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Technorati'We Are Trained to Kill, so Civilian Life Is Tough'
In a remarkable and brave interview, Johnson Beharry reveals the daily torment he faces after fighting for his country – and explains why he is still fighting for his Army comrades
Two young men stood nose to nose on a south London street a few months ago, in a furious argument over a minor car accident so heated it had to be broken up by police.
![[Lance Corporal Johnson Beharry: 'If I fall asleep, I relive all the battles. I start sweating' (Teri Pengilley)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/ptsd_beharry.jpg "ptsd_beharry.jpg")
The scene would have been utterly common place, banal even, had one of the young men involved not been the country's greatest living war hero - Victoria Cross recipient Lance Corporal Johnson Beharry.
"I actually wanted to kill the person. The police had to come," explained the 29-year-old, who is one of only 10 living VC holders. "It was not about the car, it was not about the accident. I have been told that because of what happened to me [in Iraq] all my body can remember is defence. Any time something happens I go into a defence mode."
Cpl Beharry's gentle face is now familiar across the country. He is the quiet, solemn figure who stood behind 110-year-old veteran Harry Patch on Armistice Day. Since becoming the first living recipient of a VC for 40 years for "repeated extreme gallantry and unquestioned valour", the young Grenadian has been portrayed, somewhat patronisingly, as a humble, almost docile Caribbean soldier.
Cpl Beharry is a confident, self-possessed, yet modest, man, driven to make something of his life and help others. But he is also a soldier tortured by mental and physical wounds, who has had to learn to live with constant pain, nightmares, mood swings and unexplained rages. He has decided to speak out for the first time on behalf of the thousands of servicemen and women suffering in the UK, who are forced to turn to charities for help because the Government is failing them.
The soldier cannot remember the last time he had a good night's sleep. Almost five years after he saved the lives of 30 comrades in Iraq by driving through a series of ambushes - his head sticking out of the burning Warrior armoured vehicle "despite a harrowing weight of incoming fire" - he can get no rest.
"If I fall asleep, I relive all the contacts [battles]. I start sweating. Even thinking about it now I am beginning to sweat," he explained. "Kosovo, Northern Ireland, Iraq, training - it all blends into one. One minute, I will be in Iraq on top of a building and the next thing I am in Grenada with my friends during the same contact. I have been told I kick in my sleep and worse. I used to get a couple of hours a night but recently, I can't sleep again. I lie there at night, tossing and turning. I put on the TV. I try to read to get tired but I can't. You think the next night you are so tired you will sleep but you don't."
The rocket-propelled grenade that tore open his skull put him in a coma for eight days but, Cpl Beharry explained in an unemotional tone, he survived because his head was so smashed up that it allowed room for his swelling brain. Today, his hair has largely grown over the scar which extends from one ear to the other. But the pain persists, jumping from his back to his shoulder and bouncing around in his head. He likened it to an agonising toothache but he refuses to take painkillers for fear of becoming dependent.
"No one expected me to walk or talk or even be alive. My mind is telling me everything is fine and my body is reminding me it is not. I have been told it is memory pain, the body catching up. My psychotherapist explained that the body could only deal with a certain amount of pain at a time so it comes out later. When I get those moments, I get angry."
Ironically, he chose to endure more pain when he decided to have the Victoria Cross tattooed across his entire back. It is a reminder that he his not just a man who will go down in history for his bravery but an ordinary young soldier with the customary penchant for the artist's needle.
On his uninjured shoulder is a tattoo of his late grandmother, to whom he would run as a child when his father was violently abusive, and who instilled in him values, aspirations, and a respect for religion. The body art represents the most important things in his life alongside his fiancée, Tamara Vincent.
The boy who walked to school barefoot speaks with informal ease of meeting royalty and heads of state. When he was presented to the then US President, George Bush, before the election, he boldly asked him who he thought would win. Bush replied "Obama". When Cpl Beharry met the Queen on his investiture at the Palace, she said to him that it was the injuries people could not see that would take the longest to heal. The combination of brain injuries and combat stress has made an angry young man of him at times, often completely irrational, he said. During his time in Amarah with the 1st Battalion, The Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment, his battle group came under attack more than 800 times.
"People don't realise how hard it is for soldiers. You spend six months on the battlefield and you have to defend yourself every day and then you come back to normal life and go to Tesco's and someone runs into your trolley. You have to stop and think it is only a trolley, you are not on the battlefield. We are trained to be angry. We are trained to kill and then at five o'clock you have to go home, adjust, change completely to a different person. You can't react the same way." He continued: "The only people who can relate to it is other soldiers or ex-soldiers who have been through the same. I find it difficult to talk to normal civilians."
The wail of a siren, the bang of a door, any loud noise, reminds him of the RPGs that blasted into the Warrior armoured vehicle he was driving, of the day he repeatedly leapt on to the burning vehicle to drag injured colleagues to safety, or the moment six weeks later when he was injured again, this time almost fatally. "It brings me back into the killing zone, to the explosion. When you hear a bang in Iraq, you know it is going to be followed by something and back home you still feel the same. You go tense, waiting. I go into that defence mode. Everyone experiences combat stress differently. But we are all linked.
"The guys are dealing with it in their own way," he added. "A lot of soldiers who were there in Telic 4 [the Iraq campaign of summer 2004] have left the Army. Those who are still serving get some form of help for combat stress, but not enough."
War veterans are supposed to get priority treatment in the health system for conditions resulting from military service but many complain that the reality is very different. "It is disgraceful that an ex-serviceman or woman has to go to the NHS. The Government should have something in place," he said. "I don't think the Government is doing enough for soldiers, personally. That is why you have all these different organisations like Help for Heroes."
The burden of the VC has placed incredible pressure to be a "superman". "I am no different to anyone else. I did something out of the ordinary but I hope that someone else would have done the same thing in my position. There is a lot of stress. The hardest part of it is so much is expected of me. I now have to carry myself in a certain manner and it is hard work."
His brain injury has also left him with a terrible short-term memory. "If people can see the problem, maybe they can sympathise, but when they can't it is very difficult. People see me acting normally but inside I am dealing with the pain of the injury." But he added: "I worry something is going to happen to me, that one day my injury is going to creep up on me and I will be in bed all the time."
While he is grateful for all the care he has received, he worries for others. "Two years ago, I went to King's College Hospital because I was in so much pain. I sat in the waiting room for three hours before I could see a doctor. It was ridiculous. It is not because of who I am that I should be treated first. I think all soldiers should be treated equally.
"Ex-servicemen and women should get the treatment but they don't get it. We need to raise awareness in the NHS. These are people who have served this country. Why can't they get treatment?"
Sitting in a smart London hotel, he is all too aware that many of his regiment are in Iraq and Afghanistan and, like VC recipients before him, he will never return to the frontline. He is deeply frustrated by the enforced inactivity, unable to join his regiment and desperate for the Army to find him a role. "I don't regret anything that happened to me but I feel like I am 60 years old because I don't have a job. I am employed but I don't feel employed. I want to achieve something in life."
Four years after being awarded the VC, he lives in a small house on a quiet south London street, living off a Lance Corporal's salary, boosted by a reported £1m book deal. He is sanguine about the press coverage which followed his split from his wife, Lynthia, days after the investiture. "Everything about me is in the open. I have nothing to hide," he said. He spends his time promoting his book, Barefoot Soldier, which describes his early days growing up in an impoverished Caribbean family, his move to the UK at 19 and decision to join the Army - and pursuing his passion to inspire children from difficult backgrounds. "Because I was involved in drink and smoking weed, I can say I was there and look at how my life turned around, tell them they have a choice: a job or prison."
He also helps out with countless charities, including Combat Stress, which offers a lifeline to thousands of servicemen dealing with mental health problems. The charity has experienced a 53 per cent increase in the past three years in veterans presenting with post-traumatic stress or complications brought on by combat. A £4m grant from the Ministry of Defence covers less than half its costs, and it must rely on other donations. A portrait of Cpl Beharry is among items being auctioned at Combat Stress's 90th anniversary ball, organised by another decorated former soldier, Kevin Godlington, in London on 11 June.
But while Cpl Beharry is happy to put himself in the public eye to help such causes, he finds attention difficult and rarely takes public transport.
With a wistful grin he explained: "Eric Wilson [the country's oldest VC holder, who died last year aged 96] said to me 'Young man, your life will never be the same again.' At the time, I thought it was just a saying but, trust me, it is not."
112 Comments so far
Show Allsorry to have been away from the dialogue for so long. of course, redrick, i'm not really including you when i use the word dialogue.
djnoll/03.01/6:02pm - take away the over-inflated signing bonuses, take away the chance at a free education (even if they fucked it up the first time), take away the medical benefits (long after they retire from the military), take away their uncounted and untold perks and then let's see how many will volunteer "to serve their nation with pride and dignity."
redrick, maybe, since you seem to be the charter member - as well as the only member - of the joehope'sasdumbasarock fan club, you two could float off into the sunset, whispering sweet nothings in each others' ears. chances are joejoke is approximately four years old. so be careful with the sweet nothings, or you'll find yourself in some sort of child molestation situation. that's providing you yourself are over 18 years of age. wipe the foam from your mouth, go back and re-read the article, and perhaps, just perhaps, you'll see what a pathetic lost soul this young man - making his girlfriend compete with his tattoos - really is.
but what's really classic, redrick, is your post today, at 5:51pm. in it you seek "debate in an honest and intelligent way" only to turn around, in the same breath and use phrases like "childish and spiteful rant." even better is "a fucking pity you are." even more better is "your stupid assumptions," then we have the classic "you just may be simply too stupid." finally, and mercifully, you present to us the flan after the main meal: "your childish bullshit." you, buttwipe, are not worthy of "an honest and intelligent debate." it is because of people like you that my guns are sighted in and my knives are kept sharp.
So, your stupidly vapid and insulting post is Ok while mine are horrid and uncalled for ehh...Nice job jackass. Conflating this unfortunate young man with the great majority of service men and women is about as juvenile an argument as it gets
I always respond initially with politeness, but certainly reserve the right to answer insult for insult. But you are apparently so agendized as to be trapped in the void of your own blindness...Good luck with that, and good luck convincing a majority of Americans that you actually have a brain, or a just cause for that matter.
I think this topic is done...I leave the field to the High School crowd.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
There is no honor in this war, there should be no pensions rewarded for doing this or Victorian Crosses...
Shame, nothing but deep, indelible shame everlasting...
Vietnamese killed 3000000
Americans killed 58000
52 Vietnamese killed for every American
Population of Vietnam in 1966 38 million. Approximate number of injuries of the population 21-24 million over the course of the war.
Vietnam is the size of Arizona
6.5 million tons of bombs were dropped on Vietnam
25 million acres of forest destroyed
10,000 hamlets destroyed
11.2 million gallons of Agent orange
400,000 tons of napalm
15 million refugees
For every Vietnamese death Americans dropped over 2 pounds of bombs.
After the war unexploded munitions remained. Dioxin remained.. herbicides remained.
This was not in any way mutual destruction. This was not a fair fight. This was was definitely not a defeat for America it was instead an unqualified success. A most successful genocide, eclipsed only by Germany in WW2. Just killing mostly primitive people in their bamboo homes and burning town after town after town. Done from the safety of the air by sparky high-heeled American boys named McCain who joined to win the love and respect of his father and grandfather and to impress the girls...and this was while only one in 4 thought it was horrid. Four dead in Ohio.
“While claiming to be the champion of freedom and self-determination, the
United States waged a brutal and bloody war on the people of a small country,
both ally and enemy alike, to warn them of the perils of self-determination,
be it nationalist or socialist. Rather than allow the Vietnamese to choose their
own political system, government and social organization, the United States
tried to violently force its preferred system on a people who were not receptive
to it.”
The preceding paragraph along with statistics was published on Monday, April 17, 2000 in Commondreams:
“25 Years After End Of Vietnam War:
Myths Keep Us From Coming To Terms
With Vietnam"
by Bob Buzzanco
sounds dreadfully familiar...there is no honor or glory in this...Join to stop the madness Vietnam Vets Against War.
"The "support the troops" symbolism also comes with a hidden agenda, a subtext that is about the anti-war movement. Understandably, the war brings a lot of emotion to the surface and some of that feeling stems from frustration with the economy, a sense of helplessness in the face of large-scale social and technological change, and fear that cherished American values are being lost. For some people, the real war is the war at home and the enemy coalition comes bundled for them in the anti-war movement. The redirection of their legitimate anger about the deteriorating quality of life in America onto peace activists is shortsighted scapegoating that won't solve problems." -Jerry Lembcke
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
Combat stress makes people crazy. Many studies show it. And, of course, soldiers (I used to be one) are not trained to defend their countries, they are trained to kill.
one old atheist
Absolutely no sympathy or empathy for that guy. He never fought for me or my country. Talk about delusion. The people keeping me safe are engineers and scientists who have built and are maintaining our nuclear dissuasion. What's keeping me safe are the dozen of nuclear submarines roaming the oceans that are capable, unfortunately, of annihilating anybody who'd threaten us. That's what keeping us safe, not morons who couldn't get into community colleges or were too lazy to try to get in. That guy never fought for me. He's a killer who enlisted to go massacre third world people. He didn't have a brain before enlisting, he came back with an even emptier head, so what!
That you lack empathy is clear, phorlan. Empathy is a basic requisite for progressive thought, so you reveal yourself to be either a useful fool of the right wing, or one of its trolls.
As to being an empty-headed moron, just what exactly does "Nuclear dissuasion" mean, anyway?
Nuclear subs are keeping us all safe? Hmmm.... I thought they were like the sword of Damocles hanging perilously over the collective neck of all mankind.
You seem to have difficulty with logical and cogent thought, phorlan. But I suppose that's probably par for the course for a community college metriculate such as yourself. How's that Associates in General Studies working out for you, anyway?
Remarkable, isn't it, that our soldier Beharry says, "we are trained to kill," not "we are trained to defend our country"? Is that a Freudian slip?
Here's a novel approach: Let's start training poets, painters, philosophers, ecologists, ethicists, farmers, teachers, social workers instead of killers.
Somebody ought to write that down and send it to our governmental leaders. I can 100% guarantee the returns on that investment will surpass anything we are doing now.
Too many morally bankrupt fat cats have too much political power.
I have read about all I can stomach of this discussion. I am 56 years old and I remember how our nation treated (and still treats for that matter) our soldiers who were returning from Vietnam. It was and continues to be a national disgrace! The attitude of those who do not support the troops but instead call them names like psychopaths, killers, child murders are nothing more than cowards.I am, and have been from 9/11, opposed to the military actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq, especially Iraq. But, I have had the privilege of going to school online with many of the brave young people who serve over there. These young people are intelligent; they are frustrated; they are lied to by their superiors; they are not naive or ignorant or mentally ill.These are young men and women who chose to exercise their civic virtue in the service of their country, not in service to its leaders. There is a huge difference, but sometimes leaders like Bush, Odierno, Gates, and Petraeus take advantage of situations (such as promotions and glory from a criminal president) in order to fulfill personal agendas.The words written here by many attacking our soldiers is both hypocritical (most Americans advocated for going after Bin Laden in 2001) and cruel, insensitive, and without merit of any kind. Our soldiers need our support, now more than ever since Bush abandoned their support when they come home injured.Those on this site who post vile and derogatory comments about our soldiers show two things: they have no understanding of civic virtue as laid out by our Forefathers, and they have no compassion for others. I will respect any soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine who serves this nation, regardless of what their leaders do, because they have chosen (yes, volunteered) to serve their nation with pride and dignity, even in the harshest of situations. To do less is both cowardly and unpatriotic.
"Many tellers of (abuse) tales identify the culprits as girls, a curious quality to the stories that gives away their gendered subtext...emerging a decade after the troops had come home from Vietnam are similar enough to the legends of defeated German soldiers defiled by women upon their return from World War I, and the rejection from women felt by French soldiers when they returned from their lost war in Indochina, to suggest something universal and troubling at work in their making...just fantasies conjured in the imaginations of aging veterans."-Jerry Lembke
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
dnoll: One thing never changes. Anyone who says that we were not treated with respect and honor when we returned from Viet Nam wasn't there to begin with. I find that generally they reveal themselves to be Republican draft dodgers like Dick Cheney and George Bush who were not getting any sex at all because they were cowards who cried and whined their way out of mandatory service. We were drafted and taken away from our families and they knew the rotten deal that we had received. It was only the draft dodging Republicans who made up this story you peddle to pad the lies about their real cowardice in the face of the draft. They are chickens and you sir "djnoll" are a yellow bellied coward who never served and is lying through his teeth in this blog.
I and everyone who I ever met after returning was treated with respect and dignity. More than we deserved actually. We had the choicest wine, women, and song. We hitched anywhere we wanted and were loved and honored for having returned alive. Every woman wanted to have sex with us and give us the greatest love they had. The hippies were especially nice and they gave us home grown pot and Owsley acid. There was great pot coming from Southeast Asia and guys were filling their seabags with it and bringing them to New York in the Brooklyn Navy Yard where I was being processed for separation. Woodstock Summer 1969 was all peace and love and New York City opened up the city for us.
The CIA hadn't yet released aids to the general population although they were very busy trying to perfect it because there was so much sex in 1969 with the free love movement they feared that if they did not give everyone a disease when they had sex, make pot and acid illegal that Richard Nixon might lose the 1972 election. The religious morons were even starting to take off their magic underwear. They made recreational drugs illegal and they started taking the returning veterans and busting them for pot and acid and jailed them intentionally giving them jail records so that we couldn't find jobs.
In everyday society if you were not a long haired hippy you were considered brain dead. Only stiff Republican matronly women like Lynne Cheney, Laura Bush, and Hillary Clinton were available for partners. And they made you marry them first! I pity you "djnoll", you got nothing for being a coward and you have been trying to enter hip society ever since and you can't do it because you wear your shame on your face and you can't wash it off, --you chickened out. In 1969, the only people who didn't get favored by the girls were miserable poor little shamed Republicans. Having no war stories to tell they started telling this lie you are telling now.
The returnees today are mercenaries who chose to kill because they couldn't find a job. They were not lied to. They knew they were going to Kill Arab civilians and they were going to get well paid for it. I made 98 dollars a month in the US Navy and went all they way to 156 dollars a month when I made E-4. These miserable Iraq Afghan "vet" types were very well paid while they gleely killed civilians. They need to be separated from society to some sort of Devil's Island and until this happens they deserve the Lysistrata treatment (shunning) from women. And you can go there too "djnoll" for doing your George Bush Pom Pom Andover cheerleading bit here in this respectful blog. We actual Veterans do not countenance your stinking lie and wish you would start telling the truth about how you are still yellow. We VETERANS are really fed up with you and your chicken Republican buddies.
The only real hero in the Iraq/Afghanistan war was and is John Walker Lindh. Get it right kiddo no one was ever spat upon upon returning from Viet Nam. -It- -just- -didn't- -happen-. You are lying, lying, lying. It never happened. Go to a Republican site where liars are always welcome.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
You sound like a broken record. You are rehearsing the same old nonsense of your dear soldiers' "exercising their civic virtue in the service of their country" and their "serving this nation".
Sorry, Sir, but they are doing neither. They are not excercising civic virtue, but rather the vice of hired killers, and they are not serving this nation, but rather the interests of corporations and banks and right-wing ideologues. And we now -- with the financial debacle -- have graphic proof of what these folks think of this nation's regular working people.
It is high time this variety of patriotic pieties no longer be considered acceptable and be denounced for the piffle it is.
red rick/6:08 am - re: "the policies that abuse those children," perhaps you are correct in that part of the situation. but the even bigger picture is the recruitment of young and gullible and naive and mostly undereducated and mostly from the poor side of town (see the connection?) human beings, or as you put it, children. there is a reason our government goes after this bracket. bet they won't tell you about that in your "tiers."
oh, regarding those policies you speak of and "those who joined the national guard for monthly meetings and two weeks in summer," seems like i heard somewhere that that's not working out so well. i'll repeat myself, in case you missed it earlier, if you're gonna buy the lie, then face the reality - after the purchase - of living it.
i'll be the first in line to defend my own country, and her natural resources, from foreign "terrorists" - as well as our own homegrown variety - when that time arrives. until then, we'd be better off as a society by taking care of our own country first. obviously, it has fallen into disrepair.
no word for several hours from joehope. must be sleeping. or dreaming about his "freedom" fries. careful there, joehasn'tgotaclue, you'll outgrow your cheerleader uniform.
Perhaps Joe is bored with your elitist stupidity? When Joe is bored with a vacuous line of reasoning it is certainly past time to reassess ones views....
Those who try to demean our soldiers are far, far off line, and far from mature as well. You are doing the work of the right wing and you are too dumb to know it. Is it any wonder that "progressives" never prosper?
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
Red Rick writes:
"Those who try to demean our soldiers are far, far off line..."
Our soldiers? They ain't my soldiers. I believe they work for the corporations, although our taxes pay for their killing sprees.
Remarks like that do the work of the right wing and demean and diminish the attempts to advance a progressive agenda. Congratulations for retarding progress.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
Red Rick comments:
"Remarks like that do the work of the right wing and demean and diminish the attempts to advance a progressive agenda. Congratulations for retarding progress."
You are too easily intimidated by right wingers.
You are telling me that a progressive agenda should endorse an army of mercenaries who perform the dirty "work" for big business, banks, and right-wing ideologues, because doing otherwise amounts to "doing the work of the right wing." Sounds like pretty twisted reasoning to this reader.
No, what he's telling you is that a progressive agenda would not employ our military in the pursuit of corporate interests, but that a REACTIONARY, pinheaded viewpoint rooted in impotent rage and stupid hatred that mocks and demeans our very own countrymen who serve us only serves the interests of the right wing who LOVE to portray sensible, peace loving progressives as rabid reactionaries to the rest of the body politic.
And your post reveals you to be all those things, Abenland: reactionary, pinheaded, impotent, stupid, and most of all, a TOOL of the right-wing.
But perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you're not stupid. Maybe you're just a troll.
To Drift's March 2, 12:49 pm post,
If you read my posts in this thread, you would have seen that I said the following on 3/1, 3:33 pm, below:
"Which brings me to my last point: with respect to defense, what this country needs is a citizens' army (yes, conscription, plainly and simply), not an army of mercenaries at the service of corporations and other elite interests. That would change a lot of things in the way things are done in this country and by this country.
It is time for the citizens to reclaim the military from the abusive hands that are in charge of it, just as it is time for the citizenry to reclaim the other parts of
the government."
If I am as impotent as you deem me to be, then why get so worked up? The venom of your post is a clear indication that I hit a button with you. And we are going to see now that that button is deep-seated ambivalence on your part.
I do not know whether you are stupid, but you certainly jump to conclusions without reading what people write, without informing yourself, and that makes you at least prejudiced. I suppose your rage got the better of you. Nothing makes people crazier than their beloved, sacrosanct military, even self-appointed progressives.
You are also incoherent: if the present military serves corporate interests, which you seem to grant in your first paragraph, then it is not "serving us," as you continue to say in the very same paragraph. A case of ambivalence, it would seem.
Thirdly, your alleged correction of what I took Red Rick to have said is not a correction, but a mountain of nonsense. That fact that he concurred with you shows that neither of you have any degree of clarity about the military, but that you have merely unexamined, knee-jerk reactions when it comes to that sacred cow.
As for your accusation that I am a reactionary and your insinuation that I am a troll, I shall chalk them up to your variety of toxic, ambivalent rage.
To return to my initial point, the one contained in quotation of myself: if we had a citizens' army, then the citizens would be the military and we would not need paid soldiers who are misleadingly said to SERVE us (right now, unfortunately, the soldiers are servants of certain narrow, toxic interests), and we would not serve anything or anybody, but defend ourselves if such were needed.
Now, some history for Drift:
After the Vietnam war, in order both to have better control over soldiers, and to sever civil society from the military, the governing elites decided that the military was no longer going to be constituted by conscripts, but rather by hired hands. Conscripts were potential trouble for they might turn out to be reluctant soldiers, and people about to be conscripted might start vociferous protest movements and expose the workings of our society. By contrast, paid soldiers are more obedient, docile, and generally less likely to question the missions they are assigned to. Individuals who now join the armed forces are for the most part led to do so by difficult economic circumstances, the inability to pay for an education, and a lack of knowledge of what, or an unwillingness to see what, the armed forces' purpose is.
Here is a little corrective to your assumption that countrymen "serve us": foreigners seeking alien resident status in the United States are being hired into the armed forces, with the understanding that they may (yes, indeed, such is not assured as they enter the forces!) be awarded the desired status after their service in the military
See, Drift, it's a bit more complex than your rage led you to believe.
NAAAh, what you really do is drift with the tide, saying anything that defends your indefensible point of view.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
OMG, thank you so very much for those comments. I will always stand up for what I perceive to be the truth, regardless of the numbers who stand beside me. But it is nice to see others who believe as do I that this entire thread is one Rovian ploy to cast aspersions on the entire progressive intent.
It is rather sad that some fall so willingly for such a stupid path.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
Peace
We are destroying the cradle of our civilization. We are destroying ourselves. We are destroyers of the Earth.
It is no wonder so many soldiers return with severe psychiatric problems, PTSD, suicidal, homicidal, unable to rejoin society.
How can a human being continue to kill and kill, especially innocent people, and his or her mind not break down.
We are a society of war. I do not remember hardly a day of my life when we have not been at war with some other country or peoples. I am sick of it. It must stop.
From day one we are conditioned for war. Aggression is a corporate commodity in our country. Cartoons are often violent. TV is violent. Video games are violent. We worship violent sports. Even the Bible is violent. Most often we are taught an 'eye for an eye', and not 'turn the other cheek'.
Let us return to the Earth, let us worship it, let us save it. Get rid of oil as our main energy source. And let us not delude ourselves, it is oil that is the reason we are in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not because we are fighting for our freedom or 'they hate our way of life and are trying to destroy us' or we are there to form democracies. 9/11 would never have happened if we were not in the face of the people who live over the oil.
It is a good idea to organize among vets , as Winter Soldier, Courage to Resist, and others are doing. They could really help by getting out to high schools and employment centers to dissuade guys from enlisting. They could fight for better treatment for their psychological and physical wounds. Support this work if you can.
Code Pink has done exactly that, and gotten much criticism for mobilizing to keep recruiters out of Berkeley High School without parental consent.
I wonder how all those who criticize the kids who join the army rather than the policies that abuse those children feel now that they have been baited into posts that affirm the far right's view of " them damn libruls"....
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
Do the far right's opinions rule your life?
You have, I assume, a brain. Please engage it.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
We're missing the bigger issue.....war is hell for those who are combantants and civilians alike...nearly all wars, especially Bush's War in Iraq, is a crime againt humanity.
Politicians can't be allowed to disavow the moral responsibility of sending soldiers into unecessary, reckless wars by handing their victims pieces of metal and ribbon.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
Red Rick, this is what you quote at the end of every single one of your posts. Do you even know what this means??!!
It 100% contradicts everything you have posted in regards to glorifing military service.
Soldiers don't think.... So.... they die. And for WHAT?
I genuinely cannot believe the ignorant and empty support many have (Red Rick et al) have for U.S. soldiers. We have a VOLUNTEER military. These people have signed up to 'serve' the United States. Someone has suggested that many soldiers have an inablity to think critically about the decision to become a soldier due to lack of intelligence- that could be the case for some. Regardless, acting in a way that glorifies 'fighting for own's country'.... overseas... is exactly the problem. If these people signing up to 'fight for 'Merica' are too stupid to do a quick google search of "why America is at war" or even, I don't know, look at reality- they literally deserve everything they get. We should protect these people from their own naivete/stupidity instead of "support[ing] our troops". Morons on this site- seriously.
NPR did a story of a man, who is also a soldier, who has lost both of his sons to the Iraq war. One committed suicide, the other died in 'battle'. Huh. Sure glad my mother raised two critically thinking children. We are still alive. A**holes.
joehopeless, lay down your pompoms and just answer the goddamn question.
?
if the eyes are the window to one's soul, this young man is a danger to society. talk about a programmed robot. ah, therein lies the rub for some of you posters.
in pain, waiting for three hours in the hospital waiting room? how painful. welcome to the real world that most of your fellow citizens already know about. tattoos across the back suggests enduring pain? what muscle. then he says "it is not because of who i am that i should be treated first. i think all soldiers should be treated equally." talk about a certified nut case. need a good nite of sleep? try putting in an honest day of work. "can't" never did anything. "i now have to carry myself in a certain manner and it is hard work." pity his girlfriend who has to compete with his tattoos as being the most important thing in his life. his psyche 101 game doesn't fly here. if you're gonna buy the lie, then face the reality - after the purchase - of living it.
jclientelle, common sense disappeared a long time ago. when is the last time you saw ten acts of common sense, by your fellow man, or woman, or child, in one day? easier still, three acts in one day. it no longer counts.
red rick: "...those who see military duty as an obligation of a citizen, and many in our nation hold to that tradition." we've had an all-volunteer service for almost 40 years now. next excuse.
judah: "it may surprise you, but in america, military contracting is big business. rather than bemoan how that has no place in your ideal society, you must work with what is there." seriously, you're joking. right? right? right? i would guess that even non-progressives, or whatever you call yourselves, already know this. then again, maybe ya'll don't.
joehope, maybe you could be the one to end up in "a minor traffic accident" with one of these troubled souls, which would in turn, joehopefully, change the tune of your song. your ongoing cheerleading rabble rousing is truly pathetic. what exactly, in afghanistan, requires our self defense????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
It must be that reading comprehension thingie....
"red rick: "...those who see military duty as an obligation of a citizen, and many in our nation hold to that tradition." we've had an all-volunteer service for almost 40 years now. next excuse."
I fail to see any excuses, there are many families whose members see military service as a natural step in life. Many, many who have had members serving in our military for generations. What an all volunteer army has to do with this fact of life escapes me as logic and forthright discussion apparently escapes you.
Those who would blame soldiers for the orders of their commanders are fighting a losing battle in the eyes of a great majority of Americans, and those who join the service in order to survive in a failing economy are blameless as well. Your problem ,I believe, is your ivory tower view of this subject.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
If I were to nominate a hero, it would have been Pat Tillman.....He believed that Al Qaeda was behind 9/11. At the time he joined, the "Official Version" had been propagandized to persuade, at least, 80% of the nation that Al Qaeda was behind the attacks.
Pat Tillman was learning from his experience in Afghanistan that the Unitd States was helping Al Qaeda escape into Pakistan and was probably going to suport John Kerrey in the elections of 2004......Once he was killed, the Deprtment of Defense decided to wage a similar "Hero Campaign".....Pat Tillman was awarded the Silver Star and a wonderful Eulogy was written and presented about his heroics.
The problem was that he was shot by someone in his own brigade and whoever shot him was sent back to the states and disappeared.....Pat Tillman was intelligent and was writing about his experiences......All of his writings were destroyed. Why?
The Department of Defense investigated itself as it always does and exonerated itself as it always does.(From Lee Harvey Oswald to Mohammed Atta from My Lai to Abu Ghraib) Who wrote the eulogy? Why wasn't there an independent investigation? Why did the Mass Media castrate the family as it did Cindy Sheehan?
Paying a young man 1 Million Pounds for propaganda is not unique to the Brits.
"joehope, maybe you could be the one to end up in "a minor traffic accident" with one of these troubled souls, which would in turn, joehopefully, change the tune of your song. "
That's a really sick and insensitive thing to say.
"what exactly, in afghanistan, requires our self defense?"
911.
Let me guess, the Taliban had nothing to do with 911 because it was planned by Bush, every last Israeli citizen, and the aliens. Right? Ever read David Ray Griffin? Have you seen "Loose Change"?
They (the 9/11 Terrorists) were from Saudi Arabia.... Did you forget that tidbit?
Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia for 'creating/housing/protecting' terrorists? Because they are a beacon of democracy in the middle east!! ... oh wait... no they arn't....
Gee.... I cannot figure out why we didn't invade/occupy Saudi Arabia.....
Oh!!! Here's a possibility:
http://www.biyokulule.com/sawiro/sawirada_waaweyn/Bush-Saudi5.jpg
... and here:
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l176/musiclover1992/?action=view¤t=BushSaudiKing.jpg
I GET IT NOW!!!!!
Money. Greed. Power. Period.
"They (the 9/11 Terrorists) were from Saudi Arabia.... Did you forget that tidbit?"
No. That's a non sequitor.
"Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia for 'creating/housing/protecting' terrorists?"
Because the Saudi government did not assist in planning the attacks, unlike the Taliban.
"Gee.... I cannot figure out why we didn't invade/occupy Saudi Arabia....."
Gee, maybe it has something to do with not attacking an entire country just because the terrorists happened to be have been born there. By your logic we should have attacked ourselves after the Oklahoma City bombing.
We don't need to attack ourselves militarily. We do it daily by consuming processed foods and watching s**t on T.V. thus making the majority of Americans braindead... and likely to die of heart disease.
Speaking of such, given that FAR more Americans die of heart disease EVERY DAY, rather than 'terroism' ... when we done gonna see the "War on S**T Foods"?
Oh, just kidding. They make money. But it makes people sick. But that makes money too!! America is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!
'Gee, maybe it has something to do with not attacking an entire country just because the terrorists happened to be have been born there. By your logic we should have attacked ourselves after the Oklahoma City bombing.'
So we attack TWO entire countries instead!!
A non-sequitor... Are you sure you know what that means sir?
Perhaps figuring out WHY Saudi Arabians attatcked our country with the help of a government we initially SUPPORTED would be slightly more beneficial than waging war on TWO countries.
You know well and good why we don't think about this... because then we cannot go to war for strategic/profit driven reasons.
You just keep remaining 'hope'ful by deluding yourself with patriotic grandeur.
lino. Nice Post.
It is too convenient for these killers one year to be foaming at the mouth as they march in time, counting cadence with rhymes about bayonetting babies,
Then they get hurt or sad, after killing how many innocent people in a far-away land? And voila, they are victims, they need help, they need million pound book deals and coddling when they have temper tantrums.
Nonsense, millions of people, conscripted, have refused to serve in foreign wars,
This little monster loved it. Until he got a owee, awe. He learned owee's are a WHOLE lot more fun to inflict than suffer,
So now he is sad. Pathetic is more accurate, though it always was. If he likes to fight, he could try cage fighting, which is popular in the UK.. Of course that is for legitimately tough guys, not little psychpaths who don't deserve a pass from anyone.
Joe. Sign up today, get yer bonus check and be a He-Ro...."Nonsense." A hero to the corporations he repped. Like U.S. personnel are Exxon's heroes. Not mine.
If this is the result for our well trained and supported soldiers imagine the torment of the people who live in these countries and suffer the same stress and fear everyday for ever!!
[...join the Army - and pursuing his passion to inspire children
from difficult backgrounds. "Because I was involved in drink and
smoking weed, I can say I was there and look at how my life
turned around, tell them they have a choice: a job or prison."]
What a wonderful inspiration. Yes I can see how Your life turned
around and you into a mental wreck. You should have kept
smoking weed, because all I know about pot smokers (not
drinkers though) is that they are adamantly opposed to violence
and war. But here we see it right there. It is totally okay for most
people to join the army (anywhere) and go to war to do the dirty
job of some pigs in business suites. The military preys on young
men with gushing levels of testosterone. They are invincible and
they will teach those 'Rag heads, Krauts, Commies, Imperialists,
Vietcong' (or fill in whatever enemy you need) a lesson. A lesson
of murder, brutality and cruelty, all for the betterment of the world.
Indeed, you must be utterly stupid to buy into the patriotic
propaganda that is served all over the world to enlist young men
and women. There are no excuses of being stupid to buy into
the 'defending your country' BS. The best 'defense' is peacefulness.
As I do know for other reasons, I rather die of starvation than
joining any armed forces.
War is the ultimate challenge for human mankind. Supported only
by gun wielding morons and profiteering MIC members. Seems
that Karma always works and that we will witness the same
murderous brutality the MSM shielded us from in Iraq and
Afghanistan coming home to wreck havoc on our own soil.
Like You have to fight them there...and bring home all those brain
damaged 'heroes'.
As long as there is no mandatory psychotherapy for bullies at early
ages, they will grow up and become soldiers, cops and worse even
presidents.
Militarism is a Mental Disorder and needs to be treated accordingly.
"O Lord our Father,
our young patriots,
idols of our hearts,
go forth to battle -- be Thou near them!
With them -- in spirit --
we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe.
O Lord our God,
help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells;
help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain;
help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire;
help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst,
sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter,
broken in spirit, worn with travail,
imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it
-- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes,
blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps,
water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
The War Prayer --Mark Twain
It is time to read Mark Twain again. This poem was never published due to a rejection from a war loving editor. We have moved forward some since that time. No turning back from the promise of true egalitarian society. Do your part and end the war by not supporting it in either word or deed or sympathy for those who lack the courage to resist it. Keep pushing back again and again and again.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
Don't blame the Corporal. He should be encouraged to speak his mind. It's the best therapy for him. Instaed we should foucu on the system that grows these corporals and others. He is a product of a process that turns out these killers. That's where the problem lies. We have to renounce war as a means of advancing our culture.
Hoa binh
I agree. Hate the war, but please, support the troops.
I find it hard to view either of our wars as "a means of advancing our culture."
Afghanistan is about self-defense and nation building, whereas Iraq is just a debacle.
I pay my taxes, that is as far as my support for these mercenaries goes. Otherwise, I do not support them at all.
Yet they are willing to fight and die for your freedom.
"...they are willing to fight..." - Have you asked? Have they asked "why?" Those who fight for no reason deserve to be locked up as psychopaths, those who buy the "protecting freedom" lie are profoundly ignorant and gullible; if they buy the treasonous advertising sold them by the U. S. government and its military then they will learn what portion of the sales pitch was truthful, and what parts of the deal were lies. If they asked me, I'd tell them to find another way to make a living, and you will have a better chance to live a life of fulfillment. Or are the words of the corporal lost on your dull mind?
"Willing to fight" has many implications that you've conveniently chosen to ignore, and people who spout pro-government slogans without thinking critically are the greatest weakness of America, You are clearly among the leaders of this elite group of American ignorami. The U. S. attacks other countries and kills innocent people to continue its quest for global economic hegemony and unchallenged imperialism at the behest of its corporations. Soldiers don't die for freedom. If they die before their time, or suffer as this corporal has personally, it's because they've chosen to be ignorant or gullible, buying the lies and distortions sold them by agents for imperialism. They've died for nothing, other than meager pay, and the freedom to give their lives so that others can tread on their backs to pursue their games of greed.
I am free. No one died for me. I am free because I learned not to believe lies. I live because I took responsibility for my living. I truly wish all wannabe soldiers could have the clarity and freedom I have - perhaps I'm fortunate, but I also chose to inform myself what all the fighting is for. To this day, I resist enjoining the fight for greed and militarism - it surely isn't any fight for freedom, no matter what duplicitous and traitorous corporate whores like Obama tell us.
Hopeless Joke, I continue to be amazed by the mindless drivel you spout. You are truly a marvel, a human (?) "Old Faithful" that never fails to belch vacuous inanities - at least the geyser vents steam and gas. I am beginning to suspect that someone has programmed software to spout these responses - no human could possibly be so stupid. But then, this is America, land of the free to consume lies and deceptions, and home of the accordingly clueless.
Correction: they are not willing to fight and die for my freedom, as I did not want them to be in those foreign lands to begin with, and, secondly, they are willing to kill for a few dollars.
Ah.... what freedom of mine has been jeopardized? ... Yeah, that is what I thought.
Who is trying to take away American 'freedoms'?
Freedom to invade/occupy a foreign land for use of its resources? That freedom?
Pull EVERY SINGLE foreign military base out, and TELL the American a**holes who support these wars for resources that they simply have to change their lifestlyes... 'cause it simply isn't okay to dominate the world for us. Period.
.....Because U.S. soldiers have such a vast/expansive knowledge as to what genuine freedom is. Right.
No, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the troops in Iraq are currently fighting for your freedom, they're not.
I'm just saying that they would if they were called upon to do that (like in Afghanistan).
Sorry, The FBI has no proof that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks of 9/11.......As a matter of fact,two of the alleged hijackers were paid via Saudi Arabia and one was paid via The U.S Department of Defense and the ISI of Pakistan.
We are in Afghanistan to build an oil pipeline and to control the Caspian Sea Oil. The United States and Saudi Arabia financed and supported Al Qaeda. The United States and Saudi Arabia financed and supported the Taliban and brought them to power.
Returning veterans have been responsible for over 123 murders in the United States. There are now hundreds of suicides by returning vets.
The only way to support our troops is to bring them home and give them intensive proper psychiatric and medical care and monitor their mental and physical health every week for the first year back.
Th Department of Defense made every soldier believe that they were avenging the attacks of 9/11. Too bad there wasn't an independent investigation of the attacks of 9/11. (There is scientific proof beyond a doubt that fire could not have brought down World Trade Center#7, or for that matter the twin towers. Explosives had to have been used.)
HA! Break out the aluminum foil hats.
This "they fight for your freedom" wears a bit thin. it the most ridiculous thing I have heard.
why do people continue to use this line as some sort of pacifier like a child sucking on a soother?
Grow up.
Lance Corporal said it all when he said "civilian life is tough". Especially so if you happen to be a targeted civilian being targeted by Lance Corporal Johnson Beharry. But making the adjustments necessary for being a responsible citizen is what we require of citizens. Life IS hard and you have to do it the right way. Taking the easy way out by grabbing a gun and killing the innocent is the lowest form of adjustment that a human being can make. It damns the soul eternally, so I have been told as I wait for my judgment on my participation in the 1967 Six Day War. Take the counsel of one who has been there and give these happy Army fools no more of your precious life. Dementors, the lot of them content to suck the life from you and your children -all for want of creativity.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
Lance Corporal Johnson Beharry, I salute you.
You are a hero and an inspiration to us all.
Thank you.
Lance Corp. Beharry, I feel sorry for you. I do not consider you to be either a hero, or an inspiration. At best, you offer a good example of how not to conduct one's life.
Once we stop showing reverence for these killers, maybe they'll think twice before enlisting in the military.
"Almost five years after he saved the lives of 30 comrades in Iraq by driving through a series of ambushes - his head sticking out of the burning Warrior armoured vehicle "despite a harrowing weight of incoming fire" - he can get no rest."
How dare you! If he is not a hero, do you wish he hadn't have saved those people's lives?
Lance Corp. Beharry is the living embodiment of heroism and bravery.
It's one thing to oppose the war, it's quite another to oppose the brave men and women who are willing to fight and die for YOUR freedom.
They are not killers, they are our sons and daughters, our friends and neighbors. It''s not their fault that Bush created a mess in Iraq and left our soldiers to be sitting ducks with an impossible mission. They have no choice but to follow orders. Have you no decency?
Poor slobs, they just followed orders. Isn't that what Adolf Eichmann said during his trial in Jerusalem? Sorry, folks, I was following orders. This sort of rationalization for the ways of killers has got to come to an end. It is no longer acceptable.
As for defending freedom, that rationalization, too, has got to come to an end. When we really need to defend our freedom, we'll take care of it. Don't worry about that, JoeHopeless. You are wallowing in self-deception, Joe, and in hackneyed, unexamined phrases and rationalizations served by the keepers of Empire.
Still, REGARDING FREEDOM: why is it that on 9/11, the one single, solitary day in decades when real, observable, concrete acts of violence were being perpetrated against the inhabitants of the United States, its military, our alleged defender of freedom, whose budget exceeds all other budgets, was nowehre to be seen and did nothing to prevent the carnage?
Which brings me to my last point: with respect to defense, what this country needs is a citizens' army (yes, conscription, plainly and simply), not an army of mercenaries at the service of corporations and other elite interests. That would change a lot of things in the way things are done in this country and by this country.
It is time for the citizens to reclaim the military from the abusive hands that are in charge of it, just as it is time for the citizenry to reclaim the other parts of the government.
I do believe thousands of Iraqi mothers/fathers/grandmothers/grandfathers would disagree with your "they are not killers". They have killed hundreds of thousands of people. Killed. ...but you tell yourselves these things so you can sleep at night.
"they have no choice but to follow orders." Oh boy. Thank you for illustrating how completely braindead one would have to be to join such an organization. Brilliant. "They have no choice." .... So did the Nazis have a choice. No. Okay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No worries guys!!!!! They were just following orders!!! Everybody mind your business.... (insert concentration camp photo here). Idiot.
Spare me the comparisons to Nazis, that's too ridiculous.
And just because our soldiers have to kill does not make them "killers". To call them "killers" implies they are murderers.
BTW hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq have been killed by sectarian violence NOT by our troops, there is a big difference. True, we are responsible for unleashing that violence, but don't try to make it seem like it's American troops setting off car bombs in crowded marketplaces.
"And just because our soldiers have to kill does not make them 'killers'" ... I mean, wow. Wow. Are you sure... cause.... ah... nevermind. Too easy.
"True, we are responsible for unleashing that violence"... Again.... are you trying to make my case.... or one of your own?
Oh, and by the way... If you think all Iraqi fatalities are/were caused by carbombs.... You. Are. Crazy.
The VERY second one innocent person died in Afghanistan/Iraq as a result of our 'cause', we became terrorists and no better than those carrying out their 'cause' on 9/11. Whoever they were. Period. War IS terror. Period.
If I kill to save an innocent life do I deserve to be called a killer?
"Again.... are you trying to make my case.... or one of your own?"
Look, I oppose the war in Iraq. I'm glad Obama is ending it. All I'm saying is that it is not our troops killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.
"The VERY second one innocent person died in Afghanistan/Iraq as a result of our 'cause', we became terrorists and no better than those carrying out their 'cause' on 9/11."
That's moral relativity at it's worst. Obviously, you don't understand the difference between terrorism (the deliberate murder of civilians) and collateral damage (the accidental harming of civilians).
If I kill to save an innocent life do I deserve to be called a killer?
Exactly what is an 'innocent life'? ...
Excellent reply, Truthbetold!!!!
JoeHope is the master of hackneyed, unexamined language. He is thoroughly indoctrinated. He wallows in the rhetoric of most Congresspeople, a rhetoric fine-tuned over the decades of imperialistic adventures by think-tanks and cold-war ideologues.
Hey Joe, you who love to throw around the language of freedom so much, how about freeing yourself of all that garbage talk?
Obviously, you don't understand the difference between terrorism (the deliberate murder of civilians) and collateral damage (the accidental harming of civilians).
No, I don't. And neither do children whose parents are killed by our bombs and guns. Neither do the parents whose children are now missing limbs because of our bombs and our guns. Not to mention the thousands of Palestinians who have recently died because of OUR bombs and our guns. No, I don't understand the difference- because, there is no difference. - And if you see one, you are no better than someone blowing up a building or car for their cause ... or one blowing up a school or country for theirs. Terror is terror is terror. You truly are not a bright person.
'Collateral Damage' .... That is exactly what the people who support(ed) the 9/11 attacks say about the people in the buildings/Planes. Collateral Damage. Justification DONE!
Thank you minitrue and Abendland!!!!!!
Thank you minitrue and Abendland!!!!!!
This has been going on for so long.
----------------------------------
His Last Question
I answered my country’s call
And blitzkrieged across Iraq.
The stench of burning flesh
Is seared into my brain.
We were liberators, I was told,
And would be greeted with joy!
The misery and hate in their eyes
Is burned into my memory.
The children sometimes smile,
But are quickly hurried away.
Weapons fire rips through the street,
My reflexes drop me to the dirt.
Ambulances, bodies, civilians, children,
And sometimes a buddy of mine.
Automatic weapons and RPG’s
Do not pick and choose.
Explosions far and near disturb my rest.
The pervading heat dehydrates me.
Every man’s hand is turned against me here,
And I’m to continue “liberating.”
It’s tough at home, the President says,
They’ve got to cut my pay.
My tour’s extended to a year,
I’ve never seen my son.
I’ve seen a lot of babies die
And heard the women cry
And seen my buddies blown apart
by “liberated” men.
I’ve tried to do my duty
But, Lord, it’s getting hard.
The war is over, the Prez has said.
Does he tell that to the body bags?
I joined to get an education,
Agreed to do what I was told.
Was assured I’d be greeted with flowers,
And cheers, and tears of joy.
What I’ve seen smacks of madness,
I’ll never be the same.
My life is one last question,
May I go home, now? Please?
31 August 2003
Steve Osborn
-----------------------------------
Maybe rather than fearing people who came from war, we should help and heal them? Indirectly, fellow citizens, they did fight for your countries.
You and Rick and the rest of the republican trolls might want to re-enlist but don't expect any of my money or treasure when and if you return. Only the dead have seen the end of the war. I find that paid killers are thoroughly disgusting no matter who they work for. You cannot bomb your way to peace. I would not hire a killer and neither of you should hire yourselves out to kill with your toxic rhetoric. Wake UP!!!!!!!!!!!
The previous administration made up an excuse for killing for oil and you support that when you do not speak out against it. The 911 bombers were Saudi. There were no WMD. It was just another bad Republican joke and it was on you and all of those who support the war. Saddam told the truth. Scott Ritter told the truth. Hans Blick told the truth. Rumsfeld lied. Powell lied. Bush lied. Millions died. Making you happy to be a Newt Gingrich clone. How proud you must be. Nearly human I would suggest...
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
I apologize if you are, as you appear to be, slow witted and in a special education class. It doesnt take a genius to see the difference between supporting our troops and working against those who send them into needless wars. I think you are either a fool or have some dull witted agenda to think you can find support here for your silly rants.
To call those here republican trolls says volumes about you and nothing at all about reality. Please go away, you are certainly boring and a rather disturbing individual..No further responses from me will be forthcoming to such as you.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
Excuse-me, the U.S. mercenaries that are occupying Iraq and Afghanistan and bullying Pakistan are not doing anything positive for me, and they are wasting my tax moneys. I did not and still do not want them there. They are not defending me from these peoples, and I don't feel threatened by these peoples. The Iraqi military never set foot on U.S. soil, as far as I am aware. Even if it ever wanted to do such, it does not have the means to do so.
As for the so-called terrorists, it has never been established conclusively that Al Qaeda did 9/11: where is the white paper promised by Colin Powell establishing Al Qaeda's guilt beyond reasoable doubt, and why isn't the FBI holding Osama bin Laden responsible for 9/11 (see the FBI's most wanted list online)?
Furthermore, the attacks of 9/11, in my view, ought to be treated like a criminal matter, as these sorts of crimes have been and are treated in other countries (Spain, India, etc.). The very fact that BushCo considered these to be acts of war and turned them into an opportunity for waging war indefinitely, and refused to investigate them and botched up whatever investigation was finally set into place after the 9/11 families intervened, is already extremely suspicious.
Judah - One fights FOR his country when it is attacked.
To do otherwise is to be a tool of the oppressor.
These young men and women join the military because they think it is a way out, of whatever their problem is: poverty, low self esteem, their parents disapproval, etc.
And most of the 'democracies' of the world know this, and use this deperation/poverty draft to thier advantage.
This is why soldiers and civillians alike are dying for NOTHING in Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and dozens of other regions around the world.
It has nothing to do with defending their country.
It has everything to do with protecting the bottom line.
Walk in peace.
And for them, it is a way out, a way into a better life. Punishing people for choices they have no control over (like how they are deployed) is more wrong than calling them 'tools of the oppressor' and writing them off as human beings.
If progressive organizations were smart about recruiting, they would be actively courting ex-military who have been forcibly disillusioned in war zones. The majority of Americans are proud of having family members in military service, and attacking heroes is never a smart political move.
It's because of reactions like yours that I can't take the current progressive movement seriously. You come off as wanting to eat the cake (a prosperous society) and have it too (no dirty hands, military spending, or weapons industries). It may surprise you, but in America, military contracting is big business. Rather than bemoan how that has no place in your ideal society, you must work with what is there.
If you want to change that 'terrible' military society, you should be helping mentally scarred soldiers, publicizing their problems, calling for national debate over the secondary costs. You shouldn't be calling them uneducated human trash, because not only is it not true, but people may believe you and ignore 'veterans for change' movements based on irrational prejudice.
You need to get out more and read a book. Fully 70% of us Americans are putridly sick of the military killers who call themselves peacemakers and wear the American flag on their arm. I can walk for days and not find a single American who is happy about the death that the lies of the Bush Administration brought about. But we are really mad at American boys and girls who shame us by not standing up to those lies and instead enlisted in an all volunteer army so they could go abroad and kill. No, we are horrified at that.
During the Civil War we were horrified at their great grandfathers who thought they could enslave Blacks. We are not in any way proud of military killers. The stain of blood of these military killers will never wash out. It continues instead to embarrass and shame. Abu Ghriab, and the carpet bombings of Faluja stand out as monumental war crimes right alongside the Israeli attacks on Gaza and Lebanon. The American Army is just as disgusting as the Israeli Army. And this comes from one who was in the Six Day War of 1967. If you think the American Army is doing the work of Americans then you might leave for Iraq and stay there. No slack for murderers even if they once played quarterback on your high school football team. Be a man and stand up to war and the senseless slaughter of the innocent civilians of Iraq, Afghanistan, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Grenada, etc.etc.etc. Don't throw your life away just because you are having trouble figuring out what to do with yourself. Be a MAN. Climb out of that cave struggle toward the light.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
A made up statistic followed by straw-manning the hated Bush administration and some incorrect history. Concluding with an emotional appeal based on incorrect assumptions about me.
I can't argue with people who aren't in my reality. Too much of the progressive movement is like that, ignoring both history and political reality. By that I don't mean sacrificing principles for expediency, but refusing to understand the social/political/economic position our country is in.
Go read "The New Left, The Anti-Industrial Revolution" by Ayn Rand. That's a book you could use, I think. It makes the distinction between wanting to destroy a society and wanting to change a society.
Judah,
Ayn Rand, wow! It's like hearing Charlton Heston braying from the grave. Ah! To return to yesteryear with the metallic rutting of Hank Reardon and Dagney Taggart on a speed date. What deathless prose. Did you read the Reader's Digest condensation or did you plod through the paperback original? Now that I think of it there was a Cliff's Notes version or was it Classics Comics? I haven't had a thrill like that since my first Jeffery Archer, "Cain and Abel". Good fiction style for a quick read on the shuttle flight but this is not the kind of thing you want to base your life view upon unless you plan to assist Rush Limbaugh in his increasing senility. He will love you for being able to quote these line by line so maybe you are on to something. You appear to be a nit in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is a really progressive and liberal blog. People like you who read Rand generally hang out at GOP places. You are just needlessly muddying the waters here and should probably move on.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
I don't see any contradiction between much of what Rand advocates and a sensible progressive agenda. Obviously you haven't read her, or even understood the 'cliff notes' version.
I'll give you a quick version: see reality, deal with it, fight against those seeking to loot the country and corruption based on the 'power of pull' (i.e. nepotism, 'knowing people' rather than 'being competent'). I really view much of the progressive agenda as fighting against people who loot the government and people who use the government as a shell to loot the commons.
The GOP are hardcore looters with their obvious agenda of class warfare by stealing from the poor and giving tax breaks to the rich. I want the American Dream to exist. Why would I side with them?
The one who should 'move on' is you, since one of the most insidious ways of undermining a cause is defending it with false and stupid arguments. Are you sure aren't a Limbaugh fan in disguise?
You are certainly a troll. Take your feeble attempt to enlist a progressive web site into agreeing with your sick and untruthful rant and go back to whatever place you usually infest. You have been corrected on your stupid lies about Charles Ng and, without missing a beat you continue to post assumptions and hyperbolic nonsense about the opinions of people you obviously do not know...I would believe that 70% of Americans are sick of war,but certainly are smart enough to distinguish between those who make war and those who are trapped within it. I for one am certainly sick of you too.
In the immortal words of that wise and philosophic creature, Bugs Bunny, "what a maroon!!"
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
These soldiers are never too bright to begin with, in fact they are in the 55-75 IQ range as set by the continually lowered recruiting standards of the US and British governments. Normal IQ is 100 and people like Biden and Obama are in the 130 to 160 range. In another era they would have been placed in a bag with rocks and thrown over the side of the boat. But because we have wars which are fought by immigrants officered by white southern trash educated in "Military Schools" we have a problem. These are exceedingly stupid and desperate humans who are taught to muscle up and kill, kill, kill and NEVER to ask questions of their leaders or (God forbid) themselves.
Look at the Israelis who kill Palestinians at the rates of 150 to 200 to one after their two year indoctrination into the Israeli Army and you may see in their faces the sadly impaired genetic mistakes who will never be dentists or doctors or investment bankers or the makers of atomic bombs like Oppenheimer or theorist Einstein but who were sent instead by their US parents to Israel to defend the Israeli Zone of occupied Palestine. The truly evil in the world do kill their young and simple in this way.
The peaceful and intelligent will continually be threatened and betrayed by the mentally lame who are always ready to go for the bait of proving themselves even if it means placing themselves and their countrymen into harms way so through their "heroic sacrifice" they will be able to grasp something that could only be achieved by proper special education and disabled care and treatment at an early age. Of course it is easier for elites to offer them up for cannon fodder rather than to provide a proper therapeutic environment when they are young and able to be treated. Instead they go to "war" and come back ready and armed and trained to play "DOOM" in real life in their homeland with liberals as the targets. As Reverend White said, "God Damn America" and the racist rednecks who run it from the NY corporate suites of the elites and their barbecues in Texas and Kennebunkport, and Antigua.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
The soldiers don't deserve this type of contempt. If we are so smart, we would be providing peaceful and productive pathways for people who don't score well on an IQ test. An IQ score is not a complete measure of intelligence. Compassion and common sense count too.
Joe
I wonder if you are as offensive in person as this post would indicate?
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/enlstandards_4.htm
Education
For enlistment purposes, the military breaks education into three overall categories: Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3:
Tier 1 - High School Graduate
This means a diploma, not a GED. It also includes those who have completed at least one semester of full-time college (defined as 15 semester credit hours or more). The vast majority of enlistees (well over 90 percent) fall into this category.
High School Diploma: Based on attendance and completion of a 12 year or grade day program of classroom instruction; issued from the school where the individual completed all the program requirements.
Adult Education Diploma: Secondary school diploma awarded on the basis of attending and completing an adult education or diploma "external" program, regardless of whether the diploma was issued by a state or by a secondary or post-secondary educational institution. For adult education diploma holders to be categorized Tier I high school graduates, their educational program must include attendance which is comparable to that of traditional high schools. Diploma holders possessing attendance not deemed comparable, and/or have been credited attendance based on some form of test-based credential, are usually classified as Tier II status.
The Army allows applicants who is currently enrolled in an adult education or college program, and who further is expected to graduate or attain the required credits within 365 days may to enlist in the Delayed Enlistment Program (DEP).
Completed One Semester of College: A person who attends a college or university and successfully completes at least 15 semester or 20 quarter hours of college-level credit. "Successfully completed" means that the individual earned college-level credits (level 100 or higher) toward a degree in higher education from an institution listed in the degree granting section of the current version of the Accredited Institutions of Post-secondary Education (AIPE), published by the American Council on Education for the Council of Post Secondary Accreditation. NOT all institutions listed in the current AIPE are considered as offering college-level credits. The credits must have been earned through actual classroom participation at the institution awarding the credits.
Note: For the Army, completion of college courses below the 100 level will be accepted for enlistment if the course is clearly identified as a college level course and credit will be recognized by the college towards graduation and degree completion requirements. An original letter on the college letterhead stationary is required to verify the status of courses completed.
Note: Under a special test program, the Army is treating home school graduates as Tier I. See Home School Program article for more details.
Tier 2 - Alternative Credential Holder
The services limit the number of Tier II candidates it will allow to enlist each year. In the Air Force, the limit is less than one percent each year. In such cases, the applicant must score a minimum of 50 on the AFQT to qualify (Note: The "AFQT" is the overall ASVAB score).
The Army will allow up to 10 percent each year to be Tier II candidates, but they must score a minimum of 50 on the AFQT.
The Marines will only allow about 5 percent each year to be Tier II, and the Navy about 10 percent. Like the Army and Air Force, Tier II recruits must score a minimum of 50 on the AFQT to qualify.
The Coast Guard only accepts Tier 2 candidates if they have prior military service, and even then requires them to score higher on the AFQT (50 for prior Coast Guard Service, 65 for prior service in other branches).
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
It should be remembered that one of the worst serial killer/rapists in the history of the US was former US Marine Charles Ng.
Because he was of Viatmanese descent, he was used to infiltrate and assasinate many VietNamese leaders and innocent civillians.
When he was eventually returned home to the US, he had NO psychological evaluation or councilling, and was simply discharged into the larger population.
Part of past and present (and ongoing) US military training is to instill the equation of violence and death = sexual pleasure.
When Charles Ng came home, he still had this programming intact, but no longer had the release of targeted assasination. So he and Leonard Lake, another US veteran of Viet Nam, teamed up to kidnap, rape, torture and kill innocent women along the US west coast.
He was identified by a handful of women who survived his attacks or who managed to escape. A manhunt (not very effective) was launched, but it was a mall security guard in Calgary, Alberta, Canada who recognised and arrested Mr. Ng in the end.
It was later theorised by psychologists that Charles Ng selected white women to feel the brunt of his attacks because of the rage he felt at having to obey orders to kill people from his parent culture.
Now multiply that level of nightmare walking around on the streets of every US city when the troops from Iraq and Afghanistan finally come home.
Not blowback, erroneous commentary. Ng was born in Hong Kong and I guess never spoke Vietnamese. He served less than a year in the Marines. He had a troubled youth.
Galen, I don't know where you got this story but it looks totally false based on what I've seen.
EDIT: Posted before I saw RR's comment.
Are you certain of what you post?
http://www.biography.com/search/article.do?id=11735781
Charles Ng Biography (1961-)
Serial killer. Born Charles Chitat Ng on December 24th, 1961, in Hong Kong, China. The son of a wealthy businessman, Ng was a rebellious teenager who was frequently caught stealing and was expelled from several schools. At 18, Ng obtained a student visa to study in the United States, where he briefly attended the College of Notre Dame in Belmont, California, before dropping out. After being charged in relation to a hit-and-run offense, Ng lied about his birthplace and joined the Marines. Once again he was caught stealing, this time military weapons, and he served three years in Leavenworth Prison.
Upon his release, Ng moved in with Leonard Lake, a deviant whom he had met prior to serving at Leavenworth. He and Lake began a campaign of abduction, rape and murder based from Lake's remote cabin. Altogether, the bodies of seven men, three women, two baby boys and forty-five pounds of bone fragments would be recovered from the cabin site.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
That's a form of blowback, I suppose.
"Gentle face"??? Did you post the right photo? He looks like a gangbanger to me.
That is a racist remark.
---USAn---
More ageist I suspect.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
I find some of what is posted above a hackneyed admixture of supposition, hyperbole and ,while I believe it may be well meaning, very insulting to thousands upon thousands of people who cope with a war scenario and lead rather normal lives.
World War II saw an entire generation thrown into the brutality of war and those folks went on to build a great nation. This is as far from an endorsement of war as one may get, and those familiar with my posts know that full well. But I find, perhaps because I am one who saw the elephant, as have some poster's here as well, Thomas More being one in particular, I think the posts above paint with far too broad a brush.
Our troops are treated badly by our policies to be certain, and there are a few, like the one pictured in the above article, who are damaged by that experience. But seeking to put every soldier, sailor or marine who served in a war zone as a potential psychopath, and some efforts above unthinkingly do exactly that, is about as dumb as it gets, almost Bushian in stupidity, sorry to say.
I deplore our new president's stated intention of throwing even more of our boys and girls into the cauldron of war but I honor those who see military duty as an obligation of a citizen, and many in our nation hold to that tradition. Even more of late are entering the military because the economy offers them nothing at all.
I am about as far to the left as one sees on this forum, I deplore capitalism, hate war, despise privilege and eliteism but one must focus ones criticism where it will do the most good and not dishonor an entire movement, on the politicians that order war not upon the young people who fight them. The son of a dear friend has served three tours, two in Iraq and one in Afghanistan, as a US Marine. He was and is a gentle kid, a good husband, good father and decent person. He is mirrored thosuands of times around our nation and in Britain as well I am certain.
I am sorry for the problems this young man in the article is going through, and I wish him a speedy and complete recovery, but I speak out against the unthinking generalizations so far expressed here, one of the serious problems progressives encounter and one which keeps them in the minority. Use this person as another reasont o abhor and fear war, but do not lump all within his category.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
WWII veterans came back to a GI bill which provided education for employment and time to reintegrate into society. additionally WWII was a total mobilization.
Red Rick - thank you for your common sense, objectivity and compassion. I am a Vietnam vet; was troubled for many, many years. Many of my brethren came back whole, mentally and physically. The point is the war - the leadership - not those the system implants to do its dirty business.
Again, thank you.
What you are missing "odoco" is that when you(?) and I (actually) were in the Viet Nam War there were IQ standards which were much much higher then they are now. The guys who are being sent to war now don't even have to be US citizens. Many of the immigrants at the Mexico border being caught by Joe Arpiao are being told that it is either prison or the US Army. They are being placed into special units of Spanish speakers to go to Iraq and kill. When these mercenaries are returned home finally, they take up residence in the US they become police officers whose only qualification is that they know how to shoot. They won't even be able to understand you when you say you are a Vet. They won't understand when you say the password when they draw down on you. You are just the target. You need to wise up quickly because the problem is here now and we don't have any more time for you to get smart.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
I keep a sort of collection of Joe Arpaio atrocities, including the use of torture at the Maricopa County jail. I haven't heard about this one before. I wouldn't think it would be legal to impress border crossers into our army. Do you have a source for this?
Siderealm - evidently you know everything there is to know on the subject of vets. I live in the midwest - not on the border - and we have lots of kids - high school graduates - who join the Guard as a way of getting money for college. Many, many of these kids, my former students, have been to Iraq, some on multiple tours. I don't doubt what you say about mercenaries from foreign lands, I understand that, but they do not comprise the entire military force as you would lead one to think. Take a look at the membership of Iraq Vets Against the War - think they were all foreign mercenaries?
Odoco: If the same children decided to start dealing a little heroin in order to make some money for college I just bet you would object. But if they decide to go off to war to kill people,... you are OK with that?
What kind of values do you folks have out there in the midwest?
And you are teaching these kids in a public school or is it a Bible School? How could you do such a thing?
They would be better off dealing heroin in Kansas City than killing people in the Middle East. Sending them off to war is the worst thing you could do. In other words the point is not the mercenaries it is the process of softening up the population through your privileged position as a teacher and fighting the infiltration of the military into the schools through ROTC and the National Guard or recruiting officers roaming the campus and lying to youngsters about the glories of war. Have you organized any boycotts or demonstrations of the local recruiters or do you tacitly allow them "their space". Do you know of the Womem in Black or Code Pink? Do you need information about resistance? Your students need this information before they make the biggest mistake of their life.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
It is rather difficult to treat you with any sort of respect. Your opinion of our enlisted troops, and those who joined the National Guard for monthly meetings and two weeks in the summer is so distorted as to reflect badly, not on them but on you.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so." Bertrand Russell
Pop Quiz!!
What was the name of the last great world spanning empire that started using foriegn auxiallries and mercenaries in place of it's own army, promising the provincials full staus as citizens?
And I am pretty sure that the government of this empire had grown lax and incredibly corrupt, while the economy collapsed, due in no small part to a massive trade imbalance with another empire called 'China', and wars in Asia Minor and Judea that flared out of control, all during a period of religeous upheaval caused by some minor upstart monothesim from the sands of a desert.
This same empire had gone from having roads and water delivery systems that linked almost every part of the empire to it's capital, but the roads and water systems had collapsed and been caniballized due to disrepair and neglect.
And all this during a time of ecological upheaval and rampant plague.
What was the name of that empire?...
Oh yeah... Rome.
And which empire was used as the blueprint for the foundation of the US empire?
Oh yeah...Rome.
Those who will not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.
Times up, kiddies. Time to put away your toys.
Walk in peace.
You join for the excitement, the patriotism, the adventure, the job, the college funds, the discipline, the travel, to be like a movie hero, the uniform and the girls, etc. and all too often you end up living under a bridge.
It's too bad those like Beharry can't somehow be deprogrammed, but since they're considered the disposable ones by the governments of their countries, and forgotten once they're no longer on the battlefields, I don't suppose anyone has ever given deprogramming a thought.
Unfortunately these young people signing up for war don't have a clue what their future holds if they are lucky enough to survive that war. But even if no one signed up for it, those warmongers who lead the governments would just draft them anyway.
Other civilizations de-program their returning warriors. It takes time and compassion.
The gangsters that are running America just dump their trained killers on our streets.
This is the type of guy returning to the USA from Iraq and Afghanistan. He is going to hurt you.
What are you going to do to him, for him?
I only wish young adults like CPL Beharry could find different careers besides the killing trades. He who lives by the sword dies by the sword, and those who carry and use guns must realize the inherent risks. I have long since lost any confidence in my Canadian government to lead our service personnel into worthy battles. As a public school teacher I try to do my best not to teach my students to trust their federal politicians, nor for that matter to trust the taser-happy national police force, the RCMP.
difficult to read these articles. they use painful biographical details to efface other details.
like, is there a connection b/n PTSD and the utter dishonesty w/which war (certainly the GWOT) is sold? you hear all about the honorable & heroic in this piece, saving your buddies and all that and all the accolades and awards, but what about the shameful, criminal, and monstrous, endemic in any war zone? does that have any effect on PTSD?
(recommended reading: Achilles in Vietnam).
If that is the face of a gentle man I hope never to see the face of a killer. The tragedy of soldiery is that soldiers are not bad people, they are ruined people. The best purpose this guy's life might serve at this point is to dissuade future children from being enticed into the military, though given that he is still caught up in the perverse romance of it all I don't think that is what he is up to.
The psychology of soldiery has long been understood. Aggression toward an enemy, the willingness to slaughter others without mercy, goes back to back with protectiveness and loyalty to ones comrades in arms. Love based on hate, or hate based on love. Training these people requires nothing more than tweaking some basic and universal Freudian psychology. Unfortunately after the mission, after the hit squads have returned from procuring whatever loot or respect the fatherland requires, they don't have a science for making them normal again.
I don't go near ex-soldiers, especially the recently returned. I don't want them close to my home or my family. I feel terrible about what has happened to them. I wish there were some place we could send them, muscles, guns, medals, tattoos and all, where they could remain happily at war without menacing society. Unfortunately they don't even make good cops. The lucky ones, I suppose, cripple along through their lives without hurting anybody but themselves.
Bring America Back !!!!.............By all means let us praise and commend and empathize with the service and sacrifice of CPL Beharry ! Many years ago, the term Post-traumatic Stress Disorder was coined to describe what took place at CPL Beharry's traffic accident !! Flashback Recall !! Road Rage !!
****Let us all recall and remember well the true cause, the root reason the Corporal suffered his pain and anguish, that being a man named President George W. Bush, USA, who dragged our UK allies into Iraq...Tony Blair swearing to the same lies, falsifications and treasonous behaviours in the run-up to the so called cover fantasy--War on Terror !! Let us put the blood, carnage, and traumatic injuries in the right hands=====Bush and Blair, war monger chums to the end.
Remember 9/11 !! Wake up America, Wake Up, England, 'We Will Never Forget' !
"Let us all recall and remember well the true cause, the root reason the Corporal suffered his pain and anguish, that being a man named:"
Ralph Nader, the man who elected Bush.
Now that was as trollish as it gets. So you are here to split the opposition with lies about Ralph Nader. Any port in a storm I guess. I wish football would come back sooner than August we need to have these trolls move on to a more satisfying blood sport.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
What lies?
Nader split the democratic vote in 2000 and we got stuck with Bush.
Do you remember all the Naderites were saying that Al Gore was as bad as Bush? Do you see what these fools cost us?
If the country had a large democratic majority and we lost voters to Nader (but we could still defeat the republicans) that would be one thing. But the country is split 50/50, so when third parties run, they cost the Democrats votes, but not the Republicans.
More democrats in Florida voted for George W. Bush than voted for Nader. Period. ... You illustrate exactly why there cannot be a 'viable' third party-- because anyone disagreeing with the two parties is seen as 'splitting' them.
People voted for Nader BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT HE WAS THE BETTER CANDIDATE. As they very well should have. Period.
Newsflash America... that's you joehope-- THIS is not the way it HAS to be-- People like yourselves perpetuate this system. Either start thinking or stop breeding (preferably both).
Just ignore JoeHope...
His modus operandi, consciously or not, is to hijack comment threads and steer them away from the topic of the article or conversation...
By tossing out albatrosses and red herrings and straw man arguements... He is a reactionary Dem party apologist who is stuck on blaming one of several third party candidates for being a spoiler in a rigged election... Despite the overwhelming abundance of information, explanation, and links and references to the contrary, Joe Hope maintains the Dem party line that Nader equals Bush/Palin...