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Spanish Judge Opens Probe into Guantanamo Torture
MADRID - A Spanish judge on Wednesday opened an investigation into an alleged "systematic programme" of torture at the US Guantanamo Bay detention camp, following accusations by four former prisoners.
(photo: El País) Judge Baltasar Garzon will probe the "perpetrators, the instigators, the necessary collaborators and accomplices" to crimes of torture at the prison at the US naval base in southern Cuba, he said in his ruling, a copy of which was seen by AFP.
The judge based his decision on statements by Hamed Abderrahman Ahmed, known as the "Spanish Taliban" and three other former Guantanamo detainees -- a Moroccan, a Palestinian and a Libyan.
Garzon said that documents declassified by the US administration and carried by US media "have revealed what was previously a suspicion: the existence of an authorised and systematic programme of torture and mistreatment of persons deprived of their freedom" that flouts international conventions.
This points to "the possible existence of concerted actions by the US administration for the execution of a multitude of crimes of torture against persons deprived of their freedom in Guantanamo and other prisons including that of Bagram" in Afghanistan.
The four former Guantanamo detainees alleged they were held in cramped cells and suffered beatings and other physical and mental mistreatment.
The Palestinian, Jamiel Abdelatif al Banna, said he suffered "blows to the head that caused him to lose consciousness, was detained in an underground place without light for three weeks and deprived of food and sleep."
The decision by Garzon, known around the world for ordering the arrest of former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet in London in 1998, was unrelated to another investigation by the judge into six officials of the former US administration of George W. Bush over alleged torture at Guantanamo Bay.
Prosecutors this month issued an official request to the judge to drop that probe, arguing that the complaint targets officials who did not have the power to make decisions but who simply "drafted non-binding judicial reports."
Spain since 2005 has assumed the principle of universal jurisdiction in alleged cases of crimes against humanity, genocide, and terrorism. But it can only proceed when any such cases of the alleged crimes are not already subject to a legal procedure in the country involved.
Several human rights groups have asked judges in different countries to indict Bush administration officials over the camp, which US President Barack Obama has vowed to close by January 2010.
More than 800 detainees have been held at the US military prison since 2002.
Some 240 people are still there. About 60 of them have been deemed eligible for release, but the Obama administration is struggling to arrange their transfer to a third country.
The Bush administration had charged about 20 of the detainees on terror-related charges, including two prisoners arrested when they were still teenagers.
- Posted in
87 Comments so far
Show AllTruly astounding that we can only find justice for our own crimes in a Spanish court...enough to bring a tear to ones eye. America is long gone...I no longer have any idea what has taken over.
I believe "what has taken over" is that there was enough of a political void in 2000 for one Richard B. Cheney to step into the void and drive this country into a place that can only be comprehended from his narrow world view where US power and elite economic interests trumped all so that torture, murder and manufactured wars were all on the table. It may be that only foreign judicial / legislative systems are out of the reach of the Rove / Cheney take no prisoners response to any one in the way of their power grab.
And what helped create that void? Clinton's impeachment. I believe that was just part of the overall neocon plan:
1) Create a void by trumping up impeachment,
2) Shoehorn in a figurehead aka Bush,
3) Position Cheney for power,
4) Create the crisis of 911 as the basis for neocon agenda
All so true...and there is more to view....if you have not read the following article, prepare to have your head blown away. 9/11.....Iraq, oil, Saddam, Silverstein, Afghanistan et al (icing on the cake)....persuse the real motive. If there's no link to part 2, let me know...I'll post it too...long read, but worth the time.
http://www.israelshamir.net/Contributors/Collateral_Damage_911.pdf
The Spanish obviously recognize a Military Dictatorship when they see it.
Our Republic died with Ronnie Ray Gun.
angryoldman, hello,
aom, I went to the links you suggest. Was scoping them a bit and was surprised to see an article by IS re Noam Chomsky & 9-11. IS quickly stated he thought the Mossad played no role in this event. It surprised me honestly that this is your pov, if it is.
Certainly Cheney/PNAC elements, but I figure the Mossad for dead certain as players also. PNAC ='d Israel after all.
Cordially, JCotton.
At this point, I still believe the Mossad played a role in conjunction with our CIA. But, until there is a full and independent investigation, all is speculation.
Did not read that particular article, but I'll check it out. I usually see Chomsky as a gatekeeper..like Moyers, Goodman, Zinn et al.....
Please post a link to the article of which you speak...
angryoldman, good morning-
I found the article yesterday checking out Israel Shamir per your suggestion. I thought you'd have seen it since you pointed me that way, but he had many.
I think if you google 'chomsky israel shamir' it'd be there...
I agree w/ your 1st sentence, except maybe rather than the CIA, it was a cell of intel operatives beholden and known to just a few-like Cheney w/ his "personal" assassination squad. Wheels within wheels...
Possible, azj,. but who really knows. As with JFK, the obfuscation and disinfo is rampant. I'll google that and see what I come up with.
Above all and most important is to continue to press for a re-opening of the investigation. Of course, martial law, via the concocted swine flu, would bring a halt to just about everything. Keep the people in fear...and THEY are the masters at that tactic.
aom-
Fort Detrick?
A lot of people were involved planting the charges, standing NORAD down, setting 9-11 up. I estimate it would have taken about 50 operatives vertically and horizontally.
Just one. We need just one. To see the Light and turn towards it. Mayhap they are disappeared....I remember The Pentagon Papers though....just one person, "yes, I did this or that, the cat would be out of the bag, and a Lion it would be.
I found that article and here's a comment I sent to an email friend about the same......(I have no, problem accepting his thesis behind the 9/11 motives and disagreeing with him over Chomsky)
BTW, have you read "Crossing the Rubicon" Ruppert....They haunted that poor man until he finally gave up and said enough. Who can blame him, eh?
His article in defense of Chomsky leaves me a bit cold. Although I am not a Barrett fan....I thinks he's a bit intense and unyielding...I find Shamir's stance to be more philosophically based than factually based....as if Chomsky can do no wrong..Maybe this is a fellow intellects license. His motive scenario for 9/11 is loaded with detail and documentation. Not so, his siding with Chomsky. The US/CIA HAD to be involved in the 9/11 fiasco. Who else would have access to the weapons, knowledge and circumstance to pull this off? And who else but the Mossad has the motive and working knowledge, along with a history of camaraderie with the CIA? Even if one does not totally accept their complicity, the possibility should be considered and not summarily dismissed because some Zionist intellectual refuses to even look at the feasibility.
Ayisyen: Sakapfet?! Ou we kisa neg yo fe, papa? An nou espere ke yo pap fe sa anko. Violans se bullshit wi, neg.
Takiteasy lakay!
Let the inquisition begin...!
In the name of ever-loving justice, thank you Judge Garzon!
Thank God somebody out there has a sense of justice!
"Spain since 2005 has assumed the principle of universal jurisdiction in alleged cases of crimes against humanity, genocide, and terrorism. But it can only proceed when any such cases of the alleged crimes are not already subject to a legal procedure in the country involved."
So proceed away already! We're not prosecuting the crimes here, and clearly have no intention to, so Spain needs to make its move. Go, Judge Garzon! The ball's in your court. Obama, Holder & Co. refuse to even play. Show us what justice means, because we're clearly too distracted and bored to be bothered worrying about it.
Kissinger is still on the loose...
-30-
Why is it that Judge Baltasar Garzon has not opened a probe or issued arrest warrants for Castro, Chavez, Ortega, Than Shwe, Hu Jintao, Qaddafi, Ayman al-Zawahri, bin Laden, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei or Putin just to name a few on the (communist, socialist, moslem, left)? The International Criminal Court in the Hague only issued an arrest warrant for al-Bashir because they were forced to, but no attempt has been made to arrest him nor will there ever be an attempt.
The crimes of all of the above are easily almost equal to or much greater than bushes. Why have the above been given a pass on their crimes? Think maybe the good judge is a joke with a leftist agenda?
No, I'm not a ringer just a realist - WHAT IS GOOD FOR ONE SIDE IS GOOD FOR THE OTHER, you can not condemn one side for their views or actions while your side does exactly the same and you say nothing. It's either that or you expose yourself for the hypocrite you are.
I have no idea who snowwolf is and I never worked for the DOD, I just despise and loathe hypocrites.
Think maybe the good judge is a joke with a leftist agenda?
___________________________________________________________
Either that, or a man of commendable rectitude, probity, courage, and integrity.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Perhaps more is expected from the U.S. with it's Holier than Thou attitude for the last two centuries. Kind of like when someone "says" their a Christian; more is expected of them. Also, we need to clean up our own backyard BEFORE we point fingers at anybody else! The U.S. has ALWAYS blamed others for the world's problems rather than look at the part they play in them. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Rice in prison would be a good start to giving us some kind of moral highground. Also, I have to agree, that the "legal" counsel that gave an "opinion" that it might be alright to commit crimes against humanity, is not to blame for the DECISION to actually DO it! But, in the same light, those agents and soldiers who were "just following orders" are also culpable, just like the Nazis who were also "just following orders".
Please provide a link to reliable neutral sources with information pertaining to Hugo Chavez's war crimes?
Thank you.
The article has nothing to do with war crimes but takes up the issue of possible torture and abuse in prison. If you thought for a moment you would realize Venezuela has not been at war with any other country since Chaves has been president, thus he can not be guilty of war crimes directly. But his admitted aid to FARC could mean he could be indirectly guilty of aiding and abetting in the committing of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by FARC.
In December 2002, Raúl Díaz, an engineering student, joined thousands of people in peaceful protests against the Venezuelan government.
For most of his time in jail, Díaz has been confined to a tiny, poorly ventilated cell, and has only been allowed to see sunlight for one hour each week. He has suffered from serious bacterial infections in his ears due to inadequate medical treatment. The Inter-American Court of Human Rights issued a provisional order asking that he be given proper medical assistance, but he was not permitted to see a doctor until a full eleven months later.
http://www.tellchavez.com/en/learn_more.shtml
"What is happening in Venezuela today under President Hugo Chavez is an outrageous travesty of justice and human rights, which goes on unrecognized underneath the rhetoric of revolution," said Canadian lawyer Robert Amsterdam, international defense counsel for political prisoner Eligio Cedeno. "There is no excuse or plausible defense for how Chavez is treating his own citizens, and no supporter, no matter how loyal or ardent, can come forward to explain why these individuals have been jailed and deprived of their rights.
http://news.aol.com/article/venezuelan-president-hugo-chavez
/432972?icid=sphere_searchsphere_news
The most shocking news came on Thursday, March 19, as Chief Prosecutor Katiuska Plaza announced an arrest warrant for the Mayor of Maracaibo Manuel Rosales under invented corruption charges. Days earlier, Chávez threatened to jail other opposition elected officials in Zulia, such as Pablo Pérez, and in Carabobo, with Governor Henrique Salas Feo. There are serious fears of arrest for the current Mayor of Caracas, Antonio Ledezma, as well as the former Mayor of Chacao, Leopoldo López, both of whom are planning to appeal before the Inter-American Court on Human Rights next week.
The message is clear: the Chávez government believes it has won impunity to act above the law, paid for with political capital won by majority vote.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-amsterdam
/venezuelas-next-generatio_b_177684.html
A group of Venezuelan lawyers filed on Wednesday a complaint against President Hugo Chávez before the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC). The lawyers accused Venezuela's leader of crimes against humankind for the violation of human rights of political and common prisoners in the country.
http://english.eluniversal.com/2008/12/17/
en_pol_esp_complaint-against-ch_17A2170563.shtml
Larry Klayman, founder of the government watchdog group Freedom Watch, filed a class action lawsuit against Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
According to lead plaintiff Guanipa he witnessed live ammunition fired at anti-Chavez protesters, including women and children, during a peaceful march in Caracas. Many reporters who reported on such cases later were shot, beaten or arrested, the legal complaint claims.
http://law.taragana.net/archive/
hugo-chavez-hit-with-class-action-lawsuit-for-
supporting-crimes-against-humanity/
Do you in your wildest of wildest fantasies really honestly believe Chavez would allow pictures of prisoner abuse in his jails to be (like the US) published?
"Accusations are NOT proof"
Really, I remember reading a whole host of accusations against the US that those that post here believed like they came from the mouth of god, many proved to be false, some true.
Now when these accusations against Chavez (that I have listed) go to court and are proven TRUE, I will hold you to your statement "If you can provide proof on this site that Chavez has had anyone tortured, I will eat him."
Some how I have a feeling that when the courts find Chavez guilty you will NOT believe them and you will never eat him!!
I followed your link (www.tellchavez.com) to a group called The Human Rights Foundation.
The President of HRF is Thor Halvorssen.
According to the The New York Times:
"Halvorssen was born in Venezuela into privilege and is a descendant of Venezuela's first two presidents Cristobal Mendoza and Simon Bolivar through his maternal lineage: Mendoza. On his father's side he is the grandson of Oestein Halvorssen, the Norwegian king’s consul who "built a family dynasty as the Venezuelan representative for corporations including Dunlop and Ericsson."
** Sounds to me like a rich guy pissed that Chavez is empowering the poor.
Here's more:
In 1999, Halvorssen became the first executive director and chief executive officer of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), the national campus-focused civil liberties organization.[14] According to The Dartmouth Review, FIRE was conceived as an "equal opportunity" antidote to the influential American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) considered to be overly partisan.
** Damn that partisan ACLU heroically defending the Constitution for every American.
This is a title of an article Thor Halvorssen wrote in the conservative Weekly Standard:
The Venezuelan strongman tries to crackdown on his country's journalists while Jack Kemp shills for him in America.
** Would this be the Venezuelan media run by Chavez's opposition which advocated his overthrow?
** C'mon Wolf, you gotta get better material than this!
Here's more on Thor Halvorssen President of HRF:
In a 2003 article in the Weekly Standard he writes the claim of a Venezuelan defector that Chavez had links to Al-Qaeda and $1 million in cash was transferred in the deal.
Yes, and Saddam Hussein had links to Al-Qaeda too!
What a kook!
Where's the evidence?
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/346jorji.asp
I admit I did not dig into the Human Rights Foundation, the name sounded like it was linked to amnesty international and other human rights groups. I purposefully stayed away from right wing and obvious neo- con sites, this one slipped pass me. But I listed 5 sites including the huffingtonpost, which is just short of moveon.org in being as far left as you can get. Did you find anything wrong with the other sites? If not your last sentence is a bit more than disingenuous.
Ok so I attacked the darling of the left and progressives Mr. Chavez, but from everything I've read (including left wing propaganda) and from what people I know in Venezuela (none of whom belong to the elite class) have told me, Chavez is turning from a benevolent president to an autocratic human rights violating dictator. Face it, it happens, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Maybe you can answer this, so far all the responses to my original post have personally attacked me (yet I have not personally attacked anyone or called anyone vile names), have sided 100% with Chavez (whom I doubt anyone posting here has lived in Venezuela under him or even met and talked to him), but NO ONE has answered my original post, "The crimes of all of the above are easily almost equal to or much greater than bushes. Why have the above been given a pass on their crimes?"
Could the answer be a case of massive hypocrisy on the part of the left and progressives?
I think wolf123 used to go by "snowwolf" and has worked as a contractor in the military or for the DOD. Either way, he is ultra-conservative and you will not get anywhere arguing with him.
He is baaaaaack! I thought snowwolf finally gave up his moronic rants!
You have to kill about a million people to equal the crimes of Bush et. al.
Sounds like the Chavez cases are being adjudicated unlike in the USA and why has O still not joined the ICC as Chavez has.
And while we are on the subject --- Why are people stating that it is legally difficult to hold people accountable for waterboarding use and memos when the USA hung or gave hard time to Japanese for waterboarding?
Look up Putin, Afghanistan, and Chetnia. If it only takes a million to equal the crimes of Bush et. al. Putin is way, way out in front.
Also the US never beheaded any Japanese for waterboarding. We hung a few Japanese for not only waterboarding but also and including for other war crimes against legitimate POW's. Terrorists are not POW's, if you read the Geneva Conventions terrorists are basically the equivalent of mercenaries and mercenaries have no rights under the Geneva Conventions.
Article 47.-Mercenaries.
Putin was not The leader of Russia when Afghanistan invaded. He was a minor member of the KGB who did not even see service in Afghanistan. Indeed through the bulk of the Afghani war he was stationed in East Germany.
Chechnya is a territory belonging to Russia. It is not a foreign country. There were not a million Chechnyans killed. It is estimated 100,000 killed in the two civil wars in Chechyna, far less then died in Americas own civil war.
Is Abraham Lincoln a war criminal?
Beheading is not more "vile" then is death by hanging. Indeed beheading was once reserved for heads of state because it was deemed a more "Noble Way" to die then was death by hanging.
Terrorists are NOT mercenaries. The Germans claimed that the French resistance members were "terrorists" Those resistance members had the RIGHT to resist the occupation of France which is why so many GERMANS were executed or imprisoned after the war for executing and torturing resistance fighters in countries like France, Yugoslavia, Poland, Russia and italy.
The USA is IN Iraq and is IN Afghanistan. Not Vice versa. Therefore those resisting the US Occupation of their lands HAVE THAT RIGHT just as Americans would have the right to resist the Chinese should China invade and occupy the USA. The UN recognizes the right of a population to RESIST foreign occupation under the Geneva Conventions and the various hague Conventions.
Putin was an aid to Youri Andropov during the Afghan war (you don't need to be in Afghanistan to kill Afghans), Putin assisted Andropov in formulating the KGB response to the Afghan resistance. Like putting bombs in dolls and dropping them over Afghanistan. Over 100,000 Chechnyans died in Grozny when the Russians flattened the city. Depending on what site you google any where from 300,000 to 500,000 Chechnyans died in the 2 wars. Just where did bush kill a million people? That's right you keep quoting that discredited Lancet report.
http://jarrarsupariver.blogspot.com/2008/01/lancet-study-farce-and-iraq-model.html
Just when did I say Beheading is more "vile" then is death by hanging? Could you please point to exactly where I said that.
If you read the Geneva conventions terrorists fit the description of mercenaries, resistance fighters do not. Just what moslem country were we illegally occupying prior to 9/11 that supposedly gave the terrorists the right to kill over 3,000 people in America?
"Is Abraham Lincoln a war criminal?"
Actually if the Geneva Conventions were around then he would be. Lincoln did nothing to stop Shermans march to the sea and Sherman violated virtually every part of the Geneva Conventions and that's just one violation, there were many more.
I still think Abraham Lincoln was one of if not the greatest presidents the US has ever had.
Putin was in Berlin from 1985 through to the end of the Afghan war. Prior to that he was base din Moscow.Please give your evidence of the things you claim. And no, not those provided by Reagan who was a liar and who cited a pakistani training film as evidence that Russians were strafing Villagers.
Where is ANY evidence of the rest of your claims ? The Lancet study was peer reviewed unlike your BLOG. The methodology used by the lancet has been used in a number of Countries including Rwanda. Oddly your blog does not dispute the methodolgy when it used to "prove" how many people Saddam killed.
It pretty well the same methods. I trust the lancet over your blog. Indeed your sources all seem a bit, tainted. The BLOG you site has all the appearance of being run by your PENTAGON. A joke in other words. Your own Pentagon even boasted that it was doing such. That is ordering their troops to post "good news stories " as blogs and or hire people to do the same.
<>If you read the Geneva conventions terrorists fit the description of mercenaries, resistance fighters do not. Just what moslem country were we illegally occupying prior to 9/11 that supposedly gave the terrorists the right to kill over 3,000 people in America?
No they do not Merceneraies work for MONEY they are hired by someone to fight and fight nerely for a paycheque. The only mercenaries I know of In Iraq and Afghanistan are those hired by the Governmnet of the United States of America.
>>Just what moslem country were we illegally occupying prior to 9/11 that supposedly gave the terrorists the right to kill over 3,000 people in America?
No one gave the RIGHT to terrorists attacking America on 9/.11> Now even if you believe that Conspiracy theory, said terrorists did not come from Iraq. Nor were they the Taliban. If you believe that Conspiracy Theory which your governmnet outlined, that of 19 people living in caves using Box cutters to hijack aircraft and then fly them across America unmolested, even THAT rather far fetched scenario had the bulk of the hijackers coming from Saudi Arabia.
So why was iraq invaded again? Please do not pull up a blog detailing all of Saddams Nuclear weapons, his fleet of UAVS ready to drop anthrax on New York City or all those ties to Al Qaeda your Government cited.
You already look foolish enough.
Sioux Rose
Wolf: Chavez in the same sentence as Bush? Where do you get your "news" and "views"?
Sioux Rose, Perhaps you can explain something for me. What is it with these clowns?
Whether it is talk show stars accusing flu sufferers in Mexico of being bio-weapon terrorists, or this fool who is wondering why Europeans might want to prosecute the people that kidnapped, tortured and killed their citizens, as an astrologer, what planet would you have to be on to be so divorced from reality?
Sioux Rose
JLOCKE: The chart is like a kaleidescope and each planet has a specific function within its complex context. Neptune is the planet of illusion, deception, and escapist behaviors. It happens to "rule" the sign of Pisces, and we are at the END of the Piscean Age. In mythology Pisces is governed by Neptune, the 'god' of the sea kingdom which is probably the origin of all the fossil fuels which are approaching their end phase in parallel with the conclusion of this age.
Pisces' greatest deception is projection. Notice how Bush, master of the art, ranted about evil doers and terrorists when his own methods qualified considerably as both. The only way to overcome the hatred and enmity from centuries of groups conditioned to oppose groups is by transcending the very basis for these divisions, whether they are based on ethnicity, religion, gender, race, or income status. Part of that process requires a new model or paradigm, and I believe the circle is a fitting one for its "powers of inclusion." Change begins with a new understanding, and this is one of many routes to discovering it. Clearly the belief structures of yesterday only lead to the same redundant deadly outcomes.
Neptune rules sleep, dreams, and addictions, as well as hospitals, jails and other institutions of healing/retreat. Note the importance or prominence of these items in today's economy! And finally--guess who's Pisces? Bin Laden, Ralph Nader, the state of Florida (its fishy business threw the 2000 election), Israel's Sharon, and senator Feingold. I think it's interesting that each of these personalities has been so influential at this time.
This is an extremely divisive move for the world. The United States no longer supports a world court or "universal jurisdiction". Conviction of any U.S. officials involved would lead to an extradition argument. The U.S. in refusing will be withdrawing from international law and order leaving it standing alone. Who's going to help? Canada? No military power! The E.U.? Each nation is either yelling for justice or hiding from it. South America? With torturers trained in the U.S.? Time to join the civilized. A cover-up trial at home would be far better than the international confrontation needed to protect home grown war criminals! Remember the peculiar idea that no one is responsible for legal advice leading to crime, not the lawyer and not the President (Buck stops Here) is an U.S. idea only applicable in U.S. courts.
Thank you Judge Garzon for your courage and dedication to the rule of law!
Please don't get on any planes and also check the brake lining of your car before driving. The neo-con/fascists play hardball!
Wolf is operating in another realm -- not based in reality or facts. Chavez??? I'm sick and tired of people calling Chavez a dictator, fascist, etc., etc. that has no basis in facts whatsoever!!! Stop listening to MSM/FOX -- Chavez has been democratically elected by more than 60% of the people of Venezuela. He is loved by the majority for standing up for the poor, indigenous, disenfranchised people of Venezuela who for many, many decades were the forgotten people in Venezuela. Same with Evo Morales and other Latin countries who are electing democratic leaders dedicated to bringing mroe equality to the ordinary people. These leaders have challenged the elite and the dictators (supported by the U.S.) that existed for years and caused the murder of millions over decades (can you say Banana wars for U.S. corporate interests)? YOU NEED TO READ MORE BECUASE OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!
He is loved by the majority for standing up for the poor, indigenous, disenfranchised people of Venezuela who for many, many decades were the forgotten people in Venezuela.
-----------
Please understand that to a neo-conservative (which is a mental illness ranging from narcissim to psychopathy) governing for the benefit of the poor is a crime.
Just as mentally healthy individuals view pre-emptive war and torture as horrendous barbaric criminal acts neo-cons view government aid to those in need in the same vein.
This is very difficult for stable people to understand...that their elected leaders could be monsters.
"This is very difficult for stable people to understand...that their elected leaders could be monsters."
That's very true, and I think it gets to the heart of the problem.
Adolph Hitler was democratically elected by over 80% of the voters in Germany. He was loved by the majority for standing up for the poor, indigenous, disenfranchised people of Germany. Does that mean he was NOT dictator or fascist? Saddam was democratically elected by 100% of the voters in Iraq, does that mean he was NOT a dictator or murderer?
There is no doubt Chavez has done quite a bit to help the poor and disenfranchised people in Venezuela, but there is growing voice among all spectrums of Venezuelan society that Chavez has turned from the benevolent president to a human rights abusing dictator. You should read more than just leftist propaganda.
Wolf123-
Jumping straight into the Nazi argument tells me you have no useful facts what so ever to back up your argument.
The only people who are pissed at Chavez are the oil companies who lost their facilities to nationalization, the oil company funded venezuelan media who lost their oil company funding because of oil nationalization, and the minority of venezuelan elites who are rich enough to have tv's to watch what the oil company funded media says about their arch enemy, Chavez the oil nationalizer.
You are the one who stated Chavez was democratically elected by 60% of the people in Venezuela and as such can not be a dictator. I just gave 2 examples of democratically elected people who turned out to be and was a dictator. I an sorry if your circular logic has holes in it. If you want I can give you about 20 more "democratically elected" dictators.
"The only people who are pissed at Chavez are the oil companies who lost their facilities to nationalization, "
Well I'm sure they are pissed at Chavez BUT they are not the only ones. Now that the price of oil is close to where it should be Chavez will have a hard time paying off the poor to come out and demonstrate in favor of him. Chavez failed miserably to build up Venezuela's infrastructure, farms, industry etc to give Venezuela's poor the opportunity for decent paying jobs to get them out of poverty. Thanks to the sky high price of oil Venezuela's poor got welfare from Chavez but no jobs, now that the price of oil is down so are the welfare payments and so is his popularity.
>>Adolph Hitler was democratically elected by over 80% of the voters in Germany. He was loved by the majority for standing up for the poor, indigenous, disenfranchised people of Germany
No he was not. This is a number you pulled out of your backside. Please give your sources for this number of 80 percent.
The elections in Venezuala have been fair and have been monitored by a number of International agencies all whom claim it above board and legitimate UNLIKE those of Saddam Hussein.
Indeed these monitoring agencies indicate that the elections ion Venezuala are more transparent and more accuate of the will of the Voter then those in the United States of America, where PRIVATE Corporations count the vote.
The results given out by the Propaganda Ministry early this morning show that out of a total vote of 43,438,378, cast by a possible voting population of more than 45,000,000, there were 38,279,514 who answered Yes, 4,287,808 who answered No and there were 871,056 defective ballots. Thus there is an affirmative vote of almost 90 per cent of the valid votes and a negative vote of nearly 10 per cent exclusive of the spoiled ballots which may or may not have been deliberately rendered defective.
These results therefore show that the number of Germans discontented with Chancellor Hitler's course is increasing but is not yet seriously damaging to it. He is the Fuehrer [leader] of the Reich with absolute power by the vote of almost 90 per cent of the Germans in it but the number of dissidents has doubled since the last test.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/61/198.html
My bad, it was 90% not 80% that voted for him. And I never said the voting was fair, I just gave the results. Just look at old news reels of Hitler traveling around Germany, 10's of thousands of Germans out cheering for him where ever he went. I lived across the street from an old couple that lived in Germany during WW2, one day while watching TV at his house during the news they played an old news reel of Germans cheering for Hitler, I asked Karl did you Germans really like Hitler that much or did the SS force you? He said "yes in the beginning it would be hard to find someone who did not love Hitler, especially the young women".
Now I am NOT comparing Obama to Hitler, get that straight, but there is an uncanny resemblance in Obamamainia and Hitlermainia especially among young women.
Amazing how you people put words in my mouth that I never said. I never said that the vote for Chavez was not of the will of the voter and you are totally correct vote counting in the US suc@s. This electronic voting is open to massive fraud as numerous reports have shown. When I worked for the county on election night I ran a counting machine for paper ballots. The machine was programmed by county programmers and their work was validated by state programmers the machine was in a closed loop (no chance of hacking), then the machines were tested for 3 days before election day. None of this outsourcing to unknown programmers working who knows where. Personally in a close vote or a runaway, I don't trust the results.
"I never said that the vote for Chavez was not of the will of the voter"
*rolls eyes*.
Yet, you compared Chavez' election with that of Hitler and Saddam, conveniently omitting that most international observers consider Chavez' elections fair.
"
Now I am NOT comparing Obama to Hitler, get that straight, but there is an uncanny resemblance in Obamamainia and Hitlermainia especially among young women."
It is uncanny how males are oh so very concerned about how young women perceive Obama. Are you equally concerned about the Palinmania among white males?
>>My bad, it was 90% not 80% that voted for him. And I never said the voting was fair, I just gave the results. Just look at old news reels of Hitler traveling around Germany, 10's of thousands of Germans out cheering for him where ever he went. I lived across the street from an old couple that lived in Germany during WW2, one day while watching TV at his house during the news they played an old news reel of Germans cheering for Hitler, I asked Karl did you Germans really like Hitler that much or did the SS force you? He said "yes in the beginning it would be hard to find someone who did not love Hitler, especially the young women".
When 90 percent voted for Hitler, Germany was no longer a Democracy. It was a Dictaroship. Under DEMOCRATIC Rules Hitler garnered far less then 50 percent of the voted.
Chavez is not a dictator and had free and open elections. Chavez, as example , never had the Supreme Court stop the count in an election and have himslef appointed as President.
As far as I can tell, torture ain't the only war crime we've committed lately... I think we also are guilty of numbers 1,2,3,5,6,8,10,12,13,14
Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions include:
1. Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
2. Torture or inhumane treatment
3. Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property
4. Forcing a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of a hostile power
5. Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial
6. Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer
7. Taking hostages
The following acts as part of an international conflict:
8. Directing attacks against civilians
9. Directing attacks against humanitarian workers or UN peacekeepers
10. Killing a surrendered combatant
11. Misusing a flag of truce
12. Settlement of occupied territory
13. Deportation of inhabitants of occupied territory
14. Using poison weapons
15. Using civilians as shields
16. Using child soldiers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime