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War Room is No Place for Bible Study
A Robert Draper article in Gentleman's Quarterly revealed that some of the top-secret "World Wide Intelligence Briefings" that Rumsfeld provided to Bush were covered with photographs of Americans at war, and captions taken from Scripture. In one, above a huddle of GIs apparently at prayer, is the question famously put by God, "Whom shall I send and who will go for Us?" Over the soldiers is the answer from Isaiah: "Here I am, Lord. Send me." Above a trooper hunched over a machine gun is this promise from Proverbs: "Commit to the Lord, whatever you do, and your plans will succeed." Another cover shows Isaiah-inspired US tanks: "Open the gates that the righteous nation may enter."
Sent by God. Protected by God. Sure to succeed. The righteous nation. A war defined not merely as just, but as holy. Such manifestations are one thing from eccentric religious groups operating on the fringe of the US military, in space guaranteed by freedom of religion. It is another when they show up at the peak of the chain of command - and from inside the intelligence community, which is charged with nothing less than defining the character of America's wars.
Those downplaying the significance of Draper's revelations suggest the wily Rumsfeld was just indulging the born-again commander-in-chief. Others merely blame the Bible-thumping Air Force general who prepared the briefing documents for the secretary of defense. (Once, that general would have been my father, the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. A convinced Catholic, yet he would be appalled and alarmed by this business.)
No matter what the down-players say, Draper's revelation is only the latest of many that show a US military unduly influenced by an extreme kind of Christian evangelicalism.
Why should that appall and alarm? Let me suggest a biblical seven reasons:
- Single-minded religious zealotry bedevils critical thinking, and not just about religion. Military and political thinking suffers when the righteousness of born-again faith leads to self-righteousness. Critical thinking includes a self-criticism of which the "saved" know little.
- Military proselytizers use Jesus to build up "unit cohesion" by eradicating doubt about the mission, the command, and the self. But doubt - the capacity for second thought - is a military leader's best friend. Commanders, especially, need the skill of skepticism - the opposite of true belief.
- Otherworldly religion defining the afterlife as ultimate can undervalue the present life. Religion that looks forward to apocalypse, God's kingdom established by cosmic violence, can help ignite such violence. Armageddon, no mere metaphor now, is the nuclear arsenal.
- Religious fundamentalism affirms ideas apart from the context that produced them, reading the Bible literally or dogma ahistorically. Such a mindset can sponsor military fundamentalism, denying the context from which threats arise - refusing to ask, for example, what prompts so many insurgents to become willing suicides? Missing this, we keep producing more.
- A military that sees itself as divinely commissioned can all too readily act like God in battle - using mortal force from afar, without personal involvement. An Olympian aloofness makes America's new drone weapon the perfect slayer of civilians.
- A bifurcated religious imagination, dividing the world between good and evil, can misread the real character of an "enemy" population, many of whom want no part of war with us.
- The Middle East is the worst place in which to set loose a military force even partly informed by Christian Zionism, seeing the state of Israel as God's instrument for ushering in the Messianic Age - damning Muslims, while defending Jews for the sake of their eventual destruction.
The Pentagon is the wrong place for unbound Christian zealotry, not just because it violates the separation of church and state (and the rights of non-believers in the chain of command), but even more because it is inimical to the prudent use of force. When the history of America's failures in Iraq, and now Afghanistan, is written, expect to find that US military decision-making was made blind by faith.
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200 Comments so far
Show AllTHOU SHALL NOT KILL!
-YHVH, to Moses on Mount Sinai (Torah)
Or "murder" depending on the translation.
But "murder" works in this context as well, as launching unnecessary war is murder. War is obviously unnecessary unless an attack is imminent and war is the only effective means of preventing the attack. And that certainly was not the case with regard to Iraq or Afghanistan.
The manipulative use of primitive philosophical concepts, such as those of Christian fundamentalism, to bamboozle the unsophisticated to convince them to do one's bidding is an old technique of sophisticated predators. The more the little people (those who are not among the economic/political/financial elite) understand that there are an infinite number of possible perspectives and an infinite number of possible solutions to any problem, the more difficult it will be to convince large numbers of them to act against their own interests and perform such evil acts. The predators understand this and do all they can to keep the little people from adopting broader and more sophisticated models of the world in which they live.
"But "murder" works in this context as well"
The context I meant was much more general. Those who choose the "kill" translation often use it as a means to show hypocracy, whereas the "murder" translation leaves the door open to many other sorts of killings.
"Christian fundamentalism"
The Ten Commandments predated Christ, just to remind you.
Not to be hostile or unfriendly in any way, but I do understand that you were referring to the interpretation of that commandment in the general sense, and I am aware that the point is often argued, but I was attempting to shore up the point of the first poster by noting that the distinction should be unimportant in this instance.
And of course I was aware that the Ten Commandments predated the figure "Christ," whether mythical figure or not and regardless of whether the Hebrew account of the origination of the Ten Commandments is accurate in any way. However, my second paragraph was back to referencing the article and the use of fundamentalism in the US military. I suppose I could have been more clear.
"Not to be hostile or unfriendly in any way, "
Thank you for your consideration.
" I was attempting to shore up the point of the first poster "
By simply invoking the commandment, the point of the poster seemed quite general to me, and was appearing to show hypocracy.
Sorry? Come again?
It seemed clear to me that you were trying to demonstrate hypocracy in your original post.
Hypocrisy (correct spelling) by whose standards, Jake? Who appointed you judge?
"Who appointed you judge?"
It was *I* who judged your post. That's how these discussion boards work. If you think there was no intent on your part to show hypocrisy then please explain.
First you need to tell me how I am being hypocritical, then we'll go from there. Fair enough?
I'm sorry I was unclear: It appeared to me that you were trying to demonstrate hypocricy on the part of religious military leaders, like Bush and Rumsfeld, by citing the commandmnet. Clear?
Oh. Gotcha. Well, yeah. I guess I was.
By the way, what's with all the scathing Old Testament scriptures? What was your point with all that? Do you think I should be put to death for committing some unpardonable sin, er something?
It's that kind of violent language that turns me off to the Bible. It's the hypocrisy that turns me off to Christianity. It's all the fighting that turns me off to Religion. It's all the revenge that turns me off to tribalism. It's all the "we rule, they drool" that turns me off to nationalism.
Are we not all brothers and sisters here? Can't we even try to practice the good points in our religious texts, like, "love your enemies and practice kindness toward those who mistreat you"?
Where's the love?
"By the way, what's with all the scathing Old Testament scriptures? What was your point with all that?"
That there are seemingly contradictory things in that suite of books. Of course a fundamentalist will be able to provide an interpretation to remove the contradictions. *shrug*
I'd suggest to you both that if you quote the bible in any instance, given just a bit of time I can find another quote that contradicts yours or gives another answer.
Fundamentalists are just extremists by another name.
Seeming?
From what I observe, fundamentalists don't think for themselves, but instead give you pre-approved "canned" answers. Scholars, on the other hand are more likely to be critical thinkers. Fundamentalist take away the fun and leave you with damentalism.
Moondoggy
Can't disagree
"From what I observe, fundamentalists don't think for themselves, but instead give you pre-approved "canned" answers. "
I have no skin in that game, being not particularly religious.
You brought it up.
No, *you* did with the very first post in response to the article. "Thou shall not kill" you said.
Sioux Rose
MOONDOGGY: I have shared in this forum that the dominant CONCEPT of the Deity emerged at the Transition of Ages between that of Aries (the first born masculine sign, and ruled by Mars, the angry jealous god of war) and Pisces (a Yin, feminine compassionate sign capable of experiencing the vast oneness of all living beings).
The Roman (Age of Aries) penchant for war and power resulting from operations that purposely divided to conquer (people) was never let go of. Instead, all that Jesus came to teach about peace, walking in your neighbor's shoes, turning the other cheek, forgiving was put aside, and the NAME of Jesus was utilized as endorsement of the same old warring behaviors. Now with the rise of the televangelical TV ministries and their networks of music & publishing industries, 50 million have fallne for this idea that killing all = God's will. The astrologer boldy asks, "Which God are you refering to?"
In synopsis, I term this "Mars rules," and it's interesting to realize that the polarity to Mars is the law-based sign of Libra. Laws become meaningless as we are experiencing (in this nation currently) once war is declared. Although aggressive war is defined as THE supreme crime against humanity, in its name we now witness our civil liberties being eviscerated, along with whatever is left in the nation's treasury. And through an elaborate labyrinth of criminals protecting criminals, fig leafs are placed over the intended meaning of statutes to give the ILLUSION of propriety for all the most diabolical and deadly deeds, torture being the most obvious.
A disconnect between the concept of God/Deity and war/enemies would be a great place to start if we wish to defuse the animosity stirred by patriarchal religions at this juncture, even if their greater motive is resource acquisition.
Sioux Rose. You vibrate at such a high frequency that I get dosed every time I read one of your posts. It's like a bong-hit for the soul. I rarely respond to your posts because I feel like a kindergartner sitting at the feet of an ascended master. I just want to bask in your glow for awhile.
Much love and admiration, Moondoggy
Sioux Rose
MOON DOGGY: I'd love to meet you and your circle, smoke a nice one under a fall moon and see what conversations synergy invoked. I have a male friend, kind of a protector, with whom I have gone to off-shore waters once watching a slow eclipse as a school of dolphin came to join us, their silhouettes covered in some kind of glowing plankton like angels of the deep. In any case, thanks to him, I have been able to do Yoga in remote zones under the full moon and stop between postures as concepts come streaming through me. These seem to wait for the synergy of power place, aligned posture, and allowing myself to act as a receptive channel. I believe you are so-endowed. Namaste means I recognize the light/Spirit in you, as I know you do me. Thank you friend. Namaste, indeed!
I do believe we will meet one day sweet sister. Under the circumstances you describe above. Perfect. The image of the dolphins glowing... buzzing again... lost in a field of light, color, image beyond words. We'll talk later.
Off I go to plant sunflowers... Namaste.
Howdy SR...
Have you ever been to a rainbow gathering...?
You sure embody the spirit of one who has...
I have never been to Florida, and don't have any plans to anytime soon...
But you seem to travel for your books...
The Gathering is in New Mexico this year...
And seed camp is happening now... And goes until July 4th...
If you are ever in the Pacific NW, you are welcome to visit me...
Check out my website at... goldenhomedesign.com
Paz, Luz, y Amor...
Sioux Rose
Hi, I never went to a Rainbow Gathering but I would not rule out visiting one, or stopping by your place. I was just in North California in late February, and perhaps will travel out again in late Autumn. I love California, especially around Big Sur!
I grew up in the l960s and that's what you hear. When I go to my high school reunions old friends tell me I haven't changed at all. I am glad to have retained my youthful vigor and enthusiasm for all the ideals that moved us, so many thousands of us, mostly through song and our sense of solidarity as youth seeking a better world, one where war was not even a consideration.
I loved being among the first women to have birth control and choose our own lovers, rather than arranged marriages and only being able to be with an attractive male with a chaperone! I lived in London before I was 20 (as a student in a cool program sponsored by The New School/College of New York), and moved to the Caribbean just out of college. I've lived in a lot of amazing places including Asia and the incredible beauty of this world moves my Spirit. Eveything that's good and beautiful about people is missing from our government's priorities and agenda.
I will check out your website and I admire all of you in this forum who have mastered gardening. I am only learning to develop a green thumb, and often enough it's red from a fire ant bite. This year I had blazing pink Azaleas all around my place, and a vine of Lilac that climbed an old Oak tree. Then the roses opened and I have so many Gardenias (my favorite scented flower), and a jasmine climbing up the carport, and now the giant Magnolia leaves are opening. It's a constant ballet. The fireflies stayed the entire month of April to dazzle the night, and this evening during my bike ride I saw so many deer I would have sworn it was a convention. Plus two armadillos I named Dillard and Lorenzo. And when I take my dog for a ride when we pass cattle ranches or horses I say, "Largers! Largers!" and he zaps from one window look-out to another gazing at these huge 4-legged creatures. Creator gave us so much. I can't believe how it's all being treated... if being with the Rainbows would reinforce the sense of connecting to others through Light, I suppose it will rekindle the memories of Woodstock Nation.
Hi SR, not St. Thomas by chance?
I lived there for three years.
The only thing prettier than the island
was the people. I used to jog in florida
and armadillos would too.
So you might be in Northern California
in late Autumn, that would be harvest
season....if your protector friend was
with you and I knew it was the real SR,
mayhap I could show you two the Color
Cola Ridge....i wold be most honored.
Last year a windstorm in our area on October
27th caused bud to rain from the skies for two days.
The Northern California Republic.
Sioux Rose
AZ: I lived in Puerto Rico for 8 years, and visited St. Thomas (too commercial for my tastes).
The "protector" spend a few weeks in Hawaii camped out in a state park on the garden island, and he said pacalolo pretty much rained down his way, too.
The "real" me isn't that hard to prove given I have my photograph accompanying magazine columns. In any case, once Moon Dance is hot off the press, I do plan to travel to promote this book and conduct workshops in accord with its unique topic.
Though stars, their power, I cannot fathom-it is like trying to touch God for me, I am a Lunaphile. She has long been my female friend, with whom I dance. And my lunaphile heart wishes Moon Dance a warm welcome. joe.
Sioux Rose
Joe: How lovely and poetic! This one is a keeper! Gracias! I hope to do workshops on this topic for it shows people (primarily women) why their moods alter, these shifts are not haphazard and Ms. Rose has the lunar map to the madness. The goal? Get 'em off the anti-depressants. I think there is a clear relationship between people taking drugs to anesthetize their justifiable angst, and not enough political will on the part of citizens to demand and act for meaningful change.
Again, lovely lyrics!
Sioux Rose, in my late teens/early twenties I studied astrology for awhile, and you've got me confused. I don't remember the signs being broken down by gender, only by element. While I understand what you're saying about Mars and Aries, I don't get how Pisces can be a "yin." Isn't its ruling planet Neptune, another masculine god? Is the gender of the sign determined by the element or the ruling planet? If I were to guess I would say the earth and water signs are the feminine and the fire and air masculine. Is that right?
Sioux Rose
HELENA: That is correct. I just finished a book I spent more than a decade on that unites the most dominant story/persona from myth with each sign. While Neptune is the traditional ruler of Pisces, since it's a dual sign, I assign Aphrodite, as the Venus (she's exalted in Pisces) dimension to this sign of potential "higher love," i.e. the capacity for communion (dissolution of the ego) with all that is.
I already have my critics in the scientific realm, but Moon Dance: The Feminine Dimensions of Time will win me some critics among the very traditional astrological crowd. One thing that's important to recognize is that Vedic astrologers are known to make very sound predictions, and their entire system is based on turning the entire dial back by 22 (nearly a full sign) degrees. I happen to HATE my Vedic chart, but I realize that much can be understood through it. The paradox of these different systems EACH echoing significant data makes astrology seem bogus to some. To me, our entire universe is the work of great and grand designs. Therefore any system we use will provide feedback of THAT design. Tarot can be profound, as can the I ching (it really impressed Carl Jung). Any oracle acts as a mirror to the soul while also reflecting some Truth about Creation if the querent comes with an open mind and fairly clean soul.
kivals
I would point out to you that killing an enemy in battle is not murder. If you are facing a soldier that is trying to kill you, its not murder to kill to save your own life or the lives of your brothers.
"If thine enemy strikes you on the right cheek, offer him the left cheek also."
-Jesus of Nazareth
"Blessed are the peace makers, for they shall be called the children of the most high God."
-Jesus of Nazareth
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
-Jesus of Nazareth (while suffering capital punishment)
Shall I continue?
Moondoggy
Its irrelevant to the point don't you think? Would you commit suicide by allowing the enemy soldier to kill you? Would you allow them to kill your brothers because you didn't act?
I would offer that the above that you quoted should certainly be used before engaging in a war.
I posted this one recently, so excuse the repeat. But I was in Denver recently visiting my step-son and family. He is an ex-Marine Sargent, now a Veterinary Technician. I asked him, If Denver was attacked and occupied by an enemy force, would you stay here and defend your home and family? I was surprised by his answer. He said, "I would move my family somewhere where their isn't a war going on."
Do you believe in God, Thomas More? Do you believe that when you die, you go to heaven, to be with God? If so, then why would you kill someone else to save your own life? Does not the Bible also say, "'Vengeance is mine', thus says The Lord"?
I'm not writing to defend religion, or the Bible, nor belief in God. I'm just wondering how big someone's faith in their stated belief if they engage in acts of killing, murder or war (the lines between which are fuzzy). If you believe in God (as in the Bible, Koran or Torah) then that God (according to your belief) will smite thine enemies.
So all we need to do here is go no further than the first commandment, and that is to "Love the Lord thy God and put no other gods before Me". Right? Oh ye of little faith.
And again, to quote Jesus, "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself."
Where's the love?
Moondoggy
"I was surprised by his answer. He said, "I would move my family somewhere where their isn't a war going on."
I can tell you I'm not surprised by his answer.
"Do you believe in God, Thomas More? Do you believe that when you die, you go to heaven, to be with God? If so, then why would you kill someone else to save your own life? Does not the Bible also say, "'Vengeance is mine', thus says The Lord"?"
I do actually. I hope to go to heaven, I try to do my best, He will judge if I have been sucessful or not. First...I am forbidden to commit suicide, next I'm too cowardly to allow someone to kill me, lastly, killing in war has nothing to do with vengeance.
The Christian faith does not forbid killing in fact calls for it in certain instances. Nor is it a faith that demands you be a coward or a floor mat for bullies.
There is nothing fuzzy at all about the difference between killing and murder, especially in war. Its quite clear. I'd suggest you again discuss this with your step son who I suspect has seen some combat from his answer, he'll know the difference.
If you understand the Bible in its meaning you will understand that the Lord could very well be "smiting" your enemies through you. However, having spoken to various prisoners at times and reading reports from other times, its obvious each side beieves God is on their side...the "right side" My own opinion is that war is a creation of Man, regretted by God.
I try to follow the commandments as well as I can and so far I think God thinks well of me. I don't lie, cheat or steal, I honor my father and mother, I treat everyone the same and extend the same respect to everyone till I find its undeserved, I would never commit murder and I hold no other God before him, but respect others religions (or none) as my own. Heck...I'm just a paragon of virtue.(LOL) I try my best, its all I can do. All I can say to you is that my faith is very strong and it helped me come home.
If my neighbor is trying his best to kill me I found it hard to love him and had to use the "do unto others"
Faced with the same decision, what would be your answer?
"Understand the Bible in it's meaning", Thomas More? Can anyone alive today really understand the Bible in it's meaning? I'm sure there are many who will boastfully make that claim. But put them in a room together and you'll rarely find them agreeing on anything.
The Bible is a collection of grossly edited and mistranslated ancient manuscripts written in several different languages over a vast period of time. They were not even bound into a single text until the Roman government under emperor Constantine, an atheist, put together the council of Nicaea in the 4th century.
There was vastly more that could have been included, but it was deemed too mystical and esoteric. The information was decidedly self-empowering. They took away any reference to women in places of authority. Anyone found with the original non-canonical manuscripts were put to death.
The approved text, now in Latin, was kept out of the hands of the public and not translated into English until 398 years ago.
You took "Do unto others" out of context, Thomas More. The Full statement is: "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you". Would you have others harass, threaten or kill you? Of course not. You would have them practice kindness, shower you with compliments, help you in your time of need?
I think this is how we should be relating to one another. Not with insults, derision, ridicule, threats, thievery, murder, etc.
And does The Lord need to smite "our enemies" through us? Is not The Lord all-powerful? Can't The Lord call down fire from heaven and burn "your enemies"? Or command the earth to open up and swallow your "enemies"? Stories like that are all through the Old Testament (I've actually read it cover to cover several times).
Myself, I don't believe in enemies. Only brothers and sisters who have lost their way. As soon as you refer to someone else as your enemy, you separate yourself. We are all one. All of us are "God's" children. And that is not limited to humans. God's children include all of life.
Read Jesus' prayer of "oneness" in John chapter 17. Peace bro!!..
Sioux Rose
MOON DOGGY: Right on! You OWN the spirit of truth! Let those who don't get it argue among themselves about the tenses of verbs.
Moondoggy
"You took "Do unto others" out of context,"
Point taken my friend. Religion, no matter whose is simply a belief in something. I personally believe in the teachings I was brought up with. They seem to me to be a very good path through life and espouse the right things. The 10 commandments are good enough when you get right down to it.
To me its very personal and I'm not a church goer as I found the churches I did atytend very judgemental and rejecting the people I thought we were supposed top be welcoming.
As to "smiting" I believe the Lord is a bit too busy to oversee each persons development and decisions. I look at us as a work in progress. I mentioned that to highlight the very possibility....but I don't believe that.
This is something that every person must decide for themselves and I have. Anyone else is free to do the same or not or to reach other conclusions about God, no matter the name he carries. I don't believe Jesus/God or Allah or any others are any different. One God....many people.
I admire your attitude in the last paragraph and I have no enemies, unfortunately we have enemies that would gladly dismember us and I don't mean the cheap "terroist" rhetoric of the cowards like Cheney. Its just a fact of life.
John chapter 17.....peace indeed my brother. And may none of our kids be sent out again.
Amen to that, brotha.
Salaam, shalom, shanti, vrede, paz, pax, pace, peace!!..
The Bible's meaning.
God in his wisdom provided that within the acronym for Bible.
Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth
Elucidated by his Son in The Sermon On The Mount.
Moondoggy, wanna come to a harvest party? You can
get a "script," in 10 minutes and buy a couple pounds of
pot for medicinal personal use legally. hehehe
We are just having too much fun out here.
I would be delighted to come to your harvest party, brother Joe. Shall I bring my favorite trimming scissors? I have some fun stories for you, but this is not the time or place to share them. I'll save it for another time. I would like to talk with you and Sioux Rose somewhere more private than here on the public domain. I can be reached at birdfrog@wildmail.com. Identify yourself in the subject bar and say something that lets me know I'm really talking to you. We value our privacy, and respect others. We are planning to come to California in November. Would love to visit. And if you're ever in Montana, we'd love to have you as our guest. Peace!!..
Md., Yes on the scissors! Communicating under the stars does have it's upsides. Yes, SR & GM. That would be one scintillating, sparking and sparkling bouquet of conversating.
The Lord would drop by.
Let's get together a small group of us. I know the perfect place where we can meet out on the lost coast. We're planning a trip out that way in the fall. Rendezvous under the stars would be a treat. Or come on up to Montana (summer). You, SR and GM for sure and your partners and chillens. Bring musical instruments and be prepared to camp out. We'll share the pipe in sacred ceremony by the fire, under the stars, next to the river on our place, or by the big blue Pacific Ocean. Yeah?
Sounds good to me...
I will be passing through California on the way to the rainbow June 23 or 24th...
But I would be willing to make another trip some other time as well...
We could always rondevous at Montana camp in New Mexico this year...
I have noticed that long words get cut off when a thread is replied to too many times... So I can't read what Joe & SR have written...
Perhaps we can move it to a new thread when that happens...?
Reply to any post near the top of the page...? Somewhere we can see it...?
And leave a clue too...
Thanks & praises...
MD,
Auras coalescing. We bad! Starlight and Moonlumens and the best mota in the world. Oh, how we suffer!
Yes on the six-string and shared thoughts, I'll email ya w/ my # and a pic of me and my mutt. He is the one on the right.
"Shall I continue?"
Perhaps you shouldn't have started:
"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
"You should not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces." (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
Wow Jakey......violent little book isn't it?
Moondoggy's examples came from the J-man himself. Yours from the Old Testament.
When there is such disagreement, should a *Christ*ian lean toward Jesus or the old desert tribesmen?