Boxer-Kerry Climate Bill Greenwashes Nuclear Power
Bowing to pressure from the pro-nuclear lobby, Senators Boxer and Kerry have included nuclear power into their bill to address climate change. In their proposed legislation, the Senators claim that "nuclear energy is the largest provider of clean, low-carbon, electricity...." Funny we've heard that before. In fact, the bill's nuclear section reads like it was lifted off the Nuclear Energy Institute's (NEI) website, despite its lack of veracity.
Over a decade ago, environmentalists challenged the nuclear industry's propaganda that they were clean and green. As a result, the Better Business Bureau's ( BBB ) National Advertising Division found that the Nuclear Energy Institute's ads falsely claimed that nuclear reactors make power without polluting the air and water or damaging the environment. The BBB said that, "The nuclear industry should stop calling itself 'environmentally clean' and should stop saying it makes power 'without polluting the environment.'" The director of the division said such claims were "unsupportable." The bureau agreed with environmentalists that nuclear fuel is made using electricity from coal plants and that nuclear waste poses a threat to the public health and safety.
The nuclear industry's brazen disregard for the BBB prompted the environmental groups to bring NEI before the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The FTC found that
[B]ecause the discharge of hot water from cooling systems is known to harm the environment, and given the unresolved issues surrounding disposal of radioactive waste, we think that NEI has failed to substantiate its general environmental benefit claim.
Unfortunately those same false claims have now found their way into the legislation offered by Senator's Boxer and Kerry.
Even Andrew Kadak, "Professor of the Practice" at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), has acknowledged that nuclear power contributes CO2 to the environment. In a speech before the American Physical Society entitled "A Renaissance for Nuclear Energy?" Kadak bemoaned the fact that the international community had already rejected nuclear power as a solution to climate change. However, Kadak recognized that:
For many years, nuclear energy, while arguably a -CO2 emitting energy source, has been judged to be unacceptable for reasons of safety, unstable regulatory climate, a lack of a waste disposal solution and, more recently, economics.
If the Senators actually want to abate climate change rather than merely enriching nuclear corporations, we need solutions that are fast, safe and affordable, and that rules out nuclear power. The Congressional Budget Office has already determined that the risk of default on the nuclear loan guarantees congress will supply to the nuclear industry is well above 50%. Is it really the Senator's intent to support the next taxpayer bailout?
Mid American, a subsidiary of Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway, has already conducted their economic due diligence on a new nuclear plant and determined that it does not make economic sense to build. If the "world's greatest investor" will not waste his resources on new nuclear power, perhaps the Senate should listen.
But Warren Buffet's corporation isn't the only one who thinks nuclear power is an economic non-starter. In April, Jon Wellinghoff, the chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, stated that new nuclear and coal plants are not needed. Renewable energy like wind & solar and improvements in energy efficiency will provide enough energy to meet our future energy demands. Wellinghoff concluded that nuclear and coal plants are too expensive.
In June, Moody's Investor Services released their analysis of new nuclear generation and determined that nuclear power was a "bet the farm" risk. Why should the American taxpayer be expected to support such an investment?
The history of nuclear power plant cost overruns that led Forbes magazine to call nuclear power the "largest managerial disaster in business history" is repeating itself with the current generation of nuclear reactors. Last month, the French nuclear giant, Areva announced that they had lost 550 million euros, a 79% drop in their profits, due to construction delays with their reactor in Finland. According to Areva, the 3-billion euro nuclear plant has now accumulated 2.3 billion euros in estimated losses. Does the Senate really want to repeat this fiscal fiasco in the U.S.?
Nuclear power is a deadly and dangerous distraction from real solutions to climate change and our energy needs. Nuclear power is unsafe, uneconomical & unnecessary. Rather than greenwashing nuclear power, Senators Boxer and Kerry should cut the nuclear title from their bill and work to oppose any attempts to support this failed experiment.
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105 Comments so far
Show AllPaying Mammon for the slow, stinking, agonizing death of our children from cancer forever increasing.
harvey wasserman
This is a great piece by Jim Riccio, one of our most important experts on nuclear power. There is simply no place for this obscene failure of a 20th century nightmare. It's time to move on to what really works: increased efficiency (including restored mass transit) conservation and renewables, the Solartopian realities of solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, sustainable bio-fuels, etc.
Nuke power is the ultimate dead end. It needs to be removed from any energy/climate consideration. Visit us at nukefree.org, and let's stop this nuclear insanity once and for all!
Great link. Thanks.
you know my play...all we're doing with this energy, no matter how generated, is turning the living world into toxic electro-crap...electricity drives the development of even more technologies and appliances...we can't afford to generate the energy, or to turn the world into appliances...
people will die without energy? people will die with it, too...along with everything else...
grow food, protect the water, and the rest will out...
I think the realization is coming. Even those in denial mode will have to accept the truth you pointed out. I don't even know if hemp and algae will necessarily do anything. If they don't turn out to meet the guzzlers' demands, then conservation and efficiency will come into play and they'll have to accept it. I guess all this goes to show that too many technologies doesn't really make us happy campers.
What does it matter? In the end, we're all gonna suck up all the oil, gas, coal, and nuclear to the last drop or crumb at all costs? We have hell to pay !
"In the end, we're all gonna suck up all the oil, gas, coal, and nuclear to the last drop or crumb at all costs? "
That doesn't have to happen. We're trying to stop the doomsday scenario from happening. Going nuclear and more drilling won't work. And no, you can't suck them to the last drop. It just gets harder and harder to drill for more when the peak production is reached and then we have to turn to conservation and efficiency to soften the landing.
"In the end" ----- Which end? There is nuclear fuel for at least 10 thousand years. This is longer than the age of civilization and science. There is no doubt that in that time other energy sources will be found. Fusion can practically last forever. If we are that focused on the end, the "solar warming" will evaporate all life on Earth in about a billion years, may be less. Yes, the Sun is getting hotter every day to the tune of 10% in a billion years... Even I don't know how to get out of that one... But don't dig a hole in the ground just yet, all we have to do is to provide our children with sufficient energy, education and peace. They can take it from there...
My understanding is that we have enough available uranium for about 100y, not 10Ky. The rest is speculative in one way or another.
If nuclear fuel for 10000 years, then please explain Peak Uranium.
"Peak Uranium"? Is that a new Hollywood show? The reality is that fast neutron reactors produce nuclear fuel out of abundant uranium-238 or thoruim, only that would get us close to 10K years. Even India is more advanced in this field than the US, due to the prohibitive regulations here. Then there is uranium in sea water, the Japanese already have extraction technology, not as cheap as oil yet, but the energy gain is way larger than what solar panels can do... There is so much uranium in the oceans that it can power us for more than 10K years... We will be paying for oil while India and China sell nuclear plants around the world.
No, that's not a Hollywood show. Here's what I'm talking about
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Peak_uranium
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5060
And I doubt that Thorium is infinite. I'll take nuclear fusion at best if that's any more feasible.
10k years is a projected guess at best. That amount of time is based on how far up the demand for nuclear power goes in the years ahead and there are too many concerns about nuclear power that make me wonder if it will last even 10 years.
Senator Barbara Boxer is one of my top few favorite politicians. But, this takes her down a rung on the pedestal on which I have placed her.
Nuclear power is really very bad. I keep hoping that more Americans will realize this.
This Riccio dude is apparently being well oiled by the oil companies... He didn't even read the bill... He only mentions it once with a single quote... Based on this he goes off foaming about other things he's never read or understood. I see a lot of his supporters displaying similar behavior. Halluburtton loves that kind of people, Bush and Cheney too. The wars are greased by such ignorance...
The really funny thing is... except for some lip service to nuclear energy, there is nothing for it in the bill.
Anything which DOESN'T demonize nuclear power is completely wrong.
Oil or no, there is no place for nuclear power.
It should be the LAST resort of all forms of power.
Nuclear power is simply a non-starter for very simple reasons: it's downsides are catastrophic. Besides it being the most expensive method to produce power per kilowatt, the idea that a decommissioned plant can be kept off limits for the length of time it will take for the radiation to go away is ludicrous (300,000,000 year half life). The waste itself is another gift that will keep on giving for a length of time that is equivalent to at least four stages of human evolution. Thus a values choice comes into it: the welfare of future generations or our current comfort? It would appear as if narcissism has won out.
PERFECT!!
Yes, yes, yes!
Your commentary is wonderful AND it is truthful.
You hit the nail on the head with your phrase, "it's downsides are catastrophic".
Nuclear power is the single worst way to power our needs.
I love it when Thom Hartmann says, on his radio program, that if the ancient Egyptians (when the pyramids were first built) had nuclear power, we, today, would be STILL dealing with the radioactive waste. (The radioactive half-life is THAT lengthy!) This puts things in a better perspective.
I am not thrilled with oil and coal, but even they are better.
Of course, renewable, natural energy such as solar, wind, etc. are best. And with the rise in oil prices, along with rapidly advancing technology (including battery technology), there is no reason that solar and wind cannot be extensively used worldwide.
Anything that has "300,000,000 year half life" is less radioactive that the ground below your feet... "decommissioned plants"? People currently work in fully commissioned plants, radioactivity is no more than the surroundings... "Nuclear waste"? It is small in volume and easy to store, there is more radioactive waste in coal ash and smoke but it's spread around instead of safely stored. There is a technology (currently banned in the US) which can recycle used nuclear fuel for even less amount of waste, allowing to satisfy all energy needs for thousands of years... "it being the most expensive method"? By all accounts, nuclear energy is the cheapest alternative. France is 75% nuclear and they have the cheapest electricity in Europe... Hmmm, it looks like I am conversing with yet another oily wind generator...
Half life is not a measure of how radioactive something is.
Recycled nuclear fuel? That could mean a lot of things, I suppose. What do you mean? What method is this, and how does it work?
It is not small in volume, and contaminates whatever it gets stored with or near. Remember that you have to include the trucks that dispose transport it, the tools and factories and people that have worked with it as waste.
Coal and ash smoke is far, far less radioactive than uranium or even equipment that has been stored nearby.
Power companies discontinued its use in the 1980's not because protesters embarrassed them, but because they feared going broke.
France's electricity is cheap because it is massively subsidized by the government. US electricity is cheap, in part, because these plants are also massively subsidized by the US government (details in my other posts on this page).
Getting your obfuscatory talking points straight from the Nuke industry, eh? Or perhaps you're employed or are interning at a P.R. operation funded by the Nuke business? Or even more unbelievably, a true believer of the propaganda put out by the Nuclear industry...and that would be the most pathetic of all.
Jennifer getting closer to the truth...but really, this is a lot of dancing around a simple fact. NOTHING is going to replace oil, so let's stop pretending there's a magic fix out there. Nuclear, besides the obvious - nuclear waste, duh- takes enormous amounts of energy, causes enormous amounts of C02 emissions in production, takes many many years to build, and requires lots of money (meaning a strong, growth economy) to be viable. We don't have the time, we don't have the money, and we are not again going to have a strong, growth economy (thank god, or we would really be in trouble).
Solar, wind, all the others require lots of fossil energy as well- how do you think they are going to source raw materials, manufacture, ship, install, maintain, replace, etc. all these windmills and solar panels? It ALL requires a lot of CHEAP oil, and cheap oil, my friends, is a thing of the past.
The other alternatives all present similar problems- in fact, I have found that even if ALL the alternatives to oil were somehow magically possible, the most optimistic prediction is that together they could at MOST provide 20% of the energy we now get from oil. Twenty percent- and that's best case scenario.
I sugguest its time to stop dodging the obvious- we all have to learn, quickly, how to use a LOT less energy. Its that simple, and that complicated.
The important issue to to get off COAL as soon as we can.
We can get ourselves off dependence of conventional crude oil by switching to two sources of fuel that can not only replace petroleum but also prove to be environmentally friendly. They are hemp and algae. I would welcome all 50 states to try growing wild algae for producing green crude. Both hemp and algae can be grown in any climate and both can be used to replace crude oil for all our manufacturing needs. Do some research on hemp and algae for fuel and see for yourself.
Sadly, if this bill authorizes nukes, it must be killed.
First it was Algore and Barry, now it's Boxer and Kerry who are Big Nuclear shills. I don't feel comfortable going with nuclear power. This same nuclear power source can be misused for more weaponry when nuclear waste builds up. To my knowledge, it is "cheaper" to use nuclear waste for WMDs than it is to resuse it for energy. And why isn't there any insurance for nuclear? I'm sorry but nuclear power is not the answer.
We would be better off getting rid of Homeowners Association and going solar and wind along with using plant oils for fuel and energy needs.
I agree with you Jenny, on all counts.
Bliss, you're back. I haven't seen you in a while. :)
I'm no expert on nuclear energy but there are already plenty of red flags raised to make me doubt that it's any better than staying oil and coal. I have also heard of Peak Uranium which would be extra disaster. The naysayers say that breeder reactors can be used to process nuclear waste into reusable form but somewhere, it's just not adding up. I hated physics and chemistry in high school and college as it was and squeaked by with Cs. I barely understood anything about nuclear energy back then. I still get a headache trying to make sense of nuclear energy. I worry about the fact that its radioactivity would be more than enough to escalate the already high health care costs.
It was tough enough getting my board of directors to allow leeway for growing a simple veggie garden at my condo even though I was able to get a lot of sympthy from my elderly neighbors who admired the idea and teamed up to give the board of directors a piece of their mind. Getting them to allow for solar panels on one's own windows looks impossible. These HOA annoyances make going green virtually impossible for those of us choosing to live in apartments, condos, or townhouses. :(
P.S.: I think it's getting more clear why Kerry and Boxer went mum on single payer health care. :(
What is the surprise? Pick your issue: mountain top removal, perpetual war, covert air strikes on non combatants, FISA, TARP, appointements of Guethnier, Summers, McChrystal, Clinton, Jackson to EPA, grey wolf taken off endangered species list to accomodate corporate ranching, impeachment off the table, climate change issues pushed into the future, nuclear power, single payer off the table, public option off the table, triggers off the table, rubber stamping troop deployments carte blanch, CEO pay limits off the table.
Wake up!
I did not vote Obama, Kerry, Gore or Clinton. My conscience and soul are still intact.
Conversely, I voted McKinney, Nader three times, and before that other independant or third party.
It is really comical to watch the so called progressives dodge and weave, along with their insufferable whining about the very people they advocated for, and then voted for, stick a phallic like object up their rectum. And like the film Groundhog Day, come back in 4 or 2 years to repeat the same tragic comedy.
It's no coincidence that Kerry and Boxer went totally mum on single payer health care and yet ready to copy Dubya's dirty tricks on going anti-environmental. This is why I don't know whether I am a conservative, progressive, liberal, etc... anymore. I guess we're just lonely principled independents out here. :(
One assumes that the demand side is a constant.
Kerry and Boxer are just acknowledging the truth of our situation. No matter how you slice it, if you wish to cut carbon emissions in the foreseeable future, you MUST include Nuculear in the mix.
"In June, Moody's Investor Services released their analysis of new nuclear generation and determined that nuclear power was a "bet the farm" risk. Why should the American taxpayer be expected to support such an investment?"
Lets be clear and honest about that report. It was based on the opposition of Enviornmentalists and obstructive tactics increasing the cost far past the risk factors worth. It is not inherently too costly.
"Lets be clear and honest about that report. It was based on the opposition of Environmentalists"
Good for the environmentalists they want a healthy environment!!
It is possible to have clean/safe energy without the risk of a major nuclear disaster. Nuclear proponents also have not found a safe and secure way to dispose of nuclear waste.
Doesn't everyone want a healthy enviornment? I was speaking about the cost of building a plant.
"...you MUST include Nuculear in the mix." (sic)
I disagree. Nuclear power will result in just a different kind of pollution.
Solar and wind are the ways forward.
"Lets be clear and honest about that report. It was based on the opposition of Enviornmentalists and obstructive tactics increasing the cost far past the risk factors worth." (sic)
Who else but environmentalists are going to object to nuclear power, especially to federal funding of nuclear power, when most of our nation are sleeping sheep, and of those awake, there are only profiteers and people who worry.
I am not a fan of Nukes nor am I asdvocating going the way of the French....I just can't find a mix that will enable a cut to carbon emissions without it.
Solar and Wind are simply inadequate for our needs, but if they were viable it would be decades to put them in place. My concern is looking at the next 50 years.
The only alternative (I see) which I stated elsewhere is to start producing more oil here.
"Solar and Wind are simply inadequate for our needs..."
Your myth, not mine, but I forgot to add hemp and algae, thx JWVerez.
"The only alternative (I see) which I stated elsewhere is to start producing more oil here."
Gawd.
bardamu has raised some good points, some things I hadn't accounted for.
But if nothing else replaces the need we will have to produce more oil here......I see battery storage of electric energy as a real problem. No energy independence there.
We'll see.
BD, here's some sites for more information on hemp and algae.
Algae for fuel:
http://www.planktos-science.com/Biofuels.html
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/05/making-renewabl/
Hemp for fuel:
http://www.hemp4fuel.com
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/hempfuel.htm
I wouldn't mind turning Texas into an oil-growing state rather than an oil drilling state for what it's worth.
Thank you JW. I think Henry8 needs to study those sights and give us his take on the idea of growing algae and hemp for oil. I feel sorry for Texas. All that oil drilling has turned that state into a wasteland. I'm happy though that not all Texans are falling for the tricks of more oil drilling or more nuclear power plants as sweethearts like you and Bliss Doubt from that state have shown. TX is seriously prone to drought and I doubt nuclear power will help there at all.
I'll have to study up on Hemp, though I doubt it would ever take hold...but I know nopthing about algae.
I am happy to relieve your worries about our State, Texas is anything but a wasteland, oil drilling doesn't really do much actually. We have a beautiful state, you should come down and see it. Where did you ever get the idea it was wasteland?
As I pointed out earlier, Texas is doing something about wind power while most states are giving it lip service. Texas has plenty of power and will continue to have. Its the other parts of the country we worry about.
It's threads like this that make me wish I could read and blog all day.
I see that Jennifer has left her own answer, but I'll surmise that people get the idea that our state is a wasteland because of its environmental record. If Texas were a country it would be something like the fourth most polluted country in the world.
There are references for this assessment. If you want to ask, I'll get them. When Dubya was governor he commissioned this humongous environmental study of the state, and then made everyone who participated scratch their heads, since he didn't seem the least bit interested in the results, or doing anything about the environmental degradation here.
It's been a long time since I lived in Houston, but my friends and relatives who live there say that the water tastes like gasoline. Even the most conservative of them attribute it to the oil drilling industry.
Ah! Houston is a different country!!
"Even the most conservative of them attribute it to the oil drilling industry."
That and the refineries, they are right.
This has been a great thread. Lots of information coming out.
Don't forget we supply most of the gasoline for the country along with La. Ports, trucking, etc for the rest of the country. If we quit, our record would be better than most.
I prefer to forget Dubya was Gov.! He left us with debt, business hooligans and his cherished privitization......*&%^$@)(&*&%$#!!!!!!
I have been to certain parts of Texas and I didn't mean to say all of Texas was a wasteland. I've especially been to Lubbock where my granduncle lives and El Paso where I met my friend who was an employee of my company's business partner company. I have been to some of the big cities in TX but not all. I still look forward to visiting San Antonio. South Texas is especially interesting.
I am aware of the wind power projects going on in TX and yes you put CA to shame there while CA beat TX in public transportation. I think both states should exchange ideas and pass it to other states. MO is piss poor on both PT and wind power so you got me there. :(
But I still cannot believe that you would say that all that oil drilling in TX isn't damaging the state environmentally. Look what happened to Louisiana. After decades of oil drilling, there's more cancer from those chemicals and the land was so weak and vulnerable to hurricanes as Katrina proved.
Maybe I must be like that lady in the movie "Bronco Billy" trying to get used to a different environment sort of. :)
If its only Lubbock and El Paso......wait till you see San Antonio and the Hill Country or my East Texas...georgeous!
I have been to Austin and Dallas too but only a couple of times there. Same for El Paso and that county feels more like it belongs to New Mexico than Texas.
In any case, I'm sure I'll be happy to visit those places you mentioned as soon as I get to take vacation time and my roommate is finally able to make it on his own in life and afford his own apartment after earning now that he has a job after one year of being unemployed and having to live with his uncle.
I grant that we face a period of transition in which not everything we do will be green.
But that argues does not argue for increased oil production, only that we cannot abandon all existing carbon-based or nuclear plants immediately.
Thus, we cannot immediately resolve the problem, but we can -- or could, with will -- immediately move towards resolution.
So I would revise your cautions somewhat: we still have to truck with oil and coal, but less, not more. Continuing operation of existing nuclear power plants over the short term probably constitutes a reasonable compromise, but new construction money and energy should go into existing housing technologies that do not need heating and cooling in sub-zero or 100-degree plus weather.
Technologically, this is far simpler than running a nuclear plant, mining coal, or treating cancer -- the alternatives.
bardamu
"but new construction money and energy should go into existing housing technologies that do not need heating and cooling in sub-zero or 100-degree plus weather.
Technologically, this is far simpler than running a nuclear plant, mining coal, or treating cancer -- the alternatives."
Now you're talking! That makes complete sense. If we are going to subsidize something....that would be worth it. AND create jobs for the time being.
But even doing thast...which they are not....still doesn't account for the shortfall in energy production does it?
But sign me up for your plan to start tomorrow. Everyone wins.
Henry, this is false on a couple counts.
Nuclear power is not profitable unless it is heavily subsidized or poorly regulated. The industry is playing for both. When most of the current spate of US light-water reactors was built, certain emissions were held to be under 100,000 times less lethal than they were eventually found to be. The retrofitting of walls and units for the new requirements was much of what had much of the power industry looking at ruin and preparing to sue each other through the 1980's.
Power companies did not stop the plants because protest shamed them, but because the resulting public awareness led to regulations that threatened to bankrupt the Edisons and Westinghouse and similar giants and mega-giants.
Of course the report was based on the opposition of environmentalists. But being realistic means recognizing that we ARE opposed and will obstruct this. What the report does not seem to recognize, however, is that the workers themselves will sabotage the project, as they have so often in the past.
Why?
It works like this. Power Co builds plant outside of town (let's hope). Workers buy houses near project (the engineers further away than the laborers and generally upwind, BTW; gee, why would that be?) As the project nears completion, people realize that on completion, many if not most of them will be laid off, lose their houses, and have to move.
But "Johnny's in school, Sarah has a crush on the kid down the street, we have friends, we've come to like this place . . ."
Suddenly a dozen bulldozers vanish in the Sonora sands. Structures that had been built start to fail.
This is intrinsic to the design of the plants, which create this and other economic injustices against which people WILL react.
..
Then, the reaction of environmentalists is also inherent in the design of the plant, though presumably unplanned, at least in the early designs.
We react because the plants are inherently unsafe. Are we all always correct in our arguments and criticisms? Of course not, but the main point is unsubtle.
All material in the plants eventually reaches the outside environment, where it is lethal and destructive. Thankfully, engineers, designers, and plant staff usually make this happen slowly. But their success is limited.
Let's leave the likelihood of catastrophic accident aside for the moment: that's mostly a question of one or another city -- horrible, but a lesson that might stick. The deeper problem is that the plants keep on emitting materials far more lethal than do chemical plants for thousands of years after they shut down.
Now, was the expense of waste storage over millennia factored into that report, the expense of cancer treatments for the 35th and 45th generations of exposed humans? Who would calculate that?
But those expenses are already showing up. Every or almost every power company in the US that owns a plant is now suing the Federal government because it promised to assume the cost of taking care of radwaste and has not done so.
So, subsidy of the plants would include the following:
- INSURANCE and catastrophic risk. Plants are only insurable because law exempts the plants from liability from most of the results of accident. The public subsidizes the risk. The "jumpers" who do things like clean out pressure release chambers are hired by contractors whose companies can fold when the cancer bills come due. Those treatments are not in that report, but the public will pay for most of them.
- The public pays the electric company to store the waste.
- The public pays the government to store the waste.
- The public pays the electric companies to pay the trial lawyers to sue the government over the waste.
- The public pays the government lawyer to fight the suit.
- When the company wins, sincie the gov't is indeed massively in violation of contract, the public pays the government to pay the company. Are these proceeds then passed back to the public to cover their earlier expenses? Ho ho ho!
- When the cancer levels in the area downwind of the plant rise in the familiar pattern that matches the dispersal of radioactive elements through the air, does the electric company cover those expenses? So far, no. That again is either private or public subsidy.
Are these factors included in that report?
No, for the most part, they are not. Why? Because corporate executives are not paid to figure out what the public will pay. The question is the cost to industry.
The only way nuclear energy is not a "bet the farm" risk is that the Federal government would presumably bail out the power companies were they to go under, as some nearly did in the mid-1980's.
And then, of course, there's the whole matter of death and disease.
Just one example of how the Governmnet and supporters of Nuclear Power cover up the true costs and that In Ontario.
Ontario had plans to transition towards fully renewable energy sources in the way of Solar, wind and the like and one of the leading manufacturers of Solar cells was based there.
They also decide that rather then build large Plants and then distributing the power from these generators to the public, they would go the decentralized route wherein many smaller generators built all selling excess power into the grid.
It all seems logical then the kibbutz put on it.
They calculate out the cost per KWH to the consumer and deem the Renewable path with many smaller stations to expensive. Some big boys in Industry leaned on them.
They point out that Ontario Hydro currently charges something like 6 cents a KWH to the consumver via Nuclear and there no way Solar or other sources can compete.
The Solar cell company packs up and moves to Germany.
The Government failed to include in their costs the SURCHARGE. Every cosumer in Ontario pays their 6 odd some cents per KWH for power used, then pays a SURCHARGE on their bill.
The Surcharge is to pay the HUGE debt the Nuclear power plants ran up in construction.
I'll respond to only one of your points:
"The deeper problem is that the plants keep on emitting materials far more lethal than do chemical plants for thousands of years after they shut down."
Not true.
There are many non-radioactive chemical agents used or made in the manufacture of ordinary products that are as, or more, carcinogenic and mutagenic, have longer half-lives in the environment and in living organisms, and are far harder to detect at harmful levels, and are manufactured and released into the environment in far greater toxicity-adjusted amounts than radioactive materials. Some POP's have half-lives of effectively infinity.
And ironically, many chemical processes (like burning coal) release more radioactive materials into the atmosphere than a nuclear plant does.
Chemical manufacture has a far worse safety record. Recall Bhopal, farm workers sickened and kiled by pesticide exposure, PFOA (Teflon(tm) precursor) poisoning workers and their families in Parkersburg, West Virginia (have you thrown out all your teflon-coated cookware yet?), refinery explosions... Nothing comparable to this has happened in the commercial nuclear industry.
pjd412
I hope you will continue discussing this, I'm getting some great information here....and I need it!
You're comparing all chemical use to nuclear power use. Bhopal was not a power-plant accident. The problems of all chemical production and use as a whole naturally exceeds those of nuclear power production, at least if one leaves out the matter of nuclear holocaust. However, this is not an apples to apples comparison, since nuclear power will not replace or prevent such chemical use -- though I suppose in a way nuclear holocaust might.
I do not mean to imply that uranium is the most lethal of all chemicals, only that it is more lethal than those used in hydrocarbon-produced energy.
Plutonium, however, must be close to the most lethal of all chemicals. It is involved in only a few plants, but is involved in some.
I see that your points are valid; however, they apply to a separate problem.
Same thought to you bardamu, I hope you will continue discussing this, I'm getting some great information here....and I need it! You two guys keep going.
Great....GREAT post! And thank you.
But I still don't see how we provide for our energy needs and cut carbon emissions without it in the mix.
We add a million people a year through legal immigration. We've got between 18 and 25 million here illegally adding another 3-400,000 per year of citizen births, add in normal births and we hasve quite an impact on needs and resourcesd. so how do we provide for our present energy needs and future needs?
Also keeping in mind that our delivery infrastructure is aging badly.
Saying Wind and Solar are the answer just doesn't add up for the near future, the production just doesn't seem to be there. This is of course based on current tecnology.
So where am I wrong about our ability to produce energy? And I don't for a minute refuse to believe I could be wrong about Nukes in the mix, thats just what added up without increasing carbon emissions.
You're wrong about the potential of even current technology, but you're correct in that compromises will be needed. I'd LOVE to shut down all nuclear and coal plants immediately, for instance, but that would kill a lot of people.
You are correct that we will need to compromise some to get time to retool.
Since rebuilding nuclear technology is particularly expensive, I suspect that a reasonable answer is to shut the plants down gradually as they become less tenable -- as the steam generators rot out with rust, basically.
But to do that will require considerable resources devoted to retooling. The plants get more dangerous with age.
I would particularly welcome input from anyone who has seen these numbers crunched!
Another point I would broadcast is that the idea that Americans "live well" because they spend vast amounts of energy is false. The idea that conservation would primarily require "sacrifice" is ridiculous.
It's like calling the work to fix a leaky gas tank a sacrifice.
"You are correct that we will need to compromise some to get time to retool."
There are a lot of folks thaty will not compromise, the we know best bunch. They are the real stumbling block to getting something done.
"Another point I would broadcast is that the idea that Americans "live well" because they spend vast amounts of energy is false. The idea that conservation would primarily require "sacrifice" is ridiculous."
Absolutely correct. Besides, saving energy saves money and can be a lot of fun figuring out hoew to conserve.
We will need to compromise, but we cannot wait for unanimity, either individually or collectively.
Corporations will do what's profitable under whatever circumstances they find. Governments -- well, governments, phew!
Both need the non-cooperation of an informed and insistent consuming and producing public to guide them by making damaging practices and policies unprofitable and unelectable.
Meanwhile,
as an amateur, I find my first forays into these earth construction things a blast - better than playing in the mud years ago. And I have to say that escaping the rent-or-mortgage shackles would do a lot of souls a lot of good.
I hope to be among them.
Besides the Websites, I have found these books useful for preliminary research.
- The Hand-Sculpted House: A Practical and Philosophical Guide to Building a Cob Cottage: The Real Goods Solar Living Book by Ianto Evans, Michael G. Smith, Linda Smiley, and Deanne Bednar
- The Cob Builders Handbook: You Can Hand-Sculpt Your Own Home by Becky Bee
- Ceramic Houses and Earth Architecture: How to Build Your Own by Nader Khalili
- Emergency Sandbag Shelter and Eco-Village Manual - How to Build Your Own with Superadobe / Earthbag over 700 photos & illustrations by Nader Khalili and Compiled and edited by Iliona Outram
- Khalili's RACING ALONE is inspirational, though with less actual building instruction.
- Earthbag Building: The Tools, Tricks and Techniques (Natural Building Series) by Kaki Hunter and Donald Kiffmeyer
- Earthship I, II, and III, by Michael Reynolds.
- Water from the Sky, by Michael Reynolds.
Hassan Fathy's ARCHITECTURE FOR THE POOR is interesting too, for its analysis of a lot of the backstory and economic dynamic behind the decisions that goof up people and our housing.
Great stuff. Cal-Earth and the Cob Cottage Company, among others, organize classes and apprenticeships. Reynolds and some associates have a community with homes for sale a few minutes outside of Taos.
A lot of Reynolds' methods particularly could be instituted piecemeal by people who will not or cannot adopt all of his distinctive approach. The greywater and sewage systems and their integration with gardens and greenhouse elements are marvels, sophisticated yet understandable and broadly applicable.
I will certainly take a look at these publications...thank you!
"And I have to say that escaping the rent-or-mortgage shackles would do a lot of souls a lot of good."
All I can say is that it is like being freed from prison. We don't have a mortgage and its amazing what it frees you up to do. Many countries don't have mortgages, but they aren't bad to get started with.
Thanks for the list. Check out Hay Bale construction (really straw) its been used even in New Mexico. It has some real advantages in that its less heavy labor. Trty this link....
http://strawbale.sustainablesources.com/
Austin recently approved this method.
We have a 200 gallon barrel buried but connected to our gutters with a little pump that waters our lawn and garden. The pump uses a light bulbs worth of energy. It cut our water bill by 84%. We also added a radiant barrier to the underside of the roof. Works great!
Also take a look at Susanka's site.....
http://www.notsobighouse.com/
She has great ideas about space efficency and techniques for building small, but living large. She's been out front on this. We incorporated some of her ideas in the last Habitat house.
Thanks agin!
I'm on it!
Thank you very much and congratulations! Most impressive!
I think not impressive but its kind of you to say so....I think you will really get some good stuff from those sites.
I added a link for RMI above and Byrd may have slipped away, but his main point was decks and so forth could extend the living area of your house (of course) but also visually. He was a fan of Sailboat design because he said they were weell used to designing for tight spaces and many of their solutions could be used in building small.
Be well!
Great post, thank you.
Thank you for a thorough post.
Are you volunteering to store the waste in your backyard?
Absolutely! (there are safe sites) Its not a matter of waste, its a matter of reality.
As a matter of fact I believe we are doing our part....we just finished and brought on line a billion dollar wind farm. It makes us by far the largest producer of wind power in the US and if we were a nation, the forth larget.
Thers a lot of talk about Green energy, but what is being done? The fact is, like it or not, we simply cannot generate enough energy, even with reductions, through Wind/Solar/Tidal. How much tidal energy is California producing? Not much. Wind power? Ruin the view. Northeast wind power? Ruin the view.
An edit to add a question I put in a reply to Jennifer.... "The best question to ask if I'm wrong is how we'd produce the energy we need?" Wind/Solar/Tidal won't do it, where do we get it. The only alternative I can see is oil which we still have plenty of in the US.
Actually, wind, solar, water, and conservation can work based on technology immediately available.
Industry estimates here have a huge built-in distortion.
Large companies ask the question that interests them, not the one that interests the public. They call green methods inadequate because they cannot use them gainfully.
Here's the most basic distortion, one among many. To run photovoltaic cells or windmills, power companies need to purchase and maintain land to house them. In most contemporary economies, this constitutes a large expense, which the company, naturally, factors in.
However, land with windmills and photovoltaic cells can be farmed, lived on, and driven past. Those of us farming, residing, or in charge of highways can use much of that land at little or no added cost.
Next, demand is not at all fixed. Europeans live nicely - better than Americans, if you can believe the stats - on a bit above 1/4 of per capita American energy use. And, frankly, the Europeans could do better.
The trouble is that this is not primarily a matter of personal decisions alone, but one that requires public or mass action to influence government and corporate decisions.
Government would subsidize public transport and green housing than power plants if it wanted to reduce carbon footprint instead of maximize crony profit.
I'll assume for the moment that the benefits of public transport are obvious.
State and local building codes are badly out of date, and need be changed to accommodate green housing. Earthen houses can eliminate or virtually eliminate the energy used in heating and cooling and produce their own energy for lighting. Many of these houses cost far less than conventional houses to produce.
Google "Cal-Earth," "Michael Reynolds" and "Earthships," and "Cob construction," or "the cob cottage company" for three excellent, affordable, and in at least some cases easily learned techniques.
I lived in a Mexican desert in an adobe house -- that is, a dirt house, no concrete -- with a roof made of metal and mesquite trunks. Outside of the nifty indoor toilet and running water, the total materials and tools cost from an American building supplies store would have run to several hundred dollars. Nearly identical houses at the center of the town had remained occupied continuously since the 1700's. When I asked the residents about repairs, they said that every few years they had to wet the walls, smear mud ("good" mud, with the proper mix of clay) on the places where the water ran by or where the pigs scratched their sides. Thatch roofs had to be changed regularly, metal roofs every few decades.
Check out Reynolds' Earthships. It's amazing to see the snows on the outside of the house in sub-zero temperature in the New Mexico desert, and look through the window to see fruit on the banana tree growing inside.
What am I doing living in a little box inside a big box?
8-10 inches of precipitation per year outside of Taos, and Reynolds has houses that provide their own water and electricity.
And lots of compromises are available.
I would move back to that adobe house in a snap, and I may work out a way to do it.
At Cal-Earth in Hesperia, California, they have all-earthen structures that have passed California earthquake codes. City testers were so suspicious that they continued to apply more and more force until their testing equipment started to come apart.
Existing buildings stand less than 20 miles off the San Andreas Fault. The older ones have seen several earthquakes and have not suffered a crack. They're gorgeous, with beautiful interior curves and arches, gloriously comfortable without AC on 100-degree plus days, and about 1/3 the cost of the buildings around them.
In Oregon and Northern California, people have made not only liveable but quaint and beautiful cob houses with hundreds of dollars of materials (if roofing materials do not grow on the lot, you'd add a few thousands for the roof).
Why dirt cheap? It's dirt, folks - or soil, as I suspect they'd correct me.
People mix soil with the right % of clay and sand with straw, and sculpt the house. There are some details about a base in the soil, and they need broad overhanging roofs in rainy weather, but there are examples of this architecture standing in Wales after hundreds of years.
Children and elderly people, men and women, participate in the construction.
...
So, what do we propose? Is it more practical to build a multi-billion dollar plant that spews radioactivity over everything downstream and downwind because we cannot assemble a line of grandmothers to pat together the proper confection of mud, clay, and straw?
This is not rejected because it's impractical for us; it's rejected because it's unprofitable for Edison, Westinghouse, Bechtel, Halliburton & their fellow travellers.
bardamu
My friend, all I can say is you are posting great stuff today!
Texas is still backward in the area of building codes and the greatest problem is square footage requirements, the refusal of Mother-in law houses and in especially our smaller towns, a proclivity to suspect alternative building materials.
I've helped build compacted earth houses and straw bale construction (younger days) and I know there are many ways to cut energy use. I remember a guy named Charlie Bird that was touting small houses and showed what could be done without looking like a garbage heap. The Rocky Mountain Institute has great ideas still, though they have gone a bit commercial.
"Next, demand is not at all fixed. Europeans live nicely - better than Americans, if you can believe the stats - on a bit above 1/4 of per capita American energy use. And, frankly, the Europeans could do better."
Here we part....its hard to transpose a European mode of living to Texas, the size is far to different and size effects most things. They also have declining populations for the most part. Plus the praise of Europeans is a bit overdone for me. For example, if France is so wonderful, why is their suicide rate so much higher than ours?
Public transport is great, but impractical in many areas, heavily subsidized in others like Amtrak or others systems.
Your description of the little Adobe hose and its livability was great. Thanks.
"This is not rejected because it's impractical for us; it's rejected because it's unprofitable for Edison, Westinghouse, Bechtel, Halliburton & their fellow travelers."
You could easily be right in this area. In Texas its easier to assess the impact of energy needs because we are not connected to the National grid. I need to look up how much we just added to our power with the new windfarm.
Different places, different problems, and I see your point as to transport. However, I'm betting solutions that involve alternate housing and greywater usage will sing in Texas, and we may see more early uptake there than in most other places.
So I will check the Rocky Mtn Institute and Charlie Bird ASAP.
Meanwhile, where have you found codes for earth & bales flexible? Were you able to get clearance or just build on land unlikely to undergo inspection? What kind of obstacles did the gov't boys set you?
I have heard rumors, albeit little informative, of projects in towns outside of Austin, but otherwise I'm in the dark as to how these things are progressing in Texas.
I think it was Charlie Byrd, though he may have slipped into obscurity.
RMI is still thriving. Their home is a labratory in effect. Heres their link in case...http://www.rmi.org/
Except for what you said about suicide rate in France, I'm glad to hear your honest attempts at going green from childhood. :)
The French comment was simply to point out Europe has plenty of problems of her own and does not have all the answers.
Ok, I know Europe has its own issues and yes, some of their economy is fragile. However, I'm worried that our nation's is even worse. Check out this article on Saudi Arabia and China on their recent moves to ditch the US dollar and go euro:
http://www.alternet.org/world/143119
I saw your comment on TX being unable to be like Europe. I only know so much about the state but I have come across other Texans including some on this site such as JWVerez, Bliss Doubt, aussiesdawg, and a few others who imply otherwise. Maybe the state is too large to confirm but why is California at least trying hard despite being as large a state? I will tell you one other thing. It is possible for a lot of states to go the way of Europe as far as public transportation is concerned. It is just that they are systematically being denied the needed funding and some state pols just can't stop playing politics. My state of Misery(MO) is one such example. Every time funding for metro gets cut, the rippling effects are heavier traffic jams 2 weeks later.
Here I would simply point out what California trying to be like Europe in many ways got them. They have an unsustainable government and economy. They are in hock for a minimum of 47 Billion and they are bleeding jobs.
Texas is in good shape, fairly low unemployment, better schools, billions in a rainy day fund, etc...
Trust me on this, they are not going to ditch the dollar for a basket of currancies or the Euro.
Public transportation works for large cities, but it won't get you around our state. And if we had Amtrak service here like in the Northeast, their costs would go way up.
I'd say we are in far better shape than Europe right now, but if some of these policies get passed we won't be. And remember, Europe like China and Japan have a terrible problem with aging demographics and Europe only with illegal immigration, far worse than us.
If CA tried to be like Europe, it's news to me. Bleeding rivers, however, yes indeed.
I would say trying to be unlike Europe, with prop 13 and the Jarvis thing, has a lot to do with the problems. But there's a lot of Europe to be like or unlike.
Am I skew to your point?
I could sort of see where PT might be unsustainable in both rural TX and rural CA. I guess there's more to TX and CA than I have seen. In sharp contrast, PT for the midwestern states such as MO, IL, WI, MN, OH, IN, PA, MI, and the Dakotas could easily be extended into the rurals but there's just a lot of stubbornness and playing politics going on.
I don't know what SA and China are up to but I feel like keeping my fingers crossed still.
As for saying that the US is way better off than Europe, you threw me off there. How can you say that? This nation has the biggest national debt. Spending for military is obscenely high and the most embarrassing elements of the US are relying on outdated gas/energy guzzling technologies and privatized to the worst health care. China I can understand has an unstable economy that crashes on and off thanks to "free" trading and borrowing from her like mad. It scares me as to what China will do to the US when it's done allowing us to borrow. I don't know much about Japan but I love their fuel efficient cars and even went against my parents wishes and bought a Japanese car instead of an American one. God I wished production in this county weren't so bad. Illegal immigration in Europe? Ok, you lost me there.
We have the ability to recover far better than they do. But it can be killed or slip away. Our economy is still much more dynamic. Debt can be paid off, especially with the inflation this administration is trying to induce.
There is a lot of misinformation about our healthcare from every direction...its not as bad as portrayed, but we don't cover everyone. Single Payer would solve that...but too late thanks to Obama/Pelosi.
Europe has their own immigration problems including illegals...who were just dumped from being covered under French health care. Europe, especially Germany is ahead of us in leadership.
Immigration into Europe -
It's basically the same kind of situation as in the States. It's a natural consequence of capitalism and empire:
- Market economies cycle. During fast times for a particular product, $$ from the seat of empire supplants $$ in the colony.
- Then, during slow times for left-handed bacon stretchers or Acme flange-tighteners or whatever, the Empire withdraws investment. However, business in the colony cannot snap back and recover, since people have gone on to other means of survival.
- So, the colonials follow the money. Naturally enough, they get hired: they're working cheap.
Generally the Empire has an ambivalent relationship with them. They are welcome as long as they are unwelcome - that is, as long as they are illegal and can be arrested and harassed enough to keep them from striking and make them effective scabs.
And the government can tax the local employers and employees enough money to keep an army up to break strikes in the colonies to keep their wages down --
At least in theory. But it seems as though that part about "enough money" may need revision. Empires seem to overextend (and I'd go to Chalmers Johnson for an analysis of our most flagrant current example).
Well, for immigrating into Europe, I cannot think of doing that. With what I got and the costs of living so high in Europe, I'm afraid that I would be stripped to the bone had I moved there. I need to find someone who is somewhere in my family tree living in Europe that I can connect to before I think of going there. I'm still afraid that I would be like a lost little girl going there so I think I'll visit Europe at the most but not live there. However, the good aspects of Europe which the US sorely needs could be imported. :)
If you emigrate, do it for adventure, not $ecurity. One can get "to the bone" fast.
The attitude of Europeans towards foreigners resembles that of Americans: some people are wonderful; others are angry, afraid, concerned to not be bothered, prickly.
The most touching things happen mostly off-track.
Were you Senegalese or Algierienne, that balance might be different.
"if you wish to cut carbon emissions in the foreseeable future, you MUST include Nuculear in the mix. "
That is wrong. More fossil fuels and water have to be guzzled just to keep those godforsaken nuke plants running.
Nuclear power is just as damaging to the environment as are fossil fuels.
I believe you will find thats not correct. Water, yes....but thats another thought altogether.
You must include all the factors you can in your estimations, we are not a static nation. Most of the power need estimates are based on a population of 300 million, totally unrealistic.
The best question to ask if I'm wrong is how we'd produce the energy we need?
Instead of asking how much power we need, why don't we first ask ourselves how much power that's being guzzled is not really needed in the first place? Different people use different amounts of power. Even then, it is not as if solar and wind power cannot fulfill the basic and critical needs. If people want more then they'll just have to learn to find ways to conserve and be energy efficient. I have no problem with that.
Conservation and saving energy is certainly part of the answer. And perhaps saving money will lead more people to conserving. Its a shame our government isn't interested in saving energy.
"Its a shame our government isn't interested in saving energy."
The pols love to show up for entertainment on the tubes and fly all over the country like a bunch of flying butt monkeys and all this just to entertain, lie, and mislead ! And then there are pols flying all over the world just to fake their "foreign policy" macho showoff or whatever. I'm glad I didn't do politics as a major. If I could squeak by with Cs in physics and chemistry, they probably got Ds and Fs but could still get a "free" pass !
"like a bunch of flying butt monkeys"
What a great description of those jokers!!!
The war department already has a very good site in southern New Mexico that it uses for its nuclear waste. It is a salt deposit 30 miles wide by 160 miles long. It has been there for 150 million years undisturbed. No ground water has ever passed through it. Salt in pure form has a plasticity, and if you hollow out a space a thousand feet down, the walls close in and become solid again in 15 years. It is very safe and solves the waste problem.Conventional wisdom says no, but look again.
Those in favor of nuclear power always put forth simple answers. Not only is there controversy around whether or not the salt site is safe forever, there is simply too much danger and pollution involved in making nuclear energy, nuclear weapons, nuclear anything.
Those opposing nuclear power have simplistic notions (more like uninformed) of relative risk, nuclear power generation, and fuel cycle. The safety argument has largely been settled with the exemplary safety record of commercial nuclear power (far better than coal-fueled plants) and inherently-safe designs like pebble bed reactors. So, the waste disposal argument increasingly is used, and is wildly exaggerated. The spent fuel from all currently-operating commercial nuclear power plants over their lifetimes could fit on a single football field about 10 feet deep. And yes, I checked the calculation myself.
"The safety argument has largely been settled with the exemplary safety record of commercial nuclear power (far better than coal-fueled plants) and inherently-safe designs like pebble bed reactors."
Sez you, and say the proponents of nuclear power, but for me it is not settled, nor is it settled for any environmentalist or anyone who seriously considers the dangers involved in producing nuclear power or even obtaining the raw materials needed to produce it. I'm not saying that coal powered electricity is better. I am saying that nuclear is not an acceptable replacement for coal energy any more than it is acceptable for the replacement of petroleum based energy.
Federal funding should only be given to the development of safe, sustainable energy such as wind, solar, hemp, algae and whatever else I'm leaving out.
Sioux Rose
BLISS DOUBT: Right on!
BARDAMU: Great posts today!
That "safety record" is not public.
Nuclear power IS clean and relatively safe, if we include in the calculations that combustion-type power is definitely NOT safe, just a slower and more complete form of disaster.
The biggest problem with nukes is not so much that somebody can screw up and cause Chernobyl, but that uranium is in limited supply, so it means disruptive mining.
The "wotta we do with the ex-fuel rods that will remain radioactive for 500 zillion centuries" is a fake problem. They can easily be disposed of: take them out to sea, and drop them overboard at a point of plate subduction (e.g. the one in the Caribbean). Let Earth take care of them -- that's a far easier task for her than dealing with our CO2 generation and tree herbicide.
"Nuclear power IS clean and relatively safe"
That's like the oxymoron term "clean coal".
They can easily be disposed of: take them out to sea, and drop them overboard at a point of plate subduction (e.g. the one in the Caribbean). Let Earth take care of them -- that's a far easier task for her than dealing with our CO2 generation and tree herbicide.
Dah! What then do you think happens to the ocean?
Maybe we could just take the nuclear waste and drop it on some poor third world country.....
"Dah! What then do you think happens to the ocean?"
--------------------------------------
Nothing much. How could it? We're not talking about putting it into a swimming pool. We're talking about storing a few thousand cubic *feet* of hot material in about 1,400,000,000,000,000,000 cubic *meters* of water at a depth of 4-8 KM.
The BG radiation of the ocean has already risen measurably, and will continue to do so from the uranium and plutonium already there.
Do you have a cite? All I can find is this:
J. Radioanalytical and Nuc. Chem.
194/1: July, 1995
Determination of plutonium-239/240 in fish in low-level radioactive Ocean waste Dump Sites
E. J. Baratta1
(1) United States Food and Drug Administration, 01890 Winchester, MA, USA
Abstract There was concern that radioactivity might find its way into the food chain, namely fish, via low-level radioactive waste Ocean Dump Sites. This led the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, in collaboration with other Federal Agencies, to the monitoring and determination of radioactivity in fish samples from these Ocean Dump Sites. The radionuclide thought to be of major concern was plutonium-239/240. These sites were monitored at various periods from 1980. The sites were located off the coasts of New Jersey, California (near San Francisco) and Massachusetts Bay. The fish samples selected were shellfish that inhabited the ocean floor and bottom-feeders.
The levels of activities required sophisticated measuring techniques since for plutonium-239/240, they were below the range. After a radiochemical procedure is used to separate the plutonium, it was measured using solid-state silicon detectors. These are coupled to a computer based multi-channel analyzer system. A plutonium-236 tracer is used to measure the recovery. The levels were found to be at background or in the 10 mBq range.
Mairead, nuclear power is less safe in the long run than in the short run. Waste is not a false problem. The trouble with "let the sea take care of them" is that it does not do so.
25% of sunken cannisters crush and split with the weight of the ocean before they hit bottom.
The rest rust.
The currents flow.
The ocean does not eliminate radioactive waste. It distributes it.
Your point about the mining is well taken. Even those of us against nukes tend to ignore the problems involved with the entire chain of uranium production, from mining to processing to storage and transport to use|abuse in plants and distribution as emissions to its eventual use in so-called "depleted uranium" weapons.
Fuel rods have a mass on the order of lead, I believe. Dropped into an abyssal trench, they're not going to go anywhere. Is there any evidence at all of the ocean distributing solids from a trench? I certainly don't know of any, but perhaps you do?
I think we fail to remember that Earth is already successfully dealing with ALL the uranium in the world. If we drop the fuel rods into the trench, that doesn't represent an additional load on Earth's ability to cope; there's no new uranium being generated, unlike CO2, methane, et al.
Dropping spent rods into the trench in the Caribbean (or the Marianas trench, if we want to be *really* sure) would create an imperceptible change by comparison to the annual dead zone off the mouth of the Mississippi, where in an area the size of the state of New Jersey, every oxygen-dependent creature must flee for its life or die.
Certainly the ocean distributes solids from trenches.
Solids dissolve and mix with water. Would uranium? Well, gold mixes with water, and so does lead. So by following your closest comparison, the answer is a solid Yes.
Moreover, the uranium itself is but a fraction of the problem. It contaminates what it comes in contact with. And what it comes in contact will be distributed by the ocean rather quickly. That includes the water itself, the materials carried in it, the organisms that live by it, the containers, and so on and so forth.
To be more specific about process, water washes away stone, no? We certainly do not have to imagine the sea lifting and tossing entire rods around, possible as that certainly is, to recognize the certainty of the eventual erosion of the materials.
This is a virtual guarantee of millennia of contamination.
There is also the possibility of accumulating a critical mass in any of those areas - just as one cherry possibility. A true full-on explosion would be unlikely even so, but the release of tremendous force and considerable distribution would certainly result.
Of course the uranium previously existed, and though you do not seem to take the enrichment process into account, that process itself accounts for only a small percentage of the total radioactivity from uranium.
However, it does make a difference where the stuff goes. The Marianas and other trenches are deep, but they are not bottomless, not discrete from the rest of the ocean, and not even an ecosystem altogether apart from humans.
The major difference between uranium buried deep in the ground and uranium sunk deep in the ocean is that solid ground is considerably less mobile and dynamic -- less fluid, one might say -- than the ocean.
Nope, the trenches are a no-go even to the agencies that open the plants when they're shut down and blow the emissions over the countryside the better to send workers in to clean the pressurizers.
One of us has a faulty perception here.
The fuel is dangerous because it's a *concentrated* source of radiation. Before it was concentrated, it existed in a natural, more-dispersed state, and was probably not more than mildly dangerous (I can't find a reliable discussion of that issue. I know that radon gas, emitted by granite, is considered a mild issue in New England --it's recommended that people allow an exchange of air between their cellars and the outside rather than sealing everything up tight, but not that they abandon their homes and flee).
In the trench, expired fuel units would indeed be subject to very gradual water abrasion. But that's true for the general case: everything is subject to water abrasion in moving water. Even, as you mention, stone. But just as we don't have the sea throwing up abyssal stone (or anything else) in chunks, we wouldn't have it throwing up bits of fuel units in chunks either. For water to move any substance up out of a trench, the substance has to be tiny enough to go into suspension, which we can be sure is very tiny indeed for any element having significant mass.
There's no scientific support at all for your implicit claim that the water coming in contact with such fuel units would automatically transfer significant toxicity to everything else. If you think I'm wrong about that, do please offer a citation or two.
As to the critical mass argument, the reason the units would go into the trench in the first place is because they'd no longer be capable of sufficient radiation to do work (work is performed by a controlled chain reaction). If their emissions have dropped below the level of use, they're below the level of explosive danger too.
"The Earth: It's Birth and Growth" by Minoru Ozima discusses why disposal of radioactive waste in a deep ocean trench is a bad idea (pp. 103-104). Using the stable interior area of a plate would be better, but still a questionable idea.
catalog.library.ksu.edu.sa/digital/108333.html
The argument appears to be not that such disposal would harm us, or harm ocean life generally, but that each trench has a unique ecosystem that would be harmed in the area of the disposal.
That's a pretty good argument, in my book. I'm definitely in favor of not harming non-human species, especially those above the bug level.
But we're already well along the road to obliterating *ALL* life *EVERYWHERE* in the oceans, including all the trenches. I hope everyone will agree that that's a bigger and more desperate problem?
I'm in total agreement with the idea that we humans must totally reform our way of life, worldwide. We must all, from penthouse to tukhul, change our ways in different ways if we want to stay in business as a species. I really think the evidence for that is just not disputable on any rational basis.
But, as with any life-changing addiction, 'getting off the stuff' (whatever the 'stuff' is in any particular case) is just the first step. It's a sine-qua-non step, but treading on its heels is the need to create a new way of life that is so healthy and satisfying that it makes going back to the dope a non-starter.
How do we get there from here in the shortest possible time at the lowest possible additional cost to Earth? The solution cannot involve the usual 'just say no' counsel of perfection. People are not going to 'just say no' to their current way of life in favor of some handwaved utopian vision for the future.
So how do we get there at the least possible cost in the shortest possible time WITHOUT committing further genocide?
I say nuclear energy is the best interim solution for replacing fossil fuel use, the major but not only task of the industrial world. It probably cannot be any part of a permanent solution, and *certainly* shouldn't be treated as one. But as a bridge, there is no closer or less-costly means (that I'm aware of, anyway).
Plate subduction takes millenia, and the "gunk" on the surface doesn't smoothly dive below the overriding plate.
Why not just dump them in your back yard some moonless night. Same effect for the next 10,000 years.
And almost the same for millennia after: half life = half left.
Let's be careful what we wish our neighbors.