Will this be America's version of the Amritsar Massacre? The atrocity that lost Asia to the West.

Mr. Fisk is one of the most experienced and intelligent journalists in the greater ME region, one of the few westerners who actually know what is going on. This is just the latest killing of Afghan civilians that have been going on for years now. The tired old excuses and euphemisms are as irrational and disgusting as ever.

How can Obushma sleep when his actions have caused such deaths?

I wonder what he threatened Karzai with....hmmm.

powerless President Hamid Karzai sounded like a beacon of goodness yesterday appealing for "a higher platform of morality" in waging war, that we should conduct war as "better human beings".

This sounds like something Stephen Colbert would mockingly say on his show.

I got a laugh just imagining that Mordechai, Karzai the puppet installed by the Empire and a former BigOil Exec, what a coincidence eh?

Robert Fisk is one of the few heroes of our time. His photos of the children who died because of US bombs are amazing. Anyone who has not seen them, has missed an opportunity to see the real cost of war.

Thank you Robert Fisk.

I remember in 1984 when I first saw the photograph of a teenager(the Afghan Girl) in a refugee camp in Pakistan. According to the article about her in National Geographic 2004, Sharbat Gula's marriage was arranged when she was 13 or 16. She rises before sunrise and prays, fetches water from a stream,cooks cleans, does laundry, and cares for her three daughters, who are the center of her life. Her brother says "Sharbat has never known a happy day in her life, except perhaps the day she was married. Many people who saw her photo in 1984 were able to feel compassion for her and other refugees of the Russian conflict with Afghanistan. Her beautiful green eyes pierced through our hearts and people offered to help the refugees.How can we keep killing Afghan innocent civilians and causing refugee increased suffering?

When politicians tell us that terrorist hate us for our freedom maybe terrorist mean our freedom to kill them indiscriminately. When Sharbat was asked:"if she ever felt safe?" she answered"No, but life under the Taliban was better. At least there was peace and order." War is not the answer.

International law? We don't need no stinking international law. H'aint we got the power?

The reality is that international law forbids...

-------------------

What is this thing you refer to?...International Law?

These words have to no meaning in my language.

Fisk writes "international law forbids armies from firing wildly in crowded tenements and bombing wildly into villages - even when enemy forces are present - but that went by the board in our 1991 bombing of Iraq and in Bosnia and in NATO's Serbia war and in our 2001 Afghan adventure and in 2003 in Iraq."

Actually, I would say it first went by the board in World War II, in places like Nanking, London, Stalingrad, Dresden, and Hiroshima. And let us not leave Hanoi and the Ho Chi Minh trail corridor through Laos and Cambodia off the list.

But Fisk is absolutely correct, as a matter of existing international law. It is indeed patently illegal for high tech air power weaponry, artillery, or even assault weapon armed infantry forces to focus death and destruction upon civilians in a war zone, even when there are enemy forces nearby. Not only is it illegal and immoral, it is also very stupid.

Half a lifetime ago, I actually spent some time in grad school seminars while studying in England with a few Rand corp types - disciples of Curtis LeMay, Robert McNamara, Herman Khan, and the like, who were intellectually fixated upon the military justifications for the use of air power on a massive scale. These were some pretty spooky folks. But they had the credentials and the gravitas to be considered great strategic thinkers by the powers-that-be in government service and academe, so who was I to get my two cents worth of dissent taken seriously? Back then, at the height of the Cold War, everybody was thinking about the unthinkable.

Anyway, most of these geniuses rationalized raining down high explosives from on high as a form of war by attrition: decimate the whole society's infrastructure along with its military forces, and eventually what's left of the surviving leadership will see the handwriting on the wall and capitulate to the clearly superior force. We all know how well that theory worked on the Vietnamese. Neither did it work on the British, the Russians, the Germans, or (a somewhat closer call here) the Japanese in World War II.

The prevailing consensus among military historian think tank types really was that bombing people, and threatening to bomb people back to the Stone Age, simply does not work. If the actual goal is to achieve the political end of getting one's foe to capitulate ("break their will to fight"), the use of air power that kills civilians is counter-productive. People on the receiving end instead hunker down, lick their wounds, regroup as best they can, and fight on.

A more nuanced, intellectually polished justification for bombing civilians - even for saturation bombing campaigns - is a direct byproduct of the Allied forces World War II experience, and it goes like this:

The real goal of bombing is to make the adversary's air force leave the ground, come up, and try to defend their cities and civilian population. The superior air force eventually destroys the inferior one. Then the stage is set for the infantry to move in and finish the job the conventional way, with your ground forces no longer vulnerable to significant enemy attack from the air. In grandiose sweep, this might be said to be an accurate account of how Germany ultimately was defeated, with Hitler finally going down in his bunker while Berlin fell.

Air power, thus conceived, is primarily a means towards the military end of securing the land with ground forces. Well, okay. If this is what the big shot strategic thinkers actually think, then what does it say about the use of aerial bombing, by drones or otherwise, in Afghanistan?

Last time I looked, neither the Taliban nor Al Qaeda nor any of the tribal warlords nor any other insurgent faction fighting US/NATO occupation forces has an air force. That gets us back to Plan A - the theory that has never historically worked. You don't get guerillas to lay down their arms by bombing their loved ones' homes, much less win anybody's hearts and minds that way.

What current US policy is doing in the Afghanistan/Pakistan tribal regions with high tech air power is illegal, immoral, and very fundamentally stupid.

Bill from Saginaw

A nation that will drop bombs on Children in order to advance its agenda is no more moral, no more civilized then a people who will allow their children to be bombed in order to advance their agenda.

as g.markley posts in the susskind story elsewhere today, "there will come a time and it will be terrible, you mark my words." and i might add, we will deservedly pay that price.

Sounds a lot like another military we all know and love, yes?

U.S. officials believe Taliban, not airstrikes caused civilian deaths
By Nancy Montgomery, Stars and Stripes

Mideast edition, Friday, May 8, 2009

KABUL, Afghanistan — Civilian casualties in Farah province earlier this week were more likely the work of Taliban killers who orchestrated a series of events leading up to U.S. bombings, rather than the bombs themselves, U.S. military authorities said Thursday.

Even while a joint Afghan-U.S. investigating team was entering the district of Bala Buluk — where some reports said up to 120 people were killed overnight Monday and early Tuesday — U.S. authorities challenged the idea that it was the close air support of four strafing runs and 13 bombs that killed the civilians.

Although U.S. officials say at least 25 insurgents were killed in the western Afghanistan province, the number of civilians who died remains unknown.

"The reports have varied wildly from the get-go. We’ve heard everything from one small boy killed or nine individuals injured to up to more than 160," said Capt. Elizabeth Mathias, a U.S. forces spokeswoman. "So many numbers are pure speculation."

But, she said, "We do believe many of those individuals were indeed [killed] by Taliban fighters. We had intelligence sources suggesting this a day ago. We’re trying to determine exactly what happened, and who did what."

Civilian deaths have caused outrage and concern in Afghanistan, complicating the NATO war effort. The report of what could be the worst such incident to date comes just as 21,000 more U.S. troops are deploying here in an effort to defeat the Taliban.

More than 2,000 Afghan civilians were killed last year by both coalition forces and the Taliban, the United Nations has said.

"It’s a very distinct event to highlight what [the troops] are up against," Mathias said. "The enemy claims to do these things on behalf of Islam but which are against every religion. They have no qualms about killing innocent women and children."

Col. Greg Julian, the top U.S. spokesman in Afghanistan, said that there were unconfirmed reports that villagers in the area said Taliban fighters herded women and children into houses, tossed in grenades, then blamed the coalition for the deaths.

Yet the carnage, military officials say, appears to have been orchestrated by the Taliban. According to the U.S. scenario, the Taliban performed a public beheading perhaps in order to draw in and ambush Afghan police.

The police, overpowered by an unknown number of Taliban, called for back-up from U.S. Marines, who in turn called for close air support, Mathias said.

"I believe from the information we’ve received so far, the entire event was planned to create this effect," Julian said. "We don’t rule out the possibility that civilians were also collateral damage from these bombs."

The New York Times reported that villagers reached by telephone said many were killed by aerial bombing. One villager told the Times planes began dropping bombs an hour after the fighting stopped, and six houses in one village had been destroyed.

The newspaper reported that "villagers, crazed with grief, were collecting mangled bodies in blankets and shawls and piling them on three tractors."

The event sparked a riot outside the Farah governor’s office, according to The Associated Press, in which local police fired on rock-throwing protesters, injuring one.

An investigation team, including an Afghan general and a U.S. general, were dispatched to the province but Julian said it was unclear whether any forensic evidence could be produced to indicate whether grenades or bombs or other weapons caused the deaths.

Last August, civilians in Azizabad were killed in a U.S. action; Afghan officials and the United Nations say 90 were killed. U.S. officials said it was 33. Whatever the actual number, the incident prompted top U.S. commanders to order a review of airstrikes and to work more closely with the Afghans in coordinating the missions.

"We’ve done all these things about informing commanders about proportionality and restraint and withdrawing to fight another day," Julian said. "Ultimately, we trust the judgment of our junior leaders on the ground, in contact, to make the best decisions they can."

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=62553

How would "dyingforyourrights" respond were Iraqi troops patrolling the streets in the usa?

People who criticize international laws, etcetera, criticize U.S. law. They should learn what the U.S. Constitution specifies about this topic and if they don't accept the Constitution being right in this regard, then they should find another country to live in. But no, they won't do that; just like their hypocrite and criminal leaders of the present and past U.S. Administrations, who are traitors, etcetera. They have no honest regard for the Constitution, instead of only disregarding the international laws, etcetera, and choose to pretend they can continue to exist in the USA and profit from it as if they're not hypocrites and traitors.

When that truth appears to them in the mirror, then they run to watch disney, instead of facing the truth about themselves and holding themselves accountable as true, real [citizens] need to do.

"Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner, let alone civilian]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause... for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country."

- George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

good points robert fisk..

"We are always right and when we are not, we (sometimes) apologise and
then we blame it all on the "terrorists".

"And terror, terror, terror. Something else I notice. Innocent or
"terrorists", civilians or Taliban, always it is the Muslims who are
to blame."

the omnipresent propaganda program (we are always right) has been
effective these past 220 years, seeing cities bombed by US aircraft-
maimed bodies - has become happenstance, a part of our collective imagery our
nomenclature. (turn on the tv, quick photo of bodies, a few words and
numbers before a hairspray commercial, dinner). another cliche - disturbing.

the number i heard this week that stuck out for me was 1.8 million. 1.8 million US serviceman have served in iraq/afghanastan. many of whom have to deal w/ traumatic experiences and prolonged exposure to a violent military culture.

dyingforyourrights - wow - do you feel better now ? did you always
believe that murdering people was a way to resolve conflict - or was
this emotion/belief cultivated by your time spent in the military ?
i hope you seek therapy - best of luck.

stop the suffering in asia and in the US.
bring all of the troops home now...

...peace...

as i have previously posted, our mic targets the young, the naive, and obviously, the undereducated. sadly, our tax dollars support this.

dyingforyourrights, be all you can be. you swallowed the hype. now live it.

you suddenly seem to be spending much time on this site. what's the matter, a slow day in iraq? or is your eight-hour shift over?

But, she said, "We do believe many of those individuals were indeed [killed] by Taliban fighters. We had intelligence sources suggesting this a day ago. We’re trying to determine exactly what happened, and who did what."
_____________________________________

"[I]ntelligence sources"-- Is "Curveball" on another tour of duty? Has US intelligence (pardon the oxymoron) checked them out with Judith Miller?

· Yr Obd't Servant

The justification for the invasion of Iraq was based on lies, yet soldiers like "dyingforyourrights" have been so understandably traumatized by their experience, it is impossible for them to comprehend how deceived and betrayed they have been by their government.

Dyingforyourthoughts is like tens of thousands of other folks who volunteered to join the army under a false pretense...
The experiences he has had to suffer have stripped him of his humanity, confused, and full of hatred...
If he doesn't get shot, commit suicide, or be redeployed to AfPak, he will be home in a few months...
The PTSD will drive him to alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, or a random act of public violence...
If he is courageous and fortunate, he will get mess and counselling and only have to live with the memories...
This is the legacy of war... And universal soldiers are to blame...
What if the corporate globalists had a war and nobody came...?

Dear Dyingforyourthoughts.

I believe you have been used and abused by the war machine. Soldiers are often good young people who need jobs and who believe in service and loyalty. Those good qualities are exploited in stupid wars that do no good but make money for weapons makers and turn people against us all over the world. Then when something goes wrong, like torture, only those at the bottom or on the front lines are blamed.

I would like to see a country in which you could be trained for peaceful skilled jobs and your desire for service could be applied to help people right here. I hope you will find a way out of anger and toward forgiveness and love. I will be thinking of you.

Joe

dyingforyourrights May 7th, 2009 9:17 pm

You are getting a "little" carried away my friend. Two years ago April first, a friend told me about this site. He said it was a place where you could have an intelligent discussion about various world events with open minded people. I should have known something was amiss when he was a little overly enthusiastic in trying to get me to check this URL out on April 1st, April fools day.

In order to preserve your sanity I would suggest you erase this URL from your bookmarks. The people posting to this blog live in an enclosed cosmos, all unto themselves and unless you sing the tune the choir sings, you are vilified, called all sorts of vile names, if they reply to your posts they put words in your mouth that you never said and if you back up your statements with the URL pointing to where they are wrong they say the site lies, only they tell the truth.

I post occasionally to this blog basically to rile up the inhabitants, I can just visualize them pounding away on their keyboards, froth dripping from their mouths trying in vain to post a cohesive intelligent reply to one of my posts. All they manage to do is call me vile names and leave me scratching my head wondering where they got that info from, certainly not from my post. It's fun, it's a diversion from the real world, it helps me keep my sanity knowing if it wasn't for the internet these crazies would be loose running around on the street scaring little children.