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A Court Decision That Reflects What Type of Country the US Is
Even when government officials purposely subject an innocent person to brutal torture, they enjoy full immunity
It's not often that an appellate court decision reflects so vividly what a country has become, but such is the case with yesterday's ruling by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in Arar v. Ashcroft (.pdf). Maher Arar is both a Canadian and Syrian citizen of Syrian descent. A telecommunications engineer and graduate of Montreal's McGill University, he has lived in Canada since he's 17 years old. In 2002, he was returning home to Canada from vacation when, on a stopover at JFK Airport, he was (a) detained by U.S. officials, (b) accused of being a Terrorist, (c) held for two weeks incommunicado and without access to counsel while he was abusively interrogated, and then (d) was "rendered" -- despite his pleas that he would be tortured -- to Syria, to be interrogated and tortured. He remained in Syria for the next 10 months under the most brutal and inhumane conditions imaginable, where he was repeatedly tortured. Everyone acknowledges that Arar was never involved with Terrorism and was guilty of nothing. I've appended to the end of this post the graphic description from a dissenting judge of what was done to Arar while in American custody and then in Syria.
In January, 2007, the Canadian Prime Minister publicly apologized to Arar for the role Canada played in these events, and the Canadian government paid him $9 million in compensation. That was preceded by a full investigation by Canadian authorities and the public disclosure of a detailed report which concluded "categorically that there is no evidence to indicate that Mr. Arar has committed any offense or that his activities constituted a threat to the security of Canada." By stark and very revealing contrast, the U.S. Government has never admitted any wrongdoing or even spoken publicly about what it did; to the contrary, it repeatedly insisted that courts were barred from examining the conduct of government officials because what we did to Arar involves "state secrets" and because courts should not interfere in the actions of the Executive where national security is involved. What does that behavioral disparity between the two nations say about how "democratic," "accountable," and "open" the United States is?
Yesterday, the Second Circuit -- by a vote of 7-4 -- agreed with the government and dismissed Arar's case in its entirety. It held that even if the government violated Arar's Constitutional rights as well as statutes banning participation in torture, he still has no right to sue for what was done to him. Why? Because "providing a damages remedy against senior officials who implement an extraordinary rendition policy would enmesh the courts ineluctably in an assessment of the validity of the rationale of that policy and its implementation in this particular case, matters that directly affect significant diplomatic and national security concerns" (p. 39). In other words, government officials are free to do anything they want in the national security context -- even violate the law and purposely cause someone to be tortured -- and courts should honor and defer to their actions by refusing to scrutinize them.
Reflecting the type of people who fill our judiciary, the judges in the majority also invented the most morally depraved bureaucratic requirements for Arar to proceed with his case and then claimed he had failed to meet them. Arar did not, for instance, have the names of the individuals who detained and abused him at JFK, which the majority said he must have. As Judge Sack in dissent said of that requirement: it "means government miscreants may avoid [] liability altogether through the simple expedient of wearing hoods while inflicting injury" (p. 27; emphasis added).
The commentary about this case from Harper's Scott Horton perfectly captures the depravity of what our Government has done -- and continues to do -- to Arar. His analysis should be read in its entirety, and he concludes with this:
When the history of the Second Circuit is written, the Arar decision will have a prominent place. It offers all the historical foresight of Dred Scott, in which the Court rallied to the cause of slavery, and all the commitment to constitutional principle of the Slaughter-House Cases, in which the Fourteenth Amendment was eviscerated. The Court that once affirmed that those who torture are the "enemies of all mankind" now tells us that U.S. government officials can torture without worry, because the security of our state might some day depend upon it.
I want to add one principal point to all of this. This is precisely how the character of a country becomes fundamentally degraded when it becomes a state in permanent war. So continuous are the inhumane and brutal acts of government leaders that the citizens completely lose the capacity for moral outrage and horror. The permanent claims of existential threats from an endless array of enemies means that secrecy is paramount, accountability is deemed a luxury, and National Security trumps every other consideration -- even including basic liberties and the rule of law. Worst of all, the President takes on the attributes of a protector-deity who can and must never be questioned lest we prevent him from keeping us safe.
This is exactly why I find so objectionable and dangerous the ongoing embrace by the Obama administration of these same secrecy and immunity weapons. Obama had nothing to do with the Arar case -- all the conduct, and even the legal briefing, occurred before he was President -- but he has taken numerous steps to further institutionalize the core injustice here, including in cases that are quite similar to Arar: namely, that the Executive can use secrecy and national security claims to shield himself from the rule of law, even when he's accused of torture and war crimes. That's exactly what happened here, yet again. As Judge Parker wrote in dissent (click image to enlarge)
Identically,
Judge Calabresi -- one of the most respected and non-ideological
appellate judges in the country -- accused the majority of "utter subservience to the executive branch." Surely that's true, but it isn't only the Arar
majority that is guilty of that. It is the nation as a whole --
drowning in infinite claims of "state secrets" and executive immunity
and war necessity and the imperatives of "looking forward" -- that has
meekly acquiesced to the pernicious idea that the President in an
allegedly national security context must never have his actions
disclosed, let alone judicially scrutinized and held accountable, no
matter how criminal, brutal and inhumane those actions are.
**********************
Here's Judge's Sack's description of what was done to Arar in Syria, which accords perfectly with what the Canadian investigation found -- this is what our Government (both the executive and judicial branches) has continuously insisted it can purposely cause to happen without any accountability or even transparency (pp. 13-15):
Judge Sack's equally horrific description of exactly what the U.S. did to cause all of that to happen to Arar is here.
- Posted in
107 Comments so far
Show AllOne more example which demonstrates that our country is indeed a Fascist state.
[One more example which demonstrates that our country is indeed a Fascist state.]
Not so fast. Perhaps you should wiki the entry for Konrad Morgen. Morgen was a German judge who was cashiered into the Nazi party, and assigned the task of investigating crimes in the camps. He investigated the notorious Ilse Koch and her husband Otto Koch, commandant of Buchenwald. The primary investigation was of Otto Koch, who was investigated for have two inmates killed. Ilse was investigated for having human skin lampshades, etc. Morgen assigned several investigators to the camp who stayed there two months interviewing guards and prisoners. Ilse was cleared, the human lampshade stories were pure phantasmagoria. Otto Koch was tried and hung. Morgen investigated more than 800 cases of corruption in the camps. He was known as the bloodhound judge.
Compare that to the investigations and trials at Abu Graib, or Guantanamo. The Nazi state is a model of jurisprudence compared to the lawless US.
You don't have to be thorough to be fascist.
The courts do not exist to protect individual rights but to protect the interests of those that own and run things. That is the fundamental principle on which the Constitution was written.
Kudos for the phrase "Reflecting the type of people who fill our judiciary...." In my professional dealings with over sixty federal and state judges here in Louisiana, I would consider fewer than ten to have been unbiased and competent.
December 2000's case of Bush v. Gore cured me of any positive delusions I might have had about "our" judiciary's ability to dispense impartial justice. I wish more Americans were aware of what unprincipled hacks most judges are. At the end of my career as a lawyer, I would routinely tell my clients: "Well, here's what the statute says...of course, I have no idea whether or not the judge will apply the law."
I would rather have my disputes settled by a Mafia Godfather...there is no pretense of impartiality...and he and his staff aren't paid out of our taxes.
Consider who appointed most of the federal judges we have today: Reagan and Bush. And don't forget papa Bush's contribution - Clarence Thomas.
Good point!
sicker by the day
Although a US citizen through the accident of my place of birth, I am ashamed to be a citizen of this country.
Hey America,
If you will take the time to read Mr. Greenwald's article, you just may get a small 'taste' of what it is like to be a Native American.
On a personal level.
I have taken pride in the fact that after serving this ungrateful country as a US Marine, in 'another war to bring Democracy to those who do not want it'---I began my education.
I learned that as a 'prisoner of war' of the USA I was not a part of any of the many crimes committed, by those who are in control, and that the entire nation, with the exception of a very few people, is corrupt from the inside out, top to bottom, left and right. That without a major
absolute 'reversal': the USA in its present form has little or no chance of survival.
This will of course make many Americans angry, sad, tearful, sentimental, and left with a feeling of great loss.
It will be great relief to the world.
"If the USA were another nation the USA would invade the USA to keep the world safe; and they would be justified."
P.S. I have searched the records and I have not been able to find a single article or word that Mr. Greenwald has written about the many infractions of the legal system in matters concerning the Native American people, who still 'legally own' more that 60% of the geographic territory of the USA. I am sure that I have not 'searched the proper sources'------------but I am open to any and all references.
"Ignorance can be easily remedied with information"
'I am an open vessel'-----
"If the USA were another nation the USA would invade the USA to keep the world safe; and they would be justified."
Politicians may be corrupt but that doesn't make the soldiers and hardworking Americans so. We have a great opportunity next year to change Congress to better represent us. Let's see how far we go to reform Congress. How many Republicans and Democrats supporting these wars that we throw out will determine how well we fought back and said no. I learned from my mistakes and don't plan on repeating them.
So, hypothetically speaking, if I were to offer you $100 000 in tax free, untraceable cash, to turn a blind eye and remain silent while I committed the crime of rape and murder of your neighbor you would turn me down and report me to the police?
Ask most Americans, and they will take the money.
Many soldiers in the US military not only commit crimes against humanity, they video themselves doing it and broadcast it on YouTube. No criminal investigations are EVER conducted. Many hundreds of serving soldiers are known felons, receiving free tactical training they will return to the streets.
Numerous police departments in the US are rife with corruption, bribe taking and on-duty drug dealing. They are more than willing to turn military grade armaments on unarmed protestors at the drop of a hat.
The CIA has a long and continuing history of being the most efficient drug pipeline (Heroin, Cocaine, etc.)into the US.
Many 'hardworking Americans' are willing to do anything to screw their neighbors, just to make a buck.
So to say the US is not systemically corrupt is lying to yourself.
You are correct that there are a lot of Americans who act amorally and some will desperately take a big bribe even at the expense of others. The system is no doubt at fault and I am aware of the CIA and its actions. I will also acknowledge the fact that people of all political spectrums can get paranoid and overprotective beyond sanity online and in the real world so we probably deserve such appellate courts whose judges approve of the "guilty until proven innocent" belief. I was under the impression that for this case, the court went too far beyond what most Americans would approve of.
No, this case is completely typical.
Human rights have been trumped by nebulous fears that 'national security' could be compromised if the people responsible for the commission of this crime against humanity are held accountable in a court of law.
The people who carried out this reprehensible action would unhesitatingly rat out their administrative superiors in a panicked attempt to save their own skins. An the PTB can't have that happen, because they would be facing life in prison at a minimum.
~50% of Americans support torture in some form according to various recent polls. If there was a referendum on whether the US should engage in torture, the answer might very well be Yes, the US should engage in torture.
The politicians are simply reflecting the electorate.
I wrote you a response on polls in this thread.
I did as well. You believe those polls at face value? Who conducted the polls?
I will admit that I too have fallen into the trap of buying into polls that reflect some of my own personal biases but after reading what Jake Newton and Marco Nanto discussed about facts and proving in addition to reading more on George Lakoff and framing, I am reminded that the rightwing has had its own history of doing push polling to discredit even the strongest of socialists such as Bernard Sanders. As progressives, we have to exercise our rights to be given details as to what has been asked and how the questions were framed. I don't want to discredit the polls but getting a closer look at how distorted they really are would give us clues as to who's manipulating what and how. It is generally true that who the public generally elects reflects most of our values but the extents are not always the same. In this case, I thought the court went too far beyond what most Americans would call sound judgment.
I hear you on that, not to mention the high levels of mis-information floating around, largely thanks to the MSM echo chamber. If folks do not have accurate and complete information, how can they form and opinion? We are bombarded with half-truths and stright up lies on a daily basis.
The election and electoral system is another story. It is clear to me that there is a huge gap in the line of democratic accountability in our system and that voters have a very narrow range of choice. For a whole host of reasons. The book I always chime on as a starting point is "Ten steps to repair American democracy" Stephen Hill. He goes into detail.
Saying that people support torture because they are misinformed / uninformed, and saying that people do not support torture are entirely different arguments.
True, yet closely related: just like in any political or economic decision, information is essential. Propagandized societies often make poor political decisions. Mis-informed investors often make poor investements.
Native Son....not to worry. Have you read "Black Elk Speaks?" Native Prophecy states that in the end....whenever the end is, all will be returned to the Native Peoples.
My mother was 1/2 Cherokee...so I suppose I have a vested interest in the outcome. However, for many years now (and after reading another book entitled "Neither Wolf nor Dog"), I have been reluctant to talk about my heritage. It seems that Native Americans disdain those of us with mixed blood. As you may know, the Dawson Cherokee Roles have listings of names of those with Cherokee heritage that goes back just so many years. Many of those names and years were lost and many with Indian heritage are not able to "prove" such heritage. In essence, why should we have to? The U.S. is truly a melting pot. So many different mixtures exist that one would wonder why there should be any conflict at all concerning heritage?! I myself have, with great sadness, stopped looking for my "missing link." I no longer don "dream catchers," arrow heads, or any other "tourist" tokens of romantic/phantastical visions of being an Indian. Why? Because the Spirit (Great) within me testifies for itself. The other parts of me are German, French, English, Polish, and who knows what else?! With that mixture I have the genetic predisposition to just about every error or good known to mankind. What I am trying to say is....we are all really One. At the very end...nothing matters except ..... well, nothing!
Of course the Native peoples were robbed of everything. Of course they were forced to disown their cultural heritage! Is there any dispute about that any longer? And then, to add insult to injury, the "ways" of the Indian have been co-opted by the pale faces because they now seem so "spiritual." All true. I have commented to you before Native Son.....it is your own spirit/soul that should be your major concern. And I would agree with most of what you write even if I did not have a drop of Native blood in me. My gut is jabbed, my solar plexus area set on edge...by some of the bitterness that comes forth in your writings. Revenge is sweet I suppose, but it is not yours to reap.
This country continues it's record of great injustices. Mr. Arar is lucky that Canada owned up to it's part in his horrible treatment. Millions of dollars is small compensation for what was lost by Mr.Arar......(and yes, Native Son....lost also by the Native Peoples, the Black Peoples, the Asian Peoples)....and that is.....feeling safe in one's own skin, trusting authority, enjoying a sound mind without great fears of every strange noise, freedom from all consuming thoughts of atrocities done, freedom to enjoy life without paranoia/delusion/anxiety. There will never be justice for all this lost! Not even if the aggrieved slay every guilty soul left on the planet! Peace and Freedom are "internal" and "eternal." No one and Nothing can take away what is incorporated within ones own soul! Spider Mother weaves the web. We are all entangled.
Nicely put,
It is a massive injustice, however that the many Treaties that have been broken by the Federal govt for over a 100 years. Breaking treaties with Native Americans continues to this very day.
A year or so ago the BLM seized livestock on Native land and then lied and said the land belonged to BLM. Here is an example of the one-sided reporting of the issue that is little more than a repeat of the lies the BLM says. This is all too familiar.
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/SantaFeNorthernNM/BLM_seizes_animals_grazing_on_public_lands
Looting and stealing Native lands and resources is not a thing of the past it continues to this day. This is yet another example of the sham of a legal system we have. If you don't have huge sums of money the legal system is your enemy.
Thank you socialist. Treaties, Constitutions....it doesn't matter. The system is corrupt.....always has been. As you say, it is all a sham. Not only that...human beings have the greatest potential for evil doing imaginable! We also have the greatest potential for good. There are Takers and Givers. We always hear about and feel the repercussions of the Takers, but I don't think we hear enough about the Givers. If our "News" was aimed at encouraging and validating "goodness" we would all be better off. But, the news is geared toward sensationalism and exploitation. The Spirit of the world seems to be a Dark one right now. All I can say is....cultivate the light within and share it without. If we don't do that....the Dark wins!
There are many reasons for the Native American. 'fixation' with Blood Quantum, all of them are illegal*, and are the result of several generations of mental conditioning by the dominate, Anglo American Cultures ---and "Hollywood" is as much to blame as all of 'them'-----combined.
Just one example, the Movie Dances with Wolves was so totally out of realism from the 'historic context' as to be laughable beyond reason. For example, during the Civil War, the Area that the movie depicted was the area that Red Cloud of the Oglala Sioux along with allied Sioux and Cheyenne had burned most of the Forts in the area and any w\"White Man" that had shown up during that period would have been 'dancing with wolves'---i.e. through the 'digestive tract' to be 'Wolf Crap' out on the prairie. He would have been killed---certainly not have been allowed to join the groups.
Unfortunately, Hollywood was not 'called' down on that misrepresentation by the Native American population simply because most of them were not aware of the facts; and the others would rather 'dress up in their regalia and dance for the white folks over at the rodeo' than to press for what is rightfully theirs; by law and treaty and the US Constitution.
I would recommend that you contact my'legal council'at frenchromany@gmail.com. This organization has made a twenty year career of service to Native Americans in the USA and Canada. If your mother was '1/2' Cherokee, then you are a '1/4' which would make you elegible to be recognized as a member of the Cherokee Nation---either Eastern (N.C.)or Western (Okla). First I would recommend that you have your DNA tested, so that you can show---without argument your blood quantum with scientific accuracy. The cost is minimal ($150-$200) and is worth every dime. The NatAm DNA is very distinctive and can be detected very accurately within (+/-) 5%.
The reason so many people are 'not connected' to their NatAm heritage is that USA Government wanted it that way. They never planned for the possibility of DNA---(go figure the USA didn't think things out very well)---so the old wisdom of "The larger the lie the harder it is to hide "----
Then the 'Hollywood' effect is also present with many US Citizens, they have an image of NatAm people that is totally 'abstract and based on fantasy'.
When you contact the email mention that I sent you (they know my real name also).
Good Luck with your search.
PS.
* The 'Blood Quantum' requirements are an illegal entry in the 1887 General Allotment Act, which itself is an illegal piece of legislation: it preempts the 'Treaties' which mention NO blood quantum requirements, therefore no Blood Quantum requirements should be recognized. But then, there is much that the USA will be required to answer to someday: perhaps soon.
The 2000 census stated that there were just over 2 million Native Americans 'on the rolls'---but also showed that more than 18 million Americans claim Native American heritage---that's a big difference that the USA will one day be called to answer to also----soon
The 'book' "Black Elk Speaks" is considered to be fiction, and is not a reliable source of information except from the fictional point of reference.
Good Luck with your search, don't give up. Someone can steal your property and there is not much you can do to stop them--- no one can steal your heritage; unless you allow them to.
Thanks Native Son....It may take a bit of time for me to consider starting a search once again. It has been a number of years since I decided to put to rest my need to know my heritage.
I notice that you did not comment on the other points of my commentary to you. I can only assume that you read the comments and choose to not address them. So be it. Thank you for your concern and know that I have concern for you as well.
So this is "Change we can believe in (tm)"? This is "Hope(tm)"?
Seems to me the US is not only sinking faster, they are bailing water INTO the ship of State while simultaneously drilling more and bigger holes to let in even more water....
America doesn't understand why so many in the world hate America.
The Maher Arar case alone is reason enough for me.
Canada had full and Public disclosure and deemed this was an issue of Human RIGHTS rather then National Security and such rights take precedence over "security"
The United States has decided that issues of National Security overule any having to do with Human rights.
(Indeed a spokesperson in the Bush Administration claimed Canada not a full partner in the war on terror because "they cared to much about human rights")
The US thus sees itself LESS secure as a Nation this with the largest and most powerful Military in the World.
Further this meakes the US Constitution absolutely meaningless as ANY of the rights proscribed within can be overruled by issues of National Security.
Odd is it not the larger and more powerful ones MILITARY forces and the more one INVESTS in them, the less rights you end up with and the LESS secure you are.?
Odd is it not that this Military and its members continue to claim they are DEFENDING American Liberties?
The more money poured into that Military and Militarism and projecting power the world over the more liberties lost. This exactly as the framers of the Constitution warned. The peoples most responsible for the erosion of liberties are those actively participating in the apparatus of "Security" where these people should be DEFENDING the same.
The next time a US Soldier stands up to speak of his service and how he defends American liberty, do not applaud. You can certainly empathize with him as being a dupe but preserving liberties and rights is NOT something he is doing.
Odd is it not the larger and more powerful ones MILITARY forces and the more one INVESTS in them, the less rights you end up with and the LESS secure you are.?
---------------------------------
No, it's actually not odd at all. It's 'normal' pathology, if you'll forgive the oxymoron. It describes perfectly how all pathological (i.e. those not based in reality) fears or desires work, namely that no matter how much you do or how much you get, it's never enough. NEVER enough. N*E*V*E*R. In fact, attempting to abate the pathological fear or desire can actually cause it to *increase* in intensity.
We non-elites really need to get in touch with how mentally ill (really!) the people running things are. It should scare the living hell out of us because their illnesses make them a 'clear and present danger' to all life on Earth.
Amen amen and amen Mairead!!!
Well said.
How come there was no immunity for the Nazis in Nürmberg, and other places, after they'd lost the war? Just like some Americans, they were only doing their duty!
It is not the country that is at fault. The problem lies in the politicians who put forth dangerous policies such as Big Brother Act of 2001 and 2003 and more FISA. How about we concentrate on our upcoming midterm elections and let's see GG publicly endorse candidates who actually fight for civil liberties? We can reform Congress by hitting them at the voting booths.
In various recent polls, ~50% of Americans support torture in some form.
So, yes, it is the country that is at fault.
I need to see those polls in detail. There are questions in those polls that can distort actual public opinion. I have come across a lot of amoral joes and janes who will no doubt support such court decisions but polling is another matter and not all polls are necessarily reliable. I know I made my share of mistakes citing polls that were partisan without my realizing it.
How Americans view Torture, from an article on CD:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/11-7
The Pew poll itself:
http://people-press.org/report/510/
public-remains-divided-over-use-of-torture
"The Pew Research Center for the People & the Press has been polling Americans on this key question for almost five years. Since 2004, representative samples have been asked. Since 2004, representative samples have been asked, "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?" The results over this time period have shown only minor fluctuations. The most recent numbers, from last month, reveal that 15% of Americans believe torture is often justified, 34% think it is sometimes justified, 22% consider it rarely justified, and 25% believe torture is never justified. So not only do 49% consider torture justified at least some of the time, fully 71% refuse to rule it out entirely."
"Fox News/Opinion Dynamics asked a national sample of Americans, "Do you think the use of harsh interrogation techniques, including torture, has ever saved American lives since the September 11 (2001) terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon?" The results: 45% "Yes" and 41% "No" (with 14% responding "Don't Know"). In other words, almost half of Americans think torture "works."
"a national Gallup poll in January 2005, about eight months after the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, sheds some light here. The following question was posed: "Here is a list of possible interrogation techniques that can be used on prisoners. Do you think it is right or wrong for the U.S. government to use them on prisoners suspected of having information about possible terrorist attacks against the United States?" In order of approval percentages, the survey found that 50% approved of depriving prisoners of sleep for several days; 36% approved of threatening to transfer prisoners to a country known for using torture; 29% approved of threatening prisoners with dogs; 18 % approved of forcing prisoners to remain naked and chained in uncomfortable positions in cold rooms for several hours; 14% approved of strapping prisoners on boards and forcing their heads underwater until they think they are drowning; and 13% approved of having female interrogators make physical contact with Muslim men during religious observances that prohibit such contact."
Another CD article:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/09/01-2
"The rot in our national morality is evident in a June poll by the Associated Press, which found that 52 percent of Americans said torture was sometimes or often justified to obtain information from terror suspects."
"In April CNN poll found that even though 60 percent of Americans thought harsh techniques including waterboarding constituted torture, 50 percent approved of them.
"
"Washington Post/ABC News Poll was almost evenly split between Americans who say we should never use torture (49 percent) and should use torture in some cases (48 percent"
Not just one poll. Multiple polls.
Again: given the pack of lies after pack of lies the public has been told, and many believe. Of course the whole "teror" bogeyman is wildly exaggerated (not getting into 9/11 inside job). The entire context and framing of the question is false to begin with.
With that said, I am a bit surprised at the number of Americans who do see through the lies. The poll #s you cite are quite close.
The polls I cite show that 50% of Americans support torture. Downplay that however much you want, no matter the reasons or the excuses, that is 1 in 2 Americans, not some deranged minority.
It isn't the case that Americans solidly / strongly oppose torture, the politicians are ignoring them.
What about the other 50%? they don't count? I am really impressed that 50% can see throug the propaganda. More than I would have expected.
It sounds like blame the victim time. People who are not informed or sophisticated enough to see through the lies that they are told, deserve to be exploited. Is that right? I am not trying to diminish personal responsibility, however we cannot ignore the structures of power and information.
The MSM told us that Bush Jr. "won' the election. So Americans got what they wanted, case closed, right?
Yes, they count. Wherever did I say that they don't count? 1 in 2 Americans do not support torture. 1 in 2 Americans support torture. BOTH count. There will always be a deranged sociopathic minority in any group on any issue. Generally, they can be safely ignored. 1 in 2 people, out of a population of ~300 million, in the most powerful country in the world, supporting, cannot be ignored.
"It sounds like blame the victim time. People who are not informed or sophisticated enough to see through the lies that they are told, deserve to be exploited. Is that right? I am not trying to diminish personal responsibility, however we cannot ignore the structures of power and information."
Blame the victim? You mean the victims of torture?
You might want to explain how someone who supports torture is being exploited. Compared to the people who are actually being tortured.
Of course the structures of power and information can't be ignored. At the same time, there is often the view among the left that everything is due to the system, to attribute everything to false consciousness, to blame everything on the elites / politicians; ie, the majority of the people support leftish causes, they are just ignored by the politicians / elites.
Firstly, how do you know that the people who support torture are misinformed? How do you know that their support for torture is ignorance, and not malice? Or not ignorance AND malice, that is they are misinformed, don't care to get informed, and even if they are informed, they would still support it?
Have you considered that you are insulting peoples' intelligence, and that you are being elitist by assuming that people support torture simply because they are misinformed / uninformed and don't know better?
Socialist, as you correctly state, in a survey, the framing of the questions as well as the possible answers are extremely important.
I would be interested in seeing results/comparisons where the poll questions administered to Americans pertained specifically to the hypothetical torture of American terrorist suspects who have been taken prisoner in a foreign country. I am certain the moral relativism, cognitive dissonance, and out-right hypocrisy of many of those surveyed would be quickly evident.
So USA is abt 50% depraved, according to these polls. And the immoral 50% clearly includes most of those in positions of power. Down with the empire! We should not be doctors. We should be the disease.
Thanks for the detailed info. It's really hard to know what to make of these people who support all sorts of torture and are way too overprotective and skeptical of people who look a bit too different. There always seems to be that tempting feeling of "shoot first ask later" that becomes part of people's mentality from childhood on up. On the one hand, there are people who just find it "fun" to be destructive and then there are others who want to play "super hero" and for what purpose other than to "feel good being a hero". It is possible that the court felt as if it had to bow down to that false "hero" crowd. Now, a real hero would actually do the right thing even if it weren't popular although that definition is prone to being twisted by the wrong people.
There is one thing that bothers me about polls and it's this. Some people really feel like participating while others don't for reasons such as potential privacy concerns. Outliers are thus possible. That and the way questions are framed can distort polls. I never tried participating in any of their polls.
"The most recent numbers, from last month, reveal that 15% of Americans believe torture is often justified, 34% think it is sometimes justified, 22% consider it rarely justified, and 25% believe torture is never justified."
While true the poll is biased since it has 3 categories of torture and only one category of non-torture.
It is well known among polling companies that the choice and phrasing of the question can have a strong influence on the outcome. As politicians say this should be an up-down vote.
Other polls in recent years show other results, however:
Public opinion polls must be treated with extreme caution. How were the questions framed? What was asked? What was not asked? What were the implicit assumptions? What was the context?
The US public has been told pack of lies after pack of lies. The New Politics of Fear has them scared to death of bogeymen, terrsts, Al Kayder, bin Laden, crazed islamic folks, immigrants, etc. The propaganda machine works all too well.
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The US public has been told pack of lies after pack of lies. The New Politics of Fear has them scared to death of bogeymen, terrsts, Al Kayder, bin Laden, crazed islamic folks, immigrants, etc. The propaganda machine works all too well."
The politics of fear have always existed. Nothing new. Immigrants of all stripes always, the Catholics, the Jews, the yellow Chinese, the Red Russkies, the Pinkos, the Commies, the Vietcong, the Japanese (80s-early 90s), the gays, etc ad infinitum.
I agree, thats' why I call it "New" Oh, but you forgot socialists in the list
"It is not the country that is at fault. The problem lies in the politicians who put forth dangerous policies ..." (maxpayne)
In the history of any nation certain historical events can be seen as totalizing or constitutive moments which truly define –by their revelatory insights –the true 'meta' character of said nation and its peoples; Glenn Greenwald is correct to argue convincingly, that culpability cannot be severed between the political classes and the general American populace.
That perhaps a super majority of the American people, as much as 60%, cannot unequivocally condemn torture or extra legal fascist rendition is the material and psychic basis of that argument. For me that is an unassailable contention.
These 60% are co-extensive with the policies of their government and can be seen to constitute an actionable 'whole' of America. They succeed in substituting themselves on the 'symbolic' level of both image and materiality, into what America actually 'is.'
Similarly, in the history of any blog commentator certain postings have the same sense of finality.These comments become in effect as 'summary judgements.' All subsequent comments of these commentators becomes subsumed and irrevocably tainted by the insights provided by the one posting. The character or intellectual credibility of the commentator is exposed utterly and all subsequent work in the future is undermined by that one egregious transgression.
Such is the wretched idiocy of both maxpayne and Henry 8, who, in divulging their true stupidity, consign themselves to subsequent irrelevance now and in the future. They succeed in 'editing themselves out' in advance, so when one sees their screen names, they can be conveniently skipped over with a 'why bother.'
–(Jill Bains)
Another disturbing sign that the Obama administration is deliberately neglecting a vital task from the Bush error: cleaning up Dubya, Cheney, & Co.'s legacy of incompetent fascism. The longer this is not done, the harder it will be to clean up. Unfortunately, it appears as if the rule of thumb applying to fascist state crimes committed being addressed two or more administrations afterward (and certainly not by the administration immediately following), as evidenced in Argentina and Chile, applies here. Truly sad.