Israel at 60: The Cost of US Support
Israel’s 60th anniversary is an opportune occasion to question why the U.S. government offers unlimited support to a country that persistently and routinely violates principles that Americans hold sacred.
The U.S. government finances an illegal military occupation in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. Since October 1973, total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. What does this aid buy? Illegal Jewish-only settlements built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinian towns and villages encircled by walls more monstrous in most places than the Berlin wall. Israeli checkpoints and roadblocks between Palestinian towns that bring the normal movement of people and goods to a standstill and constitute daily humiliations. Gaza sealed and under siege, with food and fuel withheld. Since the second intifada started in September 2000, at least 4,719 Palestinians have been killed and 32,213 wounded.
Israel’s strategy seems to be to make life so unlivable for Palestinians that those with options will leave, and those without options are controlled by the Jewish state. Is this a strategy that Americans can support?
Israel’s supporters excuse Israel’s appalling violations of international law and human rights by insisting that it is a democracy and thus shares a lot with the United States. But that is not true.
Israel distinguishes between citizenship rights, such as the right to vote, which is available to non-Jewish citizens of the state, and nationality rights, which are reserved for Jews. This is not a feature of democracy as we know it.
Several laws have been enacted in Israel whose intention is clearly to maintain Jewish numerical superiority and to reinforce the Jewish character of the state, all of which belie the claim that Israel is a democracy. Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, has identified more than 20 laws in Israel that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel by working the Jewish character of the state into the text of the law. Israel defines “public good” in ethno-religious terms; lands expropriated from Palestinians for the “public good” benefit Jewish citizens only. The 20 percent of the population that is Muslim and Christian are regarded as a demographic threat. Obsession over the ethnic and religious composition of a country is also not a typical characteristic of democratic societies.
Support for Israel is garnered under false pretenses and enforced through coercive tactics. Americans should consider the effect of these strong-arm tactics on our public life.
A small but powerful lobby has had an inordinate influence on the executive and legislative branches of the government, on the media, and on our public culture. Neither a former president and Nobel Peace Prize winner like Jimmy Carter, or establishment professors from prestigious universities like John Mearsheimer (University of Chicago) and Stephen Walt (Harvard University), are immune from charges of anti-semitism if they question Israel’s policies.
These assaults on the personal integrity of people who express non-mainstream political views has had a profoundly corrosive effect on free speech and public debate.
Members of Congress of both parties accept pro-Israel political action committee money and in return, they support and initiate legislation in support of Israel.
Both the public and the media have been trained to accept without question the unseemly spectacle of presidential candidates and elected officials who swear allegiance to a foreign country, as though this should inspire the trust of U.S. voters.
Israel’s illegal policies toward Palestinians and its neighbors have been the subject of more than 65 U.N. resolutions. Israel routinely ignores General Assembly and Security Council resolutions, and its intransigence is defended by the United States. Supporting Israel puts the United States at odds with most of the people of the world, and it also means that the U.S. government grows accustomed to defending violations of international law. Yet neither Israel nor the United States is above the law.
Pro-Israel organizations and individuals have led the campaign promoting anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bigotry in this country. Generalizations and smears that would be easily identified as bigotry if African Americans or Latinos were the subject trigger no objections when they are made about Arabs and Muslims.
Palestinians in growing numbers are demanding equal rights for all residents of Mandate Palestine.
Americans can hardly oppose this demand while at the same time claiming to be a beacon of freedom and democracy for all peoples.
Ida Audeh is a Palestinian who grew up in the West Bank and now works as an editor in Boulder.
© 2008 The E.W. Scripps Co.
Israel itself is a crime against humanity. This is a truth that Europe and the US can’t bring themselves to face, at least openly, because they were the ones responsible for the crime in the first place.
Vote as my name says only pro AMERICAN in Nov. Stop the Liebermans and the rest then go after the lobbyist who support non American interests then maybe then America will get back to the great nation it was.
“Members of Congress of both parties accept pro-Israel political action committee money and in return, they support and initiate legislation in support of Israel.”
Interesting racket.
Every year American taxpayers give Israel $Billions while they enjoy a European standard of living along with national health care and affordable higher education which are unavailable to millions of Americans.
In return for this “foreign aid” the Israelis then corrupt our democratic process by dumping large sums of dirty money into our political system. Freedom of speech in our media and various institutions are also devastated.
The long term policies resulting from this twisted system have now resulted in deadly “blowback” such as 9/11.
And it was none other than pro-Israeli hawks within our DOD that led the charge into Iraq which has all but destroyed the American economy while placing our international standing and future in doubt.
And if you are wondering what “God” would have to say about all of this, just ask McCain and John Hagee.
After reading this article on the Guardian in UK:
http://www.guardianweekly.co.uk/?page=editorial&id=583&catID=9
I am very sickened by what happened in 1948. After all the atrocity found in Germany, how could the World allow this travisty to take place? Displacing innocent people from their homes for Jewish people? Why was this even allowed?
It is sick to say the least. Imagine, giving up your own home to a Jew who thinks they are better than you. They do think this way by the way. Gods chosen. Always remember that Catholics,protestants, lutherans..the jewish people are BETTER Than you. This terrible atrocity that was forced on the Palestinian people could have happened in the US, after all, you are GENTILES, and not God’s chosen, most blessed people.
Interesting web page to look at is
IF Americans only knew….
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Perhaps this will open someone’s eyes !!!
criticalthinktank,
the same atrocity has been happening here in the USA for the last 500 years. Just ask the Native Americans
Thank you ladybug for pointing out the obvious:
The author is not telling the truth when she says,”…U.S. government offers unlimited support to a country that persistently and routinely violates principles that Americans hold sacred.”
Au contraire, we have the same principles!
“Just ask the Native Americans”
Alison Weir ex-editor of an American newspaper in Northern California created http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
A person who through her intellect and curiosity for the truth has created a web page to try and expose the truth to anyone who cares to know it and is unafraid to speak the truth…
Please look an an interview done by and available on You tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDHNNtyjfts
For the life of me, I can’t understand what would warrant such lop-sided support for a country that offers us nothing in practical terms, like oil. In addition to spying on the U.S. & attacking a U.S. warship, that resulted in casualties.
The Jews understand their own history perfectly well; they are roundly disliked and even hated in most places where they are. They may be tolerated . . . but not really liked and certainly not admired. The question the Israelis had better start asking themselves ASAP is this: given the staggering and ultimately unbearable price Americans are paying to support Israel, do you seriously think this will go on forever? At some point, say, the economic collapse of this nation, the gentile majority in this country will instantly bid the Israelis farewell; and the politicians of the Republican and Democratic parties, almost all of whom are opportunists and sociopaths, will flash their shit eating grins and say ta-ta, Israel. I got my next election to think about. AIPAC will not be able to pull any more rabbits out of Uncle Sam’s red, white and blue top hat. Are you paying attention, Israel?
My message to “Isareal” on it’s 60th “anniversary”. Happy birthday you land stealing jerks! May you not see 61!
Ladybug, Yes, we did the same to the Native Americans but what is your point? It is justified? That others should ‘Steal’ land? So, what is your point? Is it justification for Israelis actions and the world sanctioning it? Why not have given half of Germany to the Jews for their New Israel, that would have been more justified.
Did the nazis create this monster? Or did this monster create the nazis?
Criticalthintank you said: “This terrible atrocity that was forced on the Palestinian people could have happened in the US”
My point is that it happened in America way before than in Palestine. And please, how am I going to condone those actions? Come on now, we are on the same side, don’t get all upset with me.
And how did you infere I was justifying Israel’s actions? By pointing out the immorality of how this country was founded?
forextrader
“My message to “Isareal” on it’s 60th “anniversary”. Happy birthday you land stealing jerks! May you not see 61!”
At least forextrader isn’t afraid to say it - Genocide against Palestinians, bad. Genocide against Jews, good. Is that what this board has come to?
I see a whole lot of whining about how evil the Jews are but no serious solutions offerred. Is there anyone here who realistically expects that the Israelis are just going to march into the sea just to please you?
I think what the Israelis are doing is a crime. I also think that the Palestinians shoot themselves in the foot at every opportunity. Is there no two-state solution? Are we just going to keep repeating the same old useless polemics over and over?
Perhaps the solution is to create a Union of the Middle East, like the European Union. This will never happen while the oil lasts, of course, because there are far too many greedy people on all sides who would not hesitate to start a war if there were profit in it. When the oil is gone, a Union may be possible. It may even be necessary if the region is to avoid fighting over its dwindling supplies of fresh water.
The Union could well be a pipe dream, considering all the ages-old tribal and religious conflicts riving the region. However, if we could somehow raise everyone there to First World living standards, the influence of tribe and religion may fade as much as it as faded in the West. If that happens, a lasting peace may be possible.
Mordechai Shiblikov - I think you have it right, though the problem is time. While I too predict Americans will eventually demand Israel be removed form the tit, it may not happen soon enough to save the Palestinians.
As for kendpotter’s claim that no serious solutions are offered, I have to say this sounds like typical Israel-speak and is just another way of saying there are “no partners for peace.”
Aside from the fact that this issue has already been adjudicated and Israel is in violation of international laws delineating their boundaries, they ignore these.
The Arab states have offered peace — full peace and recognition — several times, based on Israel returning to its original borders. Israel has consistently refused.
I’m sure this means nothing to you, no more than the fact that Palestinians have been offering truces regularly, only to have those turned down as well.
No, I’m sure that you will continue to say none of the Arabs can be trusted. This has been Israel’s theme song, and will continue to be. Prop up a Palestinian leader, then knock him down and claim there’s no one to negotiate with. Then do it again. And again. Meanwhile, continue to expand illegal settlements, kill anyone who arises as a leader, etc.
There are simple solutions. Israel must obey international law. Israel must return to it’s pre-1967 borders.
It’s not complicated. But of course that has nothing to do with it. Israel wants all the land. Period.
America as an empire “has to” give unqualified support to the world-as-conceived in the Jewish Old Testament because “unqualified” is the magic word: there is no question possible of what we are doing and who we think we are, period. It has been underwriting the criminal imperialism of the last 500 years: only we matter, only we have a right to be violent on behalf of “God and progress,” everybody wants to be like us or they should at least have the decency to “disappear” and stop contradicting our truth with their own happiness. That is the soul of “Monogenesis,” the establishment doctrine since before Columbus stumbled into America, that there was only “one Creation,” ours by our god, and all the rest are either malformed versions of us or longing to be us. This sanctimonious shell-game helped and still helps too many people feel good about doing evil and is still the glue-and-tar that holds the world’s last empire together. WELCOME TO THE POST-COLONIAL PLANET, AMERICA AND ISRAEL—Now we’ll really see how “moral, free and brave” you are….
critical - it would be nice if, for once, people stopped lumping all Jews together as if were some monolithic block who all think alike and act alike and feel the exact say way about everything. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised since there are only about 13.3 million of us in the world and people in this great country of ours routinely do the same to about a billion Muslims.
Many Jews are openly critical against the State of Israel and work tirelessly to try and work for a just solution to the issue. (Most of the Jews in Israel are against the current actions of Israel for God’s sake, but oh no, to you were just a bunch of elitist assholes who walk around lording our “chosenness” over the rest of you gentiles.) Many of us also believe what countless of rabbis have taught us: that being the “chosen people” of God means simply that WE chose to enter into a covenant and receive a message from God. Many rabbinical sources will tell you that the true meaning of the concept of the “chosen people” has little to do with God supposedly choosing us, but has everything to do with US choosing God. Lumping us all together in some Likud-loving mass does nothing to actually solve the problem and insults those of us who want to help the situation.
Tbaltic - please tell me you are not suggesting that somehow Jewish actions brought about the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust?
The Middle East must be decalred a Nuclear Fee zone and lsrael must be made to give up the bomb in return for recognition and a non-agressve treaty by it’s neighboring states.
BreeMass,
As an ardent anti-Zionist, let me be the first to agree with you. We can not lump all Jews together and blame them as a unit for what Israel does. Millions of us Americans oppose our government’s actions, yet look where we are.
Daily I receive correspondence from Gush Shalom, B’Tselem, Jewish Voices for Peace, and a several other Jewish peace groups. I reiterate that some of the most passionate and eloquent voices for Palestinian rights belong to those in the Jewish (both American and Israeli) community.
That being said, we rarely hear these voices in our American Zionist controlled (yes, controlled, not over-represented) media. When did you last see Uri Avnery on TV here? Me neither. Neve Gordon? Amira Hass?
On the other hand, I think it is possible to cut the Jewish community a bit too much slack. We must remember that Sharon, already labeled a war criminal by none other than Abba Eban, won by a landslide. Israelis knew he opposed any and every peace plan or conference, and that he would continue his brutal and murderous policies. They overwhelmingly chose him to represent them. All major Jewish organizations here did as well.
Jews in America too seldom raise their voices, although that is changing. Still, it is difficult to name very many high-profile Jews in entertainment or media or government that will speak to the abuses of the Israeli government. I would appreciate of a list of these.
While I realize Jews are not monolithic, and J Street offers some hope of making a bit of noise, more must be done for people like yourself to disassociate themselves clearly and loudly from the Likudnik thuggery that the world more and more sees as a “Jewish thing.”
In order to understand the illogical and lop-sided support that the US has for Israel, it is necessary to understand how deeply the Jews have insinuated themselves into the US gov’t. I was shocked to see how many are in GWB’s cabinet, some of whom hold dual citizenship with Israel.
http:/www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.com
HTF do you post hot links in this forum?
Just check it out. Go to www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm
Opeluboy, thanks for your comments. One thing I will say is that being a Jew who opposes current Israeli action, I feel a bit like I’m sure many Muslims did and do when pressed to disassociate themselves from radical Muslims - I’m screaming at the top of my lungs and nobody is listening. I am a member of various Jewish-American peace organizations, I write letters to the editors and call my Congressmen. I demonstrate, I march I protest, I speak up in my community and my temple and yet you stand here and tell me I must do more to disassociate myself. So my question to you, and I mean this quite seriously, what else is it you would have me do to satisfactorily “disassociate” myself.
Jews in America raise their voices all the time, but once again, nobody is listening. Israelis voted for Sharon because the alternative was the Likud and, for better or for worse, it was Sharon who negotiated the Gaza withdrawal, a plan backed by a vast majority of Israelis. They hoped for more of the same as it seemed that Ariel Sharon may actually getting pragmatic in his old age. Sharon was much much better than Netanyahu, a man who supports the absolute takeover of Gaza and the West Bank and the expulsion of Palestinians from these areas. This is not exactly a black or white issue.
As far as the media is concerned, I would like to know any MSM news outlet that regularly invites ANYONE who is a peacenik, regardless of who they are advocating for. This is not just an issue of Jews and non-Jews, this is an interest of corporate media vs the rest of us and Israeli/Palestinian issues get just as lost in the shuffle as anything else.
Shouldn’t the American Israel Public Affairs Committee - AIPAC be required to register under the mandatory Foreign Agent’s Registration Act of 1938 that requires all lobbyist
representing or lobbying on bahalf of any foreign interest or governments to register as a foreign agent with the Justice Department?
Aipac’s foes have repeatedly called for the lobbying powerhouse to be registered as a foreign agent. In the mid-1970s, a prominent Democratic senator from Arkansas, William Fulbright, led such a campaign. In 1988, former senior CIA official Victor Marchetti filed a complaint with the Department of Justice, alleging that a thorough study he conducted of Aipac’s conduct demonstrated that under the law, the pro-Israel lobby should have been registered as a foreign agent. The complaint was rejected.
Violation of the relevant law is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. But in almost all cases of suspected violations, subjects received an oral or written warning, and in some instances have been hit with relatively small fines.
This Act forbids all such registered foreign agents to be involved with any domestic politics and barred giving campaign contributions to any Political Parties or to Election Campaigns or to Representatives!
Isn’t it time to start enforcing the LAWS of the United States and start marginalizing this powerful foreign lobby group that has hijacked our foreign policy? Isn’t it time to drain this sewer?
buminfl - this phenomenon of US support for Israel has more to do with Christian Zionism than any Jewish infiltration of the White House. The support started back in 1948 when no Jews were in the White House because Truman was an evangelical who believed the Biblical prophecy that Israel must be restored and the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem before the second coming of Christ could occur. In fact, Christian Zionism has a long history in the US dating back to the seventeenth century when there were no Jews in the US - or very few. This has little to do with any sort of like for the Jews. The same prophecy says we must convert or go to hell. Not my friends, thank you very much.
I won’t deny that Jews are in powerful positions in the US, but US supposrt has just as much to do with Christian evangelical prophecy as it does undue influence by Jews in the government.
American law sets two chief tests for defining an organization or a publicist as an “agent of a foreign principal.”
The financial one clearly does not apply to Aipac, which does
not receive money from Israel.
The other test has to do with the nature of the relationship between the American advocacy organization and the foreign government in question. According to the law, any person or group that acts “at the order, request, or under the direction or control of a foreign principal” has to register with the Justice Department as a foreign agent.
Although Aipac staffers are known to be exceedingly careful in their dealings with official representatives of Israel, so as not to violate the law, there have been incidents in the past in which Israeli officials gave directions to Aipac to act in one way or another, said former Aipac employees speaking on condition of anonymity.
Aipac, he said, “doesn’t advocate on behalf of the government of Israel, but the nation of Israel.” Also, he pointed out, the law does allow for a certain degree of coordination with a foreign government. Therefore, “a substantial independence [of the lobbying group] is all that’s needed. Not total independence,” Susman said.
Aipac’s lawyer, Nathan Lewin, noted that the organization “has prevailed in prior cases, when attempts were made to make them register as a foreign agent.” According to Lewin, Aipac officials “prevailed on the proposition that they are an agent entirely of American citizens who have a particular interest in improving American-Israeli relations.”
Jewish activists say that even if the likelihood is low that a legal attempt to compel Aipac to register as a foreign agent will be successful, public focus on the issue could be damaging. “Any open debate of this issue could be damaging,” said a Jewish communal leader. “Questions of loyalty will resurface, and this time such questions will have to do with the chief pro-Israel lobby in America.
Each of our current Presidential Candidates were asked to address AIPAC and unless this super powerful lobbyist group is absolutely convinced that the candidate promises to maintain their continous support for Israel, chances are that candidates campaign would never get off the ground! It is almost grotesque to see how each candidate is trying to out do the other with their relentless support for Israel……..
The first sentence says: “Israel’s 60th anniversary is an opportune occasion to question why the U.S. government offers unlimited support to a country that persistently and routinely violates principles that Americans hold sacred.”
WHAT???? As I have said before, America was founded on genocide and ethnic cleansing of Ntive Americans. What Israel is doing is genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. To me it all looks pretty logical.
Please read the true transcript of what Bush meant to say to the Knesset. You’ll wish you hadn’t!
P.S. It’s on my blog which might be rendered shortly!
The state of Israel faces a grave danger to its continued existence. It is not, however, Arab states or Palistinian groups that endanger that entity. It is the continued ties between Israel’s ruling right-wing clique and its ties to the hated Bush, right wing regime here, that are increasing the crisis that state is facing.
Some of the writers (above) alluded to the growing awareness that the American people are developing as to the adverse affect that this relationship is having on working people here in the USA. The trillions of US tax dollars going to Israel are doing nothing but fueling their illegal occupation of Arab lands. Meanwhile, we’re told that “there’s no money for health care, housings, etc.,” or anything for the people. People are making that connection here!
Recently I worked on Congressman Dennis Kucinch’s reelection campaign. Dennis was strongly backed by organized labor, his real base here in Cleveland. His opponent was bankrolled, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dolllars, by AIPAC. (This was published by AIPAC)! Dennis’ crime, in the eyes of the right-wing Zionists, was publicly stating that the US foreign policy should be more even handed, that Israel should pull out of the territories they’re illegally occupying and that we should work for peace in the middle east.
Dennis won big, very strong union support! Former progressive congresswoman Mary Rose Oakar is expected to run agasinst Dennis’ opponent. People in this area got a very good lesson in what this poisionist relationship means to them, personally. AIPAC showed Israel’s face to be that of Bush/the corporations/war, the opposite of what the American people want.
This absurd situation can’t last forever! The majority of the American people AND the majority of the ISRAELI people want peace. Unless these progressive majorities can exert their strength and take over the governments in these nations, then disaster is the future for us both!!
There are 1,600 “refuseniks” - Israeli soldiers who refuse to contribute to the brutalization and oppression of the Palestinian people. Never hear about these soldiers on MSM. I learned about them in a documentary aired on Canadian TV - the CBC. These refuseniks are willing to face jail - and some of them have done so already.
It seems that the Hebrews and European Jews show little gratitude for the gift of Palestine. They do not seem grateful. Of course, they also throw the Ten Commandments out the window regarding the people of Gaza.
Adolf Hitler warned the world never to have Palestine under Hebrew/Jewish control precisely for these chain of events that is happening there for the last 60 years. What a shame that Hitler prediction proved correct huh? Greedy racists the Israelis are. I am sorry, but let us not beat around the bush here.
The Israelis feel entitled to land and money because they are supposedly the chosen people of God only because the Jewish God says so? That is brilliant and original thinking…lol
The Jews being responsible for Nazism and the Holocaust? Well…given that Nazism came about as a reaction to general frustration toward the upper-class of Europe (the European Jews) as well as France occupying Germany for more than 125 years, I would have to say…sort of. That is a different topic altogether though.
The solution is of course a one-state solution, as many sane minded people of Jewish/Israeli/Palestinian extraction have been saying for some time.
But of substantial interest at the moment is the fierce propaganda war. The 60th celebration is turning into a propaganda disaster as the truth keeps coming out of the cracks. At the same time, the lobby has been forced into the most bizarre of denials and lies, and straightforward attempts to censor those who speak the truth.
Meanwhile, the US leadersip in toto is oblivious to the subterranean upheaval.
“…what else is it you would have me do to satisfactorily “disassociate” myself.”
See a plastic surgeon for a nose job.
“I see a whole lot of whining about how evil the Jews are but no serious solutions offered. Is there anyone here who realistically expects that the Israelis are just going to march into the sea just to please you?
I think what the Israelis are doing is a crime. I also think that the Palestinians shoot themselves in the foot at every opportunity. Is there no two-state solution? Are we just going to keep repeating the same old useless polemics over and over?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would like to respond to this contribution to this forum if I may.
No sir, I/we do not hold out any hope of the zionist jews marching into the sea any time soon just to please us. I perhaps can offer a simple solution though. Why not allow all the Palestinians to return to their homes, make the jews stop murdering the Palestinians,pay reparations and return living in peace just like the jews, Muslims, and Christians did before western governments decided to steal the land from the inhabitants that lived there before 1947. But as you are surely aware, the zionist jews will not accept this and will not stop terrorizing, killing, and stealing the land of Palestinians until this country makes them . The zionist jews are a terrorist organization and israel is a rogue state and must be treated as such.
Ahuramazda - playing to the lowest common denominator I see. Think much?
As a matter of curiosoty I thought this was the original homeland of the Jews before the dispora?
I was also under the impression that control of Gaza had been returned and that Israel had withdrawn her forces?
I also seem to remember that the Palestinian lands were taken after Isreal had been attacked? Not that they attacked the Palestinians and threw them out.
Anyone know for sure about these things?
As for the Jews being responsible for the Nazi’s, thats absurd.
Ok, Ok….I can’t spell….
curiosity
Thomas More, there are plenty of books and websites where you can find out what really happened. An easy read from the Palestinian point of view is Blood brothers by Elias Chacour and also read Exodus by Leon Uris for the Jewish point of view.
Yes, more complete bs from the pro arab people.
The cost of us support since 1973? Not a fifth as much as the iraq war, or a few years of buying oil from arab countries at these prices.
You guys just want israel to, as another poster said, march into the sea. They arn’t going to do this, and they will not fail to respond to the constant arab aggression they face.
Nahidia, actually, the images in this conflict that are “manufactured” come from the arab side. Remember the fake jenin funerals? Remember the photoshopping of pics from the hezbollah war?
You guys are the ones spinning propaganda.
Ahuramazda - >>“…what else is it you would have me do to satisfactorily “disassociate” myself.”
See a plastic surgeon for a nose job.<<
OK. I never once here have used the term anti-semetic. Disagreeing with Israel is something that one can do rationally as many here do. This however, is as ugly as calling an african-american stupid or a Mexican lazy. This is anti-semitism and it is base and below this site.
sphne May 16th, 2008 10:16 am
Thanks for the suggestions.
zionist watch
I would like to respond to this contribution to this forum if I may.
“No sir, I/we do not hold out any hope of the zionist jews marching into the sea any time soon just to please us. I perhaps can offer a simple solution though. Why not allow all the Palestinians to return to their homes, make the jews stop murdering the Palestinians,pay reparations and return living in peace just like the jews, Muslims, and Christians did before western governments decided to steal the land from the inhabitants that lived there before 1947.”
Okay, fair enough. Do we also give the right of return, reparations, etc. to all of the Jews expelled from Arab lands after 1947?
“But as you are surely aware, the zionist jews will not accept this and will not stop terrorizing, killing, and stealing the land of Palestinians until this country makes them .”
I don’t honestly know if the US can make them do anything. I do know that when the two sides sit down to negotiate that good things can happen. Egypt has signed a peace treaty. Jordan co-exists with Israel in relative equanimity. There is even talk that Syria may come to the Table and get back the Golan.
“The zionist jews are a terrorist organization and israel is a rogue state and must be treated as such.”
I don’t think that vilification of one party or the other does any good. There are plenty of people that think Hamas is a terrorist organization and refuse to talk to them. What good does that do? How dumb is it for Hamas to rain those pitiful little rockets into Israel and kill the occasional grandmother? It simply plays into their hands and gives them an excuse not to negotiate.
Sooner or later, they will be forced to give up their wall and settlements in the West Bank, but it won’t happen until the Palestinians quit shooting themselves in the foot. I don’t know that the right of return will ever happen.
Actually, I do “think much”. YOU were the one who asked the question what more can be done to “diassociate myself” from the Jews besides renouncing Israel, taking part in anti-Zionist parades, showing understanding and compassion regarding the plight of the Gaza people. YOU proposed that question.
My response was for you to have a nose job in order to make your nose smaller…less “Jewish” as it were. So what? And…
The Israelis disappoint me…big time! The victim has become the victimizer. While the Jewish people endured quite possibly the longest persecution known in History, this does not give carte blanche to punish the Palestinians for what Jewish people have been through. Let me be even MORE frank, as if “anti-semitism” is a bad thing anyhow! The Jews were the ones who have owned that term unto themselves WITHOUT acknowledging that Palestinians are Semitic people also. Will a Jew EVER acknowlege that the treatment of Palestinians is “anti-semitic”? I seriously doubt that. Would a Palestinian? Quite frankly, I am not sure…but the Ten Commandments is something that ALL Jewish people should adhere to…but refuse to do so.
After 60 years of hte existence of Israel, it is evident that they want more than what was granted to them in 1948. Also, they chose to ignore the 1967 border arrangments. The Palestinians were also promised control of the West Bank after 1948, and yet the Jews refuse to grant the Palestinians control of the West Bank to this day - against the backdrop of the systematic killing of the Gaza people as well as their systematic extinction.
Conclusion - Israelis are greedy yamaka-wearing big-nosed worthless pieces of S***! Again, they have shown little gratitude for the gift of Palestine after WW2. Indeed, they want more land than what was promised to them.
Most of the people who post comments here are supposedly “progressive.” Yeah..progressive. Actually I do consider myself progressive. For example, my opinion of Israel - that most here seem to disagree with. In my opinion, the Hebrews and European Jews should forfeit Israel simply on the basis of their lack of gratitude by demonstrating cruelty to Palestinians. Just an opinion…ok? I mean…again, if a particular group is not grateful for a nation bestowed upon them by the International Community - should the same group in turn forfeit the gift? Right? People here on CD are supposedly Progressive? Yeah…ok. Most who post on CD do not seem as “progressive” as I would have thought.
BreeMass,
I think you must continue to do what you’re doing, and encourage like-minded Jews to do the same. I think you should write or call when Likudnik thugs appear on TV or radio and forecfully let the media know that these criminals and propagandists do not speak for you.
Finally, I feel very strongly that American Jews who feel they are being misrepresented by AIPAC, right-wing Jewish commentators and American Likudnik organizations must retaliate financially, by boycotting and organizing against those who are fomenting anti-Jewish sentiment by their hawkish, amoral actions.
Goose2 - thank you for being the only one on here to call foul on true anti-Semitism.
Ahuramazda, I will say in no uncertain terms that Palestinians are Semites and yes, you could refer to violence against Palestinians is an example of anti-Semitism. However, the term goes back centuries and was coined by Europeans who considered Semites to be Jews and it has stuck over the years. There, a Jew admitted it. Happy?
I asked a sincere question and you throw back blatant racism in my face and expect to listen to a damn word you say?!?! Good luck with that.
Jewbacca - I don’t know which “jenin funerals” you are referring to, but I’ve been to Jenin and seen the destruction and death caused by Israeli incursions with my own eyes. Argue for Israel all you want but don’t outright lie, okay? It makes all us Jews look blind and ignorant.
Most of the zionist leaders (BenGurion, Perez, Netanyoohoo, Sharon) all started their careers as terrorists.
They should be in the Hague serving life sentences for the atrocities and massacres they commanded and led.
All the recent Russian emigrees should be returned to where they came from, same for
those who are mass converted in India so they qualify for entry.
Over 60% of Israeli Jews identify themselves as atheists - so what do the ten commandments have to do with these “rejectionists”? They are not religious, so can they really be called Jews
as the word is understood by the majority of\English speakers?
These “chosen people” broke their covenant with their god so any so called contract between them & their god they have broken the deal. They have been cursed to wander the earth and to belong nowhere.
That is is you believe the babblings of the old testament - mostly stolen from earlier
Persian & Mesopotamian stories & passed off
as original jewish writing.
Just another example of the notorious scams and schemes of the “chosen people”.
Since their conquest of Palestine their greed has shown no limit.
The disengagement from Gaza is a PR coup, as they have neither left or quit killing people there daily.
Murders & other crimes are excused with squawks about security - this from the 4th largest army in the world against their
largely unarmed civilian targets.
Nobody is buying this crap anymore, not even
the totally brain dead such as jewbucka.
Bree, you arn’t jewish.
And yes, there were fake funerals, and all sorts of crap, at Jenin during operation defensive shield. I love how all of you guys act like you don’t know what I’m talking about.
bell, when you are an israeli in Sederot, or facing palestinian suicide bombing, you don’t consider your security concerns to be a “squawk”. What really kills me about your post is that if I posted the same thing about the arabs, I’d be called a racist and bigot and troll. Are you all of those things?
There is no moral difference between the old apartheid regime of South Africa and the Zionist regime that uses the skins of the Nazi victims to conceal its true character.
Why has it become the job of American politicians to look after/take care of wealthy nation states? But nations that are struggling (ie. have no oil and/or ideology we agree with) we dismiss completely? The situation in many places is grave, Darfur for example, and yet nothing is done. Why do we allow our “leaders” to continue arming the world and call it necessary for national security? How does Israel killing Palestinians protect America? I am sure someone will think me anti-semitic for this, but I don’t care: Our first priority should be to solve the problems in America: homelessness, poverty, failing economy… Let Israeli politicians take care of their own.
joobooboo, after asking if I’m a racist, bigot or troll I’m shocked that you didn’t add usual kicker of ANTISEMITE.
I don’t feel sorry for the people who choose to live in Sderot, why wouldn’t they with huge government subsidies mostly coming out of USA taxpayer pockets. The Sderots are ecstatic when a homemade rocket actually kills someone - as long as the ratio is 10 Pals to every 1 Iz it suits the zionist evil purpose of pretending that they are eternal victims - no matter what the actual facts are.
Those in Sderot who don’t have dual citizenship with other countries shouldn’t have a hard time getting another passport,
I’m a bit curious what you found so offensive about my post - the fact that the 4th largest army in the world that routinely bombs unarmed sleeping citizens,
regularly practices “targeted assassinations” a polite way to say MURDER, who daily practice torture, detention with no charges and so many hideous inhumane acts still cannot defeat unarmed civilians who have only their bodies & suicide belts
to protect themselves from the zionist monsters.
Or don’t you like people knowing that more than half of self identified jews claim atheism?
I’ve read the words of your bigoted bigshot rabbis ( 1000 Palestinians lives are not worth the fingernail of a jew, calling for transfer ( orwellian term for ethnic cleansing. Elected officials calling Palestinians cockroaches in a bottle, even Israeli government officials cringe when they see the videos of Palestinians being forced to play musical instruments at the thousands of checkpoints, and the one Is.official who said the old Pal woman searching through her demolished home reminded him of photos of the holocaust.
Zionism is nazism dressed up in yarmulkes and perhaps more clever words - but the actions of the Israelis are surpassing the crimes of the cZars, nazis and white supremicists.
Get on the straight path and drop the “chosen” rhetoric, you have been offered truces & deals by all major Arab nations since 2002 - but zionism’s true concern is greed, land, greed, land, greed,
ignoring all human rights unless a jew is
involved.
If you find my truth racist, maybe in your nationality’s famous generosity you can put it down to my less than high school education and forgive my lack of eloquence,
but for me to be silent while the zionist
entity murders, steals, tortures, “has accidents that include families picnicing on the beach being massacred” would be tantamount to condoning the crimes of the world’s 2nd most abusive nation.
The sun is beginning to shine on the truth and your lies will never be believed again,
as the Izraelis have all the power in this situation it is their responsibility to start by begging forgiveness and owning up to its responsibilities of refugee return, reparations and punishing the worst of your lot and begin to obey international law.
Old habits are hard to break, especially for bullies, but then you always have the samson option.
Israel = Sodom & Gomorrah.
Guess it’s time for some good old testament
incest, like when Lot’s evil devious daughters got him drunk enough for sex - even though most men I know cannot get a hard penis if they are so inebriated that they don’t know they are screwing their own children.So I guess that’s another lie the chosen people choose to tell - too drunk to recognize his daughters but sober enough to
ejaculate in both of them.
What you call bigotry I call truth. Idon’t
believe you come across truth very ofter, you seem very unfamiliar with anything but zionistic propaganda.
Jewbacca - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I didn’t read anything after your ridiculous presumption that I’m not really Jewish because I won’t toe the Likudnik party line. You’re freaking hilarious.
Bell, the citizens of Sederot are ecstatic when rockets kill someone? I must admit, I’ve talked to all manner of people on here, but you are truly the most disgusting. Don’t worry about any of my comments toward you, as there won’t ever be another.
Bree, well you should read the rest of what I said, and be sure to check out some of the responses, chief of them Mr. Bell above. That’ll give you a great idea of what you support now. Great to see you don’t support the likud though, and I agree, they are way too soft on terrorism.
nahida May 18th, 2008 1:43 pm
Freedom of expression in the only “democracy” in the Middle East
—
Nahida, It seems that you’re full of hatred to the only non-Muslim state in the Middle East. You’re dedicated to show how “Evil” Israel is.
You fail to see the context of the big picture though. Don’t just say “Israel is Evil”. Look around you. Compare Israel’s actions to any other country in the barbarous region of the Middle East, where hundreds of thousands of people are killed every year just because they belong to the wrong religious sect, because they’re gay, because they said something against Islam, because they sold land to a Jew or because they are a woman who had been raped (And the Family honor must be protected).
Israel, though not perfect, and not without problems, - IS - the only full democracy in the Middle East. There are some other partial democracies in the Middle east, such as Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey and the Palestinian Authority.
You brought a Video that show how Palestinians (With full Israeli Citizenship, I must add, which is something that is deprived from Jews in all 22 Arab countries) demonstrate the ‘Nakba’ day. The Police cracked that protest, and you cry in vengence: “There is no freedom of speech in Israel.”
Fact1. There is freedom of speech in Israel, to a degree higher than in any other Middle Eastern country.
Fact 2: It is illegal to block roads, unless you get a license from the police. Which is what the protesters did, and for that the police disperse that protest and arrested a few of the vandals.
It was clearly seen in that youtube video of yours that there were two groups of protestors. Those who blocked the highway, and those who stood on a hill nearby. From what I could see, the police dispersed, and arrested some of the protestors who blocked the highway to traffic and by thus broke the law. Those who stood on the hill weren’t touched.
Fact 3: Just to prove you that there is a high degree of freedom of speech in Israel, I went to the web site of the Jerusalem Post (An Israeli Zionist newspaper) and I search for the work ‘Nakba’
The search result gave me 324 records.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/results.html?QryTxt=Nakba
I dare you to show me one Arabic media that can return 300 records of the Ethnic cleansing which was committed between 1948 and 1967 in the Arab World against the Jews. (Which is by the way, of a bigger scale than the of the Palestinian Nakba.)
Nahida,
You cannot win a debate by ignoring well asked and researched questions with poetry that amounts to non-sequitir. My respect for your postition weakens every time you ignore the inconvenient.
Maybe that is why Arab nations are incapable of creating a military challenge to Israel. They ignore the inconvenient things like creating a technoligically literate middle class that can operate modern weaponry effectively. They can’t abandon autocracy which would allow them to develop and efficient officer corps that can rely on initiative when the fog of war/necessary speed of action, precludes obtaining direction from higher authority.
Go ahead, continue to ignore the inconvenient.
nahida May 19th, 2008 12:43 pm
“Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors.”
Well Nahida, Claiming that Jews killed Jews in order to force them to immigrate to Israel is a bigotry and most likely a lie, In any case, that false accusation is attributed only to a small portion of Jews who left Iraq. That claim equal perhaps to a claim (Which I don’t support) that Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians and were forced to immigrate out of Palestine by their brothers.
Here is a testimony to the Massacres, property confiscations and expulsion from the Libyan Jews. Given to the UN Human Right commission.
http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=5118137
According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 600,000 resettled in Israel, leaving behind property valued today at more than $300 billion.
Today there are less than 5000 Jews in Arab countries. Here are some examples:
Iraq:
===
In 1948, there were approximately 150,000 Jews in Iraq.
However by 2003, there were only approximately 100 left of this previously thriving community. (Which existed for 2500 years)
In 1941, following Rashid Ali’s pro-Axis coup, riots known as the Farhud broke out in Baghdad in which approximately As a result of Farhud, about 180 Jews were killed and about 240 were wounded, 586 Jewish-owned businesses were looted and 99 Jewish houses were destroyed.
In March 1950, Iraq passed a law of one year duration allowing Jews to emigrate on condition of relinquishing their Iraqi citizenship. The initial rate of registration accelerated after a bomb injured three Jews at a café. Two months before the expiry of the law, by which time about 85,000 Jews had registered, a bomb at the Masuda Shemtov Synagogue killed 3 or 5 Jews and injured many.
In 1951 the Iraqi Government passed legislation that made affiliation with Zionism a felony and ordered, “the expulsion of Jews who refused to sign a statement of anti-Zionism. During the next few months, all but a few thousand of the remaining Jews registered for emigration, spurred on by a sequence of bombings that caused few casualties but had great psychological impact. In total, about 120,000 Jews left Iraq
some Iraqi activists in Israel still regularly charge that Israel used violence to engineer the exodus, while Israeli officials of the time vehemently deny it. According to historian Moshe Gatt, few historians believe that Israel was actually behind the bombing campaign — based on factors such as records indicating that Israel did not want such a rapid registration rate and that bomb throwing at Jewish targets was common before 1950, making the Istiqlal Party a more likely culprit than the Zionist underground.
Egypt:
=====
In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. About 100 remain today.
In June 1948, a bomb exploded in Cairo’s Karaite quarter, killing 22 Jews.
In July 1948, Jewish shops and the Cairo Synagogue was attacked, killing 19 Jews.
Hundreds of Jews were arrested and had their property confiscated.
In October 1956, when the Suez Crisis erupted, 1,000 Jews were arrested and 500 Jewish businesses were seized by the government. A statement branding the Jews “enemies of the state” was read out in the mosques of Cairo and Alexandria. Jewish bank accounts were confiscated and many Jews lost their jobs. Lawyers, engineers, doctors and teachers were not allowed to work in their professions. In 1967, Jews were detained and tortured, and Jewish homes were confiscated.
In 1951, the fraudulent Protocols of the Elders of Zion was translated into Arabic and promoted as an authentic historical document, fueling anti-Semitic sentiments in Egypt.
In 1965, the Egyptian government released an English-language pamphlet titled Israel, the Enemy of Africa and distributed it throughout the English-speaking countries of Africa. The pamphlet used the Protocols and The International Jew as its sources and concluded that all the Jews were cheats, thieves, and murderers.
Libya
====
The area now known as Libya was the home of one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world, dating back to at least 300 BCE. In 1948, about 38,000 Jews lived there.
A series of pogroms started in Tripoli in November 1945; over a period of several days more than 130 Jews (including 36 children) were killed, hundreds were injured, 4,000 were left homeless, and 2,400 were reduced to poverty. Five synagogues in Tripoli and four in provincial towns were destroyed, and over 1,000 Jewish residences and commercial buildings were plundered in Tripoli alone
The pogroms continued in June 1948, when 15 Jews were killed and 280 Jewish homes destroyed.
In 1967, during the Six-Day War, the Jewish population of 4,000 was again subjected to pogroms in which 18 were killed, and many more injured. The Libyan government “urged the Jews to leave the country temporarily”, permitting them each to take one suitcase and the equivalent of $50.
In 1970 the Libyan government issued new laws which confiscated all the assets of Libya’s Jews, issuing in their stead 15 year bonds. However, when the bonds matured no compensation was paid. Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi justified this on the grounds that “the alignment of the Jews with Israel, the Arab nations’ enemy, has forfeited their right to compensation
Morocco
======
Morocco the Vichy regime during World War II passed discriminatory laws against Jews; for example, Jews were no longer able to get any form of credit, Jews who had homes or businesses in European neighborhoods were expelled, and quotas were imposed limiting the percentage of Jews allowed to practice professions such as law and medicine to two percent.
In June 1948, soon after Israel was established and in the midst of the first Arab-Israeli war, riots against Jews broke out in Oujda and Djerada, killing 44 Jews.
On January 10, 1961, a boat carrying Jews attempting to flee the country sank off the northern coast of the country
Syria
====
Rioters in Aleppo in 1947 burned the city’s Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.
In 1948, there were approximately 30,000 Jews in Syria. The Syrian government placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including on emigration. Over the next decades, many Jews managed to escape.
Tunisia
=====
Jews have lived in Tunisia for at least 2300 years. In 1948, approximately 105,000 Jews lived in Tunisia. About 1,500 remain today.Following Tunisia’s independence from France in 1956, a number of anti-Jewish policies led to emigration. After attacks in 1967, Jewish emigration both to Israel and France accelerated. There were also attacks in 1982, 1985, and most recently in 2002 when a bomb in Djerba took 21 lives (most of them German tourists) near the local synagogue, in a terrorist attack claimed by Al-Qaeda.
Yemen
=====
If one includes Aden, there were about 63,000 Jews in Yemen in 1948. Today, there are about 200 left.
In 1947, riots killed at least 80 Jews in Aden. Increasingly hostile conditions led to the Israeli government’s Operation Magic Carpet, the evacuation of 50,000 Jews from Yemen to Israel in 1949 and 1950.
Jews in Yemen were long subject to a number of restrictions, ranging from attire, hairstyle, home ownership, marriage, etc. Under the “Orphan’s Decree”, many Jewish orphans below puberty were raised as Muslims. This practice began in the late 18th century, was suspended under Ottoman rule, then was revived in 1918. Most cases occurred in the 1920s, but sporadic cases occurred until the 1940s.
nahida, I can understand your pain, since I’m myself a grandchild of refugees. You, along with many innocent Palestinians suffered. However, don’t blame all Israelis, or just Israelis for your loss, because there would have been no war, and no Palestinian refugee problem, had the Palestinian leadership accepted the UN partition plan 181 in November 1947.
The Palestinian leadership, and the Arab league rejected UN resolution 181, instead, they went to war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine. Surly you can translate to the reader of CommonDreams what is the meaning of war cry “Itbach al yahud.”
Azzam Pasha, the Arab League Secretary, declared on Cairo radio: ‘This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades
As a result of that war, which, I emphasize, was initiated by the Arabs, about 1000 Palestinians civilians were massacred. An unknown number (Between 5000 and 15000) of Arabs (Palestinians and others) were killed in fighting. And 711,000 Palestinians become refugees.
On the other hand, in that same war which was initiated by the Arabs, 6,373 Jews were killed in Israel (4,000 troops and about 2,400 civilians), about 1000 Jews were massacred in Arab countries, about 856,000 Jews who lived in Arab countries for thousands of years, and about 3,000 who lived in the West bank and Gaza (Such as the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem) - also become refugees.
These are the facts from a broader view point, one that shows both sides. The Palestinian suffering did not occur in a vacuum, nor were they the only victims of the 1948 Arab Israeli war.
Nice job letto.
Any response nahida, you’ve scrolled discussion after discussion with your stuff, now let’s see a real response here. You call for arab right of return, so what about the jews kicked out of arab countries that letto discussed?
Where is the right of return for them?
Namaste,
Israel might better respect the Arab states if they were able to mount a credible threat. You are of course correct in that warfare is not a solution. However, no rational person will deny that many of the Palestinian’s problems are self-perpetuated either.
There is no such thing as Muslim unity, even within a given nation.
nahida,
I never said Jews were expelled from Non Arab countries in the Middle East.
I never said there is a specific problem for Jews to live in Iran. (Though they are 2nd class citizents, even in Iran)
Last time I checked - Iran was NOT an Arab country.
Today there are Jewish communities only in 3 Middle Eastern countries, non of them are Arabs. Iran, Turkey and Israel.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: “Death to Israel”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo
He also said Israel is a stinking corpse:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080508/wl_mideast_afp/iranisraelpolitics_080508104521
Iran, since 1979 has executed 40,000 people for hearty, adultery, homosexuality and politics.
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Gay%20executed%20in%20Iran%5C&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Don’t hide the truth. Don’t paint Iran as saints.
Nahida,
Don’t you feel the slightest bit of shame that the Persians, in spite of all the Israeli bluster and saber rattling in their direction, treat their Jewish population so much better than Arab (what little is left of their original Jewish population) countries do?
Letto,
Their are plenty of Arab states that execute their people for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, politics, and other offenses. I think the connecting link, is a consevative brand of Islam. The Indonesians don’t generally treat their people that way.
kendpotter - I’m a Liberal Zionist. What makes me a Zionist is the realization that Jews, like any other nation on the planet, has the right for self determination. (Which is not the right to steal land by force)
I never expelled, nor have I killed anyone in my life. I never stole anyone’s land. I don’t think any human is superior to or inferior to any other. And I don’t want to see any innocent Palestinian civilian suffer.- In a perfect world. I think anyone should be allowed to live anywhere he wants.
In my post, I was trying to show Nahida, that atrocities were commited by both sides. No one is innocent.
In order to resolve the conflict, both sides should recognize that the other have a right to exist, and find a Win / Win solution.
Pointing fingers and bitching how “Evil” is the other side - will NOT bring peace.
nahida May 19th, 2008 6:22 pm
“ZIONISM AND ANTISEMITISM”
“Zionists thrive on hatred and suffering of Jews… Zionism thrives on anti-Semitism”
What a bunch of baloney.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zionism
Zionism: “a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel.”
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Zionism: “A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.”
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
I’m a liberal Zionist. I believe all humans and all nations, and yes - even Jews, has the same right for self determination, and the right to exist like anyone else (Including the Palestinians). I also would like to believe that if possible - no human should suffer. One can only hope nahida dear, that you trust me when I say that I’ll be a happy person if there won’t be any hatred against Jews. (And in fact no hatred against anyone)
Can you please show me how exactly does it makes me an anti-semite? And why do I thrive on the hatred of Jews?
By The Way - I’m still waiting for the following two questions you still failed to answer.
1. Your list of all UN members that you think have no right to exists.
2. An Arab media which will give above 300 articles on the Jewish Ethnic cleansing from Arab countries.
nahida, I have another question for you.
Do you think that the strategy of spiting venom and hatred against people, which at least some of them have done nothing to your people, is going to solve the Palestinian suffering?
You try to paint the Palestinians as some sort of blame seekers, finger pointer wimps, who have no control what so ever over their own action and their own destiny. This sort of all or nothing mind set will only bring suffering and destruction to your people. Just like it did in the past.
We can sit all day and show how evil the other side is. But this will resolve nothing.
I’m willing to speak with you. I recognize your pain (Which I know is genuine). Surly a better way can be found.
Are you willing for reconciliation? Will you be willing to take a step for a better future for both Israelis and Palestinians alike?
Vis-a-vis Israel as a democracy–it certainly has problems, and has a lot of room for improvement. But it is a hell of a lot more democratic than Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lybia, etc., which are not democracies at all.
Raanan G
nahida dear.
From you long scrolls, I can understand one thing. You strongly believe that a coin has only one side. You give me ultimatum - See the reality as I, nahida sees it - or there will be no peace.
This is very sad news, for this is exactly the mindset that caused the catastrophe to your people in the past, and will cause more pain, suffering and loses in the future.
You want to turn the clock back to the mid 19th century. (Before Zionism)
The Hamas wants to turn the clock to 800AD. (The Caliphate)
And some Jewish fanatic wants to turn the clock back to 960BC. (The time of Kind David)
I say, don’t fight to turn the clock exactly to the time that suite you best. Think about the future. Think about your children, and your grand children. What kind of future will they have if you go the path of War and hatred?. Do you want them to live in poor refugee camps? Do you want them to fight, kill and get killed? Don’t you want a good future for them? Future of peace and prosperity instead of war, poverty and despair?
Now I’ll go for a brief history lesson, just so you would see that a coin have more than one side:
- Jews lived in the land of Israel for thousands of years.
- Many years ago the land which you call Palestine, was called Judea, and Israel, and it was a free independent Jewish kingdom.
Surly you have heard of king David (In the Kuran - Daud), and kind Salomon (In the Kuran - Suliman). When Jesus (In the Kuran -Isa) walked the streets of Jerusalem (Al-Kuds), Bet Lehem and Nazarath, the people he met were Jews, and NOT Palestinians or Arabs.
If you don’t believe the Bible or the Kuran, there are plenty of Roman, and Greek Historians that wrote books about the Jews who live in Judea.
On the other hand, Never in history there was an independent Arabic country in the borders of Palestine. (Which is, by the way, a name given to Judea by the Roman Emperor Adrian, After he crashed the Jewish rebellion in 135AD)
nahi: “Palestine was occupied time and again, through out history, many kings, and many empires; Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Roman, Byzantine, Crusaders.”
You forgot to add the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judea to your list. An innocent omission?
—
nahi: “the crimes they (Zionists) committed against innocent people (Palestinians) who had nothing to do with the anti-Semitic crimes of Europe, but they have been made to pay the price of those crimes.”
Wrong. The Palestinian leadership was allied with Nazi Germany, and conspired Genocide against the Jews with their European anti-semi allies
In February 1941, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government a draft declaration of German-Arab cooperation, containing a clause:
Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy.
Among the acts of sabotage al-Husayni attempted to implement, Michael Bar Zohar reports a chemical warfare assault on the second largest and predominantly Jewish city in Palestine, Tel Aviv. According to him, five parachutists were sent with a toxin to dump into the water system. The police caught the infiltrators in a cave near Jericho, and according to Jericho district police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi, ‘The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers
In September 1943, intense negotiations to rescue 500 Jewish children from the town of Arbe in Croatia collapsed due to the objection of the Mufti who blocked the children’s departure to Turkey because they would end up in Palestine.
Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann from Stuttgart University and Martin Cüppers from the University of Ludwigsburg, indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel’s Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. In their book the researchers concluded that, “the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem
nahi: “We have a culture that has hospitality and forgiveness at its heart.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otLQ7xLKWOw
http://www.take-a-pen.org/english/Articles/Art04102003.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1xhmJ4DDmY
Your comment about “culture that has hospitality and forgiveness at its heart” reminds me of Hamas terrorist saying “Allah al-Rachman” (God is merciful) just before they cut the trough of Nahshon vaksman, (Who was an handcuffed hostage)
nahida: ““Palestine was occupied time and again, through out history, many kings, and many empires; Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Roman, Byzantine, Crusaders.”
I assume you chose to omit the Biblical Kingdoms of ISRAEL and JUDEA (1300BC till 135AD) from your list since they might suggest that Jews, after all, might have some historical right over Israel.
The nations of the middle east, are starting to uprise. Not only Muslims have right to exists. From the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey, the Duruz, and Maron in Lebanon and Syria, The Bahai in Iran and the Jews of Israel. The Middle east should return to its original indigenous people.
Israel have only 0.2% of the Middle east. The Arab League (+ Iran and Turkey, who are also Muslim nations) control the other 99.8%
http://www.wbur.org/photogallery/infographics/arabLeague.gif
Do you think 99.8& is enough for them?
You have also forgot to mentions Islamic occupations and Empires who ruled the land of Israel for a brief time:
The Arab Occupation of 638. The Arab Caliphate, The Fatimid (Saladin) occupation, the Mamluk occupation, and the Ottoman empire. This is only natural that you chose to “forget” these, because you try to hide the fact that Muslim could have Imperial aspiration, Islamic occupation, and colonization projects which doesn’t fall from the European one, and that Muslim Empires can came and go just like the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Roman, Byzantine, Crusaders.
nahida, and what about all the millions of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries, leaving behind $300,000,000,000 worth of property?
And what about all Israeli terror and war victims?
Do you suppose Israel should halt all talks before that issue is resolved?
Also - Jews returning to their homeland is not colonializm. If you want to learn what Colonialism is- there is a good book on the subject. It is called dictionary.
presence_aka_Namaste,
You’re good in name calling, swearing and spitting venom. Clearly History is not your strong side.
“as we all can see ( for ourselves, thank you ) where the facts of history are well founded, and whereupon the bu$h!t flows to undercut spurious reasoning and falsified feelings of upset and outrage.”
Show me Namaste which historical fact that I wrote isn’t true.
- Was there or wasn’t there a kingdom of Israel and Judea in Biblical times? (Jewish Kingdoms)
- Did various Muslim Empires occupied the land Israel / Palestine for a limited time or not? (The Arab Caliphate, The Fatimid (Saladin), the Mamluk and the Ottoman)
- Did the Palestinians rejected, or accepted the UN partition plan? (UN resolution 181)
- Did the Arab initiated a war with the intention to annihilate the Jews of Palestine or not? (In 1947-1949)
- Did the Arab countries ethnically cleansed the Jews who lived there for 2500 years (856,000 according to Arab sources), and stole property worth $300,000,000,000 or not?
I’m waiting.
nahida - I’m a Zionist, I don’t hate anyone to begin with, I never stole anything from anyone in my life and I never killed anyone too.
Are you consumed by hatered nahida?
Will you overcome your hate and listen to the voice of reason? Will you have peace with me? A Win/Win peace that is acceptable by both sides? A peace which will bring hope to both our childrens?
I’m sorry to see that when failing to disprove even a single of my claims (which of course you can’t since they are common knowledge) - you revert to a childish like response of “I’m not listening…”
By the way, I see that you’re still using your computer (which uses Intel and Microsoft components that were developed in Israel). Am I to understand that you’ve decided to postpone your noble boycott?