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TechnoratiHonduras: The Right-Wing Coup d'état is Faltering, but Its Supporters Have Powerful Friends in Washington
Democracy hangs by a thread
There is stiffening international opposition to their protégé, Roberto Micheletti, who, in his capacity as President of Congress, ordered President Manuel Zelaya to be expelled from the country by plane in his pyjamas.
![[Supporters of Honduras' ousted President Manuel Zelaya protest in Catacamas, Honduras, Saturday, July 18, 2009. Hopes for a quick resolution to Honduras' political crisis dimmed when its interim government balked at a plan presented in talks Saturday to reinstate ousted President Manuel Zelaya and form a national unity government.
(AP Photo/Arnulfo Franco)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/honduras_coup.jpg "honduras_coup.jpg")
Mr Zelaya gave negotiators meeting in Costa Rica until midnight yesterday to restore him to office, threatening to secretly return to Honduras and attempt to retake power on his own if no agreement is reached. At a news conference at the Honduran embassy in Nicaragua, he said: "I am going back to Honduras, but I am not going to give you the date, hour or place, or say if I'm going to enter through land, air or sea." But indications last night suggested the interim government would call his bluff.
As the Acting President's support shrinks at home, the plotters are lobbying to have Mr Micheletti shored up from abroad by means of a declaration of legitimacy from the US Congress. That scheme is not prospering. Enrique Ortez Colindres, the supremely undiplomatic octogenarian appointed foreign minister by Mr Micheletti, has had to resign, but not before he called Barack Obama "a negrito who knows nothing about anything", on Honduran television.
For some of the plotters it is their second attempt to overthrow an elected reformist government in Latin America: the group includes prominent figures involved in the 2002 ousting of President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, who was kidnapped for 48 hours and sent to a Caribbean island before being restored to office after widespread popular protest.
The temporary toppling of Mr Chavez was welcomed by the Bush administration, the Blair government and the International Monetary Fund. This weekend, the US seems destined for a replay of 2002's Operation Chaotic Coup. Amid a stream of contradictory messages it is clear that last month's putsch against Mr Zelaya was brewed up in Washington by a group of extreme conservatives from Venezuela, Honduras and the US. They appear to have hidden their plans from the White House, but hoped eventually to bounce President Obama into backing them and supporting the "interim president". They are making much of Mr Zelaya's alliance with Mr Chavez, whose sense of nationalism challenges US hegemony.
Financial backing for the coup is identified by some as coming from the pharmaceutical industry, which fears Mr Zelaya's plans to produce generic drugs and distribute them cheaply to the impoverished majority in Honduras, who lack all but the most primitive health facilities. Others point to big companies in the telecommunications industry opposed to Hondutel, Honduras's state-owned provider. Parallels are being made with ITT, the US telecommunications company that offered the Nixon government funds for the successful overthrow of President Salvador Allende of Chile in 1973.
A key figure is Robert Carmona-Borjas, a Venezuelan active against Mr Chavez in 2002, who later fled to the US. He runs the Washington-based Arcadia, which calls itself "an innovative 'next generation' anti-corruption organisation". Its website carries three video clips alleging, without evidence, that Mr Zelaya, his associates and Hondutel are deeply corrupt. Behind Arcadia are the US-funded National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and the International Republican Institute (IRI), the well-funded overseas arm of the Republican Party. Currently active among the Uighurs of western China, the NED has this year funnelled $1.2m (£740,000) for "political activity" in Honduras.
The focus of attention in the campaign against Mr Zelaya is now on the office of Senator John McCain, the defeated US presidential candidate, who is chairman of the IRI, takes an interest in telecoms affairs in the US Congress and has benefited handsomely from campaign contributions from US telecoms companies - which are said to have funded the abortive 2002 coup against Mr Chavez.
Mr McCain's former legislative counsel, John Timmons, arranged the visit of Micheletti supporters to Washington on 7 July where they met journalists at the National Press Club "to clarify any misunderstandings about Honduras's constitutional process and ... the preservation of the country's democratic institutions".
Meanwhile, within the US administration, difficulties in co-ordination have emerged between the State Department and the White House, with the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, issuing a low-key condemnation of the coup which was quickly superseded by stronger words from Mr Obama. The President called for Mr Zelaya's reinstatement, which Mrs Clinton had failed to demand.
The conservative-minded Mrs Clinton retains John Negroponte, an ambassador to Honduras under Ronald Reagan, as an adviser. He also represented George W Bush at the UN and in Baghdad. Democratic Senator Chris Dodd attacked Mr Negroponte in 2001 for drawing a veil over atrocities committed in Tegucigalpa, the Honduran capital, by military forces trained by the US. Mr Dodd claimed that the forces had been "linked to death squad activities such as killings, disappearances and other human rights abuses".
During his time in Tegucigalpa, Mr Negroponte directed funds to the US-supported Contra terrorists seeking to overthrow the government of Nicaragua. He assured them of arms and supplies from the Palmerola airstrip, the main US base in Central America. As President Rafael Correa of Ecuador is in the final stages of closing the US base in his country, Mr Negroponte is conscious of what the US could lose if a Zelaya government banned its presence at Palmerola. For their part, Hondurans have noted that when Mr Zelaya tried to return on 6 July, and his plane was refused permission to land at Tegucigalpa airport, no room was found at Palmerola.
Since last July, the US ambassador in Tegucigalpa has been the Cuban-born Hugo Llorens. He was the principal National Security adviser to Mr Bush on Venezuela at the time of the failed 2002 coup, when he was working with two other well-known State Department hardliners, Otto Reich and Elliot Abrams.
Mr Reich, a former US ambassador to Venezuela, advised Mr McCain in his presidential bid and previously worked for AT&T, the US telecoms giant. As he goes into battle against Mr Zelaya, the website of his business consultancy, Otto Reich Associates, quotes Mr Reagan: "You understand the importance of fostering democracy and economic development among our closest neighbours."
Mr Abrams was also deep in the business of supplying the Contra terrorists. He tried to sabotage the Central American peace plans proposed by Oscar Arias, then the Costa Rican President, who later received a Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts. In 1991 Mr Abrams, a neoconservative passionately supportive of Ehud Olmert and other leading Israeli hawks, was convicted of hiding information from the US Congress investigation of the Iran-Contra affair. The New York Times reported in 2006 that he had strong ties to then vice-president Dick Cheney.
In a divided Washington, Mrs Clinton seems in recent days to have regained some advantage. Now Washington's strategy is to minimise the role of the pan-continent Organisation of American States which, under the leadership of the independent-minded Chilean José Miguel Insulza, took a strong line against the "interim president".
Washington is now relying on Mr Arias, a firm friend in Central America, to soften the line against Mr Micheletti. He is trying to "mediate" between Mr Zelaya and the coup's appointee by putting them on the same footing. On Friday he called for a "government of national reconciliation" with ministers from both camps, a proposal which it appeared Mr Zelaya would countenance but that the interim government would not.
Yet the outcome of the crisis is not likely to be worked out in huddles of foreign politicians outside Honduras, but on the streets of Tegucigalpa and in the country's forests - perhaps even this weekend.
Honduran voters have traditionally - and ineffectually - been organised into two parties, the Nationals and the Liberals, whose politics are almost indistinguishable. But repudiation of Mr Micheletti is widespread. The principal roads have been blocked by Mr Zelaya's supporters brandishing banners calling for his return.
Mr Micheletti has been forced to re-establish the curfew he imposed just after the putsch. He has even offered to resign in order to prevent civil war - provided Mr Zelaya does not return. Another worrying development for Mr Micheletti came on Friday, when the armed forces delivered a solemn and urgent message that they were totally united in favour of democracy. In the world of Latin American politics, this is a sign that they are deeply divided.
At the festivities on Friday commemorating the 200th anniversary of Bolivia breaking free from Spanish rule, Mr Chavez joined Bolivia's President, Evo Morales, President Fernando Lugo of Paraguay and President Correa in a declaration of support for the re-establishment of democracy in Honduras. All four leaders are strong supporters of demands for better treatment of Latin America's indigenous peoples.
Perhaps that's what is really worrying the plotters of Tegucigalpa.
Hugh O'Shaughnessy's study of President Fernando Lugo, 'The Priest of Paraguay', will be published next month by Zed Books.
64 Comments so far
Show AllNo matter the means that the actual government and supporters took so that Zelaya resigned to the presidential power, it was in the name of true democracy and not a false one that he proclaimed. Even though some manifestations are taking place in my country (sponsored of course by Chavez), the mayority of people are against Zelaya and his evil supporters such as the sanguine Chavez. The reality inside my country that so many people outside dont see is that we are united and at peace just as long as Zelaya doesnt return to power. He has commited a list of crimes before our eyes. Therefore, we support our Armed Forces and our actual president. The sad part is that so many people is misinformed and are trying to force upon us a "leader" that only wants honduran blood and eternal political power.
Just because you do not have English skills does not make you a Honduran--and especially not a spokesperson for Hondurans on and English language site.
You might try "enlightening" us with the list of the crimes Zelaya committed before your eyes.
I challenge you.
Just because you do not have English skills does not make you a Honduran--and especially not a spokesperson for Hondurans on and English language site.
You might try "enlightening" us with the list of the crimes Zelaya committed before your eyes.
I challenge you.
What would make me a HONDURAN? Would it help to give you my ID number so you can search for me in the Honduras data base so I can assure you im native?? Anyways, I might not be an official political spokesperson, but I am more entitled than you are to give an opinion since my people are the ones suffering about it. I can give you the list of crimes in any language that you want and can send them all through mail if you wish with evidence. Another way you could see it through my eyes would be if you came here and experienced for yourself what I am talking about. Its very easy to form an opinion and oppose when its another country you are talking about.I am sorry but communism is not an option for Honduras and that is the reality. I respect your ideology, but wont share it. Good day.
You are NOT necessarily more entitled than I am to opine, as I have lived and worked in Latin America for the past 20 years and am a specialist on the region, and I have suffered the repression from illegitimate right wing "governments" of the very sort that you are supporting.
Spanish will be fine for the list of alleged Zelaya crimes you reference, but POST IT HERE. I am not giving out my email to people like you who are goofy enough to dig for communists under the bed and who think Chavez is digging a tunnel from Caracas to Tegucigalpa to appear like Superman out of the phone booth and take over.
Get over the Bogey Man Boogie and develop your own critical thinking abilities. They must be in you somewhere.
The mention of the loathsome Elliot Abrams makes me remind people that following his illegal activities resupplying the Contras from their Honduran bases, he found a way to make money in the 90's using his connections and all those roads that were built; he was exporting rare hardwood from the Honduran interior.
People need to know that while Obama is President, there are still a lot of well connected Bushies in powerful positions who know their time is short to advance their agenda.
miniwood
Real Communist and Socialism means
For the People
By the People
This is what Zelaya and his party want
El Sabio Pedro and his like certainly doesn't
Adalante companeroes. . ." Viva Sandino" Viva 19 de Julio! Viva Carlos Fonseca Amador!
Viva the people of Honduras and democracy!
AD
Adelante, companeros.
The U.S. based coup-planners should be put on trial for being involved in the overthrow of another government, as should any government officials, including but not limited to Elliot Abrams and John Negroponte, who were involved in the coup. And if investigations reveal that their involvment had been authorized at the highest level of our government, President Barack Hussein Obama, for example, since overthrowing a government is an act of war, impeachment should be on the congressional agenda. Why? Because our president will have made war against a country without an enabling act of Congress, that's why.
Yes, and US military heads should roll for using the joint US-Honduran base to faciltate the kidnapping of Zelaya. (I mean at the Pentagon as well as in Tegucigalpa)
Poet
It appears the Honduras event was triggered by the sacking of the general when the man refused to help with the election. Maybe you should stop making excuses for Zelaya's own ineptitude in failing to understand he was pushing other centers of power too hard.
I see.
You believe that being a president means only smiling, shaking hands and wearing a suit.
Like the president of the US does.
Correct me if I am wrong.
You are wrong.
A military officer is required by law to disobey an illegal order and seeing how both the supreme court of Honduras and the Attorney General declared the issuing of ballots to be a criminal act the General was in fact following the law by refusing to comply with the Presidents order.
Consequently, the President did illegally sack the General.
In this case, I could not possibly care.
He should have sacked him a long time ago--then the rightwing gorillas would not be murdering Hondurans.
Is the General still stealing cars?
I am impressed with the restraint the Honduran army has shown so far. In the old days(Reagan/Bushes/Clinton) blood and mass butchery would be in full swing. Is it possible the soldiers have realized they are being asked to do the dirty work for extremely wealthy people who only share crumbs? I hope the American people will soon wake from their slumber and resist the incredible robbery going on by an elite class in the U.S. The distorting apologist in the 'media" have got this really wrong as well. The Wall Street Journal, the Economist, the New York Times have again exposed their insidious nabob worship when reporting (distorting) the events in Honduras. It is pathetic that these liars still pretend to be responsible,objective reporters of events. As for the Clintons, I am sure the informed masses of the south are aware of their thug and avaricious mindset. I pray Obama will resist the D.C. hustle, but I suspect the perks of nabob hobnobing will infect him as well.
One more thing:
Our dear leader Obusha just named another advisor to the state department on economic and agricultural affairs (Honduran bananas anyone?) from (are you ready for this?) GOLDMAN SACHS!
What a pair of Brass balls this Obusha has! Either that or he has none at all. I think it's the former and he is just one of them.
My apologies to all females for tacitly equating boldness to testosterone. It's an old habit. Most of the bullheaded meatheads I have dealt with were men. Admitedly, I've run into some women who knew Machiavelli by heart and lived the devious life with gusto, but by and large, it's the men who are the most heartless bastards.
"Parallels are being made with ITT, the US telecommunications company that offered the Nixon government funds for the successful overthrow of President Salvador Allende of Chile in 1973."
A word about ITT (International Telephone and Telegraph):
They were absolutely riddled with CIA.
Hey Steel_gray, how about all that think tank money going to "political development" in Honduras? Is that "legitimate"?
Have another banana.
But really, folks, we need to take a hard look at this banana thing. The USA eats an enormous amount of bananas. I buy organic, FAIR trade bananas. That's the only place I don't scrimp. Don't buy the slave trade bananas. Spread the word. Tell your supermarket. This is blatant stuff. We are hurting people. We need to stop this shit.
Hey Steel_gray, wake up!. Read this. Then read the sequence of events I outlined yesterday.
http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/other-views/story/1143103.html
I think steel grey has Sundays off.
what is with the communism after marx is dead for over 200 years, his ideas have never been implemented and everybody makes their cariers about it through entire political spectum?
edweg
It is called socialism and it is much bigger than Marx and is implemented to some degree in almost every country in the world.
Free yourself from the corporate boggeymen and become politically mature.
Hillary Clinton has some nice friends in the illegal Honduran government, whom she does not want to bother too much. Yeah, it's the usual incestuous political game.
See what Mark Weisbrot reports on the matter in his "Who's in Charge of US Foreign Policy? The coup in Honduras has exposed divisions between Barack Obama and his secretary of state, Hillary Clinton," posted at Common Dreams on 7/17/09:
"It turns out that two of the Honduran coup government's top advisers have close ties to the US secretary of state [Hillary Clinton]. One is Lanny Davis, an influential lobbyist who was a personal lawyer for President Bill Clinton and also campaigned for Hillary. G Gordon Liddy, the man who organised the infamous Watergate break-in in 1972, once said of his friend Davis: "He can defend the indefensible." Davis is doing that quite well lately, testifying for the coup government at a congressional hearing last week, and spinning the media on their behalf.
The other hired gun for the coup government that has deep Clinton ties is Bennett Ratcliff. "Every proposal that Micheletti's group presented was written or approved by [Ratcliff]," a witness told the New York Times on Sunday. Who is Ratcliff? He was a senior executive for Bob Squier, known as the father of the modern political campaign. At his funeral in 2000, which was attended by some of the most powerful Democrats in the country, Squier was eulogised by Bill Clinton. Speaking on behalf of himself and vice-president Al Gore, also at the funeral, Clinton said: "But for [Squier], we might not have been here today." And not only them. In 1992, Squier's firm represented about a third of the Senate's Democrats."
THE BIG LIE
put out by the PR industry, and carried by every mainstream paper, is that Zelaya wants to rule forever by abolishing term limits. If you THINK about it for even a minute it is obvious that this is nonsense. Zelaya's hope was that a Constituent Assembly be elected in November, AT THE SAME TIME as another president would be elected. First the Constituent Assembly would have to write a new constitution (who knows how long that would take). Maybe the elected representatives would change term limits, maybe they wouldn't. And then that constitution would have to be ratified by the voters. During all that time, somebody else would be serving as President. THIS, is supposed to be Zelaya's plot to rule forever? But that is what the media are telling us every day, as you can see by going to Google News.
Fortunately, Latin Americans don't have to read the American press, which is one reason that they voted unanimously to oppose the coup.
For these elite bastards, it certainly is a small, cozy, connected world that the press has a huge blind spot for.
What is worrying the current military backed government is that the military will stop supporting them and support the democratic movement back to having leaders elected not put in place to back special interrest. They are fearful of military support for all the Hondurian people over that of just the ruling families! Democracy worries the current Honduain government now as it did before the overthrow! Zelaya appears to this observer to have "harmed himself" in the eyes of the multi-national business by becoming too close to the middle and poor classes of his country and now suffers for it!
The coup by the current Hondurian government creates the perfect political environment to have a violent civil war by those who want Democracy over that of corporate fascism. They can back down and return to their former crude democracy or have many years of armed civil unrest!
I agree with what you said, well put. However, don't glorify the bloodshed that could ensue in the coming months and years (with the US right wing funding a good number of it and providing domestic cover for the violence that will ensue), especially if you're writing safely back in the US. The right wing will not give up power peacefully in all likelihood and if there is a civil war it will be ugly and costly. These are immoral people defending an immoral system and they don't care about how horrible it has been for most of their countrymen. That will be magnified if outright violence breaks out.
It is not Hugo Chavez. Chavez, Venezuela, socialism, are buzzwords now. Like the old USSR or Cuba, they alone are supposed to be arguments in and of themselves. SOME people, the people who have benefited from the policies that Honduras and similar countries have enacted, the same policies that make Honduras one of the poorest countries in a poor region, are scared by a more leftist path. Others, the majority of people in most of Latin America according to polls on issues and election results, show that they are not happy with the type of policies that the elites in Honduras are representing. Up until recently these ideas weren't an option, people didn't think these ideas had a chance in hell. Now they can see that there is a possibility they become a reality, THAT is what the elites want to cut out from the root before it grows.
What they feared was the positive example (Chavez is not, like any other politician and human being, perfect) that we see in Venezuela. It (Venezuela's path, its constitution and the ideas that are its foundation) is such a "bad thing" that social movements in Ecuador and Bolivia modeled the reformation of their constitutions on Venezuela and the Bolivarian Constitution, which gives direct, participatory, environmental and social rights few people and countries have in the world . See, people might or might not be socialist, communist or capitalist, but they want control over their lives and simply voting for representatives with no direct control, who enact policies that only benefit themselves and their pay masters, has not done them an ounce of good. So they want direct control, they want a say in the policies of government and THAT has the elites scared. First they'll attack even a non-binding resolution, the equivalent of what polling companies do every day around the world, asking people if they want to reform their constitution (pretty hard to argue that the idea is not very democratic), next they'll attach anyone who backs this idea to the evil group or person the propaganda apparatus has created to scare people (Chavez), finally if it succeeds we'll see massive capital flight from Honduras thanks to these elites, who already have large amounts of capital in places like the US that didn't go towards their country's development. I think I've seen this movie before and you should not see this in such an easy to digest light.
Hugo Chavez is not superman, he is not behind every social movement in the region. These groups and people don't want to be anyone's stooge, they simply see things in the Venezuelan revolution that inspire them. He is a fraction as involved as the US is in Honduras (through the NED, USAID, the International Republican Institute and countless people in the US connections to the US government). We're supposed to not notice this and treat it as something as natural as gravity.
I disagree with you El Sabio. What proof do you have that Chavez is "communist?" He is for democratic socialism. He is a populist and a nationalist....with no evidence that he is communist. Why do you right wingers keep brandishing the word "communism" about as if to SCARE people!? We are no longer in dread fear of that word. The Cold War is over El Sabio Pedro. Zelaya would do well to follow Chavez.....and so would we!!!
My friend, it's very simple. Theoretically, communism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive. What happens is that many Americans have been raised to link the economic theory (communism as expressed by Marx, Engels, Castro, and others) with the dictatorship that is usually imposed by people who happen to be communists.
Let us start by saying that these guys are Marxists, or extreme socialists, because very few of them can be true communists (this state is so impractical not even communists dare think it can happen in their lifetimes). But lets call them communists to differentiate them from socialists such as Bachelet and Lula.
As far as I can see, communism means communitary or government ownership of the means of production and commerce. In one sentence, these guys want communes and the government to own the famrs, factories, and pretty much all the commercial entities. If you don't believe it, then observe how the Soviets and Cubans did it. Take a trip and/or read all about it.
I believe a practial man should fear communism because it doesn't work. It ignores human nature, and is advocated by people who don't have much of an understanding of how to make a modern economy work. When I think of it, Jesus of Nazareth was a good communist, but Christians have been ignoring this point for 2000 years - because the brand of communism he preached wasn't too practical as far as they can see. Given human nature, communism has been observed to degenerate into corruption, poverty, environmental damage, and dictatorship.
The evolution into dictatorship is a result of the concentration of power at the top, which leads to 90 year old rulers who remain in power for 50 years, hereditary dictatorships, and all the other ills we have observed.
However, this doesn't have to happen as an absolute certainty - if you can analyse the problem and explain to me how you will get around these practical issues, I will become a communist, because it will surely give me a seat next to Jesus in heaven.
"I believe a practical man should fear communism because it doesn't work. It ignores human nature, and is advocated by people who don't have much of an understanding of how to make a modern economy work."
Let's compare the Mondragon Cooperative in the Spanish/French Basque region with a typical US conglomerate. I think we will find higher productivity and happier people at Mondragon. Now when you say "modern economy" you're most likely referring to the status quo under which the US conglomerate operates, where the conglomerate regularly over-rides the people's will. We see how it works, very well for elites, very poorly for the people. The people prefer something like the Mondragon Cooperative. After all, cooperation is part of human nature too, and maybe the cooperative side is more productive than the competitive side. Certainly if we emphasized the cooperative side, more people would participate. Don't you want more people working together happily? Do you really think people are more driven by the negative than the positive? Even if that's true, we're at a point now, with all the benefits of the industrial revolution, we no longer need competitive hyper-drive, we no longer need economic growth. There was abundance before the IR and so there SHOULD be abundance squared now, don'tcha think? We don't need competition any more.
miniwood
Obviously you haven't a clue what REAL communist is
Corruption, enviornmental damage, poverty, and dictatorship are not exclusive to communism.
The USA is corrupt, enviornmently devestated, 9% of population depends on food banks and large percentage of population is two paychecks away from bankruptcy and is basically a corporate dictatorship.
Hi Pedro,
I'm glad you want to sit next to Jesus in heaven.
I expect you know that the phrase "to each according to their abilities" didn't come from Marx and Engels, but from the Commune of St. Peter in the "Acts of the Apostles." (Acts,4,35)
So how do we get there (without the slaughter of Ananias and Sapphira)? How about this? We start forming workers' co-ops, where wages and decision making are shared. Since we aren't well trained for sharing (you might call it human nature) we set up vocational schools which also teach co-operative methods. For those who are still in corporate or state run enterprises we institute co-management, in which workers, by voting, can have a partial voice in management. In the cities we set up "communal councils" of a few hundred families which can determine which neighborhood projects they like, and can receive state money to put them into effect. And profits from the largest industries are diverted from the pockets of management into "missions" which supply medical care, cheap food and better schools.
That's right, we are describing the policies of Chavez' Venezuela. Just beginning, and we don't know the final result. But considering the sea of poverty and oppression in which most of humanity is drowning, I hope you will agree that it is an experiment worth following.
As for your fear that "communism has been observed to degenerate into corruption, poverty, environmental damage, and dictatorship," I suggest that we look more carefully at history. Both the Soviet Union and Communist China emerged out of catastrophic World Wars and Civil Wars. Unimaginable suffering, starvation, brutality, death and desperation. Their "socialism" did not "degenerate." It had no chance from the beginning. Their true social system was not "socialism." it was warfare and desperation.
Since we haven't had a world war in 64 years now, isn't it time to give these old fears a rest, and try once again what human co-operation can do?
Without too much rhetoric and argument, perhaps we can all do better and see more clearly.
You have a fairly romantic idea about what Chavez is doing in Venezuela. That's not the way it works.
Pedro el Sabio (please learn to use rather than abuse the Spanish language):
You have never been anywhere near Venezuela, so stop pontificating on this forum to folks who, like this poster, spend a lot of time there.
The "it" reference in your post is to WHAT, precisely?
It's your view of Chavez that is unrealistic. If we did it your way, Pinochet, Batista, Somoza and the right wing death squads in El Salvador and Guatemala would be resurrected.
Actually, it appears that they HAVE been resurrected.
i will tell you why kapitalism must kill everything that's alive, to survive - people will leave slavery first day that's available
edweg
Amen to that. The righwingnut repugs has to put a nasty name to everything, or lie about everything. Why cant they come up with any agenda except corrupt destruction?
well said...and I would add, only those who lack critical thinking and knowledge of history would even say there is such a thing as a 'communist state' or 'leader'.....true communism has nothing to do with centralized economic or political dictatorship.
Stalin and Mao were no more "communist' than Bush was 'pro democracy'.
Lenin said 'all power to the soviets' and then destroyed them.
THe people of latin america are breaking free...for land and liberty...not for some centralized leadership only model.
they want real democracy...and if even 'left of center' 'leaders' don't give it to them...they will overthrow them too.
we should follow THAT example. our planet depends on it.
and our neighbors down south depend on us, stopping our govt from destroying what gains they have made.
after 100 years of aiding fascists down there....we should NOW at least have the courage to do that.
and we will stop not this aid, and covert crap.... by voting democrat.
obviously.
direct democracy here in the USA....occupy, resist, produce...all people together....no borders....
"Lenin said 'all power to the soviets' and then destroyed them."
Thank you for that, Tommy.
The truth is that Lenin and Trotsky were COUNTERrevolutionaries. They entered a situation in which workers had directly seized their factories, setting up soviets and workers' committees, and then systematically took the factories back from the workers and put them into the hands of the dictatorial party/state. For the history in detail, read "Bolsheviks and Workers' Control" by Maurice Brinton. Trotsky in particular was responsible for destroying the independence of trade unions. He wrote a book called "Terrorism and Communism" in which he maintained that the militaristic control of the economy during the civil war, (War Communism) was not a temporary expedient, but was communism itself. The trained ignorance of our contemporary Trotskyites is astonishing.
There is a good chance that worker and community democracy will be the outcome of the process in Venezuela. But it is by no means certain. The forces of bureaucratic state control are alive and well, especially within PDVSA, the state oil company. The forces of economic and community democracy are also very strong. We can't tell yet which will win. But this much should be clear. The contradiction between genuine workers' democracy and state "socialism," is much greater than that between state socialism or communism and capitalism. Both are systems of hierarchy. As proof of the similarity, look at how easily the "communists" of both Russia and China slipped over into becoming factory owners and managers.
In Latin America, however, the world may get its first look at a really successful democratic socialism. We'll see. But just the chance and the attempt are worth defending.
Yes.
Thank you for this post.
I strongly recommend that any person who found -tommys1961's- post to be at all confusing or contradictory to their understanding should begin researching the matter now.
"Communism" is now a DOUBLY false bogeyman:
1. Because there is not a single State or influential party that espouses it.
2. Because the now defunct States and parties who DID espouse it, did so only as political and propaganda cover for acting against communistic principles.
"Stalin and Mao were no more "communist' than Bush was 'pro democracy'.
Lenin said 'all power to the soviets' and then destroyed them."
These lines are so totally true that they almost shine with their own light.
well said
I suspect what's really worrying the government in Honduras is the influence Hugo Chavez has over Zelaya, and the possibility that Zelaya will lead Honduras into a very radical leftist path.
Support for demands for better treatment for Latin America's indigenous peoples is one thing, but it's unlikely this makes them lose sleep. However, the re-birth of Marxism and Communism led by Chavez does worry a lot of people in countries such as Honduras. It appears to this observer that Zelaya harmed himself when he became so close to Chavez.
What government in Honduras?
It used to be Castro was the boogieman, now it's Chavez. It's getting old, come up with something original already. For disclosure, how many $$$ are you paid to post your propaganda?
One of my duties is to educate you Americans to make you a bit more sophisticated about the world. I distribute the comments in a totally unbiased and honest fashion, ask the right wing nutty guys at Red States what they thought of me before they kicked me out. This Pedro is feared by the right wing.
An ignorant arrogant supporter of right-wing dictatorships teach us? Thats a laugh. You Americans? Where the hell are you from? Let me guess, a sycophantic "Uncle Pedro" lackey of the Empire? A right-wing Cuban ex-pat? A right wing wealthy coroprate castellano elitist?
If we want that kind of "education" we can watch TV.
If you want to educate me, educate yourself first.
You got me shaking. I was in Chile during the junta. Now teach me.
Huh? Sorry I did not understand any of that. Communism? Do you even know what that means? You need to get your information from somewhere other than the corporate media, you obviously have bought into some lies and propaganda. Zelaya is not a marxist/communist.
By the way he was democratically elected and ought to be reinstated immediately, whether you like him or not.
Life is not that easy or black and white.
I don't think you do understand, the idea expressed is fairly simple: the Honduras Congress, the Honduras Supreme Court, the military authorities, and evidently a significant portion of the population don't want to see the extreme marxist posture you advocate. This is easy to perceive by reading their comments in Spanish blogs as well as comments made by the authorities I mentioned above.
Thus, it doesn't really matter whether you prescribe marxism for Latin America, the key point is those guys are scared by Chavez' strident brand of marxism. It seems the frogs in Honduras aren't too interested in letting themselves be boiled.
It is also evident Zelaya was elected and so on and so forth. However, one must also factor in other facts, such as the Congressional and Supreme Court blessing for the coup d' etat. Maybe because you are Americans who are increasingly used to an imperial presidency in which the Congress lies supine to grovel at the feet of the Israel lobby and other tycoons with cash, you forget that your funding fathers thought it was a good idea to have a three-sided government. And in the case of Honduras, two sides happen to be lined up against Zelaya. The answers aren't so easy as you think.
To close this commentary, I do wish to point out the brand of marxism being preached by President Chavez isn't very practical. It is rudimentary in its nature, fairly corrupt, and based on the obsolete bloviating of a 19th century loser and naive theoreticians.
Are you saying that Chiquita does not want to pay their workers ten cents a case more? Well spell it out for me.
Sorry dude, you got your facts from the maistream media. You might as well have cut and pasted them here (if you did not). You clearly don't have any idea what a Marxism is (have you read Das Kapital?) and you fail to understand the historical context.
If you demonstrated an understanding of the facts, context and politics, you might be considered credible, sadly you do not. Look at some of the other posts here and learn something.
Do you mean the same mainstream media that made all of you Americans foam at the mouth and applaud when Clinton was bombing Yugoslavia in 1999? Or later when you invaded Afghanistan and Iraq? Or the same mainstream media that ignores Israeli crimes? I only read it to understand how so many of you can be so stupid to vote for Bush twice, and to keep donating money to the Israelis, and to forget you don't even pull your weight anymore and live from the loans the rest of us give you.
The MSM certainly did not make ALL of of us into morons but it certainly promotes the same Shah Palavi, Batista, Micheltti corporate elitist governments that you promote.
Sorry but I really don't undestand your point. It seems you have a very shallow understanding of US politics.
What is it that you don't understand about the way the US mainstream media makes you move around like a herd of cows supporting what THEY think is the crusade du jour? What did I mean when I said they made you foam at the mouth when Clinton bombed Yugoslavia in 1999? Do you even have any idea of what happened at the time? Think.
Regarding my understanding of US politics, I watch you with a magnifying glass. People who happen to have control of nuclear weapons and behave like thugs require very close attention.
Your criticism of US elites resonates with the plight of the people but your criticism of Hugo Chavez peters out. If US elites behaved more like Chavez, people would benefit. If Chavez behaved more like US elites, people would suffer. Addressing your concern over Marxism, it's not going to be implemented by thoughtful people. It's an extremist ideology that only fuels an antagonizing relationship between the people and the goverment, providing only an alternate structure to capitalism for the elites to perpetrate their class war upon the people. The people of the world are focusing on ending the class war, putting the elites in the little cages where they belong. So we support Chavez, but only as long as Chavez serves the people. If a leader starts oppressing the people under a banner of socialism or capitalism, the support ends. The structure of the economic system isn't as important as is the people's victory against elite oppression which the Honduran coup represents, as evident by its backing in Washing-town.
And what country are you from sir? If you're from Mexico, your leader's a total shitpot as if Vicente Fox couldn't have been bad enough. I'll take Marxism and Communism over Raygunism any day. Capitalism has been bastardized to the point that people can't even trust regulated capitalism all because unfettered capitalism has ruined the entire planet for at least 29 years. That's what you appear to be afraid of.
By "a lot of people in countries such as Honduras", you mean the rich minority, right?
You red-baiting, Chavez-bashing arguments are not going to convince anyone here. Most readers of Common Dreams wouldn't mind the re-birth of a little "Marxism and Cammunism" in Latin America, or North America, at all. Central America has been the star-pupil of neoliberal Capitalism since the late 1980's. A Friedmanite-libertarian's dream. Has that worked?
i am curious as to who assigned you to troll this site?
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