Is there a website dedicated solely to posting which bills are being voted on and how all elected officials vote? I believe that every time there is a vote on anything, the results should be printed in every cities newspaper. Or there should be ONE website where we can instantly view the results.

All the same party, slaves of big bussyness......

Well, well, well.

We are back to this. I hope people at least think about the following:

Until the US populace gets the courage to take to the streets and follow the example of Gandhi's non-violent marches and demonstrations nothing will change. The people have got to WANT the Constitution restored enough to ACT accordingly. If there is no such desire, there will will be no more US Constitution (except in name only).

Things will change only when the populace is alienated and hopeless and feeling ignored by the elected officials.

Then they may :
STAND UP - for what they beleive to be right.
SIT DOWN - in the nearest street to bring transportaion, retail, everything to a standstill.
FIGHT - I hope like Gandhi's Pathan friend Badshar Khan(Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan) (check him out)a Pashtun nonviolent Muslim
FIGHT - Even if it means sacrifice to themselves to totally repudiate the oligarchy
FIGHT - As if their lives depend on active resistance - which they do

When people realize that they cannot ignore the actions of the government and realize they themselves are the governmet, only then is change possible.

What a shame to let cowardice bring down such a noble experiment of human governance!!

Here are some comments by a man who stood by Gandhi - Badshah Khan, who led a 100,000 person army of non-violent Pashtuns from the Khyber pass region. He was a Pashtun (Afghan) political and spiritual leader known for his non-violent opposition to British Rule during the final years of the Empire on the Indian sub-continent. He was a lifelong pacifist and a devout Muslim. He was known as Badshah Khan (sometimes written as Bacha Khan), the `King of Chiefs', and `Frontier Gandhi'.

"To me nonviolence has come to represent a panacea for all the evils that surround my people. Therefore I am devoting all my energies toward the establishment of a society that would be based on its principles of truth and peace." –
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan

"Today's world is traveling in some strange direction. You see that the world is going toward destruction and violence. And the specialty of violence is to create hatred among people and to create fear. I am a believer in nonviolence and I say that no peace or tranquility will descend upon the people of the world until nonviolence is practiced, because nonviolence is love and it stirs courage in people." – Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan to an interviewer in 1985

His story is contained in 'Nonviolent Soldier of Islam: Badshah Khan, A Man To Match His Mountains', by Eknath Easwaran (Published by Nilgiri Press).

Also see NPR highlights:
http://www.npr.org/programs/musings/2003/jan/khan.html?sc=emaf

Turn off the PC a couple of times per week and go join a group of like minded folk -any group within reason.
Meet face to face and talk in real time with other people in a room not over the internet.
Reach for a set of common goals without too much debate.
Then go do it...
Anything else has become pointless...

No?

Turn off the dam PC and walk away from the keyboard and join a group, any group where one is forced to talk face to face with other people and reach a agree-to goal.

that would be a good start.

everything else is, er, well, has become pointless...

I've read through a lot of great posts here and I see how frustrated people here are with our two party system. I, too, would love to see additional alternatives but as long as money and access to big media decide who is to be elected, we have little hope.

Like building a house, we need to have a very solid foundation with which to push alternative candidates. Without election finance reform or control of big media, our cause is next to hopeless. Sure, we have free speech but money decides how loud the volume gets turned up. Frankly, the handful of men that control the mass media in this nation have drowned out the shouts of the majority that want this war to end and those responsible for these war crimes brought to justice.

I suggest that we take the money that we've been giving to Walmart, Target, Disney, etc and put it towards purchasing radio and television stations - not just advertisement - the stations themselves. Lets fight fire with fire. Lets outfox Fox.

For whatever reason, people tend to value what comes out of their television sets. Great. Lets give them something to watch.

That, my friends, is the only way we will ever have any power in this country.

Aren't there enough of us to form a third party? Everyone I speak to says that neither the Democratic nor Republican party represent them anymore. However, why is no one coming to the forefront? I have no problem with an unknown, as long as he/she has good ideas, and will truly represent the will of the American public.

Thanks, Mr. Duncan. Too bad we're so far down the line.

I don't believe a word the Dems in Congress are saying, including the two on that call and my own Rep., Peter DeFazio (at least two obvious lies in his recent Town Hall). Why are they so "cowardly" about the war and impeachment? Does anyone else believe their excuses?

Try this: What do you think will happen to the Republicans next year if Bush is in office and the war is still on?

That's what I think. AND IT'S WHAT THE DEMS THINK, TOO.

So: they're risking our democracy and sacrificing untold thousands of American and Iraqi lives for a landslide next year. Is that OK with you? Oh, yes: there's the money, too. They depend on the same corporate funders as the Republicans: even Murdoch is donating to Democrats like Hillary.

It's an effective strategy, except for two things. First: their egregious non-performance is giving them poll numbers about like Darth Cheney's. BOTH major parties will be in the toilet by Nov. 2008.

And Second: a free ride for the Dems is also a free ride for the Greens - or any alternative party. We won't have to worry about the Republicans winning much of anything. I'm not the only one that sees it: "third parties" and Independent candidates are coming out of the woodwork.

Finally, let me repeat Mr. Duncan: there is only one peace party in the US, and only one progressive party. Don't re-invent the wheel. We need all the help we can get. It's going to be a wild electoral year, and we need to get ready.

Please get involved in the Green party if you want to run antiwar candidates or run for office yourself. We already have a training system in place, local officeholders, fundraising plans, etc. Don't re-invent the wheel. Write to Brent McMillan (Political Director, http://gp.org/contact.shtml) if you want to run for office but do not know how to get started. Write to your local or national Co-ordinated Campaign Committee members for info on developing support. (http://gp.org/committees/campaign/contact.shtml)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331

When will people realize that people in both parties have sold their soul to the almighty dollar? We the People need to take back this country and stop messing around with the current government which is corrupt to the bone.

What I see happening is a demonstration of 'Genovese syndrome' on a massive scale. Everyone knows that a horrible, monstrous crime has been and is being committed... but no-one is willing to call the police. Bush and company have clearly committed treason, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. But NOT ONE member of your government is willing to stand up and indite Bush and Cheney for these crimes. The evidence is seen on TV every single night.

So. As I see it, your entire government are just as complicit with the commision of these crimes. And the American population is complicit as well, for they have not stood up as a people to end this murderous juntas reign of terror.

It really comes down to this: you're either for the war or against the war. Parse it any way you want, but Democratic Party leaders can't be so intimidated that they are afraid to take an honest stand against the war without coming across as defeatist.

Everything about Bush's illegal war runs counter to the principles on which our nation was founded. It is an abomination to our freedoms and liberties contained in the United States Constitution and a disgrace to our country. Bush has blatantly broken his oath of office and ruptured the trust of the American people.

Yet, that is exactly what the 2008 election will be all about. Republicans have good reason now to be cocky and confident that all they have to do is rally around Bush's war by claiming they want to protect Americans while Democrats want to raise the white flag of surrender. It's a great sound bite and one that voters will take with them to the polls in November 2008.

But, lots of things can and will happen between now and the next general election. One scenario will be highlighted once the British have completed their withdrawal from Basra in southern Iraq. Another will include the withdrawal of the 1,600 Australian troops if their current prime minister, John Howard, loses to his Labor opponent, Kevin Rudd, who is leading comfortably in the polls. Rudd's popularity is due almost entirely to opposition to Bush's Iraq War.

Right away, there go two Bush supporters with Gordon Brown replacing Bush's lap dog, Tony Blair, and Kevin Rudd replacing another Bush genuflector, John Howard. Those are the last of Bush's blind loyalists in Bush's crumbling 'coalition of the willing.'

The next likely scenario is the collapse of the al-Maliki government which will most likely be replaced with another pro-Bush leader but one who will also be seen by the Iraqi people as just another Islamic Shiite puppet to carry on Bush's campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing in an effort to displace the Sunni population.

Many of the (mostly Sunni) Iraqi citizens have fled the country to places like Syria. Most of the Sunni professionals like doctors, nurses and engineers, whether they were or were not Saddam Hussein supporters, fled Iraq over the last year when sectarian violence by the Shiite militias methodically wiped out their neighborhoods, aided, armed and supported by the Bush military assaults.

Now, it is not only Bush who must live with the consequences of this sectarian strife and wholesale slaughter of innocent Iraqi citizens, but the Republican congressmen and women who are up for reelection who can only hope between now and November that the surge of U.S. troops can stave off disaster in a country that has practically no running water, only a few hours of electricity per day, garbage piling up everywhere, along with dozens of bodies tossed into the streets and rivers, and a dysfunctional government controlled increasingly by brutal, Islamic Shiite militias who are merging much closer to ties with their Shiite brethren in Iran than they are with the Bush fantasy of bringing democracy to the entire Middle East.

"FUCK BOTH THE COWARDLY DEMOCRATS AND WAR PROFITEERING REPUBLICANS…A POCKS ON BOTH THEIR HOUSES"

It's "pox" not "pocks". I agree otherwise.

The only answer is for a unified progressive movement to direct all fire at Democrats to simultaneous move impeachment/removal of Cheney/Bush for the high crimes and misdemeanors they have committed and continue to commit. It is a trap to get caught up into the 67/60 debate. We all know the 67/60 debate is BS put forward by the Dem leadership to appear to be antiwar while continuing to vote against the troops to have them killed and maimed for the political aspirations of the cynical Democratic leadership. They vote the funding for the war. They can attach conditions, limit funding, change the amounts of money around, whatever, as they control both Hosues. If Bush vetos, he is vetoing money for the troops. It's really that simple.

Simultaneous impeachment/removal of Cheney/Bush, however, is a broader case. It calls into question the whole record of the Administration, Katrina, DOJ, DOE and the war. An uninterrupted, competently presented case, which articles of impeachment would require, would win the American people over. They aleady want an end to the war, a change in direction and Bush/Cheney to be over according to national polls. Simultaneous impeachment/removal would attain all 3 goals.

The rest of the 67 votes would come from the incumbent Republicans running for reelection in 2008 for the bulk of the 22 Republican Senate seats up in 2008. They would have to vote to remove Cheney/Bush or be removed by the voters of their states in 2008.

Just prior to the invasion of Iraq, the anti-war movement conducted the largest anti-war demonstrations in history throughout the world. The Administration did then, as it has since, simply stonewalled. They are not going to chagne direction based on shame or public opinion. They MUST BE FORCED to change and the only tool in our arsenal is simultaneous impeachment/removal.

All progressive forces must drop their particular institutional goals and put heat on the Democratic Party to move simulataneous impeachment/removal of Cheney/Bush. It's the only way to end the war and will lead to a Democratic Party revival similar to the one that occurred when FDR won. If they continue to lie to us about 67/60 and all their other prevarications and vote to oppose the troops and fund the war without restrictions, they will lose one House of Congress and the White House.

All I have to do is read through some of these comments to see what is wrong with this country in spades!!!! No one has the backbone to stand up for what they believe in including the people here. All Bush has to do is give them a extra scoop of ice cream on their cone (Petraeus) and they are willing to follow him anywhere again (the polls say a lot of American's have bought into it). They aren't bright enough to see it's more BS in the BS War. All right so the Democrat's aren't doing what you instantly want so you are going to vote Republican? You are going to vote more of the same fascist's in office who have almost destroyed democracy here in this country? That's really brilliant guys! You are going to totally destroy us because you are frustrated. Well I am frustrated too. But, I am more frustrated with the American people who flip flop in the wind rather than have any large amount of determination. The minute some Republican clone gets up and tells them the 'surge' is working they believe every last word of it. It's common knowledge these people don't have a clue what the truth really is let alone be able to tell it. Instead of using their damned brain to figure out it's likely 'fixed' information they believe it wholeheartedly. I can't really blame the Democrats for not having any spine. The American people don't have any spine! So I don't think they will grow one until we demand they grow one!

If Lynn Woolsey is considered THE spokesperson for the antiwar movement in congress, we're in serious trouble. Her comments on Monday's Lehrer News Hour were uninspiring and uninspired to say the least. More like bland, insipid, ineffectual and often irrelevant.

This US war on democracy as John Pilger, a British journalist calls it in his documentary feature film about it, which has been going on since the creation of the national security state under Harry Truman in 1947 as part of the Cold War "grand crusade" against Moscow, which isn't at all any war on terrorism, must be stopped. The power of money whether of AIPAC or other neo cons Jewish or Gentile must be forced into accountability whatever it takes including the formation of a new political party to kick some far right/loony right booty.

"All they have to do is play the stupid anthem, and Americans fall into a trance with their hands over their hearts"

Hi, davepepper, and thanks _ very well put.

It's important to understand the problem in order to solve it, and increasingly it seems the problem is exactly us.

I'm certainly no fan, but Ayn Rand seemed accurate in writing something to the effect of "they will use what is best about us to destroy us."

The Neoconservatives have shown true genius in exploiting this maxim. Your observation about the national anthem clearly illustrates this. They are using Americans' natural, commendable instincts toward loyalty, patriotism and respect _ to destroy us. And they ARE destroying us.

It probably means we all have to get far more hard-nosed and thick-skinned in fighting these people, and to call their bullshit when we see it, even when that means being tarred by those lying Neoconservative bastards as "anti-American," "terror enablers," or worst of all, showing insufficient "support" for "our troops." Too many people are believing the Neoconservative lies _ even the victims of such.

Thanks again, Dave.

come 2020, we will be having the same discussion.

Average people-turned-activists finally stopped the insane Vietnam War because:

[1]enough of the mass news media at that time reported honestly to millions of Americans the obscene carnage to US troops & Vietnamese civilians, and also fairly printed/broadcast in-depth arguments against the war, by dissenting officials and citizens alike.

[2] US troops, mostly draftees, were dying by the thousands each year for a (finally, publicly) morally-debunked war, which in turn made increasing tens-of-thousand's of average US citizens and grieving soldiers' relatives mad as hell at their government.

Keys of anti-war success, back then:

[1]Simply honest, balanced, nationwide press coverage of the carnage and of the opponents' arguments against it. This halfway objective coverage ultimately LEGITIMIZED anti-war arguments among America's bamboozled middle-class; sped-up inter-linkiing of grass roots protest orgs till protests became geographically widespread, huge in participant number, dominated press coverage, and thus made it easier for previous, cowardly anti-war congresspersons to cite 'all this turmoil' when finally 'finding courage' to start voting NO.

Today, Bush-neocons & The Corporate War Machine have enough allies in the corporate news media to intimidate (admittedly-timid) war opponents in congress - and to blunt/fragment war opposition organizing among citizens.

We don't like to admit it, but without enough truthful reporting by mass media across the country, polls alone -currently showing at best only general opposition to the Iraq war -- mean almost nothing.

Today, there is no consistent, nationwide, mass media polling that shows "most US voters want the US out of Iraq within an absolutely defined time period."

The present, government-friendly mass media purposely don't frame the questions this way.

Present mass media polls are designed to guarantee only the most vague of results. Vagaries that can be used by the War Machine for several PR purposes:

to hide the pretense that dissenting citizen opinion is being 'listened to,' and by such pretense, absorb it and de-fang it.

to prevent cowardly congressional war opponents from becoming more courageous by their citing of specific constituent demands; and thus.....

to allow the US War Machine and its puppet administration to cite "no public consensus" as a reason for the propagation of one-more-after- another Time Extension of the war.

Even a normally foolish citizenry should be able to see what Bush & The War Machine are playing-out. But then, the American Public isn't just any normally foolish citizenry. It is a public that is paralyzed by lack of honest mass information, and apparently clueless about that fact, as well.

Halting the US government's latest fascist war won't be nearly as simple as it was with Vietnam -- not to say that halting that war was at all easy.

At this point, there's no use in waxing sentimental about the "goodness of the Amercian public."

Enough Americans recognize what is happening -- the generalized polling responses show that.

But not enough Americans care to be heard or express themselves beyond the pollsters' stacked questions. And until this changes, none of the bad people who rule in the name of such a citizenry will have anything to fear from them.

Congress is now like a worm that is destroying the Constitution.
For years I have been drinking tap water, no credit card debts...these jerks make their billions with the credit racket, what you do not use, you lose, so use up things, don't just go for the gadget - we can live without so many things but not without solidarity, for humans it is our life blood.

These right-wing radicals would like to see us isolated, defencless, and begging for a job. The dems just want to replace them in the driver's seat.

Worth repeating:

"Congresspeople, activists, and all compassionate Americans must work together to change the deep assumption that the way to make America safe is to dominate and control the rest of the world. A major emphasis of the antiwar movement in the coming months must be an alternative framework for security, one in which the United States acts in solidarity with other nations and turns our attention from the unbridled pursuit of narrowly conceived national self-interest to acting on our concern for the well-being of all people in the world."

The task at hand is to destroy the reigning fascist doctrine and formulate/implement a NEW US FOREIGN POLICY, NOW, as part of a new sweeping progressive public policy. The rule of law is to be restored NOW through IMPEACHMENT. Next: universal healthcare, global warming treaty, shuttering K St. and eliminating payola politics. The burial of laissez-faire capitalism is next, and we're elevating the public will and the public interests, i.e. victory for the people in the class war. We're smarting up the dumbed down America - we're adding civics curricula to K-12. There's not a minute to lose - and the rabbi says we have no goals?

This is a grass roots movement. Grow your own food and vote your common sense. Tell Fascist Hillary all Americans out of Iraq and White House criminals impeached by election day 2008 or you're writing in Nader. Very simple.

A two cents comment from a nutty asshole.

When Bush asked for Congress to approve THE SURGE, it was to be a military operation, 'thru September' of 2007, designed to clean up the violence and terrorism in Baghdad. The 'surge', was specifically set up, so the new Iraqi government could finally get together in peace, quiet and safety, and agree on what to do to end all of the violence in Iraq, and start putting their country back in some sembelance of order.

THE SURGE has 'totally failed' in that set purpose. Not only has it failed, the Iraqi government will never, ever, accomplish anything, as long as the U.S. military is stationed anyplace in their country. The entire operation is a horrible joke, __ a disaster, ___ costing us four billion dollars a month. Actually that is very likely, a conservative monetary figure.

Certainly violence has decreased in Baghdad. When fighting a guerilla war, when the enemy attacks, the guerillas' lay low, or move to another area and cause as much trouble as possible. This madness could go on for thirty years or more, however long we are fighting a useless war in MESOPOTAMIA.

From the days of the Roman Empire to now, no foreign contry will control that population, every day more American troops will die and more will be seriously injured and more civilians will die. ___ For what?

The general came to DC today and read the White Houses' prepared statement. "The Surge is working and we need more time and maybe by next year we can withdraw some troops". Give Bush another fifty billion dollars for another three months, ___ half for the military and half for Halliburton and we will continue on as we have for the past four years.

And that is what will transpire, with almost everyone in Congress approving. Us 'nutty assholes' might as well learn to live with it. ___ Guess that was more like four cents worth, ___ sorry.

Derby35- I would add that we should also cancel third world debt.

sniffingratty-I'm goin' Kuchinich also.

The first thing that the anti-war organizations need to do is to immediately raise a large campaign fund Cindy Sheehan to run against Pelosi in the coming primary election. The risk of loosing in primary elections will scare Democrats more that the possibility of loosing to a Republican opponent. We need to demonstrate that we have the power to remove them from office.

In General BetrayUs's statements so far one can clearly see the politics of smoke and mirror. Obviously, the General is assuming that his audience is stupid. This is how they play their games:

BushCo go against the wishes of the people and instead of ending the war, they surge by sending 30,000 additional troops. Then the General comes back after several months and proposes a gradual pull back of 25,000 troops and calls it troop withdrawal. Even fools can see that the net result is still a surge.

With the system having gone so corrupt, there is only one thing people can do: Throw out all the rascals from the Congress. Please do not vote for any career politician, and that includes both Democrats and Republicans. But first make sure that the voting machines leave a paper trail, and call in independent and UN election monitors. YOU REALLY NEED THEM.

So now Michael Lerner is an anti-war leader ?! Incredulous. I do not doubt Lerner is against the war but his views about Israel stymies his credibility as an anti-war 'leader'. He tiptoes around the Israeli-Palestine issue. Israel is the equivalent of the U.S. in the middle-east, but he saves his anti-war rhetoric for the U.S. alone.
At the height of the anti-war demosnstrations here in the bay area Lerner chose to highlight his differences with A.N.S.W.E.R. rather than focus on the anti-war movement which needless to say left a bitter taste amongst a lot of us on the friggin ground !

So, progressives lack a cohesive, or comprehensive world view. This makes progressives impotent. That's an interesting explanation for the lack of initiative in the legislative representation in Congress. I reckon it's pure self-interest in trying to keep a topic (the war in Iraq) that some Dems might think will help their election chances if it remains an issue in the 2008 election. Well, I think their calculations will backfire. I'm a devoted voter. My votes in 2004 and 2000 were neutralized by the Supreme Court and by rampant voter fraud in key states (Ohio and Fla). At this point, if Dennis Kucinich isn't the Dem candidate, I may well not vote for the party's choice. I won't vote for a Republican, but I will not waste a vote on a Democratic candidate who will betray the mandate to end the war. None of the candidates, save Kucinich, is promising to get US out of Iraq. Between making war in foreign lands and making war on US citizens by trashing the Constitution and denying universal health care to its citizens, there is not much that I can see that is worth the futility of exercising my "right" to vote. I refuse to participate in a meaningless charade that allows those in power to pretend that the "people have spoken."

If the American public ever woke up, got informed, and got mad, the ruling plutocracy would unleash another 9/11-event. (I'm sure there are plenty of potential plans in the works.) And the public would respond by pleading for the rulers to implement martial law and a police state to "protect" their way of life. It would never occur to most Americans that the first 9/11 happened, in part, because the Bush administration was asleep at the wheel, focusing on how to rape and pillage the economy, and not on the glaring and blaring threats that the intelligence community knew were imminent. They failed us once. And, when they fail again, we will not hold them to account.

How have we, as a nation, followed these incompetents, who didn't recognize the looming threat of terrorism, into a war of choice, based on a network of lies? And why have we not impeached them? Why haven't we demanded accountability?

In a phrase: "The wind blows away our words", by Doris Lessing, published by Picador in 1987.

You might like to read it, to remember a different time ...

Im voting for DENNIS KUCINICH! im also preparing for the revolution. id rather elect kucinich, but in case that fails it may come to revolution. why not work along both lines? if the whole anti war movement got behind dennis victory would be emminent. 100,000s of thousands marching not just for some vauge idea of peace, but for the speecific purpose of getting him elected. all thoes peace bumper stickers and lawn sighns, letter to the editor, sit ins, political theorising, bloging, flyering, newsletters, ect.. imagine it all having a specific purpose, electing dennis. we can win. we have to fight on all fronts, so yeah civil disobediance and grassroot revolution and independent society building, but at the same time lets get dennis elected.

I have a clear view for withdrawing all troops worldwide, like everywhere. I have a picture alright. I see Iraq rebuilding and handling their own affairs. I see the anti-Americanism subsiding. I see us using our military to protect our borders rather than the elites' economic and strategic (I just love that word, 'strategic'. As if world affairs is a big video game) interests. I see us taking care of our own problems, something which military adventures and imperialist rampages greatly diverts us from. And then from that point forward bombing the hell out of everyone with butter, bread, and scientific advancements. And then I see us trying to merely set an example instead of forcing everyone to be like us.

It's not that hard really. You people spitting on Americans are no more intelligent, righteous, courageous, or better than anyone else. The people are getting it now. They aren't blinded by patriotism as some like to believe. If anything they are cynical as well as tired, distracted, disengaged, and disenfranchised. And why shouldn't they be cynical? The Dems, the supposed shining knights of Progress, are either complicit or timid or just have their heads buried under a pillow.

Withdrawal
Atonement
Restitution

Then we can move on.

Organize, organize, organize! How often is this repeated? But we are divided and almost conquered.

Green Party, Progressive Democrats, Socialist Party, Independent, even voting Republican is suggested here, not to mention the plethora of candidates and wishful candidates. A world of diversity that serves to keep us divided.

Why not keep our diversity while uniting under one powerful organization, a corporation of We the People. One where We the People have equal non-transferable shares and accrue dividends from the lease of our trillions of dollars worth of public lands, oil, minerals, water, fisheries, airwaves, etc.? Where We the People's corporation controls our resources and business partnerships, not the thieving, polluting, killing corporations that our government represents?

Dump Bush said:

"In order for Pelosi or anyone else to make changes they will need a considerable larger majority - one that can override a Bush veto and one that will be able to break a deadlock and override a Bush veto in the Senate - 67 votes, not 50 or 51.

For the Democrat leadership to push votes that will result in defeat is not in our interests nor the interests of the party. It might make them unelectable next year and if we ever want to get out from under the yoke of the Republicans we need a real majority - like explained above."

=====

This is just excuse-making and follows the Democrat's line of saying "poor me".

America elected them to cast their votes AGAINST the Bush agenda, no matter what, not to vote against it only if they think they can "win" or override a veto, to be a democratic body, if nothing else.

Since 2004, on every single important vote -- FISA, the Patriot Act, and the war -- Democrats have voted WITH Republicans to support Bush's agenda. That isn't the way to get my vote next time nor that of millions of other Democrats who have been betrayed by the spineless ones.

I am in Minnesota and so far our new Senator Amy Klobachur misspelled for sure has been saying the right stuff but has backed up a bit. Is there a better watch dog than I am to see if she is sticking to her word ? The other Sen was a Dem now a rep and a real jerk ...Norm Coleman who might be replaced by Al Franken...yup you know him

"All they have to do is play the stupid anthem, and Americans fall into a trance with their hands over their hearts….the perfect sheeple to be led by the fascists. With people like that, do you think anything will ever change??"

davepepper - so sad but true....

unfortunately this patriotic lifestyle is quickly working its way into what is left of our own country up here. The obedient "war games" Canada is taking part in in Afghanistan are playing into the same sort of mindless "support our troops" mentality never seen here before. Discussion as to what the causes and effects of war are being replaced with talk of flag, and traitor, and enemy, and fortress, etc.....

The American sheeple! I love it. So true.

Who do we want in control of the government?
The Democratic Party, no matter what you think of them, or the successors to the Bush regime? Whether you like it or not, that's the choice!

The Democrat "majority" is just ONE vote, and that's Lieberman who votes with the Republicans on the war issue.

In order for Pelosi or anyone else to make changes they will need a considerable larger majority - one that can override a Bush veto and one that will be able to break a deadlock and override a Bush veto in the Senate - 67 votes, not 50 or 51.

For the Democrat leadership to push votes that will result in defeat is not in our interests nor the interests of the party. It might make them unelectable next year and if we ever want to get out from under the yoke of the Republicans we need a real majority - like explained above.

Americans are too afraid of their own shadow to do anything. Why don't you revolt like the Indians did when they kicked out the British empire?? Why don't you stop paying taxes, stop going to work for a week, shut the damn country down and see how they react? That would kill them. Americans are pussywhipped by their government. They always have been. All they have to do is play the stupid anthem, and Americans fall into a trance with their hands over their hearts....the perfect sheeple to be led by the fascists. With people like that, do you think anything will ever change??

What ever happened to integrity? Remember Paul Wellstone? He often went out on a progressive limb, and the people from his state re-elected him anyway. Maybe the sorry group of politicians DO represent us. Like the poster suggests above, we perhaps have become craven and sheep-like and have thus begotten the representation that reflects what we are. Is civil disobedience called for? That is for each one to decide. If you have been on the unemployment line of late, you know it's much harder to land a job, and the one you do land is likely to pay significantly less than it used to. Yet, taxes remain high and the war chest full. Most of the people working are maxed to the hilt on credit. So what is it we're really afraid of losing, our respectability? Is that what our politicians are afraid of too? Think about it.

I beleive that Institutoins are MORE dangerous than standing armies...

If the american people ever allow banks to control the issue of currency
The banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of there prosperity until their children wake up homeless on the continent there fathers conquered.

Thomas Jefferson

Didn't he tell us to replace the govornment once it became unresponcive?

There is no anti war movement. And the US is a one party state, with two wings....a right wing, and an extreme right wing. The US has gotten away with starting two wars, killing over a million innocent people and displacing millions more. It is about to start a third war in Iran. Not a peep from the so-called anti war movement. Here is a country that puts the Third Reich to shame when it comes to propaganda, warmongering and mass murder, and no one has the balles to say anything. You Americans are complicit in your government's crimes against humanity, by failing to speak out, and throw out your criminals in power. You are paralyzed by fear. Speak out against your criminal politicians, and get arrested if you have to., to make your point. What happened to the protests of the 60s, that helped stop the American murder campaign against Vietnam? Your country is the biggest threat to world peace ever, and you remain silent. Maybe a good depression will get you doing something about the crimes of your country around the world. It's right around the corner, and that will put an end to the bogus "American Dream" . Then maybe you will stand for what is important, instead of becoming obese watching trash on your big screen TV that will never be paid off. If you won't stop war, the depression will.

I'd vote for Cynthia McKinney, Dennis Kucinich, or Ralph Nader. Otherwise, none of the Democrats represent me. I had considered John Edwards, but didn't he make a statement about bombing Iran just like Hillary and oBomba did?

Said it before and will say it again.............Persuade Ron Paul and Kucinich that the only way they can win in to run together on an independent ticket. Then, get Nader to run as a fourth party. The worthless repugs and dimwits would not have a platform on which to stand.
Anyone have connections with these folks? Lawd, please do not allow Hillary to be our next president. Personally, without at least one third party candidate, I have NO REASON to vote. I would bet that Nader would be open to this arrangemen.

What kind of childish idiots refuse to do the right thing because they suppose their enemies are going to call them names.

Are they really that weak minded?

Vote independently for WHOM? If an organized effort by known leaders of our movement was made to form an alternative party with a platform of peace, ecology, and return to legal democratic norms and public accountability and that party ran respected candidates like Kucinich, Medea Benjamin, or Bill Moyers we would have something to rally behind and build an energetic movement with and WE WOULD WIN!

Is anybody listening?

Voting for Dims is a proven waste of time.

"These members are very much afraid that if they get too far out front, they're going to lose their seat, and they're being advised to not take risks so we can sustain this majority"

THEY ARE NOT AS FAR OUT IN FRONT AS THE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN DYING ON THE FRONT LINES EVERY DAY FOR AN IMMORAL WAR BASED ON LIES AND OIL PROFITS

FUCK BOTH THE COWARDLY DEMOCRATS AND WAR PROFITEERING REPUBLICANS...A POCKS ON BOTH THEIR HOUSES

VOTE INDEPENDANT 2008

RoundAbout
It's going to the United Nations Security Council and I'll hand deliver it myself if I'm not "disappeard" before I get a chance.
Please read it.

I read it.

You won't disappear and "The Fascists and Capitalists" working together to enslave us (can these 2 ideologies actually function together?) don't have much of a chance either. If the whole world is enslaved not much of a chance to make a profit. ;) You have Noble Purpose but the wrong plan. I wish I could give you one. Good luck all the same.

Everyone who voted for a Democratic Congress has been viciously betrayed by Democratic Party leaders - I am bitterly disappointed in all of them; I've been taken for a ride and I know it. Madame Speaker will not do what she promised; Harry Reid is nothing but hot air; this Congress is a rubber stamp for the certifiable moron running our country and I am completely and utterly disgusted with both parties. Bush lied, Emanuel lied, Pelosi lied and is continuing to do so, and we, the people, have no representation.

The Dems know what many of the anti-war folks seem to forget - while the majority of people in this country ARE opposed to the war, they are also the ones that are still susceptible to the well organized, well-financed GOP propaganda efforts of framing things to whatever purposes they want. If this were not so, there would not still be a Sen. Liebermann running in Ct. and a razor's edge "majority" in the Senate. If the anti-war folks really had the majority of the people behind them, I know things would be different. But this is the "majority" that don't vote and don't really care. If you want to make a difference, make your difference there, work to get out the vote and get rid of the Repuke Party's stranglehold on power. Then train your guns on the Dems. Right now, all we are doing is playing into the hands of the Repukes and ensuring that they keep things as they are. We all know what this is about - to save Bush's ass, so that with the occupation firmly in the next Administration's lap, whatever the horrible outcome, it will be the other guy's fault. It's about his "legacy".

President Bush and his vice President to want to fuel pain and suffering for the Iraqi people. They want the war to go on for ever so they can make profits for ever, pure and simple. Anyway they can create havoc in Iraq or any other place they will. They don't want the army to succeed, they want it to be broken down so they can replace it with a private "Blackwater" Army. They want everything in our government and in the Iraqi country broken down so they can privatize everything.

The risk the Dems are taking is defying their pro-Israeli funders and losing their seat in Congress. Pro-Israeli groups, which include Jews and non-Jews alike, give 60 percent of the funding to the Dems. These groups have as of late and often been aligned with far right wing policies of the Likud.

So if you wonder why the Dems are spineless, it's because they've got it on lease from AIPAC, JINSA, the Christian Zionists, etc.

I encourage people to read the Mearshimer-Walt paper
and the book, The Israel Lobby, which just came out.

I think it is only by facing this issue of the lobby, and its control over the Congress and over US foreign policy in the Middle East, that we can start to get anywhere in the struggle to end this seemingly permanent and horrifying waste of the planet's and human resources.

Too many of our fellow readers here think that a "majority" - whether in Congress or the polls - constitutes political power.

It doesn't. It never has.

Our whole goverment of checks and balances is designed to protect privilege and resist change... not to prevent change, but to slow it down so Wall Street can stay one step ahead of the rest of us.

The Republicans are in the minority in Congress, but they have big money and big media on their side. What do the Democrats have? A slim majority in Congress plus a lot of whiners and backseat drivers at CommonDreams.

The defenders of power are crafty and ruthless. They are not "good sports" who will cave in because they're unpopular in the polls. The 2006 election victories did not "take the castle"... it only surrounded the bastions of power and dug in for a long siege.

Politics is a chess game, not an arm-wrestling match.

Too few of us in the anti-war crowd have the stomach for a long fight... too many have already given up and retreated to safe, easy positions like, "Pelosi betrayed us", "both parties are the same", "only a third party can change things".

The Dems in Congress cannot stop the war without us, and we cannot stop it without them.

So quit bellyaching and lend them a hand. Take up the fight for popular opinion in your home district. Put up signs, gather signatures, call a radio station, write to the newspaper... make a difference in ways that your congressrep will notice.

Want to do something really constructive? come up with a word for the pro-war Republicans that's as sharp and memorable as "Defeatocrat".

In arena of public opinion, ridicule is more powerful that reason.

Is there some problem with "so-called anti-war "leaders" " calling for demonstrations and forgetting hillary and obama and the rest of the pseudo-republicans?

RISK PEACE

". . . We cobbled together a majority by winning in a lot of seats that tend to be conservative: in the South, in the rural Midwest, and so on. These members are very much afraid that if they get too far out front, they're going to lose their seat, and they're being advised to not take risks so we can sustain this majority."

". . . she's got to represent the Democratic Party, and there's a whole lot of Democrats that are far more reluctant to challenge this president and to make waves."

TOTALLY NOT TRUE

The spiritual leaders, like Lerner, the progressives like Kucinich and the historical scholars like Chomsky need to put together a blueprint for peace and present it to each and every candidate for office, local, state and federal, for endorsement. If they endorse it, they get our vote, if they don't we will know who is against us and will therefore campaign against the fool. Peace must come first, and the rest of the issues will follow. The blue print must be the actual way we can withdraw our troops immediately and what we call the other nations to do to maintain world peace and justice. We must illuminate the way to peace. The administration has met in secret, they have produced in the darkness, the plans for war and world domination. It was born of fear and greed. What the good people of this country must do is work in the light. The "Call," is an excellent start, no matter how the naysayers will strive to miscontrue it. It's power is in the open heartedness with which it was conceived and acted on and it's truth. Stand by it and continue -- this is the way.

"In case somebody isin`t aware yet, I was watching C-SPAN today with our democratic rep Ike Skeleton running the committee for the Iraq report, when some CODE PINK folks raised their voices in protest and he threw them out. I guess they forgot to turn their mikes off because Skelton says to Duncan Hunter they piss me off the assholes, what nice folks we got representing us, com-on folks everybody call the ASSHOLE representive Skelton"

I heard it, didn't see it.

But David Obey gave the same treatment to a woman who'd lost her son -- I think it was last Spring, maybe even before the election.

"People in the U.S. are opposed to the war, but they feel that they need to have a picture of what the world would look like if the U.S. were to withdraw from the world by leaving Iraq," Lerner said."

In other words, they buy the propaganda that the occupation of Iraq is "key" to something other than delivering oil into the hands of Exxon & BP & company -- to 'defending Israel' or a 'global war on you-know-what'.

If Congressional dems continue to refuse to take immediate steps to hold Bush, Cheney, and others in the administration accountable. they can forget winning the 2008 election. Many will not vote because they refuse to accept the lesser of two evils; many others will not vote because they feel Dems have abandoned them as well as having, by their inaction, trashed the U. S. Constitution. So what's it to be Congressional Democrats: A Democracy or a Dictatorship?

I am 63 and have always been a Democrat. But,this current crop of "elected" officials makes me sick. They have no backbone. They are no better than the Bush henchmen. Maybe we who are opposed to the immoral, unethical and criminal behavior of the US government need to bring it to its knees. Maybe en mass we should refuse to pay taxes. Maybe we need to take to the streets of Washington and block access the Senate and House offices. America has murdered nearly 750,000 Iraq citizens. It tortures. It holds people without recourse to a legal system. It spies on Americans. It spends nearly $700 billion a year on military and yet we have no health care for all, no efficient mass transportation, 20% of American children live in poverty, the air and water are filthy. Are we a nation of sheep? Are we now led by a totally corrupt federal government consisting of people in both parties that are more interested in themselves and the benefits they receive than in how to serve Americans? I am ashamed to be an American. I have never seen politics so shameful.

What would Iraq "look like" if the US military left?

Well, what does it look like now? Think about it.

There are insurgent conflicts between tribes, religions, and the US-backed government and these groups. A few foreign nationals have joined in the conflicts. These "conflicts" are not occurring country-wide but fluidly exist in regions where there is little to no US presence. When US troops "calm" a region, it's quiet as long as they're there. When they move on, the violent conflicts start again. It's kind of like trying to calm roiling waters.

If US troops left, why wouldn't all of Iraq look like the regions where there's no US presence anyway? Will the conflicts continue? Yes!

But it's up to the Iraqis to deal with those conflicts. One of the reasons it isn't a serious effort is because the US is hated in Iraq and those Iraqi forces under the command of the US are also hated as their representatives. They're operating with US interests at the heart of the command.

I, for one, really believe the violence will decrease if US military and contractor forces leave, though I don't think peace will reign without a Saddam-like strongman -- or strongmen, if the country is breaking into three pieces.

As for what the surrounding countries might do about Iraq, that's anybody's guess. Iran might gain a strong hold on portions of Iraq, but I think that would happen anyway, no matter when the US leaves. The middle east will NEVER love America but will certainly appreciate support from its strong neighbors.

This is why Bush won't leave, and it's predicated on the energy situation in the world. It's really past time for the US to develop new energy technologies, and there are some interesting ones being publicized lately. Look up "jatropha fuel" or see this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/world/africa/09biofuel.html?_r=1&oref=login

"...a plant called jatropha is being hailed by scientists and policy makers as a potentially ideal source of biofuel, a plant that can grow in marginal soil or beside food crops, that does not require a lot of fertilizer and yields many times as much biofuel per acre planted as corn and many other potential biofuels."

Anyway, the problem really seems to be Congress and its refusal to bring the concerns of Americans who voted for them to the table.

Time for them to go...

ESPECIALLY WANTED TO REPEAT THIS PART OF THE PHONE CALL . . . .

QUOTE:
Benjamin: Well, we're trying Lynn. We can't even get Nancy Pelosi to meet with her own peace constituents. I would like to know: doesn't she have the power to put a bill on the floor and not put it on? Can't she decide that we're not going to keep funding this war?

Well, it has to be a funding bill, and the supplemental is our next chance. It's going to be soon.

Lerner: Pelosi could simply not bring up any funding bill for the military. She could not bring it up, and then say: "We're only going to bring it up if you agree to end the war."

Woolsey: That we're only going to be spending our money to bring the troops home. And that's what we're going to be pushing for, I promise.

Lerner: Instead of bringing it to the floor where she knows she'll lose the vote, she'll refuse to bring it to the floor.

Woolsey: Well, she could do that, but it's going to cost money to bring the troops home. The Democrats are more afraid of being labeled as abandoning, and if we fund the safe, orderly redeployment, then indeed folks will start phrasing it that way, including our own leadership, and then we can abandon the mindset that we're not abandoning our own troops. The Republicans will say it, but Democrats have to quit saying it.

Benjamin: Lynn, if there's no change of heart from the leadership of the Democratic Party now, is the most likely scenario that Bush will get his now 200 Billion dollars for the war with no timeline?

Woolsey: Well, it could be, yeah.

Benjamin: Is that the most likely scenario now?

Woolsey: Well, we had fifty-some members sign a letter saying no more money except to bring the troops home.

Carpenter: We're at 70 now, Lynn.

Woolsey: Ok, 70 now, thank you.

Benjamin: But if Pelosi doesn't take that one seriously, things will play out the way it did with the last 95 billion.

Woolsey: It could. Of course, that's my greatest fear.

Lerner: The only thing she could do is to not bring that bill to the floor. She knows that on the floor, she would lose the vote.

Woolsey: Yeah, she might not. She could put the same amount of energy into the Blue Dogs as she puts into the progressives to be key members. UNQUOTE

And I do want to add that as hurtful and harmful as the release of this message is . . . . I think it is also hugely helpful and instructional.

We have this defense of Pelosi by Woolsey . . . but look at what her "greatest fear" is . . . that Pelosi will actually bring Bush's new $200 billion funding to the floor and let it pass. Because, Pelosi knows that if it comes to the floor it will pass.

There's a lot of crap going on here with Pelosi/Conyers and Reed playing games with Democratic anti-war liberals.
Again -- there are more of us than them.
But, it is money running the party; we have to recognize that and find ways to have numbers undermine that financial power.

Will this wake up Democrats -- ?????

The real problem is this. The American (2) party political system has become so hopelessly corrupt that it no longer represents the people. American politics has morphed into a career path rather than a civic duty. American politicians
are engaged in increasingly permanent and expensive election campaigns. Those campaigns are funded by corporate interests and the State of Israel which are who the American politician now answers to. Real democracy died 50 years ago in America, but it wasn't until the Bush regime seized power that we had a wake and got a good look at the corpse. Wars are always about profit, they exist for no other reason, this one is no different. Those who are prosecuting this war will continue it as long as it remains profitable. When the cost or risk out weighs the gain it will stop. All those foolish enough to believe the lies and participate or unfortunate enough to have no choice are considered expendable by the prosecutors. The only way to regain any sembalence of real representative government is
to overthrow the (2) party system and adopt a parlimentary
system. When there are literally dozens of parties whose members are directly elected and then themselves elect a
leader can you have real representation. Because in this system with every election a coalition government must
usually be formed. No one party or group ever has complete control. If you don't like one parties leaning then reduce
their number of seats and marginalize the behaviour you don't like. Until this fundamental change is made the wars and the lack of real representation will continue.

Fred..

The Network of Spiritual Progressives is issuing this response to the Politico.com story:

In its focus on partisan politics, The Politico has missed the two really significant stories around the call: 1) that the call points toward a whole new way of thinking about how to end the war, and 2) that the anti-war movement is strategizing across conventional dividing lines by including Congresspeople, coalitions, grassroots organizations, and the religious left in the same conversation. Represented on the strategy conference call were Congresspeople, the grassroots political organization Progressive Democrats of America, several organizations from the religious left, United for Peace and Justice (the largest antiwar coalition in the country), and several grassroots peace and antiwar organizations.

We heard in this conference call that Congresspeople want to do the right thing about Iraq but simply don't have the votes to do so. In order to get those votes, this country needs a deeper change in how we think about national security. Congresspeople, activists, and all compassionate Americans must work together to change the deep assumption that the way to make America safe is to dominate and control the rest of the world. A major emphasis of the antiwar movement in the coming months must be an alternative framework for security, one in which the United States acts in solidarity with other nations and turns our attention from the unbridled pursuit of narrowly conceived national self-interest to acting on our concern for the well-being of all people in the world. The Network of Spiritual Progressives is calling for a Strategy of Generosity in Homeland Security to counter our current Strategy of Domination.

In Iraq, that means recognizing with humility that an American presence in the region is fueling violence and suffering for the Iraqi people as well as our soldiers, declaring that therefore we are withdrawing to alleviate that suffering and the suffering of our own soldiers, then helping to fund and constitute an international force to oversee a plebiscite about the future of the country, funding rebuilding and reparations, and issuing an apology to the Iraqi people.

We have deep respect and gratitude for the huge number of people active with us in the anti-war and peace movements in this country even as we recognize that the approach we've been using is insufficient to the task. The Network of Spiritual Progressives is committed to doing more education of the American people around the need for a new role for the United States in the world, one in which we act out of generosity rather than domination. Our foreign policy should reflect the compassionate nature of the American people. We need to articulate this new framework in Congress, in debates around the 2008 elections, in the media, in our grassroots actions, in conversations with friends and family, and in every other sphere of public life.

Our focus as an organization and as a movement is not on helping any one political party win elections but on bringing about a radically healed and transformed world that operates according to love, caring, kindness, generosity and ecological sensitivity, and that views every human being, no matter where he or she lives, as an embodiment of the sacred. On that project, we must think long-term. Paradoxically, candidates who focus on this long-term goal and talk about it openly are likely to win elections even in the short term because they address an unspoken longing in the American people for a more compassionate and just society.

Nichola Torbett
Director of National Programs
Network of Spiritual Progressives
info@spiritualprogressives.org

Why do politicians let the MSM opinionmakers have the cheapest and most exclusive monopoly access to our public airwaves?

"they need to have a picture of what the world would look like if the U.S. were to withdraw from the world by leaving Iraq …"

What an US-centric perspective!

When driving gangsters from a bad neighborhood, the only "picture" that is needed is a neighborhood without gangsters, right?

So, in defeating US international arrogance and imperialism, the only picture that is needed is one of a world in which the US minds it's own business and stops brutalizing and murdering others. What other "picture" do they need???

Talk will not work! The halls of congress have been infiltrated with people who could careless about the American Constitution. America is rotting from within. Our enemies are not on the battle field, they are right hear and we elected them. What we need is a good old fashion revolution! Just let me know when and where. I'll be there.

I wonder if the progressive Democrats can ever retake the party? Seems unlikely looking at their national leadership.

And this is also why so many people are hoping former-Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney really does take the plunge and run for president. Like this:

Cynthia McKinney for President 2008

BugsBBunny III September 10th, 2007 3:27 pm
"If we focus on communicating to these politicians"

These politicians don't give a rat's ass who we vote for, what we think, say or do.
They've got their eye on the prize, U.S. corporate/fascist hegemony, and they won't see anything else.

Its always nice when they leave a mic on or just lose control and they tell us what they really think of us ....

Rep Obey (chair of the House Apropriations committee).... calls us "idiot liberals".

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi ... calls us "nuts".

Rep Skelton (chair of the House Armed Services Committee) ... calls us "assholes".

Don't bother telling them what you think. They don't care. If you enjoy pissing them off, which isn't a bad thing, you can try telling them as hearing what the people they are supposed to be representing think does seem to piss them off to a ridiculous extreme. But the one thing that is abundantly clear is that they don't care what we think.

What we need to do is to make sure Pelosi, Obey, Skelton and many, many others are removed from the Congress in 2008. Go Cindy Sheehan. She can take Pelosi out. Now who's running against these other two jerks?

These people have made it clear that they don't support our issues and that just our presence and our voice disgusts them. So why would we support them in the next election? And face it, the above list is the Speaker of the House and two of the most powerful committee chairs. So isn't it obvious that the entire leadership of the Democrats in the House feels the same about us? So why on earth should we support any Democrats? All we'd be doing is putting these same jerks back in power when its plain they will do the opposite of what we want.

The problem is that these 'leaders' of the anti-war movement made a large and fundamental mistake in 2004 and 2006. The mistake they made was in letting the antiwar movement become attached to the Democratic party. Instead of mounting their a concerted effort in support of their own cause, they instead supported the Democratic Party and its candidates. In doing so they ended up supporting candidates who did not share their aims of ending the war. And thus by doing so they destroyed, hopefully temporarily, and political power the anti-war movement might have.

Of course, their mistake was in believing the bs from the Democrats where the Democrats pretend to be in opposition to the Bush administration and the Republicans. In reality, the leaders of the Democratic Party were playing the leaders of the anti-war movement for fools. On one hand, they were getting the leaders of the anti-war movement to supply a lot of volunteers and energy and votes into Democratic campaigns. At the same time, the leaders of the Democratic party were obtaining bigger contributions from groups like the defense industry and the oil industry and obviously promising that having the Democrats can power in Congress would not cause any change in direction of US policy.

As always with the Democrats, what the big contributors want is what really happened. The leaders of the anti-war movement, and the citizens who support the goals of this movement and who voluteered to go door-to-door for the Democrats were the people who were played for complete fools.

So, now these 'leaders' are saying they are "stymied" and "frustrated"? Well Duh! When you pledge the support of an anti-war movement to a pro-war party and pro-war candidates, what did they expect to have happen?

One of the best things we can do as a movement is to disown these so-called leaders. How did they become leaders in the first place? I don't remember an election. But if these fools want to have anyone follow them or listen to them at all, certainly the one thing they must do quickly and decisively is to sever all ties between the anti-war movement and the Democratic party.

The antiwar movement needs to only support candidates that support the end of funding for this war. A defunding plan can include money for getting the troops home of course. But defunding any monies beyond that is the only action that can be taken that will end this war. And the antiwar movement can not and must not support any campaign or party that doesn't fully back this measure.

How about approaching individuals who oppose the war, such as Maurice Hinchey and Dennis Kucinich in the Democratic Party and Ron Paul on the Republican party. They have had the courage to oppose Bush on day one.

The Democrats are simply the "getaway driver" / "lookout man" for the great Repulican heist of Iraq's natural resources. Plain & Simple.

If we focus on communicating to these politicians that we are sick of this debacle now not a year or two or five years form now but NOW... and will hold the incumbants to account in 08 then politicians might finally start do something.

Right now they figure they will win elections by going along with the old guard in Congress who enabled Bush. If we start now about making them fear a upwell of american feeling that we want new people and incumbancy may be a negative for greater and greater numbers of voters as the elections approach, then politicians will act when they see it as self interest.

We don't have anyway to make them pay except by not reelecting them. They are still too confident that they will get reelected just as things stand. If we all start clamoring for a kick the incumbant out movement, they will start seeking to please the voters and move on this war because we made them do it.

One thing we can do is to take a lesson from the Vietnam War independent war crimes tribunal in the 60's. If Congress, our representatives, refuse to impeach Bush and Cheney then we the people should set up a tribunal to present the evidence for impeachment and have a vote, either a direct one by internet or a vote of representatives we would send to the tribunal. You say that wouldn't be constitutional? Well, these are times that call for extraordinary tactics. How important is it to you that Bush and Cheney not be allowed to finish their terms in the normal way? Do you want to see them leave office as though they had committed no impeachable crimes or do you want to see them held accountable? It is unconscionable that Congress refuses to impeach, but we know that Congress is a flawed and money-corrupted institution. Its time to go around Congress which really only represents special interests not ordinary Americans.

Petraeus is now in D.C. peddling "Plan For Victory", version 86. Representative Lantos said he's not buying it. Bush and Petraeus don't want you to buy it. They're shoving it down our collective maw and you can swallow it or choke to death on it. It's all the same to them.

If the "moderate" Democrats are afraid of losing elections, then maybe each one of them ought to face a primary challenge from a peace candidate. Nothing will drive them the right direction than the thought that they won't be renominated.

Time for a new strategy, one that does not include trying to convince loyalbushies from either party to do anything other than what their corporate paymasters tell them to, which includes not representing the peoples' will.

Fact: it's all about money. Not patriotism, or dead troops, or freedom, or democracy. Money. Our money - into their obscenely overfilled pockets. Hence, the new strategy: no more of our money. The "anti-war" (which should be labeled the anti-illegal-occupation) majority must be encouraged to shut off the blood supply - buy only needs, drive the least amount possible, buy Citgo, cancel you NYT/WP/LAT subscriptions and your cable and satellite. Stop paying taxes. Consider every penny spent as a vote.

"They" will do anything to grab our dollars - even if it means doing the right thing under duress. Rewarding "them" constantly for doing the wrong thing means more wrong things, no matter how many people scream stop.

Impeachment is the only logical solution for those who want to end the war.

Forgive me, but ... the Dumbs say they're scared to do anything, for risk of losing their majority. And they need that majority in order to do WHAT?

We've had 9 months of Dumb majorities in both houses of Congress, and the only product of any value they've got to show is a compromise rise in the minimum wage. Other than that, it's more troops, fewer rights, and Cheney still in office.

Hell, just before the recess they passed a renewal of the FISA law which, even after the Patriot 1 & 2 fiascos (not to mention Michael Moore in an ice cream truck), they STILL didn't bother to read before passing!!

Maybe Michael Lerner and his crew can plant the seeds of a credible third party. Lord knows (religious left reference, there!) the two we've got aren't doing us any good!

In case somebody isin`t aware yet, I was watching C-SPAN today with our democratic rep Ike Skeleton running the committee for the Iraq report, when some CODE PINK folks raised their voices in protest and he threw them out. I guess they forgot to turn their mikes off because Skelton says to Duncan Hunter they piss me off the assholes, what nice folks we got representing us, com-on folks everybody call the ASSHOLE representive Skelton

anney said:

"Wanna' really get the Democrats in line? Vote Republican!"

Like voting for Tweedledumb is going to make any difference.

Remember how they all (dems & repubs)spew they're crap every election cycle, and they all end up doing nothing they puke out! Clinton is spewing it now with how she'll get us to independant enery, health care for all, I've been hearing this stuff since the seventies and it ain't happened yet. Vote down the incumbent! Term limits,no retirement system for politicians

Lovemusicfood...100,000 in DC Friday...sitting down...peacefully...not moving until CONGRESS LISTENS TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE...I'll see you there...SPREAD THE WORD...WE MUST DO SOMETHING NOW! NOW! NOW! Will they arrest all of us? Where will they put us? WE CAN DO THIS!! AND IT WILL GROW AS MORE AMERICANS SEE THAT IT CAN BE DONE!!....T H E Y W I L L
J O I N US!!

The GOP won big when they did the "Contract" deal. They wound up screwing the populance, but they managed to end 40 years of Democrat domination in Congress. The Democrat contract is out there and it does not simply rely on withdrawal from Iraq. If we just recognize why Americans have become the most hated people on earth we have the solution to a plan beyond withdrawal.
First of all let's recognize the real reason why we went in to Iraq—OIL. No other reason. Democracy for Iraq was an obscene joke. We would call it a democracy if they gave us total control over their oil. We wanted Saddam out because he would no longer take orders from Washington (Big Oil).
The Democrats should promise to America that we will no longer use our military to achieve the goals of international businesses. Our troops would be deployed only in defense of our shores or in the protection of people whom the United Nations has chosen to protect.
The Democrats should promise to the world that we will no longer be the world's biggest arms supplier. We will promise to immediately cease shipments and sales of arms to any nation that is at odds with a UN resolution or which has been condemned by the World Court.
As a nation we must recognize that if we are to be truly a nation of laws, we must admit an international law by which all nations must abide. By recognizing international law as binding on all, we would undo years of ugliness, years in which the US has been seen by the third world as the ogre who takes what he wants and bullies the little people just because he can.
Leadership that says to the world that we are pulling back because we are strong and we will use our strength to help the weak will be that much stronger. No one accused the US of weakness because we helped Germany and Japan get on their feet.
We must look beyond ending the hostilities. Peace will not simply happen. Perhaps the Iraqi government(s) would be more disposed to do business with us after we are gone if we, in the end, treat them fairly and try to heal the wounds we have caused. Perhaps some healing can begin here at home if we have a government committed to openness, fairness and service to the people. With such leadership all the other issues will fall in place.

It appears that our Democratic representatives don't need us for anything except votes and do not intend to represent our concerns but their own interests.

We really don't need them. I'd rather Republicans were in office, for at least they don't lie about their goals, even if they do lie about their moral wrongdoings.

Wanna' really get the Democrats in line? Vote Republican!

"... they need to have a picture of what the world would look like if the U.S. were to withdraw from the world by leaving Iraq ... even the people in the anti-war movement don't have - a coherent alternative world view from which to base a strategy. That's why they end up debating everything on the same terms that the Republicans do."

How did Professor Noam Chomsky put it so well? "Social action MUST be animated by a vision of a future society" ..?

http://www.lasvegascitylife.com/articles/2004/01/14/scorched_earth/fear_no_evil/fearnoevil.txt

http://archive.coanews.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=1881

It is horrifying that these people are more concerned about their political futures than doing what is right and ending this travesty--which is what they were elected to do. Obviously, a Democratic president isn't going to make a difference either, unless it's Kucinich who, of course is "unelectable" because he WOULD do the right thing. I hope Pelosi gets her ass whipped by Cindy Sheehan.

People need to start taking action though. I have attended multiple protests in D.C. against the war. The first one I attended before the war started there must have been 100,000 people. There were enough people that if everyone just sat down in the street and said they weren't going to get up till our representatives said they would not go to war, it would have been a historic day. Either it would have made a huge statement that 100,000 people were willing to peacefully go without food, bathroom, water, till the right choice was made, or police would have tried to arrest 100,000 people which also would have made a huge impact on national and international opinion of the war. Both results would have been historic and everyone in this country would know about it and remember it. Untill the leaders of these protests take some substantial peaceful action other than walking around the capital and going home…. Not much will happen with our representatives or the public at large.

P.S. much of the anti-war movement is Democrat and they are too attachted to the established party to really push for change in fear of hurting the Dems.

I agree with Jaded Prole. If I thought I could be effective in reaching those I voted to elect, I might think otherwise, but it has become increasingly obvious that neither of the current parties in power is listening to the voters, and no sign that this will change anytime in the future. If this is so, then the only alternative is to form a new party even though such efforts have not succeeded in the past. There just does not appear to be any other option. Those currently in power lack both heart and reason, and most of those seeking to gain that power have not demonstrated that they do either.

"They're the ones who have to know that their people care, that they [want to] bring our troops home. They swear they don't. They swear that they'll lose their elections if they do the right thing."

This is it in a nutshell--re-election over dead bodies and driving what's left of our economy to the cellar. I thought it WAS ABOUT doing the right thing?! Why do we bother....

Pinning your hopes on anyone within your one-party system is a mugs game. You've seen the way John Conyers has caved. It's time for civil disobedience.

blessthebeasts: I hope Pelosi gets her ass whipped by Cindy Sheehan

We can only hope Ms. Sheehan uses a proper horsewhip. Or an antique British Navy cat-o-nine tails. Pelosi deserves nothing less than to bear the mark of her betrayal and shame for the rest of her life as physical scars.