White House On Defensive Over Torture Memos
U.S. officials confirm existence of documents that appear to endorse extreme interrogation
WASHINGTON-The Bush administration found itself in familiar territory yesterday, facing accusations it was covertly torturing terrorism suspects and holding them in secret “black sites.
“The White House confirmed the existence of two secret memos, first reported in The New York Times, that appear to authorize the Central Intelligence Agency the ability to use its most extreme interrogation techniques, including simulated drowning known as “water-boarding.”
But it said the memos did not circumvent a U.S. law prohibiting “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment of suspects or an official 2004 policy that declared torture “abhorrent.”
Questions about harsh interrogation techniques have become a hallmark of the Bush administration and most of those questions continue to swirl around former attorney general Alberto Gonzales who, the reports said, approved the legal opinions to bring policy more in line with the wishes of U.S. President George W. Bush.
Gonzales was driven from office last month amid charges he had politicized the justice department and compromised its independence in his zeal to accommodate his mentor, Bush.
The man nominated to succeed him, Michael Mukasey, faces a Senate confirmation hearing later this month and the question of torture policy seems certain to be raised at those hearings.
“The policy of the United States is not to torture,” said White House spokesperson Dana Perino.
“The president has not authorized it, he will not authorize it. But he had done everything within the corners of the law to make sure that we prevent another attack on this country, which is what we have done in this administration.”
Democrats in the House of Representatives demanded the two memos be released and promised to probe administration interrogation policy.
They said they would call Steven Bradbury, the acting chief of legal counsel at the U.S. Justice Department, identified by the Times as the author of the memos.
The revelations immediately became fodder in the Democratic presidential race.
Illinois Senator Barack Obama called the revelations an “outrageous betrayal” of this country’s core values.
“Torture is how you create enemies, not how you defeat them,” he said in a statement.
“Torture is how you get bad information, not good intelligence. Torture is how you set back America’s standing in the world, not how you strengthen it.”
Connecticut Senator Christopher Dodd said the law made it “crystal clear” that torture was illegal.
“It is `abhorrent’ that the Bush administration would publicly disavow torture, while its office of legal counsel is secretly interpreting settled law to reach the opposite conclusion,” Dodd said.
John McCain, the Arizona senator and Republican presidential hopeful who is a former prisoner of war, said water-boarding is specifically outlawed under the 2005 law. He was instrumental in the passage of that law, and his amendment prohibited the use of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
McCain has stood firm against an administration, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, which wanted unfettered presidential powers to approve harsh interrogation.
Human-rights advocates said Congress must use the upcoming confirmation hearings to put an end to any back-door torture.
“Congress should be clear - it will not confirm another attorney general who advises the president that it is okay to break the law,” said Joanne Mariner of Human Rights Watch.
The Center for Constitutional Rights, which represents many of the more than 300 detainees held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, said its clients were being tortured even as the Bush administration was publicly denouncing the practice.
“Torture is illegal, immoral, and it doesn’t work. Detainee torture policies that produce faulty intelligence and exaggerated confessions result in innocent men being locked up,” said Vincent Warren of the rights centre.
The Reuters news agency, citing an unnamed U.S. counterterrorism official, said a high-ranking Al Qaeda terrorist known as Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi had been held in a secret site in late 2006.
He has since been transferred to Guantanamo Bay.
Bush acknowledged the secret detention sites in September 2006, when he transferred 14 detainees from the secret prisons to Guantanamo Bay.
Their existence, first revealed in 2005 by The Washington Post, sparked an international outcry, with some European officials charging the United States was illegally torturing people on their soil.
© 2007 The Toronto Star
The president is know to call black white and white black and say it is so because it is so. We knew a long time ago he was lying. Maybe Bush believes his own lies, which is scarier then if he could tell the difference between reality and his make believe world.
He wouldn’t look so tortured if he hadn’t started it in the first place.
not rain enough in the heavens
I believe Bush believes what he’s been told. The lawyers have this tortured (bad pun alert) definition that basically says if we don’t kill someone or make them experience the equivalent level of pain as death, then it isn’t torture. Thus these mafia-esque lawyers tell Bush that the US doesn’t torture anyone, and he believes them.
Of course, even this is false as hundreds of prisoners have died in US custody, so surely at least they were tortured even under this crock of a legal definition.
Its kinda amazing, this fool ran for office making fun of Bill Clinton for Bill’s ‘tortured’ definitions of sex and the word ‘is’ during the Monica affair. Now he’s up there splitting the same sort of legal hairs on the much more serious topic of the US inflicting massive amounts of pain and psychological damage on anyone unfortunate to come into our hands.
Is anyone else having problems with the site today? I can no longer see posts that were posted before the past few minutes. Also, the site asked to run ActiveX very early this morning when I got off work?
1984 is getting to be a VERY long year.
McCain standing firm against the administration hmm…
Laugh? I almost waterboarded myself.
Kristina40,
something’s changed with the site’s appearance. The size of the text, the width of the boxes. Maybe they’re working on it?
what’s up with this nike thing, get it off asap pleassseeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kristina40 – This site has probably been hacked into by the FBI (only half joking).
Torture Memos – “Congress is shocked, shocked I tell you!” Yah right. If fair-minded people around the world think what the US is doing is disgusting, gee I wonder what the friends and family of the victims are feeling? What was the question about why do they hate us?
Also in the news today “American Peace Activists Denied Entry to Canada After Appearing on FBI Database” – Now Americans may start to look longingly at the more liberal travel restrictions of North Korea.
Thanks geoff and jlocke, I noticed the change in fonts after it asked me to allow activex. This morning when I got up, the fonts are back to normal but I can’t see the old posts. It will say 8 comments and there won’t be any…
I think they are just changing the system perhaps…or maybe it’s the fbi LOL
I feel much safer after hearing Bush tell us how he’s keeping us safe without torture just good questioning in overseas locations he fails to mention for security purposes.
I am patriotic.
I am patriotic.
I am patriotic.
I am patriotic.
Kristina,
I’m not getting the problem with any old posts, I looked back through several days. It might be the way your computer’s configured and an incompatibility with what they’re trying to do at commondreams with the appearance of the site. chances are they’ll get it sorted out.
That’s the one thing you do when you have a site is keep making changes and changes create problems. I like the way the site’s progressed since the early days though! Back in the late 90s when the computer I had crashed every other hour. Someone gave it to me.
These discussion boxes are wider and the text is bigger. I wish there were a better way to do quotes, but keeping things really simple (no italics, no text colors, no bold or highlighting, no photos, no smiley faces for the most part) has obviously been very effective. I’d like indents (tabs) and maybe italics but that’s the way I think.
Welcome, we are a leading company in dealing with brand clothing and shoes
I say we make an exception in the case of this guy, though.
Waterboarding for spammers!
AN ACCIDENTAL TRUTH:
“The president has not authorized it, he will not authorize it. But he had done everything within the corners of the law to make sure that we prevent another attack on this country, which is what we have done in this administration.”
Grammatically speaking, the “which” clause refers to the noun or noun phrase that immediately precedes it: in this case, “another attack on this country.” And yes, that is exactly what they have done.
Samski–
“McCain standing firm against the administration hmm…” Me too. I wondered if there was another McCain they were speaking of.
“The president has not authorized it, he will not authorize it. But he had done everything within the corners of the law to make sure that we prevent another attack on this country, which is what we have done in this administration.”
No? he gets fall guys to do it and makes signing statements in the form of get out of jail free cards.
So what’s he saying, Gonzales had unilateral power to make such decisions beyond his or Cheney or Rumsfeld’s knowledge?
Give me break.
Just use the old Reagan excuse about believing in his heart he didn’t do it.
SSDD
“Bush says US ‘does not torture’”
By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer [excerpt]
WASHINGTON - President Bush defended his administration’s methods of detaining and questioning terrorism suspects.. saying they are both successful and lawful. “When we find somebody who may have information regarding a potential attack on America, you bet we’re going to detain them, and you bet we’re going to question them,” he said…. “The American people expect us to find out information, actionable intelligence so we can help protect them. That’s our job.”[sic]
Actually Mr president constitutionally that’s NOT your job at all…Your job is to uphold, preserve and protect the Constitution of America. Your job is to lead by high moral and ethical example….Then again the ‘terristss’ are coming to get us ‘merricans’ and we got get ‘em there’ so they don’t ‘git us ear’…
It’s like watching a bad “b” grade ‘nightmare movie’ in black and white at 3AM in the morning..
All this BS about the US not engaging in torture is strictly for the willfully uninformed. More people need to read Naomi Klein`s *The Shock Doctrine* to get a grasp of the central role torture plays in terrorizing populations into submission. What Friedman called `economic shock therapy` relies on torture as one of the indispensable tools of economic transformation. Those anti-torture activists who stick exclusively to the human rights argument are way behind the curve. Human rights are a matter of complete indifference to Friedmanites, who see “freedom“ (for multinational corporations) as the big umbrella under which human rights find their tiny, insignificant place. Friedmanites will argue that without such freedom, there can be no human rights anyway.
curmudgeon99 October 5th, 2007 12:27 pm
are you really saying “Do it to Julia?”
FSD - Full spectrum domination. Republicans and Democrats - two horns on the one goat. The USA does not and never will dominate or own the planet. Clinton almost impeached for a minor sexual peccadillo - the next crowd unimpeached for mass murder, displacement of peoples, massive theft and destruction. So much for the land of the Free and the Brave. You lot are beneath contempt - plenty of talk and no action. God help America.
“When we find somebody who may have information regarding a potential attack on America, you bet we’re going to detain them, and you bet we’re going to question them,” he said
just as they detained and inTERRORgated the Bin Ladens on 9/11?
______
NEW YORK, Sept. 2 (UPI) — The bin Laden family were granted extraordinary White House privileges to fly out of U.S. airspace following the attacks of Sept. 11th, 2001.
Former White House counter terrorism expert Richard Clarke told Vanity Fair the Bush administration decided to allow a group of Saudis to fly out of U.S. airspace just after Sept. 11– a time when access to the United States was still restricted and required special government approval.
According to the magazine’s sources, at least four flights with about 140 Saudis, including roughly two-dozen members of the bin Laden family, flew to Saudi Arabia that week without even being interviewed or interrogated by the FBI.
Clarke, who headed the counter terrorism security group of the National Security Council, said he does not now recall who initiated the request for approval. He said it was probably either the FBI or the State Department, both of which have denied playing any such role.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/030903binladen1.html
‘Connecticut Senator Christopher Dodd said the law made it “crystal clear” that torture was illegal.’
And then Congress continued to annoint this sadistic torture with America’s blood and treasure.
God help America. Come yourself and don’t send Jesus - this is no place for your child.
It may be that the US really doesn’t torture. It could be just another thing Bush’s “base” decided to offshore.
Pelosi said impeachment proceedings against Bush are “off the table”.
That makes her an accomplice or at the very least an accessory to the crime of torture and, according to Dodd, the violation of settled US law.
Impeach Pelosi… vote Sheehan in San Francisco.
The U.S.’s torturers, mercenaries, occupiers, economic advisors, military advisors, etc. belong to the same counterterrorist bureaucracy.
The overseers of this bureaucracy could be conceptualized as terrorcrats or terror technocrats.
Many neocons are terror technocrats: Negroponte, Cheney, Abrams, Pipes, Cagan, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, etc.
The neocons have been with us since the advent of Reagan.
The need for terror technocrats emerges with rise of disaster capitalism, gangster capitalism, pentagon capitalism, crony capitalism or corporatism.
The policies they advocate lead to the terrorism of everyday life which is based on both fear mongering and eliminating institutions of social security.
In other words, the terror technocrats gain more wealth and power by expanding the right hand of the state: military, spy agencies, internal federal police, prison systems.
To redirect the budget to the right of the state, terror technocrats organize, produce and distribute fear and antipathy toward various social groups via social darwinism, terrorism, anti-communism, anti-socialism, anti-liberalism, racism, sexism and classism).
As a result, their succesful use of fear-mongering leads to contracting the left hand of the state by ideologically preparing the ideological context for free (not fair) trade, deregulation, privatization, no-bid contracts, welfare “reform”, low minimum wages, tort reform, anti-choice, elite-oriented tax reductions, unitary president, erosion of civil liberties, ect.
So far, progressives do not have the organization, communication infrastructure and massive funding needed to counter the actions of the above terror technocrats.
We should submit Bushie to every interrogation technique that his people have used on their ‘terrorist’ detainees - then we’ll tell him it’s not torture, no really, it’s harmless.
so full of shit…
I don’t know why they don’t just use newspapers; picking one up and reading it is torture enough these days.
Good one, Hey Now!
Just one look at the expression on Bush’s face makes it obvious he is lying.
Of course, he’s pretty much lying every time he opens his mouth!
Love how he used the word “protect” about five million times in his lying speech about how the US doesn’t torture.
Yes, Daddy, it’s “for our own good”! And I’m sure it “hurts you more than it hurts us”………
White House new motto:
HYPOCRITES R’ US
How many torturers will some day be joining civil society?
Canine corps dogs in Vietnam, rendered neurotic and hysterically savage by their training and experience, were all put down. None of them could be trusted to live with people.
How many murderers of innocent civilians?
Does anyone know of a study on Vietnam vets that investigated whether they ever recovered from treating a civilian population as “The Enemy”? Perhaps some have been done but the findings repressed?
I’m certainly glad Dana Perino has reassured us that this President has not approved torture. There’s nothing wrong with slapping prisoners, waterboarding them, and subjecting them to intense cold. Only sissies are bothered by these techniques. Humiliation and degradation? Bah, prisoners should take it philosophically. It certainly isn’t torture. These good Christian men at the head of our government would never resort to torture.
I’m sure many of you on this site have already seen the movie “America to Fascism”. I watched it for the first time today. It was chilling and yet it seemed to only confirm what I already suspected or knew. These “people” are monsters! There is no humanity left in them and they have got to be stopped! Here’s a link to the movie for those that haven’t seen it, be warned, it’s chilling and I found myself crying through parts of it and so lividly angry in others I could barely contain my rage.
http://tinyurl.com/2xl433
If that link doesn’t work, just google America: Freedom to Fascim and you should get it. I really hope you take the time to watch it. It is rather long but it systematically shows how the Country and ultimately the World is being stolen from it’s people by a few wealthy bankers. Everyone in this country should watch this.
Perhaps someone should get our devout Christian president a “What Would Jesus Do?” braclet. He can gaze at it and picture the Prince of Peace sitting by as one of His Father’s children is water boarded and saying, “Verily I say unto you, in as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
Perhaps George would have a sudden revelation: “He who would trouble his own house will inherit the wind.”
Even Bu$h the inferior knows torture is wrong and he is lying about the so called enhanced techniques. But…
1. He believes the ends justifies the means. Oil must be in the hands of his friends.
2. He believes he is only a man if he never backs down to critics. He can kiss Shotgun Dick’s ass tongue and all, because he is on the same side.
3. He knows secrecy and lies are his only option because if illegal acts are admitted, he would be required to stop them and that would be backing down.
4. He is a total psychopath, incapable of self evaluation or empathy. He always says that if people knew all the secret stuff he does they would agree with his decisions. Only a very crazy person says that - would Tutu, Gandhi, Mandela or any Quakers do torture or illegal occupations? How does this square with the assertion that God put him in charge when anyone would do the same thing?
If they really thought it was right, legal and justified, they’d come right out and admit that, yes, they are torturing.
But they won’t come clean and actually defend it. On a substantive level, they know they will lose not only in the public opinion arena, but in the constitutional and legal arena as well. They’ve kept it secretive and refuse to answer simple questions. They’re well aware that it’s wrong, illegal, and unconstitutional. The problem is many neo-cons aren’t.
Torture is sweet to those who have never experienced it.
But you see they don’t torture. Waterboard, sleep deprivation, hot/cold climate manipulation, sensory manipulation, psychological torture, canine intimidation… these are all not cruel and unusual punishment…. This is the typical American justice system at work, along with search and seizures without warrent or even reasonable suspicion, invasion of personal privacy, locking someone up without a fair trial, without charging them with a crime, without access to a lawyer, indefinately, harassing and spying on innocent American civilians…. These are all very American and democratic aspects. This is what makes a free society. Freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.
This book is a must-read to fully understand why the Bush admin is using torture. It has nothing to do with getting intelligence.
http://www.naomiklein.org/
I’d let Dana Perino torture me.
Stop! Stop! Stop these comments! I’ll talk! I’ll talk! I’ll tell you anything you want to know!
Careful you guys,
Don’t give this mini-shrub another Ronald Regan pass “he’s means well, he’s just senile/dumb”
Mini-Shrub knows perfectly well what he authorized, and there is no way we can let him off the hook. He should be tried for crimes against humanity and given the Saddam Huesain treatment, if for no other reason than to give peace to the injured world and protect American security.
Save the planet! Burn only one shrub today!
(balakirev great post by the way, I’m printing that one out.)
“You lot are beneath contempt - plenty of talk and no action. God help America.”
Are you an American social conservative?
That’s just the kind of crap an American religious wacko would post.
It certainly wasn’t Liberals who put our illegitimate pResident in office - either time.
Why are you people so surprised…Don’t you remember that Bush used to torture frogs and other animals as a child. He also shot bb’s at friends as he grew older. Also, remember he was one of two remaining members of a satanic cult in Brownsville .The other 17 were found tortured and skinned. Only by the fact that Bush Sr intervened kept Baby Bush from being chargedwith their murders. The remaining member was charged and convicted and sentenced to death but guess what…Bush pardoned him when he became Governor of Texas.
Does that clarify the fact that Bush has been a torturer all his life and gets his kicks from watching people suffer.
Ask yourself how many people died in Texas death chambers on Bush’s watch and how many were pardoned…
It is very clear that Bush authorized and most probably strongly suggested that torture should be used inside and/or outside of the US. Abu Ghrahib and Guantanamo are just a few examples. The US army and privately run Blackwater security are accountable to nobody or they are most of the time covered for whatever is going and already has been going wrong.
Bush is a dictator and nothing else. It really stunnes me that the congress is clapping hands at each of his speeches showing to the world that the US political system is not representing the people but personal and especially corporate interest.
The Pentagons mission is not anymore (since a long time) to protect US interest but to extend US corporate interest everywhere in the world by any means. This is just plain imperalism. However I can not see any other ’society model’ than a society of technological, digital and electronical fascism.
It’s just a matter of semantics.
Repeat after me:
The brutality formerly known as torture has been rebranded.
Henceforth torture will be known as ____________.
We can agree on a new name, or we can just go free form as we are now doing.
As usual, so simple.
Over the past several days, I’ve read some posts which mentioned Jack London’s book, “The Iron Heel.” I’m almost finished with the book and it matches what’s happening in this country right now. In fact, it seems as if things were worse in the period of time in which the book is set, between 1912 and 1932. And I thought George Orwell was prescient!
If anyone can get their hands on this book - read it. I suppose the book would fall into the category of Historical Fiction, but if Siddhartha was banned by some libraries throughout the country, they certainly wouldn’t leave this one on the shelves.
It’s the same thing that’s happening today except the date has changed. It is a must read.
bush has lied all his life. thats how you become president.
Cassandra: Remember Charles Ng? He was a US marine of Vietnamise decent, trained as a sniper and scout. Was sent specificlly to infiltrate native villages for intelligence, and then kill. He came back to the States, and started hunting, raping and killing women, using the training he recieved. He was very hard to catch, and even evaded the US law until he was caught shoplifting in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
Now imagine all those Blackwater guys, all the CIA spooks, coming home after years of getting their jollies in the depths of Abu Graib, knowing they were immune to criminal prosecution… scared yet?
Beware of the Government that usesthe cover NATIOAL SECURITY, you can be sure it is hiding the truth from the people.The enemy knows what is bing done to them but it must be kept secreit from the people.Belive it.
COMarc
From all accounts, you have it backwards. Gonzales crafted the torture memo to include what Bush and Cheney wanted to authorize.
The administration has it backwards, too. The legal responsibility of an Attorney General is to advise a president of the constitutionality of his actions, not provide a legal-sounding basis for unconstitutional actions at that president’s request.
Hey ezeflyer..
You sick bastard…but I like your sentiments?#@$%$
“This government does not torture people.”
The anti-American Cheneybush shadow government, however, still considers the “Saw” movie series a CIA training manual. Sort of like how they consider “1984″ a Decider’s playbook. Oh, and BTW, the Bush Doctrine does not recognize “ter-ristsss” as actual people who this govrnmint does not torture.
The only acceptable form of torture is the Tickle Torture. And it works way better than electrodes on the genitals that do not cause “organ failure and/or death.” Which is the neocrazyGonzo definition of “official” torture.
Let’s review what God told Bush to do: renditions, illegal spying, secret prisons, Gitmo, 14,000 held without charge indefinitely (not counting Iraq or CIA “prisons,”) tens of thousands of lawless mercenaries on our dime, millions of dead and maimed innocents, an entire nation destroyed along with most of its history. For resource control.
“I understand the images of my country have been distorted,” Mr Bush said (just yesterday.)
“I understand the images of my country have been distorted,” Mr Bush said (just yesterday.)
Notice how Bush uses the passive voice (a common propoganda technique-especially for his Admin) to avoid taking responsibility and instead scapegoat others. The more appropriate term would have been:
“I have distorted the images of the country.”
By Bush’s own reckoning, there is no distinction to be made between terrorists and those that facilitate the activities of terrorists. Using violence and threats of violence to manipulate members of a targeted population to do that which they would never choose to do without being threatened and/or abused is the very essence of terrorism. Thus, whether or not torture is being conducted by third parties at the behest of Bush’s administration or by the U.S. government itself, and whether or not the violent, painful, and occasionally deadly means (let us not forget that many victims of “enhanced interrogation” abroad have been beaten to death) of forcing compliance are acknowledged as “torture,” Bush and his appointees carrying out and defending the infliction of pain and violence on people who have not even been charged with a crime (i.e., those who are due a presumption of innocence) are, by their own standards, “terrorists.”
That said, perhaps they have a point. Perhaps the only way to get them to get past their selective amnesia about the details of their illegal spying, imprisonment, invasion, bombing, destruction of public records, politicization of justice, and other high crimes is to subject them to a little “not torture” of their own design. Or perhaps it is well past time we prove to the loyal Bushies, in a manner they cannot ignore or forget, that simply upholding the law and prosecuting terrorists as criminals is a much more effective and respectable means of protecting national security than operating the government as an enormous, tax payer funded mafia.
Bush believes that lying to us is OK if it’s for our own good. How does he know? He feels it in his gut. That’s what a country gets when only 25% of its eligible voters cast ballots.
“It depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is.” Well, if the Bush administration chooses to define its activities as “not torture,” then they should be subjected to that “not torture” as they answer questions to a Congressional oversight committee. Let’s see if we can get any valuable information from them that way. Nothing else has worked so far.
“This government does not torture people.”
It’s not the definition of torture, but the definition of “government”, that he’s using — like Dick Cheney claiming that the Vice-President is neither fish nor fowl, neither part of the executive nor the legislative branches, depending on how many people he has to f*ck that day. If it’s being done by agents borrowed from other countries or by mercenaries, then he can claim that “this government” doesn’t do it — other people do.
The Smirk’s twisted shithouse of a brain isn’t the issue, because little brother, who has one, would be doing THE SAME THINGS, and making the same arguments. He’d just sound more coherent in making them.
“I could hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half.” — Jay Gould, Wall Street financier, 1886
According to Naomi Klein’s book “The Shock Doctrine”, the objective of US perpetrators of torture is to destroy any sense of solidarity that the torture victim feels with others and to a greater cause. The objective of the torturer is to get the victim to become selfish and believe that in this world that “it’s every man for himself.”
In other words, the objective of the Bush torturer is to “corrupt” the victim, i.e., to make the victim in the image of the Bush torturer, in the image of the Bush regime.
Interviews of Auschwitz survivors indicate that Auschwitz survivors wanted to subject their former Nazi tormentors to the same torture that they had received in Auschwitz. As such, it would seem that a consequence (if not the objective) of Auschwitz was to replicate the psychology of corruption and cruelty in its victims. This is the true nature of EVIL.
bush and all his evil legions are from the old school of obscurantism which means=the people do not deserve the truth.as for torture..it is just their favorite sport…
Remember, these principles were to be binding upon the world, to ensure that nothing like WW-II would ever happen again and that war would become a criminal act with the perpetrators being punishable under International Law
The Nuremberg Tribunal was an international tribunal led by the United States, to try the Nazi war criminals after WW-II. In other words, we set up, defined, and put into law, the Nuremberg Principles.
The Nuremberg Principles
Principle I. Any person who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefore and liable to punishment.
Principle II. The fact that internal law does not impose a penalty for an act which constitutes a crime under international law does not relieve the person who committed the act from responsibility under international law.
Principle III. The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law.
Principle IV. The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.
Principle V. Any person charged with a crime under international law has the right to a fair trial on the facts and law.
Principle VI. The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
(b) War Crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave-labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime.
Principle VII. Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law.
libertas fugit
Thanks for posting those Nuremburg principles, the basis on which the Geneva Conventions rest.
What is the objective of EVIL, of those whose emblem is the emblem of the Nazi SS—the Skull & Bones?
What instrumentalities do the people of the Skull & Bones employ besides torture, war, cruelty, fear, hate, profit?
Don’t stop people; you’re restoring my faith in America.
Bush’s declaration that the United States “does not torture people” makes perfect sense when we consider what the Government of the United States means by the word ‘people.’
By ‘people’ George of the coprophagous smirk means filthy rich sociopaths and those ‘pieces of paper’ that real humans call ‘corporations.’
Corporations and the filthy rich are rewarded for their plunder - only the rest of humanity is tortured. At this rate it should not be long before we start to see exploading cummerbunds and other roadside surprises over here.
Are we safer now? Trust is brittle and respect is earned. Now that trust and respect of our government has been shattered and squandered I wonder at the wisdom of those lining up to try their hand at driving Apollo’s chariot in 2008.
the corners of the law are where
you find the rolled heads of antiquity and the coins lost from the disappeared’s pockets
you find the lolling tongue of monsters wearing starched collars,
o!
how the butcher makes them
gag -
wiping duck brains from their mustaches
the corners of the law of the law
are where all wires lead to
taped to the skin of the sacrifice
in the corners of the law
you find
simulation drowning
you find
who you find in
the dark basement stair -
wet mouth hungry and
full of glee for your
fear.
libertas fugit–
Sounds to me like the Nuremburg Principles amount to an exact definition of imperialism.
“This government does not torture people.” (slap, slap)
bloofer
The Nuremburg principles derive from the trials of Nazi war-criminals and the Nazi regime itself. The principles are the basis for international law vis a vis invasive wars.
By prohibiting some of the crimes against humanity committed by Nazi Germany (the leading one being the imperialistic invasion of other sovereign countries to overthrow a regime, conquer, and subject the people), imperialism was certainly partially “defined” within the parameters of what a nation may and may not do using its military forces.
The Bush administration has violated every one of the principles listed.
“The president has not authorized it, he will not authorize it. But he had done everything within the corners of the law to make sure that we prevent another attack on this country, which is what we have done in this administration.”
Bullcrap. Can someone please publish his signing statements on the McCin anti Torture bill. The track record is when he has an issue about a bill, there is no cooperation from the executive branch. That is against the law. If you ask the Navy JAG Lawyer that is up on charges right now about Guantanamo, he will clearly state as he has in the past that torture continues. Torture extracted testimony is still used in their sad excuse for a US court. The Hamden case that went to the Supreme Court found in favor of Hamden. The president did not have the power to set up an entirely separate justice system within the US. Then the Repugnans passed legislation to grant Bush that capacity under war powers. That legislation needs to be rammed back down their throats. It was the first time I know of in history the legislative branch reversed a Supreme Court decision. Hamden is an example of who we have in captivity. He was Osama’s taxi driver. He was not an Al Qaeda member. Then you have Padilla’s case that by time they got to court he would have confessed to anything as an alternative to more waterboarding and torture. They thoroughly broke him to the point of insanity.
The premise that torture is based on is that harsher treatment yields better results. The track record is that we do not have that many high ranking terrorists that know anything at all, and by time the goon squad is done with prisoners, they will confess to anything, whether they are guilty or not.
Invading Iraq without UN sanction violated international law. Torture of prisoners qualifies under international law as a war crime. Bush and Cheney richly deserve to go in front of an international “Nuremborg” type court for their war crimes and violation of international law.
Okay all,
Now that you have articulated the case, what are the REALISITIC solutions? We already know the Congress will do nothing, so we can’t rely on those people. The Supreme Court will find a way to exonerate Bush et al. I guess my question is how do we depose the King? The only other way I can think of without violent revolution is to amass our money, hire a large team of attorneys, and file criminal lawsuits against Bush and his Administration. I know this process will be lengthy, and perhaps ineffective. But what other solutions do we have? This is where I wish RichM would weigh in because if I remember correctly, he used to be a prosecuter. Your thoughts RichM and others who post here?
Any sovereign government that is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions could file a lawsuit against Bush administration officials for a large number of war-crimes at the Hague.
Evidently, this is the kind of logic the Bush followers swallow all the time –
Let’s challenge Bush to prove to us that this isn’t torture . . . let’s say, any press meeting we can waterboard him, etal and when it’s over, let’s see if he tells us again that this stuff isn’t torture.
Who are the bigger idiots, those who tell these lies or those who believe them — ????
Seriously, what so wrong about holding an alleged suspect’s head under water until he or she nearly drowns, over and over again, until said alleged suspect either “tells them what they want to know” or dies?
It’s just like going for a dip down at the local swimming hole with a group of bad apples in need of some stress relief. Late night frat boy stuff, no biggie.
Rumor has it the Decider will announce a new name for waterboarding this week: Confessional Baptism for Evil Doers.
I’m surprised why they’re even bothered to be defensive about such an open “secret”. In effect… so what??
If the country had an effective government, instead a cosied-up, play-by-the-rules, some-what elected dictatorship run by the same bunch of people playing blue-hat/red-hat, it would actually matter. OMG, the executive-branch is caught abusing powers and flagrantly engaging in illegal activity! Wow! What’s the Pelosi-gang (a majority in congress) going to do about it?!? EXACTLY!!
I’m a Patriot!
I’m a Patriot!
I’m a Patriot!
I’m a Patriot!
LMFAO..
With so much “hot air” in DC, does anyone ever wonder why we started an oil-war? Why not just build more balloons?