting a job a state id is the min. required. I haven't even touched the SS# that is required for everything under the sun. Yet this is an issue?? Hardly.
When voting only 1 vote should count...that is determined through some form of identification of registered voters. By making it simply a photo id it eliminatd potential error and abuse. The only reason to oppose the state of Indiana's law (isn't the Dems in majority there anyway) is because abuse and errors were occuring but it was benefitting the Dems for some reason.
If the photo ID set's you off why do we even need to register to vote in the first place???
Willy -
Um I was poor. Broke, even. I still maintained an ID. No ID no vote. its that simple.
AngstOfThePeople May 5th, 2008 1:54 pm ..If you had the SLIGHTEST idea about the reality of poverty, you would never make the statement you just made. In the true spirit of compassion, may YOU never be poor!
sooooo......get an ID and you get to vote. all the ID says is that you are who you claim to be. disenfrancised? my ass. we have the richest looking poor people in the united states - Ive been everywhere from the ghetto section 8neigborhoods to the backwoods of FL - Air Jordans, Nike sneakers, nice cars - and the poor cannot afford to make the effort to get an ID?
Please.
Between this and the already-in-the-pipe legislation to FORCE all foreign nationals to provide DNA samples as they leave the country on aircraft, what more proof do you need to realize that the US is now a fascist dictatorship?
cicero,
The Indiana Voter ID law made presenting a valid voter registration card, issued by the county clerk, unacceptable to use as an ID to vote. Secondly, why does an ID have to have an expiration date to be valid? Voting rights don't expire. To obtain an ID you must present an original Birth Certificate with the seal or stamp of the issuer, not a copy of a birth certificate that is easily obtainable. Finally since you can now order license Plates online or through the mail Indiana has closed most of the neighborhood license branches, I'd have to drive over 40 miles, round trip, to get an ID.
The Indiana law is designed to exclude inner city voters that have access to public transportation and don't own automobiles, if there was a truth in labeling law on legislation the law would have been named the Don't Let Ni&&ers Vote Act.
"Unfortunately the Democratic Party isn't much better; those who oppose the abuses of the Bush administration are a small minority in the party."
Tell me about it.
In Maine, the Democratic governor threw his weight behind the Real ID act (Maine was one of the few states to originally reject it) and the legislature (led by Democrats) voted to pass it.
I really don't want McCain to win, but damn, those Democrats are making it harder and harder to vote for them. I switched my position from voting for Cynthia McKinney to Obama, but those Dems make me feel like a fool every day. Nothing new.
"Just wait. It won't be long until we all get our scannable microchip implants with GPS tracking."
Sorry, dmia, we've already got it for the most part. Its called a cell phone. And its likely every member of your family has one.
Its a done deal and WE got to pay for it! You have to give 'em credit, that was one brilliant strategy between telcom and the feds! Along with your email, they know everything--all the time.
Many people think that to advance to the national level in the Republican Party you have to sell your soul to the special interests but at the local level republicans have the best interest of the community at heart, but the Indiana Voter ID law is an excellent example that even at the local level republicans have no respect for the fundamental principles of democracy and the rule of law.
During Watergate many republicans had the integrity to speak out against the abuses of Nixon but today I can't think of a single example of a republican at the national level that has condemned the illegal acts of the Bush administration, torture, wars of aggression, illegal wire taps, politicizing the Department of Justice, shooting Harry Whittington in the face with a shotgun are all completely fine and dandy with today's utterly corrupt republican party.
Unfortunately the Democratic Party isn't much better; those who oppose the abuses of the Bush administration are a small minority in the party.
Notice that this wasn't done when the Republicans had a majority...
At the risk of appearing to be contrarian, I honestly don't understand why people, even poor people, would have serious problems in obtaining the required identification. I guess I suffer from having "a middle-class point of view" like the justices, but this post is in a way an invitation to anybody who knows better to educate me.
Of course I know that this is a Republican ploy to further suppress the vote among the poor. But even with that awareness, I cannot (honestly) find a convincing argument of why obtaining the required documentation constitutes an undue burden on people. Again, please somebody educate me.
Only by running for the small offices and building our way UP the ladder of power, slowly. But we have to DO IT, not just talk about it!
Is there anybody out there that still believes we can diminish the power of corporate elites through corporate-elite funded elections?
Quote: "the court left open the door for voting-rights groups to bring lawsuits to prove that photo-ID rules are turning away voters."
Of course, this is after John McCain is elected, right?
Just wait. It won't be long until we all get our scannable microchip implants with GPS tracking. At first it will be required by law that all newborns receive these at birth before being issued a birth certificate. Then it will take off from there.
So it took a little longer than expected to reach "1984". But we finally got there.
Disgusting.