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TechnoratiLet's Use Wind to Power Cars
Legendary Texas oilman T. Boone Pickens is half right. We do need to harness this country's wind resources for a homegrown source of electricity, as he has been urging this summer in expensive television ads. And we do need to reduce the $700 billion we may soon be paying annually for imported oil.
But part two of Pickens's plan -- to move natural gas out of electricity production and use it to fuel cars instead -- just doesn't make sense.
Why not use the wind-generated electricity to power cars directly? Natural gas is still a fossil fuel that emits climate-changing gases when burned.
Plug-in cars are here, nearly ready to market. We just need to put wind in the driver's seat. Several major auto manufacturers, including GM, Ford, Toyota and Nissan, are producing plug-in hybrids. Both Toyota and GM are committed to marketing plug-in hybrids in 2010. Toyota might even try to deliver a plug-in version of its Prius gas-electric hybrid, the bestseller whose U.S. sales match those of all other hybrids combined, next year.
GM is in the game, too, with its Chevrolet Volt. This plug-in car is essentially an electric car with an auxiliary gasoline engine that generates electricity to recharge the batteries when needed. It boasts an all-electric range of 40 miles, more than adequate for most daily driving. GM reports that under typical driving conditions, the Volt averages 151 miles per gallon.
This new car technology is matched by new wind-turbine technology, setting the stage for an automotive-fuel economy powered largely by cheap wind energy. The Energy Department notes that North Dakota, Kansas and Texas alone have enough wind energy to easily satisfy national electricity needs. To actually put wind power on the road, of course, we would have to tap the wind resources in nearly all the states, plus those that are off-shore, which the department says can meet 70 percent of national electricity needs.
Texas, this country's leading oil producer for the last century, is now our leading generator of electricity from wind, having eclipsed California two years ago. With more than 5,500 megawatts of wind-generating capacity now in operation and two vast wind-farm complexes under development, the state will have more than 20,000 megawatts of wind-generating capacity (think 20 coal-fired power plants). Pickens, with his own 4,000-megawatt wind farm under development in the Texas Panhandle, is one of the largest investors.
The key to this massive development is the state government's participation. The state facilitated the construction of transmission lines that link the strong wind resources in West Texas and the Panhandle to major markets -- known as "load centers" -- in Dallas, Fort Worth and Houston.
While many residents in some places, such as Cape Cod, take a NIMBY (Not In My Backyard) view of wind farms, the opposite is true in much of the rest of the country -- including the ranch country that extends from Texas north through the Dakotas. There, it's a PIMBY (Put It in My Backyard) issue. In ranching regions, competition among communities for these wind farms, and the jobs and tax revenues that come with them, is intense. Each wind turbine on a rancher's land typically brings a royalty of $3,000 to $10,000 per year, with no investment on the landowner's part. And the ranchers can continue to graze cattle on the land.
Some 30 states now have commercial-scale wind farms. The potential -- and the desire for wind energy -- is high. That's because wind wins on almost every count. It is carbon-free, cheap, abundant and inexhaustible -- and it is ours. No one can embargo the supply, the price never changes, and wind farms can be built in 12 months.
This is why shifting to natural gas to fuel cars, as Pickens recommends, isn't the best move. In contrast to wind-generated electricity, where costs are falling, the price of natural gas is on its way up.
Beyond that, there's the infrastructure question. How do we get the natural gas to the nation's service stations? These stations also would need to install pumps for natural gas, in addition to those for gasoline.
One of the attractions of pairing wind energy and plug-in hybrid cars is that it would not require new infrastructure. Indeed, a study by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory points out that the existing grid, using its off-peak capacity to recharge cars, could provide electricity for more than 70 percent of the U.S. fleet if all cars were plug-in hybrids.
While gasoline prices are probably headed to $5 to $10 a gallon, the wind-generated-electricity equivalent of a gallon of gasoline costs less than $1.
We are now in a position to launch a crash program to convert to plug-in hybrids on a massive scale and at wartime speed. This would resuscitate Detroit, reinvigorate thousands of the country's wind-rich rural communities, dramatically cut carbon emissions and quickly reduce the vast outflow of dollars for imported oil.
The car companies themselves seem on board -- witness GM's massive advertising push for the Chevy Volt. The ad ends with the Volt, standing at the base of snow-capped mountains, clouds traveling swiftly overhead. Its launch is targeted for 2010. Perhaps by then, the wind moving the clouds will also power the sleek-looking sedan below.
108 Comments so far
Show AllWell maybe its not all the Central Valley but when I drove across from Merced to Hollister, all I saw was corn forever. Never had seen that before. And several farm stands now defunct. Along I-5, lots of corn. More than I saw 10 years ago.
I think cultural change is tghe key. Scarcity will drive change more than anything. Let gas go up, people drive slower. Well now it is down and the SUVs were whisking by my Corolla at 90MPH and 9MPG. hough here where I live, they all insist on driving 35 in a 50MPH zone, hoping to save gas.
www.theaircar.com
two models to pick. One is 100% air, the other uses some kind of fuel , gas , diesel, ethanol what ever to super heat the air before it enters the engine. As we remember our basic science hot air expands so you use less air from the compressed tanks. Some models are bigger than the SMART car, that sells a 4 seat model in Europe but not here. Also in Canada the SMART is a diesel to get even better mileage than the US model that is gas.
If I did my math right the compressed tanks ( made by AIRBUS the plane people) are about the same pressure as a scuba diver uses. I even E mailed them and got a reply about an AIR Bike. Put a side car on a bike for summer or down south fun.
PaulMcgill:
Agree on some postings use old info. Been a fan of the air car for years and am signed up to buy on. Home windmills/ solar is a very easy answer to charging the electric or air car. Could very easily be used as back up in a power out. People for some reason feel that if you get off the grid it has to be cheaper. They miss the point of pollution is what you are fighting not lowering costs.
Good for you Paul McGill - Suggest everyone research AIR CARS - They're coming to the USA.
Great stuff. Here's another energy source you all should see:
http://cc.pubco.net/www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html
Hamster - Another potentially great solution. Less water, Less land = ALGAE !!
Of course this involves burning fuel, but only after the carbon has been taken out of the atmosphere. This wouldn't be as simple or direct as solar or wind power but it seems like a good solution where burning fuel is necessary.
a report came out a number of years ago indicating that the static electricity in people's rolled up wool socks alone, if harnessed, would be enough to raise the island of manhattan 200 feet in the air and spin it around at 33 and 1/3 rpm for nearly thirty minutes ---
gas is expensive because flesh is being burned to obtain it
Does it play the Rolling Stones,' 'You Get What You Need?'
My wool socks static electricity run my electric thermal underwear when I use my telescope in the winter.
Hmmmmm, Iraq? Smells like bar-b-que to me...
Big Jim and Old Goat,
You guys should patent your idea for a perpetual motion machine. Except for the fact that the patent office doesn't even look at patents of that nature. Usually someone says "why don't we just attach generators to the wheels that could generate electricity to feed back to a motor...
The problem is that there are losses and inefficiencies in energy conversion, from mechanical to electrical, from ac to dc, from one voltage to another, and the mentioned looses through the wires, friction from moving parts etc that make this untenable, in fact, every attempt to capture and feed back incurs more of a loss and thus results in a negative energy flow.
Qbaldsmoove, the idea is to extend the range of an electric vehicle.Generators on the wheels create a tremendous amount of drag, however, the drag from a series of turbines in the grill of your vehicle or on the roof in a scoop would be not be. With the advent of new lithium ion and nano technology (40 hour laptop batteries), it is just a matter of merging technologies and the world wins
BigJim September 7th, 2008 10:04 pm
"Generators on the wheels create a tremendous amount of drag, however, the drag from a series of turbines in the grill of your vehicle or on the roof in a scoop would be not be."
It's still drag, aerodynamic rather than mechanical but drag just the same.
Lobo Gris
An interview I heard with T. Boone Pickens included him making the point that he wasn't talking about cars with natural gas, he was talking about trucks and buses. Said that was where the huge waste was, that electric would slowly happen to cars as new ones were bought.
Its Electricity itself that is the problem, not the method of generation.
And it's cars themselves that are the problem, not the method of fueling the stupid things!
Electricity has always stolen from the future to produce unneeded novel gizmos today.
Us regular folks continue to be amazed and distracted by the gizmos( in this instance cars) while the current extinction event accelerates and the future burns.
And yes we do need to get back to the garden quick.
How? Well first we start with the lawyers....
There are more 'Electricity' beings in prison than white people. Some say their rights have been violated. Some say eonomics started it. Feudal shit, like Romeo and Juliet.
My opinion? Fuck it! Who can tell the difference between 'farads, currents, amps, volts, ohms, watts, quarks, neutral, protons, electrons,' and all those fucking formulae? Then ya havta' deal with switches, 12AWG, 18AWG, capacitors, stators, rotors, raptors, and those fucking resistors. It gives me a headache.
I know it's only 2:30, but I need a drink.
I'll check back with ya'all...
This article makes little sense. In any event, the problem with wind is it is not reliable and is intermittent. You must have a backup system for when there is no wind. Also, they take up huge tracks of land making it unavailable for other purposes and are unsightly. And if you don't have adequate backup for windless periods, you get shortages. Backup is expensive since the backup power will be running at less than optimal capacity when it is windy, meaning it is not earning revenue. Wasted capital. Capitalists do not waste capital, so back up will be inadequate.
The other issue of course is there is no shortage of oil and CO2 is harmless, so the subsidies we must give these guys and the higher energy costs we must pay is money out of our pocket, and into their pockets.
So wind is intermittent, unreliable, subsidy dependent, with high costs and low energy density, and, for these reasons, wind requires a full-time back-up power source which is unlikely to be provided. A perfect recipe for energy starvation, and more people who will die to to lack of AC in hot climates, or cold in cold climates. Only makes sense to the neo-malthusians.
The claim by those pushing this agenda is that they want energy independence, and this is a bogus one. Globalization and Free Trade by design make every nation interdependent on the global corporations who are loyal to no nation. Independence is not permitted nor desired by these people. Those countries who try to be independent get attacked or invaded by the US or NATO.
Pickens is also a great proponent to deregulate and destructure American industry and energy, so Obamas ties with him should be raising alarms. FWIW Pelosi bought shares in one of Pickens' key Texas energy companies last year at the time of the initial public offering of CLNE (Clean Energy Fuels Corporation, formerly known as Pickens Fuel). By throwing in with Pickens, Obama is simply forming a Green fascist alliance.
Fascism, ain't it great, we got Green Fascism on the left, Big Oil Fascism on the right, and Corporate Fascism for all in the center, left and right.
Pickens also funded the "Swift Boat" slanders against Kerry that gave Bush his re-election. Just more proof there is no longer a 2 party system except in name and style.
I have read this corporate clone's discussion infrequently but when I do I realize that he is a a shill for the oil companies or some other mega polluting industry.
"Fascism, ain't it great, we got Green Fascism on the left, Big Oil Fascism on the right, and Corporate Fascism for all in the center, left and right"
Wrong!
OR. . .we have you spouting off about everything without ever discussing anything that might be right or has possibility.
This one tops the list:
"The other issue of course is there is no shortage of oil and CO2 is harmless, so the subsidies we must give these guys and the higher energy costs we must pay is money out of our pocket, and into their pockets"
CO 2 is harmless in the right concentrations, I suppose that is unimportant to you our great science GURU? Your points land decidedly beside the point!
One wind turbine can supply over a 1000 homes with electricity. That means 80,000 of them on 80,000 acres of land could supply every home in America. That is less than 15 miles x 15 miles of land. Say goodbye to the coal lobby. Wind is free and clean. Coal requires destroying forested mountains and it is dirty and adds to global climate change.
Next: solar energy is the source of most usable energy on earth. Solar causes the wind. Solar causes the water cycle (hydroelectric). Solar grows our food. Solar power is inexhaustable.
Next: Hydroelectric. One big hydroelectric dam can supply a major city with cheap energy. It is clean too.
Next: fuel cells used with solar and wind power and hydro and geothermal can satisfy nearly all of our energy demands. There is no crisis. There is only highway robbery in the form of gas and oil fascism (raising the price of a barrel of oil fivefold in five years with lies of supply and demand.
Wind is unreliable? fact: the Midwest of the USA is one of the windiest places on earth. There's wind practically everyday on the coast of California. Rarely is there no wind on the California coast, where it blows practically every afternoon, in some areas at quite a clip of speed. Another fact: In Europe their wind energy technology is better than ours, and tide energy is also being used on coastlines! There's no shortage of sun in California, and the latest solar panels can actually be part of the roof tiles, and can generate electricity even on cloudy days. In Germany, a country not known for being so sunny, there's plenty of solar energy, as it's mandated on many new buildings. Spain is another country doing much with wind and solar energy,as it's quite a bit like California in climate: lots of sun and wind. Update yourself on the latest technology before you start accusing people like me of being "green fascists!" Hell, in San Juan Capistrano solar panels on a roof is ILLEGAL! Now that's oil and gas fascism! Real energy independence means that companies like Southern Cal Edison and PG and E might become obsolete, as each and every house could potentially power itself and the occupant's vehicle, and each and every workplace, from huge computer corporation to the coffee shop down the street, will power itself!
Pump water uphill. For example, at night, Niagara Falls electric power is used to pump water uphill at Storm King Mountain on the Hudson. The water is let down at rush hour. This energy storage technology is old and well tested. A nod toward newer alternatives in storage technologies. Good storage systems lead to 90% wind-generated electricity unless solar gets cheaper (which I might bet against but I wouldn't take long odds on it).
Also store compressed air to be stored in underground caverns, as has been done in one place somewhere in the Gulf region since 1972. Then the air is used with turbines when needed. Of course this has been done before the advent of workable cars that run on compressed air, which don't even need a conversion from air to electricity to work. The possibilities of renewable technological advances are limited more by funding than imagination or viability. It's well past time to get the fossil fuel/nuclear/corn ethanol, lobby/subsidies out of the picture, and back on the bus to the past where they belong.
I've looked at the PickensPlan and it looks like just a twist on the same old same old big consolidated corporate energy power grab. I look for him to start asking Congress for subsidies almost immediately Does he really think he can propagandize Americans to pay another large hidden tax on energy supplies, that will continually rise in price, because of a concerted advertising campaign? Then again most American are so ill informed they don't realize the 'no tax' Republicans have imposed a hidden ~$4.00 per gallon tax on us by the expanded expenditures on the military to try stealing Iraq's oil resources. That's right, folks, the REAL cost of a gallon of gas coming from the pump to your vehicle is near the $8 range...suckers!
Appearance is a matter of opinion. I just drove over the Altamont pass east of San Francisco today, and I think that vast wind farm looks really cool!
But the energy problem is too big to try and use the wind to keep using so many private vehicles. The wind can power steel on steel mass transit, but it would be a very wasteful and bad idea to try and keep a system that moves 2 tons of steel and glass every time a person goes somewhere.
Use buses, and let's build new streetcar lines and fast trains to get around!
I couldn't agree with you more. In California we will have an opportunity to build a high-speed rail line between SF and LA. The Repugs are already lining up saying this is a waste of money. Haven't heard any Democrats say they are against it. Even Scwartznazi is for it.
With gas as expensive as it is, Cal Train and BART (which, unfortunately, isn't on standard gauge rail) have had all-time high ridership. Same with the Metro in the greater Los Angeles Metropolitan Region. Even if gas prices fall, I doubt many of these riders will go back to driving cars solo to work again. They've found out that getting to work like many Europeans and Japanese is just more civilized!
Only way this will really go is if someone comes up w/ way to extend range of plug-ins and tremendously speed recharge time. Hybrid is ok for interim but we need all electric and 30 miles driving then wait for 6 hours charging time just doesn't cut it
You need to do your homework, bud, because you are going by old info. Electric (and air) vehicles can charge very rapidly now with the proper equipment, or slower when plugged into a standard wall socket at night when most people are sleeping. Additionaly, range now easily tops 100 miles, and is increasing all the time.
Besides, what's to say a 'service station' couldn't become a 'battery replacement station', where you stop and just replace the whole battery on an exchange basis?
PaulMagillSmith September 7th, 2008 11:50 pm
"Besides, what's to say a 'service station' couldn't become a 'battery replacement station', where you stop and just replace the whole battery on an exchange basis?"
One problem with that is that the battery packs, there are multiple batteries used to power electric cars, weigh several hundred pounds. It's not like running into the seven eleven and getting and replacing the batteries for a flashlight. Also the battery backs are not easy to get to on current electric cars. In the Honda civic for example the battery pack is mounted directly behind the rear seat, between it and the trunk of the car. A redesign could make it easier but that would take time to do.
Lobo Gris
Hi Lobo, Glad you seem to have survived the 'get new name & password' at CD intact. I see KEM had some problems, and it would be a shame to lose him due to an upgrade (which a lot of people seem not to like mostly due to new format & obstacles).
As far as battery packs getting changed out at a 'replacement station' that's just an engineering problem that can be dealt with (we made it to the moon, didn't we?).
Before the EV1 was squashed by big oil, in collusion with auto makers & a complicit MSM (along with compromised congress people), the existing batteries would take the vehicle 100+ miles (and advances made since then will rapidly accelerate). They will also surely get smaller & lighter. Think about it. Remember, too, the average daily distance driven by Americans is 29 miles, so battery 'overkill' is unnecessary in most vehicles.
And what do you do with the old battery? Where do you get the plastic casing for the new one? How do you extract and refine the metals/ chemicals for the battery?
These are basic questions the whole 'electric car' fad people have yet to answer.
Walk in peace.
Nowadays, almost every part of a lead acid battery gets recycled - especially at today's prices for lead. Preumably automotive lithium batteries would be similar.
Some kind of standardized quick-change scheme for multi-hundred pound battery packs could be devised - but this isn't necessary as there are quick-charging schemes being developed.
But the best solution is to deeply reduce dependence on the automobile through a return to smart urban design, public transportaiton and and intercity rail. Personal cars shouldn't be needed at all except in rural areas. Most of all people need adopt a slower pace of life.
You don't think that that problem can't be solved? Technology is the answer, and someone will solve that problem. It's not as complicated as inventing the hydrogen bomb or going to the Moon! The latest battery technology is lithium ion, and these batteries should last longer than nickel hydride, and give electric cars a longer range between charges. Check out the Tesla sportscar website, and then you might have a clue! People were so concerned about batteries in hybrids. I have a Prius, and the battery pack has a ten year guarantee. How long do the usual 12 volt lead acid batteries in gas-powered cars last? A few years? What happens with all the used up ones? Recycled?
You leave the battery at the 'service station'...it's a quick exchange/replacement system like the core charge at an auto parts store.
A good idea for the plastic casing would be to make them out of recycled plastic soda & water bottles. There's plenty of oil still in this world for manufacturing & industrial uses, but it is foolish to waste this resource primarily on transportation, not to mention it being environmentally detrimental.
Hummers & huge gasoline powered SUV's are the real 'fads'. What do you drive, Galen?
Public transit. Or bike.
Walk in peace.
I would like to find a group of students in MA/RI/CT to build an inter-campus shuttle with exchangeable batteries. It's not the hardest thing in the world to build. Maybe every hour, or even every half hour for some heavy duty applications, the driver would swap batteries. This would keep the shuttle bus on the road for 12 hours a day at a dollar a gallon equivalent. You out there, want to make some history?
The same thought - why isn't the moving car charging with its own wind??
It takes resistence to move a dynamo or turbine which generates a flow of electrons. The energy required to move the car would not off set the energy required to move the dynamo. However, for breaking or slowing down the car, that kinetic energy could be used to transfer energy to batteries. This would increase gas milage alot. Another idea is to store energy in a hydraulic system either when braking or slowing down. Then upon accelerating, the system would release the energy. thus gas milage would be enhanced.
I thought that this would have been thought about and done by now but it hasn`t. As we drive our cars we make our own wind so why can`t we recharge the batteries of an electric car with a wind turbine to atleast extend the driving range or even better yet not even need to plug it in. Somehow this has to be able to work and then once and for all we can tell Exxon/Mobil and all the other oil companies to kiss off and save the planet at the same time
Refer to my mention of the 'air' car, with a couple twists.
Since it runs cool (unlike the wasteful internal combustion engine) the space for a radiator should be a large open grill with a wind turbine in it. The whole vehicle top should also be covered with PV (solar) cells. Both systems (plus any additional generated while braking) power an onboard compressor that adds to the air supply already on board.
It charges while running, and even when parked.
Even without these additions an air/gasoline hybrid has garnered 850 MPG of gasoline, and shown the ability to go coast to coast on one tank of gasoline.
When not running on gasoline power the exhaust is nothing but clean breathable air.
Range & speed, just like electric cars, are being increased dramatically & very rapidly. Since the average American miles driven now daily is 29 they are both well past that already. If you had a choice between getting there fast a number of times, or getting there every time what does the sane rational person choose?
There is a show on the Green Channel now called "Mean Green Machines" that pits gasoline against electric vehicles in several competitions, and the green machines hold their own almost neck & neck. As the technology advances look for gas powered vehicles to soon be surpassed in almost all categories (noise excepted of course).
Fossil fuel powered vehicles are passe (although it takes about 16.8 years to replace the existing fleet of vehicles with better ones...unless serious tax incentives are arranged...a necessity, not a luxury).
This is the future in transportation. Get with it, behind it, or GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!!!
But how do they charge you for this? That would be free energy, no profit there. Thats why JP Morgan pulled the plug on financing Teslas free energy scheme, they had no way to meter it.
This is exactly why McSame favors nuclear E. It is not practical to make neighborhood reactors or township reactors. Therefore, giant corps get all that E-profit.
Is it Nissan that wants to put 40,000 electric vehicles into the L.A. area in 2010?
Rent and show the documentary movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" for a group of friends. People loved their electric cars in 1996, first because they never had to stop in at the gas station for gas (a real time waster once you're used to not doing it), and second because they didn't need oil changes, air filter changes and other maintenance (another set of useless trips nobody will miss). Electric motors don't have pounding pistons that can burn oil. GM refused to sell one car, all were leased, all were repoed. GM took every last car back, almost all in good condition, and soon crushed them all. "Owners" fought the repo men with civil disobedience.
You do realize that right now, you can have a plug and an extra battery pack installed in your own hybrid. Independent mechanics have a thriving business, although the big car companies refuse to help.
If you own a private business that needs to be a good corporate citizen, put 2 parking spaces in your employee parking lot right now, with free plug access. Post a sign, plug-ins only, all others will be towed. Oh, and two spots for plug-in mopeds so they don't take the car spaces. When those two spots are filled with plug-ins someday soon, install two more spots. Grow your own employee electric vehicle fleet. Give a plug-in hybrid to your employee of the year! She/he will blab all over town that her/his 20 mile commute to work costs fifty cents and the commute home costs nothing. You will lose 50 cents of electricity a workday, or $120 a year. You look green and behind the scenes you're a tightwad too, so how can you lose?
Follow the lead of California before their officials got bought out. Lean on your city/state department of transportation to put out standard plug-in parking spaces all over town, just two at a time for now. This revolution hinges entirely on maybe five employers or towns to take the lead, then it gathers momentum and it becomes unstoppable. Come on, five volunteers, public or private, in a small area, that's all it takes to start. Can you step up? I'm serious.
Electric cars are a good match for commuters if you can convince them to charge up at night, not during peak use daytime hours.
If we go to hourly electric meters for perhaps the 5% largest users, and if we charge the true peak load price during peak load summer hours, we will generate lots of peak load negawatts. Our traffic lights won't be blacked out, but maybe a few hall lights and glass blowing furnaces will be turned off for the afternoon. Also, people won't usually recharge their electric cars during those hours. We should be working on sample peak load avoidance users right now. Any volunteer researchers? All you need is a house or apartment, a willingness to go out and read your electric meter four times a day, and an eye toward power pool prices. Pretend you're being charged peak power rates, and see how well you do.
The facts:
My SCE electric bill for June '08,(May 17-June16, approx.) read sequential, 100 degree days interspersed through out with 95+ days, thermostat set at 78 degrees.
Billing: $440.00.
Put a solar thermometer next to my computer for the July bill. Each day I kept the thermostat at the highest (hottest) setting I could function with, 81 to 84 degrees, since I am disabled. I did this religiously. Even with my son running his stick welder 4-6 hrs at night, the bill?
$77.00.
August? $223.00. My wife and I in Seattle for two weeks. My son not asked to adhere to my tracking.
Don't believe the advertising to set the thermostat to 78 degrees.
We are spending $700 billion a year for foreign oil, and about a $Trillion a year on the military to primarily steal oil resources from foreign countries, Imagine if even a portion of that money were utilized toward a crash wartime-like program to achieve energy independence in this country. Although still on a learning curve existing technology is adequate to accomplish this, and we don't need more nuclear power plants, fictitious 'clean' coal, or the Pickens plan to get there, all three just leading to more centralization, manipulation, & domination by the same entities who placed us in our present situation in the first place through their unmitigated greed.
Pickens deserves a bit of credit for awakening Americans to the fact wind can be a very main stream source of clean power for America. He's a fossil fuel fossil, however, so the bottom line is as much about the bottom line now as it was when he made billions on oil. The only difference is natural gas is the latest product he is 'pushing' now. True altruistic motives, or a claim of love of America as a driving factor for him should be viewed with great skepticism. Rather than a patriot, first off he's a business man. I think he's 'greenwashing' his conscience & fattening his wallet at the same time. We've known an energy (oil) crunch was coming for nigh on 30+ years now, and he was in the heart of the oil insiders, so why did he wait so long to come out wearing his green super-hero costume?
Put 2+2 together. Pickens owns vast natural gas holdings, and the Rothschilds (who control the central banks in all but 5 countries...most of the 5 on the 'axis of evil' list BTW)control 80% of all the uranium in the world. These people, & a very few others of similar ilk, ideology, and desire to continue their domination of the masses, also control almost all the media, so expect a very slanted view on energy policy in their financial direction. They all realize oil is pretty much toast now, so expect a flood of MSM propaganda about the virtues of nuclear, natural gas, and the Orwellian term 'clean coal'.
There is hope, however. Technological advances can only be suppressed, obfuscated, or hidden for so long, when demand reaches a feverish pitch. Four dollar a gallon gasoline was a definite tipping point to have the world looking for other options than the 'same old same old' offered by the prior energy barons. Expect them to push back as hard as possible, to save their dying energy empire, and their resources to do so are entrenched & considerable.
While wind & solar get a lot of press as alternate energy sources with much promise a couple very good concepts get overlooked, namely geothermal & air. Geothermal (enough to provide heating for every home in America) is under every state in quanties to meet demand...and it is local & unlimited. Air (compressed that is) can power vehicles much the same as with an electric car, and has the added advantage of being storable in underground caverns for use when needed to generate eectricity for homes or vehicles. Mass produced 'air' cars will hit the market in several countries next year & the year after. Compressed air stored underground is much like a huge storage battery, and this has been done on a large scale in certain places in the country going back to the early 1970's.
Why haven't we heard about these things before? Well, when the same people who control existing energy supplies (uranium, oil, coal, gas) also control the media through advertising budget expenditures & outright ownership, of course you will get a slanted view (or no view at all) because of ulterior motives, collusion, or defrense of their empires.
Here's a good start. Gas & electricity for your stove are considered 'public utilities', and are regulated as such. Let's make ALL energy supplies 'public' concerns, and regulate them as such.
Gas and electricity have been deregulated by our Republican friends in Texas. we have some of the highest rates in the nation. Hooray for privitization.
Why the debacle of privitizing power and social services in Texas are not being used as a poster child by Dem's is beyond me.
I suggest we use the political lying airbags in congress as our means of air power.
While he doesn't mention it in this article, the new "air car" technology may play a part in using electricity to power our transportation system.
See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0KXrDpowJk
and
http://www.theaircar.com
I wrote to one of the research people at the Earth Policy Institute about air cars in reference to this article. The essential message was that compressing air generates a lot of heat. The loss of this heat during the compression process results in inefficiency when compared to straight electric cars with batteries. I didn't get any technical data from the researcher about *how much* heat is lost and *how much" more efficient batteries are for storing electricity when compared to a straight compressed air motor. But these people at Lester's organization are thorough and scientific and can be trusted. (Another good source of experts are the people at the Rocky Mountain Institute (www.rmi.org). If anyone here knows the technical details about energy loss from heating in compressed air, that would be helpful. The same applies to combustion engines which lose a lot of energy in gasoline to heat in the combustion process. The only other factor I can think of is using flywheels in a vacuum to store electrical energy, but that was a very long time ago and I don't know the current status of flywheels. These areas are not in my realms of expertise, so I must confess to a great deal of technical ignorance.
Thanks for mentioning that, Earthian. I must have been writing the same just as you were posting. Like the old saying goes, though, "If one pill is good take two" LOL.
Good to see others pick up on the compressed air cars. $10,000 for a VOLT replacement battery when it wears out.
Hemp, wind, solar power, polymers, water ...
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/jul/31/professor-looks-power-polymers/
...let's use all of it. Why does it have to be just one thing?
I'm certainly no scientist, but I remember some talk of a perpetual engine, one that doesn't need fuel, but one that needed to be built underwater for some reason. Was I imagining things? :) I cannot remember where I came across it. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
thegreatrockyhill September 7th, 2008 3:37 pm
".let's use all of it. Why does it have to be just one thing?"
It can't be just one thing. Alternative energy sources will by necessity have to be multiple and mixed. For instance solar doesn't produce electricity when the sun isn't shining and wind power requires goldilocks wind. Not too slow and not too fast.
We will need to have a mixture, of solar, wind, geothermal, wave energy, and hydrogen just to name a few of the most promising.
Lobo Gris
"I'm certainly no scientist, but I remember some talk of a perpetual engine, one that doesn't need fuel, but one that needed to be built underwater for some reason. Was I imagining things? :) I cannot remember where I came across it. Anyone know what I'm talking about?"
Most likely what you are talking about is a wave energy generator. It uses the moving water of the ocean tide and waves to run a turbine to generate electricity.
Lobo Gris
Sorry folks, but a perpetual engine is physically impossible because you can't vote the laws of thermodynamics out of existence. I'm friends with a couple of physicists who often get stuff from inventors making such claims but they never even look at it because it's got to be a waste of time.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Let's elect Obama and support Progressive Democrats of America http://pdamerica.org to convince him that progressive policies make sense and resonate with people's ultimate desire for peace, sustainability, and responsible economics.
I agree we should use all safe and clean sources of energy. But there is no such thing as a perpetual engine. It is just wishful thinking. There is always some tradeoff and some loss when energy is produced. It would be too long-winded to explain why, but you could look it up or ask a physicist.
And please nobody bring up breaking apart water and putting it back together again as a source of energy.
Joe
I'm for all those. Sorry I forgot to mention. Right now, I have no hope that any of those will be given a chance. Just look at the way tax breaks for solar and wind are being set to expire. I commend the Democrats and whoever else is trying to renew them but I don't see Mccain giving it a chance and even Obama has let it slide out the window.
I think we're all noticing a fork in the road where some are primarily or exclusively interested in reducing dependency on foreign energy sources while others are looking at climate change and realizing that ditching fossil fuels is essential to that big picture objective. These agendas are very different, though they merge on some points.
Good comments all.
A recent Science News article featured a study that could put the brakes on needed decentralized green energy sources--the necessity of pouring billions into updating the power grid to accept these decentralized sources of energy.
As to wind energy being noisy, many cruising sailboats are now equipped with small wind generators designed with tolerable noise levels, perfect for rooftops too when placed in groups perhaps in combination with photovoltaics. They could be used in off peak hours to charge cars without the need to update the power grid.
That windmills killed birds was debunked. The blades on the large windmills move too slowly and I've never heard of seagulls or other seabirds getting ripped by the small ones on any cruising sailboat.
We had a solar water heater on our house rooftop when we lived in the Caribbean. It worked like a charm and paid for itself many times over though I never even cleaned the glass.
Also of interest, in Tennessee, some are making ethanol from kudzu.
McCain's platform proposal for building 45 more nukes in the US regardless of spreading increasing cancer forever should be enough to disqualify him from the presidency all by itself.
Good post!
"Also of interest, in Tennessee, some are making ethanol from kudzu."
Hadn't heard that...very interesting.
For all I know we may need a few nuke plants...but 45...please!
I absolutely support the wholesale construction of an energy industry based solely on renewable methodologies. But I see Picken's suggestion of using natural gas as being a stop-gap measure to tide us through the next 10 years while 100% renewable energy gradually comes on-line.
Maybe y'all havn't noticed, but the demand for photo-voltaic panels has surged in the past 6 months. Prices are going through the roof (one well-known supplier quoted me $10K for a 1200 watt array, but I know where to go and bought the same stuff for $3.8K), and the waiting time for new panels is 4-5 months.
Naomi Klein's "Disaster Capitalism" at work.
How about tax credits for those who choose not to have children? Like BIG ones. .... You know, given what an impact just one human being has on the planet.
Now that is a purified reduction of logic. With a defining precedent in law, we could establish an 'assassination law,' paying subsidies for developed skills in 'sniping' individuals whose opinions will soon be known to HLS and other CD readers. :)
Great comment.
And who pray tell will be around to be your doctor, grocer etc. when you are old? Or should we tax old people to the hilt because they use up resources and contribute little?
Family planning? Yes. Contempt for children and "breeders"? No.
Joe
Perhaps keeping people alive as long as we think we should, is unethical. If I cannot take care of myself, I wont be living- therefor, I wouldn't want/need to be alive any longer. So you honestly don't believe that those people who make a decision NOT to reproduce (given the HUGE impact that one human has on the Earth) don't deserve tax breaks?! ... And people who choose not to drive a car, and instead ride a bike?! They don't deserve tax credits??... I see. Just those who purchase Hummers and have 5 children. I get it.
Wind, Solar, and geothermal are all good and non-polluting sources of renewable energy. As has been pointed out the key is decentralized production with government-mandated subsidies paid by power utilities for individual provider's of power like Germany now requires. The rest (rapid development of infrastructure and small scale generation facilities) will then take care of itself.
Poet
Decentralization IS they key. Every farmer/homeholder should receive tax credits to put up their own Generating stations, be it wind, solar, heat pumps whatever and then sell this back into the grid.
The large energy companies are obviously opposed to this as they want to be the sole source of POWER.
PK
In California, the law mandates being tied to the 'Grid' to qualify for the temporary, chintzy 'incentives.'
Also, I have been watching solar prices in California for 20 years. The promise of falling price has been a ruse. Prices have remained fairly static at around $25k-$30k for a 2500kw system, which, after incentives, is still a whopping $17k +. Attempting to illegally install an 'off the grid' system? Castration, child abduction, wife/significant other enslavement, large fines, prison(change of sexual preference)and public ostracizing for "irresponsible involvement in anti-social, seditious, corporate civil rights violations.
As you can see, California citizens are not highly motivated to save the planet. Why suffer all the above when you can relax, drink a 'Bud' and zone out?
But then again, I read about this guy who has a perpetual motion machine that converts hemp juice into electricity, oil, solar power, and automatic skateboards.
You can only gettim' on Rodeo Dr. in Beverly Hills. Elizabeth Taylor holds the patent. Lease only, $185,000 a day. Kool, huh?
Aside from makingh the power companies pay for the overgeneration credit in cash.....great idea.....
How about tax credits and cash incentives to add solar to existing houses, insulation, especially foam to new construction? How about a concentration to saving energy by getting rid of some of the roadblocks in local building codes?
It has been estimated that roadblocks save 8 million barrels of oil a day. Those overgeneration credits are paid to the oil companies in cash by the second of every minute. Roadblocks prevent HIV epidemics, free sex, mobile bars, television viewing by overweight dogs, night marauding by domestic cats and flea species from interbreeding.
Do your homework, boyfriend...
There was a federal agency in charge of insulating the homes of the poor, it's called weatherization. Bush's wonderful administration got rid of it.
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/beyond-the-barrel/2008/2/6/bush-budget-puts-weatherization-in-the-cold.htm...
Are you talking about those Big Government / HOA zoning laws? I know that may be an issue in states like CA, NY, and even FL but TX? Are you sure? I thought rural TX was free of all that.
Nope, some of our little towns have out of date codes that restrain using up to date materials. i.e. foam, many of the intrepert that to mean carcinogeic's and won't let builders use them. Saying that stucco is not a masonry product, limiting the use of much more insulation on exterior walls, etc. That kind of thing.
That really sucks big time. I'll need to do some research on stucco to see what's all about. I swear, government, local or federal, can be too much of a "nanny" when we all least need it.
That really sucks big time. I'll need to do some research on stucco to see what's all about. I swear, government, local or federal, can be too much of a "nanny" when we all least need it.
Tell me! Stucco is a mixture of cement and sand....sounds like masonry to mee?
Silly me. But a mixture of sand and cement? That can't be dangerous !
Try breathing sand. Then try breathing cement. Now combine those two with water and some secret sauce glues, then spray with a 500 psi air compressor attached to a 4 inch nozzle directly into your nose.
Personally, I prefer a straw/adobe mix. Add two olives and onions, ice. Shaken.
"Every farmer/homeholder should receive tax credits to put up their own Generating stations, be it wind, solar, heat pumps whatever and then sell this back into the grid."
I would add that contribution payments should be calculated at or very near the actual *current* market rate. If individuals or small businesses are allowed to compete fairly with major suppliers, the market becomes a very different animal... very much less prone to manipulation through supply extortion.
"...and then sell this back into the grid."
Well, we wish it were that simple. Most states have an energy policy that give private generators a credit on the next month's electric bill. I was grid-tied and generated an excess of energy, and all I got was a monthly credit that I could never use because I overgenerate.
This is a glitch (either intentional or unintentional) that must be fixed. It is like paying a corn farmer with corn. Makes no sense. As Gwnorth says, you should get a check.
Joe
>>ell, we wish it were that simple. Most states have an energy policy that give private generators a credit on the next month's electric bill. I was grid-tied and generated an excess of energy, and all I got was a monthly credit that I could never use because I overgenerate.
yeah that sounds like the system is set up to protect the big players.
You should by rights receive a cheque in the mail.
It's more likely that we can use all the gas and poisoned hot air blown by McCain/Palin, the Repimplican party and their supporters to power our cars. Four years of McCain/Palin and none of us may be able to afford owning a car any longer. The one in six out there with no medical insurance must now make plans to use alternate transportation to get themselves to the emergency room. Try walking, as there may no longer be any public transportation (drowned in Grover Norquist's bath tub) and taxis will be prohibitively expensive. Medical science will soon recognize a new disease called "shriveled thumb". More and more patients will be appearing in doctors' offices and emergency rooms with thumbs smelling like excrement and the size of their pinkies. If you keep your thumb up your backside long enough, that's what happens.
No! No! No! No! No!!!!!!!!!!
The problem with Wind is that its killing the birds, especially the raptors. The large turbines that one is now seeing sprout up everywhere. Most people are unaware of this. My ornithologist friend who works as a curator for the California Academy of Sciences complained of this the other day.
Was just in the Central Valley of California. They are no longer growing food there. Instead, corn everywhere for Ethanol. This is tragic.
The solution is to turn vast tracts of wasteland - such as the roofs of shopping malls and buildings everywhere into solar collectors with solar cells. This power can then plug in to electric cars. The buildings will be cooler and require less air conditioning. The solar cells will provide jobs, including average Joes and Janes who can do the installation work. Not require environmental impact statements and vast tracts of land, usually on ridges. Silicon manufacture isn't without its own environmental impact but then neither is windmill manufacture, all made from fiberglass which is dependant upon petroleum. Solar Cells everywhere. Let's save the Hawks and other migratory birds.
Casey Burns
Kingston WA
This is Bull Shit.
I drive up the Central Valley on 99 and I5. Corn is not the major crop. You would be hard proved to determine just what is by driving. This state continues to provide 30-40% of the food in the U.S. Vegies, fruit and nuts. And the corn is not the 'pigfeed' they grow in the midwest.
And wind generators are not killing raptors. Raptors are re-locating for lack of food, fool. Over-development, domestic dogs and cats have practically eradicated most small mammals up to possum size that raptors feed on in SoCal counties. Sure there are lizards, but they don't bar-b-cue well. Raptors love to attack/consume other birds. It happened in my backyard, once late last spring.
Point of fact: There are more and more police, surveillance, Homeland Security, and black unmarked NSA helicopters than birds around here, everyday. Five years ago there might have been one every few days. Those wind generators produce prison revenue, so raptors won't go near'em. I have seen raptors trying to eat the camera eyes out of the phony palmtrees around here. That's true.
Peace.
And pass the corn, hey? Where's the butter?
Observational data is subject to error. I,too, drive 99 and 5, and 12 , 88, 49, 108 and 120 as well, and every single work day too. Corn is everywhere, fields that used to support alfalfa, strawberries and many other crops now produce two corn crops a year as it is a very profitable crop for the farmer.
As 70% of the corn grown in this nation used to go to cattle feed and now does not one can understand, in part, why that grilling steak costs so much more than it once did.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
As another person posted that the whole thing about windmills killing birds has been debunked. My take is screw the birds, are they more important than people? If you were just being sarcastic (which I believe you were), nevermind, but if not then get a grip on reality & priorities.
As far as growing food for fuel (the corn you mentioned), I guess we just need to keep throwing this fact against the wall until it finally sticks...hemp produces 20 times more fuel per acre than corn, and farmed algae many times more than even hemp. Plus neither need as much water or fossil fuel created fertilizers.
"My take is screw the birds, are they more important than people?"
Certainly the life of a human is more important than the life of a bird. But how many birds is it acceptable to kill so that a human can drive (not live, but drive)?
Check your information source, Tommy, and be more skeptical. Isn't it possible this supposedly Audobon Society info comes from trolls in the oil industry protecting their interests by planting/spreading false information? Ask yourself, how fast/quick are birds compared to the rather slow moving arms of big windmills? Ask yourself this also, why do we still have cars on the road when slow PEOPLE get killed crossing them. Priorities, my friend, and the better good for the most is the appropriate paradigm.
How about removing the excise tax on Ethanol from Brazil in the meantime? And thank all of you for making these points.
Our Ethanol program is slated to help one entity, agribusiness....doesn't matter if people starve in Ethopia, they could care less.
In fact, according to Kissingers stated goal back in the 1970's, to reduce world population by 2 billion people (especially in the Middle-East for their resources ie. OIL), it is preferred to starve those in 3rd world countries...that have ANY resources America/Israel can pillage & monopolize. Ethiopia is close to the ME, isnt it?