Secret evidence. Denial of habeas corpus. Evidence obtained by waterboarding. Indefinite detention. The litany of complaints about the legal treatment of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay is long, disturbing and by now familiar. Nonetheless, a new wave of shock and criticism greeted the Pentagon’s announcement on February 11 that it was charging six Guantánamo detainees, including alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, with war crimes–and seeking the death penalty for all of them.
Now, as the murky, quasi-legal staging of the Bush Administration’s military commissions unfolds, a key official has told The Nation that the trials are rigged from the start. According to Col. Morris Davis, former chief prosecutor for Guantánamo’s military commissions, the process has been manipulated by Administration appointees in an attempt to foreclose the possibility of acquittal.
Colonel Davis’s criticism of the commissions has been escalating since he resigned this past October, telling the Washington Post that he had been pressured by politically appointed senior defense officials to pursue cases deemed “sexy” and of “high-interest” (such as the 9/11 cases now being pursued) in the run-up to the 2008 elections. Davis, once a staunch defender of the commissions process, elaborated on his reasons in a December 10, 2007, Los Angeles Times op-ed. “I concluded that full, fair and open trials were not possible under the current system,” he wrote. “I felt that the system had become deeply politicized and that I could no longer do my job effectively.”
Then, in an interview with The Nation in February after the six Guantánamo detainees were charged, Davis offered the most damning evidence of the military commissions’ bias–a revelation that speaks to fundamental flaws in the Bush Administration’s conduct of statecraft: its contempt for the rule of law and its pursuit of political objectives above all else.
When asked if he thought the men at Guantánamo could receive a fair trial, Davis provided the following account of an August 2005 meeting he had with Pentagon general counsel William Haynes–the man who now oversees the tribunal process for the Defense Department. “[Haynes] said these trials will be the Nuremberg of our time,” recalled Davis, referring to the Nazi tribunals in 1945, considered the model of procedural rights in the prosecution of war crimes. In response, Davis said he noted that at Nuremberg there had been some acquittals, something that had lent great credibility to the proceedings.
“I said to him that if we come up short and there are some acquittals in our cases, it will at least validate the process,” Davis continued. “At which point, [Haynes’s] eyes got wide and he said, ‘Wait a minute, we can’t have acquittals. If we’ve been holding these guys for so long, how can we explain letting them get off? We can’t have acquittals, we’ve got to have convictions.’”
Davis submitted his resignation on October 4, 2007, just hours after he was informed that Haynes had been put above him in the commissions’ chain of command. “Everyone has opinions,” Davis says. “But when he was put above me, his opinions became orders.”
Reached for comment, Defense Department spokesperson Cynthia Smith said, “The Department of Defense disputes the assertions made by Colonel Davis in this statement regarding acquittals.”
“That he [Haynes] said there can be no acquittals will stain the entire [tribunal] process,” says Scott Horton, who teaches law at Columbia University Law School and who has written extensively about Haynes’s conflicts with the Judge Advocate General’s (JAG) corps, the judicial arm of the Armed Forces, which is charged with implementing the military commissions. According to Horton, Haynes tried to cut the JAG corps out of internal debates over the detention and prosecution of detainees, knowing it was critical of the Administration’s views. In private memos and in public Senate testimony, high-ranking officers of the corps have repeatedly expressed concerns about the Administration’s advocacy of “extreme interrogation techniques.”
“The JAG corps consists of a group of rigorous professionals, but Haynes never trusted them to do their job,” says Horton. “His clashes have always had the same subtext–they want to be independent, he wants them to do political dirty-work.”
Haynes, a political appointee and chief legal adviser to Defense secretaries Donald Rumsfeld and Robert Gates, was nominated in 2006 by the Bush Administration for a lifetime seat as a judge in the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. But his nomination never got out of committee, primarily because of the opposition of Republican Senator (and former military lawyer) Lindsey Graham and other members alarmed over Haynes’s role in writing or supervising the writing of Pentagon memos advocating the use of harsh interrogation techniques the Geneva Conventions classify as torture.
Currently, in his capacity as Pentagon general counsel, Haynes oversees both the prosecution and the defense for the commissions. “You would think a person in that position wouldn’t be favoring one side,” says Colonel Davis.
Told of Davis’s story about Haynes, Clive Stafford Smith, a defense attorney who has represented more than seventy Guantánamo clients, said, “Hearing it makes me think I’m back in Mississippi representing a black man in front of an all-white jury.”
He adds, “It confirms what people close to the system have always said,” noting that when three prosecutors–Maj. Robert Preston, Capt. John Carr and Capt. Carrie Wolf–requested to be transferred out of the Office of Military Commissions in 2004, they claimed they’d been told the process was rigged. In an e-mail to his supervisors, Preston had said that there was thin evidence against the accused. “But they were told by the chief prosecutor at the time that they didn’t need evidence to get convictions,” says Stafford Smith.
At the time, the military wrote it off as “miscommunication” and “personality conflicts.” And then there were changes in personnel. “They told us that the system had been cleaned up…but I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same,” says Stafford Smith.
The terrible irony is that even if acquittals were possible, the government has declared that it can continue to detain anyone deemed an “enemy combatant” for the duration of hostilities–no matter the outcome of a trial. And most of the 275 men held at Guantánamo are classified as “enemy combatants” while the hostilities in the “war on terror” could be never-ending.
Says ACLU staff attorney Ben Wizner, “The trial doesn’t make a difference. They can hold you there forever until they decide to let you out.” The one person to be released from Guantánamo through the judicial process, Australian David Hicks, pleaded guilty. As Wizner wrote in the Los Angeles Times in April 2007, “In an ordinary justice system, the accused must be acquitted to be released. In Guantánamo, the accused must plead guilty to be released.”
Still, the trials serve a purpose for the government, in providing the semblance of a legitimate judicial process. According to defense attorneys involved–and many of the former prosecutors, like Davis–the process is political, not legal.
“If someone was acquitted, then it would suggest we did the wrong thing in the first place. That can’t happen,” says Horton sardonically. “When the government decides to clear someone, it calls the person ‘no-longer an enemy combatant’ instead of just saying they made a mistake.”
He adds, “For people like Haynes, justice is meant to serve the party.”
© 2008 The Nation
Is this what our Corporate Cat’s Paws call the Rule of Law?
Some justice. Some value. All lies. Secede!
Who would have though these trials would be less than fair? After all, confessions were tortured out of these ruthless terrorists!
In america we have american idol, hollywood, lawyers who think they make all the rules, and bankers who think they control all the funds.
In america we no longer have for the most part manufacturing plants that make products people need, farms of the family, or neighborhoods of harmony.
Moral bankruptcy is what we now have.
Can we change for the better. Who knows, but the time is running short. Don’t you think?
With “Secret evidence. Denial of habeas corpus. Evidence obtained by waterboarding. Indefinite detention.”, do the accused really need to be there for the trials? Why not simply announce the verdicts, execute them, and hold the trials later?
As I said elsewhere - Stalinist show trials.
From 1 dictator to another…..
It’s a bit beyond moral bankruptcy, I’d say moral leprosy.
When reading the headline I was reminded of something I heard years ago about someone being surprised that bears crap in the woods.
Just another example of the Administration’s disdain for the rule of law. They can’t have fair trials because that will show that the majority of the people kidnapped by the US are innocent of everything except being muslim. Did anyone really expect these “detainees” to receive a fair hearing? Not bloody likely, considering this is a syndicate that tortures, dehumanizes and stomps all over international law. It’s no wonder the US is opposed to ICC, otherwise we’d see every US official from the past 50 years in the dock charged with varying degrees of crimes.
The rare circumstance where some official does get held accountable, they get a presidential pardon. You people need to retake your country. There’s nothing left except a rotten core crawling with maggots. It’s seeming more and more apparent that another American Revolution is overdue. If you people did stand up and attempted to take your country back, I’m sure you’d find much support from people world-wide. Hell, I’d come fight with you.
And Ken Potter, if you read this, THIS is what you should be using your 20 years military training for.
As if our little Bush-tator gives a flying fart about what the good Colonel says… or anyone else, for that matter…
“In a major rebuke to the Bush administration, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Thursday that the president overstepped his power in ordering war-crimes trials for Guantanamo detainees without specific authority from Congress.”
The accused pretty much aren’t going to be there for their trials. They aren’t allowed to see the evidence, they aren’t allowed to confront their accusers, most of the prisoners don’t even know the charges against them.
They’ve already been punished by being imprisoned and tortured for 6 years. The best they can hope for is to be in prison for life, rather than sentenced to death.
And Bush has the nerve to get up and preach democracy to the Cuban people on the very island where his totalitarianism is being perfected!
And anti-terrorists are being held in Miami, because they are against US-sponsored terrorism.
http://www.freethefive.org/meet5.htm
elmysterio,
We are having a revolution now but not the violent kind.
We are going to take our country back and it will be our way.
Some folks come on here and urge us to join them fighting at the barricades.
That kind of talk is cowardly bragging, stupid provocateur talk with nothing to back it up as if a freakin barricade is gonna stop any military force.
We know what is possible and we are winning.
Kindly tell that to your countrymen whoever they are.
In an otherwise excellent piece, Tuttle makes one seriously extreme mistake: The Military Commissions Act was passed with significant support ( and very little real opposition) from the Democratic Congressional Delegation (and the majority of US citizens). To lay this horrible crime against humanity off on the Bush Administration alone is disingenuous. Like Nazi Germany, we as a nation are complicit in this crime — as well as numerous others. The Bush Administration is merely the agent of our collective madness.
It is most comforting to know that AMERICA THE LAND OF THE FREE, is the worst abuser of human rights; and let me say this to those “Hong Kong wanna be WHITE MEN” like that fellow MARTIN LEE AND EMILY LAU, you are lucky to be citizens of the People’s Republic of China, where there is true Freedom and true democracy.
In an article that appeared in the British ECONOMIST PRC has been labelled “THE PEACE MONGERS” while Bush and the USA are labelled the “war-mongers”. WHAT A TURN AROUND in such a short time. It is to the credit of the PRC that when the USA is down, PRC is not gloating and not pissing in the face of the USA.
BUSH DECLARES GUANTANAMO PRISONERS INNOCENT!
This is the only sensible headline for a story like this. After all, why would you need to rig what is already a kangeroo court if these guys were guilty?
Sunshine is the best disinfectant. We need to keep talking about this issue and asking questions. I have faith in the American people and think they will react in a negative way to anything that seems overly undemocratic. We need to frame this issue as our leaderrs acting in an undemocratic and unAmerican way.
I’m truly shocked. Rigged trials?
Nothing is rigged here. Our elections weren’t rigged. September 11 wasn’t a set-up. We ensured that Saddam Hussein received a fair trial. Our FOX News station is “fair and unbiased”. The religious right is looking out for our best interest. Our police use Tasers to help people. Everything in America is fair and square just like pro wrestling.
Let’s not have any more talk about these rigged trials! The suspects were legally waterboarded just like Mukasey said was OK — sort of — he thinks.
The process at Guantanimo is just another of the examples of how the judicial system is as corrupt in this country as elsewhere. From the ideological reactionaries on the SC, to the owest of the low such as Haynes, the system is rife with nonsense, corruption and absurdities. Libbey goes free for perjury; Posado Carriles, the terrorist of all terroists, walks around Miami as a hero while political prisoners are held in the American Guantanimo gulag in Cuba. When bush says for Cuba to let the political prisoners out, he obviously is not including Guantanimo where political prisoners are held by a U.S. colonial government that is violating about ever human right there is. The very accurate statement of the 1960s, ” There is a town in Mississippi called liberty; there is a department in Washington called Justice. Woe be us all if the reactionary war criminal and war monger McBush becomes president; we ain’t seen nothing yet.
In bushes AmeriKa this is called democracy. This is the kind of “freedom/democracy” the bush administration is spreading worldwide, armed with guns, tanks, poppies, and most of all OIL. This is what the bush administration is all about. That is why every freedom loving, liberty loving, constitution loving American watches in horror as a few scant details of the most criminally corrupt cartel ever to usurp power are reviled. Can anyone even imagine the corruption and horrific deeds his mercenaries are carrying out worldwide?
Until this war profiteering administration is brought to justice before the world; we must never rest again. For it may be the last rest we ever take as a “free society”.
How can they possibly let a Democrat become president after all of this? They won’t let it happen. The chain has to be unbroken. This is like watching one of those science fiction movies in which the alien is walking around in a “human” disguise, and every once in awhile the horror underneath peaks out, but it’s stuffed back inside. There is way too much at stake to let someone rule the country who isn’t one of them. Though I think Hillary’s Achilles heel would be that she will want to appear as strong as a man and will misinterpret that as being iron fisted on the war front and to show no mercy to our “terrorist” prisoners.
Jim Glover said: “We know what is possible and we are winning.”
Really. Doesn’t look like you’re winning to me. In fact, looks to me like you’re headed for a disastrous defeat. You can wave your signs all you want, chant and protests… post on CD and then go home at the end of the day only to find the fascists have consolidated their power even more and you’re that much closer to a full-blown police state. Meanwhile, Iran is being threatened and I’m sure your wonderful leaders are drawing up plans to destablize Venezuela and Bolivia and now Cuba again… Meanwhile, the war machine keeps grinding along and billions of your tax dollars keep flowing to the Israelis for the weapons to keep murdering Arabs. But yeah, the election is coming up and we’re all gonna vote Obama and everything will be ok… But that’s hardly the truth. You can keep dreaming about faeries and unicorns but that won’t make them real.
You also said: “That kind of talk is cowardly bragging”… I disagree… I am no coward… I just think that all the daisies and rainbows kinda talk, protests, change within the system… all that, just isn’t going to cut it. The powers that be are far too entrenched to be distracted from their goals by some protests… What they need is to have a revolution on their hands and a trip to the gallows.
Peace_Coup said: “I have faith in the American people”
REALLY? Why? The American people have shown themselves to be unwilling to question “authority” in any meaningful way. They have allowed themselves to be turned into sheeple which the wolves of capitalism prey apon. They have allowed their jobs to be offshored, their liberties taken, their freedoms curtailed. They’ve allowed themselves to be lied to and dumbed-down. They’ve allowed themselves to be co-opted into one military adventure after another. If anything, they’ve shown themselves to be very easily manipulated, bribed, frightened and extorted. Why should we have faith in people like that?
This entire matter makes me so sick I have to skip lunch. Honestly, could our Criminal President have infiltrated even the highest levels of the proud military with his slime?
Bless retired Col. Davis’s disclosures and his courage in doing so. Our military has been degraded by those who squander the very freedoms they are supposedly fighting for us to enjoy. I admire and applaud his courage in retiring, but he will be replaced with someone who ‘goes along’ to ‘get along’.
This is such a sad, sad time in our history. These trials will be remembered, but I don’t think those ‘counterfeit’ American soldiers involved in the process will be judged kindly.
In my best dreams I imagine the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff walking into the oval office and saying “Mr. President, I’m relieving you of your duties and arresting you for crimes against humanity”… and shipping him off, handcuffed to Cheney, to The Hague to stand trial in the ICC.
Now why aren’t there any military men of conviction, of conscience, of substance who are true patriots and will carry out their oath to defend the constitution?
EL MYSTERIO asks why have faith in Amerikind ?
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
I am among those who believe that a coup has already occurred. The current administration got their strangle-hold early on with some very effective guarantees that they would get what they wanted and no one could (read: would dare) stop them. People are protective of their and their loved ones’ lives, so they sit up and take notice and back off when they get anthrax letters, see party members who are vocally and vociferously advocating serious and drastic change die in unexplained airplane crashes–two in as many years–and we can only suspect what goes on behind the scenes with not so subtle threats and promises of what could happen if they don’t back off. These “trials” of the detainees will be carried out despite legitimate protests of the unfairness of it all and the prisoners will die because there is too much to come out if they don’t. Our country and our Constitution has been hi-jacked.
For some reason, I do have hope that an election will start a change with a new party in the White House. Even as I type this, the posters who speak of martial law still whisper in my head. I do so hope that they are wrong.
namaste: I guess you have to have that faith the size of a mustard seed otherwise, you may come to the realization that you’re doomed.
BTW, the whole faith the size of a mustard seed thing refers to faith in Jesus, not the American people. Big difference.
elmysterio,
Are you telling us we are doomed for our own good ?
Gee thanks for your support… Oh anytime you want to get violent to save us go right ahead what is stopping you brave Man?
You are a total coward. You don’t fool me and if we here in America are Doomed it will only be because enough people fall for your Bull….but we won’t.
Don’t worry though we are better than you hope.
You like the Doomed bit…. it is the Bush Dogma and Lies that are doomed not the American people.
If you were a brave soldier like you pretend you would leave your address so that we could take you up on your offer if things get violent.
You think you can get away with anything (you think) hiding behind “elmysterio” in some undisclosed foreign land.
But oh your so mysterious… Oh Yes you have got the war Machine worried now!
Keep it up though we need the comedy relief from workin hard for change.
What makes you think that I’m hiding? I’m not really. A quick google search would lead to my real identity. Also, I’m not feeding you any bull… I’ve been here, watching and reading on Common Dreams since the beginning of the Bush Administration, and for all the talk about protests and opposition to the Bush Government, there has been ZERO progress in making any real change. You Americans are so fond of the “founding fathers” and how they created your country. Just imagine if they were afraid of using force to overthrow British rule in the colonies. And so, because I present the idea that revolution seems to be necessary, you attack me, insult me…
And you say you’re “Workin hard for change”… well you’re NOT GETTING ANYWHERE dude. Everyday, another report of a Bush crime, another 50 people murdered in the name of Manifest Destiny… but oh yeah, you’re working SO hard for change. Give me a break. You’re just afraid to get your hands dirty.
elmysterio February 20th, 2008 2:09 pm:
“Just another example of the Administration’s disdain for the rule of law. They can’t have fair trials because that will show that the majority of the people kidnapped by the US are innocent of everything except being muslim.”
I agree with you there.
“THIS is what you should be using your 20 years military training for.”
I’m not with you on this one. All the talk of a final struggle with the US government is fantasy at this point. It derives from feelings of helplessness.
Elmysterio, these Americans have no more say in who is running the US than you or I do. I was writing yesterday about handguns. I think the two subjects may be related. Guns give them some sense of power to hold on to, but it is illusory. In a military struggle with the government, all the possession of a firearm would do is save the army the trouble of planting one on their body.
I think we all are disappointed that things have come to this. I used to think that China would be brought up to the standards that the US has espoused (human rights, democracy, etc.). Now it seems that the US is moving down to China’s level of total disregard for prisoner’s rights, voting rights and censorship (I dare say this article will not make much of a splash on tv news).
It could have been different. America could have used its moment on top of the hill to set up a civilized international system that would have outlived the supremacy of the US. Instead, they have taken the route of every empire before them, leaving civilized people everywhere at the mercy of the wisdom of whoever is the next pre-eminent power.
So they put their faith in people like Obama. I only hope he isn’t as good at dashing hope as he is at instilling it.
So tell me, people of Common Dreams… what happens after you all protest, and try and elect a democrat as president, and talk and talk and talk on the message boards and NOTHING changes… At what point does it become necessary to fight fire with fire and remove the Plutocracy, by force if necessary?
I am extremely concerned about my country, BECAUSE El mysterio is absolutely correct. I don’t see dick happening in this country to hold those in power accountable for all the lies they’ve told, or the war crimes & crimes against humanity they’ve commited. Including the shit they’re pulling at Gitmo. Jim Glover must work for the ATF or some other govt agency that has NO interest in Americans taking our country back. (people the work for such agencies would lose a lot of power). You can’t just have faith, do nothing, & expect change. The majority of Americans are too busy with getting the kids to soccer practice on time and getting as big a paycheck as possible to rock the boat & worry about things like basic rights & keeping their govt in line!
So Jim, fill me in on what’s going on. Other than faith, what’s going on that is going to get us our country back that you supposedly know, of because I’d like to help.
I thought Obama was a Muslim?
I’m sure they’ll get a fair trial before we hang em
I remember seing Col.Mo Davis being interviewed on an Australian T.V.program “Dateline” defending the imminent trial of David Hicks,accused of terrorist activities in 2001.You could tell his heart wasn’t in it and that he knew the charges were hard to justify.A guilty plea was “organised”,Hicks was ordered to serve less than a year in an Australian prison and is now a free man living in Adelaide.You wonder how many similar cases there are in Gitmo!
EL MYSTERIO: I think you raise valid points. Here’s the thing: a coup has occurred here. The skilled magician recognizes the power of the sleight of hand, and the magicians involved in this bloodless (for US citizens) takeover realized the same. The channels of representative government like steps have been blocked off. The media is so infiltrated that the type of mass awakening that could lead to critical mass has been disabled. The failure of the branches of government to checkmate against this absolute takeover is stunning, and as many in this forum note, too many within that elite are part of the coup, or in some instances clueless, and in others, likely threatened.
Keep in mind this nation already has incarcerated 2.2 million of its own citizens, showed its blatant disregard for human welfare HERE during the aftermath of Katrina, and has the world’s most highly equipped inventory of weapons ever KNOWN to mankind. That’s like Luke standing up to Darth, and while I believe that Star Wars was a powerful myth and metaphor for our times, assembling the right coalition to find the flaw in the death star (US militarism unchecked), is yet to be attained.
There is a power to thought, and that power grows when many people focus on the same intention simultaneously. ALL masters have taught this. The media could have been a powerful device for bringing large numbers of people into unison, into higher consciousness; instead it’s been used to sell mostly useless products, invent dis-eases to manage, and to promulgate fear, an important emotional fuel to sustain and maintain wars and the permanent war-state.
I don’t blame the Chinese people for what its government does. I believe plenty of good Israelis are also against what their government does. Please understand that many Americans are against this government. We live simply, we follow high teachings, and we are doing what we can, short of taking the “Rachel Corrie approach of standing in front of a bulldozer” to make change happen. Some of us believe in higher agencies, the law of karma, and such. Nature, a/k/a MOTHER Gaia will probably play a significant part in bringing the death ship down; and of course the astronomical debt brought on by a dangerous, diabolical fool born to the “right” last name who hasn’t a clue or concept of civilization, nor how to manage the fundaments of any nation is yet to be tallied with. My nation has lost its soul and I pray for the return of Light daily… please pray with me.
Obama is *not* a Muslim. And he pledges allegiance to the flag, BTW.
Some Karl Rovian jerkwad started a hate email filled with misinformation about Obama and it made the rounds. Check this out:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
Snopes put it on their site because the dipsh** that compiled the hate-mail cited them as backing up all the lies. They set the record straight, item by item.
Jeez, do some research on off-the-wall statements. Willful ignorance is going to lose us every freedom we have if we aren’t diligent. It’s a short trip to accepting this kind of crap and accepting, unquestioningly, “protections” this administration is pushing to turn into law so that we’re no more than zombies working for Big Brother.
Jerry to George: “Obama is not a Muslim, not that there is anything wrong with that.”
Thanks, Siouxrose (6.17pm) for your healing words and thoughts. I will gladly pray with you for our nation and the return of Soul and Light.
> At what point does it become necessary to fight fire with fire and remove the Plutocracy, by force if necessary?
after the next stolen election.
eggs67: So it’s 3rd strike (stolen election) and you’re out?
siouxrose, I like your thinking. Moreover I think most of us can see the flaw in the ‘death star’ of us militarism; cost. The more war the repubs and their demo supporters fund, the less likely that you’re country will be able to continue the building of armies.
One of the major reasons that the British Empire was successful was they found a way for war to be somewhat profitable, instead of sinking ships; they captured them and then sold those ships back to their enemies. Instead of directly confronting Spain’s Empire, they sent pirates. The money they spent in building colonies was looked at as an investment, if it didn’t pay they didn’t try too hard to build a colony. Nor did they try to defend it too hard if it wasn’t profitable (Canada during the war of 1812 is a great example of not bothering to defend what was theirs).
In the end - coming much sooner than bush et al would like us to think - the us empire will be out of cash. Unable to pay its soldiers in money that is worth something, the soldiers will not serve. A real dictatorship might - just might - be possible, but even that would only delay the inevitable ruin of what was the USA.
If a person or group want to try to go the route of violent resistance or armed rebellion, I pity them as the damned fools they are. You wouldn’t get out of your gate before being immolated by napalm. Only their families would mourn your passing.
It’s also not needed, the banks are breaking, the weapons obsolete or useless, the politicians have no clue about what’s happening to them and the environment is about to give us a heck of a whack for having been so stupid over the last century.
elmysterio,
“You can wave your signs all you want, chant and protests… post on CD and then go home at the end of the day only to find the fascists have consolidated their power even more and you’re that much closer to a full-blown police state. Meanwhile, Iran is being threatened and I’m sure your wonderful leaders are drawing up plans to destablize Venezuela and Bolivia and now Cuba again… Meanwhile, the war machine keeps grinding along and billions of your tax dollars keep flowing to the Israelis…”
Yes this is a brilliant description of our predicament! While the people who make up the “establishment” have their head in the sand, I like all of you will keep banging away with the truth about how “I” feel. Our numbers are growing!
The facts will trump the lie! Slowly, ever so painfully slow, the establishment is faced with people who don’t believe them. How long can they keep believing a lie if their support crumbles? The whole “war on terror” is a wag the dog scenario that is supposed to convince us that the threat is real.
I’m busy right now trying to convince people who think there might be change after the election, that the whole thing is a collaboration of the MSM, Global corporate structure and our elected representatives who sold their soul.
HOW DO YOU KNOW A LIGITAMATE CANDIDATE? THE MSM HAS NOTHING BUT SCORN FOR THEM!
I agree with Jim Glover about non-violence, violence is an excuse for more violence and my government would love that excuse to enact Directive 51.
I don’t have a clue if we are going to change, but I have to be optimistic. It’s one on one and our numbers are growing in this country. Why? Because they know that somewhere down the line the monster will turn on them too.
Well, its nice to have official confirmation, but my first reaction to this would be ‘Duh, that’s obvious’. But like I said, its always nice to have someone who was in a position to know officially on the record saying this.
Of course, don’t hold your breath waiting for CNN to interview this Col.
“HOW DO YOU KNOW A LIGITAMATE CANDIDATE? THE MSM HAS NOTHING BUT SCORN FOR THEM!”
That’s sounds like what I’ve been saying.
If you see a candidate getting favorable coverage by the corporate media, you have to realize that voting for this candidate is against your best interests. They’ll serve the corporations, not you.
If you see a candidate with lots of money to run ads on TV, you have to realize that voting for this candidate is against your best interests. They’ll serve the corporations, not you.
The candidates you need to support will be the ones running few if any ads. The candidates you need to support will be the ones that are ignored by the corporate media. And if ignoring the candidate doesn’t stop the campaign, it will be the candidate that is being heavily smeared by the corporate media that you should support.
Any candidate that would represent your interests over the interests of the corporations will fit the above pattern in today’s America.
——–
The good news. I was reading a Uri Avney column the other day. He makes the point that every single time the people have decided to change things, they win. Of course, that means a majority of the people, not the small percent that read common dreams.
But, if a majority of Americans ever decided that this system needs to change, and if they are willing to commit to that change (their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor like the signers of the Declaration of Independence did), then things will change.
The ones that need to be on trial are the people who put these patsies there and the ones who keep them there. The whole thing is a travesty of injustice from top to bottom. It all starts from the false flag 9/11 attack. This is just a sideshow do distract attention and obscure the real crimes. The unfortunate inmates are just expendable pawn’s used by Bush and his handlers.
“siouxrose, I like your thinking. Moreover I think most of us can see the flaw in the ‘death star’ of us militarism; cost. The more war the repubs and their demo supporters fund, the less likely that you’re country will be able to continue the building of armies.”
Awhile back I was reading Gabriel Kolko’s book on the Vietnam War. He makes exactly this point. The way the USA fights its wars is incredibly expensive. All those jet planes, and aircraft carriers with a small city on board and Humvees and tanks and trucks and Burger Kings to make the troops feel like home …. all of that is incredibly expensive.
This means, the USA can not win a long war. All an opponent has to do is to hold on, and eventually we’ll collapse.
One of the key things that ended the Vietnam war was a collapse on the currency markets. Back then, the US Dollar was still on the gold standard. That means that anyone could present a US Dollar to the US Gov and expect to receive a set amount of gold in return. The deficits run to fight the Vietnam War were getting so big that people around the world that held US Dollars were starting to do this. This forced both the abandonment of the gold standard and the end of the war. In the end, the Vietnam war was simply too expensive.
Today we are seeing the same thing under today’s monetary system. The value of the dollar is no longer tied to gold. Instead its value is set by traders on markets and those markets set the relationships between the dollar and other currencies. What we’ve seen over the last few years is a dramatic fall in the value of the dollar.
Politicians can go around talking all they want about ‘patriotism’ and how we can’t ‘cut and run.’ But it will make no difference. The bottom line is that we can’t afford this war. It will end. One way or the other.
Unfortunately, the Republicans seem to want to go full throttle off the cliff before they admit that the war will end. And the Democrat alternative is to slow down just a bit before we go off the cliff. But both parties seem to be insisting that we drive off the cliff. And personally, I’m not real sure the horizontal velocity at which we drive over the cliff will matter. In both cases, we’ll have zero vertical velocity when we go over the cliff, but still hit the ground very hard.
“Now why aren’t there any military men of conviction, of conscience, of substance who are true patriots and will carry out their oath to defend the constitution?”
There are … but in today’s military, they don’t get promoted to General. Its the suck ups who support the system that get the promotions. The ones who would have the honor and integrity to do this get passed over and likely leave the military because they don’t want to stay a Captain all their lives.
Wow, did Osama set a trap for U.S.!
All these people thought the war would bring them fortunes.
The MIC, Halliburtons and oil companies are doing pretty good. That’s because every source of funds are getting drained to support King George’s occupation of the world.
Retirement? Sorry it was gambled away!
Oh don’t worry everything will be O.K.! Go back to sleep America!
The only thing missing from this travesty is the ghost of Roland Friesler. Other than the flag in the backdrop and the style of the judges’ robes, the Gitmo trials are a ringer for the Volksgerichtshof.
A little off topic but necessary:
OK… I’m gonna say this for the record. I’m very sick of people saying that I’m hiding behind my handle in some undisclosed country…. FOR THE RECORD: MY NAME IS SCOTT. I LIVE IN NEW WESTMINSTER BC CANADA… I am neither liberal or conservative but some weird hybrid of many schools of thought. I just was assigned this handle many years ago by a now defunct chat website and I kept it. I am not hiding. Any more attempts to flame me about this will be ignored.
elmysterio, or Scott, or whoever… Everyone on these boards can be said to ‘hide’ behind a handle. I don’t know anyone who writes on this board, for all I know you could be gw bush. (tho I and I’m sure everyone else would highly doubt that)
I’ll admit my real name isn’t Skippy, never been a nickname for me either. But I am 41. What I’ve questioned is your seeming need to act violently against a wounded beast. Change will come to the usa, just as I hope change is comming to Alberta (forty years of oneparty rule should be enough even for my province of knuckleheads)
Hey, Big Bad Bob: I have never thought much of many of McCain’s views. Everybody with a mind understands that he has been a sellout to reach this point in his path to presidential nomination. It would be a disaster if McCain were installed as president. BUT don’t put out that swiftboating nonsense about McCain’s Hanoi imprisonment. It has no more validity than what was claimed about Kerry. Zip. Zilch. The Rove method of going after his enemies is to attack them on their strengths.
The Acting Minister for Justice
Berlin, 10 March 1941
My Fuehrer,
In continuing the work of the deceased Reich Minister Dr. Guertner, I will do my utmost to install the administration of justice with all its branches more and more firmly within the National Socialist State. In the course of the large number of verdicts pronounced daily there are still judgments which do not entirely comply with the necessary requirements. In such cases, I will take the necessary steps. In order that such judgments be dealt with rapidly you, my Fuehrer, have created the nullity plea and the extraordinary objection for criminal cases. For civil proceedings, the right of application by the Chief Reich Prosecutor at the Reich Supreme Court for the resumption of the procedure, could serve the same purpose as provided in an ordinance drafted by myself. So as to avoid all such wrong verdicts, the public prosecutor’s office is called on, in this draft, to participate in civil proceedings, and should stress the right of the national community against the individual interests of the opposing parties.
Apart from this it is desirable to educate the judges more and more to a correct way of thinking, conscious of the national destiny. For this purpose it would be invaluable if you, my Fuehrer, could let me know if a verdict does not meet with your approval. The judges are responsible to you, my Fuehrer; they are conscious of this responsibility and are firmly resolved to discharge their duties accordingly.
http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/03/NMT03-T0417.htm
“RIGGED TRIALS AT GITMO”
One would have to be artless, or guileless, or naive, or smple, or shallow, or all of the above to expect anything different from this administration and its politicized military.
elmysterio, keep it up. everything you say rings true. the real problem with many americans is that they are uncomfortable with the truth. they’d rather here a lie.
“you can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” - george w. bush
What would you do in their shoes. Here you have organised a false flag in order to justify an invasion but even the Americans are suspecting all is not as told. So you pick up a few people from the middle east, torture them till they’re lumps of putty then just to make sure some smart lawyer doesn’t point out the obvious you set up a kangaroo court in the concentration camp.
The USA is a sicker country than Germany was in the 1930s by a very long mile. The major obstacle to any form of treatment is the number who attend church, by the very nature of going to church suggests the people are trying desperately to hide from reality. That is exactly what has happened over the years, how many times have I heard an American say, ” well he’ll only be there for 8 years “, very few are willing to face the truth.
Will Obahma make a difference, I doubt it even if he tried there are many sick people. Can you imagine any other country putting up with the American ” health ” care system where retired people have to pay $96 a month and for any drugs the pill pusher puts them on.
The media will push the story about these poor sods in Guantanamo as terrorists and most of America will swallow it whole.
I like your way of expressing your ideas sllawrence, particularly those ideas expressed above in the post that ended with these words:
“My nation has lost its soul and I pray for the return of Light daily… please pray with me.”
We have heard all our lives that “the price of freedom is eternal vigilance”. I know that I, and perhaps most of us, always believed that this was a warning to be vigilant about “the enemy outside our gates”, But now we know (the hard way)that “the enemy within” is a far greater threat to our freedom.
So what are we to do? The talk about “another revolution” is not the way. We have seen “shock and awe” for ourselves. We have seen that the “people” who are currently in power will no shrink from using massive power with no qualm of conscience for the humanity that they are destroying. It is folly to oppose these thugs by force of arms when the power of arms are so unequal.
We must oppose them with the force of ideas. We must speak out about the misuse of power by our government. we must speak out about stolen elections. We must speak out when media serves the monnied powerful who pull the strings. The power of truth spoken out and spoken repeatedly is our last best hope. Lastly we must speak out about the terrible deceptions that have been perpetrated upon the American people by unscrupulous persons in powerful office. We must acknowledge the terrible crimes that this administration have committed, and we must do our best to help others to see this truth for what it is.
In the words that began this post, “My nation has lost its soul and I pray for the return of Light daily… please pray with me.”
Have courage; power forces are with us; truth and our love of liberty will prevail.
We knew this for a long time now….
Ok, it all boils down to fair elections. A couple years ago I came up with a system for them that can’t be cheated on regardless of what machines are used. You can Google my name (and yes, I’m not a coward who uses an alias) and look for “A Better Election System”. I challenge or dare you to point out flaws in the ‘Better System’, and to send me comments to pmsinva2@hotmail.com
Of course the ‘Better System’ would be greatly improved by public financing of ALL elections and a return of the “Fairness Doctrine”, but that’s a ‘Best of all possible worlds’ scenario.
RE: elmysterio February 20th, 2008 8:15 pm
Scott,
What I said wasn’t an attempt to ‘flame’ you, and I really appreciate what you are saying. The only thing I have a bit of a problem is would be it is difficult to truly understand a person unless you walk a bit in their shoes (or live in their country). No rancor here ‘Just the facts, mam, only the facts’ (from the old “Dragnet” series).
On another point you made, “… I am neither liberal or conservative but some weird hybrid of many schools of thought.”, that indicates you are in agreement with my philosophy concerning governance, and how I believe we should view the people who have sway over controlling how we should act toward politics & government. A good idea is a good idea, despite the party of the person who originates it. To me that defines what a true progressive is. Unfortunately, most Republicans have an attitude of “My way or the highway”, and that is why the tail is wagging the dog in the Executive & Senate right now (a fool in the drivers’s seat named Bush, and a minority of Senators thwarting the will of the majority using a legislative technicality). Of course with the limited choices the media pundits have ’selected’ for us I see little change no matter which of their selections occupies the Whitehouse. All of them have flaws. Maybe (no, definitely) what we really need is some sort of Frankenstein party plank that is progressive instead of divisive.
On the subject of this article I wonder how many people are aware that when we invaded Afghanistan the US was paying up to $25,000 for Afghanis to turn in ’suspected’ Taliban & Al Queda suspects. What better way was/is there to settle old tribal scores, AND profit from doing so at the same time?
I vote with the prayers for Light and peace. And will add one more thought—-remember that what we resist persists. We are focusing on what we despise about the circumstances in our country and in the world, and so we give our energy to what we do not want. Where your attention goes, so goes your energy. So put your attention instead on a vision for the country you want to call your own—for a world that you can feel good about being a participant in.
We are spinning ourselves right into the ground like motorized augers by repeating over and over how much we hate what is happening in our nation.We get buried by our gloom and doom.I would rather move toward the Light, even fly there.
Imagine a different world and start building it in each and every thought and interaction you have with your family, friends, neighbors and co-workers. Empower your dreams with right actions. Yes, dare to dream! How else do you ever get out of this nightmare? Blessings to all!
Hi STAROFTHESEA — Thank you for the inspirational reminder, it resonates with so much of what I’ve been learning through Abraham-Hicks and my roots are happily deeper and finding more and more source to transform.
I can even think about the leader of the free world w/o wincing in anger and frustration.
I’d be very interested in your thoughts about my comments today in Taking the Responsibility to Protect, by Desmond Tutu
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
As is the status quo today, our own self importance is the expiditing motivator in what is done for the (believed) greater good.
Is not the truth the greater good for all mankind?
Corporate U.S. has angered every nation on the face of the earth for their own selfish needs,…you reap what you sow.
“These people [in Gitmo] are vicious killers, and they’ll get a fair trial.” GW Bush speaking Texan to the media without a piece of paper to guide him….This the man who “wouldn’t want to comment on an ongoing legal matter….”
quelle: “we must oppose them with the force of ideas…the power of truth spoken out and spoken repeatedly is our last best hope.” suppose they’re not listening to our ideas? and what will you (we) do if our last best hope fails? got a plan b?
There isn’t a political conservative’s head “out there” that shouldn’t hang in shame. What the Bush White House has done to the US is truly despicable. These trials are like the trials in the old Soviet Union. Political conservatives are completely unAmerican. Totally so.
Will we be fooled when they are all found guilty (probably some time in late October)?
http://www.ryanhartman.wordpress.com
Revolution is a redistribution of wealth from the top down.
This has never happened without absolute violence.
It will not happen here until the majority of Americans see their standard of living radically decline before their eyes. When the rednecks, when middle amerika start to lose their Chevy pick-ups, when they cannot afford beer or t.v.-BUT REMEMBER WHEN THEY COULD- there will be blood in the streets. Not before.
Scott and Jim Glover, you are both right, we are just not there yet, but getting closer. Peace to you both.
Best wishes. Nice Thread.
IS THIS AMERICA?
1. You can talk to whoever you want. However, the government may be listening.
2. You can be with whoever you want. However, the government may be watching.
3. You can be arrested for no reason, held without trial, and be executed. Purely for political reasons.
4. You and your children will pay for a war that will never produce a democratic Iraq. Purely for political reasons.
5. You are looked upon by your government as the means to keep business alive, not as a citizen. Businesses are the true citizens.
We no longer have a government that cares about the rule of law. Checks and balances? They went out the window when Pelosi said impeachment was off the table. A republic? Not the way the Founders envisioned.
I have never been so disgusted in how my government, and many of my fellow citizens, have reacted - far too many are complacent or complicit.
Elmysterio,
Glad you came out of the cold.
Sorry to be so rough on you but that is how i get more info out of people that try to discourage us.
I perform at Peace rallies and promote Folk music in Florida. I am a union musician . we have a wonderful community that keeps growing and besides that I am excited about Obama being president.
Obama is a non violent revolution.
I know now that you think we are doomed but we are getting it together.
So put us down as much as you want, I can’t do anything about that but know that we are gonna change the USA for the better and whatever digs you say won’t stop us, it only makes us more determined.
Oh and if I am a government agent, they haven’t told me yet… Maybe I’m a sleeper.
Already folks are worried that Obama may get assasinated like the others.
There is no way we are goin to have our revolution the way you want. Violence will put us back into desolatioin row. We want progress and any progress after what we have been through is revolutionary.
Yes we have a huge task but shooting at each other makes it worse for most everyone I care about.
So if you want some real change support the Obama Revolution!
Like JFK said if peaceful Revolutiion is made impossible a Violent one is inevitable.
So mysterio if your into get out the guns and go fight some military as your enemy, you still may get your chance some day, As for me I’ll I will work for Peaceful change.
I make many great friends doin it that way and the most important thing is I don’t need to get paranoid…. so much you read is by folks givin you the “Be Afraid Be very afraid” treatment…. I think lots of losers want to be afraid as an excuse to not do anything positive and make themselves feel important by putting down any effort that is reasonable.
So I enjoy this kind of work to counter the Fear mongering and cynisism that pervades our environment…. that is my gig and it is a lot of fun.
So keep puttin us down, we who have hope and are gonna elect a better governmnet than America has since Roosevelt no matter how much you say we are Doomed.
Lighten up a little, for your own good too.
Imagine that in their wide loop they did grab a real terrorist, which one is it? The round up was carelessly done so evidence of associates was lost. Torture of dozens of people who said anything to stop the torture added many false plots, associates, and targets to obscure the real information. Torturers seek to confirm the plots they think are most credible with other subjects of their torture who falsely support the believed plot to please the torturer to stop the pain. Trials have to be faked because there is no real evidence and letting them go or storing them will eventually expose the stupidity of this policy causing political damage and criminal liability. Punishment must be death for all innocent or low evidence suspects because of this system. The real terrorists among the round up if ever exposed must make a forced public confession which makes them look insane.
Conspiracy theorists start seeing terrorists under every rock to continue the silly ‘war on tare’. Anti government nuts start believing EVERYTHING is a conspiracy. Violent nuts advocate more violence and terrorists have the best recruiting tool possible.
Our Constitution and any element of good government is destroyed. Government terrorism increases and anti government terrorism becomes a n actual threat ironically justifying in fear filled minds the evil that takes the place of liberty. etc. etc. round and round
The only good news is the empire ends a little quicker.
Every now and then, people of great courage, such as Colonel Davis, come forward with the truth. They are in a position to know the truth and, at great risk to themselves, they make that truth known.
How can we ever expect this unjust situation to change if the corporate-controlled media do not focus in on what’s really happening and express such outrage that every honest citizen will rally to see that the perpetrators of injustice are held fully accountable for their malignant transgressions? Have we become a nation of cowards?
The Bush White House is like a rerun of the old Iron Curtain in eastern Europe. Same thing.
Secret trials, spying on their own citizens, erosion of civil rights……the list goes on.
What is there about the Bush White House that doesn’t remind anyone of the Iron Curtain?
Is it still the White House-or should we be calling it something else?
There is no big surprise with this revelation! A lot of us figured that one out a long time ago it was all rigged. Otherwise why deny these people basic right to counsel and try to keep it out of the publics view by trying it in Gitmo and keep the whole thing secret? If they are actually terrorist’s the government should be more than willing to let the American people hear the evidence against these men. So they could quell any accusations of wrong doing. But, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn the government has no evidence at all these people are terrorists. It’s strictly a political show trial to try and impress on the American people Republican’s aren’t soft on terror. If they execute innocent people it’s no skin off of this Administrations nose. It certain won’t be the first innocent people they have executed (close to a million Iraqi’s). They are perfectly capable of doing exactly that to further their political ambitions. That’s just how much faith I have left in this Administration. So the whole thing is going to be a insult to our country. A war criminal trying to try war criminal’s ought to be nauseating to say the least about it. There hasn’t been a thing that’s been above board with the Bush Administration yet! So why would anyone imagine this is going to be?
Jim Glover: The origination of my disdain for Americans comes from the RAGE felt by watching the events of the past 7 years. Watching a lot of talk but very little action… encountering ignorant american one after another on the net and in person. Also, not all Revolution needs to be violent. In fact, a non-violent revolution is entirely possible.
See the problem is, and not just at CD, we have all these so called “progressives” sitting around in a giant circle jerk getting absolutely nowhere. Sure, there’s been some protests, there’s some peace rallies and some awesome stunts by groups like code pink… but the reality is, that the powers that be really don’t give a crap about them. A peace rally won’t change anything. Besides, I think the situation have evolved way beyond “normality”. Something significant, earth shattering, needs to happen in order to affect some real change.
OK Scott,
I see your point.
But every peace rally and every discussion like us understanding each other better is part of that peaceful change.
It won’t happen right away and it is gonna take work, but hang on to your ass, Scott, earth shattering events are coming
I appreciate the change in how Bush has united the world to find a way forward from the madness. I am not saying don’t get angry Angry means you care.
I don’t expect us bloggers on the internet to change the world, we can learn from each other and see different points of view and to me this is all very hopeful.
But your view is true for you and maybe we both will change if say they drop the big one…. I hope that is not your earth shattering event but it would be an ending to our frustration with the speed of Change….. The revolution will pick up.
We’ll see…
Would the assassination of Obama be earth shattering enough?
In Virginia Beach there is a road called Witch Duck, so named because of the activity that took place there. An ‘accused’ witch was tied hands to feet and thrown in a nearby pond. If she survived she was a witch, then either hanged or burned at the stake. If she drowned she was innocent. A catch 22 any way you look at it.
Does it take Obama’s assassination to prove he was right about how vile Bush & his cronies are?
The greatest threat to America comes not from ‘Islamo-fascist radicals’, but rather internally from ‘fundamentalist Christian fascists radicals’ (Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez is a prime example…how could he even have the gall to call himself a Christian?). Religion is just a skirt to hide behind, though, and the real enemy is greed, desire to dominate, with a lust for power through control of the world’s oil resources.
These mock trials are a scandal that if let to go forward implicate ALL Americans in a nationwide conspiracy to commit war crimes. Is there blood on my hands if I have vehemently opposed this administration even before it usurped the presidency the first time? Probably not, but I still feel a sense of shame & guilt for not being able to figure a way to oust these criminals. The duty to serve ones country extends much farther than just militarily; it is a civilian duty also (maybe even moreso).
Burn another embassy.
For those of you who believe prayer will help.
They haven’t helped for the last 2,000 yrs., so what makes you think they will make a difference this time around?
buffalo_ken:
What the frack does American Idol have to do with the Gitmo trials? It’s just a show-it’s not a good one, but its just a show nevertheless. It makes no more sense to bash it than it did to be bashing The Ted Mack Amateur Hour or Star Search. Try focusing on the issue at hand and not blanket condemnations of people for watching American Idol-all you’re doing is just making people who are coming to these sites to learn about this story pissed off and angry enough to denounce Common Dreams and similar sites as anti-American.
As to the subject at hand: Anyway you look at it, this is disgraceful. Americans need Ralph Nader to be president, and not Clintbama.