Israel Threatens War on Gaza and Iran

~ LETTO ~

Perhaps you've forgotten ?

Israel is a Zionist secular country, which has always been run as such, by your own admissions ( not by Rabbis ).

Although it contains and encourages immigration of many Jews, it's not religiously based nor following Torah law , which precludes return until the Messiah comes.

If Israel were a Jewish state, than Skokie IL ( 60077 ) would be Jewish city, which it is clearly NOT.

Namaste

~ LETTO ~

Your assertion of my hate has no evidence, while the opposite ( your hate ) is demonstrably true is many of your posts herein and elsewhere.

I do not hate war criminals, and basically I am an advocate for justice, which is over a half century late in coming. I don't even hate mass murders and child molesters, as I acknowledge their intrinsic humanity, even if psychopathically incapable of normal emotion.

I do believe the evidence that Barbara Bush is a child molester, and the indirect cause of much of the world's current suffering, by shaping bu$h!t into his atrocious form.

You obviously ( and Zionists in general ) condone Begin's bombing of the King David in 1946, as I gave you several chances to reciprocate about your lambasting the Palestinians for doing the same thing ( killing Jewish civilians ).

¿ All the evidence of your own writing points out that you deny the humanity and rights of ALL Palestinians ( in what you likely see as a "just" war: stealing another country's land, and declaring it your own )?

Your feigned sincerity has been hardly convincing, although some of the "proper" words ( you a win/win peacemaker ? ) do spew forth, I'll give you that much.

Namaste
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself» — ML King

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves, I don't hate anyone.

You Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves, hate the Jewish state.

Old Jeffersonian June 7th, 2008 12:48 pm

CD, am I blacklisted? my last several posts have just disappeared and when I try to repost, I get the message "You've already said that."?

Lately, including any html tags in your comment will have the post rejected by wordpress...

~ LETTO ~

Perhaps it is you who does so love to hate, while hating to be wrong.

And perhaps it is then your own hate infested eyes cast upon me, and accuse me of being hate blinded?

Never once have I used that word (until this posting), or attempted to severe our vital human connection, …

… in fact I quoted a laudable hero of Peace MLK, about how LOVE is the solution for Israel and Palestinian "conflict", and that the descending death spiral of attempting to murder hate and recrimination fells the perpetrator, victim and all of our fellow humans -- with the unending vicious violent dark circle -- while only the LIGHT of peace and LOVE can pull us out of the abyss.

__ "When one finds oneself in a hole,
__ the first thing is to stop digging"

Perhaps hate is a shovel and LOVE a helping outreached hand to pull you into the light?

Perhaps the parable of the Good Samaritan is all about neighborly acceptance and forgiveness, through LOVE - while hate leaves Israel wounded and bleeding while the world passes you by ?

So, if you find hate in my words, it is clear that you would similarly find hate everywhere that you look, especially into those you assert are your "deadly enemies".

Hate and enemies are mere word constructions and thoughts, contrasted to the spiritually un-manifested power the enlivens and powers this universe. Have you no wonder how a body can heal "itself" nor a forest grow in beautiful perfection?

Perhaps it is your own "self"-truncation and denial of any inner spirit that drives your hazardous and suffering path, as you've forgotten or dismissed the childlike innocence and peace of earlier years ( when God's light flowed through your own playfulness ) ?

Please do consider that:
__ No one is w/o love, while
__ many are w/o hate.

Namaste

Instead of doing all this bitching we should be figuring out what to do ---even if it seems hopeless or "ineffective". Send letters to Congress critters, Barack Obama, his supporters and so on, saying to back Carters Peace initiative. Send letters to any and all Israeli's telling them to stop their government. Get out in the street! All streets and so on. But violence does work. We have to prepare ourselves for revolution. We have to prepare to fight back.

It should be plain that no other method will work, only violence or the threat of violence works.

culicomorpha,
- Hate is the path to the dark side.
- Also some smart man once said "You shell not lie."

Letto: You reap what you sow. If you advocate destruction, do not be surprised if it comes back to haunt you.

__ cherry picking anti-Israeli biased MEMRI "translations"

DEATH TO ISRAEL is NOT cherry picking. the words "MAT" (Chess mat) and ISRAIL (Israel) needs no additional translation.
What is so "cherry picking" about a blunt call DEATH TO ISRAEL?
Have you lost your mind?

__ attempting to demean a real civil leader, like Gandhi

Not true. I explained that Gandhi's pacifism is not always the answer. And it isn't

__ totally blowing that "wipe Israel" crap, right off the table

There are dozens of speeches regarding the end of Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

__ well researched proof of exaggerated marketing of Holocaust "legend"

Here is a link from Al Jazeera
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=17019
Ahmadinejad told a crowd in the southern city of Zahedan: "They have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews"

Do you know what is the meaning of the word "fabricated"????
Do you deny that Ahmadinejad denied the Holocaust?

__ who has the nukes, and clearly wants to go to war ?

Who has nukes for more than 40 years and never used them? And who is developing nuklear capability and declare on many many occasions that he wants to see a members of the UN DEAD?

__ How many bunker busters do the Iranian's have?

What will happen if a religious fanatic who claim he wants to see someone DEAD, and that he believe that if he die in a holy way he'll go to heaven? DO you really wants that guy to have nukes?

__ Did you miss that long post about Arch Bishp Tutu's observations ?

Tutu's observation is that 19 Palestinians who were killed by error, are far more important than the mass murder of more 2.3 millions blacks in Sudan and 5 millions killed in Congo and Rwanda..

Your hate is blinding you Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves

~ LETTO ~

Here's the full context:

"killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs…
___ It would have aroused the world
___ and the people of Germany…
___ As it is they succumbed
___ anyway in their millions."

And as far as his suggestions for preventing the Holocaust, how would we ever know ? Most Jews went quietly, which is beyond non-violent protest ( which you call pacifist ) and bordering on total resignation.

Isn't it a part of the new Zionist re-framing of the actual event -- to make it appear that the Jews fought back -- right, and didn't go into the gas chambers passively ?

If that were the case, perhaps you have some evidence of those approaches that were so much more successful than what Gandhi proposed ? Were millions somehow saved?

I doubt that you read much ( if any ) of his own words -- especially those above about Israel & Palestine, or peaceful reconciliation ( per MLK quote ) -- as that might conflict with your tightly held beliefs.

------------ BTW, It's just so convenient ----------
how your "talking points" just vanish in response
to real evidence to the contrary, I wonder why ?

For example;

__ cherry picking anti-Israeli biased MEMRI "translations"
__ attempting to demean a real civil leader, like Gandhi
__ totally blowing that "wipe Israel" crap, right off the table
__ well researched proof of exaggerated marketing of Holocaust "legend"
__ who has the nukes, and clearly wants to go to war ?
__ How many bunker busters do the Iranian's have?
__ Did you miss that long post about Arch Bishp Tutu's observations ?

Perhaps, your failed attempts at justifying a totally untenable and riotously flimsy myth of Palestinians somehow _ n o t _ deserving peace and justice, is now clear even to you?

You appear to me like a pitching machine that got mixed up at the factory, so instead of ( logical ) baseballs coming out, you fling ( illogical ) banana peels at the batter. And even when effectively hit, there's little time to discuss one before another comes zooming out.

What type of game are you playing ?

Or is the holey purpose just to trip us up, to have us slip quietly away ?

Namaste

Actually, Letto, I am a transsexual woman, and this is where Iran is on trans issues, which is even better than where the US is (and most of the world, in fact), and no doubt Israel:

"Iran has between 15,000 and 20,000 transsexuals, according to official statistics, although unofficial estimates put the figure at up to 150,000. Iran carries out more gender change operations than any country in the world besides Thailand. Sex changes have been legal since the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, spiritual leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution, passed a fatwa authorising them nearly 25 years ago. Whereas homosexuality is considered a sin, transsexuality is categorised as an illness subject to cure. While the government seeks to keep its approval quiet, state support has increased since Ahmadinejad took office in 2005. His government has begun providing grants of £2,250 for operations and further funding for hormone therapy. It is also proposing loans of up to £2,750 to allow those undergoing surgery to start their own businesses."

So, I would say that Iran, again, is in many ways more secular than Israel or even the United States. Here, we are outcasts, as I'm sure in your country.

Try again...

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

What happens to Gays in Iran?
http://images.google.ca/images?gbv=2&hl=en&q=Gay+Iran

What happens to gays in Israel?
http://images.google.ca/images?gbv=2&hl=en&q=Gay+Israel

What will happen to a Muslim who convert to another religion in Iran?
Death

What will happens to someone in Israel who convert from any religion to any other religion?
Nothing.

What sentence was put on Suliman Rushdi? By whom and for what crime?

culicomorpha "You are saying *Iran* is is a country run by religious fanatics??? Hahaha It is far more secular than Israel. As far as I can tell, the Israeli's have spent waaaay too much time in the sun and it has fried their brains."

Is that so?

How many woman were stoned to death in Iran just for seeing another man? (Not even sleeping with another man)
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Stonning+Iran&btnG=Search+Images&...

And how many woman executed for seeing another man in Israel?
0

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves, Clarification:. I didn't try to paint Gandhi as some kind of anti-semitic clown. Gandhi was not an anti-semitic.

What I meant was that Gandhi was a pacifist and that Pacifism is not always the best course of action. The Nazi holocaust is one example where pacifism was wrong.

I didn't say that Gandhi is not a great man. He was a great man, and he managed very well against the British.. I kind of doubt that his way would have worked against Nazi Germany's gas chambers or against Ahmadinejad's nukes.

Pacifisms is not always the best course of action. And the theoretical example of a city with a million pacifists, where one person with a knife kills them all, shows that pacifism is not always the answer.

As for what Gandhi's quote:
"Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs."

If I'm out of context - What was his real context?

~ LETTO ~

Again your cherry pit picking is beneath notice, but FIRST I will defend Mahatman Gandhi's good words.

___ BTW, this posting is just crammed full
___ of anti-zionistic expansion information,
___ [ denoted 〓〓__ …, ◆◆__ …, ★★__ …, and ☆☆__ … ]
___ from the world's leading non-violent peace expert.

Thank you so much for providing Palestinians a chance to make use of his powerful words, to press for the peace and justice that they deserve.

But, you're showing your true colors to have clipped off the CRUCIAL sentence after the absurdity of out-of-context baiting, so regularly used to skew reality in "support" of distorted Zionistic propaganda. Prior to rolling out that omission, perhaps the reason he was 8-years later speaking in that manner is appropriate?

Here's two sets of Gandhi's words: [i.] in 1936, and then again [ii.] in 1946, after Hitler's death:

___ [i.] ________ Gandhi in India, in His Own Words _______________
edited by Martin Green
Segaon, November 20, 1938

"… My sympathies are all with the Jews. … They have been the untouchables of Christianity. … Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. …

〓〓__But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me.__〓〓

The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine.

◆◆__Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French.__◆◆
…
But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have gone. And he is doing it with religious zeal. For he is propounding a new religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the name of which any inhumanity becomes an act of humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter.

★★__The crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is being visited upon his whole race with unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany, to prevent the wanton persecution of a whole race, would be completely justified. But I do not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is therefore outside my horizon or province.__★★

Germany is showing to the world how efficiently violence can be worked when it is not hampered by any hypocrisy or weakness masquerading as humanitarianism. It is also showing how hideous, terrible and terrifying it looks in its nakedness.

Can the Jews resist this organized and shameless persecution? Is there a way to preserve their self-respect, and not to feel helpless, neglected and forlorn? I submit there is. No person who has faith in a living God need feel helpless or forlorn. Jehovah of the Jews is a God more personal than the God of the Christians, the Mussalmans or the Hindus, though, as a matter of fact in essence, He is common to all and one without a second and beyond description. But as the Jews attribute personality to God and believe that He rules every action of theirs, they ought not to feel helpless.

☆☆__If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment. And for doing this, I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance but would have confidence that in the end the rest are bound to follow my example. If one Jew or all the Jews were to accept the prescription here offered, he or they cannot be worse off than now. And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy which no number of resolutions of sympathy passed in the world outside Germany can.__☆☆

Indeed, even if Britain, France and America were to declare hostilities against Germany, they can bring no inner joy, no inner strength. The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities.

〓〓__But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the godfearing death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep.__〓〓

It is hardly necessary for me to point out that it is easier for the Jews than the Czechs to follow my prescription. And they have in the Indian satyagraha campaign in South Africa an exact parallel.

◆◆__There the Indians occupied precisely the same place that the Jews occupy in Germany. The persecution had also a religious tinge.__◆◆

President Kruger used to say that the white Christians were the chosen of God and Indians were inferior beings created to serve the whites. A fundamental clause in the Transvaal constitution was that there should be no equality between the whites and coloured races including Asiatics. There too the Indians were consigned to ghettos described as locations. The other disabilities were almost of the same type as those of the Jews in Germany. The Indians, a mere handful, resorted to satyagraha without any backing from the world outside or the Indian Government. Indeed the British officials tried to dissuade the satyagrahis from their contemplated step. World opinion and the Indian Government came to their aid after eight years of fighting. And that too was by way of diplomatic pressure not of a threat of war.

★★__But the Jews of Germany can offer satyagraha under infinitely better auspices than the Indians of South Africa. The Jews are a compact, homogeneous community in Germany. They are far more gifted than the Indians of South Africa. And they have organized world opinion behind them. I am convinced that if someone with courage and vision can arise among them to lead them in non-violent action, the winter of their despair can in the twinkling of an eye be turned into the summer of hope.

And what has today become a degrading man-hunt can be turned into a calm and determined stand offered by unarmed men and women possessing the strength of suffering given to them by Jehovah. It will then be a truly religious resistance offered against the godless fury of dehumanised man. The German Jews will score a lasting victory over the German gentiles in the sense that they will have converted the latter to an appreciation of human dignity. They will have rendered service to fellow-Germans and proved their title to be the real Germans as against those who are today dragging, however unknowingly, the German name into the mire.__★★

☆☆__And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart. They can offer satyagraha in front of the Arabs and offer themselves to be shot or thrown into the Dead Sea without raising a little finger against them. They will find the world opinion in their favour in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them.

I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing they way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home including Palestine not by aggression but by loving service. A Jewish friend has sent me a book called The Jewish Contribution to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a record of what the Jews have done to enrich the world's literature, art, music, drama, science, medicine, agriculture, etc. Given the will, the Jew can refuse to be treated as the outcaste of the West, to be despised or patronized. He can command the attention of the world by being man, the chosen creation of God, instead of being man who is fast sinking to the brute and forsaken by God. They can add to their many contributions the surpassing contribution of non-violent action."__☆☆

___ [ii.] ________ The Life of Mahatma Gandhi _________________
by Louis Fischer
The Nazi press assaulted Gandhi savagely for these words. It threatened reprisals against India. "I should rank myself a coward," he replied, "if for fear of my country or myself or Indo-German relations being harmed, I hesitated to give what I felt in the innermost recesses of my heart to be one hundred percent sound advice."

The missionaries questioned him closely on his statements about the Jews. "To be truly non-violent," he said, "I must love [my adversary] and pray for him even when he hits me." The Jews should pray for Hitler. "If even one Jew acted thus, he would save his self-respect and leave an example which, if it became infectious, would save the whole of Jewry and leave a rich heritage to mankind besides."

I mentioned the subject to Gandhi in 1946 when Hitler was dead. "Hitler," Gandhi said, "killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs…
___ It would have aroused the world
___ and the people of Germany…
___ As it is they succumbed
___ anyway in their millions."

The full text is found here: die_meistersinger.tripod.com/gandhi9.html, although I edited out very little.

++++++++++++++++++++ L E T T O ++++++++++++++++++++++

¿ You would twist such a great man's words in some futile attempt to undercut his humanity ( from the above quotes ), AS IF he were some kind of anti-semitic clown ?

Who's looking like one now ?

I guess one could also add, live by the word, and so die by the word, too ?

Namaste

Letto said:

"culicomorpha "
1) Israel has many nukes
2) Iran has no nukes
Conclusion: Pre-emptive war by Israel is not justified."

True, True, and NOT True."

WTF? OK. Whatever. Apparently logic known since the Greeks does not apply to Israel.

Your subsequent points were totally bogus. You are saying *Iran* is is a country run by religious fanatics??? Hahaha It is far more secular than Israel. As far as I can tell, the Israeli's have spent waaaay too much time in the sun and it has fried their brains.

Since Israel seems to be calling for the destruction of Iran, this seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

"If Iran's leadership will gain access to nukes - there'll be a real risk of a nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel."

Let me remind you of my original post: Israel *HAS* nukes. Not when, not if, *HAS*. Do you understand the difference?

You know what the irony is here? I am part Jewish by descent. But I abhor what you have done here Letto, and I abhor what Israel has done to the Palestinians. I abhor the fact that someone I knew, Rachel Corrie, was run over by a bulldozer and had her brain crushed in the attempt by the Israeli government to destroy the people of Palestine. And if the state of Israel attacks Iran, I don't think you can comprehend what will happen to how people around the world see and think of Jews. I know how I feel, and you are only confirming my perceptions.

~ LETTO ~

Your "cherry pit picking" Zionist propaganda tool is below dead sea level brine in the wounds of ALL.

Regardless of questionable veracity, it is a crime against PEACE to engage in war - for this trivial manner of verbal engagement. Particularly, in comparison of rabid rabbinical rabble rousing - to forement Zionist expansionism.

You might consider looking for the best in others, and being surprized -- as compared to looking for the worse -- and becoming even more righteously "right".

Namaste

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves

Pacifism is a noble idea. It may have worked for Gandhi against the British, but it's not always the morally superior course of action.

Theoretically, a city with one million pacifists could be annihilate by one person with a knife.
What is a higher moral standard, let 1 million people die? or Kill one person (The one with the knife?)

---

Would you have taken the following advise from Gandhi's?

"Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs."

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves: " ~ LETTO ~ Do you have any additional information on the translator used ?"

Here it is the "Death to Israel" link again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo
Listen to it carefully. I, myself, Letto, clearly heard Ahmadinejad saying something that sounded like "Mat ba(r) Israil."

The word 'Israil' means Israel. (Which is identical to Arabic, a language I do speak, at least partly)
The word "Mat" is well know from the famous Persian game Chess Mat. Where Chess (Shah) = King and Mat = Dead.

Moreover, there are dozen of other clear death, dead corpse, holocaust denial, and calls for ethnic cleansing of Jews (To Germany, Austria, Canada and Alaska) statements.

=== Dr Martin Luther King, provide us with
=== the solution to VIOLENCE:

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Namaste
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself» — ML King

____ For those wanting
____ the reader's digest version:

"Not only that, but MEMRI selects bad apples from the Muslim world and blows them out of proportion to give a distorted impression of the Muslim and Arab worlds. Also, it claims to be a non-political non-partisan organisation, BUT almost all its founders had served in the IDF and the intelligence services."

"Also, where MEMRI translates the girl as saying "We will annihilate the Jews", Whitaker and others, including Arabic speakers used by CNN, insist that based on careful listening to the low quality video clip, the girl is variously interpreted as saying, "The Jews will[are] shoot[ing at] us" or "The Jews are killing us."[31] Whitaker concluded: "The effect of this is to devalue everything Memri translates - good and bad alike. Responsible news organisations can't rely on anything it says without going back and checking its translations against the original Arabic.""

Namaste

~ LETTO ~

Do you have any additional information on the translator used ?

I went to their web site and found a very brief blurb:
____________________
The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) was founded in 1998 in Washington, DC to bridge the language gap between the Middle East and the West by monitoring, translating, and studying Arab, Iranian and Turkish media, schoolbooks, and religious sermons. MEMRI is headquartered in Washington, D.C. and has branches in Baghdad, Tokyo and Jerusalem, and a staff of over 70 working around the globe. MEMRI's research is translated into English, German, French, Italian, and Spanish with a subscriber list of over 75,000. MEMRI is a 501 (c)3 organization and is incorporated in Washington, D.C.
____________________

But, looking further, on wiki, we FIND the suggestion of severe BIAS:

====================
Staff
When founded in 1998, MEMRI's staff of seven included three who had formerly served in Military Intelligence in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF)[3][4].

and , more:

Criticism

MEMRI's work has been attacked on three grounds: that their work is biased; that they choose articles to translate selectively so as to give an unrepresentative view of the media they are reporting on; and that their translations are sometimes inaccurate.
[edit]Bias
Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian newspaper in the United Kingdom, has been one of the most outspoken critics of MEMRI, writing: "My problem with Memri is that it poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation,"[5] and that "the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel."[4] Whitaker has also complained that "MEMRI's website does not mention you [Carmon] or your work for Israeli intelligence. Nor does it mention MEMRI's co-founder, Meyrav Wurmser, and her extreme brand of Zionism.... Given your political background, it's legitimate to ask whether MEMRI is a trustworthy vehicle."[5]
Leila Hudson writes in the journal Middle East Policy, "MEMRI simultaneously highlights stories emphasizing the most extreme stereotypes of clashing Arab and Islamic civilization, which would not otherwise come to light. In effect, it amplifies the noise that most effectively distracts from the projects of engagement and negotiation. This is compounded by the interlinked series of websites, blogs and forums on the right wing of the think-tank periphery. Like the Israeli disinformation site Debka.com, MEMRI produces and amplifies noise, while buttressing the weak 'clash of civilizations' theory with selective extremist writing."[17]
Messaoud Saidani of Coventry University says that although MEMRI presents itself as Middle East Research Institute it does hardly translate any controversial articles that appear in the Israeli audio-visual media. It concerns itself with Arabic, Farsi and Turkish translations.... but not Hebrew translations although most of its members are in fact Jewish. Not only that, but MEMRI selects bad apples from the Muslim world and blows them out of proportion to give a distorted impression of the Muslim and Arab worlds. Also, it claims to be a non-political non-partisan organisation, BUT almost all its founders had served in the IDF and the intelligence services. When Israel's deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai said Palestinians risked a "shoah" (Holocaust) MEMRI did not bother to inform its readership and translate the statement made to Israel's army radio, "[18].
[edit]Selectivity
According to Juan Cole, Professor of Modern Middle East History at the University of Michigan, MEMRI has a tendency to "cleverly cherry-pick the vast Arabic press, which serves 300 million people, for the most extreme and objectionable articles and editorials"[19] Similarly, Ibrahim Hooper, a director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, stated in the Washington Times that "MEMRI's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."[4]
William Rugh, former U.S. ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and Yemen, describes MEMRI as a service which "does not present a balanced or complete picture of the Arab print media.... Quotes are selected to portray Arabs as preaching hatred against Jews and westerners, praising violence and refusing any peaceful settlement of the Palestinian issue."[20]
Laila Lalami has written that, "There are three general observations that can be made about MEMRI's work. One is that it consistently picks the most violent, hateful rubbish it can find, translates it and distributes it in e-mail newsletters to media and members of Congress in Washington. The second is that MEMRI does not translate comparable articles published in Israel, although the country is not only a part of the Middle East but an active party to some of its most searing conflicts. For instance, when the right-wing Israeli politician Effi Eitam referred to Israel's Palestinian citizens as a "cancer," MEMRI did not pick up this story. The third is that this organization is now the main source of media articles on the region of Islam, a far greater and far more diverse whole than the individual countries it lists."[21]
Ken Livingstone, former British MP and former Mayor of London, has accused MEMRI of "outright distortion".[22][23] Journalist Rima Barakat wrote of the January 2005 Greater London Authority report that: "A study was commissioned to investigate the 'Islamic conspiracy dossier.' This dossier was compiled to defame a renowned Muslim scholar and was presented to British officials in an attempt to prevent a renowned Muslim scholar, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, from entering Britain to participate in a London conference. The report found that "nearly all the distortions came from material produced by the MEMRI."[24]
[edit]Translation Inaccuracy
The accuracy of MEMRI's translations is sometimes disputed.[25][26][5][23][27]. For example, a controversy arose over MEMRI's translation of the Arabic words "ay wilayah" in the 2004 Osama bin Laden video. Osama bin Laden's statement was widely translated as: "Every state that does not toy with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security".[28] The US media in general translated "state" as nation-state, and viewed Bin Laden's statement as a warning to the US to stop intervening in the Middle East in order to guarantee US security[25]. But MEMRI interpreted "state" in the sense of a US state rather than a nation-state. MEMRI's translation was widely reported since it differed from most earlier translations and since MEMRI's "Special Alert" published along with Bin Laden's speech the weekend before the 2004 presidential election stated that: "Osama bin Laden ... included a specific threat to 'each U.S. state,' designed to influence the outcome of the upcoming election against George W. Bush."[25] The media watchdog site mediamatters.org noted that: "MEMRI's translation has been challenged by a number of scholars and experts," of whom they quote Juan Cole, professor of modern Middle East History at the University of Michigan; Omer Taspinar, a foreign policy studies research fellow at the Brookings Institution; and Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert and director of the RAND Corp's Washington, D.C. office. They include Juan Cole's statement that bin Laden: "cannot possibly mean that he thinks Rhode Island is in a position to [trifle with Muslims' security]"[19][26] Brian Whitaker went even further, commenting that it was "a clever bit of election propaganda on MEMRI's part, implying that Bin Laden wanted Americans to vote for Kerry"[29]
Professor Halim Barakat of Georgetown University cited MEMRI's translations of his own articles as an example of such distortion: "Every time I wrote Zionism, MEMRI replaced the word by Jew or Judaism. They want to give the impression that I'm not criticizing Israeli policy, but that what I'm saying is anti-Semitic."[30]
On his blog for The Guardian, Brian Whitaker wrote that in a translation of a Hamas video showing Farfur, a Mickey-mouse figure, eliciting political comments from a young girl, the MEMRI transcript misrepresents the segment, by attributing a sentence said by the mouse figure ("I'll shoot") to the child, and ignoring the child's statement ("I'm going to draw a picture") [10] Also, where MEMRI translates the girl as saying "We will annihilate the Jews", Whitaker and others, including Arabic speakers used by CNN, insist that based on careful listening to the low quality video clip, the girl is variously interpreted as saying, "The Jews will[are] shoot[ing at] us" or "The Jews are killing us."[31] Whitaker concluded: "The effect of this is to devalue everything Memri translates - good and bad alike. Responsible news organisations can't rely on anything it says without going back and checking its translations against the original Arabic." [10]
According to Le Monde Diplomatique, MEMRI translations sometimes remove content, or even add Arabic terms not present in the original, with intent of making the statement seem more controversial. The author writes:
« M. Hani Al-Sebai, an Islamist living in Great-Britain (...) has declared regarding the victims [of the 7 July 2005 London bombings ]: "There is no term in Islamic jurisprudence for 'civilians'. Dr Karmi [another guest] is with us and he is proficient in Islamic jurisprudence. There are the categories of 'fighters' and 'non-fighters'. Islam is against the murder of innocents. According to Islam, an innocent cannot be killed." MEMRI's translation : "The term 'civilian' does not exist in Muslim religious law. Dr Karmi is with us and I am here and I know religious law. There is no 'civilian' in the modern Western sense. People belong to Dar al-Harb or not." Note the introduction of the controversial term "dar al harb" [...] Incidentally, MEMRI removed from its traduction Mr Al Sebai's condemnation of any killing of innocents...»[32]

forextrader: "Letto, your response to Zionist watch is totally bogus and you know it."

Sorry to disappoint you. I don't know that.

Here it is the "Death to Israel" link again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo

lisa3210peace,

Speaking with people is working towards understanding and peace. Your answer is to read only what agrees with you. That is exactly why this mess never gets solved, because so many just stick to their own side and won't even attempt to understand an opposing perspective.

If I were born a Palestinian, I would not sit and rot in terrible conditions, praying and fighting for the land of my ancestors or letting others ruin my prospects for a future. I'd have gotten the hell out of there long ago to head for greener pastures, just like so many Palestinians have, just like my ancestors did when leaving the steppes of Russia and parts of Eastern Europe, for America.

Of course, if the thought of swallowing my pride sounded worse than death to me, I'd be forced to stay and fight, but I'd know it would only bring death. I do believe that is where so many militants are, stuck in trying to save face and knowing the dark consequences.

Letto, your response to Zionist watch is totally bogus and you know it. Pres. Achmedinejad did not say that "Israel should be wiped off the map". No more of your Zionist fairy tales, ok. Iran is not the threat. Hamas is not the threat. But the Zionist mercenary state with it's nuclear arsenal that you embrace is the real threat. Got it? But you never let the facts get in your way, I see.

This video should dispel the Zionist fairy tale industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ

1. lisa3210peace: "To the intelligent posters on this thread. Why play verbal-volleyball with Letto? It's time spent not reading Amy Goodman, Chomsky, Zinn, Cole or the many other erudite minds out there."

---
I have read some books and watched documentaries by Noam Chomsky, and Haward Zinn. And on occasion I read Amy Goodman's material on DemocracyNow (Never read any of her books yet).

I'm respecting them and their knowledge and as respectable humanitarians. And I can say that I agree with most of their messages. (Maybe 90%) Especially the message of being a self thinker and criticize what you see on the media.

I do have a few items that I don't agree with them. Especially with Chomsky (Who is, I agree, a great man – and definitely greater than I and you.) My biggest concern with Chomsky interpretations of events is that he is looking only on numbers (Body counts) and basically he ignores the intentions of the sides involved in the conflict.

I can elaborate on this issue, but it's not for this forum.

zionist watch, "Palestine was inhabited by people from many different faith living in peace until the jewish zionist murdered, raped, stole their lands and drove them from homes and farms that have been in their families for generations."

It is clear that you claim that before Zionism, the Palestinians were peace loving people, and no war occurred on their land.
Can you explain your dogma?
- Are you suggesting that before the Zionist movement was founded in the late 19 century there was no wars or conflicts in Israel / Palestine?
- Or are you saying that there were wars, but the peace loving Palestinians didn't live in the lands yet, when these wars were fought?

Please clarify…

--------

zionist watch: "I believe that the Palestinian resistance fighters have the same right as the zionist jews have and have had in defending what is rightfully theirs and to protect their families."

- Am I to understand that killing innocent civilians, as long as they are Jews – is "Defending… protect their families…"

zionist watch: "There is hope for peace. The zionist jews need to leave israel and go back to their Khazar countries from which they came."

Thank you for clarifying, that in your opinion the only way you agree to peace is if all the Jews will be ethnically cleansed and deported to Kazakhstan.
------

Please compile 3 or 4 short questions, and I'll do my best to answer them.

zionist watch – Ahmadinejad's called for the destruction of Israel, and for the relocation of all the Jews and been done on Many Many occations. The specific "Erase Israel from the Map" from 2005 "World Without Zionism" conference is but one example, and that one is disputed and depends on the translation. (It could be translated as erase the regime, or erase the country, from the map or from the pages of history)

Here is another CLEAR and UNDESPUTABLE call "DEATH TO ISRAEL" by you Ahmadinejad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo

I think it is clear that the question if Ahmadinejad wants to destroy Israel true or false is behind us now.

Jim Glover,
- What war crimes did I denied, (I did published information, and I never denied about the Palestinian Nakba)
- How exactly did I turned into a war criminal?
- At what point did I say that Iran should be attacked because they deny the holocaust?

I don't know who you are and how old are you Jim Glover, Obviously you have some difficulties understanding reading materials. What grade are you in now?

Olmert is trying to save his sorry, corrupt ass by the distraction of murdering thousands of innocent Iranians and Palestinians. Sick, sick, sick.

Letto; I admire your loyalty to Israel. If we traded places, I'd be carrying an Uzi living in a settlement on the West Bank.

But things are as they are.
It is time for compromise, dialogue and Peace.
Something Israel could make happen in no time if they desired.

Respectfully, No More War.

To the intelligent posters on this thread. Why play verbal-volleyball with Letto?

It's time spent not reading Amy Goodman, Chomsky, Zinn, Cole or the many other erudite minds out there.

"Letto" is a form of self-gratification, sure you know you are right, but he/she has a closed mind.....ergo no learning transpires.

Peace to All.

The trouble is , most of these human beings are dazzled by the labels imprinted on their minds. If one persons label says Israeli Citizen, then this is a valued human being, at least by most western politicians, and is said has every right to land, water, existence, revenge for injury and loss of life, and voting rights. Another sort of person is labeled Palestinian and is de-assigned as not having one of the above rights in the land they were born in, and has a low status value of less than that of being a slave. So a cultural birth lottery brings about status determination. It is unfortunate that the holders of power in the label fantasy have all the money, and most of the weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons, cluster bombs and a delivery organization of state terror and strong media control. Both sides use the labels demean the freedom and humanity of their enemies and blight the possibility of either peoples having a long term future, unless a common set of rights and obligations can be actioned, blind to the birth and cultural origins of both peoples, in the face of long standing prejudice.

Glover,
You totally misread Letto's point! Ahmadinejad has said that he intends to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth and that he is developing nuclear weapons. Letto, like the Israelis, is taking Ahmadinejad at his word. Of course in all other aspects, they do not trust him at all. Israeli fears are based in the fact that Iran has been at war with Israel, by proxy through Hezbollah and Hamas, for quite awhile. Israel is CURRENTLY under rocket attack from Hamas/Iran. Should Israel buy Iran, an enemy who has sworn to destroy Israel, a box of cookies?

Yes, you want everybody to sit and negotiate. Expecting lasting results from that, at this point, is idealistic but naive when you look at the past 100 years of middle east conflict. Sadly, at best, a peaceful and lasting solution is decades away.

Negotiation is only worth considering when both sides are willing to give. Israel has repeatedly shown this willingness to make peace by: offering land for peace; enfranchising Israeli Arabs; pulling out of Lebanon HOW MANY TIMES?; sending food, fuel, and power to Gaza; and in many other ways.

Iran has repeatedly shown unwillingness to make peace by: continuing to launch missiles at Israeli civilian targets; rearming Hezbollah with more and longer range missiles for future conflicts; calling for the destruction of Israel; and my favorite, offering the destruction of Israel as a compromise.

Letto,

A win/win peace is the only way to end War period.
To deny even that is planning continued War Crimes.

Like most Zionists, it is your fear that keeps you excusing the crimes of Israel.

Using the Holocaust denier excuse to justify an attack on Iran which would trigger a possible world War 3 is planning a war crime in front of all here.
You haven't justified one thing with any humanity to all the charges of fact that have been truthfully given to you just on this discussion.

You think like a war criminal and to risk the consequences of attacking Iran because you don't trust them is a War Crime and all your criminal plans are based on two insane fears...

The first is over a debate to what extent the Arabs do not accept the holocaust or interpret it the same as you do as any justification for War is criminally insane and the planning on bombing nuclear facilities and spreading radiation over the mideast is another huge War Crime!

So you ask what I would do... I would negotiate with Hamas and Syria and Fatah all together and work on a comprehensive peace and start with a negotiated cease fire...

And if Israel starts a war with Iran I would be happy to see you and all those who start this madness arrested as the War Criminals.

Fear is no excuse for War Crimes.

Collective punishment of Palestine out of proportion to the reality of this War is an ongoing War Crime .... the only thing you have to fear is Justice that leads to peace.

The consequences of what you propose... "Win / Win peace is unachievable." could lead to more deaths and destruction that the Nazis who had no Nukes, couldn't dream of.

Having nuclear weapons means Israel has the responsibility to work for a win/win Peace... that is morality, that is Truth and that is the way to a great Israel instead of a criminal Israel.

forextrader, your win / lose mentality, and putting all the blame on one side only, is the reason why a Win / Win peace is unachievable.

We have two nations, Iran which has publicly declared it's objective to wipe Israel off the map, and Israel determined to maintain (many argue expand) it's territorial position no matter what.

That being the case, Iran and Israel are both acting rationally in accordance with the logic of self-preservation with Iran in acting towards destroying Israel and Israel in monitoring the actions of Iran at all times from a military strategic perspective and assessing the likely risk each development presents to Israel's objectives of self-preservation.

Whether or not that preservation is in the view of many justified or not - this behaviour on the part of Israel is rational given the two opening premises (that Iran wants to destroy Israel, and that Israel wants to survive).

Viewed from this perspective Israel needs to examine what the purpose of the development of nuclear reactors would be in Iran, to destroy Israel, to produce an alternative source of fuel, or a bit of both or somewhere in between.

1) Iran is an oil rich nation with the world's third largest reserves and "at 2006 rates of production, Iran's oil reserves would last 98 years if no new oil was found." (wikipedia)
2) Iran has the capacity to trade peacefully and does not in the foreseeable future have any economic need for alternative sources of fuel
3) development of a nuclear reactor can be for the purpose of either producing nuclear weapons to use, nuclear weapons as deterrence, and as an alternative energy source
4) Iran's leader has publicly vowed to destroy Israel
5) a nuclear strike would improve the capacity of Iran to deliver that objective

Given these premises, any rational decision-maker in the position of Israel would have to consider the completion of nuclear reactors in Iran to be a high threat to Israel's security. Whether or not Israel has a right of any sort to exist is another question entirely.

RESPONSE TO COMMENTS

MEDUSA: Israel has not threatened to wipe Iran off the map - so any argument about the rationale of a strike by Iran on Dimona are not equivalent.

HOMEWARD-ANGEL: you say "As long as the Iranians use their nuclear capabilities peacefully, i say let them have it. Is it not hypocritical to be a nuclear power, then deny that to other sovereign nations?" It is hypocritical to be a nuclear power then deny that to other sovereign nations. However, see premises 1, 2, 4 and 5 above. Given these circumstances there is much basis for Israel to doubt that peaceful use of the nuclear facilities is Iran's sole purpose.

INJUNTROUBLE: That's a sickening prospect. Israel is a diverse country with many good people on the ground who just want to live safely and not harm others and who would not stand for such a horrendous thing. Possible I say, but most unlikely.

JESUSOFJONESBORO: to whom were you responding? I couldn't find the label "anti-semitic" anywhere prior to your comment.

SAMSON: there is no denying that.

MELMAC: you have bigger problems than the strategic and economic alliance between Israel and USA at the moment. Just try to stop sounding like a lunatic long enough to muster up as much support as you can in your community for Barack Obama in the upcoming election.

MORDECHAI SHIBLIKOV: you seem to know the outcome before it transpires and you are saying, just let Iran build the nuclear reactors, they definitely or even will not in likelihood use this technology to attack Israel with nuclear. I hope you are right, it could help if the Iranian leader would just come out and say "sorry, about that decimation of Israel crack, just kidding".

I'm not arguing that Iran nor any nation need to accept Israel's position and actions in relation to the Palestinians. However, as long as there are military means employed in protesting against Israel's policies, the science of human nature from a study of it throughout history says that violence is going to be met with violence. Blaming Israel for its responses is as futile as blaming eggs for chickens or vice versa.

culicomorpha "
1) Israel has many nukes
2) Iran has no nukes
Conclusion: Pre-emptive war by Israel is not justified."

True, True, and NOT True.

---
We can add a few additional points to the equation.
3. Iran is being ran by religious fanatics, who believe that if they die in a holy war - they'll go to heaven. (Hence, unlike the US and the USSR, they won't be afraid to press the red button)
As Khumaini said in the 80's They are willing to scarify a few millions of their own people, just to see Israel destroyed.
4. Iran's leadership called for the destruction of Israel.
5. Iran have already fired missiles at Israel (Revolutionary guard, Lebanon, 2006) and is conducting for some time a proxy war against Israel (By financing and arming Hizballah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad)
6. Iran is developing nuclear capability.

I'm not saying if a Pre-emptive strike by Israel is justified or not. The fact remains that if the leaders of Israel will believe that a nuclear holocaust is imminent, and their choice is between nuclear holocaust or an Pre-emptive strike, then it is clear what they'll do.

If Iran's leadership will gain access to nukes - there'll be a real risk of a nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel.

Do the calculations
How many people will die in such a nuclear exchange?
How many people will die in a Pre-emptive strike on Iranian nuclear facility?

So what is the moral thing to do? Nothing? Shouldn't the world take steps to prevent that risk?

Boy, I've seen some ideaologues in my day, but this takes the cake.

Letto:
1) Israel has many nukes
2) Iran has no nukes

The logical corrolary is that Iran has a legitimate concern right now
Israel has - at best, a concern about something that might happen in the future.

Conclusion: Pre-emptive war by Israel is not justified.

I hope you can keep in mind that this country has already been dragged into a war based on trumped-up charges that were proven to be utter fabrications. I do not think you will find most CDers to be a receptive audience for this line of propaganda. Israel has a right to defend themselves, but the proportionality of the response is not 1000:1.

Time for the US to put Zionist "Israel" on the terrorist list:

http://www.counterpunch.com/abourezk06062008.html

Letto's so called "better life" for Palestinians:

http://www.counterpunch.com/barghouti06052008.html

puppetmaster, Even though I don't justify killing of innocent civilians, it was my point all along that a coin has more than one side.

I'm pro-Israeli, and I never hid that fact. However, I hope you'll believe me when I say that I do want to see a better life for everyone, including Palestinians and Iranians.

This is why I said that we should put all the cards the table, up front, and try to find a win / win solution which will improve the situation for both sides. (Both)

If one side continue to insist on a Win / Lose solutions, and to turn the clock back to a time which best suite him, then there will be no peace.

Hey letto-Here's the deal with all this:
Those who have the power can kill, disappear, silence, or ruin whomever they want to or need to-those who do not have the power tend to kill or hurt the first person they can get their hands on.

Are we ringing any bells here, man?

Is any of this sounding familiar to you?

Think about it man-In the natural world, there is no such thing as boundless killing-it ends somewhere. The Zionists hate the world-it's them verses 7 billion people!! Do you actually believe the tripe they try to hand you?

There are two sides to every conflict. Are we really looking at both sides equally? Fairly? Responsibly???? Please tell me what you think... No arguments here, just throwing something out there for everyone to look at....

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves:

Religion is the main reason for wars on this planet.
The world would be a much better place if people will stop killing infidels, or believe in fantasy stories about how the universe works (Such as heaven and hell).

Suppose there is a God. Do you Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves have a monopoly on knowing what he wants?

I fail to see why you're so obsessed with religion. Zionism is a national movement. Some Zionists are religious, and some (like me) aren't. And your point is?

The Palestinians in Gaza don't have a freedom of religion, but it's the Hamas fault, not Israel's.

All the Universities in Gaza and the west bank were crated during the Israeli occupation.

Baby mortality rate dropped from 30% to 2%- guess when?

They have full access to Hospitals in Gaza, and even some limited access to Israeli hospitals.

They live is African standard of living. But it was their leadership choice.

Here is some of the difference between Gaza strip and Singapore (Similar initial conditions).
- The Singaporeans, didn't sent suicide bombers to Malaysia. (Which caused Malaysia to stop giving them work permits)
- They didn't burned Malayan factories that provided them work.
- They didn't say that Malaysia has no right to exist.
- They didn't say they have a natural right to kill randomly Malayans.
- They didn't fired thousands of rockets at Malaysia.
- They didn't chose to dedicated their lives to hatred, and to blame others for their condition.
Instead they chose to make Business.

~ LETTO ~

Scrolling down a few inches, on your referenced definition of GENOCIDE, we also find the revealing earlier SOURCE definition:

___ genocide
___ 1944, apparently coined by Polish-born U.S.
___ jurist Raphael Lemkin in his work "Axis Rule
___ in Occupied Europe" [p.19], in reference to
___ Nazi extermination of Jews, lit. "killing a tribe,"
___ from Gk. genos "race, kind"

And thus it thereby also applies EQUALLY to :

___ Arabic (aka semitic ) إبادَه جَماعِيَّه

And thanks for ( indirectly ) acknowledging the lack of any justification of Zionism as a religion, or pertaining to God. But hey, it's really very materialistic and "modern" as far as warmongering belief go.

__ I am so sure that the Palestinians feel
__ wonderful 'freedom of religion', in Gaza,
__ or is that supposed to not be part of Israel ?

What about 'freedom of access to medical care'?

__ 'freedom of access to food & farmlands'?
__ 'freedom of access to clean water'?
__ 'freedom from Israeli raw sewage'?

Namaste

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves: "The world needs less hysteria, and more compassion, especially for those suffering under egregious manipulations of the avariciously powerful and truculently inhumane."

I agree.

zionist watch, Are you a Jew by any chance? I asked you a few questions, and instead of answering you posted questions yourself.

I think it would only be fair if you answer my questions first. So here there are again:

zionist watch, You are saying that all of Israel (Even at its pre-1967 borders) is an illegal settlement?

You saying that Palestinian "resistance fighters" have a natural right to randomly kill Jews (Civilians)?

In your eyes - is there any hope to achieve peace short of killing all the Jews in Israel and abroad?

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves: "I DO NOT deny the Jewish deaths of WWII, but the attempts to legitimize genocide NOW"

The only Genocide taking place nowadays is in Sudan and Congo.

What happens NOW in the Israeli Palestinian conflict not Genocide.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Genocide
Genocide = "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."

A few hundreds killed militants (Less than 0.1% of the populations), who are actively involve in firing rockets at civilian targets (War crime) and who are hiding among 1.5 million civilians is NOT Genocide.

Israel does not try to deliberately and systematicly exterminate the Palestinians, in the same way that the Hamas is trying to do to Jews (And fails).

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves: "So exactly where does freedom of "religion" apply to non-secular Zionism?"

In Israel there is a freedom of religion. Unlike in any Arab country or Iran.
In Iran for example, if someone convert to Islam, and 5 minutes later change his mind - His punishment is death.

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves: "Are you suggesting that Zionists are similar ( demi-Gods )?"

What you you think?

~ LETTO ~

Fact of the matter, many "legends" start with a seed of historic truth,

__ but then are stretched as if to FIT a
__ DRUM of WAR -- to be beaten wildly upon --
__ whilst rendering flesh raw in a frenzy of victim-hood.

The world needs less hysteria, and more compassion, especially for those suffering under egregious manipulations of the avariciously powerful and truculently inhumane.

Namaste

~ LETTO ~

Granted the article's title uses your asserted words, buy the actual QUOTE, is different ( must be your penchant for exaggeration ?):

___"They have fabricated a legend under the name
___ Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than
___ God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves."

Estimates are that a similar ~ 6 million died over 300 years during the Spanish Inquisition, while most of those were women, some were Jewish. No one makes such a big deal about this massive blood letting and torture, to increase it's impact even to that of a legend status. Perhaps that's because no one is trying so very hard to justify moving back to Spain?

I DO NOT deny the Jewish deaths of WWII, but the attempts to legitimize genocide NOW, by some weird Western Civilization "shared shame" ( of genocide THEN ), is overblown hype and a home-brew self-serving ISRAELI propaganda industry ( just as renown scholar Norman Finkelstein has illustrated ).

So are you going to suggest bu$h!t go to war against me, NOW ?

Enjoy your stale chips, as the "sky isn't falling in my neighborhood" and Americans hardly need to add more suffering into this world. Thank you very much, I have enough right now.

BTW, I do have trouble understanding why a political profiteering enterprise like Zionism is even associated with any religion, as non-secular means w/o belief in God.

So exactly where does freedom of "religion" apply to non-secular Zionism?

As for fate, that's just some dusty ancient Greek belief of demi-Gods interfering with humans. Are you suggesting that Zionists are similar ( demi-Gods )?

Namaste

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves: "I recall thyat you said that you're a "liberal" as compared to "revisionist" Zionist — does that include a belief in a higher power ?"

My believe is in freedom of religion and fate. What about you?

Presence/namaste_aka_slithytoves: "Is it moral for Mossad to implement it's SLOGAN: "WAY OF DECEPTION SHALT THOU MAKE WAR", and does that apply to your own truthfulness herein ?"

No.

Just type "Achmedinejad, holocaust is a myth" and you'll get many references

Here is Al-Jazeera
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=17019

In a speech broadcast live on state television on Wednesday, Ahmadinejad told a crowd in the southern city of Zahedan: "They have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves.

~ LETTO ~

We would really like to check out you often repeated assertion, when you state again ( at 6:26 pm ): "Achmedinejad, he said the Nazi Holocaust (One of the most documented Genocide in human history) is a myth."

__ Please do provide the curious with
__ a valid reference, to substantiate this.

Frankly, your veracity has been questioned by a few, although I would hardly expect exaggeration and mere repetition to be be the basis of your so SOLID and righteous Zionist beliefs. I recall thyat you said that you're a "liberal" as compared to "revisionist" Zionist -- does that include a belief in a higher power ?

Is it moral for Mossad to implement it's SLOGAN: "WAY OF DECEPTION SHALT THOU MAKE WAR", and does that apply to your own truthfulness herein ?

Namaste

zionist watch, You are saying that all of Israel (Even at its pre-1967 borders) is an illegal settlement?

You saying that Palestinian "resistance fighters" have a natural right to randomly kill Jews (Civilians)?

In your eyes - is there any hope to achieve peace short of killing all the Jews in Israel and abroad?

How would you suggest of doing that?

forextrader "there is a Zionists holocaust going on against Palestinians since '48"

I think a holocaust is when you have a genocide.
You are misusing the word Holocaust to a local conflict that took the life of less than 1% on both sides. (Similar perhaps to the wars in the Balkan)

Why not misuse the word even further?

Yesterday, I had a holocaust of a head-hake.
Ho, I broke my nail, what a holocaust.
Do you Forextrader, deny my broken fingernail holocaust?

As for Achmedinejad, he said the Nazi Holocaust (One of the most documented Genocide in human history) is a myth.
He also held a Holocaust denial conference in Tehran, and brought all kind of KKK leader to that gathering.

And as you posted yourself - He suggest to ethnically cleansed the 6 million Jews who live in Israel and relocate them by force to Alaska or Canada. Which makes him what?

Well Letto I see you misudes my link in a twisted way to substantiate your point of view. But that's beside the point.

You say that Iran is developing a nuclear capability. Iran doesn't even have ONE nuclear weapon at this time! Well the Zionist state already has over 150 nuclear weapons, capable of blowing Iran several times over. If a nuclear holocaust is indeed imminent it would be because of the Zionists and not Iran. You say Iran's leader is denying the holocaust. He never denied anything. The pro-Zionist Western media twisted his words out of context. But there is a Zionists holocaust going on against Palestinians since '48. Who's the real holocaust denier here? You also foolishly in previous post compared Iran's President to David Koresh and labeling him a suicide bomber and other fantasies. While I don't always agree with President Achmedinejad, I believe that he is a very intelligent and thoughtful leader. I appreciate all that he is done in standing up against rabid, out of control Zionism.

Anyways, for those interested, here's what Achmedinejad really said and NO he is NOT a holocaust denier!!!

Here's the speech:

The Iranian press agency IRNA renders Ahmadinejad on 2005-12-14 as follows: "'If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why the Palestinian nation should pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions.' [...] 'If you have committed the crimes so give a piece of your land somewhere in Europe or America and Canada or Alaska to them to set up their own state there.' [...] Ahmadinejad said some have created a myth on holocaust and hold it even higher than the very belief in religion and prophets [...] The president further said, 'If your civilization consists of aggression, displacing the oppressed nations, suppressing justice-seeking voices and spreading injustice and poverty for the majority of people on the earth, then we say it out loud that we despise your hollow civilization.'"

No denial here!

OK slithytoves,

TETTI_TATTI - Read the following articles, and learn that the two events are not comparable.

The Nazi holocaust:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

The Palestinian Nakba (Catastrophe)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

~LETTO~ ( at 5:52 pm )

Twas, not my statement, as that "interesting" comparison was from

~TETTI_TATTI~ ( at 5:17 pm )

Namaste

slithytoves, "Israel has used similar Nazi methods of extermination, ethnic cleansing and mass-murder of Palestini