What’s So Funny about Peace, Love and Understanding?
When it was announced that the Dalai Lama was coming to Madison in May, a few of my friends snatched up the pricey tickets right away. I had heard the Dalai Lama speak five years ago during his last visit, and it was so difficult to hear him that I decided to stay out of the ticket-buying frenzy this time around. But when a friend of mine (a Maoist no less!) called me last Friday morning to offer me free tickets to the public talk that afternoon, I couldn’t resist.
The Dalai Lama’s speech, “Compassion: The Source of Happiness,” touched on many topics. But what really struck me was his take on secularism. He said some people think moral ethics must be based on religious faith. But we must be able to promote human values, such as compassion, forgiveness, and tolerance, without talking about religion.
Many people think secularism is a rejection of religion, he said, but it can mean respect to all religions and to non-believers. So there you go, a Buddhist monk sounding the horn for secularism.
At the end of his talk, he responded to questions submitted by the audience. The last question asked if he was optimistic, what with all the violence and terrorism in the world. “Yes, I am optimistic,” he said. The desire for peace is strong nearly everywhere. “Since the Iraq War, many people in U.S. think using force” is not a good idea, he said.
“Many problems we face are man-made,” he added, so it follows logically that we must have the ability to solve these problems.
“The twentieth century was a century of violence,” he said, with “more suffering, complications and division.” But the twenty-first century can be a century of disarmament. “We must find solutions through peaceful means,” the Dalai Lama said. “This century will be more peaceful, more compassionate, more patient, I think.”
A few hours later I was walking in my neighborhood and bumped into a friend of mine. I told him how much I enjoyed the Dalai Lama’s talk. Unsurprisingly, this pal proceeded to bring up the CIA’s funding of Tibet fighters [1]. Nothing like an angry leftist to take the joy out of seeing the Dalai Lama.
This wasn’t the first time an activist friend had brought up that critique of the Dalai Lama. I remember hearing the same thing when he visited Madison five years ago. I’m not sure where this negative and almost visceral reaction stems from. Maybe it stems from the intolerance of too many self-avowed secularists to anything religious.
I have no idea if the CIA is continuing to fund Tibetan groups. But it seems like Congress
has no idea either. The Washington Post [2] reports that the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence said the CIA violated the law last year when it failed to report covert activity.
Unfortunately, intolerance rages just about everywhere. Believers and non-believers too often mirror each other in that regard.
The May issue of Glamour [3] magazine includes an interview with Mariane Pearl, the widow of slain Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. A movie based on her book “A Mighty Heart” will hit theaters in June. In the interview, she’s called “a clear voice of tolerance and dialogue” for how well she handled herself after Daniel was murdered by Islamic extremists in Pakistan in 2002. Mariane Pearl responds: “Well, that kind of self-control . . .hasn’t been easy for me. I always go back to one moment: In Karachi, when Captain [the Pakistani officer who was leading the investigation into Danny’s kidnapping] came to the house and told me what happened, my reaction was that I grabbed an AK-47 from one of the guards. In that single moment, I knew how easy it would be to kill someone. If they had brought a person who was guilty [of Danny’s murder] to the house, I would have shot him. But then I would have destroyed everything Danny believed in, and everything we did as a couple—and I couldn’t do that. Putting that gun down was my biggest act of courage.”
Where, she is asked, does that strength come from?
Mariane replies: “Partly from Buddhism. I’ve been practicing since I was 17. And, you know, after Danny’s death, all the years of chanting kicked in, and I knew instinctively that anger and revenge wouldn’t take me anywhere. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt, though. I miss Danny. The pain is real, but the sense of purpose is bigger than the pain.”
Elizabeth DiNovella is Culture Editor of The Progressive magazine.
© 2007 The Progressive
“I have no idea if the CIA is continuing to fund Tibetan groups.”
Well, this is exactly the problem. I don’t know anything,
I don’t do anything about injustice. I just talk a lot
using many lofty, beautiful words, and I want you to believe that this way all the problems of the world will be solved.
No, they won’t.
Elizabeth in in good company. It was Stalin who decorated his entire huge country with “PEACE TO THE WORLD”
A truly repulsive, aggressive and ignorant piece. Elizabeth doesn’t know many things, including the fact that Buddhism isn’t actually a religion. Go and study, idiot.
Can someone explain to Elizabeth who Stalin was, how peaceful he was, and why he covered his country with “MIRU MIR.”
I don’t enjoy dealing with arrogant and ignorant idiots.
Eurobelle: You are one angry person. What exactly does this article have to do with Stalin at all? As to the CIA funding whoever, read the next line of her article: It says that Congress doesn’t know, either.
What would you have her do that YOU aren’t doing? What exactly should she be espousing, the murder of an entire country or religious viewpoint? Would THAT make you happy? Is that what you consider “doing something”, or did you have something else in mind? Nuking someone, perhaps?
I have news for you, Stalin died a LONG time ago. I doubt that the Dalai Lama ever met him. I’m pretty sure that he doesn’t share much in the way of political ideology with Stalin. Stalin ran other people out of their own countries, the Dalai Lama was kicked out of his. I really don’t see what Stalin has to do with this discussion at all.
Some of the rest of us don’t like dealing with those who would rather twist the discussion to something else rather than deal with the topic. And you are still one angry person. Get over it, it’s not helping much unless you aim it at something and turn it into something positive. And before you go blaming the author of the article for not living up to your expectations, try doing so yourself.
WJM
Yes, I am. The problem is that I am the only one in this country. I can assure you there are reasons to be angry.
Only you brainwashed by … well, everybody, don’t know it.
Elizabeth is a Brownie of the American left (ignorant, but the right approach - hypocritical proclaiming of love, peace and understanding).
She is ignorant - ignorant of everything, like you you?
Her piece a sample of pure demagoguery. For your information, Stalin was good at it too.
For the world’s sake, go and study, demagogical and hypocritical idiots.
Sorry, I’d rather kill myself than function of the level of this garbage.
Dalai Lama is right. moral, ethics can be secular. they do not have to be cloaked in ideologies such as religion, capitalism, socialism, ect.. george lakoff layouts out a model, in his book ‘moral politics, that proves the dalai lama right. i doubt that the c.i.a. asked the dalai lama’s permission before they funded tibetian rebels.
Sorry eurobelle, now not only am I not responding to you; I’m skipping over your posts. Your an idiot!
Such a loss, Bill.
Sure, one has to say just five time a day “Peace, love, understanding,” then to spend the day enriching his boss,
mobbing his colleagues, in general, kissing up, kicking down.
The peace will come.
Sure, you idiot.
It’s not about the Dalai Lama. It’s about Buddhism. After 40 years following a Catholic life I started leading a Buddhist life. Now, almost twenty years later I am still happy and content. I found Buddhism to be more of a philosophy than a religion.
Hoa binh
Namvet, your happiness is dear to me.
I am happy that in spite of 47 million of uninsured, you’re happy.
I am happy that in spite of wage slavery in this country and elsewhere you’re happy.
I am happy that in spite if this country’s aggression, you’re happy.
I am happy that you’re happy.
I am not angry anymore.
Eurobelle, as sometime you can be an interesting read there are times like these that I wonder are you using drugs? Drinking? And if your not maybe you should, your anger at this article is the point of the piece. It is not Buddhism’s fault that Stalin or you have problems. And the faults of this country are not the Dalai Lama’s, low wages are from the corporations. You should try meditation you need it.
Many destructive cults are intractably opposed to any ideas, practices or beliefs that center people and free their minds. Some of those cults masquerade as left political parties. Perhaps eurobelle belongs to one of these?
There are in fact human questions not addressed by your Central Committee!
People who can understand and master their anger can use it more effectively than those who are compelled to act it out in every context, appropriate or not.
Well,
No, I don’t drink, no, I don’t take drugs, and unlike you
I am not afraid to think.
You are demonstrating why the country is in shape it is.
Continue practicing demagoguery.
Good luck to your children.
I’ll just address one idiotic statement.
“And the faults of this country are not the Dalai Lama’s, low wages are from the corporations.”
In other places, in other times, when people were educated and not medicated like you are, they dealt with low wages.
I don’t understand why “Eurobelle” is being allowed to disrupt every blog discussion on this site, including personal attacks on other commenters. Isn’t anyone overseeing the comments on this site to prevent that sort of thing?
Frankly, I don’t care.
I know, I know, idiots are supposed to be called wisemen.
War is peace, etc.
Everything, but reality.
Methinks Eurobelle is a TROLL! Haha!
I think eurobelle’s first comment is right on the mark and what an incredible shame that people are attacking instead of engaging for real with this content. Calling eurobelle angry and suggesting that these critiques come from drinking or drug use is a good way to evade the realities and complexities here. People keeping their heads in the sand — why?
So. Back to the content:
eurobelle wrote, quoting the article:
“I have no idea if the CIA is continuing to fund Tibetan groups.”
Well, this is exactly the problem. I don’t know anything,
I don’t do anything about injustice. I just talk a lot
using many lofty, beautiful words, and I want you to believe that this way all the problems of the world will be solved.
No, they won’t.
I agree and so glad to see this as the first reply to this article!
Ah, but eurobelle, don’t you know that privileged people (especially white people, I said it and I guess that makes me worse than you) glory in this kind of New Age lofty talk and ignorance, here in the US at least. It is considered spiritually enlightened — by some twisted terms — to separate these things. That way adherants don’t have to deal with the “difficult” stuff and anyone who brings it up can be dismissed. Protects those delicate sensibilities.
Concern with painful political realities (not to mention critiques of cultural appropriation) are sooo not acceptable inside these worldviews. And anyone who objects must have some sort of “intolerance … to anything religious.” Or apparently, according to others commenting here, be “angry” or on some substance. In this worldview, there are no political realities or power dynamics in this perspective, it’s all one big vague symmetrical lack of clarity.
Sigh. And no, I myself don’t have a problem with/intolerance to the spiritual/religious layer of reality. But ignorance, appropriation and word-illusions masquerading as something spiritual or religious? THAT I have a problem with.
Can you all engage with the actual content instead of attacking eurobelle? Can you? There is something important here, why is it so hard to go there?
“Methinks Eurobelle is a TROLL! Haha!”
Well, I am beginning to wonder myself
If it’s a place with a mission to help the establishment to silence everyone, to medicate everyone, to redirect attention from the real issues, such as lack of health care and wage slavery … then well, I am not doing what I am supposed to do.
eurobelle, there are some underlying cultural assumptions operating on this website. If you’re challenging them rather than adhering to them (and I haven’t really been following a lot of the discussions so I don’t know) … but if you are challenging them in what you post, then you are not in line with the flow of the site.
Whether and why to post in this kind of situation depends on why you came here to begin with. What are you supposed to do?
“Whether and why to post in this kind of situation depends on why you came here to begin with. What are you supposed to do?”
That’s my point exactly. In this blog and others that are supposed to be a give and take discussion, eurobelle has simply been spewing garbage, not discussing, and calling other posters “idiots.” “Why she came here to begin with” is clearly not to learn anything from the other posters or even to express clearly why she believes what she believes. If have something serious to contribute, eurobelle, why don’t you say it seriously and respectfully? or can’t your points stand on their own merits? In every blog in which you post, you call other posters “arrogant.” But you’re the one who claims to know everything without offering anything whatever of substance
to substantiate your arguments.
Sporos,
This forum is supposed to be for the progressives.
This word has a certain meaning, and I believe I have a traditional understanding of the word.
Unfortunately, instead of articles and discussions of such
traditionally progressive issues as labor, unions, universal health care, etc., I see most of the time very regressive
quietist appeals to be nice, nice, nice, and happy, happy, happy with reality (would you agree not traditionally progressive approach) and clearly xenophobic expressions (would you agree also not traditionally progressive).
Unfortunately, I have to finish here. I guess you know where I stand.
The Dalai Lama emphasizes respect for all humans.
Eurobelle, I don’t quite understand your complete message here, but I certainly respect you and your concerns for things like millions living without healthcare.
Everyone else, if you differ with this person let’s not use derogaotory comments. It gets us nowhere. The Dalai Lama would frown upon it. Peace begins with respect, tolerance, and attempts to develop unity amidst diversity.
“Peace begins with respect, tolerance, and attempts to develop unity amidst diversity.”
I can assure you that peace begins with sensible institutions
which secure a more egalitarian society.
Slogans are good, but a civilized society is better.
dakotalin, perhaps *you* could actually engage with the content of this discussion.
I don’t know what your comments are like in other discussions, but here what I see is you focusing a whole lot on eurobelle as individual and not engaging with the content raised by eurobelle — or myself for that matter.
eurobelle, I myself personally see “progress” as a culturally flawed assumption/perspective so I don’t worry so much about what kind of “progressive.” But I can see where there would be clashes if that word has positive political meaning to you — given the fact that commondreams names itself that way (in terms of “the progressive community”) but is not what you understand that to be.
I myself feel like looking critically into “what is progressive” would probably be interesting, and certainly a deeper and more critical discussion than most of what I see on this site. But I also know that most groups inside this cultural system don’t want to really get down into looking too hard at the underlying practice-based meanings and assumptions, because it gets pretty uncomfortable in many cases.
I’ll admit it, and I suppose that I’m wrong for feeling this way, but many times I feel that a lot of people who embrace Buddhism do so because it’s a trendy rock-starish thing to do. Many of them just come off as flakes to me. It’s almost become like Scientology. Not that I think Buddhism itself is a bad thing.
Of course, I’m always equally skeptical of people who proudly and loudly proclaim themselves to be Born Again Christians. Everyone of those folks seem to have a checkered past, people in my own family included.
“Can you all engage with the actual content instead of attacking eurobelle?”
Well, she has a tendency to attack other people.
“I don’t do anything about injustice. I just talk a lot
using many lofty, beautiful words,”
And what do YOU do to heal the world’s ills?
“and I want you to believe that this way all the problems of the world will be solved.
No, they won’t.”
I don’t think the author believes that Buddhism is humanity’s cure
“Elizabeth in in good company. It was Stalin who decorated his entire huge country with “PEACE TO THE WORLD”
Equating an author of a piece you didn’t like with a mass murderer. Niiiice.
“A truly repulsive, aggressive and ignorant piece.”
Uh what?
“Elizabeth doesn’t know many things,”
And you’re Ozymandias?
“including the fact that Buddhism isn’t actually a religion.”
I guess Islam, Judaism, and Catholicism aren’t religions either?
“Go and study, idiot.”
Wow.
“Unfortunately, instead of articles and discussions of such
traditionally progressive issues as labor, unions, universal health care, etc.,”
I see those articles here all the time.
“I see most of the time very regressive
quietist appeals to be nice, nice, nice, and happy, happy, happy with reality (would you agree not traditionally progressive approach) and clearly xenophobic expressions (would you agree also not traditionally progressive).”
I think you’re blind. If you don’t like the site, and it isn’t progressive enough for you, move on. This site is for everyone, including non-progressives or folks in the middle who imo need to view this site and participate moreso than the already converted. Preaching to the choir doesn’t help much.
Oh well, Eurobelle thinks I’m a Nazi because of my lack of support for Israel. I don’t know why I care. lol
“I can assure you that peace begins with sensible institutions
which secure a more egalitarian society.”
Like in Israel?
“I don’t do anything about injustice. I just talk a lot using many lofty, beautiful words,”
There’s a real critique here as I see it. How do these kinds of approaches use words to perpetuate blurring and masking the reality in which we live, and how does such blurring/masking get in the way of actual struggle for change in specific contexts?
And at a (deeper in my perspective) level, the disconnection between words and accountability to truth is also important to look at as it it pervasive inside the entire cultural system that this discussion is taking place in.
iwarrior, you wrote: this site is for everyone, including non-progressives or folks in the middle who imo need to view this site and participate moreso than the already converted. Preaching to the choir doesn’t help much.
This may sound like a stupid question, but I am asking it seriously. Do you see this site primarily as a place where progressives teach other people (non-progressives and folks in the middle)?
Is it a matter of individual conversion? Is commondreams like a political “mission” (in the Christian sense)?
If so, where do progressives go to get pushed and learn? Do the “already converted” have no need to learn?
“I can assure you that peace begins with sensible institutions
which secure a more egalitarian society.”
Absolutely, which is why much of what I present to the public is about the essential need to transform our economic systems in order to establish justice, which is the basis for peace.
I think the concept of sharing - an equitable redistribution of world resources among nations - is something that you could tie into every religion’s teachings, as well as seculars in society who care equally as much about moral issues like needless hunger (in a world of plenty), extreme poverty, homelessness, lack of basic healthcare for all, water rights, pollution, fossil fuel vs. renewable energy and global warming.
There is ground for all of us to unite upon. We need to find this platform as a progressive movement. I would hope we all agree on the need for economic justice as a means to global stability. This has proven to be true and it increases in importance every day - One.org campaign, Millenium Development Goals, Iraq, Afghanistan Palestine, Darfur, Nigeria, Haiti, etc… people are hopeless and restless when they live in poverty and deprivation.
Sporos,
Your question is ok (although the answer seems to be obvious),
and I’ll try to answer it tomorrow.
Iwarrior wants to turn this this progressive website into a site for antisemites only (Nur fuer Nazi). I stopped reading antisemitic garbage of this Larouchman. For information about iwarrior’s views, see some previous Jew related threads, and I’ll promise I’ll provide some competent comments later.
“This may sound like a stupid question, but I am asking it seriously. Do you see this site primarily as a place where progressives teach other people (non-progressives and folks in the middle)?”
I think that’s a very valid question. I think that yes, it could and should be a place to teach. I don’t think that it should be the sole purpose of Common Dreams, but it should be part of it.
I love this site. It gives people on the left side of the fence ammo. I can’t tell you how many times I have posted articles from and links to this site in discussions on message boards with conservatives. And I’ve found that I’ve helped at least some fence-sitters see how things really are.
“Is it a matter of individual conversion?”
I think it can be.
“Is commondreams like a political “mission” (in the Christian sense)?”
Again, I think it can be. It doesn’t have to be it’s only purpose. I mean, isn’t the right-wing media on a mission also?
“If so, where do progressives go to get pushed and learn?”
They can come here also. It should be for everyone. Even many of the people who aren’t progressive are being left behind also.
“Do the “already converted” have no need to learn?”
Of course not. I learn things here all the time.
EDIT-Actually, if I do have a problem with this site, and it would be a problem with the left in general, is that it doesn’t engage ordinary people enough. In fact, sometimes I think that the left puts ordinary people off much of the time, which is unfortunate, since the left has always been on the side of ordinary people.
Sometimes, and maybe I am wrong, but I feel as if most of the people who work and write for the site, as well as the people who post, are insulated by academia.
I mean, I’m a blue-collar guy who didn’t finish college, and there are times when I feel as if I don’t belong here. Not that it’s done on purpose. But that’s just the way I feel at times. Sometimes I’m made to feel by people on the left that I shouldn’t be progressive. Maybe that’s just in my head or due to my insecurities. And I don’t fall in line with all things “liberal” either, but that’s a whole other topic.
Regardless of that, I still feel as if I’m on the right team.
And that The Right really has nothing to offer me or most other Americans.
“Iwarrior wants to turn this this progressive website into a site for antisemites only (Nur fuer Nazi).”
Oh please. Eurobelle, you’re really being silly here. I don’t want to change this website at all.
“I stopped reading antisemitic garbage of this Larouchman. For information about iwarrior’s views, see some previous Jew related threads, and I’ll promise I’ll provide some competent comments later.”
Ok, if you want to see me in that way, fine. I really don’t care. I know what I am and what I am not. It’s just that for someone who rakes people over the coals for supposedly being less compassionate, you sure seem to support Israel, which doesn’t seem to give a rat’s dropping for Palestinians. I can’t help but find that hypocritical, especially when you come off as so self-righteous.
1990
Bill Moyers interviewed the Dalai Lama for a special on religion and the environment. There were a few other religious leaders invited to speak. A Catholic priest, a protestant minister, a rabbi, a muslim cleric, an aborginal shaman of North America. The first four talked about how people were superior to Nature but needed to respect Nature and be stewards–and used the shaman as an example. The shaman spoke much like the others–saying that Nature was subservient to humans as decided by the Creator.
Then the Dalai Lama spoke–he talked about how insects and blades of grass were in harmony with nature–but humans? He made a firm head shake and mocked human arrogance while doing it with a smile. Basically–he showed why Eastern mysticism is an adult religion–while the rest are stuck in childish understandings of the world.
kelmer,
Is buddhism your area of expertise?
Recently, someone was promoting Confucius for us, ironically in a thread “Democracy and Education.”
I asked him whether to be truly and really democratic we need to import Chinese emperors or the Bushies are fine.
I never received the answer.
kelmer,
I have a similar question to you:
If you are an expert, please tell us what in Eastern reality is so appealing to you (egalitarianism, democracy, respect for the poor, respect for the women, treatment of children etc.) that you would recommend.
Sporos,
I know I have to answer some question, but I can’t find it.
I’ll try to answer … something.
Two things:
-Yes one can (and must now) to fight for economic equality (I think it’s to late - some new NAFTA was just approved) and present ideals.
-I have a problem when in a society with such insane disparities the victims are told to be nice, and behave, and are promised that if they are nice, and behave, everything will be fine. It looks very suspicious to me,
and I have no doubt it’s a form of traditional quietism.
I am still shocked (I guess I have to stop being shocked)
when pacification is done not only by liberals, but by the people who call themselves progressives.
It’s sadly amusing how hysterically people who are interested in pacification are trying to suggest various themes from various religions (usually exotic to most -totally out of context - intellectual or “real”), believing that ignorant population will buy.
To iwarrior: Please continue to contribute to this. As far as academic credentials go-maybe I’m in the middle-”just” a BA. Regardless-most on this site have more to learn from you than vice-versa. Some have an imbedded thesauras on overdrive-but we can try to keep up-no?
Now an announcement to all-I’ve narrowed down to 2 possibilities the true identity of eurobelle. 1-someone on staff of this site-to stir the pot. 2-Bob Novak-lost most of his airtime-just can’t relax. Come on eurobelle-at least a sardonic snicker?
eurobelle,
There is no mistaking your disdain for what Elizabeth DiNovella has written. Of course, your opinion of this piece is your prerogative.
It’s one thing that you don’t like what DiNovella has written and that you disagree with other posts in this thread. There’s nothing wrong with an exchange of opposing views.
But it’s quite another thing that you resort to pompous, condescending sarcasm and insults as a way of ‘presenting’ your point of view.
You said above, “I don’t enjoy dealing with arrogant and ignorant idiots.” Considering the tone and manner of your posts in this thread, you should be careful that you’re not turning into one of them.
You also said above, “Slogans are good, but a civilized society is better.” I couldn’t agree more. Perhaps it’s time for you to practice what you preach.
comments here to: eurobelle, then iwarrior, then klever, then a PS (cause I can’t help it!) to kelmer on his Bill Moyers learnings:
1. eurobelle, I respect your sensitivity to what you are calling pacification. I feel it here too, though maybe from a somewhat different angle. I am not shocked, but as I said I don’t have the same feeling about “progressive” as you do. Well, actually, you know, maybe sometimes I am kind of shocked. But not for me because it’s self-identified progressives. Also — %%^#$&*((!!! [loud swearing] re: NAFTA and its evil policy children.
2. iwarrior, thank you for answering my questions and especially for the reflection in your added edit.
3. klever: Well, then since I find value in the issues eurobelle is raising here, what do your conjectures about eurobelle’s identity make me?
4 (the PS to kelmer). Okay and - This is kind of a tangent, but maybe not and - Just speaking politically and all, it is IMO likely not the best idea for you to get a perspective on indigenous understandings of “nature” and humanity from an “an aborginal shaman of North America” appearing on the Bill Moyers show. Really and seriously. On *so* many levels.
To Sporos:I also see value in many of the issues that eurobelle raises.My conjectures were meant to be funny. At a minimum I think thay are preferable to calling people ignorant or worse.Actually eurobelle and I agree on a number of points particularly unjust trade agreements and union busting.
to daveg955 - thanks for putting it so well.
Klever,
Ignorant or worse people should be called ignorant or worse.
I see an interesting parallel between the right and left -
the right talks about God and love, the left talks about peace and love.
And then there is reality. Untouched. And very, very ugly.
In other words, the left does exactly what the right wants.
I am not spending more time.
eurobelle,
Responding to your first comment, I wasn’t clear about what in the article angered you. Elizabeth’s attitude toward the angry leftist would probably not be that of the Dalai Lama, who would certainly accept its validity, the concern felt by the leftist. The Dalai Lama doesn’t just spout beautiful words. He travels the world promoting peace. Or is this your point, that words aren’t enough? What else would you do about the CIA?
Dear Eurobelle,
I have been reading your posts for a while now and have resisted responding to them.
You seem to think that everyone else is an idiot.
But YOUR logic is often baffling to me.
You seem to mix together all sorts of facts and information only to come up with conclusions that more often than not seem to me to have little or no bearing on the subject being discussed.
It prevents me from fairly assessing your arguments.
Perhaps I am simply a brain-washed idiot.
Back to the article; it is about how a secular view lets you practice your religion with out imposing your religion on the world. Something “Separation of Church and State” was supposed to address. Teach by example is what the Bible teaches, because you can’t force anybody to do anything; we are finding out. Violence Begets Violence
We who post at Common Dreams are learning how to critique information fed to us in an interactive way. Something new to this world! Lets use it wisely.
I feel we are preaching to the choir and would more than welcome comment from ANYONE OR CORPORATE ENTITY, NGO, etc. That has something to say with out attacking anyone personally.
Finally, we have eurobelle coming through throwing paperwork in the air pointing her finger of blame at anyone. True, this has it’s place, but for someone who professes to know 7 languages and degrees about middle east history, she adds nothing positive!
I now just skip her posts instead of getting drawn into explaining myself to someone who doesn’t have the ability to comprehend.
This was a very good article. The Dalai Lama’s statement about secularism is an important unifying principle. This constant debate about God and religion is divisive. We’re focusing on the differences rather than the commonality. Religion gets too caught up in the letter of the law rather than the spirit of law. Maybe the Dalai Lama is suggesting that we live by a poem of love, light, and kindness rather than a rulebook supposedly handed down by a punishing God. The main problem here is fear. Religion promotes fear of a punishing, external God. Obedience to an external law by threat of punishment is the lowest form of goodness.
The human race must start believing in itself. Put religion aside and believe in the kindness of the human heart. See it, acknowledge it, practice it. We must believe and trust the process of life. It’s a perfect process of alchemy. Imperfection creates perfection. Life’s seeming imperfection is its perfection. The enlightened masters like Jesus live in an imperfect world, perfectly. It’s like marriage.
Life is our Teacher. God is Life. God is existence. Existence is Consciousness. Consciousness has thought, feeling, and energy. God is the Conscious Energy of Love, the Creative Lifeforce of the Universe. And the truth of the matter is we’re all God playing the forgetting game so that we can experience ourselves and discover ourselves anew in a context of free will. With free will comes duality. Joy and pain are the teachers. Both show us what is, and what is not, divine truth. Both religious fundamentalists and atheists can agree upon the golden rule. That’s all we need to practice. Its the only rule Jesus taught because it is has no oppositional force. The golden rule promotes a reciprocal exchange of energy that uplits and builds. The universe was built through reciprocity.
To argue minor points in a meanspirited way as Eurobelle and others are doing here is just another form of war. You want peace? Be peace. You want love? Be love? You want unity? Be unifying. If you think the world is a dark place, be Light. Be the change you wish to see in the world. We can’t use war to bring about fair wages just as we can’t impose democracy in Iraq with bombs and bullets. Beauty, freedom and harmony can’t be created through destructive means. It’s an energy thing and the physics don’t work.
We live in a free country. We have the power to vote. We deserve the politicians we get. We put them there. If messages of peace and fairness could get any political traction, the politicians would be emboldened to stand firm in those ideals. But too often we give in to fear. We let the voices of fear and anger shout down the voice of love. That most of the so-called religious in this country vote overwhelming Republican shows you how disconnected from Love/God we truly are.
The river changes one grain of sand at a time. We’re going through enormous change right now. Consciousness and awareness is accelerating at an amazing rate. Bush has been an unwitting catalyst for positive change. He showed us how darkness works. He threw it right in our faces and the taste is rotten. Like 9/11, sometimes darkness is a better awakener than light.
The best way to positive change is to be practicing idealists. And we don’t need religion to practice ideals. Personally, I feel the presence of the Divine in the silence of meditation or a walk in the countryside. I belive the Silence within is where we find God. The inner life is more important than the outer life. The physical world is just a context for experiencing ourselves. The man that meditates at sunrise does not rise off his mat to go bomb the neighboring village. God is more a feeling - agape - than an intellectual pursuit. Feel God in your heart and the mind will follow. Debating is usually a waste of time as its usually an oppositional exchange of energy rather than a reciprocal exchange. A man does not change his mind unless he’s had a change of heart.
That said, truth, light and love will always be stronger than darkness, anger, injustice. Awareness is rising. Positive change is happening right now. Hope is the fuel of the universe. Evolution to a better world is a higher path than revolution. Revolution is the old way from the old world. We’re beyond that now.
Jeff, I don’t know if you are an idiot or not.
I do know that there are different cultural traditions, and I do know that I am a highly educated person. I don’t know anything about you.
farmer girl,
Actually, I wasn’t talking about Dalai Lama.
The article is idiotic in many ways. It’s particularly sad
that it was published by the Progressive.
If I understand it correctly, you all have now a new masterpiece by Jimmyrrow.
Enjoy it.
There’s a huge difference between intelligence and wisdom.
Intelligence comes from the mind and like the mind it can be used creatively and destructively.
Wisdom comes from the heart. Wisdom is forged in love. Wisdom chooses only that which sustains, enhances, or honors life and the human condition.
There are many uneducated men that are wise. They make better leaders than the intelligent men with the empty, fearful hearts.
Two intelligent leaders engage in war like a match of wits on a chessboard to gain material treasure.
Two wise leaders sit down and make peaceful resolution to prevent the spillage of blood for they know that true treasure lies in the heart.
We always have that choice. As the Dalai Lama says, all of the worlds problems are man made. We chose our way in, we can choose our way out.
Jim,
Are you able to type anything which is not trivial and aggressive at the same time, or to put it bluntly - not primitive?
I stand firm in what I wrote. I wouldn’t change a word.
Eurobelle,
I do not consider myself to be an idiot.
Nor do I perceive you to be an idiot.
I have not devoted a lot of effort to your postings. I treat them the way I do with all postings which is to skim them. I just don’t have enough time to do otherwise.
My only real point was to say that some of your posts have left me wondering exactly what you meant to tell us.
My confusion at times has left me unable to decide whether I agree with you viewpoint or not.
Next time just ask for clarification.
That simple.
Eurobelle,
I shall do just that.
But only if I have first put forth sufficient time into it to do my best to follow your argument.
As I said I often have the time for only a cursory run through of postings on the Web.
And thanks for the smiley face….we could all use more of them these days:)
Ok, Jeff
I’ll be honest - there are problems.
- This country needs civilized institutions, not Dalai Lama.
You don’t know that - a biiiiiiiig problem. Attacking those who probably understand the needs of this country (so few of them) as Elizabeth did is idiotic, repulsive etc.
- Like so many other Americans you have a totalitarian lack of sensitivity to demagoguery, and you believe that the more beautiful words (pompous, pretentious etc.)are used the better, and reality doesn’t matter - a huuuge problem.
Without your limitations you wouldn’t need my argument at all - the article is so obviously flawed.
Actually, I don’t think I was able to present an argument -
I just couldn’t stop vomiting.
Eurobelle,
How in the world can you possibly know what I do or do not know?
How can you know that I “have a totalitarian lack of sensitivity to demagoguery”?
Or for that matter my “limitations”?
I agree that you seemed to stumble a bit in presenting a coherent argument. But I wouldn’t presume to know the reason for that.
I also will not attempt to convince you or anyone else of my intelligence or education. It is pointless and boring.
But I am truly astonished by the level of arrogance and egotism you expressed in your last posting.
You sound like such an angry person.
I guess it works for you but I would not want to carry a belly full of bile like that around all the time. Maybe lashing out like that provides something of value to you.
If so have at it, but for the record I certainly have no NEED of your argument for or against anything.
Eurobelle,
I don’t know who or what you really are but you seem a bit unhinged.
Your parrot-like repetition of catch phrases brings into question your “vast intellect and education”.
And the fact that you post at all hours of the day and night implies that you are probably not gainfully employed.
You ARE kinda funny, but not that funny.
More pathetic than anything else.
Good Luck….I suspect you will need it.
Everyone is of course entitled to their opinions and until the war between EB and anyone who disagrees with EB, I used to read all of the comments, whether I agreed with them or not. However, Man these posts are becoming increasingly tedious. I’m tired of having to skip comments from and directed to EB, although sadly or happily I’ve cut my reading down to about 70%.
Jeff Moehring wrote: And the fact that you post at all hours of the day and night implies that you are probably not gainfully employed.
Jeff — this response is not about eurobelle, it’s about your choice to use the above-quoted statement in an argument as an insult.
What kind of Calvinist, capitalist-meritocracy kind of thing is this to say to *anyone*?
Specifically:
–What does it mean, specifically, to be “gainfully employed”? Like …. Any job? Full-time job? Salaried job? Job that pays a certain amount? Job with room for advancement and thus more gain? Job that pays enough to support the basic needs of food, shelter etc? Job that does or does not involve lying and hurting others and perpetuating the horrors of the larger system for one’s own personal gain? etc
–Is being “gainfully employed’ some sort of badge of shining virtue? And if so why? What are the attributes/characteristics of an individual who is “gainfully employed” and why are those attributes so wonderful as to make lack of such a status an insult that you would use like this?
These are not rhetorical questions, Jeff. I am interested in your understanding and the underlying ideology/assumptions that would lead you to use such a statement as an insult, and I would appreciate your clarification.
Wow!
Gainfully employed means to me to share with most people the situation where one has to do something for compensation.
I wouldn’t consider it to be a “badge of shining virtue”.
However the lack of gainful employment can mean either some sort of disability, independent wealth or a person whose values condone a freeloading mentality.
Any of which would probably have a bearing on the viewpoints expressed by that person.
For what it is worth as of last Friday I am currently NOT gainfully employed, having been laid off from my previous job. Hence MY ability to respond to posts all hours of the day or night.
If you consider it to be a “Calvinist, capitalist mindset”
to accept the necessity of a reasonable work ethic for a society to prosper then I guess you got me there.
And if it seemed I was insulting EB you might wish to backup and read the bizarre comments made to me in response to what were my attempts to be conciliatory.
I have no bone to pick with this person and no intention of further communication with him/her.
I simply found EB’s derogatory statements about me, whom she/he knows nothing about to be odd and insulting.
And perhaps symptomatic of some underlying emotional or mental instability.
In the world I inhabit it is NOT NORMAL for people to spew the sort of venom that was directed at me with no evidence.
Thanks for your posting:).
Hi Jeff,
I’m trying (in my own understanding, which is part of why your gainfully employed thing struck me) to separate two things:
1. An ethic of contributing to the functioning of a sane society on one hand
2. An ethic of individual gain and valuing acceptability to employers inside a societal context (in my case the United States) that I feel as insane and deeply damaging in its function on the planet.
These get mixed up together a lot but IMO are totally different things.
I am also distressed by how hard you and others seem to be working to cast eurobelle not only as wrong and rude (which, okay, you disagree and don’t like the tone) but specifically as somehow *abnormal and crazy and deviant.* What’s the point of that? To dismiss someone by saying they must not have a job or they most be emotionally unstable or whatever?
Who/what defines what is “normal”? In the United States where I live, it is socially appropriate for people to drive huge gas-guzzling trucks, to plant their children in front of televisions, to be willing to work in a field like PR (for example) and create advertisements that mess with people’s minds. It is normal for people to walk around like dead-eyed dead-souled zombies … but we all try to put up the front of having it together.
There is a HUGE amount of actual “venom” that is spewed politely and in socially acceptable “normal” ways in this insane society — just by supposedly normal ways of life. Strong emotional response (even certain kinds of public breaking down of the zombie-self) in response to the normal deadness is considered unacceptable, while polite compliance with insane rules is supposed to be appropriate and normal.
It’s just … When you and others try to fight someone by invoking how supposedly abnormal s/he is, you ally yourself with cultural assumptions that I think deserve serious questioning.
I think if you look back I haven’t said EB was wrong, simply that I couldn’t quite make out what his/her point was.
And yes I find his/her rudeness unnacceptable and unwarranted by anything I initially said.
A lack of courtesy and derogatory judgements based on no real evidence cannot be depicted as anything other than undesirable behavior and POSSIBLY an indicator of mental or emotional problems.I do not know nor do I care what her/his problems are. Hope this answer suffices.
Best wishes to you both.
Sporos,
I am really impressed. You understand much more than others, you know much more than others.
I think that people bring here their habits, particularly
work habits. I probably don’t have to tell you that American
workplace is totalitarian, and people there (and here occasionally) behave the way people behave in totalitarian circumstances.
In the former Soviet Union, dissidents were, of course, labeled “crazy,” similarly in American workplace the undesirable are labeled “crazy.” As usual, those who repeat the words “peace, love and understanding” more often than others, usually are the most active in mobbing.
Once again, very impressive.
Sporos,
As we know, each unhappy family is unhappy in a unique way, but apparently each totalitarian society is totalitarian in the same way.
Joseph Brodsky was sentenced to 5 years of Siberia for being
a “parasite.” As most probably know, he later received the Nobel Prize for the same “parasitism.”
“In the United States where I live, it is socially appropriate for people to drive huge gas-guzzling trucks, to plant their children in front”
The list is, of course, much longer, and much more terryfying. For example,
- it’s ok to participate in mobbing (and possibly to drive a person to insanity)
- it’s ok to torture the dying on all sorts of machines
(for profit, of course, “Profit, profit ueber alles”)
- it’s ok to try to lure a cancer patient into a debt without return
It’s not ok to do all of the above without a smile.
annac21, the idea that I know more than others feels wrong to me. Maybe it’s because here on commondreams there seems to be a pretty big emphasis on how much everyone claims to know and understand. It’s like some coin of this realm that I don’t really feel like I want to trade in, if that makes sense at all. I’m learning/re-learning some stuff in all of this. Not always or only from people directly, but about how some things work.
I feel this system I live in/under as a horror. And I agree that the list is much longer and more terrifying than the little bits I wrote. And … I’ve deliberately refrained from writing about the stuff that currently gets to *me* the deepest (land theft, genocide, lies related to that — in that realm) because I don’t want to put that kind of energy into this kind of context right now. So in a way, what I have been writing here is really restrained in terms of its feeling-tone.
Anyway, I for one appreciate where this thread of the discussion got to.