President Bush has no better friends than the spineless Democratic congressional leadership and the party's leading presidential candidates when it comes to his failing Iraq policy.
Those Democrats seem to have forgotten that the American people want U.S. troops out of Iraq, especially since Bush still cannot give a credible reason for attacking Iraq after nearly five years of war.
Last week at a debate in Hanover, N.H., the leading Democratic presidential candidates sang from the same songbook: Sens. Hillary Clinton of New York, and Barack Obama of Illinois and former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards refused to promise to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq by 2013, at the end of the first term of their hypothetical presidencies. Can you believe it?
When the question was put to Clinton, she reverted to her usual cautious equivocation, saying: "It is very difficult to know what we're going to be inheriting."
Obama dodged, too: "I think it would be irresponsible" to say what he would do as president.
Edwards, on whom hopes were riding to show some independence, replied to the question: "I cannot make that commitment."
They have left the voters little choice with those answers.
Some supporters were outraged at the obfuscation by the Democratic front-runners.
On the other hand, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, and Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., are more definitive in their calls for quick troop withdrawals.
But Biden wants to break up Iraq into three provinces along religious and ethnic lines. In other words, Balkanize Iraq.
To have major Democratic backing to stay the course in Iraq added up to good news for Bush.
Now comes a surprising Clinton fan.
President Bush told Bill Sammon -- Washington Examiner correspondent and author of a new book titled "The Evangelical President" -- that Clinton will beat Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination because she is a "formidable candidate" and better known.
Sammon says Bush revealed that he has been sending messages to Clinton to urge her to "maintain some political wiggle room in your campaign rhetoric about Iraq."
The author said Bush contends that whoever inherits the White House will be faced with a potential vacuum in Iraq and "will begin to understand the need to continue to support the young democracy."
Bush ought to know about campaign rhetoric. Remember how he ridiculed "nation building" in the 2000 presidential campaign? Now he claims he is trying to spread democracy throughout the Middle East.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is another Democratic leader who has empowered Bush's war.
Pelosi removed a provision from the most recent war-funding bill that would have required Bush to seek the permission of Congress before launching any attack on Iran. Her spokesman gave the lame excuse that she didn't like the wording of the provision. More likely, she bowed to political pressure.
Is it any wonder the Democrats are faring lower than the president in a Washington Post ABC approval poll? Bush came in at 33 percent and Congress at 29 percent.
Members of Congress seem to have forgotten their constitutional prerogative to declare war; World War II was the last time Congress formally declared war.
Presidents have found other ways to make end runs around the law, mainly by obtaining congressional authorization "to do whatever is necessary" in a crisis involving use of the military. That's the way we got into the Vietnam and Iraq wars.
So what are the leading Democratic White House hopefuls offering? It seems nothing but more war. So where do the voters go who are sick of the Iraqi debacle?
Helen Thomas is a columnist for Hearst Newspapers. E-mail: helent@hearstdc.com.
Copyright 2007 Hearst Newspapers
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155 Comments so far
Show AllImagine if huge numbers of people voted for Kucinich. The Clinton, Obama, Edwards Machines would be stunned. It would be sweet. Oh well... I also once beleived "all you need is love".
zuzumamu ...you are spot on as Thom Hartmann would say!
Kucinich may be the one who cares enough about our country and the only one who might have a chance at pulling us back from the deep dark hole. With a little help from a few other good guys of course.
More excellent commentary in support of the argument that the US has become very undemocratic. We have one party, ostensibly split but unified in all matters of consequence to the nation, and in direct opposition to the will of the public.
Can anyone say that the will of the majority is represented by our government in its current form?
Vote for Kucinich in the primaries...let's all start there. I was going to vote for Edwards, but he's too locked into "the way things are". I want the Richardson, Kucinich solutions: "Out of Iraq completely, Universal Not For Profit health care; dissolve NAFTA; create a New Deal alternative fuel program to put Americans back to work; and real Fair Trade agreements to help 3rd world countries rather than exploit them~which would also help solve the immigration problem. Shrink the dept of defense back to state militias and national guard; make mercenary armies illegal; end the new nuclear arms race;"Enough Already!! Dennis is our Candidate..we are being told we are in the minority, but polls don't show it. Let's vote for Dennis in the primaries, and see what happens. Go Cindy!! Money will not be your problem~don't think you'll have ANY problem sending Grandma Pelosi back home to Napa...and she coulda been President!
The US government is no longer "of the people, by the people, and for the people". They no longer represent the will of our citizens. And ours was intended to be a representative form of government.
All the tough talk by the Democrats before the 2006 elections have turned into a sniveling little whimper.
Until we can outbribe, and outintimidate AIPAC, our foreign policy will be what is in the best interest of Israel, not the will of the American people. All of the Islamic lobbies have long since been labeled "terrorist organizations", however AIPAC roams the halls of Congress with impunity.
I email Pelosi regularly, and have never gotten a response. I email Liddy Dole, and get letters in response within two weeks. At least she has the gumption to attempt to justify her votes.
Hello Earthlings, this is Coyote from another Galaxy...
It looks as if the Oil industry is about to flame out. The approval of the citizens of bush is 33% and they see congress at 29%...
There has been only one "Independent" Party President, of all the Masonic presidents in our history, all Masons! That was John Quincy Adams and his four years in office. If your "Voting" was effective it would be Illegal!
Ensteins view, "that solutions to problems cannot be found within the context that created them"
Is the "within",the Democrats/Republicans/Independents/Washington DC morality/the "Context"? If so, where do you go from there? Where is out of context? We think it is in the Creative Transformation of cultures. What is that you might ask...Well...How many cultures in the US? Black/Gray/White/Yellow/Red in New York/San Francisco/"In-Between"/The South/Texas/Orange county and etc.
You had better get to work... or dig your own Grave...
VAGreen - Agree with much of what you say.
I look at this only from a tactical perspective, given the conditions at present. I have no love for or loyal to the DEM Party - whatsoever, hidden, upfront, or otherwise.
The Democrat party is thoroughly corrupt/anti-Progressive at its national executive level (the DNC/DCCC.) It's corrupt/anti-progressive at several large-state executive levels, and among its leaders in congress.
But when you look at the proportional numbers involved, you see that only a few thousand corporatists and assorted quislings, craven congresspeerson have hijacked the Party's executive functions, most-effectively (for now) at the national level.
Somewhat like a huge ocean liner, with thousands of people on board, can be hijacked by a dozen pirates who gain control of the pilot's wheel and engine room. And which pirates can then steer the ship in an unwanted directed -- until, in this analogue, one of two things happen:
the passengers organize their huge numbers to overwhelm the few crucially-ensconced pirates and retake control of the ship, or, the passengers get into multiple, disorganized, tiny lifeboats in stormy seas, abandon ship, hoping to stick together, reach land, and build a new ship, etc..
Too rough an analogue? Maybe. But I think it helps to physicall visualize political tactics and their consequences. And maybe if others carry my analogue further, they will show me that the provisional conclusions I am drawing from it, are wrong-headed.
There are 50+ million people who voted Democrat in the last presidential election -- regular progressive citizens across the country -- who, whatever their party affliation, want a progressive national agenda on the major issues facing the country (poll after poll shows this); and who increasingly see that the National Democrat party isn't giving them a progressive agenda because -obviously- the Party's been hijacked at these crucial 'higher' levels.
So the tactical question seems to be: What has more chance of succeding? Millions of progressive Dem activists taking over the DEM Party from a comparitively tiny number of rightwing hijackers? Or, us same progressive activists abandoning the Dem Party entirely, in favor of building, or continuing to build, a cohesive, national Progressive Party (or Green or whatever it would be called...) out of the presently fragmented Left.
To repeat:I have no loyalty to the Dem party at any level. I only have loyalty to a progressive agenda.
No one is 'paying' me to argue this tactical point or any other points I try to make, here.. I've openly denounced again and again, here on CD, and elsewhere, the status quo/Rightist hijackers of the national Dem Party; denounced them as de facto - or outright - fascists, and/or moral cowards who're simply 'enabling' the monstrous neocon agenda.
But I don't comprehend the logic of some people who advocate that all progressives should immediately abandon the entirety of the Big Ship Democrat - right now - without even trying to dislodge its hijackers from the bottom-up; and especially not w/o a some coherent sense of where we all go, when we get in the lifeboats.
Maybe all this self-organizing will emerge, though -- and maybe jumping the Big Ship IS the only way to finally unify a national-level Progressive force. As in the case of the Whig-to-Republican party transition, 150 yrs ago, would I have argued against this 'risk' too? No, I wouldn't have - but I don't see the situation of then and today as as contextually/tactically similar enough, to have the comparison easily solve the problem for me. It is morally similar, yes.
I do ask myself these 'tactical bravery' questions, though, with no clear answer yet --and so I am at least honestly struggling with the wisdom of the 'caution' I myself advocate.
In any case, given what the neocons can and will do, if further empowered by yet-more progressive fragmentation in 2008 and beyond, I don't think it's wrong to pointedly raise (and visualize) these tactical concerns. I sincerely belive that it would be wrong not to!
ONLY! Kucinich and green party Viva El Frente/Verde
coming soon the signal, time to call all these assholes like in Vince Flynn's book, 'Term Limits'
like 1776 . like Thomas Jefferson said
12 Million Hispanics, many millions with Indigenous blood,
soon will come the 12th world the TIME....
hang all in public, all texans especially
impose IMMEADIATE Capital Crimes Sentencing
Viva La Revolucion!
I have noticed that Obama and Clinton and the others are all willing to tell us what they supposedly would do about health care and darned near everything else if they become President. Why aren't they willing to say what they will do about Iraq?
It is interesting that Republican Eisenhower in contrast was not afraid to state that if he was elected he would quickly end the mess in Korea. He campaigned on it and won. Why are the Democratic Party candidates so gutless?
It is so pervasive among the current office holders, yet so illogical, I can't help but start to wonder if the five years of illegal spying by the White House on Americans didn't find useful blackmail on the Democratic Party politicians.
Ayumanbean, Kucinich is indeed a sham. He knows he will win nothing and at the end he'll support a pro-war corporatist Democrat like he did in 2000 or 2004 when he supported Kerry. His ignorant voters will follow him and vote for either Killary or Obomber.
The only way I'd take him seriously is if he left his corrupt party and ran as an Independent. He'd have a better chance to get somewhere anyway. The Democratic Party is rotten to the core as much as the Republicans are, they have an incurable and inoperable cancer, also known as greed for war cash. There's nothing anyone can do.
Maybe there's hope:
Greetings fellow insurgents,
What lies ahead for our dying democracy? Could a truth-to-power political candidate such as Dennis Kucinich ever hope to capture the hearts of our media obsessed, consumerist culture? What kind of scenario might play out in coming months in years that could trigger the revolution that America so badly needs?
This 11-minute "Futurementary" begins with a bleak look at our current unfolding national nightmare, but ends on the promise of a future utopia of peace, community and radical localism. Please take some time out of your busy schedule to watch it, find inspiration, and pass it on to others.--Matt Power, Liberty News TV (www.libertynewstv.com).
Real Media Version (macs and PCs)
http://www.libertynewstv.com/RAW%20CLIPS%20and%20STILLS/OCT2007CLIPS/LNT...
Windows Media Version (PCs)
http://www.libertynewstv.com/RAW%20CLIPS%20and%20STILLS/OCT2007CLIPS/Pax...
If you want a higher resolution copy of the video on DVD that you can show at meetings, rallies or wherever, please send a $5 donation to Liberty News TV, PO Box 10847, Portland, ME 04104 --and we'll send you a DVD.
Just had a thought after I sent that last message: maybe what we need is a Progressive Primary before the official Primaries, wherein all progressive types cast a vote for the various alternatives (Green, Kucinich, Ron Paul etc). We hold an unofficial "progressive primary," and agree to go in that direction and work for that party or candidate...
Though there is a lot of disagreement on this blog, there seems to be an overall agreement on the big picture (anti-corporate, anti-war, anti-MSM, pro-Constitution, etc), just not on what should be done (vote Green, vote Kucinich, don't vote, etc.) to bring about meaningful change.
It would be great if there was some "symbolic center" that we like-minded people could rally around and agree on, and thereby create a voting bloc with some power. By "symbolic center," I suppose I mean a candidate or a party. We just need to agree, we're all gonna vote Green, or we're all gonna vote Kucinich, etc. There's always the fear of the "Nader" factor (though last I heard Gore did win the vote in Florida in 2000), which could lead to a Republican winning. But then we must ask, is Clinton a lesser evil? That may be the case, though she said she might keep troops in Iraq until 2013 and is totally corporate backed, and recently voted to condemn Iran (trigger happy indeed). I'm not coming to any conclusions, but it just seems to me that progressives, en masse, have to commit to a party or a candidate, and somehow for that commitment to be made known in the public sphere, so that it can grow, and so that Democrats brainwashed by the MSM might wake up and vote progressive as well.
tetti_tatti Kucinich is not a sham. He is the real thing. The only one of the Dems who is. I saw them all speak last summer and Kucinich had me jumping up and shouting every few minutes. He also brought me to tears with his vision of what America can and should be. I wish he was a Green! I agree he will not make it past the primary. American politics has a way of filtering OUT some of the best candidates.
I agree with Abbywood that if we don't have free elections we have NOTHING. If our vote is stolen it is not a republic or democracy. It is fundamental that we have a say in our government.
Thank you for your reply, logos.nine.
"I do ask myself these 'tactical bravery' questions, though, with no clear answer yet –and so I am at least honestly struggling with the wisdom of the 'caution' I myself advocate.
In any case, given what the neocons can and will do, if further empowered by yet-more progressive fragmentation in 2008 and beyond, I don't think it's wrong to pointedly raise (and visualize) these tactical concerns. I sincerely belive that it would be wrong not to!"
I agree that these are difficult issues to deal with, and I'm definitely not a fan of the neocons, either! Both the Green Party and Progressive Democrats of America advocate Instant Runoff Voting, which would allow everyone to vote their hopes instead of their fears.
There are 16 states where there is a Democratic Governor and Democratic majorities in the legislature, and 4 more where there is a Republican Governor and a veto-proof Democratic majority in the legislature. We need to encourage them to pass IRV, which they can do without worrying about Republican opposition. In fact, there may be Republican support because they have to worry about the Constitution and Libertarian Parties.
Lobo Gris, and all the rest of you that are ready to actually do something to channel this rage, impatience, and yearning for something better, here are three concrete steps toward establishing a plan and getting a team behind it:
a. Pick 5 regional races where there's a local (statewide or mayor of a big city) race that provides a strong contrast between RepubliDem and Progressive values
b. Make a facility like CommonDreams whose sole function in life is promote, document, facilitate, and encourage grass-roots volunteer action in support of the Progressive candidate in those five races
c. Get that operations hub website staffed with crackerjack political, graphics and editorial people. This is a visual society, and it's a soundbite society. We need to be very good at what counts.
d. Promote the bejeezus out these races, the site, the icons, the graphics, the soundbites, etc. We don't have to have a unified party to capture people's imagination, and to deliver the concept of "what life could be like". We need some victories, and we need some stellar grass-roots promotion.
Everyone out there feels out-of-sorts. No one likes what's happening now. Let's show them an alternative, and give them a way to put in their 2c.
"I wouldn't call you down on this, if there was some kind of coherently oragnized, political party alternative that people could vote for, that you had helped bring about. And when and if there is such an alternative, I'll join you in advocating that progressive votes go there, instead of to the only-slightly-less-corrupt-Democrat Party."
Alternatives to the Republicrats are not built overnight. The Whig Party was replaced by the Republicans, but it took a lot of hard work. Anti-slavery parties ran candidates in four Presidential elections before the birth of the Republican Party: The Liberty Party in 1840 and 1844, and the Free Soil Party in 1848 and 1852. The Republicans lost their first Presidential election in 1856 before Lincoln's victory in 1860, and even then, Lincoln was not on the ballot in Southern states.
In one election cycle after another, progressives keep saying "Now is not the time for a third party", but the longer we wait to build an
alternative to the two-party system, the worse things will get. The time for a new party is NOW, and that party is the Green Party. Progressives need to register Green, volunteer Greens, run as Green candidates, and vote Green.
"Apparently, you and your purity-driven compatriots think you're going to build a national, progressivie party simply by hating, and not voting for, Democrats."
This is not about purity. It's not that the Democrats are going to give me 99% of what I want, and I won't accept anything less than 100%. That's purity. It's about the direction that both parties have been leading the country in. Yes, the Democrats may be leading us the wrong way more slowly than the Republicans, but voting for the lesser evil sends them the message that they have a mandate to keep going the wrong way. The Democratic Party couldn't care less if you hold your nose as long as they have your vote.
"Can't you distinguish any degree of moral dimesnion between a Guilliani and a John Edwards or Dennis Kucinich?"
Unfortunately, Dennis Kucinich is not going to be the Democratic nominee.
"Since it's obvious that neither you or COMarc are that politically stupid (if real progressives), I like others on this site are now beginning to seriously consider that you and your auto-Demo-hating compatriots are either very-subtle neocon agent provateurs, posting on this site for purposes of demoralization, or else psychological misfits whose ego-embittered political solipcisms have nothing useful to offer the real world that the rest of us humans live in."
I find the constant groundless speculation about the mental state of progressives who don't support the Democrats to be tiresome. James Dobson and other Christian Right leaders recently threatened to support a conservative third party candidate if Giuliani is the Republican nominee. Do you think that he is a secret agent for Howard Dean?
The Christian Right has something valuable to teach progressives. There ARE limits to compromise, and those limits are NOT simply "At least they're not as bad as the other party". Progressives need to say that some issues are not negotiable, or else we will accept anything from the Democrats as long as the Republicans are worse. The logical end point of perpetual lesser evilism is voting for a kinder, gentler fascist party in the last election that we ever have.
"So where do the voters go who are sick of the Iraqi debacle?"
This voter went to Vietnam and plans to stay there: http://www.steadyfootsteps.org/2007/10/a_view_from_outside_the_box.html
Notice to Kucinich,
Your stand on the issues is getting through; please continue to speak to the American Public on stem cell research. The same goes for Edwards and Richardson and Obama. Clinton is not my choice for president. Sorry, but you seem trigger happy.
paper write-in votes were not even counted in the last two elections.i remember hearing that the overseas votes,including the military votes from iraq and afganistan,were not counted and kerry gave in to bush,knowing of this.any vote for any republican,is a vote for the war machine....vote for a wimpass democrat or just go green or third party,anything other than the party that bush built,voting republican is kinda like condoning everything that has gone on in the last 8 years...i think i heard mitt romney say something like.. his five sons were not in the military,because they are serving their country by helping with his campaign ?that my friends, is the infamous arrogance of a republican........
OuterBeltway October 6th, 2007 10:43 am
"Lobo Gris:
Great observation. How do we capitalize? Do we mount a big rebellion right now, and force the Dems left?"
That is what I am for doing.
"The internet-enabled organization can move a whole society on a dime, and that really screws up the best-laid plans. We could do something like that with a little planning and some elbow grease."
I agree
"But to use the Internet this way requires planning and strong execution skills, and a modest amount of resources. The challenge for Progressives is to get good at agreeing on a plan, and good at perseverance."
I agree again
"What are the next 3 concrete steps we can take to pick a target, build a team, and get something going?"
That I need to think about some. Suggestions? Ideas?
Lobo Gris
Vote? My ass. Stop "feeding the beast" by not using credit and spending your money only with progressive companies? A utopian dream. National 3rd parties? Crushed by the Big Two before they get a foothold.
The only answer is pitchforks & torches. Drag the bastards by their feet from their hidey holes and give them what they richly deserve, a la Benito Mussolini. Then start over.
Few Americans have the stomach for it today. Most are content to "lick the hand which feeds them" as Samuel Adams once said.
If my comments appear to be duplicates of what I have already said, So be it! It bears repeating over and over again until enough people act upon it!
I wish Helen Thomas had given Dennis Kucinich more ink. PBS and Judy Woodruff did a wonderful job in the interview they aired with Dennis. I am coming to the conclusion that our nation (and the world, for that matter) only have hope with the kind of leadership, intelligence and compassion that Dennis Kucinich brings to the body politic, whether he remains with the Democratic party or breaks away with other Progressive thinkers an activists and "greens" to bring on real change and hope for us. In many ways, helen Thomas is right, and this has been picked up in many of the comments in reaction to her article: most of the "leading" Democrats are little different than the Republican neo-cons and their corporatizer sponsors, and their non-action has scarcely done anything other than promise MOS.
Kucinich is a sham designed to keep the left in the Democratic Party. Hillary and her bosses at Blackwater have the lock on this nomination, Kucinich will never win anything, stop dreaming.
If she wins, and I hope she doesn't, it'll be as bad or worse than a White House with Giuliani or Thompson. Eight more years of illegal war profiteering, destruction of the middle class and more humiliation of the poor, the way only a Clinton can envision.
Bush screwed up so badly that only the Democrats could save him--and they did
I'm sure Kucinich, a Democrat, will win this time. Look at all the energy in this room! With everyone behind him, how can he lose? Oh Dennis, you Democrat, show us the way! Representative Kucinich, your Democratic speeches about getting out of Iraq and health care for all so inspire me! Your leadership, as a Democrat, encourages me to work within the party, as you do, to help win and turn things around. Thank you, Mr. Kucinich, for your brave example to all of us who want to be as perfect a Democrat as you.
We can admit our mistakes and take appropriate actions to ameliorate the effects of them or live with the shame and moral impotence, our actions have inclined us toward, for generations.
America is the light of hope for the world; her love, generosity and honesty has left her leaders, but not her citizens. With courage and determination we can win back the admiration of the world.
We can spurn the actions of our leaders or, by coddling them, make their actions our own.
If Americans do nothing now, they accept the shame their leaders have offered them. America's might, now, will come from doing what is right.
The prospect of losing power and all the cash from war contracts is the only thing that will get Nancy Pelosi's attention. The woman is a war profiteer in the same mold as Bush and Cheney. The Democratic Party historically has been a sham and the only way out of this is to defy them as Cindy Sheehan is doing.
This is yet another spineless Democrats article by Helen Thomas. One more time: Democrats are NOT spineless, instead they have a lot of balls to act as criminally as they have been while pretending to be an alternative to Republicans. They're not an alternative to anything, they never have been. Go learn history, read Vidal or Chomsky.
With the sole exception of Kucinich, I find it impossible to support any of the Democratic candidates with their soft-shell waffling on getting out of Iraq. The decision to end our occupation must be made. Our bumbling state department will need to eat humble pie and ask other nations, the UN, regional leaders, etc. to broker a peace that will allow an orderly exit. The US will need to pay reparations for this erroneous act of aggression. In addition, to expunge some portion of our collective guilt, responsible members (is that everyone?) in the bush administration should be held accountable and be tried as war criminals. I am sure that if real investigations were held, myriad of constitutional and legal violations committed by and for our executive branch will be uncovered. Do we, as a nation, have the courage to look in the mirror?
Not voting IS voting; it's voting by proxy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting
It's choosing to let others vote for you.
Whoever gets elected, is your choice; whatever they do, is your choice.
Vangelaras,
The Green Party itself has some in-fighting, etc. but I believe we can build mechanisms to mitigate even more broadly.
I've suggested a mechanism in which progressives of many stripes (progressive/idealistic Dems, Greens, Libertarians, Socialists, progressive populists, etc.) should vote, Range Vote style, on issues rather than on candidates. We should lay out perhaps 50-100 issues (out of Iraq, single-payer health care, etc.) and rank them. Those issues which get something like a 90% buy-in are the issues that the umbrella organization's candidate will campaign on. Those which get only like a 75% buy-in will be solved in caucus/committee once elected. Those with less than 75% buy-in are to be considered divisive, and shelved until the top are brought into law, policy, etc. We need a simple mechanism like this which forces us to focus on commonalities, while shelving the divisive.
Phil Ochs was right about the phoney liberals. NEVER trust them.
We The People have the power. But it's not in the "vote" anymore, if it ever was. It is in the power to say NO to the political prostitutes whatever party they claim. Just think: what if they gave an "election" and nobody came? We just don't get it in The Empire, do we? Other countries stage general strikes, massive protests and just Shut it Down. But no, we in The Empire continue to believe what we are told: that this is a "democracy" that our "vote" really counts, that we "free." True freedom means that The People stop the criminal political/corporate madness. Perhaps the first step is to Not Vote this next round. Think about it. Just Imagine.
Vangelaras:
I can't speak for the Greens, as I'm not a member, and am not well acquainted with their politics (yet - I will attend to this).
However, more broadly you raise a great question. Permit me to re-phrase it according to my world-view. I see it as "can we do political deal-making? Can we do coalition-building?"
As I think of it, this is really what's at the root of modern politics - the art of dealmaking. It's what made Lyndon Johnson so formidably effective while he was in Congress.
Your follow-on question, about "can we identify a core set of goals that are strong enough to build a coalition around?" is crucial. You went on to name a few contenders, any one of which would suit fine. I could add one: solar power on every home in the U.S.A.
Let's zero in on this "umbrella org" you mentioned. What would the "sponsoring" entity be? How do you handle the politics of leadership? How do you select the issues, and then hammer out the plan? How do you compete for attention with all the rest of the stuff people have to get done in a day? I'm not saying it can't be done, but there are (pardon the marketing terms) positioning, branding, and value proposition issues here that need to get worked out, and done well if the idea is to have a chance of success.
Does that stimulate any insights, objections or suggestions?
OuterBeltway and Paul Bramscher
I talk about a People's Movement which can be an umbrella for all the leftist,progressive,socialist parties, organizations, social and labor movements,who can unite their voices and energies in order to achieve a set of very important political objectives, such as peace, disarmament, economic justice, sustainable development,free universal health, free public education, etc.,etc.It seems to me that no matter what is the name of each one's organization, we should not have any problem joining our forces for such very worthy objectives. Objectives desired by the majority of the American population and opposed (in word or on deed)by the capitalist establishment and their "two" party stooges. Objectively we are the majority, but in the present phase we can become the effective political majority only under the umbrella of a People's Movement.
I must clarify that the parties and organizations of the People's Movement retain their formal and substantive identity. They enter the People's Movement in order to carry out united action for jointly agreed goals and score very important electoral victories that will mark the beginning of the end of the scourge of imperial capitalism.
Would the Green party join forces with others in order to achieve common important objectives?
Your thoughts will be highly appreciated
Vangelaras
PLEASE, you people who say you're going to pass on voting in 2008, don't do it. If necessary, write in a candidate you can support, don't just drop off the radar.
I have started making new assumptions about the Democrats. I now assume that the Democrats DO agree with Bush about invading Iraq, staying in Iraq, and possibly invading Iran, and establishing American hegemony in the Middle East. I believe that Democrats DO subscribe to supply side economics, the privatization of almost all of society, tax breaks for the wealthy, increasing the federal debt to starve government, private health insurance, social security, and medicare. I believe that the Democrats DO support the usurption of Government by the Executive Branch of the government, wiretapping and spying on American citizens without warrants, incarceration without due process or habeaus corpus, torture, rendition, and the suppression of free speech and opinion.
When I begin to work from these assumptions, I no longer view the Democrats behavior as spineless but as the acts of willing collaborators with Bush. I have decided, for now, to stop campaigning for any of the three leaders, supporting the Democratic party financially, and working for Democratic victories in my State as I have done in the past. I do not know where I should turn for representation but I do know that for now the Democrats do not offer any kind of credible alternative to the authoritarian police state that is being created by the Party in charge now.
Thank you Helen Thomas!!!
Yes, where do you go...simple Kucinch. It is time to wake up, forget the media, think for ourselves. Be smart and vote for Kucinch.
I will be caucusing for Kucinch here in Nev. If he does not win good bye Dems.
Helen Thomas asks:
>>>
"So where do the voters go who are sick of the Iraqi debacle?"
>>>
That's easy...they can (and should!) go to a candidate who opposed the Iraq War from the git-go...one who continues to oppose it and commits to starting to bring the troops home...NOW!
In Other Words: DENNIS KUCINICH
Friends, why don't we persuade HELEN THOMAS to run for president?!!
What we need to do is: 1) Support the Green Party, by volunteering, publicizing, and donating; 2) Support electoral reform. If we had Instant Runoff Voting and proportional representation - the latter is standard in most of the world, even in Iraq - there would no such thing as "spoiling" or "wasting your vote." If you don't know what I'm talking about, please do yourself a favor and check out fairvote.org...
Hey, folks, in case any of you get the opportunity to speak/debate any neocons, etc, here's a point they should think about. One reason the Dims may be refusing to confront all the illegal spying tools GWB et al have put in place, plus the signing statements-the whole ball of wax, actually, is because they are frothing at the mouth to take over the presidency, so THEY can be the ones to control us!
Ask these repugs how they would like to see Hillary Clinton with Bush's power?
I've done this, and it definitely has an impact on their attitudes. If enough repugs get worried about a Dim at the helm with Bushpower, maybe we can get some of these Orwellian laws (and their illegal NON laws) eliminated before it's too late.
headline at u.s. politics today,"clinton campaign strategist to defend,blackwater"..shameful,shameful...and what happened to the "national'healthcare hilliary pushed for as a first lady ?i used to like her,then.we can bankroll genocide,but not healthcare.i used to write alot of letters to nancy pelosi,but found out what a phony she is when i started hearing my letters(verbatim) woodenly recited by her,as if they were her own.i was especially proud of my letter entitled"the emperor has no clothes"nancy took impeachment off the table,leaving the american people with their backs against a wall and NO WAY OUT !!so she and the others can continue to spend and steal the wealth and resources of the american people !!she is a masonic mole and hilliary has also been body-snatched.do you want to hear another fun fact ?the largest growing new 'religion?'in china is;FREEMASONRYwhich believe it or not,dear readers,is at the crux of all our u.s. problems(ask jack kennedy)and all c.i.a. policy and they invented the behemothblue line. i was personal secretary,chief speech writer and demonstration organizer for dr.benjamin spock in his bid for presidency....with the growing knowledge of(dr.spock's) his genuine and compassionate humanity..we all grew to feel he was too good a human,for the likes of the dirty-white house.
Here are thoughts for a feasible liberating strategy:
1) Support Cindy Sheehan to win the election against Nancy Pelosi in California. This will be a big victory to have Cindy's courageous independent truly progressive voice in the Congress. In the process of her campaign Cindy will formulate and run on programs appealing to the masses of the working people and the poor and supported by progressive organizations.
2)In all the states and municipalities let progressive political organizations and social movements take initiative and form independent People's Movements with programs on the key issues(peace,impeachment, health care etc. )parallel to Cindy's positions. The key objective will be to elect in 2008 at all state and municipal levels tested, honest local independent progressive activists, other than RebuliCratic hacks.
3) With organizational infrastructure and local and state victories in place and Cindy Sheehan in the US congress, the local People's Movements will be able to organize their interconnections, establish their national entity and proceed to presidential and congressional victories in
in 2012.
The natural choice for President by the People's Movement will be Cindy Sheehan, whose intelligence, sensitivities and humane vision of a peaceful future with justice, cooperation and solidarity among the nations of the world are needed virtues that cannot be found among the Dr. Strangeloves and jokers, presidential candidates, of the "two" party system.
Any thoughts about better strategies? I am open for serious discussion aiming at conclusions with practical value. Thank You
Vangelaras
Vangelaras and Paul Bramscher:
Excellent posts, both of them. I agree with almost everything both of you said, e.g.:
* Support Cindy Sheehan
* Use Green party apparatus
* Go bottom-up. Get some local momentum, and work up to the big stuff as conditions permit
* Keep sounding off (whining) to set the record straight
* Get people to contribute their time, their opinions and enthusiasm, or any other resource they happen to have. Last resort, send money
OK. Makes sense. For me, that would translate to:
a. Send Sheehan a check. I don't live anywhere near her district, so time contributions probably won't help her. Cindy, if you're reading this, please weigh in and direct people's efforts as best meet your needs
b. Join my local green party. Gotta be one around here somewhere
c. Get out and do grass-roots work for the Green party, and get a local candidate elected
d. Continue posting and reading at CD
e. Encourage others to take this short, simple list, and expand on it, argue about it, re-prioritize it, and then implement it for themselves
OuterBeltway,
* IMHO, the last thing a progressive movemement needs is to solicit for money. Money is the problem, by its very nature it is laid out inequitably as a barrier to change for the underrepresented, a vehicle with greased wheels for the overrepresented.
A progressive movement should proselytize widely, solicit volunteer time and volunteer resources. Perhaps anything *except* money. There's no shortage of special interest groups that want your money, but so few that want your time or input. One would almost be led to conclude that there's a capitalizing-on-dissent class of opportunists out there.
* In terms of organizing a political/electoral response, there's the Green Party apparatus ready and waiting.
* Whining is underrated. Prior to the proliferation of the internet -- just 15 years ago or so -- the great majority of printed material had to pass through the sieve of the publishing or MSM industries. Today we have an OBLIGATION to whine, voice our opinions, give people something to read other than Faux News, show that history needn't be written solely by the wealthy for the wealthy, that news and commentary can be the domain of the commoners as well. By itself, clearly, it's insufficient. Whining sets the written record straight -- demonstrates that we are not all in lock-step agreement with the MSM propaganda machine.
Imagine if the blogosphere was composed of 95% ordinary people talking and only 5% Faux News/MSM propaganda. We'd drown them out, into irrelevance.
Lobo Gris:
Great observation. How do we capitalize? Do we mount a big rebellion right now, and force the Dems left? I'm not sure that everyone realizes how mortally petrified the Dems are of tools like MoveOn. That's one of the reasons Hilary condemned the Petraus/Betrayus ad. The internet-enabled organization can move a whole society on a dime, and that really screws up the best-laid plans. We could do something like that with a little planning and some elbow grease.
But to use the Internet this way requires planning and strong execution skills, and a modest amount of resources. The challenge for Progressives is to get good at agreeing on a plan, and good at perseverance.
Let's make some commotion, CD! Focus your outraged genius on something, and demonstrate to yourselves the dimensions of your own power. Pick a target and hit it with all ya got!
What are the next 3 concrete steps we can take to pick a target, build a team, and get something going?
Two horns on the one goat. Wake up and smell the coffee. The Beast now owns you and dictates your life. Welcome to the US of I. Get rid of the influence of the war criminal Kissinger and his Biblical ilk and maybe we will have sanity if not a semblance of peace. Peace and strength to all you Americans who are decent and fair living people. Those who have taken over your lives make the Mafia look like family
AMDG
OuterBeltway October 6th, 2007 9:38 am
One of the main evangelical preachers yesterday vowed major defections to a third party candidate if Giuliani or another pro-choice Republican gets the Republican nomination. Only time will tell how effective the threat is, but I do find it interesting that there is dissention in both the Democratic and Republican camps over the annointed candidates this coming election cycle.
Lobo Gris
Dithering .vs. effectiveness. Which one wins?
Effective tools:
* Web fundraising
* Local races, e.g. Cindy Sheehan, Jim Webb, Russ Feingold
* Mobs at the convention. Remember Chicago?
* Using the web, like CD, to debate strategy, and then actually pick one, and then implement
Dithering tools:
* Go to a blog, bitch and whine, and then do nothing
* Wring your hands and shriek: "the sky is falling!"
There are two reasons that progressives don't have much political power:
* Too individualistic to join anything, can't build a powerful team
* Impatient. If it can't be done in 5 mins of impassioned whining, then forget it
If you want to succeed, learn how to organize, focus, play on a team.
Otherwise all your great ideas will never come to pass.
=======
Separately: CD has no mechanism in place to select a strategy, and build teams. CD, are you open to discussion on this topic?
CD readers: would you make a special ear-marked contribution to cover the development costs for some new team-building tools?
SEQUOIABISON October 6th, 2007 8:27 am
Nader didn't lose the election for Democrats in 2000, shenanigans in Florida and a refusal to order a recount by the Supreme Court did.
As for completing the dismantling of social progress, the Democrats have been in charge of Congress since 2006 and what have they done?
Have they closed Guantanamo or even made an effort to? No.
Have they stopped the spying on American citizens by the NSA or even attempted to? No.
Have they repealed the Patriot act or even attempted to? No, in fact they even voted to further expand it before they left for their August recess.
Have they gotten us out of Iraq, or even attempted to? No, in fact they have voted for every penny that Bush has asked for, money that could have been spent on social programs.
Have they taken Bush on about his signing statements which negates whatever they do pass? No.
Have they impeached Bush or even attempted to which could have reversed or been the beginning of reversing the damage that he has done? No, in fact they took impeachment "off the table"
The only real solution is to vote third party in large numbers. Only when the two major parties start to lose elections due to defections will they change and begin to pay attention to the voters. As long as they continue to be rewarded by being returned to public office by those who succumb to the lesser of two evils ploy, they have no impetus to change.
Lobo Gris
Helen Thomas you are the best.
The problem is you were spoiled in your early years of covering politics by our young intellectual president JFK. Ya think W and the cowardly dems suffer by comparison?
Hillary is definitely a problem. She is obviously too beholden to AIPAC and her very rich Jewish contributors who want the USA to wage war against Iran giving them free rein to conquer more territory in the middle east.
As soon as she saw that she was leading in the polls she was able to shift her position of placating the anti war democrats, who vote in the primaries and move back to the right of center.
However, my fellow liberals let us not be fooled again by people like Nader and company that there is not a dimes worth of difference between the two parties.
I think we can all attest to the fact that a Gore presidency would have been a lot better than what we got.
Abandoning the dems for a non-electable third party candidate at this point will only be a repeat performance of what happened in 2000, only this time they will complete the dismantling of our social progress and turn this country into a perpetual war machine.
I will support Kucinich in the primaries and whoever gets the democratic nomination in the general.
It will be hard to pull the lever for Hillary but the thought of a Giuliani presidency will make it a little easier.
The only real solution is to vote third party in large numbers. Only when the two major parties start to lose elections due to defections will they change and begin to pay attention to the voters. As long as they continue to be rewarded by being returned to public office by those who succumb to the lesser of two evils ploy, they have no impetus to change.
Lobo Gris
winnetou, it's a damn site better option than what is going on now. the system needs a major shakeup. your idea has merit. what we have presently, is NO choice. they are all bought and paid for. their major interest is in protecting their own political asses. those that do have the balls to speak out, have no chance, thanks to the corporate msm, and aipac. no money... no chance. too bad, but your idea, i like it, but it would never get out of the shute. were between a rock and a hard place with our options.
I actually think there should be no elections in 2008.
There should be a transitional government supervised by the United Nations to keep the fighting parties behave in a civilized manner, while the groundwork is being laid for FREE and FAIR elections for a MULTIPARTY election in 2010 or 2012. The transitional government will have a mandate to fix the dysfunctional electoral system and boosting alternative media to stimulate competition with the dysfunctional corporate media to create a real MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS for the upcoming election. In the meantime a TRUTH and RECONCILIATION commission should be established where former officials will be granted AMNESTY when they reveal as many of the secrets of the Bush regime as possible and the findings of the commission should get lots of MEDIA COVERAGE all over the world. The commission will investigate in a serious manner the stolen elections in 2000 and 2004, the 9-11 disaster, corporate fraud associated with the White House and Congress, the Iraq war and various associated crimes against humanity.
The new government elected by the people, not the corporations, will have a mandate to rewrite the constitution to close the LOOPHOLES that Republicans and other tin-pot dictators-to-be use to subvert democracy, so as to INSTITUTIONALIZE a one-man one-vote system once and for all. They will have a mandate to TRANSFORM the Supreme Court and to TRANSFORM the Department of Defense. It will also have a mandate to FOLLOW UP on the findings of the TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION to penalize the people that have been found guilty of war crimes.
I just don't know whether this will be a popular idea with Americans.
Am I a dreamer ? Well, it has happened, with some variations, in several other countries. It is more or less a standard solution for a country where things have gone terribly wrong and people want to get back on track.
If third parties get 10 to 15% of the vote it will have an impact. Voters who want serious change should vote third parties.
Look, if the Democratic presidential candidates basically want the same thing Bush is doing, then why bother to go through an election? Just let Bush stay, and stay, and stay the course. How do you spell DAH…?
Here's how presidential candidate frontrunners responded to the question as to whether they would withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq by 2013 .My annotation follows:
Clinton: "It is very difficult to know what we're going to be inheriting."
The same sheeple who vote for you, that's for sure.
Obama: "I think it would be irresponsible"
Yes, of course, considering your responsibility to your corporate donors.
Edwards: "I cannot make that commitment."
Can you then make me a blind date, I mean really blind 'cause I'm really terrible to look at?
Pelosi, just move aside. You and your old guard are has-beens. You either get with the program, or move aside. We are so sick of your equivocation and pandering, you must either stand up and be a person or get out and make room for others who will act. Get over your frickin self.
The problem we face, is that we are always given bad choices to "we the people" at election time.
Bush/Kerry, 2 skull and bones members. Give Americans a choice.
We need to find representatives that CHANGE the status quo, from what has been controlled, for too long.
The puppetmasters behind the curtain have dangled "spokesmen" for us to choose from.
America needs to not let us get "divided and conquered" by the puppetmasters.
Vote for someone who will meet OUR needs.
My vote is going to go to Kucinich. Write ins has been my vote for quite a few years.
Wake up and choose who will help YOU and not the biggies who contribute to both sides so they will get what they want no matter who wins.
Don't vote for the lesser of 2 evils.
Vote for someone that represents you, your family, friends, and "we the people."
Make your vote count.
Vote for the representative who looks after you and not corporations.
Okay, maybe they missed that one. But they didn't miss the fact that the fuss Maliki is making over Blackwater is intended to interfere with our diplomatic efforts with the Sunnis, etc. And they didn't miss the fact that the duly elected government of Iraq has purchased $100 million in weapons from China for the police force that we say has nothing but bad cops. And they can't have missed the fact that the Maliki government, that they helped to put in power in Iraq, is allied with al Sadr and Iran. So they can't have missed the fact that Iraq is just keeping us around until Maliki, al Sadr and Iran can build a strong enough force to dominate Iraq.
They can't have missed this could they, General Petraeus? You'd make sure the Congress and the American people all knew, wouldn't you?
urthsong,
The fact that the Dems need to be "pressured" is the problem, not the solution. This country has no more need of dysfunctional, martyr/protest politics. Anyone, or any mechanism, which needs pressure in order to do the right thing is an impediment, not a vehicle for change.
Remember, they had an ideological tent large enough to hold Reagan and the Dixiecrats among their ranks, brought us to Vietnam, nominated a hawk in '68, became a part of the MIC, cowered under Reagan/Bush, handed their ass on a platter to King George II, picked Liebermann for us in '00. If they're the best hope we've got, I'd say forget it.
I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs....no, the puppet on the left is more to my liking....WAIT!! THERES ONE GUY HOLDING UP BOTH PUPPETS!!!!!!
-Bill Hicks
Good question, they go to Washington lets see ten million or twenty million arrive.
A la S.Am.
Bring on the revolution Helen!
With the Voting computers rigged again as they surely will be, the ONLY WAY to get rid of the Republican Party control is an overwhelming vote for Democrats. The Congressional Progressive Caucus has 72 members. It hasn't been that long ago that they had 13 members. Campaign for Democratic progressives in the primaries. Pressure Democratic candidates on progressive issues. Register Democrat and vote in the primary. Pressure the Democratic Party candidates on progressive issues some more. Vote for Democrats. Then we get to pressure the h--l out of them some more.
While General Petraeus is fighting both sides of the Civil War that Bush and the GOP created in Iraq through their policy of Baathification, the generals (excluding General Petraeus who said he didn't grasp the big picture) are saying that we're losing the war in Afghanistan, which means we're losing the war with al Qaeda (The Democratic candidates are telling us about this, aren't they? They're not trying to get elected dishonestly, are they? They know we're sick of the lying and deception, don't they?).
Unfortunately, the corporate campaign money that makes up 95% of all contributions, decides who wins. The oligarchy fixes the election and no matter who we support, their candidates get "elected". Ever wonder why none of their big money candidates mention public campaign financing, IRV, same day registration and other ways of democratizing elections? If We the People want to field our own candidate, we have to decide on a candidate and throw our economic support behind him or her. It seems Kucinich is the popular favorite here, so let's each send him $100 and forget about the rest.
Whew!! Takes a while to plow thru all this discussion, which is mostly good information, but...my appreciation and respect for Helen Thomas is even higher than before.
Watched the crowd of journalists at the recent briefing where Helen again stood out way ahead of the crowd in her persistance, although she got no real response. She was not shy about showing her disgust, while most reporters tried to be very PC. It's true that we senior citizens have many perks, including the best one...we've lived long enough to know it's not only okay but essential to speak up and have our voice heard.
I was also so pleased to see the PBS interview with Dennis Kucinich, especially since the interviewer was so willing to give Dennis all the time he needed to explain his positions. He's the best there is...not only for 2008, but for as long as he and Elizabeth are able to tolerate the political nightmare we're now living through.
HEROES....HELEN THOMAS DENNIS AND ELIZABETH KUCINICH!
Cat October 5th, thanks for the different perspective-one we're probably all at least somewhat familiar with.
For most of us, it is effectively impossible to make a life without borrowing, at least on that first house or property. Myself, I borrowed $8000, built my own place, with a handsaw, no less, as $8000 didn't buy land with any utilities. Paid that off in a few years, and have built several houses since, all with cash.
I have long advocated "paying as you go", WHEN POSSIBLE. But it's hard for those of us without the skills/strength, etc to build our own homes. If one tries to "save up" for a house, instead of going into debt, the housing prices seem to rise faster than our savings account! Still, tho, you've got the right idea.
"Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss"
No one said it any better.
For those who won't vote for either major party, please vote for a Green or write in someone. It is important to show displeasure with the choices.
Not voting works for the two major parties even better than voting for the lessor of two evils. They can say they got more than 50 % of the vote and have a mandate.
I believe that we are all just spinning our little rat wheels...there are no sides. The God of Cash Credit and Interest runs the world. They play and pacify us with a side show of geeks, twisted mirrors and cheap tricks. All this. designed to keep our minds stupefied, confused, helpless and finally impotent and pacified.
Vote? The game is fixed. Miss liberty is being gang raped right before our eyes, as Uncle Sam masturbates, our values have been deformed to fit the world market objective. Slaves vs masters and we bobble our heads about, which master will abuse us less ?
The only vote any of us has is our willingness to keep playing the game....What if people stopped using credit cards, and banks? What if we made any purchase not by how much we can get for how little but what that purchase supports.
Money is an illusion. It was designed to make transactions less cumbersome and protect from theft. A dollar was once backed by precious metal that was given aesthetic value as an exchange for labor. Money is only a symbol of labor exchange...when one makes symbol from symbol as in interest one creates imbalance. When one makes symbol from symbol by speculation on the future one gambles. Gambling is forbidden by most religions but this has been ignored.
When one uses credit one sells their future. They not only gamble the future they pay for the privilege of buying time...Time is not a product. Time belongs to the infinite, whatever deity you would like to attribute that to. The only payment for time is joy.
The cure to rape, for it is us that are being raped! Is to live without these leaders who squander our lives for their perversions. You and I and the Iraqis, Jews, Christians, Pagans, Buddhists, are all nothing but disposable napkins to wipe the lust from their gluttonous mouths. We have been set by division in a pit to kill and maim each other, all part of the grand entertainment for those who sit in the box seats.
By their acts they shall be known! We need not fight them. Through courage, simplicity, imagination, and respect for ourselves as others, we can starve them. STOP FEEDING THE MONSTER. I would suggest as vital, reading the "Art of WAR" War is not so much won by violent acts but by strategic moves....We are being fooled with smoke and mirrors while they steal our world.
The amazing thing is that with the money and energy that has been spent to create such ugliness these same creatures could have built paradise. Their spirits are hollow. Their souls are dead.
Think on what I have said.....Do not look to a leader. Do not look for a group to join. Both make clear targets. Instead think what you can do with your vote. Your only vote! Money....It is what the parasite feeds on. Every day you vote. Every exchange is a vote. A siege against the vermin that infect our world. They do not know themselves as this, they are blinded by arrogance and commit TREASON against freedom and against life. Pity them and withdraw.
For the good of all Cat
Rebel Farmer, those are excellent comments, but i'd like to clarify one thing. You said,
"If you question the honesty of how your votes will be counted, register for Absentee Ballots for ALL elections! It's a little like forcing them to let you vote by mail. Paper ballot and all."
You probably know this, but it's not clear-I (we?) are worried if my (our?) vote will be counted. i'm worried about the way the vote is fixed--the final alleged count.
One other issue. I'm from a vote by mail state, or should I say THE vote by mail state, as I'm unaware of any besides Orygun. This system is just as risky as any other, as the votes are counted electronically. also, there are many, many other ways that the votes can be manipulated. Trust me! I was the Democratic election night "observer" of the process, and it ain't pretty :-(
thanks for hte heads up about Canada. My hon and I have been considering Canada for emigration, as we're not only sick of paying taxes to fund the "war", but also getting a bit worried about the (fascist) state of affairs here in the US of A. Freaky.
Abbywood, if you're curious about Bush's conscience, you might want to look at wikipedia's article on Skull and Bones, "once known as The Brotherhood of Death" Makes me wonder about some other boners, er "bonesmen", e.g. John Kerry.
Free Quark, you say,
"Since third parties and independents aren't viable at the national level..."
You're right. They are not viable because people (with due respect, people such as you) won't vote for them because they are "not viable". Talk about a self fulfilling prophesy!
abbywood says,
"Anyhow, she mentioned that at the last minute some "savior" will come in to "save" the Republican Party. Who better than…..gasp….Dick Cheney? As Molly Ivins would say, "Darth"."
Don't forget that Bushbaby has already instigate a method to STAY in office after his term would normally be over. I hope i'm wrong, but watch out for a new, improved, Pearl Harbour.
Logos.nine, i understand your angst. name calling won't help. And how many more same ol' same ol' are you willing to put up with before realizing that MAYBE. Maybe, maybe, we need a sea change. I'm hip to "the perfect is the enemy of the good". But, in this case, it's more like "The perfect is the enemy of the lesser of two evils". I'm not voting for the evil ones again. at least, certainly not in the primary. and i'd vote for Nader again in a hot second, although I was shamed into voting for What's his Boner, aka Kerry last time.
I'm not saying you are wrong. Nor am I "right". Just saying that we have what appears to be a lose/lose situation.
"No matter that you'll, thereby, de facto, be voting for Republicans in 2008"
logos.nine,
I found your rant interesting until I read the quoted line.
Let me lead you down an equally simplistic and destructive path: By supporting either major party, you are de facto supporting the corporate structure that invites fascism, as we are now seeing it.
I suspect you of being a fascist plant, and hereby banish you to the dark regions of my fevered imagination.
But...cheer up Bunky...your cohorts in the DNC will once again entrap this country in a Faustian choice, and once again, most of us will support the Dem candidate. Thanks.
P.S. Due to a dire lack of courage, neither the Perfect nor the Good exist. Thanks again for your help.
To hell with the vacuum in Iraq; it's the vacuum in Bush's brain that's the problem.
Keith Campbell
Denver
logos.nine,
I carefully read Edwards' answers on environmental issues, his scorecard from the League of Conservation Voters (http://presidentialprofiles2008.org/Edwards/tab1.html).
His score is worse than Hillary's. And I don't like Hillary -- the presidency was never meant to be a father-son, husband-wife, king-prince or otherwise "inherited" office regardless of anyone's merits.
It also hinges on how one defines "progressive". IMHO, anyone who's made peace with globalized capitalism cannot ultimately be called progressive. W