Attacking Iran Makes No Sense
There were some things far more frightening last week than Halloween’s small ghouls and goblins — and the scariest of all is the Bush administration’s seemingly inexorable march toward military confrontation with Iran.
What are they smoking back there at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.? The very idea is dumb as a fence post and best left to the biggest pied piper of what passes for neoconservative thought, Norman Podhoretz. Yet both President Bush and his able assistant, Vice President Darth Cheney, are marching to that tune and humming along lustily.
There is no crisis here and no earthly reason to manufacture one on short notice, except for the fact that in under 15 months the Bush administration will pass ignominiously into history. Then a new chief executive can begin dealing with two ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, a national debt nearing $10 trillion, a terrorist threat to America only made stronger by eight years of Bush and Cheney and a national economy trembling on the brink of recession.
As though that weren’t a big enough mess to leave behind, like so much trash in an abandoned trailer home, these brilliant thinkers want to bequeath a third and far more dangerous war to whoever is unlucky enough to win the ongoing tussle for the right to be the next president.
There are two questions here: Why? And, why now?
Yes, the centrifuges are whirling away in Iran’s deeply buried and widely dispersed nuclear facilities, enriching uranium that can be used to power electric generation plants and, it’s true, can also be used to build nuclear weapons.
But most analysts say that even if Iran’s ultimate ambition is to build a nuclear weapon, it will take them another five or six years before they get there. Some say even longer.
How about we take a deep breath and — once we have an administration in power that believes that it is far better to talk, talk, talk than it is to war, war, war — negotiate with Iran without all those preconditions so beloved by Bush and Cheney.
How about we do all we can to support the International Atomic Energy Agency and its goal of inspecting facilities like those in Iran to ensure that the product is used only for peaceful purposes.
If none of that works, we can count on one final fallback position: If and when Iran gets within reach of building a nuke, Israel will take out crucial parts of that system.
All of this argues against Bush and Cheney doing anything more than running their mouths and pretending to still be relevant, studly and in charge as they stumble blindly toward the finish line and history’s harsh judgment.
The more thoughtful military and civilian advisors can rattle off a dozen reasons why an American attack on Iran at this juncture would be foolish in the extreme and risk setting the Middle East afire.
Just some of those reasons would include:
• Shutting down not only Iran’s oil production but Iraq’s as well, and possibly triggering Iranian retaliation against the oil production and shipping in other nations around the Persian Gulf. Are we ready for $300 a barrel oil?
• Putting 160,000 U.S. troops and another 125,000 U.S. and foreign contractors in Iraq at much greater risk, as neighboring Iran signals Shiite allies there to begin all-out war against us and sends in its own well-armed guerrillas to lead the attack. Our 250-mile main supply lines in Iraq run through the heart of Shiite-controlled southern Iraq, and they would be cut. If we think we have troubles now with the shaky Iraq national government in Baghdad, which has already snuggled up to Tehran, what would war with Iran bring?
• Risking confrontation with the newly oil-rich and energized Russian Federation and President Bush’s ex-KGB soul-mate Vladimir Putin. Since Putin has his hand on the natural gas and oil pipelines that keep our presumed allies in Europe from freezing to death, it is wise to assume that any support for an American attack on his ally Iran would be slim to none.
• Assuming that any U.S. air war against Iran would not be enough by itself — and such air campaigns seldom are definitive in modern history — where would we find the ground forces capable of doing the really hard part? Our Army and Marine Corps are stretched to the breaking point maintaining the force level in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have no strategic reserves available to help secure our allies in the Persian Gulf, much less to mount any offensive inside Iran.
When you add it all up, you have your answer: No one in his or her right mind would believe that attacking Iran now makes any sense at all.
But that doesn’t mean that Bush and Cheney won’t do it.
There were a lot of reasons why a preemptive strike into Iraq based on flimsy and bogus intelligence and far too few troops made no sense, yet they did it anyway, with trademark arrogance and ignorance.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Joseph L. Galloway is a military columnist for McClatchy-Tribune Information Services.
© 2007 Miami Herald Media Company
“If none of that works, we can count on one final fallback position: If and when Iran gets within reach of building a nuke, Israel will take out crucial parts of that system.”
Does the author of this article really believe that it is okay for Israel to attack Iran? Why is it okay for Israel to attack any country that it wants and yet always play the victim?
Nobody could get away with that game very long unless they controlled the MSM and probably much more than that.
How in the world can 301 million Americans sit helplessly by while two murderous lunatics are running this country? What kind of democracy do we have? Something is deeply wrong.
I can’t recall who said it - I think it was Hermann Goring; “find an enemy, start and war and the people will fall behind you” Maybe another Republican victory at the polls is what it is all about and who gives a damn about the death and destruction that follows.
I challenge anyone to give an example of a sensible policy initiative put forward by the Bush/Cheney dictatorial junta.
“Attacking Iran Makes No Sense”?
Then it can be nothing less than a centerpiece of Bush/Cheney foreign policy.
On the plus side, it could hasten the Rapture.
I’m just saying is all.
If none of that works, we can count on one final fallback position: If and when Iran gets within reach of building a nuke, Israel will take out crucial parts of that system.
This sentence exemplifies the fundamental flaw in the “western psyche”: Israel has WMDs and is NOT a signatory to the NPT treaty. So, what authority, moral or otherwise, does Israel possess to attack another sovereign state? Is the right to preemptive” strike a monopoly of western nations and Israel?
Galloway is NOT saying Israel should attack, if anything he is being facetious as per the extreme lengths neocons of several national hues will go to in order to promote a war that confounds the very Goddess of reason!
As I often share, this is about homage to Mars. It’s about continuing bloated blood profits for the same military-industrial complex Eisenhower recognized as a growing omnipresent evil. It’s about religion taking on the face of death to murder as a sick form of homage to its god, which given the nature of such worship speaks of only one archetypal god, MARS, the promoter of war and violence ad nauseum.
I am praying for Divine intervention. I think given the character of those at the big political wheel, even atheists might wish to do so. Out of the courting of Armageddon, what remains of humanity and Mother Earth will enter into a phoenix process of rebirth. Climate change, the US debt, our economy eviscerated, the karmic blowback of unnecessary war (a/k/a the murder of a million plus), and DU are some of the legacies that will come out of this pathetic misuse of intelligence, resources, and the sacred gift of life. It’s helpful to hope that those least responsible will pay less, but the US is an entity, and every citizen shares in some of its karmic account. To offset this scenario, as the Masters teach, we must give generously and be kind to one another; it’s also medicine of the spiritual sort to forgive others their trespasses and seek to improve ourselves during every moment of our waking, sentient lives.
And special blessings to Dennis Kucinich… may the gods bless his mission.
Have the generals weighed in? The regular army? The people who would be put in harms way for this? In that there is an international action looking at war crimes, and Nuremburg priciples, army personel might want to become familiar with them.
We need some true blue American heros who can do more than lug a gun and will just say no.
Whenever I hear someone talk about rapture, divine intervention, etc. I suggest checking out this site to put nationalized violence into context: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/.
The researcher there has calculated that around 262 million people died at the hands of government violence in the 20th century.
If that’s not enough to bring a deity to rescue us, what’ll it take for the 21st century? 262,000,001?
I suggest we get our human house in order, ASAP. Take the psychos and mobsters out of power.
What are they smoking back there at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.?
If they were smoking, maybe there would be peace throughout the world.
cedross “Why is it okay for Israel to attack any country that it wants and yet always play the victim?”
peacenick “what authority, moral or otherwise, does Israel possess to attack another sovereign state?”
The right of self preservation, and self defense. Israel, like any other nation have a right to exist. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a fruit cake. A total nut case, who believe that Israel has no right to exist, and that if he will die in a holy war, he will go to haven and get 72 virgins (or a similar religious crap)
The Jewish people had bad experience with racist dictators who voe to erase them. If (And only if) the only way to stop a Nuclear holocaust is by attacking Nuclear facilities and Missile bases in Iran, than the choices that will stand in front of the people of Israel are as followed:
- Attack Iran’s Nuclear and Missile facilities, enter an ugly war, and suffer the furry of CD.
- Being incinerated a nuclear mashroom.
Having said that, and as by Joseph L. Galloway said in the article - We still have a few years ahead of us to find a peaceful solution. There is still room for optimism.
There is no Divine to intervene. You are praying to yourself.
Be afraid? Be very afraid? I’ll just be, thank you.
The real question is not whether we should invade Iraq, but whether we should continue our occupation of the ME. Answer a firm ‘no’ to the latter question and the former takes care of itself.
templer,
how ’bout if i just build my house in your back yard?
War means money going directly from working people through the Treasury straight to Erik Prince and to all those who will be taking economic care of Condi, the Smirk, Sickie Dick, and company. Plus it does give them sheer joy to see death on a massive scale. Seventy years ago, their spiritual forebears were going after Jews, gypsies, Poles, Russians, the unfit, etc., but it’s perfectly all right, even quite fashionable now, to turn the seed of Ishmael into pulp. They have to get their rocks off somehow.
kloro, so in your opinion Israel is in the back yard of Ahmadinejad?
And if I may take the liberty to continue with the same line of thought one step further… being in the back yard of Ahmadinejad, is a reason enough to justify a nuclear holocaust?
Please explain…
Have you ever know kids growing up who liked to jump on other kids sandcastles at the beach, just for the hell of it? or kick apart ant colonies and then step on the scurrying ants and laugh with a sinister snicker?
Some people don’t grow out of their childhood diabolical tendancies.
Siouxrose 2:39 pm:
I am praying for Divine intervention.
Let’s just hope if we get to experience it that we’re hip to it! depending on your orientation, and not to upset the fundamentalist atheists, the god (who may or may not exist) seems to be a highly intelligent genius being with an outlandish sense of humor and seriousness compacted into one singular multiple kind of thing. And our ideas may not be able to grasp that.
oh and with a wild imagination. just look at the creation of bush, what a piece of work is this man!
Siouxrose, I’m glad you’re posting again. in your absence a week or so ago I had to go into a long spiel about individual and collective karma and it was really difficult!
As a very publicly practicing neo-pagan, praying to my dieties is nothing strange to me.
However… it must be commented on that the ‘God’ of both the Jews and Christians is the corrupted decendant of a Babylonian war god. A god of blood, suffering , vengeance, pain and death whose Hebrew priests of later years announced that their god had slain his wife Ashura and now ruled supreme and alone as master of all creation, with no further need of the divine feminine principle.
What do you think he would bring as a ‘blessing’ to those who call on him?
Galen, The Wicca God and Goddess principle, is not superior the Christian, Jewish and Muslim (Which surprisingly you omitted) beliefs in one God.
The root of evil within religion starts when some group are saying: “we”, or “our way of thinking” are better / superior to “them”
Don’t follow that path.
About your question “What do you think he would bring as a ‘blessing’ to those who call on him?”
My personal openion is that such a pray will bring the same result as a Wicca ritual.
Your atheist friend.
Maybe Darth ‘Shoot em in the Face’ Cheney’s Pacemaker battery could run out…
Though I think the comments are valuable, I don’t think that getting into a discussion of religion (or lack thereof) is useful to stopping the coming nuclear holocaust. Whether it is the Rapture, 27 vergins, or pagan gods, it doen’t matter in the current situation. We all have to realize that we are dealing with the decisions of madmen. There is no logic or humanity involved in their decisions.
Templer: Isreal has every right to protect itself. But it does not have the right to attack a soverign nation unless it is in self defense against an actual attack. Pre-emptive war is absolutely immoral and against international law. Not to mention the fact that Iran has not initiated a war in over 200 years. And, just as a matter of clarification, Ayatollah Khomini has declared that the building of a nuclear weapon by Iran is against Islamic law.
The reality is that the US is a real threat to the world. Cheney, et al don’t seem to have any reservations about using a nuclear weapon against any nation they want. Iran has always been in their cross hairs. This is premeditated murder on a mass scale. And it doen’t even matter why these evil monsters WANT to do this. The fact is that they HAVE to be stopped!!!
Impeach NOW!!! Get on the phone with your Congress Critters on Monday. And every day thereafter. Get them to support HR333. This is your last chance to save the planet!! This is not a test. This is the real deal.
Peace
Rebel Farmer,
It’s sunday, man, we’ve been fighting now for weeks and months on end and we’re still on the same battlefield. We’ve barely moved an inch. Can’t you give us a moments break? Do we really have to keep marching even today?
Wait, I think I saw this in a movie.
Try saying this: the use of lethal force to get your own way is wrong. Killing people is wrong. Not just senseless, mistaken or anything like that: wrong. And worshiping the takers of life, in uniform or wrong, is wrong too. We need to change our entire culture and start venerating life, not militaristic rituals of death.
When asked at a press conference, “What would be the result if we attack Iran”, Senator McCain replied with one word. ___ “Armageddon”.
Oh my gosh and super. Siouxrose and Rebel Farmer are still here? I hadn’t seen you post for so long, I feared you had quit or maybe were raptured or taken off by a UFO.
RON is still here too. Well, makes it interesting I suppose.
GEOFF 59: Thanks for the head’s up. I had to hit the road for some intense family business.
KEM: This IS my (virtual) community. I will always return to post here!
Hey PAUL BRAMSCHER: I know exactly what’s going on, I am not hiding my head under any rocks… but what IS going on, and seems like a train gathering its own momentum heading over a cliff is such that IF human agencies fail, I submit the idea (certainly not my own) that our universe consists of many hierarchies of beings of varied levels of evolution. This planet, an experiment in free will, has had too much testosterone/Mars/ego/me first/violence amperage for so many centuries and generations that in a sense this middle east big bang courting Armageddon sicko fantasy is the PRODUCT of centuries of erroneous programming and conditioning. It will take a cosmic enema to clear the slate… and perhaps that IS what’s up ahead. But realizing for all the hundreds of books that I’ve read, spiritual persons I’ve talked to, my intellect is limited… I leave open the very willing prospect and possibility that an intelligence higher than my own, and that of the intellects in this forum, might just enter into our little inflamed earth equation to help out just a little.
This planet is an amazement, its layers of ecological wonder a testament to GRACE, perfection, balance, and Divine Order. Human beings have run from the teachings allotted by masters of every creed… used the NAMES of teachers to do EVERYTHING the teachers told them NOT to do, as if inciting the name as mantra cleanses the actions taken. Actions of greed, of egregious destruction of persons, land, animals, plant, mineral and ecosystems. The debts to Mother Nature are enormous, and yes, she’s fed up and hence her climatic hot flashes, which by any other name would smell and/or be as heavy.
And so here we find ourselves, atoms in the great body of Earth… wondering how we can agitate, cogitate, integrate, escalate, or inspire change. Perhaps if enough souls wake up, a critical mass is reached and then an alchemy beyond our dreams happens. I like to think this way as the reverse would lead me to drink and or live the life of not such quiet desperation!
My humble advice to all Americans is to speak out against , like Dietrich Bonhoeffer or run like the thousands of emigrees , from the ensuing Nazi Regime.
Bush’s and Cheney’s step-by-step grand plan for empire is a mirror image of Hitler’s grand plan.
As you know Bonhoeffer was executed for treason and six million running emmigrees were too slow.
from Montaigne’s “Apology for Raymond Sebond” - butchered in brackets - [ ] - by me for modern squeamish sensibilities - my apology - in italics should be - for the Montaigne devotees amongst us. shame.
[The Stoics say] ‘Oh, what a vile and abject thing is [the human being] (saith he) unlesse he raise himselfe above humanity!’
(Conclusion: Man is nothing without (a supreme being)
Observe here [the Stoic quote] a notable speech and a profitable desire; but likewise absurd. For to make the handfull greater than the hand, and the embraced greater than the arme, and to hope to straddle more than our legs length, is impossible and monstrous: nor that [humankind] should mount over and above [it]selfe or humanity; for [humankind] cannot see but with [its] owne eyes, nor take hold but with [its] owne armes. [Humankind] shall raise [itself] up, if it please [a possible supreme being] to lend [humankind the possible supreme entity’s] helping hand. [Humankind] may elevate [itself] by forsaking and renouncing [its] owne meanes, and suffering [its] selfe to be elevated and raised by meere heavenly meanes.
“They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it [Democracy or peace].”
Tacitus
Ample evidence and proofs already exist to help us to examine, reflect and conclude that the warmongers who have afflicted the current US government like a bad disease - with a direct help from US Media - are acting in the interests of their selfish and Zionist agendas against Iran.
The Bush Administration’s aim in politicizing its criminal actions is to blind US citizens, i.e., the tax payers and the electorates into believing that the policies they are pursuing are of governmental business and the interest of the US citizens and the country! G.W. Bush soon after taking over the office of US President has been acting like a “Manchurian Candidate” - following the orders of his masters and sponsors who the world pretty much knows are the neocons of this world he is closely and ideologically connected with - like a two a joint up bodies at birth.
Journalist and author “Reese Erlich” in his latest book on Iran, explaines how the Bush Administration has long planed to subvert the Iranian government and lie about it to the American people. The book uncovers details of how the U.S. has funded ethnic minorities to carry out guerrilla raids and terrorist bombings inside Iran.
We must let our elected representatives know that we do not agree with Bush sending our sons and daughters on yet another barbaric killing mission, after Iraq and Afghanistan -this time to Iran on the basis of false accusations that are supported by massive propaganda and lies in the media to create smoke screens in front of or our eyes. Allegations of Iranian nuclear proliferation are accurately and strongly disputed by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), which has certified the absence of any evidence of military diversion after extensive and still on-going inspections. , Heinonen from IAEA issued a statement last week, confirming that Iran has always provided “good cooperation” with the U.N. agency in clearing up ambiguities over Teheran’s centrifuge technology. Moreover, Iranian leaders including the Iran’s supreme leader – Grand Aytollah Ali Khameniei are on public record, declaring their country and their religious opposition toward obtaining and the use of nuclear weapons.
What these facts tell us is that Bush’s war agenda against Iran is not the agenda of good citizens of US or UK or anywhere else for that matter. This is why people should consider it their duty to take steps to prevent Bush and the neocons to commit US citizens and its public resources to yet another Bush’s personal, illegal, unprovoked war. We owe it to our conscious for the sake humanity and our respect for worthy human values to speak out and oppose G.W Bush in his war - a potential nuclear holocaust - against the people of Iran which he will be carrying out, if we let him to, in the name of American citizens!
GEOFF: I feel like doing lunch with you tomorrow. Your eloquence and desire to raise consciousness in the forum is stirring.
We have so much of our Navy in the Persian Gulf, it would not take too many missles from Iran to wipe out a good chunk of our Navy. This is what awaits us if Bush starts another preemptive war. The carriers can barely turn around in the Persian Gulf. Our Air Force would also suffer greatly.
Iran could also destroy what little remains of our Army and Marines in Iraq too. This is madness. Whose side are Bush and Cheney on?
So this is what passes as “fighting terrorism”: Destroying our military, destroying our economy (oh, yes, big time) destroying our freedoms.
I repeat, whose side are Bush and Cheney on?
Attacking Iraq didn’t make sense…it happened.
Possible precautionary setups would take place for an attack on Iran.
1. Israel would put its military on high preparedness to deal with possible retaliation.
2. Musharraf would have to prepare for militant uprisings and possible overthrow of his government.
3. U.S. ground forces would have to be ready for increased and sustained insurgency attacks.
4. Advantageous PR roll-out for American public.
There are more, of course, but I mention these because they may have taken place or may be about to take place in the coming weeks.
1. Israel is quickly moving to enter Gaza in a limited military incursion, which, nevertheless, would entail putting state defense forces on alert for suicide bombers around population centers and provide temporary logistical and movement “noise” for a general preparedness alert for the national military.
2. Musharraf had only one card to play to prop up his rapidly failing regime and that was martial law which just took place. Blacking out the media, and most importantly, cellular activity, will make it harder for Pakistanis to know what is happening along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border; this will help if Musharraf signs off or doesn’t stop bombing raids on the tribes there.
3. American GIs are roasted alive in those armored humvees and personnel carriers. American activity slows down during the summer heat(as does the insurgency), but the cooler temperature during the holidays will them out there.
4. Picture yourself sitting with your family around the menorah or Christmas tree with CNN in the background showing laser-guided bombs finding their targets. You remember Desert Storm? Didn’t that go well. Didn’t we love being Americans during that?
“Though I think the comments are valuable, I don’t think that getting into a discussion of religion (or lack thereof) is useful to stopping the coming nuclear holocaust.”
To Rebel Farmer: I can understand your point of view. But the irony here is that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all trace their roots to Abraham. We are all of the same religious family. The Christian God is the Jewish God is the Muslim God.
The thing that is tearing the world apart is extremism within this family, but there are decent peace loving people in all parts of this family too. We need to focus on what we have in common, not our differences.
Remember that Poppy Bush sent troops in to Somalia after the election, before Clinton’s inauguration. This window stays open a long time.
Templer, could you please answer this question: Is the right to a preemptive strike a monopoly of western nations and Israel?
The U.S. and their evil allies are well aware that their slave oriented system has run up against the proverbial wall and that the demise of all that they worked for is imminent and that no amount of holes in the ground or missiles under water will save them. Therefore they feel the need to keep on a war footing with their armies mobilized and active. It doesn’t need to make sense to those people who are not in the know.
jmacneil, please keep in mind that most citizens of the US are against the war and we are trying to do what we can to stop it. The problem is that we are stuck with a president and an admnistration that is insane. Please understand that our president is ignoring our constitution to pursue his goals as he sees fit.
Please also understand that Bush claimed the presidency as a result of rigged elections, but because the Supreme Court has been stacked with Bush allies, we were not able to stop him from stealing the office.
In short, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that we are on the verge of a reaction from the citizenry of the US the likes of which has not been seen here in almost 250 years.
The attitude and actions you see coming from Bush and his administration do NOT reflect the will of the American people.
Growing Fears of a U.S. Attack on Iran, and an Easy Way to Stop It — Dave Lindorff
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/lindorff/033
“It’s time for them (Congress) to revoke the 2001 AUMF and to tell the president that an attack on Iran would be an impeachable offense.
In fact, why wait? It’s time for them to impeach him now! This is just his latest crime in the making. And even threatening a war of aggression against a nation that doesn’t pose an immediate threat is a violation of the UN Charter, a treaty the U.S. signed years ago and is bound by.”
peacenick “Templer, could you please answer this question: Is the right to a preemptive strike a monopoly of western nations and Israel?”
The answer to your question is definitely NO. Keeping a monopoly by itself does not worth the life of a single human being.
As I said before, in my opinion, a preemptive strike on Iranian Nuclear facilities and missile silos, can only be justified if it is the ONLY way to stop a Nuclear holocaust.
- I just want it to be clear that this is NOT the situation with Iran today.
————-
Now I have answered your question, peacenick, will you be kind enough to answer mine? It’s a known psychological dilemma.
Suppose you sit in a control tower of a train station, There are two railroad tracks, an unstoppable train is coming, and you are the only one that can control on which of the two tracks the rail will go.
Now suppose that on one track there is a car with driver A in it, and on the other one a different car stacked with driver B in it.
If the train was about to hit car A. Would you, switch the track so the train will hit and kill driver B instead? (And save the life of Driver A)?
Most people confronted with such question will say that they will do nothing. Even though they can’t judge who’s life is more important, A or B.
Now what if the train would come at Driver B? Will you do nothing and let B die? Or will you save B’s life and let A die?
To be consistent with the first answer, you should have said that you will switch the track and let A die, which will have the identical result as the first answer, yet when life is on the line - most people will chose to do nothing.
Now if we change the parameter, and say that on track A there is a bus filled with 50 Kids, Will you switch the track and save the lives of 50 kids, but condemned the life of one driver B to death?
And what if we talk about saving the lives of millions of people or even more? Will you do nothing and by thus allow a nuclear holocaust, or will you strike first in a preemptive strike, and be responsible for killing of a fraction of that number?
Is Israel the only country in the ME that has the right to protect itself? All this scare talk about how insane and dangerous Ahmadinejad is sounds strangely familiar, like what was said about Saddam.
Ahmadinejad shares power with the Iranian Mullahs, and they’re not going to go on a war path with Israel or its guardian, the world’s superpower, the U.S. Anyone who uses scare tactics to try to justify an attack on Iran is lying.
lillulu - Every country have a right to defend itself. Israel not excluded.
Are you saying that every nation has a right to defend itself with the exaction of Israel?
I don’t know what is going on inside Ahmadinejad’s head. But surely even you would agree that giving Nukes to nut case with the mentality of a suicide bomber - is not healthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
(It’s the same Ahmadinejad who said that there are no gays in Iran).
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/22/102249/246
You are correct though that Ahmadinejad is only 2nd in command in Iran. The Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader of Iran is sane, and more logical person.
I say let them build their bomb. They can make it out of paper mache or marzipan for all I care. If they have it, then maybe they won’t feel so threatened, and will be as a result less dangerous. I think If I were in their position, with all the nuclear powers surrounding them, bearing down, eyeballing all that oil, I think I’d want some form of “protection.” Even if it wouldn’t really work, even if the missles would get shot down or fall short of their target. I can sympathise with the need to balance the power. It is really the US and Israel who are at fault here, for pushing their weight around and threatening everyone. Really, this wasn’t such a problem until the chimp declared Iran to be one of the axis of evil.
This is not a nuclear weapons issue.
Does anyone actually believe that people who hate the west are just so bored they have nothing else to do and, therefore, decided to just be “evil” and become terrorists for kicks?
Terrorism is a reaction to injustice. Injustice is a result of greed. Greed is the fundamental illness that afflicts so many humans. Greedy people are the real terrorists.
Part of me (the inferior part) would like to say ‘nuke the greedy folks’, however, ….. maybe it would just be better to send them to a hospital, straight jacket and all.
“Attacking Iran makes no sense” ..neither did attacking Iraq
EXCEPT….. if your economy is imploding (which it was after the stock market bubble broke in 2000)
and your economy is imploding even worse in 2007, because you tried covering one damn-fool bubble with an even more damn foolish HOUSING market bubble ( plus a war or 2) Now that’s the epitome of obfuscation at it’s worst folks…..and for added spice you did both bubbles with credit derivatives on a world-wide scale and come to find out, credit derivatives are nothing more that farts wrapped in shinny paper….. then, you see, WAR is what idiots pick as the ultimate distraction (obfuscation) for fiscal idiocy. I figure the whole world is gonna want a piece of the USA’s ass when all this melt-down gets rollin’…..and it won’t take long because , just like the twin-towers , all the under supports just seem to be disappearing at a mystical rate. Only this economy melt-down was totally from the incompetence of technicians trying to pass as true craftsmen in global finance. Their hubris, had them pushing derivatives as far and as fast as they could push them because they (erroneously) figured that would add more resistance against free fall…..problem is if it doesn’t work, it compounds problems in the opposite direction.
arrogance + obfuscation = incompetence BUT
arrogance + incompetence = self destruction
canquest: “How in the world can 301 million Americans sit helplessly by while two murderous lunatics are running this country? What kind of democracy do we have? Something is deeply wrong.”
I suggest you pose that question first to Mr. Conyers and Ms. Pelosi. They already received an electoral mandate to rein in Bush one year ago, and they are sitting on it, as determined as any GOP neo-con to stonewall any attempt to bring Bush/Cheney to justice–or even to heel.
The main thing here is this. If we attack Iran, we have shot ourselves in the face
and we will not survive as a nation. If it is imprerative we must go to war with Iran, then we’d better bring all of our troops home first, get our hardware repaired, the troops well rested and gear up for a prolonged bloody war. Of course any with half a brain know it is not imperative.
We also better insure we have the money for it, because China isn’t going to finance this one for Cheney.
oluk - You are correct. For the moment there is no evidence for WMDs in Iran. And even if Iran will have WMD (in a few years) - There is no evidence that they plan to immediately use it.
The cute A or B example was part of theoretical, currently irrelevant, scenario given to peacenick.
“How in the world can 301 million Americans sit helplessly by while two murderous lunatics are running this country?”
Because congress is not doing their job. Because were a representative government. Our representatives are not doing their job. The American people have no voice! The American people have no representation! A large majority of the American people are clueless either by choice or indifference! The bus is careening off the cliff and the people that can stomp on the brake are either too stupid,intimidated or blind to see the danger!
The people here are expressing a lot of negativity!!!
We must fight back reasonably but consistently!!
Impeach and work on it
Work on getting other people into office
Work on every Congressmpersonw ho is caving in– tomorrow is Monday- I am calling Schumer and cussing him out for supproting the new attorney jgeneral Muchasyey or whaterer his name for standing around and not denouncing waterboarding
We need to get yood and angry and call up and give these politicians hell! get a love !!!
Work for peace!!!
Every day do something
I am getitng signatures for barack Obama on the primary ballot in New York
WORK!!! Don’t jsut sit and read common drems althougn that is very very important too- thanks for this article here.
Thanks to all of you- do not get discouraged– keep it up!!!!!!!!!!
METAMORPH, of ocurse you are correct.
However, when one is up to their ass in alligators, it is often too late to drain the swamp. It won’ hurt to keep trying though. Siouxrose has the right idea too, that won’t hurt either.
templer - A or B? - cute but irrelevant - in your analogy the train exists, it is seen - in our ME reality the WMDs do not exist - and even if such weapons existed the intent to attack would could never be verified beyond a reasonable doubt, in the same way that your train can be seen - all manner of pre-emptive strikes are simply immoral - would you execute all those who fit the profile of a murderer?
This is simply all propaganda designed to dupe the public in accepting another illegal war for oil resources, and likud zionist expansion fantasies of the Israelite right wing extremists, the bully boys much like our right wing crazies the KKK, neocons, FoxNews, you get the picture. The right is wrong, the left will win the day with calm logic, facts, and wisdom as always. There will be no snowball effect by BushCo this time as the the country and the world won’t fall for the same tricks leading to violence as it so foolishly did when the facts were “fixed around the policy.”
I’m neither anti-semantic nor anti-syntactic, but I hate all the Jews who are pushing us towards a war with Iran, particularly those dual nationals in important policy positions. Why doesn’t Israel fight its own wars instead of using our young soldiers as their pawns?
Siouxrose,
Unfortunately, while ” It’s helpful to hope that those least responsible will pay less, ”
if we look at our experience with the Karmic consequences of global climate change, we can see that the least responsible (e.g. south pacific islanders, people of africa, the indigenous people of the Arctic) are already suffering the most.
I agree with you that “the US is an entity, and every citizen shares in some of its karmic account.”
but, in the situation of global warming, I fear that those most responsible will suffer last, and least.
“And what if we talk about saving the lives of millions of people or even more? Will you do nothing and by thus allow a nuclear holocaust, or will you strike first in a preemptive strike, and be responsible for killing of a fraction of that number?”
So, you advocate for an attack upon Israel, or the US?
Possible future statement of concilliation from Pelosi and Reid after hustling fundig for the latest ME adventure through congress.
“Herr Bush and Herr Cheney have assured that neutralizing Iran will settle all Islamofascist issues and with this funding agreement we shall surely have peace in our time”
(Until the government of Pakistan–with nukes and delivery systems for them intact–disintegrates…or Turkey invades northwestern Iraq to neutralize Kurdish nationalists, etc.)
For the bad news, read above; for the good news, believe that the ruling elite would loose power and a new nation could form from the ashes.
The “plan” is to jam America’s foot in the Middle East/Persian “bear trap” so deeply that, for our own survival we’ll all have to give up everything, our rights and the future of our children.
IMHO.
RickinSF: You’re probably right.
I would be alot easier on everyone if we just took about 80 cents on every tax dollar and wrote a big fat check directly to the Bush Dynasty and its m.i.c. backers. Cut out the middle-man, and write it to their personal bank accounts instead.
They get what they’re after, we lose either way, but far fewer have to die.
templer -
Why do you continually insult Mr. Ahmadinejad?
I cannot agree with you that he is insane or otherwise mentally impaired in any way. Now if you said that bush was then I might agree with you.
Honestly you sound like Lee Bollinger, the fascist bigot that insulted Mr. Ahmadinejad when he came to speak. Note that bush didn’t have the courage or the common decency to meet Mr. Ahmadinejad when he visited.
Dougrambo, you’re right; less than 1/4 of the American people agree with the resident of the White House regarding the war and occupation of Iraq, but the Chimp says he’s going to continue it and has no plans to leave Iraq.
The reason that 3/4 of what the citizens of this country want doesn’t matter to this fascist tyrant and his cohorts is that he is a DICTATOR. The U.S. is not a democracy, yet it goes around the world attacking countries and “spreading democracy.” How ironic is that.
whateveryousay,
Re: Terrorism is a reaction to injustice. Injustice is a result of greed. Greed is the fundamental illness that afflicts so many humans. Greedy people are the real terrorists.
A brilliantly succinct statement of the issue.
“Attacking Iran Makes No Sense”
As me mum told me long ago, “when there’s something that doesn’t make sense, there’s something you don’t know.”
Attacking Iran makes no sense. What is it that I don’t know?
To Goeff and siouxrose, I say, Can we make that a three way lunch? You have stated so beautifully my own sense of what and how to view the current unfolding of our world’s drama. I have come to the conclusion that the best use of my energy and attention( to empower) is to continually ask for intervention/assistance from the more evolved beings of Light, and to trust that the help is there at every turn despite appearances. I also believe that my individual task is to anchor that Light, and to know in my heart that outcomes are less important than what we each do with our part in this drama that has been co-created for our education here on on beautiful earth school.
Karma is absolute and transcends time and space. While it may seem to some with a less developed view of it, that it cannot exist if the “evildoers” get off scott free while the innocent suffer, there are those who know that cause and effect is exact and goes with us from one lifetime to another. We are actually fortunate if we get to address our karmic debt in the same lifetime, but that is not always going to happen.
I see warriors on this site, and I see, tacticians. But alas, I fear there are too few “dreamers” amd Lightkeepers. Perhaps it does not matter. Numbers are not what this is all about. And for you more skeptical out there I say, Can it hurt anything to call on the angelic realms, especially Archangel Michael’s legions of the Blue Flame, and ask for their assistence to cut\through the distortions and lies, and awaken the slumbering mass consciouness of our nation? How can that hurt???
So by Templar’s logic, it is perfectly okay for Iran to attack Israel pre-emptively because Israel is the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons and it poses a threat to Iran.
TEMPLER wrote:
“Now if we change the parameter, and say that on track A there is a bus filled with 50 Kids, Will you switch the track and save the lives of 50 kids, but condemned the life of one driver B to death?
And what if we talk about saving the lives of millions of people or even more? Will you do nothing and by thus allow a nuclear holocaust, or will you strike first in a preemptive strike, and be responsible for killing of a fraction of that number?”
I’m sorry, but this is a dumb analogy, because the person switching the tracks is removed from being killed in any scenario, and therefore has no personal stake in the outcome, unlike anyone involved in the real-life situation. It also doesn’t relate in that in real life, EITHER CHOICE could result in the death of everyone ON BOTH TRACKS.
You seem to be of the opinion that Iran is bent on the destruction of Israel, and that if they are allowed to develop a bomb (assuming they are even trying, which has yet to be demonstrated) they will necessarily attempt to use it on Israel. If you are basing this belief on the widely reported “fact” that Ahmadinejad stated a desire to “wipe Israel off the map”, then you are basing your views on a fallacy. That “quote” is a widely-disseminated mistranslation of what he actually said, trotted out on every available occasion by neocons and their supporters to justify their saber-rattling, war-mongering ways. You know, just like how prior to the Iraq invasion, Saddam was labeled “a menace to the entire world”. Don’t fall for it. It’s just more neocon propaganda.
You do know, don’t you, that in 2003 the mullahs in Iran sent a communication to George W. via the Swiss ambassador, in which they basically pledged to give the U.S. everything it is now demanding of them, and George W’s response was to ignore them and insult the ambassador for bringing him this information? Look it up, it’s in the public record. He then went further and included them in his “axis of evil” speech. It appears if there’s anyone bent on causing destruction here, it is our own leaders, not the Iranians, so stop making them out to be the bad guys. The Israelis don’t have much moral high ground to stand on, either.
TheLorax - “templer - Why do you continually insult Mr. Ahmadinejad?
I cannot agree with you that he is insane or otherwise mentally impaired in any way. Now if you said that bush was then I might agree with you.”
Here is some more information why I describe Ahmadinejad as a persona with a subside bomber mentality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL_fD5cARmQ
I don’t like Bush either. Are you happy now?
cedross “So by Templar’s logic, it is perfectly okay for Iran to attack Israel pre-emptively because Israel is the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons and it poses a threat to Iran.”
Now who is being childish?
Since your post suggest that you may have difficulties in reading, and since I don’t want you to work hard by scrolling up search and re-read my comment, I’ll try summarize it here:
———- Original Message ———-
templer November 4th, 2007 9:55 pm
… In my opinion, a preemptive strike on Iranian Nuclear facilities and missile silos, can only be justified if it is the ONLY way to stop a Nuclear holocaust.
- I just want it to be clear that this is NOT the situation with Iran today.
——– End of Original Message ———-
Since I assume you are not in grade 1 (I apologies if you are) , I hope you will understand the differences between:
1. cedross: Attack Country XYZ (Including civilians) because it is the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons.
2. templer: Attack Nuklear sites and Missiles silo of country XYZ (No civilians) and only if this is the ONLY way to stop a Nuclear holocaust.
Think hard. Try to focus. Maybe ask you mom to help. I’m sure that eventually you will get it.
JayDee - You seems to misunderstood me.
I don’t support an attack on Iran. I want peace and prosperity for all.
I was talking about a theoretical possibility that is not the case today.
I repeated it at least 4 times. (Where a Nuclear holocaust is imminent unless stopped by a preemptive strike…)
Do you want me to say again that this is not the case with Iran today?
As for Ahmadinejad, (Who is 2nd in command in Iran)
The “wipe Israel off the map” speech could be understood in one of two meanings:
1. Erase Israel from the map (Genocide).
or
2. Erase Israel’s regime (Democracy) and replace it with something else (Probably Islamic theocracy)
I’m not happy with either case.
There are other comments published by Ahmadinejad. Including holocaust denial. Ethnic cleansing (In 2005 he suggested to transfer all the Jews of Israel to Germany and Austria. Only last month he offered to ethnically cleanse all the Jews of Israel to be relocated to Alaska and Canada)
I lost 80% of my family in the holocaust, and I don’t need this jerk to tell me it’s a myth.
what you people fail to understand is that the whole idea of democracy is an illusion here in America they say get out and vote make a difference its all lies we have this thing called the electoral college and the people chosen to to vote for each region are not bound by law to follow the consensus of the nation for example 2000 vote bush/gore im not saying gore would have handle it any better but the country overall vote theres nothing you can all the poltitions are corrupted sure we have freedoms some other countries dont but we cant really change anything inless we get rid of all of congress and senate it shouldn’t be a career its a civic duty and it should chosen at random by your social security number and should last longer then two terms
that would get rid of some of the crazy people in D.C but inless some major changes happen to our goverment nothing will change they give you choices but the result is always going to be the same they all have hidden ajendas when there running they promise it will be different but as soon as they get elected more of the same how about for once you follow threw and actually fix the important things like health care and education social security nope instead you take money form thoes things to make your war well right here now i would to announce right here on commonderams.com that i will be running for president in the presidential race in 2020 that will be the first time i will be able to run and i hope we are all still around by then if this guy in office doesnt have us living in some damn cave because we cant go outside because of the nuclear winter
“theres nothing you can all the poltitions are corrupted sure we have freedoms some other countries dont but we cant really change anything inless we get rid of all of congress and senate it should be a career its a civic duty and it should chosen at random by your social security number and should last longer then two terms” i meant for it to say it souild not be a career
This is what always happens when you get a religious extremist of the highest order in a position of power. I am starting to believe like my husband does these people are trying to start the mythical Armageddon. They honestly believe all of that nonsense that comes out of the Bible. About the second coming of Christ and what have you. I personally have not read the Bible in so many years I am not familiar with the story anymore. At least, not to talk intelligently on it. Except to know these are dangerous people who are in power in our country. They are the ones who have their finger on the nuclear weapons button. That prospect is truly a frightening one. I personally am more afraid of Bush and Company than I am Iran. They are enough ‘fringe lunatic’ that they are likely to start World War III without giving it much thought. I am starting to believe that religious people should not be allowed in any seat of power. Most of them are very unstable people. They aren’t capable of making a sane and rational decision regarding the welfare of this country. If they use religion in their campaign I am no longer going to vote for them.