Saudis Pour Oil Money into Terror
The news that Saudi Arabia is the nation providing the greatest number of foreign fighters in Iraq underscores the lies and duplicity at the foundation of President George W. Bush’s policies in the Middle East.
When the undersecretary of the Treasury in charge of tracking terror financing points to Saudi Arabia as a continuing conduit for millions of dollars to al-Qaeda, and the president ignores the assessment and then certifies that “Saudi Arabia is cooperating with efforts to combat international terrorism,” you know the fix is in.
Bush and the State Department are silent when a Saudi court orders a woman who was gang raped to a punishment of 200 lashes and six months in jail, as the civilized world howls with outrage over the latest abomination from a judicial system otherwise known for torture and public beheadings.
The House of Saud is never called the ruthless regime it is. It’s always referred to as the more benevolent-sounding “kingdom.” Bush has never used the terrorism label when describing the Saudis, despite indisputable evidence that they are providing people and money to spread terror and export the religious fanaticism rooted in the Saudi brand of Islam, ultra-conservative Wahhabism.
Protecting international oil interests and his family’s wealth explains why Bush continues to turn a blind eye to everything the Saudis do. A Thanksgiving Day story in The New York Times with the headline “Foreign Fighters in Iraq Are Tied to Allies of U.S.” got scant attention from the media, caught up in food and football.
A raid on a desert camp in Sinjar, near the Syrian border, provides detailed information about the backgrounds and hometowns of more than 700 foreign fighters brought into Iraq since August 2006. The raid — ironically on Sept. 11 — provided U.S. military intelligence with remarkable documentation about the suicide bombers and insurgents killing Iraqi civilians and U.S. troops.
The Times reported information discovered in the desert tent camp showed “Saudis accounted for the largest number of fighters listed on the records by far — 305, or 41 percent — American intelligence officers found as they combed through documents and computers in the weeks after the raid. The data show that despite increased efforts by Saudi Arabia to clamp down on would-be terrorists since Sept. 11, 2001, when 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi, some Saudi fighters are still getting through.”
The Libyans, another Bush “ally,” followed the Saudis, providing 137 foreign soldiers, or 18 percent of the total. These fighters are all Sunni and part of the sectarian struggle for Iraq.
While the Saudi government denies an official role, it is simply no coincidence that Saudi citizens end up in Iraq. Senior American military officials told the Times they also “believed that Saudi citizens provided the majority of financing for al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia. ‘They don’t want to see the Shias come to dominate Iraq,’ one American official said.”
In September, Stuart Levey, the undersecretary of the Treasury, told ABC News no one identified by the United States and United Nations as a terror financier has been prosecuted by the Saudis.
“If I could somehow snap my fingers and cut off funding from one country, it would be Saudi Arabia,” Levey said in an interview. “When the evidence is clear that these individuals have funded terrorist organizations and knowingly done so, then that should be prosecuted and treated as real terrorism, because it is,” Levey concluded.
Just a month after Levey argued the Saudis do nothing to prosecute the bankrollers of terrorist groups, Bush signed a document certifying the Saudis are an ally in his war on terror.
The president is required by U.S. law to send such a memorandum to the secretary of State to free up American aid packages and assure the recipient nations don’t support terror. That lie about the Saudis aside, why the hell would we send any kind of money to Riyadh? The money we funnel them for $100-a-barrel oil isn’t enough?
Bush’s admiration for the Saudis runs deep, especially for their criminal justice system. Based on a code Attila the Hun would find excessive, the Saudis routinely flog and torture people, and this year so far 124 have been beheaded.
When Bush, a prolific death penalty practitioner himself, holds hands with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, you can hear him saying, “Prince, you sure know how to keep ‘em in line. If the damn liberals didn’t stop me, I’d be doing those public executions, too. It sure sends a message. And we both know torture does work.”
Bush’s personal silence over the fate of a gang-rape victim shows how beholden he is to his Saudi pals who support a vile legal system rooted in whim, cruelty and human degradation.
Seven men raped a 19-year-old Saudi woman in 2006. The men got sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison. But the Saudi court ruled the woman had to be punished too because their barbaric interruption of Islamic law was that she committed the horrible crime of being in the car of an unrelated man before she was attacked.
She was sentenced to receive 90 lashes, but she fought the punishment and appealed. How dare she, the mullahs muttered. We’ll show her. The Saudi Supreme Judicial Council increased the sentence to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The rapists’ sentences were doubled. The women and her attacker are members of Saudi Arabia’s Shia minority.
The Bush administration is treating the case as an internal Saudi matter and refuses to condemn the woman’s punishment. You might think that as a practical matter, we don’t want to offend the Saudis, who at the last minute agreed to show up at the U.S.-sponsored Middle East peace conference starting this week in Annapolis, Md.
The real reason is money. Craig Unger reported in his insightful book “House of Bush, House of Saud” how he traced “more than $1.4 billion in contracts and investments from the House of Saud in companies in which the Bushes and their friends have had key roles.”
One of the Saudis’ greatest friends in Washington has been Bush’s departing U.S. Homeland Security Adviser Frances Fragos Townsend. She delivered a speech last month at Effat College in Jeddah gushing with praise for the Saudis.
Townsend said, “The most serious and dangerous terrorist threat comes from al-Qaeda,” of course not mentioning the Saudi funding sources for that threat. Being sloppy with her al-Qaeda script may have hurried Townsend’s departure.
In July, she slipped and admitted, “I don’t know if al-Qaeda was in Iraq before the war.” But alas, Townsend’s real forte is sycophancy, not thinking. Her handwritten resignation letter to Bush belongs in the suck-up hall of fame.
After the pro forma stuff about how her years of White House Service “have been both a blessing and a privilege,” Fran jumped the shark, using the words playwright Maxwell Anderson wrote to describe George Washington.
Anderson wrote, “There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on higher ground in their lifetime.” Townsend shamelessly added, “Mr. President, you are such a man.”
Someone with a sense of humor in the White House must have leaked the letter that left me howling. Then I laughed more reading Townsend’s speech to the Saudis and seeing she used the identical quote describing Bush, adding that it also “applies to King Abdullah.”
But somehow it seems fitting the two despots and business partners are lumped together. Although it’s unfortunate that Maxwell Anderson and George Washington are sullied in the process.
Bill Gallagher, a Peabody Award winner, is a former Niagara Falls city councilman who now covers Detroit for Fox2 News.
©2007 The Niagara Falls Reporter
The so-called ‘terrorists’ of 9/11 were supposedly Saudi in origin. Not Afghani. Not Iraqi. Not Iranian.
The Bush family has decades long deep personal ties to the ruling Al-Saud family. And the Bin Laden family.
Saudi Arabia is one of the US’s largest buyers of advanced military hardware. Just behind Israel.
Saudi Arabia practices torture and capital punishment. As does the US under Bushco.
Saudi Arabia is under the control of a violent fundamentalist religious minority. So is America.
Why single out the Saudi clan? Chevron alone pours billions into propping up the junta in Burma. All of the state implemented terror in the world is corporate supported and sponsored. US based multinationals pour billions into state terror every day to keep poor people from receiving the benefits of their countries resources. All wars are back by the multinationals bid to control resources.
Perhaps us ordinary Americans should step up to accept our rightful blame for funding Saudi Arabia with our oil money for decades. Yes, Bush & Company are probably the worst for cozying up to the really radical Muslims in the “Kingdom”, but our errors with these people predate even Bush. Muscle car, anyone?
Perhaps American women might want to wake up and vote for some smarter people in American government, where they already have the right to do so, unlike their Saudi sisters who may not vote for decades yet to come. Perhaps American preachers might want to remind their flocks that our continuing to send billions to Islam is not only stupid from the standpoint of terrorism, but, for Christians, also a sin worthy of being called what it is, an abomination.
As for men in the world who think it’s okay (or none of our business to be “interfering in”)for male judges anywhere on earth to sentence some other guy’s wife to be lashed to a pulp and her attorney disbarred, please turn off the darn ballgames and have a conniption fit over something worth protesting. Start by considering carefully who you vote for here.
Is it news? It has been known for years about the collusion of the US, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Israel in the WAR OF TERRORISM. US provides weapons, logistics and support/cover in the UN Security Council, Saudi provides terrorists and money, and Pakistan provides safe haven for the terrorists. Israel is being used to get public support in the US and in the Eoropean countries. Israel also helps in continuing the conflict in the Middle East, so that the US and the Europe can plunder the wealth of the Middle East. What is Al-Qaeda? It is the brain-child of the US and the Saudi Arabia. Al-Qaeda has been used as the TRUMP CARD to invade Iraq, Somalia, and other countries and plunder their wealth. Whenever the US government needs public support Al-Qaeda comes out with a MESSAGE, in order to arouse the passions in the US and the West. Now the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan want to bring back Taliban to rule Afghanistan, and Baathists to rule Iraq. That is why the US is supplying weapons to the Sunnis in Iraq and Saudi is sending its own terrorists to Iraq to take control of Iraq.
It is sickening to see these terrorist countries trying to benefit from BLOOD MONEY. It is disheartening to see this TERRORIST COUNTRY (i.e. the US) being allowed to unleash its terrorist activities all over the world.
JUST ASKING: Will some one please tell me why there has never been, to my knowledge, any interviews with any of the Saudi 911 hijackers or their families? After all,according to some, there are several still living!
“After all,according to some, there are several still living!”
If they are still living, then they weren’t hijackers.
There were some instances of mistaken ID, that’s all.
Seems like the Saudis’ have the capacity to and are draining our economy on both ends..
…they are propping up the opposition, so that we keep printing up money to fight the war and driving the dollar downward. which, by the way, is one of the most ominous threats to American life….
…While at the same time holding the supply of oil that our war machine runs on. does it not seem like they are in a powerful leverage position.
Shanti…If you are serious, I can recommend many resources. If you are being facetious…TOUCHE!
Daniel David said: “to send billions to Islam is not only stupid from the standpoint of terrorism, but, for Christians, also a sin worthy of being called what it is, an abomination.”
First of all Saudi Arabia is not Islam. Saudi Arabia is a country. Islam is a religion and the vast majority of Muslims by far do not adhere to the Salaffi/Wahhabi idealogy that many Saudis practice particularily the followers of the Shi’a and Sufi sects of Islam who the Salaffi/Wahabis folk consider infidels/non-believers. Mainstream Sunnis also reject Salaffi/Wahabism.
Second mainstream Sunni and Shia Muslims recognize that the Jewish people and the Christian people are “people of the book” and therefore to be protected and respected as followers of the same group of prophets Muslims believe in(Abraham, Issac, Jesus etc).
Let’s be clear that Islam, like Christianity and Judaism is not a monolith. Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam. Islam does not have a hierarchy or a figurehead such as a pope as in Catholicism.
Finally, the article is correct that some Saudi dollars do fund extremism. The Al Qaeda members making a mess of Afghanistan largely adhere from Saudi Arabia. Both Afghan Sunnni and Shi’a Muslims are angry that their are Saudi fighters messing with their country. They want them out.
Lets also note though that Saudi Arabia has its share of reformers and those who criticize extremism. The people of Saudi Arabia are not a monolith either and many are against terrorism.
The Saudis are buying insurance. The see the short term and long term winners and will invest accordingly. They plan to be players in the Globalization Games of 2025.
Hoa binh
How reliable is Bill Gallagher? Remember, he works for FOX. Get another more reliable source.
“Remember, he works for FOX.”
By only attacking the arguer and his associations you leave his arguement intact. That’s a basic mistake.
“Get another more reliable source.”
Get a better argument.
“Kucinich has sponsored two resolutions in Congress to impeach Vice President Dick Cheney: H. Res. 333 and H. Res. 799. He said he’s drafting an extended version relating to President Bush. It’s an issue that has divided Democrats.” -Kate Duffy
“Just a month after Levey argued the Saudis do nothing to prosecute the bankrollers of terrorist groups, Bush signed a document certifying the Saudis are an ally in his war on terror.”
How could impeachment possibly divide Democrats? Do some of them actually approve of the Saudis funding terrorists while the Bush administration calls them our friends and allies?
“to send billions to Islam is not only stupid from the standpoint of terrorism, but, for Christians, also a sin worthy of being called what it is, an abomination.”
Ow really Daniel. who exactly is robbing who in this transaction? We buy their oil (a real, tangilbe and precious product) with a fiat currency that is not worth more than the ink and the paper it is printed on - which we print at will. If the cruel tyrant that heads the house of Saud had any balls he’d be selling his oil in Euros. Surely you won’t bat an eye if you realized it is us screwing them over, would you?
Those stupid Saudi’s are going to feel the lash of nature if they don’t get with the program and realize that women are the most important and intelligent sector of their society. And they are going to have to adjust their “law” to reflect human rights or they likewise are going to be castigated. The Revolution is not going to stop at changing the political profile of the U.S., and anyone who abuses women or children are going to find themselves punished more harshly than otherwise might be warranted. And anyone who thinks that this Revolution is only going to be a local effect better prepare themselves for the long haul, because the program is already activated which will change the global society to a humanistic profile.
By supplying fighters as terrorists, the Saudis maintain the requirements and excuse for continuing occupation of Iraq. The continuing attacks in Iraq can then be blamed on Iran and Syria, suiting the Israel and Sunni agenda. The US of I gets to keep its fingers in the Oil. War in the middle east stops development of strength and independence of states which might threaten Israel. The MI complex keeps up the flow of money. There is an external threat requiring internal repression in the USI. Bush cannot be impeached, since most of the offences involve the implementation and consequent lies and anti-terror rationale of the Iraqi Oil Middle East strategy, the holy of holies for the US of I, in which most of the government is complicit. All is locked down with great pressure as interlocking pieces. The Democrat presidential successor will not be allowed to touch its essentials. Anyone like Kucinich will sidelined. Eventually the likes of the brutal Kingdom laws will apply to the unwilling population in the US of I too. It will be war till the death of the US of I as we knew it.
Gallen, what do you mean by ’so-called “terrorists”?’
If, in fact, the Saudis are responsible for sponsoring terrorism, why not plan to bomb the fuck out of them like we are planning for Iran?
dcbeltway 1/27 1.45p,
Thanks for enlightening the readers with a”politically correct” lecture on the virtues of Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia. I’m sure most of them didn’t know Saudi Arabia is a country and Islam, by contrast, is a religion. Bet they didn’t know either, that all of Israel’s neighbors are countries of people taught to respect and protect Jews and Christians as “people of the book.” That’s the polite line repeated everywhere except in practice.
Even the Saudi leaders decades ago famously told an American president, “If you think you don’t like us (The Saudi Royals), you’ll like the ones who come after us even less.” That’s because many of the people are even more radical than the leadership, and if the Royals all left, the people would vote Sharia Law right back in, in a heartbeat, just as we see The Taliban take over in pockets of Pakistan and, for a while, in the whole country of Afghanistan. The religion lends itself to gross intolerance, and, to the extent America has funded the whole region with oil dollars, we ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
When women unveil, walk alone, drive, work, and vote, and are constitutionally freed from judges who can order them publicly whipped in front of the supermarket (the marketplace), I’ll buy your “reform” talk about Saudi Arabia. But don’t look for it in your lifetime.
Christianity has absolutely nothing in common with Islam. Old roots? Who cares? Christianity ends with Christ on the Cross and salvation for those who believe in him and follow his teachings. Mohammed came along 600 years later and re-wrote a different scripture to his own vision. Try asking people on the street in Saudi Arabia to follow Christ and skip Mohammed. It’s a good way to get whipped if not killed. For Christians, Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive places on earth, and for American Christians to have padded the whole area with oil money, then arms, for more than half a century is shameful. We don’t need to hate them, but we’ve been very, very wrong to fund them for blind convenience.
As for the Saudi nationals flying into American buildings and serving as foreign fighters, it’s as my Grandma used to say. “Pretty is as pretty does.”
Islam is not going to reconcile itself to Western ways in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else unless and until (1)
We stop funding it. (2) People there are re-educated. that
You people in this forum and in this country better wake the FUCK up and connect the FUCKING dots. Ever since hemp for fuel was outlawed back in the 1930s first through taxation and then the DEA along with FDR’s biggest mistake of “negotiating” with the Saudis, America has dragged itself into being Saudi Arabia’s NUMBER ONE FINANCIAL PRISON SLAVE ! Everything that is manufactured, eaten, worn, etc … in addition to transportation comes from petroleum. It’s time to SHUT DOWN THE DRUG WAR, legalize Cannibas and allow it to penetrate the market especially since it replaces petroleum all the way and requires none and does not deplete, and show America that “YES, WE CAN FREE OURSELVES OF DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL !”
Of course the Saudis (and not Iraq or Canada) was behind 9-11! And, of course, they are not on the terrorist watch lists. And, of course it is like we are blaming all the wrong people while letting the Saudi’s (some of them, at least) fund terrorism.
And, of course, the Saudis engage in a lot of human rights violations - just ask William Sampson who just avoided getting beheaded there for a crime he did not commit. How much of that is religion and how much of it is cultural is something that can be debated since one tends to shape the other.
Daniel David says: Christianity has absolutely nothing in common with Islam. Old roots? Who cares? Christianity ends with Christ on the Cross and salvation for those who believe in him and follow his teachings.
Where does it begin?
MAHER ARAR: And when I arrived in Syria 2 months later I requested a copy of the Koran after one of the consular visits and they gave it too me. And most of the time I read the story of the prophet Joseph…
It’s a Biblical story, and um, where his brothers conspired and put him in a dry well and after 40 years he became um, I mean they meet together again and at that time he was, he was the Finance Minister in Egypt after spending 7 years in prison.
So that kind of story, whenever I read it I used to cry a lot , so I felt very connected to that story because I was in a very similar position and actually told this to my wife in one of the letters I dictated to the consul. I told her I am innocent and I want to teach Baraa my daughter this story and I want her to stay proud of her father who is an innocent man and he was put in jail unjustly.
Monia says: actually I did I talked to Baraa about it my daughter about it, and I told her it is very important even though we don’t know where your Father is going to be out, we should um stay close together and um you should be proud of your Father. And um, she kept saying he’s the best Dad. And I also talked to her about what he wanted her to know about the story of Joseph, which in Arabic we say Yussef but it is the same prophet, but is a fascinating story and I think uh it helped not only her but it helped me.
MAHER ARAR says: I mean the word Islam itself is extracted from the word Salaam which means peace. So that’ s when Muslim greet each other they say Peace be upon you and this is not unique to Islam actually. Even in Judaism they say Shalom, Shalom means peace right?
MAHER ARAR says: I think what my wife has done she actually people to understand or to change the stereotypes about Muslim women in general. And I do encourage all Muslim women in general to take part in politics and be more active you know and to speak out. There are many Muslim women who are educated.
http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/coverstory_maherarar.html
The Muslim Canadian Congress supports gay marriage and opposes Sharia Courts. Are they any less Muslim for doing so?
Then there is Parvez Sharma. ‘A Jihad for Love’ was about wanting to be Gay and Muslim - rather than choosing between the two.
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1719
Plenty of Muslims are progressive which is the point of my post that not all Muslims follow Salaffi/Wahabbism and majority object to that extremism! Daniel wasn’t reading it clearly and Daniel you were lumping all of Islam as being that of Saudi practices so I had to correct that. As a Muslim woman I object to the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia its barbaric. For those who are interested in learning about Progressive Muslims please see:
http://www.pmuna.org/.
Thanks and peace be upon you all.
When are the chimp crime family’s petro-customers right here in the left branches of US society going to finally wean themselves off the petro-likker? How about biofuel contracts with our local small farmers? And taking jobs closer to home, say, within bicycle distance? How about showing up at the local city planning meetings and demanding that business and residential zoning be mixed, and demanding passenger rail?
I would love to hear Fox news or analog spin this. One could just run step by step through the mantra at Fox, typically used with reference to Iran or whatever evil rogue du jour is being demonized, and then show how in fact Saudi Arabia is a far more egregious example of XX.
It should be standard response to any question related to 9/11 and terrorism. Why isn’t Saudi Arabia the first target, as it scores the most points on all the stated barometers of terrorism, including let’s not forget, having supplied more than 80% of the 9/11 terrorists, funding the operation, AND providing the once Bush-backed spiritual guru as the galvanizing force behind the whole thing.
Certainly using any objective criteria, but especially using the stated criteria and mashing it against the available evidence, Saudi Arabia is the single greatest contributor to global terror.
dcbeltway November 27th, 2007 1:45 pm said:
“First of all Saudi Arabia is not Islam. Saudi Arabia is a country. Islam is a religion and the vast majority of Muslims by far do not adhere to the Salaffi/Wahhabi idealogy that many Saudis practice particularly the followers of the Shi’a and Sufi sects of Islam who the Salaffi/Wahabis folk consider infidels/non-believers. Mainstream Sunnis also reject Salaffi/Wahabism.
“Second mainstream Sunni and Shia Muslims recognize that the Jewish people and the Christian people are “people of the book” and therefore to be protected and respected as followers of the same group of prophets Muslims believe in(Abraham, Issac, Jesus etc).
“Let’s be clear that Islam, like Christianity and Judaism is not a monolith. Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam. Islam does not have a hierarchy or a figurehead such as a pope as in Catholicism.”
Well said and it bears repeating. I was living in a primarily Muslim country in the Far East when Khomeini was in power in Iran. We had many discussions about it and I was frequently told, “Steve, that is not Islam, that is politics.
As I studied the Holy Qur’an, I found that to be true. In my opinion, if the Ayatollahs of all of the religious right, Christian, Jewish and Islamic, would actually read and apply the lessons of their holy books instead of cherry picking them for their violent passages to use to foment hate and discontent, these wars would be over in a week.
Every Great Teacher, from Buddha and Confucius through Mohammad (pbuh) has included a passage that reads “Do not unto others as you would not have done unto you.”
Just living up to that “Golden” Rule would end most of this current mess, and would start feeding the hungry and caring for the sick.
Massud: There may not have been ‘terrorists’ involved in the mass destruction of 9/11. there are those who make credible argument for a group of US government black ops who carried out the actions of that infamous day.
And before you dismss this as a paranoid conspiracy theory ask yourself three questions, all relevant:
1) How did the holders of the gold reserves in the World Trade Center know to move all but $2 million dollars of gold out on the day of the attack?
2) Where was the Air Force? And why was there multiple exercises mimicking the exact set of circumstances of 9/11 conveinently happening that day?
3) How and why did Building 7 collapse after a MINOR interior fire?
4) How did any steel girdered building at the WTC collapse from fire when it has never happened anywhere previous to or after 9/11?????
Willybill: Just like the apartment building in Tehran, Iran gave out after being hit by a fully loaded and fueled C-130 Hercules…. oh… wait…. no, it didn’t collapse either.
Hmmmmm.
Tinfoil hats, anyone?
“1) How did the holders of the gold reserves in the World Trade Center know to move all but $2 million dollars of gold out on the day of the attack?”
The booger nose kids at Loose Change were caught with there pants down on this one, and had to edit it out of later releases. C’mon, you gotta keep up with these things!
maxpayne,
It is no coincidence that America fights resource wars for oil and BEGS for oil in the Arab world all the while denying us all the plants and greatest ideas of renewability that could save us all. I wouldn’t invest any faith in the current Left or Right here in America as neither side wants to actually solve the problems right before us no matter how loudly they promise. And a Middle? Well, forget it. There’s no Middle in America, PERIOD. And don’t be fooled by either the Democrats or GOP trying to move to the “middle”. It’s a TRAP !
Saudi Arabia is our ally in terror, because it is not a country… it is the Private Estate of the House of Saud. And we don’t meddle with private property, that would be communism! In fact, Ron Paul must beam with pride when he points to Saudi Arabia as a shining example of the end result of his political philosophy, a whole country as private property!
And never mind the rabble outside the Saudi gated community. They are always getting into trouble. The rabble don’t represent the wishes of the Owners. Maybe they can be paid to go elswhere to make trouble. And maybe that can kill two birds with one stone, or AK-47 as the case may be.
So of course, Republicans are on Arabia’s side, as the Saudis are ne plus ultra pro-private property and pro-capitalism… and the Saudis have baksheesh. And Republicans are nothing if not baksheesh-friendly. If you have baksheesh, how can you be a terrorist? By the Big Book of Bush Definitions, you cannot be, even if you are the biggest one! (See ‘hyper-national corporations’ under Kissinger, Henry and Giuliani, Rudolph, and Clinton, Hillary)
Now you take Afghanistan, their sorry asses had to be kicked in… no baksheesh, no laundry. But the Family Saud, well, they are in W’s ‘have-more’ base (and it is truly base). Certainly, W relishes the thought of being able to be King al-Boosh of America, and having the American continent private proerty - his! He definitely acts as if it was. So that is why, boys and girls, that Saudi Arabia is not a terrorist state. It is instead Capitalism and Private Property at its purest. And Republicans admire it for that reason. It reminds them of them.
They the Saudi’s, are simply the second Zionist state in the middle east. If you become Muslim you have rights in Saudi Arabia. If you convert to Judaism in Israel you have rights. Isn’t organized religion wonderful? Is it no wounder the world is in the shape its in!
FVHorn says, “Ron Paul must beam with pride when he points to Saudi Arabia as a shining example of the end result of his political philosophy, a whole country as private property!”
With due respect, you don’t have a clue to the Libertarian philosophy of the Honorable Dr. Paul. Expanded individual liberty, small government, free (de-regulated) commerce, sound money, fiscal responsibility and respect for private property. DOES THIS SOUND LIKE THE POLICY OF THE MEDIEVAL HOUSE OF SAUD TO YOU?
I think willybill is smarter than the average bear. Whatever your perspective is on 911, this we know for sure: YOU CANNOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU BECAUSE THEY ARE A HABITUAL LIAR.
Jaale asks if the House of Saud could be libertarian? I say it depends, like a lot of things, if you are with the ‘in’ crowd or the far bigger ‘out’ crowd. From the out crowd, it looks positively undemocratic. And it isn’t. BUT, let us go through Jaalle’s list: a)individual liberty -CHECK, as in this country, there is a lot of liberty for those with money and connections, and as in this country (with over two million prisoners and some fifty million uncovered for healthcare) there is not so much for those without. And Dr. Paul himself wants to rescind the right of women’s choice. But remember, we are talking about private property and the ‘OWNERS’ can do what they like with their property under libertarianism, can’t they, so the question is MOOT; b)small government - CHECK, cant’t get much smaller than a king and his ministers; c) free commerce -CHECK, you betcha, the world comes to the oil bazaar; d) sound money - yup… ours, that and gold, both black and shiny; e) fiscal responsibility - far more than we in the US, as Arabia doesn’t have 800 overseas military bases and they ‘don’t have no welfare’ and no taxes; f) respect for private property -CHECK, OBVIOUSLY, and we come to the clincher, the END result of unfettered private property/libertarianism/feudalism… ALL the stuff finally being owned by one family/tribe/corporation! So you see, Saudi Arabia (and Dubai, etc) is the perfect example of Libertarianism. And if you don’t like what the PRIVATE OWNERS do with and in THEIR LAND, you can just GET OFF their PRIVATE PROPERTY.
The puppet show goes on and obviously many people are caught up in it /with it?!?! Of course - the last bastion of all dictators including Bush - is to prophesize - how much ‘better’ he/they are than a completely extreme example of the worst - of COURSE never the best - that would be too much to ask - I mean –honesty or should I say HONESTLY.
The prelude merely demonstrates - that as the Saudi’s use preposterous logic to justify why they should be ‘dictators’ - sort of similar to Musharraff- no one seems to be talking about (like in the US) the vast majority of peace loving, cooperative individuals who ARE actually the fabric of the country - but find themselves being SUCKED dry via taxation, a cascade of meaningless but menacing laws which in effect will hold even the most pusillanamous act as traitorous- for example supporting a charity.
As usual - the masses avert there eyes to the sins of the ‘chosen’ brethren amongst them - EVEN in THIS country. The fact that there has been a literal parade of corrupt, incompetent and worst of all callous representatives - who would denounce a sincere mother of a fallen soldier in an useless conflict (Cindy Sheehan) - betray the billions of dollars of US citizens who have only ONE abiding interest- like most middle class caught in a diifcult choice - which is when in doubt - choose being comfortably NUMB.
This charade which supposes no complicity of the populace to dictatorships, oligarchies and plutocracies is flawed and self-excusing. What is the answer - the question being asked mostly in the silent tomb which should be a garden -called the mind. That’s easy enough - and too hard at the same time. After all - complicity has its gains - children/legacy obtaining that which they would lose in a world of pure competition, rules being made and enforced to enforce the status quo– why- obviously because competition is NOT good for the status quo and Darwinian ethics and foundations crumble against the reality that one can NOT compete against the whole world. Despite the marketing madness which calls forth multiple and numerous ‘world’ championships - we see the fraudulence of it all - at least I hope we do.
Back on point - the strong survive - if we must compete by exposing ourselves to ruin by being ruled by a true democracy — so be it. And by example- that this actually is the WAY - let it be.
if tomorrow there is a hungrier, more compliant and more hard working mexican/arab/african after my job - so be it - let the good lord give me the strength to battle in competence and desire and not resort to petty tricks and barriers to prevent the VERY myth I enforce and teach to myself and my kin.
Be not afraid - after all - we all shall die - the secret is to LIVE.
DCBeltway wrote: “Mainstream Sunni and Shia Muslims recognize that the Jewish people and the Christian people are “people of the book” and therefore to be protected and respected as followers of the same group of prophets Muslims believe in(Abraham, Issac, Jesus etc).”
Yes, that’s true, but the Quran is quite clear that they must pay tribute for this protection and submit to Islamic authority. See 9:29. And up to the 20th century, that’s exactly what happened. Why leave out that important detail?
Armed jihad against infidels, including “peoples of the book” who refuse to submit and pay tribute, is a core part of every school of Islam. Where the Wahabis differ is in the ease with which they declare other Muslims to be infidels, especially the Shia. They also come up with a few gems that indeed can’t possibly be in the Quran or Hadith, like forbidding women to drive cars. Where Islam doesn’t oppress, tribal law will.
Libertas fugit must have missed the verses of the Quran that endorse sexual slavery (4:3), calls Christians blasphemers and threatens them for believing in a Trinity(5:73 - “If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.”), and naturally has a lot of unpleasant things to say about Jews in many places. It also has an imaginary conversation in which Jesus denies his own divinity (5:116). From cover to cover the book has a few themes repeated over and over: Allah is all powerful, Allah will punish and torment polytheists and unbelievers, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and he must be obeyed. Hence the juridical character of the Hadith, which prescribe death for apostates from Islam, among other things. And the inspiration provided by his deeds as a warlord.
To put Muhammad in the same box as Buddha or Jesus or Gandhi, or even Moses–who was also a warlord–is deeply dishonest and offensive.
Ah! the good ol’ USA - the prostitute of the world.
This is a fine article that hilights the deep hypocrisy of the so-called ‘war on terror’. Islamic jihadism is merely a militant expression of the Saudis extremist ideology, Wahhabism, an 18th C. Hanbalite heresy. The Saudis were installed into power by the British and more recently the Americans (the Anglo-American Axis) have continued to support this most vicious of regimes. The Saudis meanwhile export Wahhabi ideology to all parts of the Muslim world. i know this as a Muslim. They pour money into mosques, they take control of peak organisations, they fund libraries, they sponsor chairs in universities. Against this moderate and progressive Muslims haven’t got a chance. As long as the west continues to support the Saudis no one should take the ‘war on terror’ seriously. For background on the Saudi’s role in Muslim extremism go to: http://www.theabodeofpeace.com/history.html
Any society that judges women to be inferior to men is just plain stupid. All intellectual indicators show that women are, as a gender, smarter than men. So any society that currently doesn’t take advantage of that intelligence is bound to ossify, and in these times of necessary technological adroitness that can only mean that nature will see to their decline. In the future, there will be no need for armies and all such institutions will become redundant as Socialism and Humanism progress to become the models of all governments. So such criminal gangs as the Saudi “royal” family and all other mafia types, whether they be kings or queens or dictators of whichever stripe, will be purged.
” think willybill is smarter than the average bear.”
Not for parroting booger nose conspiracy sites he isn’t. Infact, this proves he’s not smart, because he isn’t keeping up with events, given that Loose Change has debunked themselves on the gold reserves thing by not including it in the “final cut”.
Vera Gottlieb wrote: “Ah! the good ol’ USA - the prostitute of the world.”
Hey! You’re insulting prostitutes! They usually don’t invade peoples homes and torture them. Unless that’s what the customers are paying for.
Jakenewton…I find it interesting that folks find it necessary to judge my “smartness”. Be that what it is (and I would never have the rudeness not to accept what I view as a compliment), WHERE and WHEN did I say anything about gold reserves???
“WHERE and WHEN did I say anything about gold reserves???”
I’m sorry, that was Gallen, I apologize.
You’re comment of course was this:
“4) How did any steel girdered building at the WTC collapse from fire when it has never happened anywhere previous to or after 9/11?????”
Which is a typical oversimplified and false analysis of what happened, as often comes from conspiracy web sites.
It *did* happen before and, in the case of WTC it wasn’t solely “from fire”, WTC1 and 2 were physically damaged by airliners and WTC7 was struck by a collapsing building. And of course these buildings had unique designs with unique vulnerabilities.
Jakenewton..When did it happen before? And what plane hit WTC 7? I accept your apology.
militantliberal to insult prophet Mohammed pbuh is deeply offensive to me.
Militantliberal let me add that there is a huge difference in being critical of a country like Saudi Arabia which we both are highly critical of and insulting someone’s religious beliefs. As I outlined earlier Saudi Arabia’s Salafism is something I object to particularily how they treat women, Jews, Christians, and other Muslims. There is a difference between that and mainstream Islamic beliefs. However, you sir are an Islamophobe and need to be called on that!
The Windsor Tower in Madrid experienced structural collapse after steel perimeter columns failed due to fire.
WTC7 was struck by a collapsing building, one of the tallest and largest in the world. It also caught fire.
The “did not happen before” with the strongly implied “therefore didn’t happen” is a basic fallacy of logic anyway.
“dcbeltway” seems to want to make a habit of “calling people” on expressing their frustration with Islam.
First it was me, then “militantliberal” above, and in this second instance resorting to the standard complaint that an expressed opinion is “insulting the Prophet”. THE PROBLEM with Islam is, in fact, that the various sects of it find that anything critical of their own interpretations is an insult to the Prophet and many of them pass laws against such talk with severe punishments for even having the discussion.
As for “mainstream” Muslims, there is no such official sect. Those that are spoken of as “mainstream” are those who have chosen to downplay the letter of the Koran and focus instead on some of the humanitarian themes found therein, ignoring the problematic details of the other written words. A guy like militantliberal comes along and delves into the details, and oops, he’s accused of “insulting” again. Thankfully this is America where we discuss things openly–without intent to insult anyone, or insult the Prophet, but also without blinking or winking at the fruit of constant conflict that Islam as a philosophy is astonishingly producing in growing pockets of dischord over much of the world wherever it intersects with people who don’t bow to it.
The simple fact of the matter is that there is no reasonable accomodation between those who insist that Mohammed is THE Prophet, and those who don’t. Words like “mainstream” do not mean anything whatsoever, except to those who want to water down scrutiny of their core beliefs.
JAKE NEWTON - I gather no relation to Isaac?
My apologies for that ad hominem (argument to the man) attack, which although it is totally unwarranted, it is funny to this twisted physicist.
The above is a cursory explanation, that I’ve made w/o the benefit of any equations, to provide an intuitive view to the absurdity of the official story. Elsewhere on CD, I’ve discussed other aspects of this very suspicious circumstances beyond the mere physics of why buildings don’t fall down, see here and here.
Namaste
__ __ __ __ We must be the change
__ __ __ __ we wish to see in the world __ Gandhi
“Imagine a forest of really BIG trees that a jet liner crashes into”
Why should I do that? Why is a forest of trees analogous to the WTC towers? And you didn’t mention anything about speed here either.
“the remaining fuel isn’t hot enough, even if it were all present, to melt the fire resistant coated girders “
You should already know that melting was not necessary.
“ Beside the designers originally did analysis of airliner impacts, and knew that it would survive (not without serious damage”
Why do you think the above analysis made at the time was realistic or sufficient?
“the impact of one floor collapsing into each floor below it perfectly in the same footprint for ~ 100 stories is so extraordinarily unlikely”
This link suggests that it was the only way it could have collapsed:
http://www.debunking911.com/towers.htm
“The hand of man involvement is evident in the perfection of the same footprint demolition, which commercially one pays quite a lot for, and even then, with specially design cutting explosive charges on multiple level — in order to not destroy the surrounding buildings (and suffer massive collateral damage law suites.”
I’m sorry, the purpose of the above point is to limit damage for what purpose? Why not limit damage by not imploding the buildings and just crash the planes?
“ there still has never been a steel structure building that has fallen down from fire,”
Demonstrably untrue, see previous post, and you are repeating the “never happened so therefore couldn’t happened” fallacy.
“especially to such a meekly burning one “
What is your very best evidence as to the intensity of the fire? Firefighters on the scene reported WTC7 as “fully involved”.
“the absurdity “
What’s absurd about the intentional implosion theory is the idea that with two smoldering hulks of the WTC towers standing after the fires were put out, that we wouldn’t have gone to war in Afghanistan anyway. Equally absurd is the exponential addition of complexity to a plot that had to be kept secret by adding intentional implosion, a secret that has still evidently been kept.
Islam like Christianity or Judaism can be interpreted in multiple ways. You can read passages of the old and new testement and the Torah and Talumud that preach restraint and you can read passages that preach violence and superiority and the same can be said of the Koran. There is much evidence in the Koran about preaching tolerance such as the passage below:
O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most virtous of you.
Holy Quran 49:13
I have no problem with militantliberals dicussion except for this line which I take offense to:
To put Muhammad in the same box as Buddha or Jesus or Gandhi, or even Moses–who was also a warlord–is deeply dishonest and offensive.
Its a line stating that Mohammed is a warlord and is somehow evil. This is highly offensive and ignorant. I think you can critically discuss Islam as in any other religion without getting self-righteous or using hurtful langauge which he did. As a progressive Muslim myself I constantly analyze and critique my own religion and I understand that there are a myriad of interpretations. I am just against demonizing over 1 billion people on earth with misinformation and many people on this board in order to critique the Saudis are instead critiquing a religion by demonizing it.
dcbeltway,
I am not among those who would call Mohammed a warlord, or call him any other name or be critical of him in any way. But neither am I among those who can believe he is The Prophet. This is simply because us folks raised as Christians (and reading our Bibles completely as adults) find Jesus wholly sufficient, and are suspicious of an additional scripture written centuries later for some purpose not disclosed or even predicted by the Bible. For the Quran to then be REQUIRED in some cultures to be seen as the pre-eminent writing from or about God, a most basic problem arises. Who are we following? Christ, or Mohammed? Because we choose to? Or because it is required to live in the culture?
Those of us, though, who would pick the best passages of peace from both the Quran and the Bible would find much to agree upon. Would that there were more Christians willing to do so and more Muslims both willing and permitted by their societies to do so.
It’s certainly not yet a trend in Saudi Arabia and many other places, but maybe someday somewhere. Peace to you.
Daniel no one is asking you to recognize Mohammed as a prophet I am just asking others to show some respect to the beliefs of others and ideas that others hold as sacred. Muslims for instance would never insult the prophets of Christians or Jews as these are also prophets found within Islam. Muslims believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) and Moses (peace be upon him). I believe Jesus was a prophet and not the son of God but I would not insult others who hold the belief that Jesus is the son of God. I would respect that disbelief while respectfully disagreeing about aspects of it.
I wish that people from all three faiths would interpret more and utilize the peace passages from their holy books. Its hard to listen to someone like Bush call for a crusade (his own words) and then call himself a Christian and then turn around and call someone like Ariel Sharon who was found guilty of the massacre of Sabra and Shatilla a man of peace. People from all three faiths are guilty of commiting heinous crimes. People have faults, commite crimes, make mistakes, and engage in evil behavior. But people do these things not religion itself. You cannot hold the actions of a few bad people and use it to smear the believers of an entire faith. Its wrong and ignorant to do so.
As I said above the interpretation of the Saudis the sect of Salafism is in desperate need of reform. I do not like their prosetlitizing to other Muslims and their views on women, minorities, Shi’a and Sufi Muslims, and Christians and Jews. I believe though that there will be reformers in that country the problem is they need a platform and the ability to be safe in order to transform that society.
dcbeltway,
Let’s both agree to be hopeful that there will be reforms in Saudi Arabia and anywhere/everywhere else that religious persecution exists. Going back to my first post, I believe Americans have been wrong to find it necessary to spend as much as we have on Saudi oil, money that unfortunately has funded government domination of people via religion in that particular place, and money that may well have also supported various forms of terrorism outside the Saudi borders.
As for politics, I don’t approve of President Bush’s policies either.
Just as a heads up to other folks contributing to CD. Some recent remarks I made about 9/11 have been moderated from this thread. The webmaster has refused to answer my inquiries. If you check further up on this thread, you may come to your own conclusions as to who may be responsible. My remarks were intelligent, not obscene and within the guidelines (as far as I can tell) of good taste. Welcome to freedom of the press!
Daniel I agree with you and I think foriegn aid in the Middle East also has its failures. Massive amounts of foriegn aid to Israel have only resulted in further settlements and no accountability along with no peace and further war, in Egypt foriegn aid has kept a corrupt dictator in place, in Lebanon foriegn aid has led to stregnthening secterianism and finally our buying of Saudi oil has resulted in Saudi Arabia funding extremist activities. I think as a country we need to reevaluate all these things across the board and reconsider how we spend our money in the region.
If we are going to give foriegn aid it should be to create jobs, foster economic growth, improve education, and support civil society. We already do some of that effectively but I think thats where the bulk should actually go.
Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. But, what did Bush do he saw to it that important Saudis were able to leave the country when no one else was able to. But, instead of attacking Saudia Arabia we attack Afghanistan. After that Iraq who had literally nothing to do with 9/11. Now he wants to attack Iran who was equally blameless. It should be obvious to everyone why we have never caught Osama bin laden. He is a bosom buddy of the Butcher of Baghdad’s. One isn’t any better than the other one. It’s obvious with a leader like Bush we don’t need any enemies. This man has been a blight on our country since 2000! When are we going to get the backbone to unload him and his whole administration??????