If you are a young Muslim American and head off to the Middle East for a spell in a fundamentalist "madrassa," or religious school, Homeland Security will probably greet you at the airport when you return. But if you are an American Jew and you join hundreds of teenagers from Europe and Mexico for an eight-week training course run by the Israel Defense Forces, you can post your picture wearing an Israeli army uniform and holding an automatic weapon on MySpace.
The Marva program, part summer camp part indoctrination, was launched in Israel in 1981. It allows participants, who must be Jewish and between the ages of 18 and 28, to fire weapons, live in military barracks in the Negev desert and saunter around in an Israeli military uniform saluting and taking long hikes with military packs. The Youth and Education Corps of the Israel Defense Forces run four 120-strong training sessions a year.
"Upon arrival, the participants experience an abrupt change into army life: wearing uniforms, accepting army discipline, and learning the programs and lessons integral to the program," the Let Israelis Show You Israel Web site reads. "The program includes military content such as: navigation, field training, weapons training, shooting ranges, marches and more, as well as educational content such as: Zionism, Jewish Identity, history and knowledge of the land of Israel. All of this is taught in Hebrew in an intensive eight weeks."
"The participants finish the program after completing a short, intensive, exhilarating military experience that allows them to taste Israel in a way that they never could before-as part of the Israel Defense Forces," the site reads. "They leave the program with a feeling of belonging and a strong connection to Israel, and many return to Israel to continue the connection that was created in the framework of the Marva course."
There are, of course, gushing testimonials about the program.
"I spent the first few days of Marva doubting my decision, wondering why I had come, wondering if there was any way out. With all of the running, yelling orders, discipline and Hebrew, I felt horribly out of place," writes Canadian David Roth of his summer. "It was a completely different world from the one I was used to. All that changed, though, by the end of the first week. We had our first 'Masa' (Hike). It was very hard, but at the end, we all knew, our M16s were waiting for us at the 'tekes' (Ceremony). We got through the 8 kilometers and had our 'tekes' and got our guns. It felt amazing, and from that point on Marva was incredible."
How have we reacted when we discovered that American Muslims were being taught in a foreign country to fire machine guns at paper figures and simulate military maneuvers? And what about the summer schools in Gaza organized by Islamic Jihad designed to train young Palestinians in the basics of military life? These Gaza camps, uncovered in 2001, were widely denounced by Israel as proof that the Palestinians were teaching their children to hate and kill.
The argument in favor of camps in Israel, as opposed to camps in Pakistan, is that these young men and women are not going to come back and use what they have learned to harm Americans. They are not terrorists. Muslims, however, have not cornered the market on terrorism and violence. Radical Jews have also been involved in terrorist attacks in Israel and the United States.
I discovered an American in Israel in 1989 named Robert Manning. A huge, burly man, Manning was living in the West Bank Jewish settlement of Kiyrat Arba. When I found him he was carrying a pistol, a large knife strapped to his leg and an M-16 assault rifle. He was part of a Jewish terrorist group called Committee for Protection and Safety of the Highways that set up ad hoc roadblocks and pulled Palestinians from cars to beat and often shoot them. He was a follower of Meir Kahane, the leader of the Jewish Defense League, who was implicated in terrorist attacks in the United States and Israel. Manning served as a reservist in the Israel Defense Forces in the West Bank.
Manning was wanted in California for murder. He had been charged in a 1980 mail-bomb killing as part of his involvement in the Jewish Defense League. The bomb was intended for the owner of a local computer firm, but the package holding the device was opened by the firm's secretary, Patricia Wilkerson, who was killed instantly by the blast.
Manning, full of bluster and a bitter racism toward Arabs, used as his pseudonym the name of the FBI agent in charge of his case, a bit of humor that backfired on him by confirming my suspicion of his identify. I obtained the picture from his California driver's license and showed it to his neighbors at Kiyrat Arba. They identified him from the photo. I wrote an article affirming that Manning, heavily armed and an active member of the Israeli army, was living in a Jewish settlement. The Israeli government, until that moment, said it had no information about his location. He was extradited in 1993 and sentenced the next year to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for 30 years. He is in a maximum-security prison in Florence, Colo.
Those who go through the Marva summer program are indoctrinated as thoroughly as Muslims who go overseas and are told they are part of a greater jihad for Islam. The results, given Israel's close alliance with the United States, may not be negative for those in power in the United States, but it may be very negative for those Americans defined as the enemy, especially Muslims, should we suffer another 9/11. The program inculcates hatred and a belief in the efficacy of violence to solve the problems in the Middle East. It identifies Israel with militarism. It feeds the idea that a Jew born in Brooklyn has a birthright to settle in Israel that is denied to an American of Palestinian descent.
Jerusalem, aside from being one of the most beautiful cities in the world, is one of the most literate, creative and intellectual. Do these young men and women really know the best of Israel by spending eight weeks playing soldier and glorifying the military? Is the cause of Israel advanced by mirroring the twisted militarism of Islamic fundamentalists?
Terrorists arise in all cultures, all nations and all religions. We have produced more than our share. Ask the people of Vietnam or Iraq. The danger of a military program such as these is that it solidifies a mind-set of us and them. It romanticizes violence. It widens the divide that leads to conflict. It makes dialogue impossible. There are great Israeli institutions, from the newspaper Haaretz to the courageous Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem to Peace Now. A summer working for them, rather than wearing an army uniform, unleashing bursts of automatic fire in the desert and singing Israeli patriotic songs, might actually help.
Chris Hedges, who graduated from Harvard Divinity School and was for nearly two decades a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, is the author of "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America."
© 2007 Truthdig, L.L.C.
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93 Comments so far
Show All"I was then interested to know what would happen to them, but I never heard anything about it. It went into a black hole, a complete news blackout."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D07E3DF1438F932A35751C0A...
No "blackout" or conspiracy, really.
They were prosecuted; one committing suicide and the other sentenced. Law Enforcement is the proper tool, of course, to use against any Terrorism -- not the Military.
Like almost-all 'terrorist prosecutions' in the US, though, it should be noted that this 'plot' was a contrived sting-operation, wherein someone was enticed into the 'conceptual-intent' of endorsing or enabling a theoretical-crime by an "informant". These 'investigations' are a popular trend, being in the majority of several-fields of Federal-cases...notably Drugs/Corruption&Terrorism. They are nearly-meaningless PR events by law-enforcement to 'look busy and diligent', while they either exploit the worst within nearly-randomly targeted knuckleheads (with no prior criminal-intent or Record), or inveigle someone "inclined toward the criminal" to either step over the legal-line, or exaggerate or invent the appearance of his/her having done-so.
In this case, it was Zionists -- and apparently they were happy to 'take the bait'. But, like the yo-yo Muslim who agreed to buy the "Russian ground-to-air rockets", or the idiots who accepted 'uniforms' to look guilty of plotting to destroy the Sears Tower -- these guys would likely have just lived-out their hate-or-ignorance-filled lives, and never commit a 'crime'. If, that is, they hadn't been fodder for some Informant building a 'case' for a Fed, to aggrandizing their proper-role or to frighten the Public (or just seeking-promotion through 'success').
The lack of substance in these cases is why you don't hear much about them...after the initial and 'scary' Headlines. Those headlines are what it's all-about -- once reporters hear actual case-details, they move-on for "Steak, not just Sizzle" -- and the 'stung' are processed through the buzz-saw of the 'System'. [If you peruse FedSupp-II in a law-library (Appeals), you'll note nearly-70% of Federal drug-cases are based on these insubstantial-Stings, wherein the prosecuted had little 'Record, or prior-Intent']
"Just wondering if "greengal" has any Arab friends or relatives. If not, she's probably not qualified to speak about how to deal with them — or at least no one should take her seriously."
Thats a bunch of horseshit, excuse my french. I have no homosexual friends, and yet i lived in the gay neighboorhood of Montreal for a year, and support their fight not to be persecuted and be able to hold whatever public office post they are qualified for etc etc etc... I have latin american friends that are completely clueless about what the US has done during the second half of the 20th century to support dictatorships there. Until i started talking to them about it, that is, sometimes with their dad around breaking up in tears and retelling how he lost 20 of his friends, some of them to dictatorship violence, until he fled to Canada in part to forget about all that suffering and start anew. Your argument is flawed, to say the least.
greengal:
Of course things are not "black and white" (my sole-point you conceded elsewhere). [For example: even if America expelled it's occupants in favor of 'natives, here-before', those Native-American descendants would also need expelling (leaving the US unpopulated) -- since they, who descend from arrivals about 8-thousand years back, slew, over-powered, or contributed to the eradication of prior-immigrants via much earlier land-bridges]
Granted, it's similarly inane to suggest or demand that Israel should or 'must' address all injustices surrounding the Zionist-underpinning/manipulations leading to its re-Founding, or the later-crimes immediately before/after that Founding -- since these people are either 'gone' or getting-there soon, and "sins of the Fathers" are not inherited by those in the Here-and-Now.
But any 'peace', won through asymmetrical-warfare or other crimes-since (and these still suffered/perpetrated-by many still alive) cannot stand -- unless something agreed-upon as 'Just' takes place first -- and then guides future policies to heal or redress. A winner-takes-all attitude, even with its attendant (if offset, and sometimes falsified or 'convenient') rationalizations supporting and 'justifying' it, will never erase the impetus felt-by and motivating-those who _did_ pay a price for this re-Founding and domination-since, and who were also innocent of any initial (or subsequent) denials of this once-Homeland to its formal-'Chosen'. [Who, though long-moot, 'took' it by similar invasion/occupation once-before].
Like you, I am pro-Israel. Like you, I am motivated to be-so by a laundry-list of 'good' reasons -- rational, Historic, humane, and simply-personal among-them. [You know most -- I need not detail them to make my point]. But, in supporting my viewpoint for Israel's 'right to exist', and for its (and the world's) interests in its threatened-security, I realize that the the time for propaganda, spin, Revisionism, unfair-influence, and convenient-recall/emphasis well-over. Such prejudice, in the face of the very-real and 'living' losses and injustices done Palestinians, does NOT serve Israel's future -- since it fans the pain and hatred of aggrieved Palestinians, as 'insult on injury'. Moreover, it increasingly motivates the overwhelmingly-greater number of nearby-Muslims to violent-redress -- especially when 'other interests' (so conveniently allied with Israel's self-interests), such as Western OilCo's and 'Strategic-Globalists', pile-on for their own gains while pretending doing-so to 'supporting' the legitimate rationales behind Israel's founding/continued-security.
I have to cringe when any erstwhile-supporter or pundit/Leader uses such tactics, in argument or in setting-policy, that minimizes the legitimate grievances from past-wrongs and current-harm to at least a once-innocent population (regardless if the provocations suffered-since forced sometimes 'terroristic'-resistance and backlash to such injustice -- tactics, btw, both Israel and the US used aplenty in their-Foundings, perfected overty/covertly in subsequent-growths/conquests/'interests', and continue to employ wholeheartedly when 'needed' today). It's simply counter-productive for any of us, Progressive or otherwise, to make a comparative judgment for 'who is most legitimate or right or worthwhile', and then argue or act as if ANY side involved is free-from-blame, or MUST be 100%-accommodated by the other-Parties or 'losers'. Counter-productive because, unlike American-Natives similarly wronged when their 'lesser-interests were in the way', Palestinians are still alive/nearby in greater-numbers than Israeli's (regardless Israel's unwillingness to recognize refugees and their-offspring), and Muslims nearby (as legitimately-motivated as we by Justice and History, and also increasingly-sympathetic to the Palestinians now that the US and Israel have expanded upon 'Israeli-Interests' by inflicting them with extensions of this conflict, as excuse to treat and deprive them, similarly) are infinitely-greater in numbers and the ability to resist. A few-million Israeli-Jews, no-matter how well-armed or befriended, cannot continue to profit from any further-abuse in spite of their Interests or other-'justifications'. The conflict, and its wounds, is festers-on and is exponentially growing into a "War of Civilizations" harmful to millions-more. To summarize: no-matter legitimacies or number-of-Nobel's or Historical-Imperatives or past-Holocaust(s), Israel must resist the escalation of its already-egregious actions for the sake of its security, or it will have no-hope for escaping complete-destruction -- never-mind how many others are made to share that fate. [The same would have been true for the US during the 'Indian-Wars', if the rest of the hemisphere had been still massively populated by yet-unoccupied and well-informed/motivated Natives who knew 'they were next']
Deriding the 'other side', while ignoring the 'tits-for-tats' (which predicated-them), may be laudable when a sports-fan, or acting as biased-ideologue. But given current dire-risks and escalations of this already-horrid chain of violence, it 'adds fuel to fire', and also inspires more of the same.
Most Israeli and other-Jews, and most-Muslims (within, and now-without Israel) have, imo, long-past reached the point where they could (and are inclined-towards) resolve and settle their grievances and live in Peace...with Justice, and as they have throughout most of their long and shared-History. Palestinians, in particular, are now eager for an end to this losing-battle -- as long as they don't have to accept the ridiculous and unfair fate they are currently-offered (much-like the only options left for Natives by the 'victorious', new Americans -- eradication of their culture, Ownership, and Rights, and token 'Reservations' of impoverishment for their genocidally-reduced survivors). As for the 'threat' from neighboring-Muslims, they would be welcomely-negated at this-point, in return for a simple roll-back of the active and 'real'-threats towards them from 'Israel's-friend', that have long-taken the form of arranged-dictatorships or covert-meddling in their own survival/development/security. These arise out of self-interest, of course -- but 'Israel's plight' enables and 'legitimizes' much of it.
It's time to step-back from finding one-party more 'worthy' than the other -- both have been much-harmed, and both have real-and-legitimate needs and Rights. As oft-repeated but little-heeded, in our Nuclear-Age we can ill-afford to think that we can continue to settle-conflict by genocide or complete-subjugation. To 'win' by those/Any-means, whether through killing-off the weaker-party or forever ignoring their 'less well-regarded issues', simply can't continue to set the policies of States (we learned that in WW-II, or so many of us thought...). Their resources tempt many-parties to roll this 'Global War on Terrorism' into an expansion of Israeli-'security' by fueling an already intolerable 'Palestinian Solution' into a Western vs. Muslim conflict. That is certainly not the road to the Justice or security Jews longed-for and deserve, not any "God's Intent", nor is it an Imperialist-mistake this blue-marble can survive and move-on from. So, we all need to serve what is 'Just' (lest it emerge again later as revenge and unsettled-business), and being one-sided in viewpoint is harmful to that-end.
I'm occasionally guilty of that-mistake, and you often sound committed to such...? Better to focus on resolution and compromise.
Escosutra PA brainwash children through torture of small puppies.
ROFL now that has to win the most ridiculous bullshit posting prize of this thread no need to dignify it beyond that everyone as Escosutra is drinking the KoolAid!!!!
TO COMPARE THE 2 EXPERIENCES IS INSANE. PA brainwash children through torture of small puppies. Making them rip their heads off to desensatize them into suicidal maniacs. The Hamas insurgency is an Iranian Islamic invasion of Israel. I find this article insulting and this reflects loud and clear the scapegoating fester from the imperial liberals, your fears and unwillingness to acknowledge your own festering over consumption. Pathetic. I do not know which is worse, the imperial liberal scapegoating or rapture seekers.
Like God did to the Canaanites and Philistines before them God used the 'local sheriff'( in this case,Rome) to 'evict' the Jews from Israel in 70 AD for having blatantly and repeatedly violated the "terms of their lease agreement"(the Old Testament)? They were warned by their prophets repeatedly, but when they turned against their Messiah, It was time to go"your house is abandoned to you" said Jesus. Maybe that's why there's so many problems in Palestine. Unlike when God said they could return after their 70 year exile in Babylon in the 7th century BC, God hasn't said it's ok to come back. But, don't take my word for it. It's all written in your Bible.
Siouxrose .. i respect your attempt at trying to infuse a higher consciousness ... BUT ...
"All the hate and we are progressives?"
This statement doesnt entirely hold true. Irrespective of your political ideology, if you are not incensed and outraged by the actions of your/my government as well as that of Israel and the UK in regards to gross violations of human rights and MURDER, then there is something wrong with you. I feel a lot of hate, anger, revulsion and if that prevents me from being a Progressive then so be it !! boohoo ...
"To make Israel the scapegoat does smack of anti-semitism.."
It is what it is. Antisemitism has nothing to do with it and we should be able to say what the truth is without that being used as a battle ax to suppress the truth. It is what it is and the anti-semitic charge is exploited and employed to silence the outrage. Israel is not a scapegoat--it actually has preferential treatment. Jews however, possibly put themselves at risk by their silence and allegiance to their fatherland--my country right or wrong, fingers crossed that Americans keep viwing the Muslim as the terrorist who threatens the security of Israel rather than knowing about Israel's racist iron fist. It is what it is and there can be no peace without justice.
I wonder when the Bush family's long history of anti-jewish actions will manifest itself in W's generation? Maybe a nuclear attack that would wipe out Israel in the late summer of '08 would allow W to declare martial law, suspend the election, and bring peace to the middle east in one final act of ignorance.
We would have to blame it on Iran, but that is simple.
ANNEY: HELPFUL posting. Amen.
This discussion makes me SAD. All the hate and we are progressives? The nature of this inflamed debate is exactly why I enter this forum as a spiritual teacher to LIFT consciousness. Victims of ism divisions, who's right, who's wrong, etc. The premise--and it applies equally to all nations and all persons, whatever their religious affiliation--is the MISUSE of force. So long as the developed nations elect to traffick in ARMS we will see violence escalate. Israel's policies of aggression mirror those of the US, UK and other nations. They are ALL wrong. To make Israel the scapegoat does smack of anti-semitism, although to an extent, Israel's current leaders have brought this fate upon themselves.
As we bicker over these theoretical positions, what is needed is the will and means to transcend polarized thinking to arrive at solutions that will ensure a continuation of life for all of us. Remember: mankind is like a great tree possessed of various branches, and as one part of that tree aims to cut down another, the entire Being is placed at risk. This is the equivalent of suicide. Why do you suppose EVERY spiritual master has taught the need for forgiveness? Based on our egos and socialization process, we are inclined to favor "one side" or another, but this psychology is exactly what fuels the disasters we now face. Ours is a world broken, gone sick on irreconcilable divides and divisiveness. I would hope that here among the enlightened we might work towards something better. Evolution (of souls) can and MUST happen!
The solution also is not to suggest that people go back to where they came from, or that the status quo of the past be restored.
_________________________________________________
But when I was a kid, Leon Uris extolled the Zionists for reclaiming land explicitly dedicated to the Jewish people by the Creator of the Universe in ancient times!
There was even a popular movie, and a song beginning: "This land is mine / God gave this land to me".
I'm pleased to learn that this concept has been revealed as totally bogus.
Incidentally, to retrieve a phrase from more recent history: among other things, Hedges correctly points out that news of Arabs or Muslims sponsoring military training camps and indoctrinating children into a righteous warrior culture is routinely condemned and excoriated as Part of the Problem.
Whereas, to the extent that the Marva program is publicized, it's presented as a worthy endeavor that is Part of the Solution.
Hedges is asking what is wrong with this picture. To some, the answer is ab-so-lute-ly nothing, alas!
I sure wouldn't want my kids to go to a military camp and learn how the Israeli government trains its young in warfare. I'd rather my kid went to a loving Israeli home and learned about an Israeli community. The Likud government and the Israeli people are not the same, just as in America where the Bush government and the American people are not the same.
Perhaps we should all move back to where our ancestors came from -- but I don't think there's enough room on the (no longer existent?) African savannah for all six billion + of us. How do you think the locals would feel?
Just wondering if "greengal" has any Arab friends or relatives. If not, she's probably not qualified to speak about how to deal with them -- or at least no one should take her seriously.
By the way, "greengal" lied when she said that no one would take Jewish refugees during the second World War. At least one convoy consisting of nineteen ships mainly carrying Jewish orphans and other Jewish and non-Jewish refugees sailed from Britain to New York during the war. At least one of the ships in this convoy was sunk by a German submarine attack. My aunt and her family were on one of the ships that made it.
curmudgeon99 -
It is all about the article and the dynamic behind it that keeps the subject taboo. By suggesting that it is a distraction only serves to reinforce the taboo. Speak freely.
(except for the bilingual crack perhaps?)
Y'all got suckered again into a meaningless distraction from Chris' article.
It's all about letting your egos get involved which usually puts thinking process in neutral.
Here's a question for you: How do you feel about the fact that this country is moving towards becoming a bilingual country - Spanish and English?
Greengirl writes:
"Everything they had had been stolen from them, their communities had been decimated. They had nothing to go back to."
She refers to the European Jew here but such sentiments must not be applicable to the sub-human vermin, Palestinian?
And this:
"Israel is, and always has been, in a financial strait jacket, because it is constantly rebuilding what the suicide bombers, shells and rockets destroy."
Breathtakingly ignorant considering it is the Israels who demolish Palestinian homes and seize the land for Israel.
"Why are they now shelling and rocketing Israel from Gaza instead of working to return to a normal autonomous life with their own government?"
The usual garbage about the sub-human vermin--the Palestinian terrorists with NADA trying to defend themselves from the Israeli killing machine of state-of-the-art weapons, bulldozers rolling over Palestinian homes so more Jewish homes and Jew-only (you know like white only water fountains) roads can be built on shrinking Palestinian territory, illegal targeted killing--state terrorism (the victims are always "terrorists"), occupation tanks, checkpoints. Israel pulls the strings--limits water, electricity (sound familiar?)access to food, education, medical care and builds walls on Palestinian land. Israel has violated more UN resolutions therby halting a true and just peace. And don't even think to start with "Barak's generous offer" of prison camps or nuclear dump sites as land to trade--while Israel grabs all the best land. And what a democracy Israel is with it's Arab second class citizens and Likud ruling elite--but democracy is no good for Palestinians--their democratically elected governments aren't legitimate. If their governments are not corrupted pawns then, of course, they are terrorists. Not to forget the psychologally defeated mindset of the Palestinian and the loss of hope that is ripe circumstances for suicide. Grengirl mentions no one would take Europen Jews, but who will take the Iraqi refugee--now in the millions? Certainly not the US.
Oh, but it is okay, because after all look at the Native American... Well, if you want to apply that as furthering legitimacy--how about Nazi Germany? Are you suggesting that there eradication programs were acceptible under that argument?
All this is achieved by the de-humanization of the Palestinian people--and by extention, all Arabs, well, Persians too, and all Muslims--they are all evil terrorists a threat to the weak and defenseless Israel who never poses a threat to it's neighbors with it's nuclear warheads strategically pointed.
Lies lies, contemptible lies and spin. What turns my stomach the most are the lies and on my dime. My tax dollars going to pay for a racist state, draining the US treasury, dictating US foreign policy, sacrificing US lives of poor children to come home to less funding for education and healthcare.
"A land without a people for a people without a land". Another myth, as if the Palestinians were dirt- not the "chosen people", like they were some kind of...master race.
Zionism is racism.
You count on us being ignorant and continuing to be ignorant by deliberate design. I suggest you stand down.
greengal:
Get a clue:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Suppressed knowledge in the US.
Oh here is a beauty:
"How about 5 million Jews surrounded by a sea of over 300 million Arabs, which in my opinion the great majority of of whom do not want them there and will do anything, as demonstrated to kill them or remove them.
Is there a solution, certainly, but will it happen I very much doubt it"
Here is a solution for you--a "final solution" of sorts--why don't we slaughter the 300 million Arabs, Persians, whatever dark-skinned peoples to protect poor beleagured Israeli settlements of fundamentalist Zionist yuppie kids from Philadelphia, or scoured Russian peasants paid to inhabit illegal settlements while Palestinians are corditioned off into ghettos. Oh yeah, the final solution--something the Empire is providing for the satellite ME regional military SUPERPOWER--recipient of the lion's share of US foreign aid-thanks to powerful Likud lobbies, while poor US kids do the fighting and dying and the folks back home see a falling dollar and eroded standard of living.
Poor widdle Israel.
Right.
Thank you for that reminder Curmudgeon. Much needed too, as I was almost suckered into taking some swiftbait. heh heh
Chris Hedges is my hero. I don't have many. His writing is outstanding. He is courageous. The last paragraph of this essay is the clincher. The man's got spirit, life, and passion in him. Decent, honest, and then some.
I clicked on that first link he provided and perusing the sites I found this (below). Well shut mah mouth! We have been had! We have been told over and over and again via countless Hollywood movies starting with Exodus...onto multiple versions of Anne Frank...onto Schindler's List...and too many in between to list... and via scores of books, documentaries that the Jewish State (Israel) was founded in response, in reaction to and post facto THE Holocaust (*tm), which ended in 1945. But lo and behold, the plans for a Jewish State, specifically a Zionist Jewish State and specifically in Palestine were in the works lonnnnnnnng before that. In fact, ah hell, let's just let the "World Zionist Organization" speak for itself:
De Facto Government of the State-on-the Way
The Jewish Agency was established by the World Zionist Organization at the 16th Zionist Congress, in August 11, 1929 as a partnership between the WZO and non-Zionist Jewish leaders, among them such luminaries as Louis Marshall , Leon Blum, and Felix Warburg. The Agency was set up in accordance with the stipulation in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine (1922) -- the goal of the mandate system was to eventually transfer authority over territories taken from countries defeated in World War to the local population -- that a "Jewish agency " comprised of representatives of world Jewry assist in the "establishment of the Jewish National Home . . . in Palestine." The story of the Jewish Agency is virtually identical to the history of the Yishuv (the Jewish community of Palestine).
http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Home/About/History#t6
--------------
1922, eh? Funny, I'd read about this sort of information before. About correspondence and meetings between Zionists and Lord Balfour, and those letters promising the (partitioning of the) country of Palestine to the Zionists. But I couldn't be sure that it wasn't anti-Jewish propaganda. Until now.
The Holy Land. Well, is it holy enough yet, ya think? Or do we need more blood sacrifice? C'mon let's paint the whole region red! waddya say. Why stop there? Why not paint the whole planet red? Besides as Chris Hedges says, war is a force that gives us meaning!
*not to be confused with any other holocausts/genocides i.e. Native Americans, Africans, Russians, Armenians, Cambodians, Rwandans, Congolese, Iraqis, Sudanese, (I know I forgot some) et al...but since they're not Jewish they don't really count! Never forget. 6 million. 6 million. 6 million. Never forget, else you're just an anti-semite. geeze.........
Amazing how y'all got sidetracked from discussing and commenting on the article.
I ahve NOT read all the arguments but I recognize some of the names who seem to insert comments/incindiary statements/exaggerations to distract others from the gist of ANY article that is at all critical of Israeli policies and actions. Even with such a well thought out and balanced observation such as this one by Chris Hedges.
Ignore the rants - we lower ourselves when we reply. It plays into the hands of the person(s) ranting and their goal of distracting one's reflection on the article under discussion, as if the truth will go away if they can focus attention elsewhere. Just a case of Israeli 'Swiftboating'.
dcbeltway ... good point ... reading her/his posts just reiterates my earlier statement about zionist scum masquerading as victimized jews.
Whether you actually called him an Israel- or self-hating Jew makes no difference. Stop it.
Gyptian the woman is an absolute troll and she's suceeded in diverting the discussion from the fact that Israel does have military camps and there are also camps up in NY in the Catskills that train Zionists. That was the point of Hedge's article.
You know, Ostrogoth, you said something interesting. I noted that iyamwutiam was suggesting that he was an "Israel-hating Jew." The phrase you used in your tirade against me was "self-hating Jew," which is not what I said. If he is not just doing some on line posing for dramatic effect, you may however be right and he may be that, too. Most likely a freudian error on your part, rather than a conscious and intentional observation, but it was perceptive all the same.
Annemarie: visible vs audible minorities -- interesting. No, I don't see how that is offensive. There is no implicit judgment of any kind in either term.
Greengal, I have no respect for the "self-defense" justification for Israeli ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. I didn't call you names or resort to personal attacks. You resorted to a personal attack by calling him a "self-hating Jew," the typical smear used by fanatical defenders of Israeli apartheid to intimidate Jewish dissenters. My lack of logic or balanced argument? I'm not going to argue about whether Israel has a right to steal the West Bank.
"there will be no peace until you and your ilk realize that verbal attacks on others who explain their position constitutes intolerance"
There will be no peace because the murderous, right-wing israeli zionist scum will never rest till they slaughter every last one of the Palestinians. They learnt their methods from the Nazis and realized it works very well.
This outrageous position that 'because Americans are killing Iraqis its okay for us to kill Palestinians' (which is really what your argument boils down to) is distorted and provides no justification to israeli oppression. Mediators have consistently failed because all israel did was hand out scraps to the Palestinians all these years. They were never and will never be interested in a peaceful settlement.
You know they have this phenomenon in Canada whereby they call certain people *visible minorities*. But Jews aren't a visible minority. They're more like an *audible minority*.
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That's paraphrasing (from memory) something I read about a decade ago. btw, That reference to Jews as an "audible minority" has nothing to do with music or any perceivable/noticeable (audible) accent on their part.
So I'd like to ask the progressives in here, is it anti-Jewish, bigoted, offensive, or stupid to say that Jews are an audible minority?
btw, I once found that description funny. I no longer do.
Humans live and die under human rules. What does God have to do with it?
Ostrogoth: Why aren't you calling iyamwutiam on the following clearly snotty comment?
"Why don't you go back to Azerbejain, Turkey or something - it is about time don't you think? After all - the US is already over populated and lord knows with all this outsourcing going around its not like you wil be missed."
I doubt anyone is impressed by his fuck-you attitude, or yours for that matter. Obviously, you have a double standard. BTW, referring people here to the other thread will further expose your own lack of logic or balanced argument. People like you and iyamwutiam always resort to personal attacks when they can't address the issues in a logical or reasonable fashion. I was not calling him names. I was taking his snotty answer to its logical end point.
"The solution also is not to suggest that people go back to where they came from, or that the status quo of the past be restored. That is irrational and unreasonable."
"iyamwutiam:
This is the American Indians' homeland. They were here first. I think that you should take the first step toward reparations by going back to wherever your ancestors came from."
You have a severe case of hypocrisy - take two college courses in critical thinking and call me in the morning. Sheesh what a hypocrite - just keep revealing yourself to be pathetic- I really feel sorry for you.
On a more serious note, there will be no peace until you and your ilk realize that verbal attacks on others who explain their position constitutes intolerance. Intolerance and xenophobia always perpetuate war and killing. Building walls is not the constructive solution either in Israel or here on the Mexican border. The solution also is not to suggest that people go back to where they came from, or that the status quo of the past be restored. That is irrational and unreasonable.
That is why mediators are often essential in conflicts, and BushCo have totally abdicated on that moral responsibility on the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Nor have any other countries, or the UN for that matter, stepped in to fill the vacuum. BushCo have made it worse.
Ostrogoth: The Palestianians wanted territorial sovereignty. Israel has given it to them in Gaza. The first thing they did was destroy the apartments and dwellings, instead of relocating Palestinian families to live in them. Why is it Israel's obligation to give them all these services? Where are their arab "brothers and sisters"? Largely looking the other way — "who me?" And how is the aid that is going to them being spent? On shells and rockets,instead of on food, water and clothing.
Are you some kind of trust fund kid or something, that you feel these people have absolutely no responsibility to lift a finger to help themselves?
greengal October 1st, 2007 6:40 pm
Greengal, don't try to blow smoke at me. Israel gave no one sovereignty, either in the West Bank or in Gaza. Israel bombed the electric grid in Gaza to terrorize Palestinians and punish them collectively for their solidarity with Palestinians in the West Bank. Same for medical facilities in Gaza. Israel controls all tax revenues in Gaza and the Gazan economy, and has simply stolen those revenues. This is racist terrorism, pure and simple. Stop being such a hypocrite, the world isn't buying into the "self-defense" ploy anymore. You talk like you've never read an article on this website.
Oh, by the way, nobody's impressed by the smear "self-hating Jew," as you called iyamwutiam, anymore. The implication is that someone who's honest is betraying his ethnic group. Think about the implications of that insult, and don't use it again please.
Rachel Corrie ring a bell - duh
Hmmmm, still don't want to say what the country of origin of your ancestors is, do you, iyamwutiam? You just want to imply that you are an Israel-hating Jew who would be entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship. That explains better than anything I could say why Israel has so many nutcases of its own on the extremes.
Why don't you go back to Azerbejain, Turkey or something - it is about time don't you think? After all - the US is already over populated and lord knows with all this outsourcing going around its not like you wil be missed.
I'll go to Israel then since I can have dual citizenship and have my lodgings paid for with MY tax dollars.
Iyamwutiam:
You know, I have a better idea. You should make a trip to Washington, DC, and visit the Holocaust Museum and the new Museum of the American Indian. Maybe you can stay with dcbeltway. The two of you have alot in common.
iyamwutiam:
This is the American Indians' homeland. They were here first. I think that you should take the first step toward reparations by going back to wherever your ancestors came from.
And you say African Americans are being denied a homeland as well. Do you want to send all of them back to Africa, even though this is their home and has been for generations? And the same for Arab Americans, you want them all sent back to their ancestor's country of origin?
dcbeltway - amongst MANY others - I urge you to check greengal's posts on Zunes rant agaiinst Ahmadinejad and judge for yourselves the objectivity of comments posted. In addition there is also mookie - who has yet to make an appearance.
It is pretty clear when there is a bias and by whom. Reading an article and discussing the premise (in this article- how different is indoctrination and is there any such thing as good indoctrination mired in dogma in the jewish/arab microcosm regarding specifically Palestine) is not a priority it seems.
Instead - we have the simpler approch of flag raising, nationalistic jingoism and if all else fails name calling - supposedly clever -referring to them as neocons, anti-semitics, infiltrators etc etcetera.
However - I urge greengal amongst a host of others to actually do a tally (since you wish to see things in black and white - how about for and against) and the results -do speak for themselves.
Therefore despite an entire industry that propagates the injustices reaped uon the "jewish" people , and the mandatory watching of Moses and the 10 commandments, Schindler's List, almost daily reminders of the Holocaust- to reinforce that deference for the Jewish people despite their rather nasty actions must all be viewed in retrospection of the centuries of calumny, persecution and of course bias they have suffered. Due to this - like inncoent babes or severely pyscopathic tramatized people - they can never be criticized, be asked critical questions andalso to ensure that they maintain their fragile hold on some semblance of sanity due to centuries of repeated PTSD (Post Tramatic Stress Disorder) disagreed with- not EVEN in a forum.
Rather unique I am sure - since American Indians, Arabs, especially African Americans, to name only a FEW are NOT be granted this compassion - instead they are to be denied homelands, reparations and an never closed spigot of other peoples money. After all - there is only one uniquely qualified world wide victim that must have ALL the worlds' compassion, forgiveness and support. The other's of course should get over it and realize it is the way of the world.
"Just getting the other side of the story out is a constant battle."
Yeah, I know just how you feel.
Siouxrose more of us would be doing more constructive work and "playing nice" if we didn't have to constantly refute the onslaught of Zionist propoganda by people like Greengal. Just getting the other side of the story out is a constant battle.
"why not just suggest that everyone in this country who is not a native american be sent back to where their ancestors came from?"
Thats a brilliant idea actually. I suggested it before and there werent many takers ... ah well !
Israel is not in Lebanon anymore cause they got their ass kicked by a rag-tag band of guerillas. Ofcourse this is temporary. They've already provoked Syria as a test run for their bombing campaign against Iran. Anybody who believes israel is a peaceful state needs their head examined. Israel is the most violent, oppressive, racist state in the middle-east.
The Arabs and Palestinians are truly cursed. They have to put up with their own dictators who oppress them and then along comes this zionist 'state' which finishes the job by slaughtering and murdering them.
As for that moron who thinks most israelis are peaceful:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/01/4239/
As for numbers and statistics on how many Palestinians are killed for every israeli this is one amongst many sites that keep these stats.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html (dcbeltways link)
Clearly, the zionist pigs that periodically rear their ugly head here need to go back to their crypt.
greengal writes:
"And how is the aid that is going to them [Palestinians] being spent? On shells and rockets, instead of on food, water and clothing."
Utter nonsense. One might as well ask how Israel uses the $3Bn in aid it gets annually from the US. Answer: weapons. As for Gaza, its human needs (unlike wealthy Israel) are staggering, and only a tiny fraction of its income in all forms is going to a tiny amount of weaponry.
"you don't have to fight for your right to exist - this is a conflict between Arabs and Jews that's been going on for 60+ years."
Longer than that, actually. But for the last 60 years Israel has been winning hands down. Israel's existence has not been seriously threatened militarily since 1973 at least (and even then its nuclear weapons served to ensure superpower intervention to prevent their use, or Israel's destruction). The Palestinians have been suing for peace since the mid-1970s. Israeli belligerence, paranoia, racism and expansionism have been the major obstacles to a two-state solution.
"Israel is, and always has been, in a financial strait jacket, because it is constantly rebuilding what the suicide bombers, shells and rockets destroy. It does not have "oodles of money.""
Israel has over $120Bn annual GDP, plus $3Bn direct subsidies from Uncle Sam. The direct economic losses from suicide bombers and all attacks on Israel are completely insignificant, although the effects on tourism and investment are probably felt. Compare this with the utter devastation wrought on the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon by Israel's US-provided "conventional" weapons of mass destruction and Israel's economic strangulation of Palestinian agriculture, industry and civil life.
"Israel lives under a constant state of seige. Why don't you find some numbers on the death toll that include all the Israelis who died from rockets and shelling coming from Lebanon for the previous several years"
The numbers are tiny, and in no way comparable to the tens of thousands killed by Israel's wars in Lebanon since 1981. Similarly, in the conflict with Palestinians, during the worst days of suicide bombings during the second intifada, the kill ratio came close to 3 Palestinians killed for every Israeli, but overall the historical ratio is much higher. Israeli terrorism against Palestinians is many times the reverse, and yes, I am talking about deliberate killing of noncombatants. I am talking about murdered children.
And after all this is said and done, what my country did in Vietnam, Panama, Iraq and Somalia, and is doing today in Iraq and Afghanistan is many times worse.
Why do Arabs have to pay for the sins of Europe?? What did the Palestinian do to deserve Apartheid Greengal?? You haven't answered my question. As for the Jews who have chosen to live in Europe, America and other societies outside Israel I applaud that and welcome them and thank them for not endorsing Israel's racism and apartheid by living in settlements in the West Bank.
MarcAL October 1st, 2007 9:14 pm
Daaaaaaaaamn…that article was an eye opener!!! and so true.
My Opinion: Biggest mistake of the modern world…the British installing a group of people…nothing against the Jews…into a location where the group wouldn't get along. That was truly crazy.
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Yeah, wasn't it though! Crazy like a fox ;) Or in French "ruse comme un renard" tricky as a fox ;)
" I guess the British didn't like the Arabs…ya think?"
Yeah, and methinks that they didn't / don't like Jews much either. They knew precisely what they were doing.
I applaud those that transcend polarized thinking to SEE and ARTICULATE the bigger picture. Kudos today to: Uncommon Dreams, HUB CAP, ZOYA (must be that magic realtor "thing," as in "Location! Location! Location!), and Mark Abram. NOTHING is helped by blame-games, we need to embrace new strategies for forming bridges so that mankind can evolve beyond this me-right/you-wrong cave man club each other to death with the singular advance on that strategic objective: an evolution of weapons!
Well, the US has always supported 'our terrorists'. After all, if we wanted to start bombing all terrorist camps, we'd have to start with Miami.
Daaaaaaaaamn...that article was an eye opener!!! and so true.
My Opinion: Biggest mistake of the modern world...the British installing a group of people...nothing against the Jews...into a location where the group wouldn't get along. That was truly crazy. I can imagine what would happen if we stuck a group of Mexicans (by force) smack dab in the middle of Texas...I don't believe that would go over too well either and we'd probably see violent confrontation Biggest mistake of the modern world...and now we all pay for it. I guess the British didn't like the Arabs...ya think?
You know dcbeltway, that is the second time I have heard that one today. Do you think that the US should send its black population back to Africa, too? While you are at it, why not just suggest that everyone in this country who is not a native american be sent back to where their ancestors came from?
Greengal: Israel lives under a constant state of seige.
Then they can go back to Europe. Why do Arabs have to pay the price for the sins of Europe?
Your problem, dcbeltway, is that you fly off the handle into your convenient stereotypes before you finish reading. But you are not alone in this -- you have plenty of company here. I did not condone the incursion into Lebanon, despite the provocation. My comparison was to this country's completely unprovoked attack and Iraq and the fact that we are still there. You do recognize that Israel is not in Lebanon any more, don't you? You do recognize that few, if any, things are black and white, don't you?
Wars do not end when the last bomb is dropped. Wars destroy lives, break people figuratively and literally along with nthe landscape and infrastructure of nations and survivors are forced to rebuild what was destroyed. Civilians carry the impact of war their whole lives through trauma. Don't be so naive!!!!! Look at the Israeli Jews themselves who survived the Shoah/Holocaust they are still living with those scars which is why some of them have turned into the oppressers they once condemned!
Commmondreams readers are well aware that the Likud and Neocons do not represent the Israelis or us. However, we all aren't in charge at the moment and this is the problem so spare us the lecture.
You are right greengal. We should remember that we all have actually had the wool pulled over our eyes. One "nation" tries to wipe out a group of people who have been connected throughout "Europe" for decades, following a madman in his relentless campaign to return "economic power" to the "Christians" of the land, (during the middle ages, the "Jews" were the only people taking direct interest on loans (there were of course as there always is, loopholes; the church took rent on land for instance), it used to be considered a sin to take money for the time it was borrowed, time belonging only to "God") another "nation" decides to drop 2 nuclear weapons on a civilian population, and a third "nation" built up a repressive regime killing millions of their own people stifling freedoms and growth in the name of coercive, nonexistent equality. These powers, these meddlesome murderers somehow decided it would be best solved by appropriating land from a weak, unwitting and uninvolved people with excuses given from crusades, history and myths. I will never understand why "Germany" was not given to the "Jews" instead of Palestine (actually, that is loaded, I know why), it would have been the proper solution nevertheless. I will never understand how anyone could conceive dropping nuclear weapons on civilian populations and the horror, two at the same time. And I will never understand why some people think that in order to gain power, they must take it from others. How many millennia will need to go by before we realize that true power lies in sacrifice of self. And yes, I still think the "Jews" of "Europe" should have allowed "God" to keep his "time", inadvertently keeping "Europe" in the Dark Ages forever. Gutenberg did them a great disservice as well, knowledge kept and hidden in the churches, only available to the true seekers of it, protected the rest of the world from the myriad of evils that were about to leap from the hearts and minds of "Europe" in the form of weapons.
In the end I must draw the conclusion, that all the people around me on this planet are insane, including those that came before me. With this reasoning, I too gladly join the ranks of the insane and laugh at the complete and utter futility of man in the flesh, wishing that one day at exactly the same time, we might All see the greatness of Robert Nash's equilibrium and give up our All for each other, that we might truly benefit ourselves.
The reason I put things in quotations is because I don't believe in their intrinsic definitions, I do believe the world is full of assholes and some nicer people, who every now and then, also behave like assholes, I would like to think that I don't fit into any of the categories we humans are always creating in order to take distance from other people, classifying them instead into ideas, beliefs, moral codes, symbols, people and sexual preferences. We were not made to be classified. Give to "Israel" "Germany" and give to the "Palestinians" "Israel", or just stop classifying people and realize the truth, I repeat, the man next to you is all you have, you in and of yourself are nothing, give him all your power and everything else you have and let him do the same to his neighbor, and watch the glory unfold.
Hubcap_halo-- I'm with you all the way.
Is Israel still fighting in Lebanon?
Greengal Israel pulled back??? What after they clusterbombed the hell out of Lebanon so its unlivable and children blow off thier hands thinking the clusterbombs are toys, farmers cannot till their fields and feed people, not to mention that the Israeli missles destroyed highways, the Beirut international airport, schools, hosptials and other civilian infrustructure? Then the Israelis ask us Americans to give the Lebanese aid and rebuild after they bought our bombs to destroy Lebanon? Don't give me the usual bullshit argument that Israel used restraint. I don't buy into that nonsense. The bad things the US does in the Middle East do not excuse the equally horrific things the Israelis do and outrageously enough they do it in partnership most of the time from Iraq to Palestine. I condemn both governments.
Israel is also supporting the military regime in Burma with weapons:
http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/reg.burma/archives/200008/msg00005.html
"The Jewish refugees who moved to Israel didn't have homes to go back to. Everything they had had been stolen from them, their communities had been decimated. They had nothing to go back to."
Sigh. Im fighting to hold back my f*&king tears. Shouldnt the people who caused all this suffering be held responsible for their actions ? Germany and the rest of the Israel supporting 'West' should in fact accomodate ALL the jewish people who suffered and who dont have homes to go back to. So why does israel feel compelled to slaughter the Palestinians ? They had nothing to do with jewish suffering.
This entire 'script' about jewish victimhood morphing into oppression against the Palestinians makes me sick.
Do not lump all Jews into this category of extremists and militarists.
Jews have been on the frontlines of many progressive movements including civil rights for black folks.
There are Israeili extremists in power just like there are American extremists in power and it's too bad these two groups are running an insane foreign policy--headlong into a disasterous war with Iran.
The likud party no more represents the majority of jews, Israeli or otherwise, than the Neocons represent the majority of Americans.
I believe we can best support Israel by promoting peace with the Palestinians and Arab countries in the region and by understand Israel's need for security. Some say the Arabs don't want peace. I disagree, but if there's no common ground then separate and be prepared to compromise enough so all groups are satisfied enough to discontinue war. I'm naive I know, but how much more stupid is a war that even after 50 years still can't be resolved. That's stupid.
That said, these extremists--American, Israeili, and Arab may be the end of all of us if we don't start living by sane foreign policy.
dcbeltway: You should have been specific then. You used the present tense, not the past tense: "There are far more Arabs being killed than Jews in the Middle East last time I checked." That Lebanon operation was idiotic. I was mad as hell at that also. Unlike the US in Iraq, at least Israel pulled back quickly by comparison.
Israel lives under a constant state of seige. Why don't you find some numbers on the death toll that include all the Israelis who died from rockets and shelling coming from Lebanon for the previous several years before Israel made that stupid, but provoked, move?
A news article published by the LA Times, just before but probably after 9/11, reported that two prominent Jewish males were caught red handed with a huge amount of explosives by the FB as they were trying to blow up a mosque in Culver City, California. I was then interested to know what would happen to them, but I never heard anything about it. It went into a black hole, a complete news blackout.
Does anyone know what happened to them?
Dichterfreund: "The Israelis chose to live there; they can move if they really want to. But they don't want to. They get oodles of cash for not moving back to their home countries."
LOL - Not a student of 20th century history, are you? No one would take the Jewish refugees during WWII, even knowing about the concentration camps. The good old USA sent many back to their deaths. After WWII ended and the concentration camps were liberated, some were accepted as immigrants in the various countries, but the creation of Israel was a way to limit their collective obligations to take them in, by establishing a homeland in a location that the refugees would accept. The Jewish refugees who moved to Israel didn't have homes to go back to. Everything they had had been stolen from them, their communities had been decimated. They had nothing to go back to.
The USA, and all countries, still have immigration quotas, so Israelis cannot just move to another country any time they feel like it, any more than you can just pick up and move anywhere in the world that you want to.
That last sentence is completely off the wall. Israel is, and always has been, in a financial strait jacket, because it is constantly rebuilding what the suicide bombers, shells and rockets destroy. It does not have "oodles of money." That reminds me of the old ugly stereotypes of the "rich Jews," a way of dehumanizing an entire people so you feel good about your hate.
No Greengal I'm talking about the deaths of the Lebanese last summer in Isreal's bombing campaign: http://hrw.org/reports/2007/lebanon0907/
and of Palestinians in the occupied territories:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
More Arabs died then Jews statistically. Finally Iraq we all know was a war both for oil and the Israeli lobby so Israel has even more blood on its hands there also. Sick how you defend the indefensible with your AIPAC talking points.
I've labored in the Palestine solidarity movement in the past. But as an American, I find it hard to condemn Israel's occupation and terrorism against the Palestinians when my own country's troops are occupying and terrorizing the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, using the same or often cruder and more brutal methods, on a far larger scale, and with far less justification.
No, I don't think criticism of Israel is antismitism, and I do think the US should stop paying for financially, covering for politically, and enabling militarily Israel's crimes. But I'm not sure that demonizing Israel should be at the top of the peace movement's agenda at the moment. Not when we have left so much unsaid about our own nation's ongoing criminality.
TROOPS ARE TERRORISTS
VICTORY TO THE PEOPLES OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN!
cmichaelg49:
The madrasas and al-quaeda training camps function under the radar, because they train people to be suicide bombers and to build bomb to murder civilians to make a political point, and not in defense of their home or family.
Comparing these stupid 6 week, publicly advertised, "toy soldier," camps to the terrorist training camps is frankly idiotic.
If Hedges was such a fine journalist, why did he pick on one program that frankly strikes me as being as silly as the innocuous paintball groups who play war games, to compare to a terrorist program that is serious as hell, without also reviewing all of the peaceful, cultural and educational programs Israel also runs to try to build interest and support from people in other countries? And then look to see whether the groups that run the terrorist training camps also run a much much larger and comprehensive set of peaceful educational and cultural programs like Israel does. Hedges clearly has an axe to grind here.
For the critics - easy for you to carp about "terrorist training," etc. But you don't have to fight for your right to exist - this is a conflict between Arabs and Jews that's been going on for 60+ years. Ostrogoth(above): "Why are they now shelling and rocketing Israel from Gaza instead of working to return to a normal autonomous life with their own government?"
Israel has a right and a duty to defend its sovereignty. These young men are patriots - NOT toy soldiers.
"There are far more Arabs being killed than Jews in the Middle East last time I checked."
That's right, and it's US soldiers and mercernaries killing them, and they are killing each other - Sunnis vs. Shiites.
Ostrogoth: The Palestianians wanted territorial sovereignty. Israel has given it to them in Gaza. The first thing they did was destroy the apartments and dwellings, instead of relocating Palestinian families to live in them. Why is it Israel's obligation to give them all these services? Where are their arab "brothers and sisters"? Largely looking the other way -- "who me?" And how is the aid that is going to them being spent? On shells and rockets,instead of on food, water and clothing.
Are you some kind of trust fund kid or something, that you feel these people have absolutely no responsibility to lift a finger to help themselves?
"Those war planes and iron tanks?
Generals and men of higher ranks
say they're all instruments of peace,
all I can see is the mark of the beast.
They can't fool me, oh no way.
They're preparin' for a doomsday.
Brimstone and fire throughout the land.
Better prepare for this here Armageddeon.
I'm tellin' you brothers, it's gonna' be dread, dread.
I'm tellin' you sisters, it's gonna' be dreader than dread,
dreader than dread, I said."
(As sung by Leroy Sibbles in the early 80s. Not sure who wrote/composed it, though it might be him as well.)
peace (sigh)
Look at the bright side--you get to strut around in a uniform and be a big stud by kicking Palestinian butt.
This just in: due to the continued misuse of our military forces and the resulting recruitment shortfalls, Cheneybush have announced they are Federalizing the Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Bobcats, Tiger Cubs, Wolf Cubs, Bear Cubs and Webelos Scouts.
All members are to report to Camp Happy Feet, formerly known as the School for the Americas, by 0600 Christmas Day. Those with their archery, rifle and shooting, and shotgun Merit Badges will be considered officer candidates.
"Zionists are not Jews. Zionists are people who have traded in their Jewishness for the neo-platonism and manicheanism of mainstream Western culture. The Zionist world — like the American world — is divided into good and evil. Jew good, Arab evil."
The best encapsulation of the actual state of Israel that I've read. The "jewishness" of the Israeli state bears as much relation to Jewish identity over 1900 years as the people living in Indiana (or any city or state bearing a Native american-inspried name) do to the indigenous culture they replaced.
"How about 5 million Jews surrounded by a sea of over 300 million Arabs"
The Israelis chose to live there; they can move if they really want to. But they don't want to. They get oodles of cash for not moving back to their home countries.
Chris Hedges is among the finest reporters and writers working today. He consistently "gets it right" when too many others either dare not even broach the issue or quite simply "don't get it" period.
Among the most fanatical of Israeli extremists are American Jews who travel to Israel either before or, as Chris described, after their terrorist crimes against Americans on American soil.
http://tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=61
Only those blinded by ignorance, bias, or ideology would fail to see the dangers posed by the kind of camps Chris writes about in the article above.
"So, who is dehumanizing the Palestinians now in Gaza?
Why are they now shelling and rocketing Israel from Gaza instead of working to return to a normal autonomous life with their own government?"
greengal October 1st, 2007 4:37 pm
Greengal, Israel is dehumanizing the Palestinians now in Gaza, just like the good old times. Israel has cut off food and water supplies, electricity, medical care, tax revenues and jobs in Gaza. Israel terrorizes Gazans with missiles aimed at crowded markets and apartment houses, so-called "targeted assassinations." In short, Israel has turned Gaza into a huge, lethal, ghet