Becoming What We Seek to Destroy
We are morally no different from the psychopaths within the Taliban, who Afghans remember we empowered, funded and armed during the 10-year war with the Soviet Union. Acid thrown a girl's face or beheadings? Death delivered from the air or fields of shiny cluster bombs? This is the language of war. It is what we speak. It is what those we fight speak.
Afghan survivors carted some two dozen corpses from their villages to the provincial capital in trucks this week to publicly denounce the carnage. Some 2,000 angry Afghans in the streets of the capital chanted "Death to America!" But the grief, fear and finally rage of the bereaved do not touch those who use high-minded virtues to justify slaughter. The death of innocents, they assure us, is the tragic cost of war. It is regrettable, but it happens. It is the price that must be paid. And so, guided by a president who once again has no experience of war and defers to the bull-necked generals and militarists whose careers, power and profits depend on expanded war, we are transformed into monsters.
There will soon be 21,000 additional U.S. soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan in time for the expected surge in summer fighting. There will be more clashes, more airstrikes, more deaths and more despair and anger from those forced to bury their parents, sisters, brothers and children. The grim report of the killings in the airstrike, issued by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which stated that bombs hit civilian houses and noted that an ICRC counterpart in the Red Crescent was among the dead, will become familiar reading in the weeks and months ahead.
We are the best recruiting weapon the Taliban possesses. We have enabled it to rise from the ashes seven years ago to openly control over half the country and carry out daylight attacks in the capital Kabul. And the war we wage is being exported like a virus to Pakistan in the form of drones that bomb Pakistani villages and increased clashes between the inept Pakistani military and a restive internal insurgency.
I spoke in New York City a few days ago with Dr. Juliette Fournot, who lived with her parents in Afghanistan as a teenager, speaks Dari and led teams of French doctors and nurses from Médecins Sans Frontières, or Doctors Without Borders, into Afghanistan during the war with the Soviets. She participated in the opening of clandestine cross-border medical operations missions between 1980 and 1982 and became head of the French humanitarian mission in Afghanistan in 1983. Dr. Fournot established logistical bases in Peshawar and Quetta and organized the dozen cross-border and clandestine permanent missions in the resistance-held areas of Herat, Mazar-i-Sharif, Badakhshan, Paktia, Ghazni and Hazaradjat, through which more than 500 international aid workers rotated.
She is one of the featured characters in a remarkable book called "The Photographer," produced by photojournalist Didier Lefèvre and graphic novelist Emmanuel Guibert. The book tells the story of a three-month mission in 1986 into Afghanistan led by Dr. Fournot. It is an unflinching look at the cost of war, what bombs, shells and bullets do to human souls and bodies. It exposes, in a way the rhetoric of our politicians and generals do not, the blind destructive fury of war. The French humanitarian group withdrew from Afghanistan in July 2004 after five of its aid workers were assassinated in a clearly marked vehicle.
"The American ground troops are midterm in a history that started roughly in 1984 and 1985 when the State Department decided to assist the Mujahedeen, the resistance fighters, through various programs and military aid. USAID, the humanitarian arm serving political and military purposes, was the seed for having a different kind of interaction with the Afghans," she told me. "The Afghans were very grateful to receive arms and military equipment from the Americans."
"But the way USAID distributed its humanitarian assistance was very debatable," she went on. "It still puzzles me. They gave most of it to the Islamic groups such as the Hezb-e Islami of [Gulbuddin] Hekmatyar. And I think it is possibly because they were more interested in the future stability of Pakistan rather than saving Afghanistan. Afghanistan was probably a good ground to hit and drain the blood from the Soviet Union. I did not see a plan to rebuild or bring peace to Afghanistan. It seemed that Afghanistan was a tool to weaken the Soviet Union. It was mostly left to the Pakistani intelligence services to decide what would be best and how to do it and how by doing so they could strengthen themselves."
The Pakistanis, Dr. Fournot said, developed a close relationship with Saudi Arabia. The Saudis, like the Americans, flooded the country with money and also exported conservative and often radical Wahhabi clerics. The Americans, aware of the relationship with the Saudis as well as Pakistan's secret program to build nuclear weapons, looked the other way. Washington sowed, unwittingly, the seeds of destruction in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It trained, armed and empowered the militants who now kill them.
The relationship, she said, bewildered most Afghans, who did not look favorably upon this radical form of Islam. Most Afghans, she said, wondered why American aid went almost exclusively to the Islamic radicals and not to more moderate and secular resistance movements.
"The population wondered why they did not have more credibility with the Americans," she said. "They could not understand why the aid was stopped in Pakistan and distributed to political parties that had limited reach in Afghanistan. These parties stockpiled arms and started fighting each other. What the people got in the provinces was miniscule and irrelevant. And how did the people see all this? They had great hopes in the beginning and gradually became disappointed, bitter and then felt betrayed. This laid the groundwork for the current suspicion, distrust and disappointment with the U.S. and NATO."
Dr. Fournot sees the American project in Afghanistan as mirroring that of the doomed Soviet occupation that began in December 1979. A beleaguered Afghan population, brutalized by chaos and violence, desperately hoped for stability and peace. The Soviets, like the Americans, spoke of equality, economic prosperity, development, education, women's rights and political freedom. But within two years, the ugly face of Soviet domination had unmasked the flowery rhetoric. The Afghans launched their insurgency to drive the Soviets out of the country.
Dr. Fournot fears that years of war have shattered the concept of nationhood. "There is so much personal and mental destruction," she said. "Over 70 percent of the population has never known anything else but war. Kids do not go to school. War is normality. It gives that adrenaline rush that provides a momentary sense of high, and that is what they live on. And how can you build a nation on that?"
The Pashtuns, she noted, have built an alliance with the Taliban to restore Pashtun power that was lost in the 2001 invasion. The border between Pakistan and Afghanistan is, to the Pashtuns, a meaningless demarcation that was drawn by imperial powers through the middle of their tribal lands. There are 13 million Pashtuns in Afghanistan and another 28 million in Pakistan. The Pashtuns are fighting forces in Islamabad and Kabul they see as seeking to wrest from them their honor and autonomy. They see little difference between the Pakistani military, American troops and the Afghan army.
Islamabad, while it may battle Taliban forces in Swat or the provinces, does not regard the Taliban as a mortal enemy. The enemy is and has always been India. The balance of power with India requires the Pakistani authorities to ensure that any Afghan government is allied with it. This means it cannot push the Pashtuns in the Northwest Frontier Province or in Afghanistan too far. It must keep its channels open. The cat-and-mouse game between the Pakistani authorities and the Pashtuns, which drives Washington to fury, will never end. Islamabad needs the Pashtuns in Pakistan and Afghanistan more than the Pashtuns need them.
The U.S. fuels the bonfires of war. The more troops we send to Afghanistan, the more drones we send on bombing runs over Pakistan, the more airstrikes we carry out, the worse the unraveling will become. We have killed twice as many civilians as the Taliban this year and that number is sure to rise in the coming months.
"I find this term ‘collateral damage' dehumanizing," Dr. Fournot said, "as if it is a necessity. People are sacrificed on the altar of an idea. Air power is blind. I know this from having been caught in numerous bombings."
We are faced with two stark choices. We can withdraw and open negotiations with the Taliban or continue to expand the war until we are driven out. The corrupt and unpopular regimes of Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan and Asif Ali Zardari are impotent allies. The longer they remain tethered to the United States, the weaker they become. And the weaker they become, the louder become the calls for intervention in Pakistan. During the war in Vietnam, we invaded Cambodia to bring stability to the region and cut off rebel sanctuaries and supply routes. This tactic only empowered the Khmer Rouge. We seem poised, in much the same way, to do the same for radical Islamists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
"If the Americans step up the war in Afghanistan, they will be sucked into Pakistan," Dr. Fournot warned. "Pakistan is a time bomb waiting to explode. You have a huge population, 170 million people. There is nuclear power. Pakistan is much more dangerous than Afghanistan. War always has its own logic. Once you set foot in war, you do not control it. It sucks you in."
Twitter
StumbleUpon
Facebook
Delicious
Digg
Newsvine
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
125 Comments so far
Show AllOf course, the military/industrial complex chugs along like a well oiled machine...compliments of your congressman.
George Orwell, in his novel, 1984, accurately predicted that we would have “continuous war.” A look at the list of US confrontations just since Orwell published his novel in 1948 will demonstrate how accurate his prediction was…..
Cold War: 1945-91, Korean War: 1950-53, Vietnam War: 1956-75, Lebanon: 1958, Dominican Republic: 1965, Iran: 1980, Libya: 1981-86, Lebanon: 1982-84, Grenada: 1983, Panama: 1989, Kuwait: 1991, Iraq: 1991-03, Somalia: 1992-94, Bosnia: 1994-95, Haiti: 1994, Afghanistan: 1998, Sudan: 1998, Iraq: 1998, Kosovo: 1999, Afghanistan: 2001-to present, Iraq: 2003-to present, Haiti: 2004.
War will continue, breaking out somewhere else in the third-world just as Orwell predicted.
I see two reasons for continual war: one, that the US, as the Neocon’s described, has the goal of “Pax Americana,” of global domination, and two, our tremendous military establishment must be fed. President Eisenhower, on leaving the White House, warned us of the military/industrial complex overwhelming democracy. He said, “We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.” America ignored his warning.
George Orwell, in his novel, 1984, accurately predicted that we would have “continuous war.” A look at the list of US confrontations just since Orwell published his novel in 1948 will demonstrate how accurate his prediction was…..
Cold War: 1945-91, Korean War: 1950-53, Vietnam War: 1956-75, Lebanon: 1958, Dominican Republic: 1965, Iran: 1980, Libya: 1981-86, Lebanon: 1982-84, Grenada: 1983, Panama: 1989, Kuwait: 1991, Iraq: 1991-03, Somalia: 1992-94, Bosnia: 1994-95, Haiti: 1994, Afghanistan: 1998, Sudan: 1998, Iraq: 1998, Kosovo: 1999, Afghanistan: 2001-to present, Iraq: 2003-to present, Haiti: 2004.
War will continue, breaking out somewhere else in the third-world just as Orwell predicted.
I see two reasons for continual war: one, that the US, as the Neocon’s described, has the goal of “Pax Americana,” of global domination, and two, our tremendous military establishment must be fed. President Eisenhower, on leaving the White House, warned us of the military/industrial complex overwhelming democracy. He said, “We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.” America ignored his warning.
George Orwell, in his novel, 1984, accurately predicted that we would have “continuous war.” A look at the list of US confrontations just since Orwell published his novel in 1948 will demonstrate how accurate his prediction was…..
Cold War: 1945-91, Korean War: 1950-53, Vietnam War: 1956-75, Lebanon: 1958, Dominican Republic: 1965, Iran: 1980, Libya: 1981-86, Lebanon: 1982-84, Grenada: 1983, Panama: 1989, Kuwait: 1991, Iraq: 1991-03, Somalia: 1992-94, Bosnia: 1994-95, Haiti: 1994, Afghanistan: 1998, Sudan: 1998, Iraq: 1998, Kosovo: 1999, Afghanistan: 2001-to present, Iraq: 2003-to present, Haiti: 2004.
War will continue, breaking out somewhere else in the third-world just as Orwell predicted.
I see two reasons for continual war: one, that the US, as the Neocon’s described, has the goal of “Pax Americana,” of global domination, and two, our tremendous military establishment must be fed. President Eisenhower, on leaving the White House, warned us of the military/industrial complex overwhelming democracy. He said, “We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.” America ignored his warning.
How long must we cry "Stop the war, bring our troops home"? I'm pushing 50, and it was going on before I was born!
A lifetime of bloody fucking war (over "there" of course) is threatening to turn me into a cynic.
Let's face it, the US is a blood sucking vampire.
This country became what it was seeking to destroy 64 years ago, after entering World War II as the arsenal of democracy and ending as the New World Empire. We tried war criminals all the while preaching that fire bombing civilians in Japan and Germany, then finally releasing the unthinkable on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was our right.
The crimes of attrition go on from Korea, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Panama, none of this is new to the the empire. Each emperor with his own excuses for his governments crimes.
Peace movements, environmental movements, and civil rights movements, while having momentary success at times have all failed not for lack of working hard or sacrifice, but for the underlying fact, that the culture of empire is based on the abuse of the populace by the hierarchy, that violence moves down the system readily and that self defense by the abused is the ultimate crime.
The War will not stop, there will be no justice and no peace until the empire collapses. This is just the same story with different words.
I'm not so sure that a collapse of empire will bring about justice and peace. It all depends on what form the "collapse" takes, and how evolved that generation will be. Things change quickly. I'm hoping for the best, and working to create it.
Becoming What We Seek to Destroy?
One only need to read eighth grade American history to realize that the United Fakes of Amerikkka have Always been about killing off perceived enemies. It started with our wiping out the indigenous people, then invading the Mexicans, Tthen the Cubans and the Philppines, then the Germans, then the Germans - again, the the Central Americans, then the Vietnamese, then the Central Americans - again, then the Afgahnis, then the Iraqis, then the Afghanis-again.
When will it all end? Only when the United Fakes of Amerikka has wiped out half the population of the planet, including all of their own poor.
You might ask, who will then clean their toilets and wipe their asses? That's the only reason they will allow you upper middleclass ass-wipes to live. Then, who will you snobs have to shit on?
Be nice to America or we'll bring Chenecracy to your country.
Ah, that was great!
Pogo put it best, many years ago.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Do you think anyone reads your extremely long posts?
Hedges writes ....
"And because we have employed the blunt and horrible instrument of war in a land we know little about and are incapable of reading, we embody the barbarism we claim to be seeking to defeat.
We are morally no different from the psychopaths within the Taliban"
He is equating the US which has gone half way around the world to bomb a defenseless nation, with a nation that is defending itself.
Hedges is insane. Incapable of writing anything meaningful. And, I'm convinced he is one of the heavyweights ...... a real critic ..... but even he accepts the basic premise of our inherent if corruptible goodness and 'their' inherent savagery. Amazing.
Hedges always falls short when his theological background blinds his reason.
Becoming what we seek to destroy..yes this would be correct.
When during the course of ones day at work, 147 innocent children women and men
are killed and more injured,
and the person just walks on like nothing happened and in fact
declares "air strikes will not stop"...I would say our country has indeed
become the worlds most dangerous terrorists.
Bring America Back !!!!..........For some reason, our Great Leaders just could not heed, nor hear the warnings of France for the USA never to go into war in Vietnam and Southeast Asia !! LBJ knew he had been fed Crap by his Advisors.
*****The rest is history
=====For some reason our Great Leaders could not heed the advice of the UN and of Professional weapons inspectors, NOT to Invade Iraq !!
*****The rest is history
=====For some reason our Great Leaders cannot listen to the severe Russian
advice and warnings Not to go to war in Afghanistan.
*****The rest is our Future+
One tired soldier killed four of his troopers and then himself
yesterday at a stress tent in Baghdad, Iraq.
The military-industrial complex is a Beast which continuously feeds upon
itself, rolling on and on and on-------it has a life of it's own and defies
attempts to stop it...the Beast is alive and well, but very many of we
human beings are NOT ...just collatteral damages of an Uncontrolled Monster !
I have read on this thread that Republicans are war mongers and democrats are peace-loving souls. But it seems the problem is bigger than party loyalty. Obama is a democrat who uses bombs and maybe white phosphorous on civilian populations. Just the way Lyndon Johnson fought for the Great Society, but ended up pilloried on the Vietnam war. Does anyone remember that one?
“Beware of foreign engagements”: maybe Washington was talking about something else and in another world, but the quote is appropriate. We might say today, “Beware of the arms dealers that hand the country over to endless foreign wars. Read: http://thoughts-karen.blogspot.com/.
lol, you won't find many people here claiming that "democrats are peace-loving souls". The real difference is by political ideology; conservative/rightist and progressive/leftist. Many Democrats, at least politicians, are very conservative, at least compared to many of the posters on here.
snydly
So, then, what are the real reasons we (gov't inc.) are in Afghanastan?
Opium. Oil. Money. Power---corporate power.
The corporation is the manure the 'logic of war' grows in.
The Corporation is the Anti-Christ. This is not a "religious" statement.
This is an anthropological observation.
The corporation is to the modern world, as the Roman empire was to the people who recorded their dreams on scrolls 2000 years ago.
Ironically, most of the evangelical right considers it a great honor to suit up their children and send them to kill for the corporation---the deceiver, the prince of lies.
"Advertisement"=Fr: "warning"
Just as conservatives found it almost physically impossible to oppose Bush when he violated their core beliefs and became a big-spender to end all big-spenders, most of us liberals find it almost impossible to marshal our outrage against this war which is so clearly a violation of every principle on which Obama was elected. The Dick Cheneys of the world will never call Obama on the kind of atrocities you describe here. It is up to those of us who voted for Obama to put the pressure on him now to just flat-out end this war.
I don;t always agree with you, Hedges, but you are absolutely on target here.
Yes, the US itself is the best recruiting tool for the Taliban.
But they were hardly "ashes" before 9/11.
Please recall their destruction of the ancient Buddah statues,
which I believe was in early 2001.
America has no monopoly on unilateral cultural imperialism by force.
There was an interesting parallel in our War in Vietnam where our hypocrisy was blatantly revealed with Nixon and his RepubliCON henchmen trying to bug the Democratic National Commitee HQ in the Watergate Hotel (paid for by an illegal slush fund) to get an unfair, criminal advantage in the next election - while all the while claiming we were bringing democracy to Vietnam so they could have "free" elections like us chumps in the good ol' US of A. Meanwhile, they were "bombing the Vietnamese into the Stoneage" (an infamous quote from the 1970's) - "Better dead than Red" (another ugly quote from the "cold war' era).
The article has academic sociological value but does little to illuminate the path USans are obligated to traverse to force society's better interests into US foreign policy. Try reducing your income to below the taxable threshold and help starve the MIC.
Saturation advertizing, tell a big lie enough times and everyone will believe it.
Here is some wisdom from the past, which never seems to go away, but might if we were all aware of it and resolved to stop it.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Joseph Goebbels
29 October 1897 – 1 May 1945
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same for any country."
Herman Goering to Gustave Gilbert at Nuremberg, 18 April, 1946
As long as these remain truisms, so shall this insanity perpetuate itself.
The use of war is long understood, as it was 2,000 years ago :
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.
It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.
Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." (Julius Caesar)
Namaste
"People are sacrificed on the altar of an idea."
What idea? Religious crusade? Catching Bin Laden? Killing the Taliban? Oil Pipeline? Arms sales? Testing weapons? A New World Order? Protecting Israel? Threatening Russia? Saving Wall Street's Military Contractors? What?
Except for conservatives, nobody thinks those ideas are good enough to slaughter men, women and children to escalate the hate and blowback.
The republican ruling class has always been a code word for terrorist. Republicans always support terrorist and terrorism when it serves their cause. Simply read the history of any Central or South American country. Then in the past when true American patriots have tried to stand up for the truth, liberty, and freedom our forefathers died for they called them unpatriotic, American hating, communist supports.
It is so cute to see the MSM aided by the rightwinghatenuts violently attacking the Obama administration when a few months ago they were yelling that anyone not supporting the government should get out. The dems are far from perfect and we need libertarians, green party, and independents to speak for average Americans. But compared to the American hating, freedom hating, and liberty hating republicans they look like archangels.
Boy,the beat America up bunch is out in full force today. Like most things there is some truth to it, but not nearly as much as some would like.
Sometimes I wonder if anyone has been outside the United States and taken anything but a guided tour.
Outside the USA we find that people thrive where they have managed to secure their rights to land, water, food, etc, from the onslaught of imperialism, particularly US resource imperialism.
I think some of the blowback is due to the implicit assumption in Hedges' title: that we are inherently more "civilized" than those we oppose. Many have effectively exposed the lie of "American exceptionalism," but my favorites are Chalmers Johnson (who coined the term "blowback") for his books "Blowback" and "Nemesis;" Morris Berman for "The Twilight of American Culture" and "Dark Ages America;" and William Blum for "Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II." Guess I shouldn't leave out the works of John Pilger and Kevin Phillips. In short, we are not exceptionally civilized, just, or admirable. We're human--just strange monkeys with clever brains and primitive emotions. Sadly, the latter makes horrible use of the former.
Well, there's a full moon waxing and I'm cranky anyway for other reasons but, you're right, we are an angry bunch today.
I had the good fortune to live in Australia off and on for about six months during 2000-2001. Granted, Johnnie Howard was as much Bush's lapdog as was Tony Blair, but the people never seemed to express the same level of anger that we do. They watch a lot less television and are far more sociable, so perhaps their bullshit detectors are more functional. Maybe they are less surprised and betrayed when their politicians lie. I dunno, but for the harsh global climate change effects on Australia and the fact that my family is all here, I'd have moved there in a heartbeat.
a guided tour of countries sucked dry and propped up in chaos to serve in the interests of the suckees who hide behind our elected officials.
Sorry if "America" gets a bad name, it's the American Sheeple causing the problems!
Think about it:
"...bull-necked generals and militarists whose careers, power and profits depend on expanded war..."
"...We have enabled it (the Taliban) to rise from the ashes seven years ago..."
Just saying... if "we" actually ceased our occupations of and pulled out completely from Afghanistan and Iraq, the war mongering profiteers would be, like, totally unable to pay the rent, which would force them to find another country full-o-terror to illegally attack, like, I don't know, Pakistan or something...
Many years ago I sat in a class to watch a movie of how the North Vietnamise
brain-washed their soldiers. About mid way through it I realized that the
country I had volunteered to defend was trying to do the very same thing to
me. It's all macho BS. We are taught how great this country is from birth.
Most of the history (written by us) learned in school is nothing but BS. We
hear and read ONLY the good parts. We stole this land from the Native
Americans, kept black people virtual slaves until the 1960's, meddled in
most every government in South America and the Middle East, and always claim
we want to "free" or "help". I hope no other country ever wants to "help"
us with guns, bombs and bibles. Someone above said we hadn't learned from
history as Germany and France had. Perhaps it's because the real story isn't
even mentioned in our schools. Only the "feel good about America" part is
taught.
IMPEACH OBAMA! Impeach ALL The Imperialists!
Ron Paul For President - END ALL The OCCUPATIONS
Support the Troops - Bring them ALL HOME NOW!
Gringos and Israelis became what they SAID they sought to destroy a long time ago.
Liars and genocidal savages.
They also destroyed the planet.
And the difference between Afghanistan and Vietnam is.... ????
What I don't understand is how all those people go to work in arms factories every day and don't commit suicide over their heinous crimes. I remember how gut-wrenching it was to see people I knew going to work in the local arsenal 'because it pays better' - I was dumbstruck. No morals. None. Nothing. Makes dope-dealing look highly respectable - at least addicts want the product - how many people want to be bombed? This is group-think of the worse kind - the real 'banality of evil' - the Theory of the Grotesque writ large. The Nazis were oh, so proud of their military machine... until Barbarosa. (Stalingrad) And the good German people couldn't understand why those barbaric Anglos were bombing the hell out of them... not a clue. That's why they went after downed fliers with pitchforks - as happens in any country that's bombed. Imagine what goes on in the mind of a person whose child was just blown to pieces by a psychopath who came 4-6,000 miles, spending billions of dollars, just to murder children - just like they did in Southeast Asia. Anglos are psychopaths - they should never be allowed to handle any sharp objects, let alone weapons. (Of course, I know people are all alike all over the world - it's the impunity that makes them act like savages - but I have this thing about Anglos, because they're still slaughtering people by the millions, long after the rest of the world decided that such behavior wasn't civilized. Got get the rage out of my system somehow...)
A R M Y B R A T,
Very instructive examples of "group think" ravaging America. Thank you and please do continue to vent as needed, as the pyrotechnics are enlightening.
We ( Americans ) also need to better integrate and align with the rest of the Earth, as you so well point out :
"… I have this thing about Anglos, because they're still slaughtering people by the millions, long after the rest of the world decided that such behavior wasn't civilized."
I would only add, that since 1950 nearly ~ 1.3 billion people have died or endlessly suffer, over this globe -- due to imperialistic warmongering greed and vapid domination.
¿ How many more billions of shattered lives will it take ?
C H E S S G A M E S,
Yes! Right livelihood is of utmost importance to a stable healthy and productively growing society, where well beingness is the predominate condition, and the fulfilling bounty of joy, peace, and love enrich and flow to sustain us all. Thank you.
Namaste
"What I don't understand is how all those people go to work in arms factories every day and don't commit suicide over their heinous crimes."
I think it's because there is a disconnect, like a butcher that only cuts the meat after the animal has been slaughtered, or a grocery shopper eating the end product. He or she does not see the animals' suffering.
It is interesting to note that "right livelihood" was part of the Buddha's eightfold path:
5. Right Livelihood
Right livelihood means that one should earn one's living in a 'holistic' way and that wealth should be gained legally and peacefully. The Buddha mentions four specific activities that harm other beings and that one should avoid for this reason: 1. dealing in weapons, 2. dealing in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), 3. working in meat production and butchery, and 4. selling intoxicants and poisons, such as alcohol and drugs.
Sioux Rose
CHESSGAME If "right livelihood" became a respected premise in American economics, the entire system would be shattered. Hail to that! Thanks for this enlightening post.
The "disconnect" is better termed "cognitive dissonance" (the "Why do I do this when I know better?" feeling), which I contend is one, perhaps THE primary reason for our appetite for diversions, from TV to movies to video games to sex to religion to recreational shopping to tranquilizers and antidepressants. That said, it can be hard to find a way out of a job with a bad company. After all, military contracts are fat, Fat, FAT!
Actually, it's disassociation - the farther you're removed from personal contact, the less empathetic your responses to those distanced. Those of us who perform vet work (on animals) or physicians (on people) must 'disassociate' in order to build a wall that allows us to do things that repulse ordinary people (including us). Stanley Milgram's experiments show that this distance also works in regard to authority figures - so it must work the other way around too, which is why 'officials' don't connect with the general public. Guys like Clinton just fake it - learned deception, which flies in the face of evidence.
Thanks (a day late)! "...the farther you're removed from personal contact,..." That reminds me of Dave Grossman's book: "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society." It's a lot easier to kill someone if you never actually see them suffer and die before your very eyes. No wonder predator drone operators can spend a shift bombing people, then get a bucket of KFC on the way home to a nice evening with the family watching American Idol...
There is a huge disconnect. Many, many people do not see their means of earning a living as tied to the kind of person they are. Thankfully, I do, and refuse to work in any destructive job.
Besides that, employers don't much approve of challenges to the status quo.
Yeah, because Africans never slaughter eachother, nor do Latin Americans, or Chinese, or Russians. Glad to know this evil is confined to only Anglo-Saxons and their related nationalities. Whew.
Oh wait. Haven't far more than a million Africans been slaughtered by other Africans in the past couple decades in Sierra Leone, Rwnada, Congo, Sudan, Uganda, etc?
Didn't Latin Americans slaughter (disappear) hundreds of thousands of their fellow people?
Didn't the Chinese slaughter more of their own people after WW2 than pretty much all 20th century wars and such combined?
Didn't the Russians slaughter, I don't know, a good fraction of the people lost fighting the Germans?
Anglo-Saxons have a ways to go before they live to up the Russians, Chinese, and maybe Africans in slaughtering people. Well no, maybe not Africans, counting the dead Iraqis and Vietnamese...but yes, as Thomas More said, nice racism there. And FYI, this Anglo-Saxon person made a conscious decision a year ago while still in college to only work in a job that advances the progressive agenda or works to improve the environment. And aside from a boring work-study job at college, where I don't think my receptionist work for the Department of Humanities and American Studies killed anyone, I've lived up to that.
I thought I clearly explained that I am biased against Saxons (I said Anglos, because that is what they are currently called) but I know this is just personal prejudice. My ancestors fought Saxon barbarians for over a thousand years - it's hard to get over that kind of hostility. It's in your bones. That doesn't mean there aren't other barbarians elsewhere in the world - my mother always reminded me that people are all alike, all over the world. We are only one species.
But personal experience and family feuds have a life of their own. And for the last few hundred years, those Anglo-Saxons indeed have made life miserable for tens (hundreds) of millions of people all over the world - and have been responsible for some of the worst of documented genocides (US, Australia, etc), including the predations of Nazi Germany. There is something really irritating about having your land repeatedly invaded by looters and pillagers - especially when it goes on for hundreds, even thousands, of years. Thank somebody that my ancestors got tired of this nonsense - otherwise you'd be a Muslim today. They drove the Arabs out of Europe and brought 'civilization' to the Saxons (the ones who remained in Germany) by defeating them and imposing a vicious authoritarian rule - tyranny. My family still maintains property in the Spanish March - and we still consider Western Germany as part of the ancient realm. Maybe Saxons really do have a 'bad gene' - but that doesn't mean other people don't as well.
Zmann...
Are you aware of the CIA's & MI6 & Mossad's role in fomenting civil wars in Africa, Asia, and Latin America over the last 60 years?
Are you aware of the European colonial powers fomenting civil wars on those continents for five hundred years...?
These are wars for resources, human labor, minerals, water, and land... The British, French, Dutch, Spanish, and Portuguese colonialists were brutal to the locals, and paying off one tribe to massacre another is what you refer to as Asians and Africans killing each other...
Granted, the Chinese are just another empire, and have carried out atrocities on
Their own people equal to the Japanese in WWII... Yet they have had 4000 years to develop their "art of war"...
Of course I am aware. But that doesn't let those various peoples off the hook for carrying out those acts.
And I'm not referring to acts of colonial times, I'm talking about the recent civil wars in Africa, and brutal right-wing dictatorships of Latin America...and you didn't mentions the Russians. And thanks for mentioning the Japanese, I don't know how I left them out after doing a class project on the Rape of Nanking...then again, it was 5 years ago. I didn't mention Vietnam or Cambodia because of our rather direct involvement with that. And yes, groups like the CIA would have encouraged those right-wing dictators and their ranking officers to kill leftists, and in many cases trained them in it at at the School of the Americas. But why did all those soldiers and secret police unquestioningly murder their own people?
I didn't feel the need to mention the Russians to you, since you had already mentioned them in the previous post...
The reason that folks kill their countrymen is legion... Promise of land, riches, and power come to mind...
However, look at the fundamental underlying cause of all the civil wars and genocides and occupations and drug wars around the world in the last 60 years... And you will find the CIA/MI6/Mossad fingerprints all over them... China is business partners with the USA today, and Russia is being necklaces by NATO... So that leaves the current economic and military hegemony of the USA and their sixteen intelligence agencies and blueblood banksters and multinational corporations and exploitive international trade agreements and wars of aggression solely responsible for creating the conditions where brown people kill each other over intentionally scarce resources...
Then there are the false flag events, where an attack is done by one group and blamed on another, like CIA's Gladio in Italy after WWII bombing marketplaces to blame the communists, or the CIA creating Al Queda to fight the russians in Afghanistan...
Of course, folks still choose to kill their neighbor, even if they are ignorant of the greater chess game that they are pawns in, and that is wrong... But the "Anglos" have slaughtered nearly ten million people in the last sixty years in their quest for global economic & political & cultural dominance, mostly by getting them to kill each other... Like arming both Iraq & Iran to fight each other...
"... it's the impunity that makes them act like savages..."
You sure have that right. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely (regardless of the race, gender, or nationality of the actor), and the impunity provides a type of absolute power. It is an extremely rare or even nonexistent individual that can follow a moral compass while possessing absolute power or complete immunity to punishment of any kind. The knowledge of punishment and accountability serves as a fence to keep our thoughts, and the actions following those thoughts, confined within certain spaces, and that can be a good thing.
Sioux Rose
ARMY BRAT: Powerful & excellent post. I fully agree with all the points you mentioned.
It's been said that the ENLIGHTENED warrior--one who's seen the damage firsthand--best understands the benefits of peace and/or diplomacy. This I believe explains why Germany and France tried to stop Bush from executing his pre-fabricated plans (on fixed cause) to invade Iraq. Having experienced the agony of bombed cities, they are less quick to cast this fate upon others.
England/U.K is an ARIES (ruled by Mars) nation and thick-headed. Like the ram ready to rage on until its horns get stuck in the nearest obstacle, it has never managed to transcend its macho dreams of empire, so plays side-kick to the U.S. on modern "adventures in conquest."
Again I must disagree with the conclusions you draw Siouxrose. I do not believe a nation state is ruled by the planets.
In my opinion you have the order backwards.
This came up in another topic but I doubt you read my reply as the topic was spent.
I would use the example of "The God of War" In China to make my point. The Characteristics of "The God of War" in China are VERY different then the ones we assigned to Mars in the Western world.
China also takes a very different viewpoint towards war then we do in the west.
It is how we chose to define our archetypes that shape our actions, not the other way around.
Just my take.
Sioux Rose
G W NORTH: I think the archetypes exist in their OWN right, and every culture that has sought to understand human life in relation to the larger cosmos, has done its own job of defining and deciphering the connections. Thus there are cultural differences in how these entities are understood and integrated. Mars is a VERY strong imprint upon Western nations, and it stems from the AGE of Aries, the phase that predated the arrival of Christ as Avatar. His arrival was the catalyst that began the Age of Pisces. These eras last about 2200 years each.
I do believe there is a cognitive interaction between these energetic essences and individuals, as well as societies. What happens is an interactive feedback loop. I do not believe that they are mere projections of human thought, and I do believe some persons can to a large extent transcend them. Most do not. Nor is ignorance of these archetypal imprints a means for bypassing their net effects.
A nation's sign is based on its date of incorporation as an entity. Us with July 4 is Cancer, Israel in May is Taurus, etc. One can make a decent case for the sign of a nation based on the body part the men tend to eroticize. For instance for the U.S. an apt image would be that of Hugh Heffner between two well-endowed bare breasted women boasting the adage, "Got milk?"
Well Canada, by your reckoning is a Cancer as well, but our respective histories could not be more different.
The US was born in bloodshed and violent revolution. Canada negotiated independence.
If you read John Raulston Saul , he concludes that Canada is less "european" in outlook then is the United States of America and in fact has more an Aboriginal view then a European view.
I just can not see how an entity called a country can be said to be BORN on a Given day given those dates are arbitrary .
France as example has transitioned from one Republic to the next depending on when one Governmnet collpased and another founded....Which of the days of incorporation do you pick?
If Canada has a similar Revolution with a new form of Government formed and we then decide to Celebrate our Birthday in May, are we suddenly THAT different?
I think not.
Sioux Rose
GW NORTH: The sun sign is only ONE of the factors, as the chart as a whole must be read. There are only 12 signs, after all, and what, 170 nations across the globe? One tough esoteric question is does the chart alter if the nation regenerates itself as a new seeming entity. In the Bible, when an individual was given another chance, frequently they assigned themselves a new name. A name, based on numerological influences, also holds sway.
Astrology does not say that economics, cultural influences, geography do not play key roles in the workings of a nation-state. Astrology seeks to understand how these factors work together. Jesus specifically chose 12 disciples, and Abraham founded 12 tribes. I believe there are 12 fundamental paths, motivations or perspectives that color our world. I just wrote something funny using a one-celled animal caught in a maze to define those 12 particulars.
Mexico is Capricorn, India is Capricorn, England and Germany are Aries, U.S and Canada are Cancer, and many astrologers see China as Cancer, as well. Those signs--the 4 cardinal signs (Aries, Cancer, Capricorn & Libra) are where GREAT "celestial" stress will be directed from late this year into 2013 at the least. This is why I say we can forget any AUTHENTIC economic recovery. How much smoke and mirrors will be used to bypass the truth is yet to be discovered. The stars don't lie! We mortals may miss in our diagnosis of their portents. I don't believe they cause behavior, but they represent thematic impressions that DO color the human experience in the way weather influences what we can do on any given day. It's a lie to pretend we are separate from and/or outside these forces. We all live in a world that is itself immersed in a fascinating celestial sea. Science is ever seeking to explain it, and not too long ago, took this world for flat, for the earth its center. Let's not be too hasty in presuming we know it all now.
It's amazing that you can so often be politically astute, yet you are fantastically superstitious. You're like a scientist who still believes in talking snakes and a 6000 year old planet.
Sioux Rose
I am a well-read intelligent person who is no snake charmer. My understanding of astrology is based on 30 years "in the field" of teaching, counseling clients, writing articles, maintaining lasting columns (and clientele), and writing books. In other words, it is a ph.D equivalent. I welcome anyone on MY LEVEL in this field to debate me. However, castigations of being a charlatan only reflect the limited thought process of those who have not witnessed what I have. And I happen to have studied science on a college level, along with sociology and psychology. Some of my best clients are Ph.Ds, including several psychiatrists. One uses the I ching before making decisions at the hospitals he runs. Why do you think astrology has been so disparaged, when many of the elite utilize it?
I met a highly educated Jesuit who left the flock to become an international oil salesman. He told me astrology held hope because it offered a path to human change and evolution. I think it also expands our definitions of personhood behind the ill-fitting "one size fits all" that's led to so much prejudice and hostility for centuries. I offer this perspective in the forum because apart from pabulum-style generic horoscopes (which the uninitiated take for real astrology) it is difficult to find this subject used in a SERIOUS manner in any media. My television program aired for 7 years and was VERY popular in the Florida Keys, even among professionals. I have read for sheriffs and law enforcement, judges, and high-powered people. Superstition may just be a glib word you use to cover what you lack the understanding to appreciate. But there's always hope that your mind will open and a new light will find its way into the crack.
Siouxrose,
"I welcome anyone on MY LEVEL in this field to debate me." That's a little lofty, don't you think? It sounds like a line Sean Hannity would use to get out of a debate. "Oh, well I won't debate you. You aren't at MY LEVEL". Geez, Siouxrose, tone it down a bit.
I'm only trying to point put what I view as a contradiction in your perspective, I didn't intend to insult your intelligence. As I said, you are politically quite astute, and I view that as much more important than your religious views.
With politics, you don't appear to accept much on faith alone. You require evidence. If I were to comment on what a wonderful job Obama is doing, you would challenge me to prove my point. If I couldn't, then I assume you would point out that I was believing in something with no rational basis, right? So all I'm saying is that perhaps you should be applying this same standard to your religious beliefs. I'm questioning why any intelligent person would choose to believe a doctrine based purely on faith.
Of course, it should go without saying that mystical or religious beliefs can't be proven. That's the point of them. They all require faith. Which is dangerous. Because let's face it, ANYTHING AT ALL can be accepted on faith.
In fact, the word "faith" specifically means a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". ((Merriam-Webster Online)
I'm not saying that all religious beliefs are dangerous. Only that the standard of believing anything purely on faith is a dangerous one.
It also sets up a dilemma for the true believers of the world. The world is full of religious scholars and superstitious people all lacking evidence to support their claims. Are they all correct? They all seem to think that while they are right, someone else is wrong. But on what basis?
If you are a person who does not believe that every single superstition, mystical, spiritual or religious belief is true, then how would you determine which are real and which aren't? And what would you say if, for example, a Zoroastrian worshiper tried to convince you that their beliefs were real, simply on the basis of their expertise in their own religion? Would their knowledge matter to you if you felt that what they were studying was simply mythology? Are Saudi Wahhabists justified in their mistreatment of women simply because they can claim to be experts in the own religion? Look at it this way, how much would you value an expert in Scientology? Personally, I feel sorry for the Scientologists, they aren't really any more absurd than other religions (well, okay, maybe that's a stretch, but still).
You may be comfortable with a doctor that uses "the I ching before making decisions at the hospitals he runs." Or the idea of "sheriffs and law enforcement, judges" utilizing these beliefs (I hope you didn't mean in doing their job), because these are beliefs that you already accept. But what if the same behavior was applied to a religion you didn't accept? How did you feel about Bush using his religion to guide his decisions as President? I doubt you supported that, right?
So please tell me again how you determine that his beliefs are clearly insane or dogmatic, but your beliefs are the truth? There really isn't a formula for that is there? Lacking evidence, it's just a choice to either believe in something or not, much like some people choose to believe in ghosts, faeries or aliens. I don't mention those things to be glib or to insult you, but merely to point out that to assert the existence of those things requires no evidence of their existence, just faith. I can just as easily assert the reality of time travel as you can assert the reality of astrology.
This is because spirituality and religion are by definition; irrational. They are beliefs with foundations in faith, not evidence. So how can one even approach this discussion when the topic of the discussion intrinsically defies logic or a basis in objective reality?
You attempted to buttress your argument by claiming that "many of the elite utilize" astrology. I'm sure this is true, but why would a person as intelligent as yourself use this to defend your beliefs? Does Christianity become truer the more people practice it? The litmus test for whether or not something is true has nothing to do with it's popularity as a belief.
"Superstition may just be a glib word you use to cover what you lack the understanding to appreciate. "
Not at all. I meant it as: "1 a: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b: an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition2: a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary" (Merriam-Webster Online)
Sioux Rose
HOPED UP: Bush used his "religious" beliefs as a basis to KILL. Astrology is generally practiced by enlightened persons (sure, there are a few who just want to seem glib, use their seeming power of lofty language over others, and a few insecure males toward the hope of getting laid, no doubt) who wish to clarify the areas where mankind can transcend itselft, and rise above conflicts to see the ultimate UNION of the individual with the grand, complex design of our world.
Religion, as someone else mentioned, is about rules of conduct; astrology is about seeing the areas of concordance between events on this earthy plane and the movement of the outer spheres. I do believe in "God" in the sense there is a great Universal Intelligence that is also coupled with LOVE. And I see this love as written into DNA as a dancing whirling everlasting embrace between Yin and Yang. Life is after all the product of EQUAL input from both gender/parents. Too much of human philosophical and religious interpretation is based on the masculine side "of the force," which is to say logic devoid of intuition, analytical left brain sans the more mystical and inclusive right brain.
Shaman can often diagnose what an orthodox medical doctor cannot. I have been in the presence of Indigenous medicine men, inside Buddhist temples in Asia, ashrams in India, jungles of Puerto Rico and Hawaii. I have practiced rituals that have demonstrated what science may or may not have an explanation for. There are wonders that so exceed what we take for possible. No one in this forum is going to convince me to disbelieve the evidence of my own experience. And we're talking about experiences that began when I was a teenager, so that goes back almost 40 years.
The Zodiac, based on the circle with its 360 degrees has been read by high clairvoyants and I have a particular book which I purchased in London when a student there that is the most profound item I have EVER seen when it comes to the delineations of human character & personality. (These lead to destiny and the unfoldment of personal events.) These Zodiac degrees are in my view the equivalent of cosmic DNA flowing from the nucleus of our own universe. Each of the 360 is endowed with character, and since the birth chart contains 10 factors that are considered "planets," what I have found is that 3 or more will be found on degrees that say the same essential thing. Mine are about prophecy and being a Sybil or Seer. In other words at the moment of my birth which was during a solar eclipse, I came in with the "spiritual DNA" that designated me as natural mystic. A lawyer I dated had degrees all stressing argument and polemic; and my best friend (who has owned restaurants and is the KINDEST being I have ever known) has degrees all about social relationships and being "the pivot of merrymaking." Charles Manson's degrees, one of them, was about "the practice of satanism" and "forming a challenge to society's basis in mores."
Once again no one has worn my mocassins to have seen what I have seen or know what I have spent this lifetime and others gathering in the way of spiritual/esoteric sentience. I offer these views to this forum as some are interested. MANY have told me they look for my postings. Had my TV & radio shows not been taken off the air, I would not be here.
I want to close with an idea that my sister, an artist, shared with me. The cubism school of painting came about before nuclear fission. My sister said that artists had already broken the planes of matter before science did. Poets, artists, and mystics have often known what scientists have not. If we limit the basis for inquiry and conjecture, see the beauty of the shaman/mystic's field of sentience as merely out-dated, and superstition-based, we limit our own undersatnding of the wonders that extend beyond our ken. Richard Bach wisely stated, "If you argue for your limitations, you get to keep them."
Siouxrose, thought I'd jump in here, been wanting to write you about this for awhile. Apologies to others for being off topic, or not since it's already being discussed.
I admire your writing and commentary here at CD and consider you highly intelligent and well informed and don't doubt your integrity. I've noticed that you occasionally receive criticism for your astrological commentary and thought I'd throw in my 15 cents.
Years ago I immersed myself in the study of astrology. Much of that study was self taught but I did study occasionally with local well known astrologers. I never practiced professionally, my interest was primarily from curiosity. Having studied sciences at a University, I couldn't help but bring a scientific approach to the study of the "esoteric arts" like tarot, I-Ching, and astrology. I continued for a number of years, fascinated by the complexity, yet baffled by the evidence. From where was this information coming? It was like religion -believe it because the ancients taught it- sort of rationale.
My problem was that it wasn't verifiable in the scientific sense, but I still wanted to believe. I witnessed a few times where I, or someone else, would do an interpretation that appeared to make perfect sense, signs and houses and planetary aspects all seemed to justify certain personality characteristics, only to find that a date or time was wrong and a new chart had to be drawn up, but then that chart would be read and continue to verify other personality traits. It started to look like any personality characteristic could be justified by any configuration.
At one point I tried to get some astrologer friends to do a scientifically verifiable study, maybe through the Pysch department. Students could participate, double blinds could be set up, personality traits characterized (they are anyway in some Psych departments) the planets tracked, changes and events marked, cataloged, and analyzed. It obviously didn't materialize, and I eventually moved away from astrology as a way of explaining and predicting personalities and events, but I do respect it as one of the preeminent systems of influece in the history of thought.
But as a system for explaining the mysteries of personality, of worldly events, or of the workings of the universe it falls short. It's too relativistic. It fails the law of Falsifiability and is open to Kolakowski's Law of Infinite Cornucopia.
Astrology is seen by most as an outdated explanation for the workings of the universe, at least in it's current form. It's stuck in a Medieval mindset.
I hope I haven't angered you, apologies if I have. But all that being said, I confess that I still consult the I-Ching on a regular basis. I've continued studying it for many years and swear by it's wisdom, at least on a personal level. Hypocritical? Maybe, but what I've wanted to say to you before I became long winded is that astrology, as the I-Ching, can be a tool for looking intuitively into the mysteries. I don't doubt your abilities to use astrology as a window into the non rational, transcendent realms. I believe your intentions are to help and to heal, and astrology is a vehicle for you to facilitate that and there is nothing wrong with it on that level.
To sum, I see it as an intuitive art and a personal tool for some, as yourself. But it's effectiveness resides within the heart of the interpreter and not as an objective system of science, at least as we define science at this stage in our understanding.
Peace and LOve and all good things. REB
Don't know if SR will see these posts, but rebelnow and hopedup have some excellent queries re astrology. Few are more accurate politically on CD than Siouxrose and maybe she gets some of that from her work in astrology, but the practice of astrology itself can't help coming under fire from educated people, superceded as it is by advances in astronomy and physics, psychology (the non-pharmaceutical variety) and philosophy over the past few centuries. I've been amazed by the claims of astrology as anyone, but I can't see how it's grounded in anything even vaguely empirical, and therefore falsifiable, as rebelnow reminds us. It's ancient, and so carries a lot of mystical cargo, and no doubt many of the ancients had far deeper insight into the mysteries of the universe, but we have no way to verify any of that. I had trouble with hopedup's insistence that astrology is "religion" or even any kind of faith system, though I get it in a sense. It's not really religion, though, because it has no doctrine of salvation, redemption, or anything else except some sort of bystander-enlightenment promise. It sort of says, Learn this and you'll be able to predict stuff and interpret events you can't possibly control, influence or affect in any way. But you'll seem wise knowing this system. Like the I Ching or Tarot, the practitioner can appear to be enlightened but there's nothing s/he can do about anything. What's the point?
"I can't see how it's grounded in anything even vaguely empirical"
Tabulating empirical evidence is the least arguable element of the scientific process. What about the formulation of hypotheses/theories? How objective are these formulations, even given peer review? In which directions do they lead, and why? Aren't they subject to the indoctrination and political agendas of the scientists and their sponsors? Aren't they subject to intellectual or, heaven forbid, spiritual limitations?
Sioux Rose
EPHRAIM: Yes, the all-seeing eye (LOL) of Ms. Rose has seen this post... there is no doubt an ART to the interpretation of astrology, and as was the experience of Rebel Now, I wonder if too much focus on specifics narrowed the capacity to read the Gestalt? No system, including X-ray diagnosis or any other "scientific means" for calculating or analyzing this world of mysteries, is ever always right-on... I do know that I have been right quite often, and that's why I have repeat clientele. I put a prediction into this forum for autumn this year, there are a few astrological factors that seem to set up the condition in September, but the real upping of the ante shows in November (different set of influences), but in either case, problems with $/resources/the economy I believe will worsen then. Check it out. If this doesn't take place, I'll be humbled.
I think the Western educated mind has been somewhat narrowed in learning to focus on areas of specialization. When I first began bringing my books to agents they would say (to me this was something straight out of Saturday Night Live), "Is it sacred ecology or astrology? Is it women's studies, or magic?" In other words, because my work bridges different arenas and fuses different supposed venues, it loses a definitive classification, which is all-important to those who wish to place books under categorical headings in libraries or book stores.
I didn't see the financial bottom coming out last autumn due to my emphasizing the positive aspects (Jupiter Capricorn to Saturn Virgo), and indeed the indications turned out to be quite a monetary advance for those who already had money or monetary access--i.e. bankers. The evidence was in plain sight, but on account of the programs that exist in my own mind, I focused on other data. THAT is where astrology can fail, that we practitioners are not perfect conduits of information.
Astrology has not been disproved, it doesn't suit the parameters of those who set up "scientific" tests. Their criteria is often limited, and in my view attempts to square the circle. And I am not limited to astrology. I have studied a number of oracles, comparative religions, psychology, sociology, some of the natural sciences, and in this forum, politics. My work is to synthesize these forms of inquiry into an all-encompassing system that helps persons make sense of their world. AS to "what's the point?" Well, in the case of one prominent client, the information arguably saved his life. When his wife came to me 25 years ago and I mentioned the tough cycle (and its time parameters) her husband was about to confront, his having this information helped pull him through a very difficult recovery process that followed a sudden, unexpected (apart from the astrological warning) surgery. They are devout Catholics, the wife says she ONLY gets readings from me, and that family felt indebted to me for the info. That is merely ONE case.
Obviously if I didn't see worth in this work I would have given it up. As I see it fate and free will dance together, neither has the "final" word, but who can say some of the conditions in life are not imposed upon them (i.e. fate), and some not the product of "free" choice? In any case, input from critics prepares me for what I am apt to encounter if my newest book, radical and quite powerful, makes waves. So in that respect, thank you to friends and "foes" in the forum. You force me to hone my game.
On the flip side... Scientists have been able to empirically document many of the celestial (astronomical) claims by mystics (like the outer planets) that weren't visible to the led eye or technology of their day...
The study of quantum mechanics have also "proven" the existence of subatomic particles and probability feilds that were described in eastern mythology, as articulated in Fritjof Capra's "Tao of Physics"...
Ayujuasceros and shamans in Amazonia painted "patterns" on pottery and parchment, and woven into their crafts, describing them to western ethno-botanists as the structure of the body & soul... They were deemed the ravings of lunatics, until scientific technology evolved to the point where through electron microscopes, scientists could see the structure of cells, organelles, chromosomes, molecules, atoms, and sub-atomic particle feilds... The paintings look remarkably accurate for "primitive" people ingesting hallucinagenic plants hundreds of years ago through today... From "the Cosmic Serpent" by some Stanford Professor...
If you limit your view of astrology to what the catholic church has viewed it for millenia, than yes, scientists have been debunking the debunkers... If you stripped the esoteric and spiritual value of astrology, you are left with the cold calculations of astronomy...
I wonder how much knowledge of the stars and planets based in astrology was borrowed by scientists in formulating their inquiries...?
I wonder how much scientists have "proven" empirically what astrologers have long known to be true...? Humans have been observing the sky for thousands of years, and after observing celestial phenomena, (like planetary cycles, the procession of the wobble of earth's tilt, etc) made their own scientific inquiries based on the science and technology of the time... Modern day scientists are building upon the groundwork laid down by astrologers more so than disproving some superstitions of a bygone era...
Also, science has discovered many paradoxes in nature, where the Newtonian laws of physics break down on quantum and astro-physical levels of scale, where they invent "dark matter" in order to balance the equations of their limited mathematical models, where the mere fact of observing an event changes the outcome of subatomic particle characteristics of location and spin, in different ways for different observers simultaneously... "the Dancing Wu Wei Masters" by Gary Zukov explains these issues in layman's terms...
So where specifically does modern science disprove astrology...?
Of course, both sciences are interpretations of physical structures & events...
Racism knows no bounds.
First I'd suggest that Afganistan at this point has little to do with Afganistan, it has everything to do with Pakistan.
Next while I tend to agree with most things stated, don't forget that many of the Talibans victims are not reported. Stonings, lashings, etc. Not that a balance of killing means anything, but I wouldn't be too kind to the Taliban here.
The militants who control Pakistan are the same forces controlling Afghanistan. The civilians in both countries are sick and tired of this from what I've read and been told. However, I would add that the US and NATO are also responsible for aiding the oppressive leaders and militants against the lives of the civilians in both nations. Contrary to what I used to believe, I now fully realize that neither the US nor NATO have any business sitting in that nation. I don't know what it will take for Afghanistan to recover but America had better butt out and mind its own business. She's already bleeding on all fronts. When will Washington ever learn?
The Taliban are scum.
The US are going around bombing undeveloped Afghan civilian villages with weapons made to fight World War 3.
The Taliban are scum trying to eject the US, which is bombing civilian villages with weapons made to fight World War 3, from Afghanistan.
Do you see how bombing civilian villages might actually HELP the Taliban scum?
"Do you see how bombing civilian villages might actually HELP the Taliban scum?"
Apparently this lesson is escaping the notice of our commanders in the field....or more likely they are being overuled out of Washington as was the case in my experience.
But its a valid point and a simple one.
The Taliban is a brutal extremist group, too bad we are empowering them as the lesser of two evils!
Do the people support a foreign nation that hates their religion, installs their puppet government and bombs their wedding parties from a unmanned drone?
Or
Do they support an extremest group that shares their hatred of the foreigners that bomb their villages, family and friends and force them into refugee camp by the millions? Leaving their homes and live to be destroyed?
What would you do?
------------
I saw CBS / 60 minutes- They are Whores!
Easy, I'd be out there fighting against the foreigners invading my country. My county, my problem and get the hell out of my country would be my view. If I don't want the Taliban I'll get rid of them. This is not like the French helping us during our revolution.
You're absolutely right. The Taliban is the scum of the earth. They are light years to the right of the most contemporary fascist Republican. They would have been brutal and backward even in the Dark Ages. But they're Afghans. And we're just another swaggering, puffed-up bunch of Hell's Angels riding out hogs into some backwater town, spoiling for a fight. The Taliban, slowly and methodically, will steal all our motorcycles, take our shoes and eventually, as we try to walk barefoot out the Khyber Pass, pick us off one by one. LONG LIVE BROCK ALABAMA! "WE WILL DEFEAT YOU!" Well, as Sioux Rose says, "Sure."
Sorry....itchy trigger finger ...double post
I'd steal that motorcycle myself if you rode it into America.
"If the Americans step up the war in Afghanistan, they will be sucked into Pakistan," Dr. Fournot warned. "Pakistan is a time bomb waiting to explode. You have a huge population, 170 million people. There is nuclear power. Pakistan is much more dangerous than Afghanistan. War always has its own logic. Once you set foot in war, you do not control it. It sucks you in."
This was said of Iraq, this was said of Afghanistan, and now it's being said of Pakistan. And in every instance it has been true. (We should add our alliance with Israel to the list).
We seem to be incapable of learning, or at least, of preventing it from happening.
"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other." Ben Franklin
"Learning teaches more in one year than experience in twenty. And learning teaches safely, while experience maketh more miserable than wise."----Roger Ascham in THE SCHOOLMASTER
afghanistan...heroin...
weaponry...the US economy...
Sioux Rose
Hedges uses the premise of "The fury of war" to suggest a blindness to actual operations. There might have been some of that fury right after 911, the way someone suffering a loss (albeit engineered from the inside out) responds at a primal, animal level. But it's been years since 911, the fury is gone. What we are seeing is a cold, objective, premeditated disaster.
One of Arthur Miller's most famous plays involves the daily pain to a family that has lost their son in war. As the story/theme evolves the reader learns that the father, a military contractor, sold shoddy materials which found their way onto airplanes, including the plane his son went down on. Much literature reflects "the law of consequences," a/k/a karma. With respect to the U.S. first destroying Iraq, and now moving onto Afghanistan/Pakistan, given the fact that through the illustrious Carlyle Group, high tech weapons have been disseminated around the globe, it is becoming almost inevitable that some of these tools of destruction will return to our own homeland in retaliation for so much unapologetic damage to so many. Some in this forum like to blame Israel for everything, but the U.S. is the big daddy and Israel is the off-balance first born son emulating the aggression of its "father."
How does a citizen begin to express the sorrow that his nation's "leaders" have upped the ante on illegal acts of aggression? What does the citizen do when the entire "representative" process has become a theatrical production kept in line to keep the masses quiet. America is so far off course, and courting her own disaster in the form of karmic blowback. INEVITABLE.
"What does the citizen do when the entire "representative" process has become a theatrical production"
Vote "third party" in all market/civic engagement, i.e. shifting all of one's individual exchange/association away from the power centers and toward one's local community. This gives the people a stake in something outside the control of elites, something to defend from elites, without any reason to hesitate. It's silly to try and defend ourselves from elites while maintaining a contract with elites. The problems persist thanks only to the people's failure to face their complicity.
May 26, 1637, Mystic river in Connecticut; English (American) colonists forced 400 to 700 Pequot natives, mostly women and children into a wooden barricade, set fire to it, burned them alive and shot anyone that tried to escape. 372 Years of brutality and counting. When was America ever on course?
Uh, 1637 was wayyyyyyyy before there was any semblance of an idea of the America we live in now. You might as well cite the Salem Witch Trials.
I was referencing an event that is considered "American" history. The settling of the colonies is considered the seeds of what we now know as America. When would you suggest the "idea of America we live in now" began?
While events of the Mystic Massacre have similarities to the British suppression of the Irish rebels in the 17th century, it does reflect a pattern that persisted throughout what became American history. Violence against the innocent have origins dating back into the dawn of history, flow through European imperial history and continue to survive now in American Imperialism, nothing new. My comment was in reference to Siouxrose suggesting that America is off course. My rhetorical question was "when was America ever on course."
Sioux Rose
REBEL: James Carroll said it best in an essay related to America's birthday, July 4, some years back (as pubished by The Boston Globe). That America is ever reaching for its own ideal and missing.
As for the idea of massacres stemming back in time, I have made elaborate cases explaining that the mindset of Mars--the warrior/conqueror--accorded with the dominant notion of the Deity as taken from the Old Testament. It speaks in a language consistent with the Age of Aries, where fighting for 'god' was seen as a viable premise of religious expression. This epoch preceded the birth of Christ.
When Jesus entered as AVATAR of the Age of Pisces, a YIN/feminine sign/age that was expected to balance the warrior rites of Mars with the understanding of forgiveness, compassion, and turning the other cheek. What happened instead was an exact continuation of the previous warring ways, only this time falsely using the endorsement of JESUS as basis for the killing. Is there a better example than the current Christian evangelizing of the US Air Force, and/or the idiot contests over whose 'god' is bigger as quoted from major U.S. military persons as viable cause for war?
The White European was programmed by the Christian ethos that never evolved beyond the Old Testament rites of Mars/Aries. Once again humanity has come to a definitive transition point as per the cosmic calendar. MANY prophecies from diverse sources witness in OUR times the signs of this transition. It is VERY important that the Divine feminine come into the equation as the fundamental loss of symmetry is costing us our world. After all so much of human behavior is designed to emulate Mars, ego-driven, coldly logical and devoid of nurturing feelings, and the absence of women in too many decision-making bodies(sadly in cases where women do get the pass to high positions of authority, they, like Colin Powell/Condi Rice/Obama have been so conditioned by the Mars-rules dominator society as not to differ in policy making from their colleagues)articulates this loss of fundamental balance.
Evolution happens slowly, but it is the spiritual course intended for mankind. When we judge ourselves on the basis of a very wounded or should I say crippled history and make assumptions on its limited basis, we lose the capacity for change. American imperialism is an outgrowth of the white-Christian Mars-rules belief system that has generated the false notions seen as: dominion over nature, that women are the 2nd lesser sex/gender, and that other lands (not white/Christian) are not yet "saved" or worthy of their own cultures or ways of living and thus must be conquered, converted, and/or Christianized.
These rabid beliefs work very well with capitalism which is also founded upon crude exploitation premises. The worst possible marriage of Christian fundamentalist views (or fundamentalism in any other sect, as is being seen in its Islamic and Judaic forms) with corporatism is underway and as we see all around us, everything is falling apart. The lion's share of this once rich nation's resources has been thrown away at wars of conquest, a sickening killing of so many innocents, and our own population is getting fat and sick and impoverished, and in many places the LAND is DYING. The value systems which stem from religion are working against life and the sacred. This is why I spend so much time writing books, essays, articles and scripts that seek to shift awareness. That is the seed from which the tree of new life may one day blossom. All the systems dying now are likely to serve as fertilizer for said tree. American history alone is not a useful example in determining where the disease, or old sick roots, lie.
You are amazing Sioux Rose! I would like to see you and Oren Lyons running as Green Party candidates in the next election cycle. We need a strong 3rd party to replace the insanity of the current corrupt shitstem. And the Green Party needs to look past Ralph Nadar.
Yes, I'm suggesting Oren Lyons and Sioux Rose on the Green Party ticket. What do you think?
I accept your point.
No "fury of war" led the USA into Afghanistan.
BEFORE 9/11...The United States of America informed countries in the region that they would be invading Afghanistan in october . An article in the Indian press carried this story.
This was cold blooded and calculated. 9/11 just became very "Convenient" for this planning the attacks.
Well said, Sioux Rose.
"What does the citizen do when the entire "representative" process has become a theatrical production kept in line to keep the masses quiet."
I don't know. At least, I don't have the answer for other people. I guess I stave off insanity by taking back a modicum of control and working to improve my tiny lot in life. I work on sustainability issues, I organize and get people together, I communicate with people, I work to knit together some semblance of sanity in an otherwise insanely egotistic world.
I don't know what else to do. I guess I could give in and go completely insane, as many of my countryfolk have done, but it behooves future generations for at least a few people to work for whatever future there may be. As long as I believe there may be a future, I have to keep doing this.
Yes, there I believe we are in for blowback. What we have seen is just the beginning. Even more reason for good people to step up their efforts.