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Is It Better to Be Free in Hell or Pay Taxes in Heaven?
"Anyone who has a lot of information, thinks a lot, and by thinking increases his understanding of a situation will have not less but more trouble coming to a clear decision. To the ignorant, the world looks simple. ...Once we gather a little information, however, we run into trouble. We ... become more acutely aware [of] what we don’t know. This probably explains why we find so few scientists and scholars among politicians. It probably also explains why organizations tend to separate their information -gathering and decision -making branches. ... to provide decision-makers with only the bare outlines of all the available information so that they will not be hobbled by excessive detail when they are obliged to render decisions."
Dietrich Dorner, The Logic of Failure, 1988
Naturally, we Democrats aren’t doing very well at organizing in support of our goals for a better world: we’re Democrats. Democrats are by nature disorganized – largely because we are diverse, independent, curious, thoughtful, skeptical, compassionate toward all and loyal to the wider community. This lack of organization shows that with everyone participating we’ll naturally make good decisions for the good of the whole community. We only need to get the Truth out to those ignorant, misguided others ...
Er ... what about those others?
* * *
We are social creatures, bound together by our dependence on one another. Our young are born helpless, and take years to learn the skills and technologies of living. The fundamental systems that make our lives possible are also social: language, writing, religion, trade, laws, money, governments.
Yet we’ve made ‘socialism’ and ‘socialist’ dirty words. We prefer the idea of ‘community’ – in the abstract. In practice, we’re pretty picky about it, especially when it impinges on our personal freedoms: at present more people seem to be bound together by the notion of "Taxed Enough Already" than by sharing a concern for people without health care.
What constitutes community? Does it include women, poor people, brown people, non-Christians, illegal aliens, gays, socialists, or people who don’t speak English?
Community falters when people believe they shouldn’t have to pay taxes for schools, safety forces, or environmental cleanups. Communities are damaged when people are forced out of their homes by predatory lending practices. There’s little community where children go hungry, or seniors can’t afford medicine. Community is badly skewed when everyone is free to carry a weapon and kill anyone they think threatens their life or well-being, but half the population is not free to terminate pregnancies that threaten their lives or well-being.
Somehow we have to find a way to live between the constraints community imposes on our individual freedoms, and the destruction of community by the pursuit of assorted freedoms, including freedom to exercise authority over facts and reality, to sell insurance and refuse claims, to exploit the resources of the planet.
So far, our efforts at participatory democracy and balancing freedom and community aren’t working. Collectively, we have neither the freedoms nor the communities we need to survive the consequences of our individual and collective actions. Unless we agree on some courses of action on global warming, energy, desertification, population, nuclear weapons, and war, one or another of them will do us in. Even worse, even if we agree, we risk choosing actions that won’t work.
No doubt our society is a mess – a vast cacophony of interests and values, cumbersome and ineffective political and social systems, profit-driven media and communications. We have no broadly shared vison of what a good society would be like, let alone Heaven. Too many of us find our society hellish – not the white men showing up with assault rifles at political meetings (they are having too much fun for Hell) but the poor, the jobless or homeless, and those excluded from the human family.
Martha C. Nussbaum, (in The Clash Within, 2007) has suggested that each of us needs to reconcile in our hearts the respective values of freedom and community: "...the real struggle [of] democracy is within the individual self, between the urge to dominate and defile the other and a willingness to live respectfully on terms of compassion and equality ..." )
That’s only a start. We really need to make democracy work. It’s possible that some effective democratic systems will grow out of the technical revolution in communications – Internet, blogging, text-messaging and all citizen journalism. Democrats, for all their disorganization, look like a better bet for democracy, but not one that presently has much political or emotional appeal.
I take scant comfort in Dorner’s counsel. We as a national community aren’t making good decisions and are now on the cusp of deciding that the Hell of the present system of private health insurance is preferable to any government program, and that the Hell of war, torture and terrorism by poor brown people is best managed by war, torture and terrorism administered by affluent Americans.
Freedom or community? Domination or compassion? NIMBY or neighbors? Guns or taxes?
32 Comments so far
Show All" We as a national community aren’t making good decisions and are now on the cusp of deciding that the Hell of the present system of private health insurance is preferable to any government program, and that the Hell of war, torture and terrorism by poor brown people is best managed by war, torture and terrorism administered by affluent Americans."
This may be the cusp of a decision upon which you rest, Caroline, but it's not mine. Sounds like the war is over and we have lost. Personally, I beieve the powers that have driven this madness are on the cusp of destroying themselves; a result of their own greed and selfisnness.
Nor mine. Let us hope what you say is so, nevergiveup!
Agreed. I had hoped that after the election maybe, just maybe, people would stand up and support Obama and we'd all come to the conclusion that everything had to change right now. Of course that didn't happen. (I didn't really expect it) There's too much dis-information. Too much confusion based upon dis-information. Too much opinion based upon emotion and self interest and not much opinion based upon fact.
Greed has undone us. And "We The People" have let it happen.
If EVERYONE had "stood up and support(ed) Obama" we'd be in an even DEEPER hole than we are. Obama represents bush's 3rd term and I bet that "they" think it is one of the best stunts ever pulled over on the muriKKKans by their elitist massas.
Obama will tote their barge and lift their bale until he is replaced, apparently by a representitve from the other head (Republikkkan) of the 2 headed dragon calling itself the federal government of the united corporations of america in 2012.
Ya wanna fucken democracy? Stop giving corporations equal rights but unequal or non-existent consequences. A large chunk of our "community" has no conscience and no heart to reconcile.
murderous criminals are brashly driving this planet into a sewage of lifelessness, and we are, as it occurs around us, just out of sight and mind, kept working to survive, due to our dependence upon money for our needed resources in this insane, fallacious wonderland where shelter, water and food, even medical compassion, are commodified, and sequestered through violence...
private property must fall...the health of the natural, living world must regain primary prominence in our personal philosophical frameworks...
the horror we're facing isn't a dying economy, it's a dying planet due to our economy...
Global Start Date: September 22, 2012...acoustic, agrarian life...direct individual engagement...let's get those gardens growing!
Yup!
The original libertarians were French Anarchists who hewed to Proudhon's dictum: "Property is theft!".
"Naturally, we Democrats aren’t doing very well at organizing in support of our goals for a better world: we’re Democrats. Democrats are by nature disorganized – largely because we are diverse, independent, curious, thoughtful, skeptical, compassionate toward all and loyal to the wider community."
(Moan!!!) Gimme a break! Arrgh (face in hands)!
I love the title of this piece though! The most succincy one-line retort against the "libertarians" that I've heard.
pjd412 -
John Dean writes in 'Conservatives Without Conscience' that the very nature of the conservative/authoritarian mindset (arrogant "ready" followers unwilling/unable to entertain nuanced arguments if they happen to be contrary to their own ideology) creates a condition rife with mindless followers that toe-the-line --- witness the Republican 'talking points' montages of The Daily and Colbert shows.
He goes on to point out that the Democratic Party is a large identity umbrella and getting these various groups to agree upon one unifying concept is like trying to corral a bunch of cats. One can witness this simply by reading these posts (minus the obvious 'farts' left behind by the occasional conservative post-er).
Not sure why you're disagreeing with the concept, but have a suspicion that your retort will prove my/Ms.Arnold's point.
I don't disagree with the concept, I recognise it as the unalloyed bullshit that it is. And Howard Dean is the biggest bullshitter of all. His complete dissembling nonsense (calling the "public option" single payer) with Amy Goodman a few weeks ago made me want to puke.
So lets see.... diverse, independent, curious, thoughtful, skeptical, compassionate toward all and loyal to the wider community." Well, this description fits a certain Croatian-American congressman from Cleveland, a certain African-Amercian Congresswoman from Oakland, Ca., and maybe a recently-deceased Irish-American Senior senator from Boston. Maybe that Senior senator from West Virginia too. The low-profile congressman from the district next to mine in Pittsburgh might fit this description too.
And that's about it.
The rest of the Democrats are just the bourgeois urban yuppie wing of the corporate party representing the big city-based F.I.R.E. industry. The Republicans are the suburban or rural manufacturing, mining, oil, and big-retail wing of the corporate party. That is the only difference.
FWIW:
That's John Dean, former Nixon counsel who turned against him after Watergate, who now writes legal critiques of high-level political shenanigans. Not Howard Dean.
"We really need to make democracy work." Of course we do. And the best way to make sure we get a fair say, a voice, is to what? Get rid of corporate personhood. Yes, a change we can believe in. That is the only way to get us back on the path of actually allowing the U.S. citizen to have a say in their government. We all know that money talks. But, do we really want it to have the Only voice, as it does now?
To make democracy work we need to begin raising a generation that no longer worships celebrities. A generation of people that does not sacrifice their freedom and family to the predations of a military mindset. A generation who recognizes our intrinsic connections with the earth and begins to come back to its roots to heal. A generation of people that truly understands compassion and empathy, not just of other humans, but also our cousins in the animal world. We need to cultivate a generation of people that shatters the prevalent myth that humans can't think for themselves and are therefore dependent on a benevolent banking elite to run the world for them, by whatever means the banking elite deems necessary. I disagree with the beginning quote, that too much information hinders good legislation. What then, could possibly be the point of this article? Hobbling us with ever more information! No, we put our homework off, until it piles up into a big pile of crap on our desk. Nobody can make sense of that. Anybody else experience how insurmountable the task of catching up is, when it has been neglected for too long? That's our problem now. I believe, that if the truth is given to the people, we are capable of making the right decision. I may be naive, but I've looked at the alternatives to truthfulness, examples in abundance, and I've not been impressed. I posted earlier, this, to another article. The problem to me doesn't seem to be the lack of common sense, but the complete and utter disregard for the truth. Words are just a means to an end now. Our God has become quarterly profits. Show me the history of truthfulness from our corporate CEOs. Our president. A congressman. A military officer. The CIA director. Rush Limbaugh. Wolf Blitzer. O'Reilly. Look into the eyes of Dick Cheney, Richard Pearle, Paul Wolfowitz, David Addington, John Yoo, Alberto Gonzolez, Alan Greenspan, Henry Paulson......Truth? Honesty? Integrity? Wake up folks! If you are tuned in to the "official" news, and science, and medicine, and politics, and corporate advertisements, then common sense did leave the room. But, don't you think it's hard to ask a whole population, who have already voluntarily relinquished their own common sense, to somehow now recognize what common sense is?
The author is asking a group of people who watch Nascar, professional wrestling, Dancing with the Stars, Oprah, violent movies, who pay taxes supporting torture, extraordinary renditions, war crimes, drone bombing of civilians, belief in a vindictive God who will soon come down from the sky and take the believers to heaven, that single payer health care is a government takeover. Do I need to go on? The author is asking a group of people who believe the liars listed above, to have common sense.
I am for the complete abolishment of the idea of corporate personhood. It has no place in a humanistic, science-based culture. It completely distorts the very idea of freedom. Corporations will continue to wield disproportionate power over people, so long as they have the same legal rights as human beings. That to me, is what it is all about. Get rid of the power of corporations, and, I believe, we are halfway back to freedom and equality. A lot of posters here on CD, get it. Sadly, I think, most do not.
By God these Democrats are the closest thing to perfection so far.
"largely because we are diverse, independent, curious, thoughtful, skeptical, compassionate toward all and loyal to the wider community"
Laughable article!
pjd412 had it first, but I couldn't help but say it too. This is why we are losing.
Ms. Arnold's whole reasoning seems incoherent in this piece.
From the title, I thought the "hell" she was going to describe was the brutal dog-eat-dog hell, for all but the very few at the top, that is the ultimate result of the "libertarian" concept of "freedom". But she completely failed to do this. Instead, she presented mindless straw-man arguments. It was left to GWnorth to present the proper argument below (or above, depnding on your settings) via his Mutiny on the Bounty analogy.
Absolutely correct! I love to read ole GW most of the time.
Her reasoning seemed to be along the lines of 2+2=5.
Again I would use the example of Pitcairns Island, where the Individual reigns supreme and there no GOVERNMENT that has power over any of their decisions and contrast that to Men Against the Sea .
In the former the 8 Mutineers along with the Tahitans settle on Pitcairns with the bulk of the resources of the Bounty.
In the latter 19 men are forced at Gunpoint into an open boat with next to no provisions.
Of the 19 one dies of fever several months after reaching sanctuary.
In the former 12 of the 13 men are murdered or die of alcholism in an orgy of violence and concern only for the SELF.
I would also use the example of Shackletons expedition in the Antartic. While there a failure to reach the Pole, the mens sense of COMMUNITY and SHARING never faltered . No one suggested the weaker be left behind to perish.
If we WANT a future for our children we have to recapture the SPIRIT Of community. We have to learn to look out for the other rather then just the self.
Capitalism and the Corporation encourage the opposite. Capitalism rewards greed and bad behaviour. The Corporation is its facilitator.
There were, of course other survivors (you forgot to mention the Tahitian women) or why do descendents of the mutineers still live there?
But your point is well-taken, and and it was out of this crucible that the values of selfish individualism were rejected and a very cooperative society eventually arose. I've always thought that the "Libertarians" need to find an isolated island somewhere to try their idea of non-society. Look like the experiment has already been run.
Though you know I don't agree with you on Capitalism (regulated, not what we have now) but do on Corporatism.........KUDO's on your analogy and your sentiment of
"If we WANT a future for our children we have to recapture the SPIRIT Of community. We have to learn to look out for the other rather then just the self."
Thats the end truth for us all. Without community, without that spirit of sharing hardships as well as rewards, without that inner belief in "us" what do we have except every man for himself which brings defeat and misery.
"Capitalism (regulated, not what we have now)"
Regulated capitalism? You mean hawg-tied on the ground, with my boot to its neck and my gun barrel against its temple? Yes, I like that kind of capitalism too.
I forget which pacific island it is - but it is said in a documentary that it has perhaps the "world's most successful society" ...."because in it there are no morals"...
i found that strange at first -- but then it was explained that the inhabitants did not rely on judgmentalism ...but instead encouraged among themselves , to the best of every individual's ability , a kind of community collaboration to live as peaceful as possible in their environment...and basically ...each individual contributed "what he or she was best at" with no coercion from others and no expectation for personal reward.
the inhabitants say that they would prefer the outside world, especially as tourism and commercialism enters to leave them alone because they are "extremely satisfied" with their way of life. they simply live with what nature gives them .
Naturally, we Democrats aren’t doing very well at organizing in support of our goals for a better world: we’re Democrats. Democrats are by nature disorganized – largely because we are diverse, independent, curious, thoughtful, skeptical, compassionate toward all and loyal to the wider community.
Professional Democrats (not most of the rank and file) are none of these things. What they are, what the Democratic party is, is a totally corrupt bumble bee who is not supposed to be able to fly but somehow does.
As for the cost of living in Hell . . . I recently channeled Robert McNamara to see how he was doing down there. In Hell you are paid and taxed by the day, no exceptions. The contemporary equivalent salary in USA money is 12 cents a day for his sixteen hour a day job of cleaning public toilets with his tongue. But the tax is equivalent to $500 a day. He has yet to be paid but his tax bill plus penalties is skyrocketing by the minute. He said the IRS (Infernal Revenue Service) sends goons out multiple times each day to beat the absolute living shit out of him and warn him if he doesn't pay up he will be reincarnated as a hapless Afghan peasant and sent to Helmand province to be blown to bloody, agonizing bits by a USA cluster bomb.
Re Mordechai Shiblikov August 27th, 2009 1:52 pm
Dante would approve.
I'll be awaiting your channeling when Kissinger and Cheney depart.
Here's my new theory:
Good is boring. Peace is boring. Nice is boring. Honest is boring. Humans - especially Americans - don't do boring well.
Seriously - imagine if all the big problems were solved: climate change controlled, economy solid, universal health care for all, world-class education system, poverty licked...
We would be so bored, we'd start killing each other just for something to do...
We need the drama to survive - that's why we never get much closer than almost to solving the big (and most of the small) stuff...
ah, frank1569...you want to know what we'll do to relieve boredom?
that is what the natural world, marijuana, music and sex are for...
I'll second that. Though nobody should ever be truly bored. It's a world bigger than a lifetime out there.
Fie on Goodness! [excerpt from the musical "Camelot"]:
CHORUS
♬ Fie on goodness, fie!
Fie on goodness, fie!
Eight years of kindness to your neighbor
Making sure that the meek are treated well
Eight years of philanthropic labor
Derry down dell
Damn, but it's hell!
Oh, fie on goodness, fie!
Fie, fie, fie!
It's been depressing all the way (derry down, derry down)
And getting glummer every day (derry down, derry down)
KNIGHT 1
Ah, but to burn a little town or slay a dozen men
Anything to laugh again!
ALL
Oh, fie on goodness, fie!
Fie, fie, fie, fie, fie!... ♬
· Yr Obd't Servant
Well, if you travel across the Atlantic to the parts of the workd where some of your listed probelms are solved, people are anything but bored - they hike, observe nature, climb mountains, fly hang gliders and paragliders, pursue other pastimes from woodworking to ham radio electronics, eat fine food, drink fine wine, go to fine theater and concerts. Most of these activities (especially the outdoor sports and hobbies) are dead or dying in the US because of the problems.
IIRC, pjd412, there used to be a NAME for exactly the kind of activities you've described. What the hell WAS, it, now?...
Oh, yeah, that's right: civilization.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Interesting. My daughter lived in Sweden for awhile and lived comfortably. Everyone there is well taken care of, but she was bored. She moved back to NYC. Being an artist and writer she said she missed the "creative tension" of New York, which she found lacking in Sweden.
"americans don't do boring well".......makes sense in the context you put .
what americans who are "excited" by the opposite of those humane matters DON'T realize is - how to OTHERS -
it is THEY that are boring...BORING americans...devoid largely of imagination beyond what's FED to them by what they call "community" of near-clones whose members THINK they are SO "individual"
but as individuals actually STEP LIKE ROBOTS to the TUNES . boring ones - fed for them by their corporate masters....
most are Uninterested in good or great literature of the world...and much of the heritage of other cultures...UNinterested in anything outside of "ME" and "US AMERICANS"......and for that reason alone - are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring.
i think i am finally beginning to understand my long , but personally chosen suppression of an unease about why I often found americans very uninteresting and shallow...i avoided even admitting it to myself that I had this unease...
but there you go: they are INDEED BORING and given to behavior that is so programmed.
interesting, this boring thing...hah...I've always enjoyed following my own 'brain train', searching for and feeding myself interesting thoughts and seeing where they take me...the electrified, media-fied world, however, makes this incredibly difficult, and forces the brain to think the thoughts broadcast via whichever sliver of the EM spectrum you've purchased (or been outright given)...much of my most enjoyable time in the present is the time without conscious awareness of these man-created and man-distributed signals...all but invariably created and broadcast to sell something...
turn off your tv...take off your shoes...touch the earth with your toes, the plants with your fingers...
while awareness of surrounding events is good, immersion in pseudo-thinking is not...much of what is broadcast is also highly illogical, and downright detrimental, from a psychological and environmental standpoint...
the planet is the primary concern, human society buries this under layer upon layer of other concerns, all purportedly more urgent than the living world, but, in the end, none, really...