And they ask the asinine question...why do they hate us?

Thats the way these people work. Ok, we'll pull out, but we're going to make sure they can't live after doing so. We'll probably see the same thing in Iraq once we pull out of there. The inevitable civil war that will come, most likely developing a leader our government will find reason to label as a threat. Then imposing sanctions on the country again. And back to starving the citizens to death again. Got to kill them off somehow right. I just wonder if the UN will allow us to instate and control the next no fly zone there again. Then our government can use bombs when the violence reaches a certain degree. Most likely fewer reporters in the country by this time from fear of the violence. So it will be easy enough to claim virtually at will the degree of violence and bombing was warranted.

"Israel and the United States will strangle Gaza by cutting off all money and goods, including fuel and most food, to reduce one of the most densely populated places on the planet to an impoverished ghetto"

Well, it worked in Warsaw, where the Jews learned this tactic from the master of this game..Hitler....I wonder... will Haliburton get the no-bid contract to construct the inevitable gas-chambers?

At least the US sham of "brnging democracy to the Middle East" has finally been exposed as the thin cover for US hedgmony and dictatorship that it has been all along, both in Palistine and Iraq.

the Bush Riech does not even support democracy at home, let alone anywhere else.

First of all I want to make clear that I feel sorry for the poor ordinary residence of Gaza. They must be going through hell... However, there are some inaccuracy in this article that must be set right:

Article: "...the anarchy will perhaps be used to justify a reoccupation by the Israeli military"

- I hardly think this is the case. there is very little support to such a move in the Israeli public. It's like suggesting now that the USA should reoccupy Vietnam.

Article: "...They cannot enter Israel for work"

- The article should not blame Israel for that fact. The first priority of the Israeli government is to protect the lives of Israeli citizens. In the past, many of the Palestinians who were allowed to enter Israel, used that privilege to explode as suicide bombers. I remember that they even used a woman who was sent for a cancer treatment in an Israeli Hospital for that same purpose.

Article: "...looming humanitarian crisis, manufactured and orchestrated by the Israeli government, in violation of international law, is a brutal form of collective punishment."

- What international law is broken? The Hamas government who rule Gaza is officially in a state of war with Israel. With an official policy of trying to destroy Israel. I fail to see why reducing gas and electricity sale to someone who try to destroy you is a violation of international law.

Was the USA violating international law when in World War II they stopped selling oil to Germany and Japan?

Israel's goal is to exterminate the Palestinians.

Just today on CNN there's an article about the Jewish-Christian Holyland Alliance.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/17/jews.christians/index.html
Apparantly the right-wing crazies don't want to miss out on the bloodshed and horror. They're rallying to their Israeli 'friends' against the 'evil' Palestinians.
Everybody jump on the Holy War bandwagon! Pick your sides Muslims to the left - Christians to the right. Alright on the count of three we'll all start shooting...1, 2,....

MtnGoat it sounds to me you are endorsing collective punishment.

sick

Yup TheLorax these fundamentalist Christians don't feel bad they are killing the original Christian people of Palestine. However, there are good Christian groups like the Quackers fighting Palestinian oppresion and promoting peace.

Vets all sorts on nonsense gets justified in the name of Security. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians makes them less secure in the long run.

Actually, most of the mainstream christian groups are participating in a divestiture campaign when it comes to israel. (methodists, presbyterian, Lutheran.}

"The Israeli right wing dreams of a broken and compliant Palestinian population living on impoverished reservations surrounded by the Israeli military."

Why not just give 'em some blankets coated in small pox? Worked once before...

Sorry I meant to write Quakers!

ducks for peace?

Which genocide is more compassionate, 60 years of torment and death or a few minutes with an insecticide? My heart aches so much for the victims that I have trouble seperating the actors in this atrocity.

look folks. Stop attacking Israel from Gaza, repudiate Hamas and boot them out, and you'll see the embargo on access, goods, and cash, lifted. There is zero reason Israel, the US, or anyone else should give any aid to those in Gaza since they allow Gaza to be used as a staging area for attacks.

If the Palestinians do not want outside force or embargoes used against them, they'll have to step up and stop the attacks launched from their territory themselves. Otherwise, someone else will do it for them. If they don't like that, then they need to do it themselves.

So far, what Gaza's territory has provided is an eloquent example of why not to give a single scrap back to the Palestinians. They'll destroy all the infrastructure, and merely use it as a forward base for attacks.

Israel should have considered it 100%, permanent Israel after taking it in the war. Instead, they attempted to trade land for peace with Palestinian jew slaughterers, and the inevitable result is...more dead jews, no peace, and encouragement for the Palestinians who support terrorism against Israel.

The Israelis may be oppressing the Palestinians, but if they are practicing genocide-they suck at it. 3 main nazi death camps 1,900,000 killed - 126 survivors - Palestinian refugees 1948 800,000. Now 4million plus.

If the Israelis actually wanted the Pals dead, they'd already be long gone.

Israel doesn't want the Palestinians all dead. Or if it does, it wouldn't SAY that in any case. Israel DOES, however, want all of their land - and wants them off of it. The land it takes day by day - as for the Palestinians, Israel is willing to wait. But unless it changes its policies, someday the Palestinians will all be gone. And the Palestinians know this. So they fight assymetrically. People will fight for their land and their homes. They will fight if their children are killed riding bicycles or just looking out of a window. They will fight if 'settlers' attack them on the street and harrass them in their homes. The settlers believe that all of Palestine and more, is theirs because god gave it to them, according to their holy book. The Palestinians know the Israelis believe this - they have the evidence all around them. So they will fight. And they will lose, because Israel is rich and strong.............and can wait.

MtnGoat alot of them already are!

Yes, a lot are. This is what war results in. Sad and unneccessary. Should the Pals decide to revoke their support for terror and pursue peaceful protest while cracking down on the minority of terrorists which are in their midst, Israel would have no reason to do it for them. Problem of course is, once the Pals started cracking down on their own terrorists..then the Pals doing so become domestic targets for slaughter, as we saw in the last few months with the fight over controlling gaza.

Vets, you state, "In the past, many of the Palestinians who were allowed to enter Israel, used that privilege to explode as suicide bombers.
Wrong. That was not Israel. That was Palestinian land that all of the bombs went off in. Not a single bomb has been exploded in the INTERNATIONALLY AGREED-UPON area that is Israel.
International law states that an occupied people HAS THE RIGHT to use arms against the occupier. You and mtn goat are right wing, deluded fools. You should read Jimmy Carter's book: Peace Not Apartheid.
Hamas is an elected, legitimate ruling party. They were elected because the Palestinian people need to forcefully evict their occupiers.
Israel has ignored 40 binding U.N resolutions since 1968. It refuses to return to pre-1967 U.N. approved boundaries or even participate in serious peace talks. It seeks to take what little the Palestianian people have. Led by Hamas, they will not let that happen.
I certainly hope Hamas starts resisting Israeli occupation over in the West Bank as well.

Why should they return to approved boundaries taken during war when all it results in is forward positions for attacks upon them?

I'm uncertain that the right to use force against occupiers includes the right to bomb weddings, shoot kids strapped into car seats in the face at point blank range, or nail bomb teenagers at pizza joints.

Most accept military actions against military members and targets are part of war, but categorically reject the fully intentional selection of non combatants as primary targets simply to kill where it's possible to kill, instead of engaging actual combatants.

I'm not sure what is 'right wing' or 'deluded' about rejecting intentional attacks on non combatants, but if this is right wing, I'm certainly glad not to be left wing or have your incredible supposed clarity, which apparently via your example and comments finds it 'right wing' to oppose such actions.

The Pals should reject violence and begin peaceful methods of resistance while cracking down on the violent among themselves. This will prevent the Israelis from having a justifiable reason for incursions into Gaza or anywhere else Palestinians live.

MtnGoat

Blaming the Palestinians for the violence is like blaming the natives of America for the violence. Israel continues to occupy the West Bank, and in essence, with its fence, Gaza as well.

Israel has never ceased moving settlers into the occupied territory. You did not mention this, and that this is a violation of international law.

Nor did you mention that every human rights group that has looked at the area, including human rights watch, the UN human rights commission, Amnesty International, Doctors without Borders, B'Tsleem, and others, have found Israel guilty of "deliberate killing" and "torture." Deliberate killing means killing not carried out in war, but that which is deliberate and avoidable.

In the first Intifadah, carried out around 1988, the Palestinians used sticks and stones against the Israelis. How did the Israelis respond? With bullets! There was not a recorded incident of a suicide bomber until the mid 1990s, I believe.

Israel has killed 3 times as many Palestinians as the other way around.

So Israel is (1) guilty of stealing land according to international law (2) deliberate killing and torture and (3) has killed 3 times as many Palestinians as the other way around.

Who is actually guilty of not wanting peace?

well DAYUMN....them nasty PAL's musta been trained in the School of America's at Fort Bennings...seems thats what they teach there...terrorism on a grand scale...Oh heck...thats our foreign policy...and their terrorism...DE Mock Racism is a wonderful tool...Blessed are the blind because they cannot see...

I consider the Palestinian's only mistake to be the selection of civilian targets, but how many of these were false flag? We will never know. Regardless, if a foreign country invaded the U.S. and occupied it, increasingly, in an attempt at genocide, I could easily be persuaded to see the civilians as just as much a part of the problem as the military, and I might hit them.
Regardless of their tactical decisions, the Palestinians have the legal and moral right to repel and vanquish the invaders and occupiers of their land. I hope the entire Middle East comes to the aid of the Palestinians and pushes Israel back to pre-1967, U.N.-approved boundaries.

phthenry, 'blaming' people for their choice to engage in violence is entirely appropriate. Humans own the responsibility for their intentional choices. They can choose non violence, or they can choose violence. Whatever their reasoning, good reasons or not, that choice IS a choice and as such they own responsibility for making it.

Unlike Palestine, Israeli's guilty of intentionally killing non combatants as primary targets are prosecuted as criminals. Across the wall, such acts are celebrated and those commiting them are treated as heros.

Israel kills more because it has better weapons and technology. Continuing to fight a well equipped army with weapons that results in such results is a good reason to quit choosing violent resistance.

Additionally, something you in return failed to mention is the demographics of the dead from the actions of each side which shows exactly who is targeting who. By far the majority of those killed by Israelis are combatants or those near them, while the majority of those killed by palestinian militants is women and non combatants, which is consistent with intentionally choosing to kill whoever and whereever you can, instead of targeting military targets.

The palestinians are in a bad situation there is no doubt. They are used as pawns by other nations who want leverage against Israel, and due to the militants in their population face Israeli actions covering their entire territory. Even attempting to interdict their militants sparks civil war.

But the fact remains that unless they do so Israel will do it for them. All the more reason to use peaceful means of resistance and show that they will only use the peace they seek to gain the outcome they seek. Instead, you treat them as unthinking robots who do not own responsibility for their choice of responses, by intimating that somehow they are not responsible for the choices they make.

The most difficult illusion to overcome is that imposed by religions as they have divided people into virtual teams. The economics, access to land and water, of course factor in... but I wish we'd see true spiritual leaders inspire all to join hands and transcend age-old ism divisions that together, genius might inspire new solutions to the pending and serious challenges mankind is soon to face.

I feel a bit uncomfortable with some posters saying Israel wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians. I think Israel wants to push them off their land, and many Israeli leaders have stated this for over 50 years. Pushing people off their land is called ethnic cleansing.

But genocide is too strong a term, and just gives fodder to the enemies of Palestinian rights, who will accuse you of hate speech.

Also, one poster stated that none of the suicide bombers attacked inside of Israel proper. I am nearly positive that statement is false. The suicide bombers have attacked what is considered Israel inside the pre-1967 borders.

MntGoat,

Stop making things up. Human rights groups have found that Israel regularly kills non-combatants. That is terrorism, is it not? You are aware of Hedges report of how Israel taunted Palestinian children and shot them?

Human rights groups have pointed out how those guilty of deliberately killing Palestinians are almost never brought to justice by Israel.

If you are going to condemn people for violence, please start with the Israelis, who perpretate most of it. You haven't condemned Israel for using bullets against Palestinians in the first intifidah. Most of the stock and stick throwers were children resisint illegal occupation.

I assume you are for human rights and not just an apologist for Israel violence and expansion?

When the Palestinians tried a peaceful means of resistance, sticks and stones against tanks, they were met with violence. Also, Israel has deported some major leaders who have advocated peaceful resistance. Israel has no interest in a peaceful solution.

MtnGoat,
Israel has not prosecuted any of the criminals except as show trial that is basically a slap in the hand. Israel, in fact voted in that fat bastard of a war criminal, Sharon as a PM. What does that say about Israel?

Israel, as much as you would like to believe, is not a democracy. It is an apartheid regime with a class system. They never were a democracy. They steal lands in broad daylight with YOUR taxpayer dollars.

Israel kills with weapons supplied by YOU. Palestinians fight with whatever they have. You blame Hamas for not recognizing Israel? Well tel me where does Israel recognize Palestine? This is not about religion, it is about land. Sorry, Israel is a rogue regime in the guise of a democracy. And sheeps like you believe their myths. How much does AIPAC pay you to post drivels?

As MtnGoat is singularly pointing out is some of the truths that have, in the last 40 years become mired lies.

Let's examine what happened in just one incident in Gaza after Israel pulled out. One of the Israeli settlements had built a lucrative argi-business, producing food and flowers for export, and employing Gazans. One of the centerpieces of this enterprise, built by Israelis, was a massive greenhouse. Knowing the pull out was coming and that the Israelis would destroy the greenhouse, a group, led by American Jews, bought the greenhouse and turned it over to the Palestinian Authority, so that there could be products produced and people employed at work they had done for years. Within days the greenhouses were destroyed and the Gazans employed there, unemployed. Why?

Let's examine this: In 1947 after the State of Israel was proclaimed and recognized with the indefensible borders (at one point the whole country was six miles wide), the Arab League chose to bring to bear it's armed forces with the express purpose of destroying it. These nations told those living on the West Bank, and in greater Israel to flee to them and as soon as Israel was wiped off the map, they, the Arabs (now refugees), could come back to Tel Aviv to take over the spoils of the state after it was destroyed and the Israelis pushed into the sea. So what happened, they left, they ran, Israel did not force them out. And of course when they abandoned their property and farms and their Arab brethren did not deliver as promised, they lost everything. And worse than that, the propaganda kept coming. They were told even after the armistice (not a peace agreement), to wait, it would still happen. They are still being told it, it is the raison d'etre of the terrorism that is fomented.

I would be rightfully pissed off too if I was told to leave my nice home a place I was living "only temporarily" just to find out that temporarily meant only to end up a refugee in a squalid camp in a territory controlled by Jordan or Egypt. When the State of Israel got an armistice, which, by the way did not get them an extra stick of land (see West Bank paragraphs above), nor access to the Old City of Jerusalem, these unfortunate people were forgotten by the very people who urged them to run.

Another truth: before the 1967 Six Day War, there existed on those two scraps of land a pathetic people who were never referred to as Palestinians. They were called Arab Refugees. These stateless people were not allowed to go and join their Arab brethren even in Arab countries, and as such they were used as pawns in a geopolitical fight. No one in the Arab League did anything for them, for 30 years. They were under the care of the United Nations as refugees. Why? They were housed in camps on what is known as the West Bank, in squalor and poverty under the jurisdiction of Jordan on the West Bank and Egypt in Gaza.

Has anyone in this thread seen what these camps looked like? I did, I have photos I took in 1970. It is no wonder that the "resistance" movement was fomented there. These were horrible places. Where was the world then? Where were the cries of "Justice for the Palestinians!" then? The Arab states did not want them. Jordan closed their borders to them, as did other Arab states. These refugees were treated like dirt in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon. Why?

After the Six Day War, the West Bank, Gaza, Jerusalem the Golan Heights were opened to trade, commerce, growth and a lot of tourism. The squalid camps of the West Bank were being replaced by roads, electricity, schools, housing, hospitals, markets and Arabs, Israelis, Muslims and Jews enjoyed an economic revival. Jerusalem was a city anyone could wander in, in any of its four quarters day or night and enjoy hospitality in cafes, shopping in the shuks. I participated in a three day sporting event, a march around Jerusalem through the hills and valleys, and saw the "Palestinians", we called them Arabs, in there palatial homes surrounded by families and wealth. I was cordially invited, and accepted, invitations to sit and have tea. These are the Palestinians most people don't know about, the majority with wealth to whom the term "victimized Palestinian" does not apply.

Lastly, MtnGoat is right. Had the State of Israel wanted to destroy this pathetic people, these unfortunate pawns of the PLO, Hamas, etc, it could have done it. But it didn't and hasn't. Why? When under the rules of war it could have annexed and administrated the West Bank and Gaza, as well as the entire Sinai Peninsula, with it's strategic location and oil reserves, why did it not?

Is Israel to blame for defending itself? Just as any country would be. Has any other country been under attack since the day it was brought into existence? No. If your neighbors, the one's living next to you and across the street from you had aimed their weapons at your house and wanted to take it away by killing and destroying you, would you fight to keep it?

Can there be a way for this to end: YES. What is past is past, noting can change the past. What is today is now and what can be is tomorrow. The lessons from the period between the Six Day War and The Yom Kippur War shows that it is possible for all the people in the area from the Jordan River to the Sea to live together, thrive economically and benefit from mutual trade and contact. But, this cannot happen if one party is still bent on totally destroying the other, and putting it out of existence.

phthenry, killing non combatants is not terrorism. *intentionally* targeting them as the intended targets, is.

Considering violence (sticks and stones) to be non violence is part of the problem. Sticks and stones kill too. The Israelis torn apart by bare hands after being taken from the Palestinian police a few years back wasn't non violence either. Non violence is just that...non violence.

I'm not making anything up. I've already stated that yes, Israel has done it too, and it is considered criminal and prosecuted..not perfectly, but prosecution is ever perfect, and the difference between prosecuting some but not all, and not perfectly, and celebrating such acts and committing them at will with full intent...is obvious.

BaltoCaveMan

I see you are intent on repeating a lot of Israel propaganda. Yes, peace cannot exist if one side wants to destroy the other. Then you are against some of the extremist members in the Israel government who call for "transfer" of the Palestinians? And you are against the settlers who think God gave them all the land and terrorize Palestinians (have you ever seen any of those videos) and make their life hell.

I notice you keep repeating how Israel has a right to defend itself. But like other Israeli apologists, you don't mention how moving settlers into someone else's land constitutes defending yourself. Nor how "deliberately killing" non combatants means defending yourself. Or torturing Palestinians.

You also gave a false version of history. The Arab states attacked what was going to be Israel because the UN had given people who only owned 5 percent of the land--contrary to the UN charter itself--55 percent of the best land. In other words, the Arabs were being robbed of their land by an outside entity. You would have fought, too. If fact, if you think it is okay for Israel to defend itself, then why wasn't it okay for the Palestinians to do the same.

It is true that the Arab states use the Palestinians as pawns. But The Palestinians started resisting their statelessness in 1964, before Israel had control of the territories.

And no, Israel did not make the occupied territories into some kind of paradise.

Israel is an illegal occupying force that commits brutality against the indigenous population and continues to steal their lands.

That is the view of every country in the world outside the US and Israel.

As stated by mtngoat:

"Continuing to fight a well equipped army with weapons that results in such results is a good reason to quit choosing violent resistance."

This is the statement of a coward.

MtnGoat says "Sad and unneccessary. Should the Pals decide to revoke their support for terror and pursue peaceful protest while cracking down on the minority of terrorists which are in their midst, Israel would have no reason to do it for them."

You make it sound like Palestinians commit terroristic acts for pure fun. I have heard this b.s so many times "only if these wretched Palestinians would stop resisting (read surrender) Israel would take the foot off their collective necks". It is the occupation chicken that laid the terror egg. It would be insane not to resist in their situation...up to and including asymmetry warfare....you know what i mean.

phthenry:
You know, if I was a knee-jerk supporter of the State I would be less tolerant of your views. As far as extremists, I don't care for any extremists, which is why I choose only this forum to read and comment on. The Kach Party headed by Rabbi Meir Kahane, was repulsive to me in the 70's as are those who continue his philosophy today. Those refugees on the West Bank and in Gaza who show that they are not also extremists have the right to stay, raise families and earn a living, but not if they want to destroy someone else to do it. So, no, I do not favor a blanket transfer of Palestinians, which reeks of Hitler's Judenrein in Europe.

As to my belief in God given lands, hell, the Crusaders in the 15th century went to liberate the Holy Land from the infidels, killing Muslim, Arab Christians and Jews on the way, were they right? My God does not want people to murder people. Notice I said murder, for that is the literal translation of the Commandment. My God doesn't say which person shouldn't murder another person, all murder is bad. Were the illegal settlements in the territories right? Not when a group of extremists (on either side) was in charge. When a settlement grew into a town that commenced trade and freedom of movement, that I would suggest is not the same as those of the extremist fringe. Can we agree to that? Take Qalqilya, my spelling is bad. Before the second intifada, probably the first, this West Bank city had a mall, shopping areas, and both Israelis and Arabs shopped and worked there. Because of its geography, [it is less than 2 miles from the city of Kfar Saba in Israel], it was taken into the control of Palestinian terrorists to launch attacks into Israel, and is now a ghost town, behind a wall. Which came first, the terrorists or the wall? Which destroyed the markets at Qalqilya, the Israelis and Arabs who shopped and worked there or the extremists who used it to launch attacks into Israel? This is not an isolated example, there are more.

When you speak of settlers, you need to clarify who and where you are talking about. My post did not equate settlements with defense, it is you who are saying this. Your statement about "killing non-combatants" is specious. You need to tell the families of the people killed in cafes and on buses in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, hotels in Netanya that Israelis are targeted "non-combatants". Did Israel train and send deluded desperate people into Arab lands to kill and maim with the promise of 40 virgins in the afterlife? Non-combatants? Like in Nam, and in Iraq, how can you tell? A previous poster said that suicide bombings only took place in the occupied territories. I would suggest Goggle Earth to locate Tel Aviv, it is NOT in the occupied territories.

And does suicide bombing inside the State of Israel also constitute "defending yourself"? Since when does going to another location, outside of your home and blowing up innocent people at a cafe constitute defending your home. You want to defend your home, stay there and if attacked, defend it. But, if you provoke the attack on your home, then you will suffer the consequences, but it will be in your home. That is defense. Suicide bombing in another place is not defense, it is offensive and terroristic, not to mention counter productive to the greater good.

As to "false version" of history. The Arab League attacked Israel after the State of Israel was declared, under the ruling of the United Nations, of which the Arab League states were members. The State of Israel was not "taken" from anyone, it was established by international law. As to your claim about the "best land". I would suggest you consult Middle Eastern geography texts and maps. Most of the land that were sold to early Zionist settlers, yes, sold, not taken, by absentee Arab and Turkish landlords, was swampy and inhospitable. It was land that those who had lived on it for generations had done nothing with it. I suggest looking at Google Earth even today. Look at the lands that are cultivated and growing and producing between the Jordan and the sea, See who lives there, then look at the lands that are barren and desert and useless, who lives there? If you want to know what the whole region looked like in the late 19th and early twentieth century, it looked like the barren land of today.

And, yes, money was raised and the land was bought, it was not stolen, it was not appropriated. It was not like our country, where good, white Europeans stole, killed, murdered, lied and cheated the natives out of it. So, let's not get too high and mighty as Americans, here. Jesus said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As to torture, America lost the right to that platform in Iraq.

You say that in 1964 the Palestinians started to resist their statelessness. To whom? To Jordan? To Saudi Arabia? Who was their representatives in this? Did they use diplomacy? Did they send suicide bombers into Amman? Where is the documentation of this fact, no really, I want to know, because of the Arab refugees were resisting, it had to be mentioned somewhere and documented. Say, if they were resisting, why didn't they attack Israel in 1964, because your thesis is that Israel is solely to blame for their problems and their current situation, their reactions and therefore the justification for using terrorist tactics to kill "non-combatants." I'd be interested in hearing about this 1964 "mini-intifada".

Since I imagine you have never been to Israel, your assertion about paradise is dismissed out of hand. You do not know. You only know what you have read. Was it total paradise? No, but it was better than it has been since the Yom Kippur War. And, hey, why was there an intifada anyway? Why did Arab leaders force decent hard working Arab citizens to close up their shops and cease to be able to earn a living? The Israelis never cut off a shopkeepers in Bethlehem's ability to sell things and earn money to feed his family. Could it be that by forcing an intifada on hard working people, you could re-direct their anger, propagandize to them, use the Big Lie technique, segregate their information stream, give them less hope in a better life, control them through deprivation and produce an extremist force to do what your legitimate forces could not? [Remember the stated, and never renounced aim of the PLO, and several legitimate Arab states is to never recognize and in fact to wipe Israel off the face of the map] Gee, interesting theory. And, gee, if the subjugated people, the Arab Refugees or Palestinians, found out that peace makes for economic gain, then maybe these people will find out that the perpetual war against someone is not worth it, maybe they were being lied to, and that by working hard, providing for your family and gaining respect for yourself, and living in peace with the people across the street is a good thing, you may actually learn to oppose dictatorial and irrational leaders. If you have enough money to feed your family, get a decent house, if your community can build schools and hospitals, get dependable electricity. you may find out that you've been lied to, that the bogeyman is not the bogeyman after all.

As to indigenous populations and taking their lands, we've already covered that, only to say that Jews have continuously lived in the area known as Palestine for millenniums under various rulers from the Romans to the Turks, they are also indigenous.

And the last point. I have not had the chance to ask every country in the world if that is their point of view, nor have I had the time over the past few hours to research it. Please let me know how you came to that conclusion.

In closing before I go to sleep, I want to add that I will not agree with what you have said, totally, but will agree that you have the right to say it. That CommonDreams, which to me means peace, allows us this forum, I will respect you for the person you are. Thank you for your comments, and I am glad that in this forum, at least, we still can converse with civility even when we disagree.

midblu - "Wrong. That was not Israel. That was Palestinian land that all of the bombs went off in"

What you say is that Israel has no right to exist at ANY BORDER, Not even Tel Aviv, Haifa, Natania, Afula or Jerusalem. According to you- all of Israel is an occupied land.

As long as people will hold uncompromising, one sided opinion like you, the conflict will never end. There are other historical truth you know...
May I ask which country you are from? And why is your country less occupation than Israel?

midblu - "Israel has ignored 40 binding U.N resolutions since 1968"

As far as I know, there is not even one single UN binding resolution that Israel ignored.
You are probably referring to General Assembly resolutions, that according to UN charter are not binding. (Unlike security consul resolutions which are).

midblu - "I hope Hamas starts resisting Israeli occupation over in the West Bank as well"

When you say "resisting", I assume you mean firing rockets at civilian cities and towns, sent suicide bombers against schools buses, restaurants, night clubs full with teens etc. Which according to Amnesty International are crime against humanity. Am I correct that these are your desires?

"That is the view of every country in the world outside the US and Israel."

Reality is not dependent on consensus, but the facts. All those other nations are wrong, just like when most countries practiced slavery, and they were all wrong for doing so.

What is the source of this astonishing cruelty?

""Continuing to fight a well equipped army with weapons that results in such results is a good reason to quit choosing violent resistance."

This is the statement of a coward."

Well reasoned point. Can you come up with any reasons other than personal attacks to rebut my point?

If there is anyone like you on the Palestinian side, it is clear why they are reticent to choose non violence. They see it as you do, ignoring what it actually takes to face tanks and rockets empty handed and in peace.

phthenry "Israel has killed 3 times as many Palestinians as the other way around. ...Who is actually guilty of not wanting peace?"

In World war II - the USA has killed 20 times more Japaneses as the other way around.

The reason more Palestinians are killed are a result of Israeli military superiority in the conflict.
It is wrong to judge one's willingness toward peace based only on body count.

The questions you have to ask yourself is who is the aggressor. Who is unwilling to compromise. I can understand why it is difficult for you to gasp that the underdog can actually be the uncompromising aggressor.

"You make it sound like Palestinians commit terroristic acts for pure fun. I have heard this b.s so many times "only if these wretched Palestinians would stop resisting (read surrender) Israel would take the foot off their collective necks"."

It seems to me you are having difficulty with responding to my comments instead of someone elses. I said nowhere to stop resisting. I simply said to choose non violent means. Everything else you added from some script in your own head.

It must be incredibly difficult to apply accurate judgement to the ideas of others when you cannot get past what you paste in for them. I'd give a shot to judging instead, what it is they are actually saying. I suggest you make one heck of a lot of mistakes this way, and if discussion never seems to get beyond the same circles with you, it may be due to this inherently flawed process.

"It is the occupation chicken that laid the terror egg."

No it's not. Pals are not robots and automatons with only programmed responses without choice and responsibility for those choices. They are not subhuman children, they are people with minds, choices, and responsibility for those choices.

The chicken that laid the terror egg is the *choice* to use terror as a method, and the acceptance of it as valid. That is the cause of terror. There are oppressed and occupied people all over the world and have been for a long, long time. Only a few of them choose targeting non combatants as fully intentional primary targets.

IF the Pals were not responsible for their choices and or terror was not a choice, ALL peoples in this situation would choose terror. They do not, because it is a choice, a choice based in the idea that it is acceptable.

Therefore in spite of the situation they are in, they hold sole responsibility for choosing it.

"It would be insane not to resist in their situation…up to and including asymmetry warfare….you know what i mean."

Since when did asymmetrical warfare inherently mean targeting busses full of schoolchildren or weddings at a retirement home? You certainly have an odd view of what assymetry is. Most of the time it is viewed like the French resistance, few against many, picking select military targets.

the way you justify it, slaughtering innocents with nail bombs with full intent is somehow acceptable or understandable, when it is neither. Doing so is a choice, and treating it as understandable is why they do it...because they know you'll take it as something they 'have' to do, when it is no such thing.

Yep, just like Sarajevo and we are paying the Serbs (Israel - our 51st state that gets more money than any continental state) to keep up the good work.

Don't want to jeopardize money coming from AIPAC.

In this one Congress is a ready willing and able lovey dovey partner with the executive branch. They'd send our military if we had any more to send.

What happemned to "REMEMBER THE USS LIBERTY" ?

Chris is dead on !!!!!!

The irony about Israel is the utter hell it has created for itself as a result of taking and occupying another's land. It will never know peace. It will never be respected by countries outside its control. It will always have to train its sons and daughters to kill. It will always have to live in fear of destruction. What a choice. Oppression takes a heavy toll on the soul of the oppressed and oppressor alike.

Baltocaveman,

Nice rant. God do you have a racist view of history. In your view, settlements benefit mostly the Palestinians and are mostly benign. That of course is arrant nonsense, as you should know. I have read many human rights reports, as well as descriptions, and know that just about every settlement is filled with fanatical Jews who thinks God gave them the land. For example, I remember watching a slide presentation by a Presbyterian minister who had been to the West Bank and showed how fantical settlers destroyed a native Arab's house. He rebuilt it, and they destroyed it again. Eventually the Arabs had to abandon it.

This case is by no means atypical if you read human rights reports.

Your version of history is false, and you simply repeat falsehoods in your post. No, the Jews did not buy the land from the Arabs. I have heard this again and again. It is false.

The Jews only owned about 5% of the land when the UN partitioned Israel. That is a fact which you can look up.

http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/halbrook.html

Further, the idea that the Israel and the occupied territories were barren until the "Jews made the desert bloom" is racist history. Demographers in Israel have refuted that myth. Believe it or not, Arabs cultivated the land. Your statement that "Jews have continuously lived in the area known as Palestine for millenniums" is really silly. Yes, they have, but they only represented about 5 percent of the population when the Zionists decided to colonize this area at the turn of the century. Your statement is meant to disguise this uncomfortable fact.

Regarding the partitioning of Israel in 1947, you should read the UN history itself. It notes that two ad hoc committees determined that the UN had no right to draw the partition. Further, as I pointed out, the partition alloted land to people who did not own it. Yes, the Palestinians were given the worst of the land, at least if I am to believe everything I have read on the subject, such as Shamir's *The Iron Wall,* and the UN history, which draws on countless historians. Last, resolution 181 was a general council resolution, and not legally binding.

The PLO, or Palestinian Liberation Organization, was formed in 1964 (or there about). That is where I get the idea that the Palestinians started revolting against their status before Israel owned the land. If you knew your history, then you wouldn't ask such a dumb question such as whether or not they used suicide bombers. As I pointed out before, the first suicide bombers did not appear until the 90's sometime. How could you not know this?

I never claimed that suicide bombers inside Israel (or anywhere) amounted to a legitimate form of resistance. But when you say you don't know where I get my idea that all other nations agree that problem lies mostly with Israel, you only need to look at the UN. For example, in 2001, there was a resolution passed stating that Israel was guilty of "deliberate murder" and "torture." 141 nations (or around there) supported this conclusion. Only Israel and the US disagreed. There were about 10 to 15 resolutions passed that year condemning Israel with similar margins.

As we speak, Israel continues to move settlers into the occupied territories. There is no way you can state that Israel wants peace while it continues to steal lands. Nor can you say that Israel wants peace when it continues its brutal tactics.

Or rather, we can say Israel wants peace, but on its unjust terms, the way the US wanted peace with the Native Americans, as long as they abandoned their own land.

Let's just start blaming Iraqis for the violence in their country; makes about as much sense as the drivel here....

How is it that any Jewish person in the whole world has the right to "return" to Israel, but Israel will never let Palestinians that were thrown out of their homes come back?

Apologists cry that Palestine will not recognize Israel. If by my very existence you were paralyzed from the waist down, wouldn't you want me dead, too?

For a religious country, they seem to love violence and savagery, which is the only thing they ever offer to the Palestinians.

People always say Israel has a right to exist. Is that a right that every country enjoys? If not, on what is that right based? If not, then shouldn't having special rights mean making special sacrifices, like accepting a little less land than you think the Invisible Cloud Being promised you? Why won't Israel be reasonable? When will it decide to end all the suffering? How deluded does someone have to be to think Palestine controls its own destiny? Anyone who thinks so has another agenda to sell....

mntGoat

Please read what I wrote. I said that the Israelis are guilt deliberately killing non-combatants. For example , when Doctors Without Borders did an autopsy on the Palestinians killed right after Sharon visited the Temple Mount, It found that a disproportionate number of wounds to the head. It determined that since soldiers aim for the body, the victims were deliberately killed, not killed in self-defense.

Numerous human rights groups have come to the same conclusion. Am I to believe human rights groups, or a poster who can't even get is facts straight on Israel. (see below)

I find it really ridiculous that you would say sticks and stones are weapons. It sounds like you nothing about the conflict and are just saying anything to back up what you believe rather than actually examining facts. During the first intifadah, children-yes, children--would conront tanks with sticks and stones. Thee was certainly no danger. It was a ritual they would perform as a protest against the illegal occupation of Isarel of their lands. Israel would respond with live bullets. It was shown around the world and Israel was shamed into finally negotiating, though it did so in bad faith.

You know of no resolutions that Israel has violated? That shows you know nothing about the sitituation. I mean, really!

http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2002/0210unres.html

Here is a list. Note especially resolution 252:

Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

2. Strongly deplores the failure of Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967, 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968 and 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and the consensus statement by the President of the Security Council on 11 November 1976 2/ and General Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July 1967, 32/5 of 28 October 1977 and 33/113 of 18 December 1978;

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/c25aba03f1e079db85256cf40073bfe6/ba123cded3ea84a5852560e50077c2dc!OpenDocument

Israel, within the pre 1967 borders is an accomplished fact. All 6 million people are not going to get into boats and leave. That is like expecting the Poles that live past the Oder river to pack up and give the land back to the Germans. It is not going to happen, and no amount of talk will change this fact. The arab armies have failed in every attempt to make this happen militarily. The question then becomes the status of the territory conquered by Israel in the war of 1967. Israel has complicated any transfer to the Palestinians by the ill-advised building of settlements- making necessary (to them)the maintaining of checkpoints,ect. The Palestinians have complicated any transfer by maintaining that ALL of the land "from the river to the sea" is theirs and electing a government (Hamas) with the stated goal of their charter the destruction of Israel- thereby giving Israel the choice of ignoring them or commiting collective suicide. Meanwhile, both sides jockey for favor from world opinion. It seems to me that a viable Palestinian state can't be formed with intervening settlements in the way, and a recognized state (Israel) cannot negotiate with a government whose sole reason to exist is the destruction of the state that it is supposed to negotiate in good faith with.

All the while, the Arab (including the wealthy gulf states) countries continue to use the palestinians as pawns, keeping them jammed into camps,denying them citizenship, and letting the U.S. and Europe provide the vast majority of the funding to keep these people alive.

MtnGoat - you're a disgrace. Lobotomised cretin. I'm sick of reading shit from no-nothings like you who reproduce the party line for reasons of tribal allegiance. A population expropriated, killed off, subjugated for three generations, and you blame iton the victims. grotesque. Without the support of gauleiters like you the criminal state of Israel would have been dismantled years ago.

evanj, like MtnGoat, I also support Israel right to exist (A long side a Palestinian state) against those who seek to destroy it. Make love, not war. Learn to live and let live. Don't hate.

phthenry, about the UN, I once calculated that within the corridors of the UN, the victims of Israel are getting 3000 times more attention than average victim on this planet. This is not random statistical error. There is something wrong with the way the UN is settings it's priorities. All human beings should be equals. The sad truth is that the main function the UN turned out to be is a stage for dictators to bash at the only Democracy in the middle east.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEw0lZ3k_Y&mode=related&search=