Everyone Should See 'Torturing Democracy'
In all the recent debate over torture, many of our Beltway pundits and politicians have twisted themselves into verbal contortions to avoid using the word at all.
During his speech to the conservative American Enterprise Institute last week -- immediately on the heels of President Obama's address at the National Archives -- former Vice President Dick Cheney used the euphemism "enhanced interrogation" a full dozen times.
Smothering the reality of torture in euphemism of course has a political value, enabling its defenders to diminish the horror and possible illegality. It also gives partisans the opening they need to divert our attention by turning the future of the prison at Guantanamo Bay into a "wedge issue," as noted on the front page of Sunday's New York Times.
According to the Times, "Armed with polling data that show a narrow majority of support for keeping the prison open and deep fear about the detainees, Republicans in Congress started laying plans even before the inauguration to make the debate over Guantanamo Bay a question of local community safety instead of one about national character and principles."
No political party would dare make torture a cornerstone of its rejuvenation if people really understood what it is. And lest we
forget, we're not just talking about waterboarding, itself a trivializing euphemism for drowning.
If we want to know what torture is, and what it does to human beings, we have to look at it squarely, without flinching. That's just what a powerful and important film, seen by far too few Americans, does. Torturing Democracy was written and produced by one of America's outstanding documentary reporters, Sherry Jones. (Excerpts from the film are being shown on the current edition of "Bill Moyers Journal" on PBS -- check local listings, or go to the program's website at PBS.org/Moyers, where you can be linked to the entire, 90-minute documentary.)
A longtime colleague, Sherry Jones and the film were honored this week with the prestigious RFK Journalism Award from the Robert F. Kennedy Center for Justice and Human Rights. Torturing Democracy was cited for its "meticulous reporting," and described as "the definitive broadcast account of a deeply troubling chapter in recent American history."
Unfortunately, as events demonstrate, the story is not yet history; the early chapters aren't even closed. Torture still is being defended as a matter of national security, although by law it is a war crime, with those who authorized and executed it liable for prosecution as war criminals. The war on terror sparked impatience with the rule of law -- and fostered the belief within our government that the commander-in-chief had the right to ignore it.
Torturing Democracy begins at 9/11 and recounts how the Bush White House and the Pentagon decided to make coercive detention and abusive interrogation the official U.S. policy on the war on terror. In sometimes graphic detail, the documentary describes the experiences of several of the men held in custody, including Shafiq Rasul, Moazzam Begg and Bisher al-Rawi, all of whom eventually were released. Charges never were filed against them and no reason was ever given for their
years in custody.
The documentary traces how tactics meant to train American troops to survive enemy interrogations -- the famous SERE program ("Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape") -- became the basis for many of the methods employed by the CIA and by interrogators at Guantanamo and in Iraq, including waterboarding (which inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death), sleep and sensory deprivation, shackling, caging, painful stress positions and sexual humiliation.
"We have re-created our enemy's methodologies in Guantanamo," Malcolm Nance, former head of the Navy's SERE training program, says in Torturing Democracy. "It will hurt us for decades to come. Decades. Our people will all be subjected to these tactics, because we have authorized them for the world now. How it got to Guantanamo is a crime and somebody needs to figure out who did it, how they did it, who authorized them to do it... Because our servicemen will suffer for years."
In addition to its depiction of brutality, Torturing Democracy also credits the brave few who stood up to those in power and said, "No." In Washington, there were officials of conviction horrified by unfolding events, including Alberto Mora, the Navy's top civilian lawyer, Major General Thomas Romig, who served as Judge Advocate General of the US Army from 2001 to 2005 and Lieutenant Colonel Stuart Couch, a former senior prosecutor with the Office of Military Commissions.
Much has happened since the film's initial telecast on some public television stations last fall. Once classified memos from the Bush administration have been released that reveal more details of the harsh techniques used against detainees whose guilt or innocence is still to be decided.
President Obama has announced he will close Guantanamo by next January, with the specifics to come later in the summer. That was enough to set off hysteria among Democrats and Republicans alike who don't want the remaining 240 detainees on American soil -- even in a super maximum security prison, the kind already holding hundreds of terrorist suspects. The president also triggered criticism from constitutional and civil liberties lawyers when he suggested that some detainees may be held indefinitely, without due process.
But in an interview with Radio Free Europe this week, General David Petraeus, the man in charge of the military's Central Command, praised the Guantanamo closing, saying it "sends an important message to the world" and will help advance America's strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In another revealing and disturbing development, the former chief of staff to former Secretary of State Colin Powell, Lawrence Wilkerson, has suggested what is possibly as scandalous a deception as the false case Bush and Cheney made for invading Iraq. Colonel Wilkerson writes that in their zeal to prove a link between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein during the months leading up to the Iraq war, one suspect held in Egypt, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, was water tortured until he falsely told the interrogators what they wanted to hear.
That phony confession that Wilkerson says was wrung from a broken man who simply wanted the torture to stop was then used as evidence in Colin Powell's infamous address to the United Nations shortly before the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Colin Powell says the CIA vetted everything in his speech and that Wilkerson's allegation is only speculation. We'll never know the full story -- al-Libi died three weeks ago in a Libyan prison. A suicide.
Or so they say.
No wonder so many Americans clamor for a truth commission that will get the facts and put them on the record, just as Torturing Democracy has done. Then we can judge for ourselves.
As the editors of the magazine The Christian Century wrote this week, "Convening a truth commission on torture would be embarrassing to the U.S. in the short term, but in the long run it would demonstrate the strength of American democracy and confirm the nation's adherence to the rule of law... Understandably, [the President] wants to turn the page on torture. But Americans should not turn the page until they know what is written on it."
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74 Comments so far
Show AllIt's hard to believe how far we've fallen.
Our last elected President--Bill Clinton--signed a bill called "The Torture Victims Relief Act."
Actually, we have all seen "Torturing Democracy" throughout our lives. From our childhood days to our current ages, we have been trained to enjoy watching other people suffer be it watching cartoons on tv, most of which contain plenty of bullying and torture to entertain children into loving it. Or torturing boys and girls who don't look like "one of them". Perhaps we should also realize that this nation was built on and credited with violence and torture. While I have not seen the film yet, I can probably guess that the film is not going to go very far because the main focus is on GITMO and prisoners in general as of this decade. This nation is amoral from the inside on out. Until that problem is correct, GITMO and torture are here to stay and no amount of films, books, or whatever famous documentaries will change that.
absolutely true. Cartoons are always showcasing guns as well, so that children think they are as American as apple pie. Even Disney movies are filled with violence and inflicting bodily harm. It is the "flashy" way to show who's "on top." Children grow up thinking, that those that choose physical violence are somehow more brave/superior than those who don't, can't or are simply afraid to.
the cartoon remark was well observed, Max.
I'm working on a cartoon character called Al Q'yote.
what's the fuss really?
it's all water over the board.
time to hope on.
Politicians and policy makers who use euphemisms to describe hard realities are not honest.
Such watering down of harmful practices through terminology is a problem across the board and it is worthy of attention.
President Obama refers to "expanding our global reach" in his discussion of military policy, when what he is referring to is American occupation and imperialism.
Environmentalists consider the term "beneficial use," used by our environmental regulatory agencies to describe harmful practices such as recycling nuclear waste into consumer products or covering landfills with incinerator ash, as "linguistic detoxification."
Let's get the false terminology out of our policymaking.
The only way to get USANs to watch this would be to tell them they can't watch the American Idol finals unless they watch this first. They still wouldn't give a damn.
"Torturing Democracy" can be viewed through video.google.com , for those interested
This old stupid dumb Indian likes the Tribal govt of old but that way of life isn't coming back anytime soon. At the car repair place a couple weeks ago. The fellow of European Heritage said of his Nation that's it's becoming or now is a Commie Nation. I said, yep.
Except I don't care if their Nation becomes a Commie Nation, Socialistic Nation, or stays a Democracy, but it's actually a Representative Republic because I don't actually care for any them, but acceptence in life is until my journey is concluded through their world I will have to live under one of their forms of Govt.
What I love about the Kingdom of Heaven is that it isn't a Democracy, a Socialistic Nation, Commie, Nation, nor is ruled over by any worldly Kings.
Jesus was an Israelite so it's not ruled over by Europeans so it's already starting to sound like Heaven to me. Rome's money with the Graven Image of Caesar upon their coin isn't used there any more than American's money with their Graven Images of men upon their money. So it's already starting sound like Heaven to me.
As I wonder if Jesus knew when he said, Render Unto Caesar what is Caesar's, that while it may look like Caesar is building some really grand swell worldly paradise upon the earth all it will do eventually is become Hell on Earth.
I don't proclaim that Indian living was exactly perfect or people were completely perfect, but if people lived that way all year around upon the planet I don't know that they would even be talking about the destruction of planet earth?
Jesus did not change this world. All Jesus did was warn this world. If you don't judge your fellow man you won't be judged, but since the Kingdom of Heaven is not of the world of man, this world, then I am not under any obligation to buy into George Washinton's lies, Americans lies, or anyone else's lies about anything at all.
If you forgive you will be forgiven. If you are compassionate towards others compassion will be shown to you. If you are merciful then you will obtain mercy. Love your friends & love your enemies. Return good for evil done to you. If you love evil being done to you then you sure picked the right world to be born into. Pray for those who use you despitefully.
Jesus did not teach religion or politics. Jesus taught his Father's Spiritual Kingdom. Prophecy states that if it were not for Creator interceeding on behalf of the human race at some given point in time the human race would destroy it's self completely.
The only way the human race would not destroy it's self completely by it's own hand's through either it's destruction of the earth, or it's nuclear weapons would have been to lived like the Tribes used to live.
Life is good. What an experience! It's always best to forgive.
Forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself. Those whom you forgive need never know.
But - forgiveness does not mean returning to ignorance. One can have forgiveness with wisdom gained.
Not truth Commission, indictments.
With Cool-hand Powell in town, we witness the graceful stage presence of a master magician. Controversy and policy failures? Torture?
Now you see, now you don't.
He's the ultimate salesman.
The way "agencies" flip the responsibility and accountability card back and forth, you better get out your yellow sticky pad to keep track. GPS units also advised.
No, it's the CIA's fault. No, it's the DOD's fault. It couldn't be the FBI, we don't torture but only because we fail to do any investigations (see pre-9/11). Oh, well. Gosh it's so hard to figure out what's real and what is fantasy these days. Better bring in Cool-hand Powell, he could led a governmental panel much like the one over Iran-Contra, Red October... Where is Lee Hamilton? He oversaw these "investigations". He could help Powell! Is he still busy writing the calm-and-collected Barack Obama's foreign affairs speeches?
Actually, it isn't "Lee" writing Obama FA speeches (even if Hamilton is a key player in Obama's world); it's Lee's former speech writer Rhodes who's been creatively giving voice to the president. Rhodes has an MA in fiction writing. (NO, I'm serious! NYU,'2002)
OMG -- It is a beautiful spring day in NYC and my country is oh so guilty of war crimes. This documentary should be required viewing for anyone who believes otherwise and anyone who wants the incentive to continue to work to close Gitmo and end torture.
I am going to post this comment and a link to www.torturingdemocracy.org to my Facebook page and go tweet the link, too. Please do similarly.
Peace hugs,
Kate Anne
>>On 4 December 1989 the United Nations passed resolution 44/34 the International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries. It entered into force on 20 October 2001 and is usually known as the UN Mercenary Convention[19]. Article 2 makes it an offence to employ a mercenary and Article 3.1 states that "A mercenary, as defined in article 1 of the present Convention, who participates directly in hostilities or in a concerted act of violence, as the case may be, commits an offence for the purposes of the Convention."[20]
Which means as far as International law is concerned our EncinoM is a Criminal. Will Encinom turn himself in as such given his take taht one must be tough on criminals ?
>>Under Article 47 of Protocol I (Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts) it is stated in the first sentence "A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war."
I find it so very interesting how readily the UN and Geneva conventions are cited when Governmnets wish to make the case for war against the North Koreas and Iraqs and Irans of the world, yet these very same Governments HIRE Mercenaries.
Saw it the first time. Worth seeing.
"According to the Times, "Armed with polling data that show a narrow majority of support for keeping the prison open and deep fear about the detainees.."
Yeah, right. More brilliance from the NYT braintrust.
I'd love to see enhanced interrogation used on Cheney. Then we might, just might get a word of truth from this creature. Probably not. Mr. Cheney doesn't have the foggiest idea of what the concept of truth is. It's all expedience. But Mr. Cheney is revealing how stupid he is, as well as monstrous. He really should learn to keep his mouth shut. Even G. Bush, who is no longer his puppet, is being very cautious when dealing with the drivel coming from Cheney.
The problem is, as the Dali Lama noted, that we need to have compassion even for the Dick Cheneys of the world.
Sorry, not that enlightened yet. I'm at the stage where I know my enemies and wish them destroyed. I'll have to get back to you on the compassion.
We don't torture, except when we do.
WE should all take action and make sure those legislators who voted blindly along with the outrageous unconstitutional manipulation of our and international laws, do not take office again. Most incumbents, OUT...we cannot stand by and let this continue...I'm not only ashamed to be an American, but also a human being...where is the empathy, the outrage, the action...oh, maybe write under our fingers...(I sincerely hope that everyone who posts here is also writing to their legislators, president and press their opinions on this and other subjects!)
From the article; "No wonder so many Americans clamor for a truth commission that will get the facts and put them on the record, just as Torturing Democracy has done. Then we can judge for ourselves."
Using the word “truth” when trying to uncover the doings of the Bush administration assumes that the truth can be discovered, something in which I have grave doubts can be achieved. Remember that the Bushies have done everything possible to conceal the truth, millions of e-mails have been disappeared, the hard drives of their computers have been ground up into dust, millions more documents have been improperly classified top secret, and the paper shredders in the executive branch worked 24/7/365 during the Bush administration.
Beyond that, the loyal Bushies that were improperly appointed to positions that should have been staffed on merit instead of political affiliation are in place to subvert investigations into the wrong-doings of the Bush administration.
Those in the chain of command that relayed illegal orders have a self interest that the truth does not come out. Those who have knowledge of illegal offenses but are not guilty of offenses will also be reluctant to speak out because it’s highly doubtful that all of the many, many in the chain of command who gave illegal orders will be purged from power so it’s highly likely that those who do speak out will face retribution. (A policy that was practiced with vengeance during the Bush administration, Valerie Plame, Bunny Greenhouse and Paul O’Neil headline a much longer list of lesser known whistleblowers to feel the wrath of BushCo.)
Finally if there is one thing that liars are good at it’s calling those who would disclose their lies liars. With little or no hard evidence (because it has been destroyed) the Bushies will simply call those who testify against them liars and the MSM media will give the voice of the Bushies equal or more time than those making the case against them. As to the political outcome of a Truth Commission, a draw is the best the left can expect.
Sioux
MADHOOSIER: As to the subject of Truth, years ago when I debated a highly educated historian who like some in this forum, refused to lend the slightest credence to astrology, he told me that if I wanted to truly understand the role of the occult in history, I should read the book, "The Spear of Destiny" by Nigel Ravencroft. I did. It basically recounted the depth to which the Nazi party messed with what most term black magic, or "the dark side." Also related in this intriguing book was the fact that Nazi party members hated Rudolph Steiner, the pre-eminent mystic of their times. Steiner had "the sight" which allowed him to see through the cloud of smoke and mirrors and fully note what was going on. In other words, the "evil doers" could hide little from his IN-sight.
Although the texts from the Library at Alexandria (along with other books during break-outs of totalitarianism) were burned, much of their content is retained by adepts and high clairvoyants. WE believe that all truth is imprinted upon the ethers and those that can reach high enough states in meditation (or trance medium work) can "read" these imprints. I share this because even if the ostensible record (on the material plane) has been burned, the evidence done away with, the TRUTH has been imprinted and does exist for the few who have the wit to decipher it. (I am not saying I am such a one, but I am aware that such souls do exist.) Evil, torture, the make-war state cannot HIDE that level of evidence, nor for all its abuse of mundane law, skirt the rebound of Universal law, a/k/a karma.
The Dark Side, and fomenting fear of it, is a tool wielded by those who most loudly claim to be good. Amazing how intimately they are acquainted with it. Burn all the books; but sooner or later some caesar, dictator or pope will repeat the lesson.
Karma happens, but not quickly nor obviously enough to suit me.
The problem of aiding, abetting, or merely tolerating torture is not something that we simply can lay on the hands of Bush, Cheney, the CIA, etc. There has been a struggle in the professional field of psychology, with many psychologists struggling to get the American Psychological Association to take a clear stand that its members should not participate in torture. It took a major uprising and an Association-wide referendum to pass such a statement (and the APA holds itself publicly as the font of professional ethics for psychologists). In one psychology department in a major university of which I am aware, when a motion for the department to make an official statement against psychologists participating in torture was made, a majority of department members would vote for such a motion only when it was stripped of all reference to the real practice of torture. "we must separate our teaching of ethical practices from politics" said some members. These people, self avowed liberals, were afraid that there could be a cost to be paid when department members sought government research grants, or when a conservative politician might demand that state funds be withheld from the department. NIMBY: we are against torture except when our opposition might have a cost for us. Like good liberals, we are against evil things so long as others pay the cost for our opposition. If our ethics might cost us something, bury the ethics. Good ends when good men fear to do good. Evil commences when good men fear to do good.
Sioux Rose
LOOPLESS: Well-said. The profound irony is that as Gracie Slick once sang, as per our money and wages (thanks to the new infusion of a trillion fresh greenbacks direct into the existing supply) they "don't mean shit to a tree."
All my life I've been ahead of trends, the curve, as they say. I decided to get all the things I might need for the next few years (apart from food, although I am working on growing some) now while the dollar still means something. I don't have too much faith in our currency given the decisions made to bailout banks that have so over-inflated their assets, thanks to the casino instrument known as "derivatives," as to have poured good money after bad right into a virtual black hole... so far the con is still holding everything together, but as astute persons in this forum have pointed out, America has forfeited a huge part of its manufacturing base, and giant firms manage too much of our agriculture along with those horrific "industrial" farms. Investments in infrastructure, education, health care--the items that build up a nation from its key resource, its people, have been willfully neglected to instead feed the beasts of Mammon (the banking caste) and Mars (the MIC and its Hydra-headed tentacles). So the shrinks selling out on decency are being delivered a profoundly defrauded piece of change as trade for their moral pains, or lack of same.
I see Obama as an Accessory after the Fact
http://www.gpln.com/accessory.htm
EncinoM:
"We don't like to do it but we got to cut down on terrorists and other trouble makers so that's our job. Being nice to criminals only makes more of them."
Heinrich Himmler would stand by your words. It would be pointless to argue against such authoritarian drivel. And there are plenty of your fellow Reich Wingers who would certainly "like to do it".
You must be a very happy Amerikaner. Democracy is dead in this country. Obama is a good company man. The US government continues to be primarily an engine of empire and tool of Big Money.
Peace.
Speaking of lame comedies, it's a thrill to have "Encino Man" commenting here.
But he seemed so much SMARTER in the movie!
· Yr Obd't Servant
Encino Man visually reminds me of what a Troll looks like in the movie...
No doubt.
i'm guessing that the only thing he is going to accomplish is getting the progressives on this site all riled up... and THAT is probably his only point in posting here.
I've never gotten caught up in the perennial blog comments accusations and counter-accusations of whether certain commenters are paid trolls or merely gifted amateur trolls who are exactly as stupid and mean-spirited as they seem.
But Encino Man is not the first writer to crawl through the CD threads this week like a rabid ape beating its chest and snarling guttural troofs presenting life as a Darwinian behavioral sink in which the ends justify the means, and the "end" is Taking Care of Number One.
Which, despite its emphatic self-righteousness, amounts to hurling Number Two, as rabid apes will.
(My scrolling finger is the only part of me that's BUFF!)
· Yr Obd't Servant
LOL... awesome... I don't think his type could be explained any better than how you just put it!
It is hard to believe that NO ONE seems to consider the REASON WHY Rumsfeld and Bush kept insisting that the "detainees" were NOT POWs... and not protected under the rules of the Geneva Conventions.
They KNEW that this sort of treatment would get out eventually, and they wanted PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
From the very beginning, they wanted to use unconventional means to get at whatever information the "detainees" had.
By playing with labels, they thought they could get away with that.
The reality is, THEY CAN'T.
Anyone who has ever gone through officer training school is extensively drilled in the law:
"Joint Forces Regulation for the Treatment of Enemy Prisoners of War, Retained Personnel, Civilian Internees and Other Detainees".
This document is an official Department of Defense regulatory guideline, which has the force of law in all services of the U.S. Military. It is also based on the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, (commonly known as the GPW), which, because the U.S. Congress ratified it, has the force of law.
Anyone can read the law and it's very clear guidelines and see that it applies to ANYONE IN CUSTODY of our military... and it also applies to all civilians involved in their incarceration.
The ONLY WAY the military would let these guidelines be broken is by orders from the TOP... as it was, even the JAG lawyers were alarmed by the abuse of the law!
At the moment, at least one low-level ex-soldier is doing time, yet the law clearly says the people at the TOP are the ones responsible to keep torture from happening.
"It is hard to believe that NO ONE seems to consider the REASON WHY Rumsfeld and Bush kept insisting that the 'detainees' were NOT POWs"
there was no reason to wonder - it was bloody obvious.
as soon as bush pulled out of the ICC and started wangling war-crime immunity treaties with other nations it became clear that some nasty shit was about to occur.
I used to work as a police officer and later a mercenary and I know that all this torture bs is being exagerrated. We don't like to do it but we got to cut down on terrorists and other trouble makers so that's our job. Being nice to criminals only makes more of them.
WOW!! are you SPIDERMAN?
you are an unashamed apologist for murder.
Is that why the jails in the USA are full of criminals? You have the highest rate of incarceration in the world yet have a higher crime rate then most of what is called the "First World nations".
Your tough on criminals does not seem to be working very well does it?
Or is it that this torture and tough on crimnals approach is just targeting the innoccent?
Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, what goes around comes around. If you have participated in torture as your post implies, you shouldn't sleep easily at night.
Here's the core issue. How do you determine who deserves to be tortured? You are short circuiting the entire legal process of a fair trail, based on evidence legally collected, for the accused. Thats the problem. In addition, the US is engaged in at least three overt wars, all illegal by US law (all violate the UN charter). That's also the problem. The US feels that it has the right to rule the world, that's also the problem.
It's not a matter of determining who "deserves" to be tortured. As we've seen so far, any victim will do. Just knowing that the next torture victim could be you, serves the purpose as a terror tactic. I think the extra efforts of the Bush regime to make it "legal" was to establish a precedent for public conditioning and to widen it's use not only overseas, but in the "Homeland" as well.
Sioux Rose
MISTER CHIPS: I totally agree with you, and I'd take it a step further, that all the new military movies and the TV series "24" also condition the public to accept greater and greater levels of violence. It's all beyond sickening to me. It's astounding what's underway and the vast majority see it all as "just" someone else's problem, probably someone who deserves "it." Trust in authorities NOW given the evidence of malfeasance in the form of a case FIXED on false pretenses FOR war, is beyond the pale. I wonder sometimes if the massive doses of anti-depressants being passed out, the soporific drug of TV and the Roman arena of sports taken together (with ample doses of beer) are what's ultimately keeping the citizeny quiet and manageable.
I don't believe anybody 'deserves' to be tortured. The idea that there are good people and evil people is as republican/conservative an idea as any I have ever heard. People aren't divided that way. And we certainly don't have the right to judge whom is whom.
Sioux Rose
PREZNIT: Nice case. It presumes you can break through the armor that makes for an authoritarian mindset in one whose reflex is a distorted kind of patriotism. One in which America and its leader(s), whatever smoke and mirrors surround their elections, are to be obeyed, regardless of the indications of established law, or basic decency and morality. There are too many true believers with minds too-long calcified around false contentions of right and wrong, good guys and bad guys based on an oversimplified (hello movie plots!) version of winners and losers; and it's unlikely that the Light of Truth will pierce through their walled-off mental facades. If you have the time, you can keep trying.
I just watched 'Torturing Democracy'. I am ashamed to be American.
Shame is an appropriate response in this case.
My wife and I watched Moyers last night and just stared at each other when it was done. What can be said? We could only feel the depth of our despair and no words were necessary.
Those who defend torture just don't get it. They just don't get it. Sad to be them, really. They are such sad and amoral creatures.
I've been ashamed to be American for going on 10 years.
Very little discussion concerning the mission and behavior of the CIA and its and how it effects the world's view of America and the reactions to it. The CIA was created to circumvent our laws and international law. It was built and has been justified by the premise that we must act extralegally to protect America. That premise is phony. We should abolish the CIA operations and use it for intelligence. Take away the toy that Presidents have played with for six decades. It corrupts them. Just take a look at the fiascos the CIA has perpetrated and reject the claims, offered without proof, that the CIA somehow make us more secure.
Herman Schmidt
The CIA is above the law, and the last person who attempted to remove them was conveniently assassinated in broad daylight driving through Dealey Plaza.
I'm not watching "Torturing Democracy"!
Instead, I'm watching the new hit teevee sitcom, "Moving Forward".
It's exactly like "The Cosby Show", except that the Dad isn't a successful doctor, he's the President of the United States!
Watch and delight each week, while "Prez"-- as he's hilariously referred to by his family-- uses his double-jointed, multi-forked tongue to talk his way past knee-slapping laughs and predicaments.
(Actually, whether "Knee-slapping" constitutes torture is one of the plot devices!)
It's WAY more infotaining than some downer about torture. Remember: in Amerika what matters is the RATINGS-- that's what brings in the dollars, dontcha know.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Sioux Rose
O.S: You could write the promo for just about anything. You're quite the juggler with words, nice satire.
Bring America Back !!!!..........once again the Bill Moyers Journal straddles up with Mainstream Media, and distracts us with yet another 'Torture' venture==and a paid column too ?
**One sentence in the article does say beginning with 9/11,
then fades away into the party line fog of Neocon heaven.
**Bush Neocon World knew their fabricated boogieman, bin Laden, would not hold the 9/11 blame forever (FBI states no connection or evidence whatsoever of bin Laden to 9/11).
They therefore needed more Patsies to cover the real Truth of that day of infamy.
**The very obvious answer in the intelligence companies was Torture.....the proven method of having fall guys take the blame of almost anything, coverups for the real Terrorists, the Homegrown Variety==who were the occupants of Building Number 7, NYC World Trade Center up until that Day ! They needed Patsies.
**As Jack Nicholson said so well in his Role, 'THE TRUTH, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH." Moyers, Winship and Staff keep doing us the dis-service of verbosely touting the illegality, albeit sexiness, of Torture.
**Enough already, we know you are passing off the King Bush fantasy that a cave-dwelling dragonman and 19 airline pilot flunkouts pulled off the technical genius of 9/11. We know that ! We know you do not wish to face the real Truth of 9/11, any more than the current Saviour in Office.
**Obama's current Crusades into Tora Bora are also being justified by the same 'ol Spectres of Fear, that never were.
Patsies: the Anthrax Patsies; the abu Gharib Patsies; the Gitmo Patsies; and torture is the means, not the End!
Sioux Rose
TRUTH: You definitely take accurate aim at a number of bona fide targets. So scary, but too true.
Maybe bin laden did not mastermind the 9/11 attack.
Maybe the government does not know or does not want to investigate because it involves lots of Intel agencies who had knowledge and a couple of them where paying Atta.
The truth may never be known just like who all shot JFK.
Ben laden is like Oswald now... dead, and the best patsy the USA can find.
But the Demolition Theory is phony and a distraction from all the real Intrigue of the masters of war.
If Bush planned it (He is way too stupid anyway) why would he order the White House to be hit when all that would have been needed was one building to be hit?
But two towers and the Pentagon, if planned, would have to be known by thousands of insiders and the government can't keep something that big a secret with not one whistle blower with inside knowledge of all the work and money spent on a operation that would never work because of the endless complexity and loose lips are a very human trait.
I want a real investigation also, but when you claim you know the truth already, without proof, who is going to give you one?
'DEMOLITION THEORY' debunking has long ago been debunked. There's scads of evidence, eyewitness, circumstantial and actual evidence of a controlled demolition. Go to 9-11 blogger, Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth, as well as other related sites for more info. Be sure to look up the studies for chemical signatures indicating the use of nano-thermite in the demolitions (investigative group of Dr. Steven Jones, Neils Harrit (?) and others). Why do you insist that the operation would have to be known by "thousands of insiders". As far as keeping secrets, one large project, the Manhattan Project, was kept secret for many years.
It is my observation that every claim made by the 9/11 Truth Movement has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. The Truthers respond to this phenomenon by ignoring it.
Here are my three favorite 9/11 debunking sites. They will cure a normal person in just a few minutes:
http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
That was a "Good WAR" too with not much opposition. Russia knew more about it than you think and were working on their own bomb like Germany was but that was just one open secret.
Most secrets are known but the government just acts like if they keep it officially as a secret nobody can do anything.
I don't think many would think it patriotic to do 9/11 for the Bush Gang without getting the real big story out.
It has been 8 years now.
Real demolition experts tell of how involved a demolition of just one building is ... the Truthers think it is a piece of cake but no proof.
So now the debunkers will debunk the debunkers who debunked and so on and on.
I read that Jones' peer review was paid for.
More on thermite here:
http://www.debunking
911.com/jones.htm#
Iron%20Spheres
Jim,
If you do have a genuine interest ...
Research the litany of ongoing investigations by the office of naval intelligence into various military intelligence scandals and corporate fraud... They were the only military organization to move back into the recently remodelled wing of the pentagon... 39 of the 40 ONI officers and lawyers were killed that day on 9-11, and destroyed the evidence, Thus ending their cases...
All of the ten year certificates of securities taken out to bankroll the destabilization of the ruble and buy up privatized soviet industries for pennies in 1991 were to come due on sept 12th 2001... And the banksters who used the Japanese WWII gold to bankrupt Russia had no intention of returning the fort Knox collateral that was used to bring down the "evil empire"... They needed it to leverage and hedge their bets for all the dirivatives scams & hedge fund schemes to set up the sub-crime loan shark feeding frenzy... All of the evidence of the thousands of ongoing investigations into corporate fraud, insurance fraud, and the banksters that run them were in the basement and In the FBI offices of the WTC...
9-11 was not just about creating a false flag attack to justify resource wars in eurasia, but also a convenient way to destroy incriminating evidence that was going to come to light... Showing the network between blueblood banksters, old world mobsters, and post war intelligence apparati..
GoldenMean,
Yes, I have read about those investigations from writers who support the pre-wired Demolition Theory.
But You said "was going to come to light". Sounds like you are saying that Bush who controlled all these intel agencies was about to release all this secret info.
Not on this planet.
I am sure that the CIA, FBI, Navy, Coast Guard, and the others have lots secret evidence about lots of things but the Prez controls what is released. It is called Cherry Picking and it is the way it always works.
And I don't think that any major evidence about anything is not duplicated on other government systems and Intel networks. This is a security method called redundancy and is routinely done in case of documents being destroyed. But this does not mean anyone will ever see the secret stuff. The people never do.
They don't have to blow-up their own buildings, workers, officers and officials to prevent the release of secret documents.
on sept 10 '01 donald rumsfeld announces the pentagon is missing trillions of bucks.
guess where the bookkeepping offices were.
rumsfield the whistle blower. What would we know without him?
GM, I've heard the theory but I've never heard it put quite so succinctly as you have just done. I think I'm gonna hurl.
And so .... how is it that we are different from the Nazis?
We speak English, you idiot!
George Markley: That is some funny stuff.
Also, the nazis pparently did not alleviate their victims' suffering by making sweet love to them and capturing the happy orgies on camera.
The American twist. I'm waiting for the reality show on TV.
We have been doing it alot longer.
That is ironically funny -- and I needed the laugh as I just watched the documentary at http://www.torturingdemocracy.org
Peace hugs,
Kate Anne
NEVER going to happen...sorry...ethics at the periphery never touch the rotten soul...never. America LIKES torture...it's a perfect match for their core values...and THAT is the real argument here. Pictures and the sounds of screams from the Torture and the Rape of men, women, and children grows White America a chubby...welcome to the 12th century, Xrstian...
THE LAW IS THE LAW!
and no one is above the law.
Unless your victim is Muslim. Americans feel safer each time they hear that we are killing Muslims, as dictated by their education through media control.
Shhhhh! Don't tell that to Cheney!
It is good to see Bill Moyers involved in this controversy.