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TechnoratiHugo Chavez Allies Score Big Wins in Venezuela Elections
CARACAS - President Hugo Chavez's candidates won a majority of the governor's elections in Venezuela on Sunday, but opposition forces could point to gains with victories in several major states as well as the capital city, Caracas.
![[Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has hailed his party's majority victories in key local polls but recognized opposition gains, in five states and the capital Caracas.
(AFP/Thomas Coex)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/chavez1124.jpg "chavez1124.jpg")
Both sides declared victory.
"The people are telling me, 'Chavez, continue down the same road, the road of socialism,' " Chavez said early Monday just after the main results were announced.
But he also acknolwedged the opposition's advance. "We have to carry out a self-criticism where that's necessary.
The stakes were high because the election results will determine Chavez's next moves at home and abroad.
Chavez's gubernatorial candidates won 17 of the 22 states, according to the state election board. The opposition held onto Zulia and Nueva Espartaand took control of Miranda, Carabobo, Tachira and metropolitan Caracas, where Antonio Ledezma is the new mayor.
Chavez can claim satisfaction because his older brother, Adan, won a tight race to be the new governor in their home state, Barinas. Their father is the outgoing governor.
The opposition was hopeful that it would win Carabobo and Tachira, the two other states whose results remained in doubt early Monday morning.
Chavez's party won all but two of the the governor's races contested in 2004, so while he won most of the races on Sunday, the opposition parties gained ground, particularly in the country's biggest states.
Chavez had signaled that he wanted a mandate Sunday to seek public approval early next year to abolish term limits so he can seek another six-year term in 2012. He lost a similar referendum one year ago, his only electoral defeat in 10 years as president.
Chavez also wanted a mandate to further his ''21st Century Socialist Revolution'' so he can nationalize more companies and gain more political power for both himself and his followers so they can rule as they see fit.
Charismatic and constantly preaching his solidarity with the poor, Chavez enjoyed a 57 percent approval rating in October in one poll and had bet that his popularity would pull his candidates to victory.
Chavez also wanted to fortify his role as Latin America's most powerful leader in the post-Castro era. As a measure of this, he will host Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in Caracas on Wednesday in a meeting of two oil-rich nations that have testy relations with the United States.
Opposition forces wanted to build upon last year's victory to thwart Chávez's grand ambitions.
Chavez crisscrossed Venezuela over the past two months, using the full force of his government to push for his 22 candidates for governor and 328 candidates for mayor.
State television and radio stations broadcast pro-Chavez ads, and government officials handed out free refrigerators, washing machines and mattresses in poor neighborhoods.
The race in the western plains state of Barinas was important symbolically.
Chavez's father had been governor for 10 years. Two of his brothers hold public jobs in Barinas while two others have contracts to do business with the state.
Accusations that the Chavez family during its 10 years in power has built mansions and bought ranches had given Barinas Mayor Julio Cesar Reyes a fighting chance to defeat Adan Chavez and inflict an embarrassing defeat for President Chavez.
In Barquisimeto, a city in western Venezuela, Chavez's ex-wife, Marisabel Rodríguez, was running for mayor on an anti-Chavez platform. The result was not known early Monday morning.
Also not known was the result in Sucre, a sprawling slum district in metropolitan Caracas. Opposition candidate Carlos Ocariz ran against Jesse Chacon, a former Chavez minister.
In the Sucre neighborhood of Petare, two dozen pro-Chavez voters didn't identify Chacon by name when asked whom they supported.
''For the revolutionary process,'' said Yumelis Montano, a 47-year-old seamstress, ''it is going well.'' Montano, like virtually all the other pro-Chavez voters, cited government assistance in explaining her vote. Montaño has received free medicine from Cuban doctors who work in poor neighborhoods in a program created by Chavez's close relationship with Cuba.
Wendys Bello, 33, voted for the government candidates because she credited Chavez with allowing her to get her high school degree next month in one of the government's free educational programs known as ''missions.'' Dixia Nava, 48, favored Chavez's candidates because of government grocery stores in poor neighborhoods that allow her to buy food at a deep discount.
Jorge Padilla, a 40-year-old house painter, voted for Chavez's candidates because Chavez gave citizenship to thousands of illegal Colombian immigrants in Venezuela, like himself.
But many other people at this voting station in Petare favored opposition candidate Ocariz, a former congressman, because of skyrocketing crime.
Jhon Saez was robbed of $5,000 by a man who shoved a gun in his bank as he left a bank 10 days ago.
Alberto Flores was held up by a gun-wielding assailant outside his home on Wednesday and lost $200.
''Chavez doesn't care about the crime problem,'' Flores said. At a more upscale Caracas neighborhood, Magaly Rodriguez, a retired government worker, called Chavez a ''demagogue, a liar, a person taking us backward,'' when she explained why she voted for the opposition slate.
Venezuelans voted on touch screen machines. Each person had up to six minutes to vote. After voting, each person dipped their right pinkie in an inkwell to prevent voting a second time.
94 Comments so far
Show AllViva Chavez!
Thumbs down, CIA, NED, USAID!
Now for that Russian ABM base in the Venezuelan (Those pesky Iranian and North Korean ICBM's, ya know?) Orinco province and the x-band radar station in Cuba or better yet in Nicaragua.
Hey, The GREAT SATAN needs to learn how the 'other side lives, da?'
TheAZCowBoy
Tombstone, AZ.
Viva Evo Morales!
Viva Fidel Castro (80 more years!)
Viva la Revolucion, si! si! si!
No more IMF!
Now more World Bank!
No more US ambassador rats in Venezuela and Bolivia!
What crap spin!! Chavez got his butt kicked! Caracas, Maracaibo, Valencia and Miranda state. The oppo captured 16 million people in their states out of 28 million in the entire country. To say this was a victory for Chavez is spin of the lowest kind.
My lower and middle class Venezuelan family members are joyful!! Chavez is running out of oil money to buy favors.
Amazing, all of my fellow lefties on this site hate big oil except when it funds the coffers of jokers like Chavez. I've actually been down there in the last few years. The decline is obvious.
It's all sour grapes for you exiled reichwing Venezulano bandidos, pendejo! :)
bdart:
1. I hate to call you a liar, but you are way past the spin that you claim others have committed. The entire voting population of Venezuela is 16 million, so if you do not want to be called liar I suggest you figure out how 100% of that electorate voted for the opposition when only 65% of those 16 million even voted! Also, the number of votes for the opposition was 300,000 less than it was in December of last year. Please explain how by receiving fewer votes the opposition kicked anyone's butt.
2. Why are your lower class Venezuelan family members joyful that their country is running out of money? I find that absolutely incredible, and again believe that you are lying.
3. I spend several months of each year in Venezuela--since April of 2003. I have personally witnessed the positive changes under Chavez.
4. Sounds like you are, in addition to a liar, a sore loser, cuate.
The people of Venezuela are spending Exxon-Mobile, Phillips Petroleum and Dutch Shells 'inheritance,' viva Chevez!
Remember gringos, Chavez gives your poor reduced oil prices during the cold midwest winters. Have you asked the US oil robber barons why they won't? :(
TheAZCowBoy
Tombstone, AZ.
Hey Pilgrims, Venezuela has the most beautiful women in the world. you ever run down the Venezolanas that have become Miss World?' My honey Gisela Teaches at LaSalle, lives in Valencia (Miss Veenezuela 2001) and looks great in a stamp sized bikini!
Why can't we get as good a president as Hugo Chavez? Oh yeah, Diebold, and way too many brain washed upsale whites and white upscale wannabes who never will be, but they don't get it that the super rich are waging a class war on them and all the rest of us.
AD
If we only used the same measuring stick against all elected politicians, then honest discussion can start. Do I think that Chavez is more detrimental to his country than Bush to ours? Not yet.
Will Obama demonizing Chavez backfire on Obama? Yes it will.
Remember Aristad and Haiti (and our overthrow of him, a democratically elected president), and the attempted overthrow of Chavez. Oh yeah, we were just trying to spread democracy.
Oil prices are down, but don't be fooled. The economic crisis that was created (and is still being fostered on us, that still never addresses two critical issues of over-consumption and over-population) will not stop until either the crash or the acceptance of change. I don't think we will accept the changes that we need to make.
Whenever you hear Bush say, or Obama say, buy more, they are encouraging you to sell your soul and life down the drain. Buy less, consume less, don't support the corporate machine.
peace requires justice
TV listings indicate PBS will broadcast a FRONTLINE documentary of some kind (about Chavez), tomorrow evening, Tuesday Nov. 25.
It will be interesting to see if PBS trys to demonize Chavez - or if he comes across as a demon all by himself. I'm hoping he won't, since I favor what he's trying to do --so far as I see and understand it correctly.
His personalized brand of democratic socialism certainly has the west's oligarch robber barrons and MSM in a tither - which is at least one big count in his favor.
mary beardslee lived there for 6 months.He sure beats Bush&CO and what has happenened to America. Payed 19 cents for a gallon of gas-they have free health care and dental care. There illeterate rate per captia is less % then the US. The US is a banana republic-there are 2 classes the rich and poor all part of the plan WMD of the financial system of the US. We all go on how we are the greatest-lol-yea we slaughtered over a million Iraqs for their oil-the list is long and Karma is coming into play. We are hated-not because of our phony freedom we lost under Bush we are hated for what we do to other countries.We are hated for our thinking we are the greatest while we harm anyone who gets in our leaders way. We went to Germany to aid the Jews-who will come and help us? China and Russia are now # 1 who will come and help us? No one...
And 19 Cent a gallon gasoline HELPS the environment exactly how?
Your comment about literacy is interesting. According to the UNITED NATIONS, the adult literacy rate in the US is 99%, which ranked it number 12 in the world. In Venezuela it is 93%, which ranked it number 74 in the world, 0.2% better than number 75 Colombia. 93% is not bad, but saying that 93 is higher than 99 suggests a lack of understanding of basic mathematics principals.
I tend not to trust US statistics. Furthermore, Venezuela has had but 6 years to bring its literacy rate from the basement to 93%. The United States has had over 225 years; 12th place is nothing to crow about for a country as wealthy as this.
Do you really believe literacy rates are 99% in the US? You got that BS from wikipedia. I found various studies that differed wildly. One said 73%. One said 84%. I found another that said the adult literacy rate in the US in 61%.
I think only a fool would believe literacy rates are actually 99% in the US.
Did you miss the article on this website recently by Chris Hedges about how pathetic our abilities to read in this country have become?
You're crazier than Carla!
Just under forty percent of folks in the US are functionally illiterate.
They don't need to be able to read--they can get all they need to know to support the war machine from watching Fox News.
"Just under forty percent of folks in the US are functionally illiterate."
Well. this forum would seem to corroborate that. However, that is only true if you count the huge illegal immigrant population, as well as the somewhat smaller legal immigrant and refugee population.
Plus, it is blindingly obvious that the U.S. public school system has failed to teach any semblance of critical thinking skills.
Actually I got it from the United Nations Human Development Report. Which is the same place I got the Venezuelan statistics.
Next question?
Put the link, then.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot that 99% literacy rate comes from the CIA's World Fact Book.
I guess I should believe it's 99% too, since that number comes from such a honest and respectable institution like the CIA?
LMAO!
Nationalize all of our banks, gas companies, and car companies. Kick the wealthy CEOS in the street with nothing. Suck the billions out of the upper class and kick that money around some. Use those billions of dollars to provide housing for all people, improve the infrastructure, switch over to green energy, and break down agri-farms so small farmers can produce our food in an organic way. GET RID OF THE DARN EMPIRE!!Sell the freakin' bases and stupid military crap. Get people nationalized health care. Screw capitalism. It sucks dog piles.
Oil prices will dictate what Chavez will do. I really think you should go to Venezuela before you get too carried away with this guy.
His largesse isn't shared that equally by Venezuelan's.
The victory of Chavez is frightening and a clear setback for democracy. I hope Obama's paying close attention to this.
"Oil prices will dictate what Chavez will do."
Chavez is an oil-dictator.
Joe, No matter how many names you post under, you are the same rightwing troll.
Chavez is NOT an oil dictator. If you want to meet an oil dictator, Bush/Cheney and King Abdullah are your dictators, you nitwit ! Obama has more important matters to pay attention to rather than wagging his finger at Chavez. And if he thinks Chavez can be taken down, he's going to regret even thinking about trying. The US already gave Russia plenty of nukes and Russia has already supplied Chavez without a peep from the US. And since Chavez has plenty of cash, he can DEFEAT this country preemptively in theory. Oh but wait, China and India are already shackling America to her ankles and wrists. If you don't like Chavez, then shut up and give up your stupid gas guzzler !
you're almost funny.
I can't go to Venezuela, but I HAVE read a detailed biography of Chavez ( "Hugo!" ), currently in bookstores, and have also read Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" which documents some of the economic horrors perpetrated on the have-nots
of Venezuela (the "haves" never seem to suffer too much in these cases) during the U.S.'s attempt to Friedmanize their economy and during the supposedly democratic
regime preceding the election of Chavez. If you can't go to Venezuela, you might think about doing some in-depth reading about it.
There is a very good, very thorough analysis of the oil proces and their potential effects on Chavez' programs on www.venezuelanalysis.com.
I really think you should read it before you get too carried away panning Chavez.
Tell us about YOUR time spent in Venezuela. I spend a few months there each year, and have since 2003.
And HIS largesse is incorrect--the largesse is the country of Venezuela's. And it is available to everyone--rich folks can shop at the mercales--with discounts of up to 50% on basic food items--just the same as poor folks.
I find Chavez to be considerably more credible as a leader than any president that the US has had in my lifetime.
Chavez may sound a bit harsh to you but you can't argue the fact that at least he puts the country's oil revenue to actually fixing the country's infrastructure. Prove to me that the same can be said of the US, Saudi Arabia, Russia, or just about any oil producing nation.
The anti-Chavez people who foam at the mouth almost always own a gas guzzling SUV or pickup truck that sends Chavez more money. Give up the gas guzzler and try taking advantage of public transportation and he won't be getting money.
Actually, he doesn't. Venezuela's electrical grid is in terrible need of capital investment. Since there hasn't been any, Caracas now suffers from blackouts.
Actually, Venezuela never had any capital investment until Chavez came to power. Before he came to power, the country was in shambles just like the US is getting into thanks to FAILED "libertarian" economic policies. Venezuela is recovering in public infrastructure by ditching the IMF, World Bank, CIA, etc ... And Caracas only had a few rare blackouts that have been fixed no thanks to the US. You're just jealous that Venezuela is kicking your rightwing NAZI forces to the curb and doing great on its own. The U.S. needs to mind its own fucking business as it's FAILING FAILING FAILING.
Right on, w/ statement on US presidents, except Mr Carter
MICHAEL W. JOHNSON
Viva El Frente/Verde
http://hodad26-senorpescado.blogspot.com
www.senorpescado.com
www.fairtradefish.org
Carter did manage to create the process to return the Canal Zone to Panama--but he failed in many other areas.
He's been a MUCH better EX-president.
One of the proposed Constitutional amendments would have allowed Chavez to seek an additional term in office -- didn't NYC recently change its charter to give Bloomberg the right to seek an additional term? It was perfectly legal for FDR to seek the presidency four times until the US constitution was amended after his death ( in 1947.) I never quite understood why that was done, and I think the Republicans could easily have elected Reagan a 3rd time if they hadn't shot themselves in the foot with that 22nd amendment.
We really need a man like Chavez as President of the United States to help us become democratic. Well, maybe by the next election people will realize that Obama is really just another Manchurian candidate for the fascist Military Industrial Complex. Hopefully people will start to consider voting outside the two party system.
"Chavez also wanted a mandate to further his ''21st Century Socialist Revolution'' so he can nationalize more companies and gain more political power for both himself and his followers so they can rule as they see fit."
Sounds like a totalitarian dictator to me, we just got rid of one who was going down that path (warrant less wiretaps, incarceration without chargers etc.) or did you FORGET about all that?
And what about Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? Oh wait, they're your "allies" who are supposedly helping the US on the phoney "war on terror". If you don't like Chavez, shut up and throw away your big butt gas guzzler and then Chavez won't be getting money ! Besides, name me one leader of an oil producing nation who has wisely put their oil revenue towards repairing public infrastructure and helping everyone out just like Chavez. Certainly not one in the US, Russia, or Saudi Arabia !
Here's the headline and the first paragraph of the New York Times account of the election:
"Venezuelan Opposition Gains in Vote
By SIMON ROMERO
Published: November 24, 2008
CARACAS, Venezuela — President Hugo Chávez’s supporters suffered defeat in several state and municipal races on Sunday, with the opposition retaining power in oil-rich Zulia, the country’s most populous state, and winning crucial races here in the capital, the National Electoral Council said."
No suggestion of anti-Chavez bias here, huh? :-)
The NY Times is hopelessly anti-Chavez. I go to the Miami-based ProgresoWeekly.com
when seeking solid info on Latin America. You'll find some excellent articles there by the no-nonsense Saul Landau. There are sometimes columns about Bolivian politics there (and also at www.ain-bolivia.org).
Anyone who isn't convinced that Chavez is NOT a dictator should check out the Venezuelan Constitution. An English translation is available on www.venezuelanalysis.com. It reads like a progressive dream come true.
Among other things, that Constitution states that ONLY those convicted of crimes may be disqualified as candidates.
Some things are only worth the paper they are written on, if that...
"Among other things, that Constitution states that ONLY those convicted of crimes may be disqualified as candidates."
Am I missing something here? Your tone makes it sound like something is wrong with this stipulation. If we had that law here, Ted Stevens wouldn't have been able to run for his seat in the Senate.
Sounds pretty damn good to me.
bligh4
Just what I want to support, another ego-maniacal autocrat. I thought there were enough already in the world.
Well, at least the economy is doing far better in Venuzuela than it is in this miserable nation of ours. Thanks to 8 years of autocrat bullying in Washington and around the world especially in Iraq, the US is shackled at her wrists and ankles and after doing a lot of nation pimping on wars and trade, she's about to get a chastity belt locked around her wait for at least a decade or until this nation can behave itself ! And you may not like Chavez but at least the man knows how to wisely use that oil revenue to repair the country's infrastructure and pull more people out of poverty. You cannot say the same of the US, Russia, Saudi Arabia, or just about any oil producing nation.
Doing better? Would you like to compare Venezuela vs America in Unemployment, Inflation, and crime statistics???
Liberty,
The US is not teetering on the edge of the abyss because of unemployment, inflation or crime. But because its economy has not grown and its debt is astronomical.
BUT, if you check the figures for the presidential period averages in Venezuela, you will find that both unemployment and inflation are MUCH lower under Chavez than they have been since the dictatorship of Perez Jimenez (to whom Ike gave the US MNedal of Freedom--hahahahahaha) ended in 1958.
During the past 5 years, Venezuela has averaged just over 10% annual growth in the Internal Brute Product. It has very little debt--less, in fact, than its reserves.
Tell us what the US average has been, please. And DO fill us in on all those trillions in reserves. Oh, those are debt....
Oh, and liberty, last I saw, America referred to North America, Central America and South America. Venezuela is a country in AMERICA.
Go ahead, then. Let's see your stats.
Certainly.
Unemployment:
USA: 6.5% (October) source US Bureau of Labor Statistics
VENEZUELA: 7.3%, source http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3948
Inflation
USA: 3.7%, source US Bureau of Labor Statistics
VENEZUELA 34.5% (food inflation is 51%), year ending in August 2008. Source http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3948, www.eluniversal.com
Crime (Murder rate)
USA: 4 per 100,000. Falling.
Venezuela: 31 per 100,000; 130 per 100,000 in Caracas (Highest rate of any city in the world). Rising.
Comment, please.
"Unemployment:
USA: 6.5% (October) source US Bureau of Labor Statistics
VENEZUELA: 7.3%, source http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3948"
The BLS fabricates their unemployment numbers every year. To begin with, 6.5% does not include those who gave up looking for employment and are long term unemployed. Moreover, there are more temporary contract positions these days than there are full time permanent.
"Inflation
USA: 3.7%, source US Bureau of Labor Statistics
VENEZUELA 34.5% (food inflation is 51%), year ending in August 2008. Source http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3948, www.eluniversal.com"
The only reason prices are artificially "low" is government subsidizes Big Agri and Latin America is giving fat ass LOSERS such as yourself all the junk you could ever ask for.
"Crime (Murder rate)
USA: 4 per 100,000. Falling."
It's not that low. Besides, the gun lobbyists did all that they could to fudge the numbers. Gun violence is rising in the USA and you know it. You and your NRA propagandists are the reason national security in this nation is a SICK JOKE. America needs to be seriously DISCIPLINED and since it can't hold its urge to shoot shoot shoot, GUN CONTROL is seriously needed and no, it's not fascist. When GUN CONTROL is put in motion, then the crime murder rate will come close to 4 in 100,000. Right now, it's more like 4,000 in 100,000 when you include all those crimes related to gun violence.
Are you seriusly sugesting that guns motivate some one to commit crime? Guns have nothing to do with crime, crime is caused by other factors such as poverty. As the poverty rate falls, so does the crime rate. Guns are fare more regulated today then they were 50 years ago, so what has changed? It is not because Guns are easier to get, other factors are involved. Gun Control is a bandaid, not a solution, if gun control is all that is passed, you might as well do nothing. Only when you address the root cause, will things change and then Guns do not come into play.
"Are you seriusly sugesting that guns motivate some one to commit crime?"
Yes and you know it. Most of the murders happening today would have been far less likely if they didn't have the gun(s) to satisfy their urge. Instead they would have learned to sit down, shut up, and learn to solve their difficulties without guns.
"Guns have nothing to do with crime"
Oh yes they do and you know it !
"crime is caused by other factors such as poverty"
That maybe true but since you've been a die-hard Republican, you're just as guilty for supporting pols who cause poverty.
"Guns are fare more regulated today then they were 50 years ago"
And what about 10 or 20 years ago when the crime rate wasn't as high? Thanks to loosening them up, there's more crime in hell and the police, good or bad, are finding their lives in far more danger than ever before. Oh gee thank you NRA for being a terrorist group. No wonder Al Quaida doesn't even bother trashing this country any further. With "friends" like the NRA who needs enemies?
"Only when you address the root cause, will things change and then Guns do not come into play."
Guns and rightwing policies are the two root causes I never see you bothering to address. And if you're a member of the NRA, SHAME ON YOU. The NRA works with special interest monied elites and their puppet pols who push for more poverty in return.
Until America can prove herself to be well-disciplined on guns, GUN CONTROL is seriously needed.
I take it you're the neighborhood ideologue.
There is no correlation between gun control and crime, except that there seems to be a possibility that increasing gun control tends to increase crime.
There is no correlation between gun control and violence, except (see above).
No gun control law has ever reduced violent crime. Some may have reduced gun violence and gun homicide, but the overall figures stay pretty much the same (or get worse).
You should stop arguing from ideology, and get some facts. Such as "And what about 10 or 20 years ago when the crime rate wasn't as high?" Violent crime rates in the U.S. were much higher 10 and 20 years ago than they are today.
Gun control will cause the US to become a violence free paradise, as criminals everywhere rush to obey the law and turn in their guns.
Just like Mexico or Jamaica.
You don't even know Mexico or Jamaica so quit your lying. Those two nations watched their crime rates go through the roof when gun control was taken out. Guns are nothing more than a load of metal meant to terrorize and kill. You're just rambling some NRA propaganda which has been proven false.
Actually, it is illegal in Mexico for anyone who is not in the armed services or the police to own a gun.
Problem is: the police and the army constitute the biggest group of murderers in Mexico. After them comes the group of FORMER police and FORMER army who are hitmen for the narco cartels.
My dear friend, lay off the hemp. Then go to a reputable MEXICAN progressive newspaper, like La Jornada (www.jornada.unam.mx) and read about the gun crime situation in Mexico today, bearing in mind that under the Ley Federal de Armas de Fuego y Explosivos, calibers above .38 are completely illegal, semi-automatics are completely illegal, and concealed carry is completely illegal. If you are really motivated, try to dig up crime statistics from 1974 (when the gun control laws were imposed, not to decrease crime, but to make it easier to control the population during election fraud) to the present. This assumes you speak Spanish, of course. Since you seem to know EVERYTHING about Mexico, I assume you do. I, who know "nothing" about Mexico certainly do.
Actually, the Secretaria de Gonernacion gives permits to carry concealed weapons.
As does the Procuradaria General de la Republica.
Problem is, half of their ministers are currently under house arrest being investigated for narcotrafficking.
I DO speak Spanish, BTW.
SEGOB, the PGR and SEDENA give permits at their discretion. So does the Sherrif of San Francisco County. If you are filthy rich, connected, or named Diane Feinstein, you might even get one. If you are part of the other 99.98% of the population, forget it.
Really?
Is there a point you are making.
The permits given here in Mexico are given to narco hitpersons, kidnappers, the usual suspects. Except that the gifting is not free.
I had a concealed weapons permit in Washington State when I lived in the US.
Maybe if we have GUN CONTROL, the US murder rate will fall to the rate in Mexico, which does indeed have strict GUN CONTROL, and the US suicide rate will fall to the rate of Japan, which also has strict GUN CONTROL?
I am not supposed to insult, so I won't, but your comment above is so very tempting: 4,000 out of 100,000? Do you realize that what that means is you are saying that 1 out of 25 Americans is killed by GUN VIOLENCE each year? Tell me you are not really that, er, foolish. Please.
You don't even sound like you know jack about Mexico and Japan. Try visiting those countries when you're done being a foam-at-the-mouth rightwing lunatic.
Oh I have been in Mexico, border towns and interior and of my friends and buisness contacts down there tell me owning a firearm is illegal but they tell me they own them anyway. Guns make you a criminal just like alcohol makes you an alcoholic.
Thanks for the reply. I figured the stats would be nominally worse in Venezuela than the US, but not quite as much as you cite. I haven't yet had the time to check these myself, but you deserved an honest reply. My next question is what these stats implicate. Are they measurably worse than they were 10 years ago before Chavez came into power? Is there reason in your opinion that Chavez's socialist policies are directly responsible for these indicators?
The murder stats are demonstrably worse. The inflation has to be compared with other countries in the region. In other words, if everybody else has 100% inflation, and you "only" have 50%, you are doing a better job than your neighbors. On the other hand, if everybody else (except Argentina) has single digit inflation and you have 30%, you are mishandling your economy. The second is the example in Venezuela, which today has, by far, the worse inflation in America.
You seem to be making the implication that I do not like Chavez. You are quite correct. Unlike shrill Carla Walters, I have not accepted St. Hugo as my own personal savior, and I do not worship him. I am not comparing him to Bush, nor to center-right democratically elected Latin presidents like Calderon, Uribe, or Garcia of Peru, I am comparing him to center-left democrats like Vazquez of Uruguay, Lula of Brazil, and Bachalet of Chile.
ALL of the last three have, with no bombast, managed to decrease inflation, decrease crime, and, especially in the case of Brazil, DRAMATICALLY increase living standards. Since Lula and Vazquez came to power, their parties have faced the voters, once in Uruguay, and several times in Brazil. They have won repeatedly, and done so without disqualifying or threatening to jail a single candidate (Who is the Brazilian Leopoldo Lopez?), without shutting down a single TV station, and without tapping a single telephone call. How can you not respect them?
Chavez, on the other hand, is a buffoon who version of "socialism" is based on resource extraction and nothing else. (Venezuela cannot even feed itself, which is why Chavez backed down from his confrontation with Uribe. If Columbia cuts off the food exports, their economy will suffer. Venezuela will starve.) With the price of oil collapsing, whither Chavez?
Now cue more shrill, profanity laced rants from Carla Walters and others who's Messiah I have just profaned.
Liberty:
Why not make an economic comparison that means something?
1. Why not compare Venezuela's past 5 years of more than 10% growth with other countries in the region? Feel free to post the resulkts of that comparison here.
2. Why not give us an analysis of WHY Venezuela's inflation is so high at the same time as its reserves are so high, its growth is so high, and its unemployment rate drops every quarter. Clue: More folks can CONSUME (buy stuff) under Chavez.
3. And why NOT compare Chavez to OTHER politicians of different ideologies? Why not compare him to Calderon or Uribe or Garcia? You choose to compare him to OTHER pols of VERY different ideological persuasion--after all, Chavez is HARDLY of the same ideological stripe as Bachelet, Vazquez or Lula--far from it. (BTW, Bachelet's presidency is in trouble because of salaries inadequate to live on--witness the strike just last week of bureaucrats--and is the most recent elections the right wing pols made a very strong comeback.) If you are going to compare Chavez to Lula, Vazquez and Bachelet, that is comparing apples and opranges. And there are other apples out there--on the same continent, in fact.
4. Please indicate the tv station shut down by Chavez. It is not RCTV--as I was THERE in Caracas when that channel was not RENEWED on the open airwaves. It still broadcasts on cable there.
5. Please indicate the phone-tapping targets by the Chavez government.
6. Please indicate the amount of food that flows from Colombia to Venezuela. Clue: since Venezuelan food prices are HALF that of those in Colombia, a very healthy contraband food exportation cartel held sway until recently FROM Venezuela TO Colombia.
7. Since you claim to read Venezuelanalysis.com, please read Mark Weisbrot's analysis of oil prices versus budget issues in Venezuela--and REPORT to us those findings.
In order to prevail in a debate, it is NOT de riguer to LIE, as that just costs you credibility across the board.
Nor is it necessary to plant red herrings--for example comparing crime rates with economic growth--or socialists with social democrats (the correct name, BTW).
Look, I'll tell ya Liberty, I appreciate your thoughtful postings and you've given me some pause about Chavez. My initial reaction is to root for the socialist team, because I've decided that my own positions make me a democratic socialist, and I obviously don't consider that a bad thing.
I had heard about the newspaper closure, and that did cause me concern, and I knew some of his more outlandish antics driven by his clearly large ego had turned off alot of people and leaders in the region who were otherwise sympathetic to his reforms. I have not heard about the wire tapping or threats to jail opponents. If this is true, something is clearly amiss.
However, at the same time I know the former ruling elite were a band of thugs, and with the help of Bush's CIA ran a coup on him in 2002, so I've been willing to cut him a little slack for his heated rheoric. And somebody needed to say those thing about Bush at the UN... I've been thinking here's a guy who brought a gun to the gun fight, and more power to him.
Carla clearly has some different ideas to present, some of them I want to hear more about. Sadly, screaming "Nazi!" at you isn't helping her arguments out at all. I come on this site to learn primarily, not to be right. Thanks for playing.
Please do not mistake my criticism of Chavez for any kind of support for the AD/COPEI kleptocrats who (mis)ruled Venezuela before 1998. Venezuela recieved a FORTUNE in oil wealth during the 1980's price run up, and all of it was wasted and/or stolen.
If Chavez died tomorrow, at least he would have the pleasure of knowing that both AD and COPEI died before him, and all Venezuelans should thank him for destroying those two parties.
That, of course, is the real shame about Chavez. Having rid the country of the old thieves who ran it, he could have created a genuine social-democratic democracy, as Tabare Vazquez (who also basically destroyed the old Liberal and Colorado parties, although these parties were far less venal than their Venezuelan counterparts.) is doing in Uruguay. A country were those who disagree are not labeled "enemies", a country who's inflation and crime rates are under control, a country that does not needlessly pick fights with the US, Mexico, Columbia, Spain, Peru, and anyone else who does not kowtow to it. And, most of all, a country where the opposition does not hate the president so badly that when they DO take power (and all oppositions do take power, sooner or later.) they will dismantle all the social programs Chavez has implemented.
Of course, that last assumes that the social programs do not self dismantle with $30 a barrel oil. This is perhaps Chavez's worse sin. He has presided over an absolutely unprecedented financial windfall, and has also frittered the money away, both by buying friends abroad and buying votes at home. Meanwhile, as I mentioned before, Venezuela's infrastructure continues to fall apart, and the economy is the least diversified in Latin America.
It is all a shame.
Gee, liberty, I would not mistake your criticism of Chavez for anything but what is IS: that of someone who has done NOTHING for his own country as it falls into the abyss, but continues to try to tapar al sol con el dedo by pointing out that Venezuela is a country in the Third World.
The US gubbmint fabricates its data to keep the public in the dark as much as possible and cover up for their failed "libertarian" economic policies so it's a whole lot worse than what they claim it to be.
The US does definitely cook the books on inflation. From you own experience recall that in the 1970's you could by a paperback book for 95 cents and a good car for $3000. A 3.7% inflation rate would result in about a three fold increase in price from then to now. The US inflation rate does not include food or energy costs. And things like TVs are counted as a price decrease because the price for an HDTV equivalent in 1970 was astronomically high comparied to today's prices. (That is, the inflation rate does not take into account technological advances.) Hence we have an artificially low official rate. Think about what you paid for health care, food, housing, in 1970 verses what it costs us now. My monthly rent in Boston ranged between $40 (a dump) and $125 (a nice place) in 1970. While I no longer live in Boston, I think it would be hard to find an 3BR apartment for $120 to $375 a month today, don't you?
True. On the other hand, think what you paid for a Color TV in 1970, (or ANYTHING electronic, a TRS-80 computer in the late 1970's cost $500, which is double what I paid for my E-machine tower last year.) or to make a long distance call, or to fly cross country, or for tires for your car. I was born in 1967, and get a kick out of seeing what the inflation rate from my birth to now is; it is presently about SIX hundred per cent, so a $3,000 car in 1967 would run about $18,000 today, which is a about right. Understand too, that the 1967 car did not include airbags (which add almost $1,000 to the price) or any anti-polluton devices. You are undoubtably correct about housing, but with everything else, I think prices have actually dropped on a lot of things.
A $3000 car in 1967 was a pretty good car. From http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_things_cost_in_1967
Average cost of a new car:
1967: $2,750
2007: $28,200
This is over 10 times rather than the 6 as predicted by inflation. Daggone pesky Congress mandating things like seat belts has driven the cost up. The auto companies have of course fought every safety and milage improvement but that is an entirely different issue. And I would agree that cars are better today, but do we really need power seats, power windows, and the greatest American improvement in history, Side Pillar Lighting?
Too bad about Zulia state. I worry for the Wayuu whose land is rich in coal and about to be given over to foreign mining operations for exploitation.
You never heard the American press say one word about the oppressive, criminal dictators that the US supported who gave away Venezuelan oil for mere bribes and didn't do anything for the majority of the people in Venezuela. They only criticize the leaders that are on the side of the people. Are they really so unscrupulous or are they truly in the hands of the CIA?
It is very difficult for a democracy to flourish when you have the CIA, NED and USAID trying to subvert it all the time. It forces countries like Cuba and Venezuela to take measures to protect the advances they make on behalf of the people-- like extending term limits. This is a new system of government. The opposition wants to overthrow it, not simply be a different version of it. Any temporary dilution or weakness in the revolution makes space for the old guard to move right in. When the minority opposition owns all the land and has the majority of the wealth, it is difficult to hang on to democratically earned gains by the poor. Imagine if the British didn't relinquish control over the colonies. How differently would our nation have turned out had they continually sought to regain control?
physicscitizen said:
"I am both glad that Chavez 'won' and I'm also glad that he didn't win completely. This is the whole point of a representative government. There are more people that need representation than the poor, just as in the USA there are more people that need representation than the rich. Neither extreme is truly viable."
With modern communications, the representative government dinosaur that mostly represents Big Money could now become extinct. Can you imagine letting the people decide by having referendums on issues here like Chavez has in Venezuela?
Obama is not allowed online anymore. He is fed filtered news and corporate media to keep him isolated from the people in a "protective" cocoon consisting of the power brokers responsible for our plight.
"Obama is not allowed online anymore."
Obama's not using a Blackberry isn't exactly the equivalent of being 'fed filtered news and corporate media'. People have failed to notice that Axelrod & Plouffe retain their closeness to Obama.
I absolutely disagree with Biden, Clinton & Obama on Venezuela. But the Venezuelans have shown once again that they continue to support the Bolivarian revolution.
The US needs to stop calling Chavez a "dictator". That is malicious slander. Viva Chavez!
Indeed it is. No one sane doubts that he won a majority of the votes; ergo he is not a dictator.
Now, if the left would stop whining about how Calderon of Mexico and Uribe of Columbia, who also won more votes, far more than Chavez in Uribe's case, your complaint would be taken more seriously.
As someone who lives in Mexico, I do not claim that Calderon is a dictator. He is sitting in the presidential chair administering the narcotrafficking as a result of election fraud, however. Here we call him "espurioso" (spurious).
I don't call Uribe a dictator either. He also administers the narcotrafficking in Colombia--as well as the paramilitaries HE and his family created.
Both are horrendous abuses of human rights.
And anyone who supports them is like the folks who supported Pinochet and Videla--a fascist.
And, last I checked, this site was not designed to be a promoter of dialogue among fascists.
Hmm, I assume you have some kind of proof that the election observors in Mexico did not see in 2006 concerning Calderon's victory? Since AMLO claimed on election night to have won by "500,000" votes, that means that at a minimum 34% (instead of the 36% officially reported) of Mexicans voted for Calderon. In your studied opinion, living in Mexico, are 34% of Mexicans "fascists"?
Yeah I do: Vicente Fox took credit for operating the sirty war and the fraud against AMLO--and did so publically. It was in all the newspapers and probably those in the US as he said it in Washington DC!
The going price the PAN paid for votes in my village was 100 pesos, though my brother received 200. It was such a problem that the municipio put up big banners saying Don't Sell Your Vote! That doesn't make folks who checked the box for the PAN fascists, no. It makes them cynical and it makes them poor, too. Lots of folks who accepted the 100 pesos here did so because 100 pesos is two days of the minimum wage. The PAN used the rolls of the folks who received money from government aid programs in the agricultural sector to offer folks the 100 pesos.
Election observors here saw a variety of violations--including folks at the ballot boxes being "replaced" by folks in Gordillo's teachers' union, ballot box stuffing, ballots for AMLO being thrown away--and the most common was the lack of congruency between the cover sheets for each ballot box and the actual number of ballots cast for each candidate.
Millions of folks didn't protest the election for no reason. And they didn't camp out for more than 2 months just to pretened they were boy scouts, either.
The case of access to the ballots is at the level of the Interamerica Court, as the PAN has been trying to burn them--just like the PAN and PRI did to those in the 1988 presidential election which was won by Cardenas and when the "system went down".
The election frauds in Mexico are legendary. One of the candidates, Madrazo, has had the nickname "Mapache" for his flagrant frauds. Yep, the same guy who said he "won" the Berl,in Marathon in 2006 but was disqualified as he only ran the first and last parts of the course....
Things are not as simple as you present them.
he is Now a dictator, purhaps when he first was elected his intentions were good but like all humans, the more power they gain, the more they want. If he was not a dictator, he would not seek to change term limits. Term limits are a good thing, keeps govermant improving. We need more term limits on congress, it needs fresh blood.
Your logic is faulty.
Tell the 17 presidents of countries of the European Union that they are dictators.
I am sure they will tell you that you are a crackpot.
You're correct about the need for term limits in this country.
As for Chavez, he still won despite his having changed the term limits so don't blame him. Complain to those voters if you wish.
I guess it would be good to have a dictator as long as Chavez was the dictator!
Well, well, well, so rumors of Hugo and the Bolivarian Revolution's demise are greatly exagerated. Surprise, Surprise! There is work to do in the real world where not everybody is a robotic ideological partisan.
Since crime was exploited by the opposition as an issue of discontent, it would be interesting to see the Bolivarian Revolution seek a more rehabilitative approach to criminality and not just punitive warfare and incarceration.
Hugo has to dste behaved himself like a gentl;eman with the Venezuelan electorate and is realizing by now that he must seek consensus rather than just ideological purity.
As long as Hugo continues to reach out to those in society the revolution will continue even if Hugo does not. Viva Hugo, viva La Revolution Bolivarian!
Poet
Can you imagine if America had Hugo as its president?
Hoa binh
The closest we tried to get was Kucinich and even Ron Paul wasn't too bad. Then there was Mckinney and Nader but since it was hopeless, a lot of us like myself gave up, went against our own hearts and minds, and voted Obama with our noses pinched tight. I don't think Obama will go against Chavez the way Bush/Cheney did but I don't see him giving up Raygun-omics anytime soon. :=(
Si, yo puedo!
In fact, I think those of us here at CD imagine that every day.
!Viva Hugo!
Tyler Bridges this is faint praise at best and dissinformation at worst.
The majority elected the man, so why is the majority of this article so negative?
I'll say what Tyler didn't- Congratulations Hugo! Well done, keep up the good fight.
And YES, YES, socialism IS the road to take.
Sophie Scholl-The Final Days
The fact that Chavez and Evo Morales still hold power in their respective nations is a sure indicator of the ongoing weakening of the American Empire. Three cheers! In the "old days", these two would've been dead and buried by now.
Yeah,but I am sure that the power,elite are working on it!
Mordechai my Man, you are too right!