Several months ago when I wrote an essay questioning the appropriateness of military air shows as a form of community-sponsored family entertainment, I received a number of responses. The gist of most of the letters was that the military defends our freedom and without it, I could not write these words. Indeed, I was told that to criticize militarism is unpatriotic and how dare I impugn the honor and integrity of those who serve in the armed forces defending the American way of life.
But what precisely is this American way of life that our military purportedly defends? We live in the richest country in the world, yet unlike other developed countries that have universal health care, tens of millions of people in this country do not have health insurance and our medical care system comes in dead last behind comparable countries. Millions of children go to bed hungry every night and our educational system is leaving far too many children behind. The standard of living of all but the rich has fallen and people are losing their homes. Our energy use and wastefulness is a toxic disgrace.
In the name of all this, we squander trillions of dollars to send our troops to fight a war that was justified by lies. In Iraq we have killed an uncountable number of innocent people and so destroyed the infrastructure of the country that millions of children are starving to death and one in eight children will die before their fifth birthday. Going to school or feeding one’s family is all but impossible and millions have now become refugees living in unspeakable conditions. The result of all this is that violence continues to escalate, more and more people hate our country and the world is a far more dangerous place. And when all is said and done, we bring our wounded warriors home to the squalid conditions of Walter Reed Army Medical Center.
To defend a government that claims these actions in the name of “democracy” is hardly patriotic. At best, it might be construed as nationalism. As George Orwell once put it, “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
Indeed in the aftermath of the atrocities that occurred on Sept. 11, 2001, in a scene that seemed scripted by Orwell himself, American flags started to appear everywhere–on cars, lapels and babies’ bottoms. That defecating on the flag to which we pledge allegiance could be construed as patriotism should surely have given us pause to wonder if perhaps the true meaning of patriotism has been hijacked.
Clearly what was conveniently forgotten in this unquestioning, reflexive flag-waving is that dissent in the face of tyranny is the ultimate act of patriotism, it is in fact how this country was founded. We Americans are long overdue for a very serious discussion of just what it is that we are defending, which by any definition is a far cry from democracy or freedom.
There is no excuse for putting the interests of our way of life over that of any other country or people and in doing so we only harm ourselves. Too continue to misconstrue militarism as defensible in the name of patriotism is bankrupting our country and imperiling the planet, its resources and all of its citizens. If we continue along this path, there will, in the end, be nothing left to defend.
As July 4th approaches, it may well be time to consider whether patriotism and the defense of national borders is in fact an outmoded concept. Instead of Independence Day, perhaps it is time to declare an Interdependence Day and to pledge allegiance as global citizens, to build our strength by nurturing our resources rather than plundering them, by nurturing all of the world’s citizens, especially the young. Most of all, it is time to pledge to end the wanton destruction of the planet and the politics of hatred and greed that divide us.
Lucinda Marshall is a feminist artist, writer and activist. She is the Founder of the Feminist Peace Network, www.feministpeacenetwork.org. Her work has been published in numerous publications in the U.S. and abroad including, Counterpunch, Alternet, Dissident Voice, Off Our Backs, The Progressive, Countercurrents, Z Magazine , Common Dreams, In These Times and Information Clearinghouse. She also blogs at WIMN Online and writes a monthly column for the Louisville Eccentric Observer, where this piece originally appeared. For this piece, she is indebted to her son Josh for pointing her towards the Orwell quote.
Excellent perspective!
I keep thinking that Orwell would either marvel at the creative capacity of the neo-cons . . . this wicked mix of the military-industrial-congressinoal complex with an ideologically warped, extremist political agenda, with fascism at its core . . . or simply shiver at how far beyond even his imagination they’ve taken this evil.
Personally I prefer Thomas Paine’s philosophy, that we are citizens of the world, and doing good our religion.
Thanks for speaking out.
Brilliant piece, couldn’t have said it better myself!
What I often find most disturbing about the current crop of right-wing propaganda to justify our presense in Iraq are the false analogies with World War II. So many conservatives even claim we haven’t been nearly “brutal enough” in our illegal conquest and occupation of Iraq, a country that never attacked us. If only we would take the gloves off, we would win, they claim. We are fighting a “politically correct” war, because of the liberals, who do not want us to win. The “real” patriots, who want to “win” have no qualms about using extreme brutality to get their way.
As if that wasn’t enough, some older conservatives claim the World War II generation were so much more “superior” and “patriotic” compared to today’s liberal pseudo-patriot “wimps”. They seem to suggest that the ultimate patriotic act we commited in all of American history was the dropping of nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And oh yeah, if we had to fight World War II today, we would quickly lose because of the back-stabbing, wimpy “liberals” who aren’t as “patriotic” as the conservatives. So extreme bullying, extreme violence, extreme obedience, and extreme pillaging are the ultimate form of “patriotism” in the minds of many people who call themselves conservatives; so what is it that makes that difference from fascism, and what is it we are fighting for again?
You’re dead-on right, Lucinda. It ain’t our country any more–and that’s just for starters. Our “government” is a gang of heavily armed thugs who are the enemies of its people. Its military is nothing more than an armed criminal gang hired and equipped to carry out the wishes of the criminals in power.
One may love America and its people, but if you do you must despise its government. The flag is a symbol of government, and not of America or the American people.
I have a little trouble understanding how any person of conscience could feel any allegiance to this government, and how any person of sense could imagine that its military exists to defend the “way of life” of the American people.
The military exists for no other reason than to use armed force to further the interests of the elites. At present these interests are largely centered on gaining or maintaining control of resources for the further enrichment of the already obscenely wealthy elites. (Oops! That’s not just “at present.”)
The people in this country have no freedom, no security, no economic or social justice, and peaceful public demonstrations by the people are opposed with heavily armed force.
I’m wondering where the flag-wavers get the idea that either the government or its military represents their interests–or how they can fail to notice that both are inimical to their interests.
If we devoted half as much energy to peace and education (real not what we have) there would be less need for a military.
This brings up a point.
Eisenhower’s Military-Industrial-Complex warning was the result of a lifetime of justified expansion of the military when the country actually needed it (WWI, WWII, etc.) followed by a period of,what they used to call, deescalation and maintenance. Of course that same M.I.C. decided it would be much more profitable to keep the whole thing amped up for war on a constant basis by creating the Cold War. With that travesty in the past, they are really having a hard time keeping it up, so to speak.
We need to fire 2/3’s of our military and get the rest to work on helping THIS country. We would have plenty of money for our railroads and mass transit systems as gas creeps towards $5/gallon; and, don’t get me started on our education system.
The US military does not in fact defend the USA. The US military does not in fact defend the freedoms and rights of US-American citizens. The US military has not defended the USA for a very long time. It is not the mission of the US military to defend the USA. Legitimate military defence of the USA would mean that the US armed forces patrolled US territorial waters, land borders and airspace, as well as providing a small nuclear deterrent. The US armed forces do not do that - or if they do, the extent to which they do it is trivial as well as being obviously ineffective. The US armed forces are deployed all over the world, but they are not defending their own country and their own people. They are patrolling the borders, airspace and territorial waters of just about every country in the world - EXCEPT the USA itself. When terrorists attacked New York and Washington in September 2001, what good were the 700 US military bases all over the world to the people of the USA? What good were the US Navy battle groups in the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean to the people in the World Trade Centre?
Moreover, even during World War II the US military was not defending the USA. The USA - for that matter, the entire American continent - never faced a serious military threat from Germany, Japan or Italy during WWII, and if the military security of the USA were the main concern of US leaders during WWII they would have kept the USA out of the war. The one time the Axis managed to strike hard blows on US targets, those targets were in Hawaii and the Philippines, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and of the coast of the Asian mainland, nowhere near the American continent. US servicemen did indeed fight for freedom during WWII, but not for the freedom of US-Americans. They fought for the freedom of France, Belgium, Holland, the USSR, Indonesia, China and other countries that had been attacked and occupied by Germany and Japan, as well as the Jews who were being slaughtered en masse by the Nazis, and that might have been a good enough reason to participate in that war, but we should nevertheless not delude ourselves into thinking that it was a war in defence of the USA or the American continent. And lest anyone accuse me, as a Canadian, of being a hypocrite, I hasten to add that my critique applies equally to Canada. Canada, as part of the American continent, never faced a serious military threat during WWII. And moreover, today, Canada needs its armed forces at home to patrol its vast coastline - a coastline that is getting longer all the time because of global warming. We do not need them in Afghanistan or the Persian Gulf. Every time Canadian soldiers or their allies kill people in Afghanistan, extremist factions within our own Muslim population become strengthened and the likelihood of a domestic terrorist attack increases.
Lucinda Marshall’s message about the need to rethink patriotism is dead on target (to use an unfortunate metaphor
). For too long we have considered the most patriotic thing a person can do is to cross the oceans and kill people on the orders of our leaders. We must put a stop to that perverse conception of patriotism.
http://www.kibush.co.il
Mark Marshall (no relation to Lucinda)
Toronto
The flag wavers really come out once we start bombing someone. This is what you call negative conditioning. See the flag, see something evil happening. You associate one event with the other.[like Pavlovs dog] Then they want to take one more of your rights away with a flag burning ammnedment. Insult to injury.
MAMMON RULES!!!
Schneringer,
I disagree with you when you say we “needed” to expand the U.S military for World War I. That was a wholly European/Middle Eastern conflict we never should have gotten involved in. Moreover, even more so than with our victory in the Spanish-American war, that war marked our imperialist christening. That imperialist hubris infects U.S policy to this day. Our involvement in World War II was justified because we were attacked by Japan, even though our victory gave yet another big boost for American imperialism.
Dear Lucinda,
Thank you for writing this poignant article. I also thank your son for the Orwell quote. Howard Zinn and others have written about “nationalism” and the harm done in the name of “patriotism”. How about if every country on Earth with an “armed force” stays within the confines of it’s geographical boundries, and plays “good guys,bad guys” in training exercises in the event of an invasion from some other country, which won’t come, because we homo sapiens want to live and let live, and refrain from invading our neighbors across the border or half way around the planet. If our elected,or in the case of the coward-in-chief (selected by the Supreme Court) and the other “Congressional ” representatives want to initiate an act of military aggresion against our brothers and sisters in another country, we have the obligation as thinking human beings to reprimand them like we do our children when they do something wrong. The military industrial complex knows it is in their best interest to keep the public in fear of the boogieman from abroad. They invent an enemy to keep this immoral routine going. One way to stop “legalized murder”, aka “war”, is to support the troops who refuse to fight, like it says on my “courage to resist” tee shirt, otherwise perpetual war will continue. “hell no, we won’t go” has to be the battle cry of young men and women around the world.
Again, Ms Marshall, thank you for this article.
,
I have found it easier to be FOR peace instead of being AGAINST war and militarism.
People often agree with my desire for peace through legitimate governments, fair markets, and heathy environments, but I find they simply don’t want to have a conversation that involves any type of questions or criticism related to what this country and our leaders are doing.
George Orwell was a visionary. We have covered just about every chapter of 1984 except that we don’t wear gray jumpsuits. Yet.
I have no problem with patriotism. It is not a crime to support your country. It is the same as supporting your family, you may disagree with them, you may want to kick their ass on occasion, but you support them all the same.
I agree that the U.S. Military should be used closer to home. I see no point in using them for “nation building” or “humanitarian aid” anywhere in the world other than here. Bosnia, Somolia, Liberia, Iraq, ect. are a waste of time and resources.
Think of what would happen if everyone in the USA that opposes Bush and his empire refused to pay taxes.
That would really send a powerful message.
also remember that you have to take care of yourself first before you are any good to others. remember the sick, starving, undereducated within our own borders. set a good example here.
Ms. Marshall speaks for me. The military resonates with the planetary principle Mars. It’s all about me-first, ego, might-makes-right, force first, brutality, hierarchy, and linearity. In short MARS is both enemy to mankind AND the circle. The profound geometric symmetry of principles designed within the zodiac circle shows the ways and means to harmony among mankind’s tribes. When Mars takes on disproportionate power relative to the whole, all of mankind feels the wound. THAT is currently the paradigm. Ingeniously to the extent monotheism has codified a concept of the Deity that is consistent with Mars, has lent a glaring spiritual disconnect (note the role of religions in fomenting the Middle East war) to the way war is championed in ‘god’s’ name. Centuries ago the church cast the astrologer as heretic for understanding the wisdom of the heavenly circle and what mankind can metaphorically draw from it. Now as the “religious/faith base” foment war, it is time to ASK what GOD they are referring to in their deluded mission to wipe out another nation (several) and its people. ONLY the circle can save us from ourselves. It is heaven’s symbol of democracy, a means to peace among tribes, a model wherein apparent irreconcilable differences become neutralized by the positions taken by surrounding “players.” DISARM the military, and disarm our minds which particularly in the US has lent this dark force unspeakable power, and a false license to kill. Nature herself burns as a result, as our planet grows increasingly less habitable till mankind–starting with the US that accelerated the growth of this cancer upon the world–gets with a higher program!
peaceistruth; I like your first entry, and may I add a footnote? By 1944, the Japanese government knew there was no way they could beat us and sent envoys to other countries asking them to intervene for an “honorable” surrender. We were bombing Japan and they couldn’t stop us, the defense plants in the U.S. were booming, Americans were working, and many figured the”war” pulled us out of the “Depression” of the 1930’s. The reason for not one, but two atom bombs, was not to save a million lives in the event we invaded the mainland, but to show our ally, the Soviet Union, who’s the “boss”! When the Germans surrendered in May, Stalin told Truman and Churchill he would move some of the troops east and attack Japan on the western side of the island nation. Harry’s advisors persuaded him to drop the” big ones” knowing the Imperial Government would surrender and the Soviets need not come to our aid. No dividing up Nippon with the Ruskies as we did in Europe.
scvile; I tend to agree with what you have said. War is “gangsterism on a national level” with the military doing the dirty work for theives in high places. One of my favorite signs at an anti-war rally said ” kill one person & it’s murder; kill thousands & it’s foreign policy”.
dlnelson7 ; You are so right! We’ve got it reversed in this country. Keep em’ dumb, and they won’t rebel. They’ll follow orders.
mark marshall; I have always liked Canadians, and you, my friend, bring out the best of our northern neighbors.
ezflyer; I agree, sadly.
nathan andover; well said, well said. My Mother used to say, “you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”. Love is much more powerful than hate, but for some, not as profitable.
Genuine patriots, the true servants of their nation, create peace within themselves. The technology to create peace is available. It is easy to learn, easy to use, and it has been proven effective in more than 600 scientific studies.
National borders are as artificial as preservatives in food. Today the world is a field, moreso than ever before, because of modern technology.
Only knowledge from the most ancient technology, the most ancient tradition of knowledge, will be good enough to free mankind from the limits of his own creation.
www.tm.org
www.uspeacegovernment.org
Nazi America!
siouxrose,
I admire the wisdom in all your writings, especially the comment above. Astrology and astronomy were one for thousands of years before the church “fathers” put the squash on them. Look what happened to Giordano Bruno, the mystic. Seven years into the 21st century and look at the plight of this country and the rest of the world.
IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS, IT IS UNFORGIVABLE!
i have argued that america does not need a military since i was a teenager (back in the 50’s)..I have yet to find a person that agrees..nice to see the word disarm in print, i still argue for disband..’n yeah i was in the usaf (64-68), which allowed me to experience first hand that the military is indeed a joke..
ken
One of my country’s heroines, Senior Nursing Sister Edith Cavell, put her finger right on it when she said on the night before her execution (for helping wounded British and French soldiers to escape from German occupied Belgium during the First World War) that: “…patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone”.
Peaceman: I appreciate the compliment. I was fortunate enough to host a live cable TV show in the Florida Keys for 8 years as a means to educate the public on this topic that’s had a PR job done to it tantamount to centuries of rightwing hate radio! Please readers understand that the “newspaper” version of astrology is generic, and in NO way points to the mathematical congruencies one must understand to properly read the map of the heavens as a SYMBOLIC document. Our universe speaks in a number of exquisite sign languages and while I have studied many Oracle systems, there is nothing as accurate as astrology in the explanation for human character and destiny. Fate factors into the human mix as does free will. Neither is supreme, for at essence the two forces dance and give rise to unexpected outcomes. In mathematics a similar device is seen in the permutation, and in Darwin’s theory, the mutation. I like to say Creation is involved in an everlasting process without beginning or end, and the activities of us mortals here on earth helps to grow Creation. Of course that is when we accord with principles of love, light and creativity. Acts of destruction, hatred and darkness challenge evolution, but there are those that adhere to the darkness and as most in this forum would probably agree, these constitute too many leaders today.
Thank you.
Here’s a question for everybody:
Has the US National Security State, which officially came into being in 1947 when Harry “Nukem” Truman signed National Security Directive No.1 - an executive order that never went through any legislative process and is unknown the the vast majority of US citizens - done a single useful thing with our vast military/industrial/espionage/corporate government conglomerate that achieved anything good, or successful at all?
Please enlighten me. There has to be something the NSS can claim as a positive development.
It has been said that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I have been using this comparison to describe real patriotism. The root of the word implies being a parent to ones country. A good parent is proud of his/her child when appropriate. But, when a child does wrong headed things it is child abuse to turn away and say he is just being a kid.
Those who ignore the crimes of the Bush or anyother administration are not blind patriots. They are excersizing selective ignorance. “My country right or wrong. When right to keep her right. When wrong to put her right.”
Lucinda, that is a succinct summation of the problem. But it is not new. What you are talking about is what America has been for a long time. Just read John Dos Passos novels (1919, The Big Money, The 42nd Parallel) which expose the same sort of US culture 100 years ago. Just look at the Industrial Workers of teh World (the IWW) movement early last century, at what happened to the US WWI veterans who sought better conditions when they came home. Wages for workers in the timber industry in the West/northwest had increased by something like 15% while living costs and profits inthat industry ahd gone up some 150% [or figures as egregious as that] but when the workesr, including many veterans who had fought for their country, tried to get modest pay increases the bosses, with government backing and approval moved in gangs of thugs to smash (I use the word deliberately) even peaceful meetings of these equally patriotic Americans.
Before Roosevelt, whenever anyon tried to improve the lot of ordinary people, teh full weight of government came down on them - troops and all. Macarthur and Eisenhower were part of teh command structure that turned the US Army on WWI veterans who marched on Washington, not for revolution but to draw attention to their poor financial plight, in the early thirties.
What is happening now is nothing new. It is merely the latest development in what America really is.
Methinks we need to stop calling working for the military “service.” They do not serve us at all. They have made ordinary Americans unwelcome in many countries around the world. No one “serves” in the military. Soldiers are employed by the Army, Marines by the Marine Corps, and so on. Let’s drop this talk of service.
Siouxrose and all of her admirers: You are all idiots. Consider this quote: “there is nothing as accurate as astrology in the explanation for human character and destiny.” How can progressives expect to be taken seriously if that kind of extreme ignorance is expressed in these posts? I feel embarrassed to be in the same forum with such mind-boggling stupidity.
Lucinda Marshall’s peice reminds me of a “joke,” and not a very funny one at that, I received in my e-mail this morning. The “joke’s” subject matter was an atheist professor, who is a member of the ACLU and a marine.
The punchline belongs to the marine who says, after flattening the professor with one punch,”God was too busy today protecting America ’s soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid sh*t and act like an a**hole. So, He sent me.”
I can well imagine this type of humor went over big in Germany, c. 1937 or so.
The U.S. military works for oligarchical collectivism.
Over the years the NSS has attracted thousands of devious-secretive-sadistic types into their cabal.Thus the positive-you know where they are. Mutually reinforcing bad behaviors is another matter of course.
So many well versed comments on this thread-too bad almost none of them even lightly touched on in US textbooks.
Patriot: “-a U.S. army anti-aircraft missile with a range of 37 miles and a 200-lb warhead.”
Is that particular ‘Patriot’, -as used by belligerent armies in faraway lands (not their own), actually *patriotic*, ~or just idiotic?
The word Patriot stems from the Greek (patros) for “father”.
Patriots are supposed to ‘love their fatherland’, (-but not their motherland?) and patriotism in itself is no wonderful thing; ~ after all, Nazi supporters ‘patriotically’ loved their fatherland (Germany) - as ruled by a certain A. Hitler…
I have a notion the this ‘patriot’ thing is closely associated with the duping of childlike minds by coercive and mendacious ‘parental’ figures who’ve wormed their way to the top of the societal / political dung heap.
Anyone who has studied Dr Eric Berne and his T.A. [Transactional Analysis], will know of the P.A.C. (Parent, Adult, Child) relationship, wherein anyone ‘pulling rank’ as a ‘Parent’ figure, -tends to cast his / her peers into ‘Child’ mode.
[for further reading see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_%28book%29]
__________
Government figures, especially the worst of the breed, use this knowledge to their full and selfish advantage, and so manipulate their ‘children’ (-eg: we the electorate) by first trying to scare us with inflated *bogeyman* threats, and then pretending to be the ‘rescuing’ parent who will ‘guard against all ills’, (-even as they are secretly misappropriating various state funds!)
Even as a teacher, the moment I stand up in front of a class of students (including adults), I perceive my students’ attitude towards me often coming from their ‘child’ selves, -even though I go out of my way to create a peer-to-peer relationship!
__________________
We need to mature, and gain psychological independence from our supposed _in loco parentis_ government ‘parents’, ~ that situation wherein we hand all the power to our ‘paternal’ leaders.
We need to wrest back our power, and thus be able to make intelligent decisions about our own lives, freed of interference from those often very inappropriate / corrupt leaders.
Horace Walpole said, “The most popular declaration which a candidate could make on the hustings was that he had never been, and never would be, a patriot.”
[~Almost a paraphrase of McCarthy there!]
To be a patriot, a tame parrot, -or both? -that is the question! REAL Patriots in the USA could justifiably almost conduct ‘Pat-Riots’ in the streets! –in the light (-or dark!) of what their malevolent government has done in the name of this tendentious word.
________________
Siouxrose: “Nature herself burns as a result.”
Yes indeed, we are not ‘loving our Mother’ much at that moment!
And: “[let us] …get with a higher program…” ~Yes please!!
Also: ” …Creation is involved in an everlasting process without beginning or end, and the activities of us mortals here on earth helps to grow Creation. Of course that is when we accord with principles of love, light and creativity. Acts of destruction, hatred and darkness challenge evolution…”
~ I couldn’t agree more Sioux!
__________________
I am pleased here to recall a very UN-patriotic fellow countryman’s words: Here’s the renowned UK poet Roger McGough, and his early poem, written in the Vietnam period:
“Why Patriots are a Bit Nuts in the Head”
“Patriots are a bit nuts in the head
Because they wear
red, white and blue-
tinted spectacles
(red for blood,
white for glory,
and blue…
for a boy)
and are in effervescent danger
of losing their lives
lives are good for you
when you are alive
you can eat and drink a lot
and go out with girls
(sometimes if you are lucky
you can even go to bed with them)
but you can’t do this
if you have your belly shot away
and your seeds
spread over some corner of a foreign field
to facilitate
in later years
the growing of oats by some peasant yobbo
when you are posthumous, it is cold and dark
and that is why patriots are a bit nuts in the head.”
Ron says: “Siouxrose and all of her admirers: You are all idiots…”
Dear Ron, I am really okay if you wish to call me an idiot, but I can’t really consider Siouxrose one.
I am not, (as you phrase it), ‘an admirer’ as such, -but I do appreciate a lot of her writings as being perceptive, caring and incisive.
But either way Ron, does it actually *help* the cohesion of our movement towards new thinking and change, to go round calling intelligent, caring people (-your fellow workers), “idiots”?
Tell me Ron, -if you would please, have you yourself never acted or spoken idiotically?
I certainly have acted idiotically on MANY occasions!
If you have too, why bother to castigate someone else, when you might be contributing something more positive to the discussion?
To disagree with someone’s ideas is legitimate, -but to try to dismiss an intelligent person as an ‘idiot’ is less than helpful?
One of the reasons the world is in such a mess at the moment is that there is such a propensity for division, aggression, hateful words, BLAMING, and lack of unity in our race.
The cure for these ills is not to simply replicate previous errors of aggression and intolerance, but to learn how to be, -and act, and speak DIFFERENTLY from how we did it before.
That means changing *ourselves* ~from being nasty aggressive, intolerant toads, into being understanding, tolerant and lo, … even *loving* fellow members of the human family!
I hope you don’t consider my words above TOO ’stupid;’ and ‘idiotic’ Ron?
I am reminded of the saying: “If you always do, as you’ve always done, nothing will change.”
That kinda applies to all of us m’dear…
Singed,
‘a very stupid idiot’
The root of the problem for me has always been the utterly, loony preposterous notion that invading impoverished nations that are not threatening me in the least - from Vietnam, to Nicaragua, to El Salvador to Indonesia to Grenada to Panama to Afghanistan to Iraq - are “defending my “freedom”!!!
No, Mr. War-Pig, you are NOT defending my “freedom” whatever that is supposed to mean.
Look, even Japan, Nazi Germany, or even the Soviet Union had neither the interest and/or the means to invade and occupy the North American continent.
And Siouxrose, sorry but astrology is nothing but superstition. The positions of planets tens to hundreds of millions of miles away, and stars hundreds of light year, away do not influence human affairs in the least bit.
” the military defends our freedom and without it, I could not write these words. ”
This sentiment has been expressed too many times without anyone looking at it and wondering now WTF is that supposed to mean? When was the last time that the military protected my rights? WWII? Where has the threat to my rights come from now? The Oval Office and the Dick’s office. Why isn’t the military doing something to protect my rights now? After all, everyone of them swore an oath to protect the Constitution from all enemies both domestic and foreign. At least some of Hitler’s generals had enough love for their country to try to blow him to pieces.
Ron:
Wow! Siouxrose is far more articulate than me-perhaps she’ll respond to you directly.
My response to you is-does for instance Catholicism make more sense than astrology? To wit-the virgin birth [sex is “dirty” and can be used as part of the oppression of the “flock”-and my absolute favorite-original sin-a baby is born flawed!
Perhaps monotheism is the most logical system for humans-but certainly not in the co-opted forms in modern times.
Whether or not you agree with Siouxrose’s beliefs-her posts are beatifully written and provocative.Is that not valuable to you?
Yes, as Maj. Gen. Smedly Butler said: “The only things worth defending with our military are our homes and the Bill of Rights, the rest is just a racket”
Siouxroses writings are flowery new-ageish language intended to short-circuit logic and reason. We should address urgent issues with the humanist values of reason and logic, informed by the human instincts of kindness and compassion, what else do we need to know?
By the way Siouxrose, are you of Lakota descent?
Look, people. Everyone agrees that Siouxrose’s heart is in the right place. She is trying to make this a better, more peaceful world. So try to not hurt her feelings.
Having said that, it is true that arguing points of fact from an astrological viewpoint is silly. If we really want to change the world, we need to deal with reality, the ONLY thing that works. And reality will continue to be real no matter how much New Age mysticism we throw at it. Reality not only doesn’t care what you THINK, it isn’t even aware that you are thinking. All reality cares about is what you DO, so in order to influence reality, we need to understand it, to study it, to poke and prod at it to see what happens. That leaves out mysticism of all kinds including virgin births, transubstantiation and original sin. To continue to argue using baseless “facts” only hurts the position one is taking regardless of how valid the original position was. It allows the opposition to focus on your facts rather than your position and thus appear to have defeated you even when they haven’t even addressed your position. So, please, people. Stick to reality or else the knucledraggers will win the argument.
PJD:
“And Siouxrose, sorry but astrology is nothing but superstition. The positions of planets tens to hundreds of millions of miles away, and stars hundreds of light year, away do not influence human affairs in the least bit.”
~Yet, to say the least, the moon has a gravitational effect upon the female menses, as well as our Earthly tides?
With all due respect PJD, but it has e’er been the case, -throughout human history - that they who are not apprised of the full picture, are (nonetheless) often wont to utterly dismiss that which they do not (as yet) fully comprehend.
~ As Shakespeare said: “There is more to heaven and earth Horatio than this world dreams of…”
PJD again:
“Siouxroses writings are flowery new-ageish language intended to short-circuit logic and reason. We should address urgent issues with the humanist values of reason and logic, informed by the human instincts of kindness and compassion…”
I would respectfully suggest that there is, -actually, a lot more to life than this persistent (generally male) over-reliance upon, “reason and logic” has to offer.
The Nazis (to quote but one of many) were ‘reasoned and logical’ in their conclusion that Jewish, homosexual and Romany people were worthless scum, -and thus could (logically and reason-ably) be wiped from the earth?
[etc, etc]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Human history is FULL of very gross mistakes committed by those who had only ‘reason and logic’ at their helm.
You also say: “…*Informed* by the human instincts of kindness and compassion…” - but could those latter attributes be not better placed BEFORE logic and reason, and let kindness and compassion be *informed* by logic and reason?
~ “Cart before the horse”, and all that?
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with ‘reason and logic’, as far as they go, but what was, (-and is still), lacking in that picture, is the addition of WISDOM and LOVE in our age.
Logic and reason are everywhere, - but love and wisdom are woefully in short supply in our age methinks?
If ‘reason and logic’ are not blent with the warmer attributes, then almost ‘anything goes’: –murders, death camps, tortures, child rapes, bombing of innocent civilians… all of these can be justified with somebody’s ‘reason or logic’, ~ but not *one* such terrible offence can be justified if a person *first* acts with love and compassion towards their fellow human beings.
~ Might you agree with any of that PJD?
__________________
dkm writes:
“…Having said that, it is true that arguing points of fact from an astrological viewpoint is silly. If we really want to change the world, we need to deal with reality…”
I agree DKM, reality is *essential*, -which means we have to abandon any unrealities conjured up via drugged dreams, as well mass media fictions, and focus on ALL realities, seen and as yet not widely seen.
This topic brings up a disparate variety of philosophical viewpoints concerning ‘reality’, but who among us is to know (categorically, absolutely, 100%) that sciences such as astrology are completely without foundation?
Sure, the mass media version is garbage, but then, so is the equivalent piffle spouted by many commentators, about so much that is otherwise worthy and of note!
~ Do we ourselves not also suffer from having our very valid ideas rubbished by the deeply-unknowing ones in the media?
In the same way, there is, (-actually, in reality!) a lot of stuff out there, which mainstream ’science’ denies utterly, -but which have (actually) a concrete foundation in reality.
There are COUNTLESS examples of this ‘denier’ phenomenom, (-far too many to mention here!), - everything from the records of the Society of Psychical Research though to alternative medicines et al.
I am not one to readily take on outlandish beliefs, but over the years, -to remain true to empirical, personal evidence, I’ve had to acknowledge that what I once thought was spurious was often then proved to be real.
Even as a non-believer, I have (in reality!) –(eg)actually healed people with chronic medical conditions from great distances, and I’ve had (drug free!) experiences of consciously existing outside of, and away from my body… and many, many more so-called ‘weird’ experiences…
Now current ‘reality science’ would attempt to dismiss all of those things as anything at all, ~ just as long as they could remain fixed firmly in their dogma, and entrenched [materially-biased] intransigence!
But the future is not just about being stuck eternally, horribly, -in extant materialism, all that old stuff is on the wane.
The future has many wonders which we have yet to see, –which have yet to be revealed, and many in the present world will be utterly astounded if they had a glimpse of these things!
________________
A request to the narrow thinkers (-world wide), and to those who are so quick to demean everything which they do not yet properly or fully understand: “*Please* take note of the pattern of human history ~ wherein SO much that was ‘real’ (but yet hideously rubbished by the ’status quo’ of that age), was then later appraised, and found to be real, and actual, and of great value!
Don’t agree?
Then ask Galileo’s persecutors what they think of the concepts: “Space Travel, Computers, Antibiotics, the Infernal Combustion engine, Lasers, Television, Mobile Phones, Submarines, MRI scans, the Internet, Radio, or even the humble electronic carving knife!” ~ and all the other plethora of things that, -a few centuries back, would have been a hang-able offence to think or speak of!
Bon voyage m’dears!
Free Leonard Peltier!
June 26, 2001 will mark 36 years since the F.B.I., utilizing agent/operatives and recruited extremist informants,
initiated a fire fight at the Jumping Bull residence on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota that resulted in the death of a
young Oglala man, Mr. Joseph Stuntz, and two federal agents, Mr. Ron Williams and Mr. Jack Coler. They and their loved ones
as well the loved ones of dozens of other Indian people murdered and Leonard Peltier are the principal victims of the reign of
terror conducted by the F.B.I. and other government agencies. Subsequently, this year will also mark the 31st year of
imprisonment for Mr. Leonard Peltier.
http://www.aimovement.org/peltier/index.html
I too enjoyed the article.
Quote from Carl Sagan.
“The world is my country, and science is my religion”.
From my perspective, not a bad place to start.
The current crop of ’self proclaimed patriots’ would torture our founding fathers until they gave up on their ’socialist ideas’.
I am greatly disturbed that we seem to be moving into an era where one can claim that all kinds of fantastical notions like astrology and miracle cures merely because they assert it.
When someone provides me with a properly designed, peer-reviewed study showing that predictive power of sstrology, I will believe in astrology.
It’s nice to be missed (LOL). I didn’t expect to be ATTACKED (and thank you dear gentlemen champions, Uncommon Dreams and Klever for defending me and making some important points in so doing)… it was time for my bike ride and immersion in the healing springs near my home. So, back in the saddle, where to begin? First let me say that if I were standing next to a well trained mathematician I would NOT challenge his or her equations. I seriously doubt anyone in this forum has my understanding or expertise regarding the subject of astrology. Any opinions, unless informed are juvenile at best. To Ron, in particular, there’s much to learn about yourself from your projected fear and aversion to things OVER YOUR HEAD.
If anyone who wishes to take me on learns the subject, studies the empirical data that links events with major astrological configurations, then we COULD have a civilized discussion. Leveling insults at me for what YOU do not understand, borrowing a prejudice based on a false castigation of a realm of study you have never ventured into, shows a lack of imagination and grace.
I have spent my PRECIOUS time explaining the quintessential differences between logic/left brain and the more expansive intuitive forms of knowledge & direct understanding. To illustrate this point I will relate something anecdotal. Just outside Gainesville Florida was a woman who was trained by Indian medicine men in a ritual known as soul retrieval. If anyone reading this has had a major loss as a child, then parts of your being remain stuck in that energetic zone. I realize that’s “new age mumbo jumbo” to the unititiated, but Freud, oh master of psychology thought women were given to psychological problems because they lacked a dick. So please. Let us consider that ALL sources project their own prejudices as a result of a limited mindset. In any case, she called her work “the journey.” It consisted of writing down the 3 most traumatic events of one’s life and then laying down–as you would for a massage–on a table. The woman never once touched me, but I could feel unbelievable physiological EFFECTS as she cleared my auric field with a feather. (No ordinary feather, no ordinary healer and no the average jerk cannot do this. These are aptitudes that in part work in tandem with forces that your physical senses cannot see, nor are they equipped to.) It was chilly in that room and I had to pee, so I think I rushed the ritual. When I threw my legs over the table to use her bathroom, I saw my feet as those of a 6 year old child: the age of my first traumatic event. PART OF myself in consciousness had “returned” to that point in time. I went outside and wrote my impression of the experience and how she had faciliated it and sent her a copy. She read it and cried. She said no one had ever captured it just as she saw it… and her mate worked at the University of Florida, a left brain scientist type. He read my account of “the journey” and said, “I hate the way this woman writes.” I have had this before with extremely left brain-trained men. Fellas, there’s some arrogance in this because you’re really trying to protect the sense that you have fixed answers… that’s why this material seems dangerous enough to win these insults. That’s your defenses… God forbid your illusion of being in a separate body, in control of all things including fate, should fall away. It comes down to whether you believe this is a benevolent universe or not. And if you think there is no INTELLIGENCE behind the design, you are wrong; and that NEED NOT contradict the theory of evolution. The difference of course is one of time… intelligence is still creating, and we are co-partners to this end-less, time-less process.
I knew I risked a certain reflex in some people by putting HIGHER truth on this site. Notice I don’t pretend to be an expert about economics, I listen to the arguments raised by those better informed than I am about world history. We SHOULD learn from one another here… but trying to slay the messenger (the message I happen to be equipped to share) is not kind, it mostly projects the ignorance of the person whose defenses deflect an unfamiliar perspective, and it’s NOT very progressive. As I like to say, “don’t limit possibility.”
Ahh, I’ve actually been wondering how long it would take for a paradigm war to erupt here over Siouxrose’s (always insightful) comments. un-common-dreams has come close to laying out my point of view on the subject as his/her(whichever the case may be) own.
Here is a little something I’d like to add, being sure of a couple of things…
The first thing I’m sure of is that none of us, that is it say NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US has a fully functional, specific, and accurate model of the universe at our disposal. Lacking that there is no way to dismiss anyone’s paradigm as foolish, especially if it involves aspects currently unmeasurable.
Another thing I’m sure of, and this is really more to the point, is that people who view the world differently than you do ALMOST CERTAINLY have gained insights from that paradigm that you have yet to discover.
So, the basic conclusion I come to is this, Siouxrose being correct or not is both unprovable (at this time, and for various reasons) and (FAR more importantly) IRRELEVANT. She gains insights (of a gentle and compassionate nature, we should all be so lucky) from her worldview that, frankly, seem far more in line with progressive values than much of the drek that floats around here as comments. (Lookin at you Ron)
Get off your high horse of Discovery Channel ‘knowledge’ and listen to the MESSAGE. That’s what’s important.
Heh, was posting my comment when Siouxrose herself stepped up and said everything I was currently typing and more (and nicer too!).
Sokay, being redundant is fine if the redundancy is worth the repetition.
Wow, quite a lot to respond to in this thread.
To begin with, Lucinda is right on that ‘patriotism’ within the US context needs re-evaluation. Other countries are trying to emulate US patriotism and for the same reasons. It keeps everyone from questioning and allows for ‘feel good’ gala occasions, and gives tacit consent to the rulers.
Yesterday, I came across a 2hr movie on google called Zeitgeist. I think a lot of you posting here could do with a dose of it. I am not into conspiracies but the makers of this movie present some compelling points.
dkm: we have been avoiding hurting people’s feelings or challenging their world views for so long that as PFD says, we allow the sidestepping of logic and reason. It just won’t do any more. It gets us nowhere and encourages people to not think rationally and upon good evidence. Not a good look in the 21st century to adhere to archaic ways of ordering the world. We are way past that. Hitchens has a good quote:
“Religion ends and philosophy begins just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends and astronomy begins.”
Sioux, I had a 30 year intimate affair with astrology; I counselled hundreds of people, taught dozens more and lectured on mundane astrology and global events. I eventually let go of my last superstition. It feels good, even if I have yet to stop my head from doing quck computations whenever I come across dates and related data! ☺
Onwards:
WW1 and WW11 had nothing to do with the US but a mighty lot to do with building of the US economy (and the corporatocracy) and ensuring military bases would be located in other countries. I hope you realise that a lot of those countries pay the US to maintain its bases. Germany pays $1.6B (in 2002 $US) each year. I posted a number of these countries and the amounts they pay the US on Alternet -
Bahrain - $53.4M
Kuwait - $252.98M
Qatar - $81.3M
UAE - $217.4M
Spain - $127.6M
Turkey - $116.8M
S.Korea - $842.8M
Japan - $4.4B
A good earner for the US, what? These figures come from Chalmers Johnson’s excellent book Nemesis. What if all troops were brought home? The US tax payer would have to pay for their upkeep. A bit of a quandry for the Administration wouldn’t you say? Of, course Iraq will be offered this ‘burden sharing’ that Johnson renames ‘protection money’. His book is well worth a read. Added a lot to my knowledge about the carryings on of the US.
Indijo - apparently the bill regarding federal taxes has never been enacted. As such, you can just not pay them. A couple of former IRS operatives left the IRS after finding no legal compunction to pay and have not lodged returns since. Neat eh?
The Federal Reserve is the biggest problem. It holds the US to ransom by lending money supply to the country and charging interest on each and every dollar it prints. No way out of that debt. You guys need another revolution to kick out the neo-cons and the money lenders.
It appears true that your country is held in very low esteem internationally. That would only be a problem for you and your pride if it weren’t for the fact that the current and accumulated madness in the US administration and the religious right impacts on so much of the rest of the world.
The oil wars mean that you are fighting to win enough oil to keep your MIC fighting the oil wars. It’s a nutty situation and a lot of people are hurting because of it.
The US is still empire building when a good look at history tells you that you are on the same downward spiral that has marked the passing of every empire throughout history.
I feel for you ordinary American people and I feel for all the others that have been damaged by the US’ looting and pillaging of their countries’ resources.
I am not clever enough to know the answers to stop the mire that is spreading around the world. I have to keep reading and finding out whatever I can. That’s difficult too considering how much is done behind closed doors and with news networks that are owned by the few and don’t ‘report’ anything that is proper news or proper investigative reports any more.
I am no longer able to anaesthetise myself by watching TV pap designed to keep dumbing down a populace.
I am so glad the internet is available. The finding out becomes easier (though it is also littered with very strange stuff that you have to sift through). I think the revolution you need to have is able to be mobilised by the internet. People are writing very serious books in an effort to educate and stem the rising tide of madness. I am glad they can still be published and that I can buy them. I fear that real censorship is not that far around the corner. The signs are certainly there.
I need a cup of tea.
Sioux - I had a 30 year intimate relationship with astrology. I charted and counselled hundreds of people, taught dozens more, lectured on mundane astrology and global events. I have finally let go of this, my last superstition. Mind you, I have yet to stop my head from doing quick computations whenever I come across dates and data. But that’s OK.
It’s not that anyone thinks there are ‘fixed answers’. It doesn’t work like that. For an hypothesis to become a theory, there must be sufficient evidence to support a theory. This must be testable, re-testable and have undergone peer review to even gain any credence.
Theories sit on the edge of a precipice, waiting to be disproved. There is no real certainty. As with the theory of evolution, the growing mountains of evidence from a lot of disciplines that keep supporting that theory is what has made it virtually irrefutable.
Astrology can’t provide anything like testable evidence. It is based on subjective observation. Insightful, yes. Independently, objectively testable hypothesis, no. And that is as it should be. Maybe you want to call that left-brain. I call it logic and reason with rationally based understanding. You can call ‘other’ understandings by whatever you want. Cellular memories, innate feelings, don’t understand the ’seeing’ of 6 year old feet, though. I would probably call that self-induced wishful thinking. The brain is an extraordinary organ. I enjoy keeping up with neurological data and studies. That provides a lot of insights as well.
Take care
CrackerJack69; a terrific letter to the editor! I’m very impressed with your comments. Keep writing, CJ
UN-common-dreams; you hit the bullseye! One thing about the left…liberals, progressives , new-agers, socialists, communists, anarchists, whatever we are called, by the ruling class, and I’m sorry to say this, but too many of us attack each others opinions and belief system which weakens the progressive movement. One thing you can bet on with the “money and power” people is a constant sticking together in spite of any differences among them. Money and power folks give nothing away and everything in this country that helped us working stiffs, things that we take for granted was fought for.
klever; clever post. I’m in agreement with the siouxrose defense,which she doesn’t need.
fpal; That’s about right.
Ron; I’ve been called worse things then an idiot. Offer something constructive, brother.
As a practitioner of Zen since 1971 (I am 59), I am quite familiar with new age thinking. I know where Siouxrose is coming from - a place I left long ago. Go ahead and live in your delusions, Siouxrose, but your surety in your viewpoints and your assumption that you speak from a higher plane tells me you are merely an opinionated, clueless, technically illiterate person who knows nothing of higher truth. Sorry, but those who think astrology is a science are so damn ignorant that their opinions on any topic are worthless. So what if your heart is in the right place as your defenders argue? I’m sure that George Bush is also certain that his heart is in the right place. He is a fool. The world needs fewer fools and more people whose heart is in the right place because they are awake, and not sound asleep in delusion. The current mess was caused by sleep-walking Bible-thumping ignoramuses who are certain that they are right. As a believer in astrology and a self-assured one at that, you are a part of the problem. The ability to hold an ignoramus belief is not a virtue; it’s a vice. Read The Three Pillars of Zen. Then tell me if you still subscribe to such foolishness as astrology. You are a human being, and you disgrace yourself by embracing a belief system that utterly discards the human intellect. Want to descend into the hell worlds? Continue your studies of astrology with your demon friends. Want to go the other direction? Turn away from the darkness of ignorance and study Zen. You are an indestructible spiritual being - stop disgracing yourself by making arguments based on incandescent ignorance. Technical illiteracy is no virtue and one should not be proud of one’s vast ignorance. “If you would walk the highest way, discard opinions pro and con. To founder in dislike and like is nothing but the mind’s disease, and not to see the Way’s deep truth disturbs the mind’s essential peace.” Astrology is far from the Way’s deep truth. To compare astrology with truth is like comparing the typing of a monkey with the above quoted material written by the Third (Chinese) Patriarch of Zen more than a thousand years ago. There is a difference between nonsense and wisdom. And when nonsense masquerades as wisdom, it’s time to expose it for the benefit of all sentient beings. Astrology is unworthy of further study and I hope you turn your mind around before it becomes hopelessly buried in matter. As Dan Quayle said: “It’s a terrible thing to waste your mind.”
my my ron..
gonna have a hard time convincing me that zen is the way with such strident language..zen to me is the ability to split a piece of wood in one whack–you know like see where the split spot is..stars and sticks and cards and leaves and palms and balls and such are the wisdom of personalities acquired over the ages..
ken
good discussion -
The military runs 737 military bases according to Chalmers Johnson who wrote Nememsis. I saw a Astralian documentary called “Toxic Avengers” made in 2005 which described the anger which is produced by these military bases: poisoning the ground with PCB’s from the fighter plane fuel, amunitions which are not detonated etc, these bases are left to poison the population. The example was Clark Airforce Base and Subic Bay in the Filipines which were deserted after 40 years because the [population was so disgusted with all the prostitution around the bases. So how do terrorists decide to attack the US? Could it be because of the obnoxious military bases?
Yes we need to fire about 2/3 of the entire military budget - and yes we need to stop giving Bush any more money for Iraq in September 2007 - Bush won’t be getting it according to NYTImes Frank Rich.
Many years ago I was reading a weighty book about the Holocaust written by a Polish Jew. I think it was written in the late fifties, and I was reading a paperback translation. Tho I don’t know the name of the book, or the author, but neither matters.
The premise of the book was that Patriotism and Nationalism had done more irreparable harm to humankind then anything but religion. People were killed, and became killers, to glorify La Patria.
My husband and I had a terrible argument about that premise: he was a veteran, and refused to believe he had been led down the garden path, like all the other men who marched of to kill or be killed, all in the name of ‘Patriotism’.
While I thought he had rethought his beliefs [he certainly never waved the flag under my nose again], I was stunned when he was hours away from death to be told he had never changed his mind and still thought I was wrong…
So don’t get your hopes up. It takes a lot more then rational arguments and a good presentation to win the hearts and minds of those who drank Patriotism and Nationalism with their mother’s milk.
We had a VERY interesting marriage by the way, and it’s been a long five years without him. I do think he went a bit far to make his point by checking out on the 4th of July, however…
For anyone interest please check out the link below. I hope it works. It is The United States Social Forum taking place in Atlanta Georgia this weekend.
The USSF will provide space to build relationships, learn from each other’s experiences, share our analysis of the problems our communities face, and bring renewed insight and inspiration. It will help develop leadership and develop consciousness, vision, and strategy needed to realize another world.
The USSF sends a message to other people’s movements around the world that there is an active movement in the US opposing US Policies at home and abroad.
We must declare what we want our world to look like and begin planning the path to get there. A global movement is rising. The USSF is our opportunity to demonstrate to the world Another World is Possible!
https://www.ussf2007.org/
I’m a bit baffled by how this discussion turned from the existentials of the US military to existentialism and then a persecution of Sioux Rose. Ron, let’s do the math: 59, Zen since 1971, which was 36 years ago, when you were 23; so, er, how long did you study astrology? As I’ve said before on other threads, I’m a reformed rabid atheist, but only the “rabid” part is reformed, yet I value Sioux’s contribution, composition, (not to mention her great spelling). When she mentions Mars I’m charmed, have no idea what she’s talking about, and that’s fine by me. It’s a new experience for me to just let things ride. By increasing my tolerance to new ideas, and perhaps to things I have no interest in investigating, I think I’m taking a step in the right direction. Somehow I don’t think Sioux has revoking stem cell research in mind, but by the way you capitalize “The Way” I’m not so sure about you. I’m perceptive enough to realize that you’re playing the provocateur; anyone who’s studied Zen for 36 years would never use “demon friends” in a sentence pointed at another well-meaning person and really mean it, but exercise some restraint. To play along, I would ask if you really want to ridicule fellow travelers for not fitting your ideal or–a next step–not being sufficiently revolutionary. I would caution you and certain other posters of your sharp resemblance to a notable historical figure: Maximilien François Marie Isidore de Robespierre.
Boycott all power concentrations.
xntrk,
A very thoughtful post, thanks. It’s always hard to deconstruct the belief system of another individual, even one whom you’ve spent a great deal of intimate time with. When we each perceive that we exist in a universe of such vast expanse, it’s so tempting to cling to that which is bigger than ourselves. I think it’s helpful to gain perspective by realizing that America is just a tiny drop in the cosmos, and ultimately of no consequence at all. If you focus your attention on the star Alpha Centauri, you’re probably committing a more profound act than all the governments of Earth combined.
I’d like to add that (personally) I’m not a complete ‘believer’ as such, in astrology, but I credit the *true* foundations with being a creditable science (one practiced by the intelligentsia of the ancient, higher echelons of India, the Egyptians, Chaldeans, et al). Plus, many who I respect in this day and age have also given it credence, -but for me, I just hold an open mind on the topic, waiting to prove / disprove as and when. For me it’s a ‘working hypothesis’ I suppose.
I feel much the same towards homeopathy, acupuncture and a few other topics. They seem to work, -often extremely well, and yet they defeat my logic!
As regards scientifically proving / disproving astrology, I once thought of an experiment, which may possibly help?
~I believe astrologers maintain that certain Sun signs have a predisposition towards ailments in differing parts of the body, (eg: Aquarians may suffer more complaints in the area between the knee and ankle, and also more prone to the likes of arteriosclerosis).
[BTW: Your own, -your very own!- Dick Cheney, -born in the sign of Aquarius, suffers in both of these areas…]
So, -if someone where to collate information from hospital records, -using data showing what diseases people were admitted into hospital for, and then compared that with their birthdate (= their sun sign) then that might that help show, (one way or the other) whether there was a cogent link with astrology and ‘reality’ ?
~just a thought!
__________________
Even today there was a new report which gave credence to the power of herbal remedies, (one of the many areas once much discredited by many in mainstream allopathic science?)
It appears that the humble Echinacea plant (which my family have used for many a long year as a sort of, ‘nature’s antibiotic’) is now hailed by ‘proper’ scientists as being what we had always said it was, viz: a great assistance to banishing colds etc. Here’s the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6231190.stm
And, -(at the other end of the spectrum as it were) here’s a link to a story where ‘logical and rational’ use of scientific blunders have created a problem that never needed to happen, -had folks been a bit more in touch with ‘innate wisdom’ / common sense, and not heedlessly stuffed farm animals with antibiotics etc, often simply as a ploy to fatten them up (aka: greed).
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/sa/saweb.nsf/89d058cc4dbeb16d80256a73005a2866/5cae3a9c3b4da4b880257305002daadf?OpenDocument
_______________________________
Friendly note to Ron:
I too was once an ardent fan of Zen, but I found ‘the sound of one hand clapping’ a bit too loud for me.
I changed stations, and instead now listen with no-mind to the sound of ‘One Universe Loving’ !
_______________________
The old master, Lao Tse, mentions:
“In this world, there is nothing softer or thinner than water. But to compel the hard and unyielding, it has no equal. That the weak overcomes the strong, that the hard gives way to the gentle — this everyone knows. Yet no one asks accordingly.”
And:
“Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profundity. Kindness in giving creates love.”
_____________________
~ and yes, sorry if I helped overmuch to bifurcate the discussion away from patriotism and into other matters.
Here’s my little mea culpa attempt to try to steer things back in the right direction, - a synthesis of the twain:
(These also from Lao Tse! and directed here towards inane patriotism, which is so often linked to uncivilized military shenanigans):
“He who conquers others is strong; He who conquers himself is mighty. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still.”
“Have a Rice day y’all!”
xx
What happened to Cindy Sheehan’s ‘matriottism’ ?
This is my first comment on Common Dreams and it may be my last. I’ve just read all the comments on Lucinda’s brilliant article and observed how they began at a high level and descended to argument and personal attack. And we wonder why there is no peace in the Middle East? There seems to be a lot of judging and needing to be right, and not as much acceptance of one another or focus on shared goals. Does it matter if someone looks to the stars and another worships a pebble in the stream as long as we can live together in peace? If we represent the opposition to the current regime, then we are in more trouble than I thought. I’ve lived outside the US since 1981 and am admittedly out of touch with daily life in the US, but I found this forum rather discouraging.
How can we focus on shared goals when we are lost in delusion? Consciousness is infinite and demonic worlds are real; that’s where astrology comes from. Zen is not about breaking a board with one whack, spouting peace and love, worshiping pebbles in a stream. It is nothing but a search for truth. We have an affirmative obligation to root out nonsense and to understand that the truth lies beyond words - any belief system is just congealed stupidity. Zen is not a belief system; I believe in nothing, not even the concepts of life and death, subject and object. I apologize for not using language that was strident enough to awaken the deluded. A real Zen master would’ve shattered without mercy the morons who cling to false ideas, because real Zen masters have more love in them than I do.
Samuel Johnson - April 17, 1775
I suggest that a patriot be defined as one who seeks to advance the long term interests of his/her country.
A couple of implications of this definition:
Patriotism is un-Christian to the extent that it involves a loyalty to a particular segment of mankind rather than to mankind as a whole.
Those who sought to prevent the invasion of Iraq are/were more “patriotic” than those who encouraged it.
Why is everyone picking on Ron?
Siouxrose -”And if you think there is no INTELLIGENCE behind the design, you are wrong; and that NEED NOT contradict the theory of evolution.”
you’ve got to be kidding, pseudo science in not science, with statements like the above you lose all credibility, as harsh as you think Ron was you’ve proven him right, Astrology is not science and I’m sick of hearing this claptrap and worse still there are people here defending this rubbish, you are deluded and as dangerous as the religious right.
“I knew I risked a certain reflex in some people by putting HIGHER truth on this site.” of course you would most readers of this site are rational, logical people, “higher truth” what is that supposed to mean, how about you get your head out of the clouds and join the rest of us mere mortals in reality, your arrogance is on par with your president who claims to have God’s telephone number.
It is the religious nuts in the world today that cause all our problems, using irrational superstition to justify inhuman cruelty.
The one thing that gives me hope that the world has a chance is people like Ron, belittle him if you will but he’s not hiding behind some mystical bulls***, the truth is that the governments of the world have decided to spend more money on killing people than anything else, we’re stuck in the dark ages with better tech.
I have perused this site for the past year, thinking that some progression is being made, some of us are becoming civilised, this discussion has brought the integrity of the site down, I won’t be posting anymore, I’m going into a little corner and I’ll be crying for humanity, please enjoy yourselves praying to your invisible God hoping he’ll intervene, in fact hold your breath.
Good Luck Ron.
PS I apologise for being off topic.
This was a good article. I for one am tired of the way the military is strutted out and honored at practically all events. I don’t like seeing the US flag everywhere either. My motto is: Support The Truth. Now I didn’t know that many countries pay the US to have military bases. I read recently that the people in Italy were protesting having another base. The people in South Korea aren’t happy either. If my history is correct, I don’t believe Hawaii desired US occupation and the base at Pearl Harbor.
I find the 4th of July depressing.
Ron: I agree! -truth is essential / crucial. But is there only ONE way to truth? Or could there possibly, ~just possibly, be many viable paths?
“…I apologize for not using language that was strident enough to awaken the deluded.”
Hmmmm ! Yes, that’s certainly STRIDENT [ = shrill, raucous, discordant, braying, harsh] language, ~ but will it actually ‘awaken the deluded’? ~ or will it instead just cause further harmful rifts among co-workers who are, -each in their own way, sincerely seeking a new way forwards?
+++++++++++++++++++++++
And who is to judge themselves more, -or less deluded than another? I’m wondering, (with all due respect), might ego be a little to the fore here?
I may indeed be, -in your eyes- a very ‘deluded’ being, but I am also a very *loved* and basically happy, optimistic being, who is doing his very level best to try to help his fellow beings; -purely because I care a real lot about this planet and it’s many peoples.
Does my supposed ‘delusory’ state prevent me ever achieving those ends? Well, in all truth, this fool seems to find that whatever it is he is, (and howsoever much deluded), -he is often (in reality) still somehow able to help people a little bit, -here and there…
Though admittedly I maybe a complete moron, I’ve actually helped lots of people, and still do, -on a daily basis, -in all sorts of ways via my various professional capacities, eg: -my (now) successful, -but once very much struggling students; or my psychotherapy clients (inc those who are now alive and thriving, -whereas at one time they only sought only to self-harm, or kill themselves) ~etc etc…
These are just simple little facts, but maybe they count for nothing in your eyes Mr Ron?
_________________________
Ron says: “…A real Zen master would’ve shattered without mercy the morons…”
-Er… for my part, such a being, -acting without *mercy*, is not one I’d like to be around! Is he also a ‘master’ of himself, or just others?
I seem to find that MERCY [ = compassion, forgiveness, empathy, understanding ] is often a very scarce ingredient in this world.
Personally, I’d prefer it if there was a lot *more* mercy, and a lot *less* aggression in our world, ~but that’s just a stupid, idiotic moron talking now!
How about the phrase, ‘Live and let live’ ? ~Is that too much to ask?
What about the concept of *TOLERANCE* of others? -Do we not ask (even in our *worst* moments) to be ‘tolerated’ by others? -If so, then why not likewise extend that tolerance to others?
Seemingly, you do not ‘tolerate fools’ gladly Ron, -but have you yourself never been foolish? If not, then you are indeed a *very* rare being!
And what of the biblical aphorism, “First attend to the log in your own eye, before pointing out the speck in your neighbor’s eye”?
Is all that too stupid and moronic? (-genuinely, I do hope not).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“A dream that I dream alone is but only a dream.
But a dream that we dream together is reality.”
(R. Seixas)
“When a man cares he is unafraid.
When he is fair, he leaves enough for others.
When he is humble, he can grow.”
(Lao-Tzu)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With compassion, unity of purpose, and a strong intent to help all sentient beings on their chosen path,
‘a complete Moron’
~ (moreron?)
ldavin says: “…some of us are becoming civilised”
I look forward to that event Idavin, ~ whensoever it occurs!
I for one, was not for a moment ‘attacking’ Mr Ron, -only presenting my own point of view, hopefully I did it without ‘attack’? If not, then I think I failed.
“I’m going into a little corner and I’ll be crying…” ~ shame you won’t be helping / serving your fellow man Idavin, we maybe coulda done with your help…
I again make reference to *toleration*. Why do so many of we little humans (of any political stripe) find it so hard to do that thing? Why emulate the aggression of our mis-leaders, when we could exemplify a new and better way of relating to each other?
I for one won’t ever be “going into a little corner to cry” coz I am committed, -lifelong, to serving my fellow beings, -come what may.
(And I just hope that our friend Idavin doesn’t find a ‘god’ hiding out in that little corner of his!)
If you haven’t already read the fine book “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” by John Perkins I suggest that you do so.
It should awaken you to the fact that it is already too late to do much of anything to prevent the collapse of the system.
Run like hell or dig a deep whole and fill it with bottled water.
Then climb in said hole and settle in for a long, long wait.
I’d like to add one more point. All of you ‘rational’ people who have such venom for everyone with any faith in anything, please remember that the VAST majority of brilliant ’scientific’ minds throughout history have been religious people. That’s right, and not only were they religious, but most of them gained inspiration from their faith that was instrumental in formulating their scientific theories.
Pythagoras was an occultist who laid down the foundations of trigonometry while trying to discover metaphysical truths.
Gallileo: “I refuse to believe that the Creator who endowed me with logic and reason would have me forgo their use” (or something like that, it’s close enough to get the message across)
Newton was into “irrational” theology and numerology.
Einstein: “God does not play dice.”
So really now, pretending (and that’s all it is, an exercise in make-believe) that religious people and religions itself have been nothing but regressive actor throughout history is so disingenuous as to be nothing but raw and misleading propaganda. The contempt you have (and are willing to show) for your fellow humans and their ideas shows that their propaganda has taken it’s proper effect on you. It’s easy to divide and conquer when the people really WANT to be divided up.
Also, your hubris is uninspiring. Please, all of you who are so SURE that you know how everything works, give me this somehow perfect model you have, I’d be interested in finally knowing for sure (as you seem to) how reality works. In particular I’d like an explanation of the emergence of consciousness, and how it interacts with physical reality. It DOES exist you know (convincing me otherwise would be a task on the order of getting me to believe that fire isn’t ACTUALLY hot, personal experience says otherwise) and I know this because, frankly, here I am.
One other observation: The hubris level of those that have decided (and it’s a decision no matter what you think) that they are more ‘enlightened’ than their peers here is so high as to be simply revolting.
A final question: Which one of you is it that has more insight into how the universe works than Einstein again? I have a couple “simple” questions for your “higher” intellect.
I apologise for my earlier rant of intolerance and UN common dreams is right to attack me for giving up, I got sidetracked and entered into an anti-religious tirade, it’s just that the article points out a serious problem with the way our society is going and behaving something needs to be done (sadly, I don’t quite know what), but following on from Ron’s question -
“How can progressives expect to be taken seriously if that kind of extreme ignorance is expressed in these posts?”
with the importance of such topics as the MIC and the raping of he world by the corporations intent on profit, our protests and indignation loses credibility when serious topics are hijacked by ignorance, we cannot continue to water down rational arguements with spirituality and other mumbo jumbo, thesee are serious world shaping events, everytime the supernatural is invoked we take a step backward. We need to progress and to do so we must accept responsibility for our actions and not attribute our actions to some ‘higher’ power, no excuses. The people in power that cause such heartache are just that people and they should be brought to book, praying is not going to work, in a democracy we get to vote, we get to decide, let’s do so. There are 2 candidates for ths US presidency Gravel and Kucinich, how about a change? they so far seem to talk some sense, how about not falling for the pomp and image, vote on the issues, we don’t need a God to set things right we can do it ourselves, let’s start right now and stop being sidetracked into matters that don’t matter.
Thank you UN common dreams for pointing out my irrationality and childishness.
I said to myself that I wouldn’t comment on this but I’m gonna.
RON: as someone nearly as aged as you who has spent most of his life looking at various beliefs and seeking truth I have reached one firm conclusion.
I am not wise enough to discount anyone else’s philosophies.
I have some knowledge of Zen teachings.
And I share your belief that Astrology is probably bogus.
But I cannot prove that and I doubt that you can either.
It is the harshness of your words that bothers me.
If a belief in Astrology makes life more tolerable for some AND harms no one else I fail to see why it has you so worked up.
I personally have a lot of trouble with the idea of “demons” wandering around the world….and as an earlier poster stated perhaps you didn’t mean that in a literal sense.
But I cannot disprove that belief. And it surely doesn’t bother me that someone else might believe that.
If I were you Ron I think I would just lighten up and have a beer with a Zen chaser.
And I CAN prove the existance of beer:).
all the best
God bless you Marshall. I won’t live to see it but when we have people in power who can understand what you are talking about people will be free to realize their true potential.
PLAZA TORO: You say the article by Lucinda Marshall is nothing new; you are correct to so state,(for some.)
Much of the writing is new for me, I’m 71 years old and am only begining to awaken to much of what our government does and has done. Naturally the subject matter of this fine article is obviously nothing new. I perceive the purpose of writing it, was with a hope of reminding us of our past and our present deadly faults. If we the people really believe we are actually in control of our government’s actions and it’s destiny, then we the people are guily of it’s misdeeds. If we fail to vote ___ we are double guilty!
I see where SOME here are very critical of the writings of siouxrose. I’m personally NOT a believer of astrology, but I do enjoy reading the siouxrose comments and have no earthly reason to say, or to assume, that what she believes is wrong. We actually just don’t know do we? Furthermore, she certainly helps one to think about the wrongs being commited by our government, which is us. Remember what Pogo said?
Jeff - I don’t drink. My only regret is that my writing skills are not well-developed enough to demolish the utterly insane thoughts uttered in this thread. If I could think of harsher words, I would use them for the benefit of all sentient beings. Infinite stupidity warrants a scorching response and I just haven’t been able to put one together. However, it is not my job to continually point out the mind-boggling arrogance and breath-taking ignorance of those who tell us the stars determine what happens next in the human world. People who like mental pollution are perfectly free, of course, to continue to pollute their minds by reading astrological rantings. Siouxrose and others of her ilk can continue to pollute these threads with their pseudo-spiritual metaphysical stink because posting here is free and easy. I look forward to her further rantings so that I can sharpen my skills at denouncing foolishness. And for those who think this war of words is off-topic - it isn’t. Honest thinking, not metaphysics, should be at the heart of every post. No one is perfect, but the least we can do is point out absurdity when we encounter it. Siouxrose, I have your best interest in mind. What can I say to shock you out of your wits? If I was a Zen master, I would awaken you from your slumber. Alas! Words fail me. I know there is a Zen master who reads these posts even though he never weighs in. If he decides to, he will first criticize my use of harsh words and then…
Dear ldavin:
-love you dearly!
It takes one sort of person who might rant, rave or insult, but a much stronger sort of soul to ever admit they may have made a mistake, if so doing.
In one sense it matters not who is ‘wrong or right’ here, (I don’t feel I am necessarily ‘right’ in anything, I just have my maybe ‘quirky’ points of view!) - what is perhaps more important is that you obviously have a NOBLE character, and you are a BIG, not a ’small’ person in this respect.
~So let me buy you a BIG beer sometime!
There is but one thing we may now disagree on, -and this is: at no time did I seek to ‘attack’ you dear soul, -(nor anyone else here) and… I’m not sure if I actually found you ‘irrational’, ~ nor did I think of you as being ‘childish’ at any point.
But hey, -we can argue about those little details over a drink!
For all of us little humans, the good thing about being sometimes ‘wrong’ , is that it is a useful learning / starting off place, - whilst the good thing about being always ‘right’ is that you get to be President of the USA and make a complete and utter mess of everything you touch! (((
)))
Stay bright m’dear.
xx
Dear Ron:
Oh dear, I don’t envy you at all, -why all this vehemence towards us good Sir? Are we really *so* very despicable, -just because we happen to hold views dissimilar to your own? Who did we murder, bomb, torture or rape, pray tell?
I do hope you can find peace in yourself, somehow, someway, one day Mr Ron.
I might also (very politely) add that yours is not *actually* the very best advert for the ‘Zen Way’ that I have ever come across, (-Alan Watts, Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki and Trevor Leggett actually appeal a lot more).
Until then, I ought leave you to find a greater measure of light, love and compassion (and depth of tolerance) than that which at present appears to be the case.
Be well brother,
xx
I like this quotation from the conclusion of the article:
“it is time to pledge to end the wanton destruction of the planet . . .”
What good is a great nation amid a collapsed, destroyed world?
Mark Twain once said that patriotism means supporting the nation all the time and the government when it deserved it. The way our government can deserve our support is for it to commit to the UN’s Millenium Goals and end, what the author calls the “wanton destruction of the planet.”
Un c-d:
Alan Watts was not a practitioner of Zen - he was merely a good talker. He never walked the walk. D.T. Suzuki of course is a much better advocate for the Zen way - I am no Zen master. But my purpose has never been to advocate Zen for others to follow. Zen is not a prosletyzing (sp?) religion. I have never heard of Mr. Leggett. If I have come across as angry, so be it. I choose my words carefully for impact and I have a peaceful heart even when I try to rip stupidity to shreds. No one needs to condescendingly wish me well. I left behind praise and blame long ago but I feel sorry for those who are clueless. Vehemence? What vehemence? It’s vehemence to call a spade a spade? And when did I accuse anyone of bombing, etc? I merely denounced foolishness, that’s all. And I wish I could denounce it more forcefully. Injecting astrology into these discussions turns them into trash. May the flat-earthers/astrologists/witches/warlocks/metaphysicians dump their garbage elsewhere.
Siouxrose is a friend of mine. As far as I can tell she is intelligent and kind. You could learn a lot from her Ron.
I’ve often wondered at the government-hating rightwingers’ notions of America. I know people who don’t vote because they hate all politicians and believe it’s all corrupt. Some of them don’t like big businesses. These are Republicans! I wouldn’t have believed it if they had not told me all this themselves.
However, they also believe in “America first.” One of them said that the only people to have died for humanity are Jesus and the American soldier. They believe we are doing good in Iraq. They listen to Fox news and talk radio.
None of this makes any sense at all. Rationality is not the forte of the rightwing mind. But I’ve come to the conclusion that for them, America (like Christianity about which they are equally irrational) is greater than the sum of its parts. It’s the idea of American freedom and democracy that enthralls them, and not its practice.
Great article.
Ron,
If you’re following the Zen Path let me buy you a Magellan GPS with real-time update. I think you need it.
In fact I’m quite sure you’re a charlatan. Nobody with a serious interest in Zen would make a delibrate effort to hurt another’s feelings. (Reread your first post, your many uses of “idiot” and “moron”, etc.) You’re a fake. If you’re a student of Zen, then you must have skipped the standards exam. No Ron left behind? Oh, go sit on a zafu.