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Now Arizona Wants to Allow Concealed Guns on Campuses
Arizona's weak gun laws could reach a new low this spring.
When the Arizona state legislature reconvenes today for the first day of the new session, two gun bills will be on the table for debate.
One bill--H2001--will allow faculty members to carry concealed weapons on campus.
The other bill--H2014--will prevent educational institutions from stopping a person from carrying a weapon with a valid permit.
In the blazing summer of 2009, Gov. Jan Brewer passed a law that allows Arizona residents to carry concealed weapons into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.
Last spring, Brewer took Arizona one step further when she signed the "Firearm Freedom Act" that permits certain weapons and ammunition manufactured in Arizona to be sold without following any federal registration or regulations.
Brewer declared: "Politicians in Washington should not attempt to get between Arizonans and their constitutional rights."
More infamously, Brewer also signed another bill last April that allows Arizonans to carry concealed guns without a permit.
In the case of the tragic Tucson shooting yesterday, alleged assailant Jared Loughner fired 31 shots from a Glock 9-millimeter, a semiautomatic pistol he purchased legally in Tucson.
Pima County Sheriff Clarent Dupnik has been a long-time critic of the bill to allow weapons on campus. In a 2008 oped for the Tucson Citizen, he recalled a fatal shooting incident on the University of Arizona campus that led to chaos. Dupnik wrote: "Enacting legislation to allow people to carry concealed weapons on school campuses is not the solution to this problem. The reality is that such actions will further endanger innocent bystanders in these situations."
Nearly a year ago, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence ranked Arizona as one of the weakest states in the country for gun control. The Brady Campaign gave Arizona only two points on a scorecard of 100.
"Since Arizona does not require Brady criminal background checks on all firearm sales, including those at gun shows, gun traffickers don't need to leave the state to funnel illegal guns to felons and gang members," said Paul Helmke, President of the Brady Campaign. "Arizona officials have done nothing in the past year to stop the flow of illegal guns within the state, including closing the loophole that allows dangerous people to walk into gun shows and buy guns without background checks.""Passing any one of these proposals would make the state even more dangerous," Hildy Saizow, Executive Director of Arizonans for Gun Safety, warned last year. "At a time when citizens are deeply concerned about budget cutbacks and jobs, this legislature is placing priorities on easing gun laws where there is little or no public support."
For state Rep. Daniel R. Patterson (D-Tucson), a gun owner and hunter, and an NRA member who earned a B-rating from the gun organization, the debate over H2001 bill to allow concealed weapons on campus "is a decision better made by regents and university presidents. They are in a much better position to decide what is safe." Patterson added: "I oppose this political meddling from the capital on campuses across the state. We need to get serious about balancing the budget and getting Arizona's economy on track."
Will Gov. Brewer and the state legislature listen now--or continue Arizona down the path of gun violence?
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162 Comments so far
Show AllUntil Attorney General Holder indicts Palin and the other FOX propagandists they and their followers, including many Arizona politicians will continue to become more empowered.
YES!!! That is the answer for progressivism!!! Jail people for speech.
No thanks. Not in my America. You can move to Venezuela, though, if you like. They do such things there...
Don't hide inciting murder behind "free speech". With freedom comes responsibility.
Cite ONE case of "inciting murder" through speech that would be prosecutable.
Just one.
Okay, I'll bite. How about Charlie Manson, who wasn't physically involved in the Tate-LaBianca murders, but sits in a jail cell to this day and will until he dies. He wasn't at the location of the murders, that was proved in court, but yet, he was convicted, wasn't he? YOU LOSE.
You don't have the right to yell fire in a crowded theater, do you REALLY think your rights are being infringed as a result? it's a matter of PUBLIC safety, and in some cases the need to protect the right to life of someone is more important than your right to spew whatever hateful, vengeful rhetoric you want. It's a little things that for some reason the tea party types and the righties have forgotten: With rights come responsibilities. Righties are like those children on the playground who would say something really shitty and then scream "freedom of speech" when someone calls them on it. Yes, they have a right to say it, but not a right to be free of the responsibility for having done so.
You can either have completely unabridged rights, or you can have a society. The two cannot survive in the same location. There is such a thing as civility, and being a citizen does demand that SOME of that occur. Just like I have to bite my tongue around people like you frequently, it would be better if YOU would realize that maybe YOU could do that in the name of civility and society, too. Compromise means that NEITHER side gets everything they want. The right has gotten so much of what they have wanted for so long that they are incapable of giving ANYTHING to anyone else. The selfishness is overwhelming. It's time you grew up and realized that it's not just YOU that lives here.
Manson got locked up for conspiracy to murder specific people (Tate). Not political at all, and not at all germaine to Palin or someone criticizing the government.
You will have to do better than that. But, you can't. Because this is not about "stopping violence", it is about restricting political speech and dissent with which you disagree.
I answered your question AS ASKED. You didn't mention political anything ANYWHERE in your comment, did you. Now that I did answer that, you can't go changing the game. Nice try, playing with right wing rules, are we? You should have warned me that you would move the goalpost once I had won the point. Bad form.
You missed the point, and now you're strawmanning. You're the loser here, especially because you're willing to forfeit a nation's rights of free speech to prevent a crime for which there are many other (actually) effective solutions/preventative measures.
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
2nd amendment only applies to "a well regulated militia"... any other use of the 2nd amendment for personal firearms is laughable.
Thanks for the link! Many of the quotes there are definitely for the individual owning personal fire arms whether the person is in connection with a militia or not...but.... ;0)...
This amendment needs to be updated as arming every citizen would not allow us to overthrow our government as the colonists did with England....keep in mind, their arms and tactics were roughly equivalent to what the government had at that time. They obviously did not foresee the time when the governments military power would vastly outstrip that of its citizens.
I don't honestly know if people should or should not own guns. If they should, under what circumstances? That argument is left to better and more knowledgeable people than me.
However, just because I don't have the answers, doesn't mean it is not easy to see that the 2nd Amendment is not applicable to today's society or government.
Well said! Any time the "left" (mostly liberals really, I think) has proposed an anti-freedom law, it's mostly been used against us.
The use of RICO and "free-speech zones" against the abortion-clinic protestors is a good example: what once protected women against psychological and even physical abuse as they approached a terrible, deeply personal point in their lives is now used to prevent politiscum from having to listen to us. Two totally different situations, but that made no difference.
Thanks, WJM, as I see you are doing most of the scoring for our team against the rightwing shill.
My guess is Think_freely is a paid rightwing shill who is paid to haunt sites like Common Dreams. CD would be doing its readers a favor to run a piece exposing this ilk. I've read diaries at Daily Kos contributed by individuals who have met these folk, and their income is provided by the rightwing.
This issue is a good litmus test. So is Michael Moore! You can bet a poster with a grudge against MM is a rightwinger!
TF will continue to post ad nauseam, or will reappear with another moniker.
Bill in Dubuque
I think that we have to realize that there is a point where speech is no longer political, but goes over the line. How is it considered political to talk about shooting your opponent? It's not political, it's dangerous, and it goes over the line, IMHO. It's a threat, and even if it's meant as a joke, there are those who will see it as a sincere request.
Just like yelling fire, you can't even make a joke at an airport security location without being taken VERY seriously. That has been going on for how many DECADES, now? This is a matter of public discourse, and it's gotten so coarse over the last decade, especially, that even implied murder seems acceptable. Lock and Load is NOT a surveyors term, is it? And what EXACTLY is it that surveyors have to reload?
When those who are running to be or are already elected to leadership positions, then they have a responsibility to ACT like responsible citizens, do they not? How is calling for people to take up arms against their fellow citizens and the other candidate for a political disagreement acting responsibly? They want to talk about personal responsibility, but when it's THEY who SHOULD be doing so, they seem to revert right to a junior high mentality.
If freedom of speech is to be absolute, then there can be NO limits on any of it. I should be able to come up to you and threaten your life with as much anger and violence as I can muster, I should be able to threaten your family, your home, and all your possessions. I should be able to go around saying whatever I want, no matter how it might put law enforcement into a tizzy, because it's JUST words. But you now, that won't be MUCH of a society, will it?
With rights come the responsibility of knowing what NOT to say. That is called maturity, and that is what the right seems to forget. The more they scream about rights, the less they pay ANY attention to their own responsibilities. And one of those is to NOT be part of the problem, NOT to stir things up without cause, and especially, NOT to LIE. I don't really think that the founding fathers would be proud of a country whose "news" goes to court to protect their "right" to lie. If that was what they wanted, our court systems wouldn't demand an oath to tell the truth, would they?
People on the left go to jail or prison, or are subject to searches and seizures all the time for merely speaking out _against_ murder. Specifically that of US wars and foreign policy. Apporpriate applicable laws are thought up as needed.
Again, cite ONE case of politicians using speech to "promote violence".
Just one.
I would certainly consider Sarah Palin to be a politician, and she has done it more than once, in fact, damn near every time the woman opens her mouth. Or Michelle Bachmann, who uses the same kind of firearms references with most of her blathering as well. It's not that hard to continue, but I'm pretty sure that all it would take is a quick glance through some recent headlines to find a plethora of them. All you have to do is look.
Colin Powells speech at the UN wherein he presented fabricated evidence to encourage the world to make war on Iraq.
Any speech where a US POlitician calls for the country to make war on another or to assassinate foreign leaders.
The Congress of the United states of America meeting in unison to call for the overthrow of the Government of Iran.
A lot of people would also consider Pat Robertson to be a political leader of sorts, as he did mount a VERY unsuccessful campaign for president, and continues to speak out, though miserably on political issues. He also speaks to Lord only knows how many people every day, telling them what to think. He has called for the deaths of Supreme court judges, and wants us to assassinate Hugo Chavez.
And who was it in congress who recently called for us to assassinate Julian Assange? The list goes on just off the top of my head.
So cross-hairs on a map, with her name on the district doesn't count?
http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434
Or maybe, “Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office” and invited his supporters to “shoot a fully automatic M-16 with Jesse Kelly.”
But your probably right, "second amendment remedies," don't promote violence at all.
Truly ironic that someone with the screen name Think_Freely, is so inept at free thought...
Oh my God! Calling for "removal from office" of a politician before an election is now "incitement to murder" in progressive-land?
And you wonder why progressives continue to lose elections in the US.
Other examples of right wing violence speech:
A pro life group sends a letter to supporters stating that "This will have abortion doctors shaking in their blood soaked boots".
What about Bill O'riely (who by the way on his show yesterday stated that he doesn't engage in the kind of talk that Beck, Limbaugh, Coulter, et.al. do)who came up with "Tiller the baby killer".
The bottom line is that this type of retoric is designed to cause an emotional response. The people who deal in this kind of violent retoric know before hand that it could cause violence but their goal is to emotionally charge their base and get them angry and focussed so they are driven to be activists soldiers and march to show up at the poles. Every once in a while it contributes to a loose cannon decision that results in violence. But when there is power at stake, it is likely just regarded as colatoral damage.
OK, Think_Freely, your challenge has been met.
I am replying to your "Promoting violence" challenge not if it is prosecutable... that is a different world where the War Machine rules.
Every time politicians say "everything is on the table" in the context of threats of War they are acting as criminals.
It has happened more than once by politicians.
And how about this from:
http://www.serendipity.li/cda/
open_letter_to_julia_gillard.htm
6 December 2010
Dear Prime Minister,
We note with concern the increasingly violent rhetoric directed towards Julian Assange of WikiLeaks.
“We should treat Mr Assange the same way as other high-value terrorist targets: Kill him,” writes conservative columnist Jeffrey T Kuhner in the Washington Times.
William Kristol, former chief of staff to vice president Dan Quayle, asks, “Why can’t we use our various assets to harass, snatch or neutralize Julian Assange and his collaborators, wherever they are?”
“Why isn’t Julian Assange dead?” writes the prominent US pundit Jonah Goldberg.
“The CIA should have already killed Julian Assange,” says John Hawkins on the Right Wing News site.
Sarah Palin, a likely presidential candidate, compares Assange to an Al Qaeda leader; Rick Santorum, former Pennsylvania senator and potential presidential contender, accuses Assange of “terrorism”.
And so on and so forth.
Such calls cannot be dismissed as bluster. Over the last decade, we have seen the normalisation of extrajudicial measures once unthinkable, from ‘extraordinary rendition’ (kidnapping) to ‘enhanced interrogation’ (torture).
In that context, we now have grave concerns for Mr Assange’s wellbeing.
Irrespective of the political controversies surrounding WikiLeaks, Mr Assange remains entitled to conduct his affairs in safety, and to receive procedural fairness in any legal proceedings against him.
As is well known, Mr Assange is an Australian citizen.
We therefore call upon you to condemn, on behalf of the Australian Government, calls for physical harm to be inflicted upon Mr Assange, and to state publicly that you will ensure Mr Assange receives the rights and protections to which he is entitled, irrespective of whether the unlawful threats against him come from individuals or states.
We urge you to confirm publicly Australia’s commitment to freedom of political communication; to refrain from cancelling Mr Assange's passport, in the absence of clear proof that such a step is warranted; to provide assistance and advocacy to Mr Assange; and do everything in your power to ensure that any legal proceedings taken against him comply fully with the principles of law and procedural fairness.
A statement by you to this effect should not be controversial — it is a simple commitment to democratic principles and the rule of law.
We believe this case represents something of a watershed, with implications that extend beyond Mr Assange and WikiLeaks. In many parts of the globe, death threats routinely silence those who would publish or disseminate controversial material. If these incitements to violence against Mr Assange, a recipient of Amnesty International’s Media Award, are allowed to stand, a disturbing new precedent will have been established in the English-speaking world.
In this crucial time, a strong statement by you and your Government can make an important difference.
We look forward to your response.
How about these?
Ronald Reagan: "My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes." (he nearly touched off WW III with that little gem...)
George W. Bush: "You are either with us, or with the terrorists."
“Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders?” asked Sarah Palin, in regard to Julian Assange.
Bob Beckel, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and current Fox News contributor, said on air: “If the U.S. pursues him as it has Osama bin Laden, Assange is safe for years to come. The way to deal with this is pretty simple. We’ve got Special Forces. A dead man can’t leak stuff. This guy’s a traitor, he’s treasonous, and he’s broken every law of the United States. The guy ought to be…and I’m not for the death penalty, so if I’m not for the death penalty, there’s only one way to do it: illegally shoot the sonofabitch."
Carl Paladino, during the New York Senate race. Things headed downhill when the real estate developer threatened to "clean out Albany with a baseball bat."
Linda McMahon and her husband made their fortune on World Wrestling Entertainment, which traffics in steroids, dirty language, sex and violence — and markets it all to children. McMahon was running against Attorney General Richard Blumenthal. "I'd venture to say we're going to lay the smackdown on him in November."
Do you really want me to continue?
Non Serviam - I will not serve.
George W Bush, Wanting Saddam Hussein "Dead or alive". Obama ordering the targeted killing of the American Cleric Anwar al_Awlaki. (Murder without a trial), and Bob Beckel saying of Julian Assange, "illegally shot the son of a bitch". ( Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d36xEvVnF2I )
But you're right, none would be prosecutable.
That may be true, dmgreenaz, but bear in mind that if you can slap others down, you can be slapped down yourself. That's something you might wish to think about.
See AETA. A law passed by your own Government which criminalizes speech.
See Macarthyism.
You do not have Free speech in America. There are all manner of laws passed by your Government that makes certain types of speech ILLEGAL.
See The Sedition act of 1917 which is STILL an active law and which resulted in Eugene Debs being sent to prison for speaking up against US Involvement of WW1.
It seems your Government is very afraid of certain TYPES of speech and those the types that do not support The Coporate Warfare state.
You SUPPORT the Sedition Act of 1917? Let me guess, you are a "progressive"! (Of course, so was Woodrow Wilson, when he wasn't chairing Klan meetings...)
Lovely right wing response. How about if you actually READ what he posted before you snot off at him. There is NO support of the 1917 law, only a mention of it still being an active law in this country. Why can't right wingers READ? Oh yeah, that's right, there is no reason for you to, since you REFUSE TO LEARN.
You obviously have a reading comprehension problem. I can not help you with that. Go ask your gun to explain it it you as it seems that all you understand.
Arizona's economy has tanked because it is addicted to home-building. The Republicans have found that if they focus on such red-herrings as "illegals" and "gun rights" they can get elected. Simple as that.
It just wouldn't be any fun to take on the fact that the state economy only works when people are building unlimited numbers of houses in a place with a finite amount of water. (Houses built by the labor of many "illegals".)
Excellent point, dmgreenaz.
Jail Fox News for speech? What is next? That fact that I quote Chairman Mao and his red book from time to time, does that make me a criminal or the fact I read a biography of Mao, does that me guilty of sedition?
hey raydelcamino, Minister Joseph Goebbels called, he told me to tell you to stop stealing his ideas!
Concealed guns did not do much good at the Tucson shooting.
Not a single concealed gun was drawn in defense of Gifford, probably because she was a liberal.
You are correct in that there were no people with concealed weapons around her other than the shooter. However someone in the store next door heard shooting and came out with his gun to help, but the unarmed bystanders had tackled the shooter first. You will hear it argued that if someone had had a gun, it would have ended before others died.
That is a valid point. If more people carried guns, then those using them inappropriately could be stopped by gunfire. However, I think a lot of us think the cowboy shoot-em-ups were better left to the black and white western movies. One shooter is bad enough, who wants to be in the middle of a gun battle?
It's not a valid point. There ARE examples of situations where people had guns and pulled them out at the point of trouble. And what happened more often than not is that innocent people get shot by those "good Samaritans" and the disaster was compounded.
It's a real shame that we are now a society where people feel the need to carry a gun wherever they go. I guess I'll be one of those cashing it in early, because I will NOT carry a gun, nor will I call for the deaths of people who I hold political disagreements with. I may call for their prosecution, or their jailing, but not their deaths. That is NOT acceptable in an actual SOCIETY, which I presume we are still at least TRYING to be. But I guess I'm not so sure about that, anymore.
Sorry for the duplicate...
The greater the likelihood of people in a crowd being armed, the greater the likelihood the cops will shoot first and ask questions later.
In such a situation, assuming an armed citizen had pulled a gun to use against the perpetrator it more then a little likely said citizen becomes an INSTANT suspect and any arriving police officers would turn their arsenal on him.
Recently the police used a flash grenade to enter the home of a citizen wherein they thought a supsect holed up. This set off a fire which killed a person living there. The person they were after was not at the residence.
The use of Police violence against Citizens has accelerated and the courts side with the Police. Citizens carrying concealed weapons will over time, make such violence more commonplace contrary to what some claim.
Translation:
"The police are thugs, so we should disarm the citizens."
Let me guess: You are a "progressive".
Back to the future we go as The Old Wild, Wild West appears to have replaced the current state called Arizona.
Actually, not a concealed gun was drawn in her defense because the people LISTENING to her were liberals, and such people do not carry guns.
Too bad for her, had she been speaking to conservatives, she would probably be a lot better off today.
It's not a liberal or conservative thing. Most people do not carry weapons on their person. The glove compartment is another matter. Do we want a country where everyone is packing heat like it's a cell phone? Be careful what you wish for, Arizona.
Obviously, there weren't any at this meeting...
Obviously (free thinker's favorite word) there was another young man with a concealed gun in the vicinity who pulled out his gun but was aiming at the wrong person. Thankfully, the other bystanders shouted at him not to shoot since the actual shooter had just been restrained by ordinary citizens. Progressives and liberals had restrained the shooter with their bare hands. In fact, it was a wounded liberal woman who knocked the clip from Loughner's hands before he could reload. Gutless scum like free_stinker would have been too scared to do that. Oh, I'm sorry, was I too harsh.
The point of my statement was to undermine the pro-gun rhetoric that concealed-carry laws PREVENT crime. No-one pulled a concealed gun (though I am sure there were plenty in attendance) to stop the shooter, so what good are concealed-carry laws if they do absolutely nothing? The horror in Arizona exposes the lunacy of the notion, popular among Republicans, that a heavily armed populace can stop a deranged gunman.
Actually, concealed-carry laws did help the shooter as he got within shooting range before pulling his gun.
The NRA will twist itself into knots worming its way out of this.
Well of course I am "sure" because of your authoritative 'There are plenty of liberals and progressives that carry concealed firearms. I know many of them who frequent the local range. I also know socialists who do the same.'
And you didn't mention all the conservatives that you know to carry concealed.
Given numbers like that, how can you be so sure that there were NONE in attendance? After all, it only takes one "concerned citizen" and one bullet to stop (or start) a slaughter.
In August 2009, at another one of Gifford's meet-and-greet events at a supermarket, a man with a "Don't Tread on Me" banner dropped a loaded, concealed handgun to the floor during an angry debate, spurring Giffords' staff to call police to the event. So we definitely know concealed guns were in attendance at two of her events. http://tinyurl.com/krk9wh
While I agree that stronger gun control laws are needed, in order to keep the Jared Lee Loughners of this society from getting access to firearms, and I'm not a fan of firearms being in civilian hands generally, because I don't think they belong, I'm willing to make exceptions for:'
A) People who just collect guns and nothing more
B) People who use their guns to go shooting at the range for sport.
C) Although I oppose hunting and killing animals for sport, or to use their fur for hats, etc., I'm also willing to make exceptions for people who either need to hunt for food when the money runs low, or who live way out in the sticks and have no choice but to go out and shoot a deer or whatever for food.
How? Surely, with the element of suprise on his side, the gunman would at least gotten his shot off at the congressperson, and one or two more, then in the confusion of the return fire, several others would have been killed.
Real firefights are nothing like those cowboy-thugs in an old western movie.
But the real question is, who, for cring out loud, want to live is a society where we all must be in so much fear that we must carry guns to protecy ourselves from our own fellow citizens? Such a society is insane!
I'm with you on all points.
"But the real question is, who, for cring out loud, want to live is a society where we all must be in so much fear that we must carry guns to protecy ourselves from our own fellow citizens?"
Well, most Arizonans, for one. As do an increasing number of Americans.
Scared people + guns. It's easy math.
"Such a society is insane!"
Agreed, and we are.