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TechnoratiMassive Police Raids on Suspected Protestors in Minneapolis
Protesters here in Minneapolis have been targeted by a series of highly intimidating, sweeping police raids across the city, involving teams of 25-30 officers in riot gear, with semi-automatic weapons drawn, entering homes of those suspected of planning protests, handcuffing and forcing them to lay on the floor, while law enforcement officers searched the homes, seizing computers, journals, and political pamphlets. Last night, members of the St. Paul police department and the Ramsey County sheriff's department handcuffed, photographed and detained dozens of people meeting at a public venue to plan a demonstration, charging them with no crime other than "fire code violations," and early this morning, the Sheriff's department sent teams of officers into at least four Minneapolis area homes where suspected protesters were staying.
Jane Hamsher and I were at two of those homes this morning -- one which had just been raided and one which was in the process of being raided. Each of the raided houses is known by neighbors as a "hippie house," where 5-10 college-aged individuals live in a communal setting, and everyone we spoke with said that there had never been any problems of any kind in those houses, that they were filled with "peaceful kids" who are politically active but entirely unthreatening and friendly. Posted below is the video of the scene, including various interviews, which convey a very clear sense of what is actually going on here.In the house that had just been raided, those inside described how a team of roughly 25 officers had barged into their homes with masks and black swat gear, holding large semi-automatic rifles, and ordered them to lie on the floor, where they were handcuffed and ordered not to move. The officers refused to state why they were there and, until the very end, refused to show whether they had a search warrant. They were forced to remain on the floor for 45 minutes while the officers took away the laptops, computers, individual journals, and political materials kept in the house. One of the individuals renting the house, an 18-year-old woman, was extremely shaken as she and others described how the officers were deliberately making intimidating statements such as "Do you have Terminator ready?" as they lay on the floor in handcuffs. The 10 or so individuals in the house all said that though they found the experience very jarring, they still intended to protest against the GOP Convention, and several said that being subjected to raids of that sort made them more emboldened than ever to do so.
Several of those who were arrested are being represented by Bruce Nestor, the President of the Minnesota chapter of the National Lawyers' Guild. Nestor said that last night's raid involved a meeting of a group calling itself the "RNC Welcoming Committee", and that this morning's raids appeared to target members of "Food Not Bombs," which he described as an anti-war, anti-authoritarian protest group. There was not a single act of violence or illegality that has taken place, Nestor said. Instead, the raids were purely anticipatory in nature, and clearly designed to frighten people contemplating taking part in any unauthorized protests.Nestor indicated that only 2 or 3 of the 50 individuals who were handcuffed this morning at the 2 houses were actually arrested and charged with a crime, and the crime they were charged with is "conspiracy to commit riot." Nestor, who has practiced law in Minnesota for many years, said that he had never before heard of that statute being used for anything, and that its parameters are so self-evidently vague, designed to allow pre-emeptive arrests of those who are peacefully protesting, that it is almost certainly unconstitutional, though because it had never been invoked (until now), its constitutionality had not been tested.
There is clearly an intent on the part of law enforcement authorities here to engage in extreme and highly intimidating raids against those who are planning to protest the Convention. The DNC in Denver was the site of several quite ugly incidents where law enforcement acted on behalf of Democratic Party officials and the corporate elite that funded the Convention to keep the media and protesters from doing anything remotely off-script. But the massive and plainly excessive preemptive police raids in Minnesota are of a different order altogether. Targeting people with automatic-weapons-carrying SWAT teams and mass raids in their homes, who are suspected of nothing more than planning dissident political protests at a political convention and who have engaged in no illegal activity whatsoever, is about as redolent of the worst tactics of a police state as can be imagined.UPDATE: Here is the first of the videos, from the house that had just been raided:
Jane Hamsher has more here, and The Minnesota Independent has a report on another one of the raided houses, here.
UPDATE II: Here is the video we took from the second house as the raid was occurring. We were barred from entering but spoke with neighbors outside as well as with Bruce Nestor, the President of the Minnesota Lawyer's Guild, regarding these raids:
Over at FDL, Lindsay Beyerstein spoke with the property owner whose house -- the fourth one we now know of -- was being raided while the raid was in progress, and Lindsay has details here ("About an hour and a half ago 20 to 30 heavily armed police officers surrounded the house. One of my roommates said 'I want to see a warrant' and she was immediately detained"). Meanwhile, Indy Media of Twin Cities -- an association of independent journalists in the area -- just told me that several of their journalists have been detained while trying to cover these raids. Their site, with ongoing updates, is here.
The Uptake also has several reports of the various raids, including video of the raid at the property whose owner Bernstein spoke with as the raid occurred. That video includes an interview with a lawyer from the National Lawyer's Guild who was detained and put in handcufffs, explaining that the surrounded house is one where various journalists are staying. Additionally, a photojournalist with Democracy Now was detained at that house as well. So, both journalists and lawyers -- in addition to protesters -- have been detained and arrested even though not a single violent or criminal act has occurred.
UPDATE III: FDL has the transcript of part of my discussion about these raids with the National Lawyer Guild's Minnesota President -- here.
The Uptake has this amazing video interview with the Democracy Now producer who was detained today. As the DN producer explains, she was present at a meeting of a group called "I-Witness" -- which videotaped police behavior at the 2004 GOP Convention in New York and helped get charges dismissed against hundreds of protesters who were arrested. The police surrounded the St. Paul house where they were meeting even though they had no warrant, told them that anyone who exited the house would be arrested, and then -- even though they finally, after several hours, obtained a warrant only for the house next door -- basically broke into the house, pointed weapons at everyone inside, handcuffed them, searched the house, and then left. Here is a blog post from one of the members of I-Witness asking for help during the time when they were forced to stay inside the house (see the second post -- it reads like a note from a hostage crying out for help). This is truly repugnant, extreme police behavior designed to intimidate protesters, police critics and others, and it ought to infuriate anyone and everyone who cares about basic liberties.
133 Comments so far
Show AllNow they are after independent, non-corporate media...
http://www.alternet.org/rights/97110/rnc_raids_have_been_targeting_video_activists_/
When are you people ging to stop sitting on your asses?
Damn it, YOU, as a whole OUTNUMBER the politicians AND the police. March en mass, AND DEMAND AN END TO THIS EROSION OF YOUR FREEDOMS!
Walk in peace.
They've just gone too far, … … …
Now they're targeting _ V E G A N S _ ( from URL above ):
___"Moles Wanted," about the recruitment efforts by the task force --
___ specifically, attempts to enlist people to "attend 'vegan potlucks'
___ throughout the Twin Cities and rub shoulders with RNC protesters"
Namaste
Obama and the Dems give us our "choice" of wars;
McCain and the Fascists give us "choices" of continuous wars (terrorism/drugs)
Both false choices.
Re=register as non-partisan voters NOW and scare the heck out of both parities!
Good idea. That might make a difference.
Obama and the Dems give us our "choice" of wars;
McCain and the Fascists give us "choices" of continuous wars (terrorism/drugs)
Both false choices.
Re=register as non-partisan voters NOW and scare the heck out of both parities!
Here we go.
Now even RC nuns are being rounded up and black bagged into unmarked vans.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/rights/97077
How long before they come for you?
Walk in peace.
Read the Patriot Act,one and two,
They can do what ever they want.
We do not have a functioning constitution.
I have been commenting on this web site for a year,. telling people my story of 24/7 warrant less surveillance and the attempt by local community watch groups using cointell pro tactics under the supervision of the IAFF and local law enforcement at destroying my life.
Its happening all over this country.We now live in a Police state with 1 in every 25 Americans becoming a government spy.
Can you say Stazi Police.
You should, the DHS hired Marcus Wolfe, x-stazi police chief of East Berlin, as a consultant 2004-5.
Do you think a Man like that cares about your Constitutional rights, or religion.
So, why was he a DHS consultant?
BornFreeMen
Terrifying...there are 750,000 "suspected terrorists" now, anmd the list of "Questionable Citizens and Groups" is even longer--this is why it was so GD impt to us that the DNC GET FISA RIGHT thsi time! They sold out to let AT&T sponsor their convetniton and they should be ashamed. Now, al Dem loyalist--jump on my ass!
It is disconcerting. My sister and I have been on our cell phones all week trying to figure out if we are going to the peace rally today, our conversations have mainly been about whether if we are/were arrested we can handle the blow to our jobs or our families. This is how fascism starts, and it suddenly struck me this week, that our family is so close to financial ruin that the fear of speaking my mind weighs heavily against my pursuit of peace and freedom. Not to mention the fear of who was legally listening in on my cell phone calls ! (Thanks also to Obama!)
Yeah Obama blew that one. Look, we can't give in to fear. Think what would happen if enough people got out there willing to put everything on the line---this whole fascist push would end overnight. It might be our only chance. And if you do get arrested, don't plead to a lesser charge---it's just what they want. If you hold out and insist on a trial by jury you most likely will win, if they don't drop all charges first. They usually drop the case before it comes to that.
First they arrested the protestors in the streets. I wasn't there, so I didn't concern myself.
Then they came for the protestors in they meeting places..I wasn't there, so I didn't concern myself.
Then they started arresting some before the protests and locking them up. Those they consider might be a threat..I wasn't one, so I didn't concern myself.
One day the government was talking going to war again, and I wondered where are the war protestors?
Jerkoff is a 100% commie IMHO! He operates in direct violation of the constitution and esp; the Bill of Rights.
What a Orwellian Nightmare police state you've created Mr. Wizard!
There's more freedom in Honk Kong than there is in the United States now.
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Uphold the constitution and protect it from all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.... ring a bell?
St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman claims that Molotov cocktails were found in one of the raids. If it's true, this would obviously change the complexion of the story.
Jacob Freeze
According to Green Party protest organizer on C-SPAN this AM, the bomb thing is a lie (do these people really strike you as people who BOMB? Religious radicals take care of that) and teh "buckets of urine" they were "goin gto throw" were there --it waqs water, because it was an old house and toilets erw hard to flush--I've ben there!
CBS reported Coleman's claim here.
Jacob Freeze
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
To biwee: The Goering quote I think you are looking for is from an interview conducted with Hermann Goering in his jail cell by Gustave Gilber, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist who was granted access by the Allies to all the Nazi prisoners being held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilber later published a book about his observations and conversations with these prisoners called the Nuremberg Diary in which this quote is published.
The complete exchange from the interview made on 18 April, 1946 is as follows:
GILBER: I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.
GOERING: "Why, of course, the PEOPLE don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best thing that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the LEADERS of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship."
GILBER: "There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only the Congress can declare wars."
GOERING: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to do the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
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Active defenders of the Constitution are now decidedly the enemy of our current ruling class and their media arm. People who demand their most basic Constitutional, indeed, natural and inalienable rights in the face of attacks by armed and/or unidentifiable (as they were in Denver) police operating without warrants are the enemy of the current ruling class and their media, federal and local police arms.
Some related recent news:
The Precursor to these raids on Aug. 26th re the Glass Bead Collective:
Homeland Insecurity in the Twin Cities:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/08/28-6
McCain Suggests Adopting Iraq Tactics to Tackle Urban Crime:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/4/headlines
Experts Warn Against Military Aid to Mexico:
In addition to this $465 million dollar "aid package" the Israelis have been selling the Mexican federal police new weapons and surveillance technologies to use against indigenous tribal dissent--trial tested on Israel's captive population (the Palestinians) in the Occupied Territories:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/02/10058/
Suppression is rapidly becoming not just an international but a domestic SELF-INCENTIVIZING multi-billion dollar a year industry rich in privatized players just like the military- and prison industrial complexes. Now Obama says we "need Blackwater."
Do any of the rest of you get the feeling that JFK's statement that, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" is something our neo-fascist rulers intend to test to the limit? Is this out of their greed and hubris or their own FEAR? McCain says we need a more egalitarian military draft. It would be a red hot poker up the collective ass of the bovine middle- and upper-middle class and it might even yield enough domestic blow-back to produce a more accurate French Revolution. Watering the tree of liberty is never pretty. These fascist pigs should be careful what they wish for.
It seems that this is more than just a local police raid on a 'hippie house'.
Evidence is surfacing that the FBI and Homeland Security is in on this.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/31/raids/index.html
So it would seem that there is a concerted effort to strip people of their rights, and it goes all the way to the top of the food chain.
Can enforcement of PD 51 be far behind?
Walk in peace.
Yo. Anyone here seen my Bill of Rights?
I just set it down and turned my back for a few seconds ...
have you looked in dick cheney's safe yet?
it seems to be where the rest of the important documents are...
original draft of the patriot act
contracts for oil companies and oil service companies
the official guide to dominating everyone on earth - by d cheney
a few photos of papa bush and ronnie raygun...
and of course the real story of 911.....
...peace...
Sometimes people who give a**holes a bad name go into law enforcement.
I've noticed that anyone can be a cop. Or security guard. Which means that there are good and bad folks in both industries. Although when we are talking about outfits like Blackwater, It's hard to not see the entire org as rotten. Are good people who knowingly work for evil orgs still good? Maybe in some ways. But they are also still part of the problem.
I'm a security guard - because I didn't get a decent education. And I'm hating it in so many ways. But it does give you an interesting perspective on things.
* Well, My sig, which is supposed to automatically affix to the 'end' of my comment, stays at the top. Nice going CD. Are we acquiring attitude, or staff with attitude?
just hit return a few times before the sig---that gives you space to comment before it. Can you give us the insiders skinny on anything? Have you been approached by HS agents?
Make state universities free for evetryone that wants to go. It would be a HUGE, wonderful ionvestment in the future of our country. Terrorists like Tim McVay are made by lousy parental upbringing (parents dontALWAYS know wwhat is best, and you dont get to pick your parents)and a lack of good opportunity in society. Look where the Military Recruiters go, primarily.
Worse is the fact that many of our police, sheriffs and security guards are soldiers and marines only months off the battlefield. There is no doubt that this industry attracts those with low self esteem and a need for power.
Not all cops are bad but they stay silent about the abuses that happen. Very rare is the cop who has the integrity to speak out. Even when they do speak out they system is stacked in their favor. The law and courts adopt a "why second guess them?" attitude when there is a police involved shooting.
As a kid I used to have respect for them but as I grew older and had some encounters with them that respect vanished.
For example:
I was stopped, had my ID checked and grilled for quite a while because I was walking at 2 AM to meet a friend as she was getting off work to walk her home. This cop didn't ASK for my ID he DEMANDED it. I wasn't doing anything more suspicious than walking down the sidewalk. He only stopped after calling her work and getting confirmation that I was supposed to meet her. No apology, no oops, nothing.
When I called his superior the following morning and described what happened i was told that "Everything he did was within guidelines."
How can I respect such an organization or it's members?
I crossed the border from Canada to Wash. recently and was struck by the mean tone of the agent there too. I think it must be part of the playbook.
Hey there - you have to click in front of your signature before you start typing. Not the best software design, but it is what it is.
Joe
The same sort of outrageous anti-Constitutional shenanigans happened in Philadelphia at RNC 2000. The City of Philadelphia wound up having to shell out millions in response to the resulting lawsuits. Did you know that a city can buy insurance to cover payments from civil lawsuits? (http://www.commondreams.org/news2002/0731-01.htm) Effectively, Philadelphia purchased immunity from violating the Constitution, then violated people's civil rights with evident premeditation. I doubt the insurance company was very happy with that. I imagine that the premiums for that sort of insurance have been going up over the last decade ....
The fascist cops do what they do, there's a lawsuit and TAXPAYER funds are used to pay the damages from the ensuing civil suits. It's an acceptable strategy for TPTB...they get to lock down, say "oops" and then hand back a small portion of the swag they steal from the public. Until the police state is in full formal swing and Directive 51 implemented, this is an interim measure.
When John Timoney first became Philly Police Commissioner, he came across as a relatively enlightened, professional police officer-- rode his own bike around the city, promoted community policing, etc.
Mister Hyde leaped out with a vengeance during the 2000 convention, though-- and afterwards, when he became Miami's Chief of Police. It turned out that Timoney truly loathes and despises public protest and dissent, like his infamous predecessor Frank Rizzo.
Timoney proved to be just another fascist goon.
It's getting darker and darker. So that grinning prostitutes in every direction can have their happy freedom dream. FUCK all of you uniformed putzes with nothing better to do with your lives.
Welcome to the continuing evolution of the American Police State. Kinda interesting how these types of gestapo bullshit tactics are used at the REPUBLICAN convention, where they were not used at the Democrat one. Interesting, indeed.
America is the Darkness. Kiss the light goodbye folks. It goes downhill from here.
"The only thing required for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing."
Actually, they were.
There was a peaceful march in Denver that was surrounded by riot cops, pinned between two buildings, and indiscriminately tear-gassed.
Not to mention the SUV's bearing fully armed and armored SWAT teams rolling throughout the city.
And the mass detention facilities that were installed in local warehouses that went (thankfully) unused.
Then there were the REGISTERED mainstream reporters who were harassed and arrested when they tried to do their jobs ie: document and report the political who's who in attendance outside their hotels.
Or the violent takedowns of CODEPINK members, who were tackled, tasered, and handcuffed, but eventually released with no charges laid.
So don't say that the Dems didn't play the same dirty hardball...
Walk in peace.
You're right Galen (as usual). There are some subtle differences though. I didn't hear of any preemptive actions in Denver; and we have yet to see what comes down in the twin cities.
The black-uniformed thugs have been perfecting their terror skills in Iraq and in Afghanistan. The CIA has trained Central and South American dictators for decades the art of torture and disappearance. Now they're starting here in the good ole United States of Atrocities. Dark warehouses with Gitmo-like cages are being built to house those who protest the shredding of the Constitution. Martial law will soon be here.
To Shliapnikov...you say: "I would urge people to go slow with the statements that this is fascism. I was in Central America during the 80s and in the Philippines, where I saw the bodies of those routinely murdered by death squads. What we see in the US these days is not fascism, but it is steps in that direction which must be resisted."
Let me ask you when a poisonous snake becomes a poisonous snake...is it not when it's still in the egg? For if we break open the egg, it looks like a snake and surely will develop into one. Or do we have to wait until it hatches? And then what?...it's still only young and able to kill only a few, so let's not yet call it a poisonous snake? When, then, can we give the reality the label?
Do we have to wait until thousands or millions die? If it looks and walks and talks like jack-booted, corporate-supported and paid-for fascism, then why not call it that? Wake up America!
I agree with Shliapnikov that the legal and organizational groundwork for fascism has been thoughtfully and carefully laid over the last years, and it is in the experimental stages. It is sneaky and comes with a smily face and a slew of behavioral psychologists.
People who have lived under true fascism (and I too know some) would laugh at us American citizens for being such spoiled hysterics. If we think this is fascism, then we would naturally start to organize an underground resistance as our main or only course of action. That would leave out all kinds of battles we can still fight, such as organizing, electoral, educational, speaking, etc.
There is still time for open battles. (Not for everyone - like undocumented workers or Guantanamo prisoners, who need our help to get basic rights) Yes, we get arrested. But most of us get lawyers and get out. Sometimes we sue and collect damages. The press tries to ignore protest and block out much of the truth, but Common Dreams and Democracy now survive. I am not being shot for writing here (knock on wood). That is repression, not fascism.
Joe
I think it was Sinclair Lewis who said:
"When Fascism comes to the US it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"---and wearing a dress if Palin gets in there.
American Fascism gives us the illusion of freedom, but there are lines we can't cross. Hey we can still post here---but are we free to say certain things? Or, you can protest---but in a certain areas, with a permit, and you better leave your face exposed so they can take your picture.
Fascism is ANY nationalist authoritarian movement.
See the Denver picture of the SWAT team hanging off a pick-up truck? Look familiar?
minorities and union people have been putting up with this cr*p for a long time, and it is nothing compared to what happens regularly in our masters' satraps in the third world.
The actual warrants were scanned and posted online at the Twin Cities Indy Media website. There is also a written record of what was found:items we all probably have in our garages right now as we read this, though the cops are presenting them as though they are sinster ingredients for "incendiary devices" or potential bomb-making materials.
Also, any political literature appears to have been inventoried as "propaganda." Give me a frickin' break!
I would urge people to go slow with the statements that this is fascism. I was in Central America during the 80s and in the Philippines, where I saw the bodies of those routinely murdered by death squads. What we see in the US these days is not fascism, but it is steps in that direction which must be resisted.
This IS political repression, intended to demonize people who take their responsibilities as citizens seriously. The raids will help intimidate others from joining the street demonstrations and to create a predisposition in the public that will excuse police brutality in the coming days.
Please avoid the temptation of "street fighting," but you have my strong blessings for mass demonstrations and civil disobedience when the conditions warrant it. I am sure you will have lots of cameras taking pictures of the police. Perhaps the cameras will constrain the cops, but if not, they will lead to some serious court settlements which will punish the cities and sheriff departments for co-operating with the feds in the abuse of civil liberties.
Since the police are using the argument that their is a criminal conspiracy to plan riots, perhaps we should point out the obvious criminal conspiracy to rob citizens of their basic rights of free speech, free assembly. of the right to be secure in our persons and property, protected from unwarranted searches and that such warrants must only be issued upon probable cause that a crime has been committed.
That conspiracy should be pretty easy to prove.
Didn't the US train and supply the death squads in both Columbia and the Philippines?
If they are more than willing to commit these actions in foreign countries, given the present and growing level of distrust of the federal government, who is to say they will not do the same in the US?
As well, the 'official version' of the 'suicide death' of Dr. Bruce Ivins, the FBIs sole suspect in the so-called 'Anthrax Terror Attacks' is now widely discounted as a black op to clean up a loose end.
Walk in peace.
I don't know who, when, how nor what, but when the blow-back from all this repression comes, its gonna be something. Really something. The '60's are going to pale in comparison.
Thank goodness for the ways of the Universe.
Don't let yourselves get sucked itno a "blowback" reaction; that is playing into their hands; exactly what they want!
See my comment at 12:24 pm and new reply to it.
Chris Horton
OBAMA FOR LIFELONG MONARCH! PAY OFF THE GOP TO GO ALONG < LIKE THEY DID THE DNC BEFORE! Congratulatiosn, sheeples--youve got a police state. And it was a peacable coup (teh ones we go to see) asnd the peopel rejoiced that they woudl never have to decide anything for themselves agian.
KD... the coup happened in November, 2000. The Florida 'hanging chads' and minority voters purged from the voting lists? The so-called 'Brooks Brothers Riot'? The decision of the US supreme court that appointed GWB as president? Any of that ring a bell?
This whole process of the DNC and RNC is just stage dressing and props. An illusion to fool the sheeple into thinking they have a choice.
McCain and Palin are in.
Diebold will see to that.
Democracy in the US is as dead as the 9/11 firefighters.
Walk in peace.
Diebold stole the 2004 election in Ohio--and anybody who worked the pol swith moveonorg knows it. DNC wont do anything.
"Here in Vancouver, BC, at a decently announced rally or march we get an average 10 000 +. In the Rain. During the winter fergawdsakes! "
How about UNANNOUNCED RALLIES???
Hard to get the word out when it has to be mouth to mouth...
True.
But even on extremely short notice, even by WOM, we can get a decent crowd going out here.
Must have something to do with a tradition of large scale protests in the city going back almost a century.
Walk in peace.
or that really laid back attitude towards work.
perhaps it's the large number of people on welfare, five million by last count - well that's the number the tories refer to... (teasing, I know that's not at all true. Sometimes I submit when I really should delete.)
WAIT WAIT WAIT.
I just read the first line again.
Raiding 'suspected' protesters?
They didn't even DO anything. "Suspected of planning a protest"?
George Orwell was right.
The Thought Police are here. And they are coming for you.
Hell, every single person who posts on CD , by this definition, is guilty of 'suspected protesting', possibly even sedition or treason.
And with the Telcoms and FBI/CIA broad scale monitoring of sites like this, they are sure to find something incriminating (at least in their paranoid eyes) on just about anyone.
Jesus.
The US is in much deeper trouble than you think, or could even imagine.
Walk in peace.
And this: http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/08/30#comment-1019403
dovetails right in...
Preventative detention is something you usually see when a 'real' war breaks out. Fortunately for bush, he's manufactured a war that has no basis in reality. Like some other poster's have mentioned the justifications for confiscating property has precident in the ongoing 'war on drugs'.
Don't worry too much Galen - are you the re-birth of that screen name? - if you're canadian you can't be accused of being a traitor to the usa; not that that would stop bushie from trying to arrest us for that... (grin)
Strange days we live in, if only one could be sure that the goals of the bushies are what we fear they might be. For all we know, they could have much worse plans for the world than one can imagine.
Yep. I'm back!
Walk in peace.
You're so right!
FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, a partnership between multiple federal agencies and state and local law enforcement. The effort's primary mission, according to the Minneapolis division's website, is to "investigate terrorist acts carried out by groups or organizations which fall within the definition of terrorist groups as set forth in the current United States Attorney General Guidelines."
Pro-active arrest. Its illegal as hell. I hope they get ionvestigated and theu sue the shit out of them--tahs what GOP fears most--not jail, not anythign but $$$$$$$$
Ummm, hate to break it to ya KD. Under the PATRIOT ACT I & II, this is all legal. Nothing can prevent it, no legal recourse after. 'No knock' raids and warrantless searches are now enshrined in law. The police can strip your home to the 2x4 studs looking for 'evidence' while you are out, and never have to tell you they were there, or what they were looking for. They can intercept your mail, tap your phone, and read your e-mail.
You can be arrested, dragged in to court, tried, and sentenced, all without ever seeing the evidence against you.
Habeus Corpus is a thing of the past, as are US constitutional rights and freedoms.
After the events of 9/11, this is 'the new normal'.
Walk in peace.
That was precizsely my point, if you would READ .I KNOW that the Patriot Act and FISA give them the right to do that__I guess I should have said unconstitutioanl--but Obama has no problem with it, apparently
Why should he.
He is in essence, just as owned by the corporations as McSame.
Walk in peace.
Old Joe Stalin would be proud!!!
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
"Who votes does not count. It's who count's the votes." - attributed to Joseph Stalin.
And is apparently the motto of Diebold.
Walk in peace.
It did happen in Ohio in 2004-Atty Gen Kenneth Blackwell, who ran Bush's Campaign Committee. Tubbas-Jones (RIP) filed a legal brief about the voter caging (not like the DNC--just on the rolls)and challenging , which werwe rapant , esp. at historically Af. Am. colleges in Green County. The DNC held a hearing,dismissedit, and here we are.Kerry couldve challenged. So could Gore,. They didn t , they dont.It wil happen again. I worked with moveon.org in 2004--I hope they wil do it again and MAYBE someone wil listen this time--dont hodl your breath. DNC might be doing something. I think Ohio is key. Taft killed Ohio. But, people feel ignored. I'd volunteer to help agaion, but, of course, i CANNOT, because I'm not a brown shirt--I would NEVER let my feelings compromise what I would do about cheating--but, I guses I make a bad ally now.
Stalin wouldve never done that--just messin with ya!
.
http://www.votenader.org/media/2008/08/29/minnealpolisrally/
Fresh from a 4000-person super rally in Denver, the Nader/Gonzalez Campaign team has hit the ground in Minneapolis and will be out in full force over the weekend to focus attention on the need for opening up the Presidential Debates for third party and independent candidates, working towards the crescendo: a star-studded open the debates super-rally on Thursday.
Ralph Nader, Matt Gonzalez, Jesse Ventura, Cindy Sheehan, Justin Jeffre, Nellie McKay, and other surprise guests to be named soon to be announced will all appear at the Nader/Gonzalez "Open the Debates" Super Rally September 4 at 7.30 p.m. at the Orchestra Hall in Minneapolis.
The Nader/Gonzalez independent presidential candidacy will be on the ballot in 45 states, is polling at 5-6 percent nationally, and a new Time/CNN poll shows Ralph Nader polling 8 percent in New Mexico, 7 percent in Colorado, 7 percent in Pennsylvania, and 6 percent in Nevada -- all key battleground states.
.
4000 people at a rally? You call that a 'super-protest'?
Geez, you must be from a small town.
Here in Vancouver, BC, at a decently announced rally or march we get an average 10 000 +. In the Rain. During the winter fergawdsakes!
Walk in peace.
Israeli "preemptive" foreign policy has been imported by the neocons and is now part of Amerikan foreign policy as well as part of the domestic police state. The Chinese also rounded up potential protestors prior to the Olympics.
an informative read:
http://www.irmep.org/dd_ch1.htm
excerpt:
"However, many neoconservatives still believe that even if a first strike is unleashed against the wrong country, it can still have benefits, no matter what the expense or damage to America’s reputation.
“Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.” Michael Ledeen, American Enterprise Institute
I suggest the hand of Israeli dual citizen, Mossad agent, and Secretary of Homeland Defence Chertoff in these raids.
biwee,
No Chertoff is NOT a "dual citizen", you are either repeating lies you have heard or you are purposely spreading lies.
The FACT is any Jewish person may MOVE TO ISRAEL and BECOME an Israeli citizen. This does NOT make Jewish persons "dual citizens". It just makes them Jewish.
And please give us your source that Chertoff is an agent of Mossad, oh wait, you don't have a source.
As always, please note that i am NOT supporting US fascism, i have personally been involved in protests at conventions, and i have personally been arrested numerous times for protest actions, BUT - i am sick of the repetition of this "dual citizen" lie so i point it out whenever i see it at Common Dreams.
The implementation of Presidential Directive 51 is coming. Bet on it.
Walk in peace.
KDelBesides, my original point was nowheree so personal--I'm amazwed you took it that way. I was criticizing the DNC., I WAS an Obama supporter. There are more of us everyday, because, even if there is some mundane point (I also mentioned Code Pink, and otheres) you just jump all over people.Apparenlty you dont care. But you should.Obama allowed criticism of his vote on FISA on his own website--but you guys are now his brown shirtsa. You patrol every liberal sites lloking for ht tiniest infractiom of Obama rules--where do you think that tha wil get you?I'll teel you--its gotten alot of peo;le suportinga third candidate. Its Your own damn fault. I coudl go on and on about what I disagtrew with obama on ideologically. I think I did --above. The veterans werw a small part of it--did yo read? So you agrew with al the rst of it> Good.
Hmmm.
I would hazard a guess that these kids are on the 'No Fly' list.
All those rumors and shaded truths about PROMIS software monitoring seem to be bearing fruit.
I guess the PATRIOT ACT and PATRIOT ACT II are in full swing.
Oh, and Bush just declared a large scale state of emergency due to Hurricane Gustav. Keep an eye out for Presidential Directive 51 coming into play.
Walk in peace.
Everyone check out VOTE.KSTP.com. Wish I knew how to link it. The RNC wil be investigated--I hope.
Here's some quotes to think about while reading this:
"They hate us because of our freedoms." - George W. Bush
"Governments should be afraid of their people, not people afraid of their governments." V, 'V for Vendetta'
Think for a moment.
How many rights and freedoms have you lost under the Bush Junta?
How many ways are you surveilled and monitored?
Are you *really* that much safer from the Bush boogyman 'terrorists'?
There are 13 signs that mark a fascist dictatorship / police state.
And the US is showing ALL of them.
Walk in peace.
We need an OPPOSITION party--we odnt have one now!
There is an opposition party - the Greens. Believe me, as someone who has been trying to register Greens for a decade, there is frustration at the strange blindness and confusion that comes over many people when they actually *do* encounter an opposition party.
So, I'm not sure it is so much a matter of "we need an opposition party" as "why is it so difficult (and why *has* it been so difficult) to get over the siren call of the Democratic half of the corporate party when people profess to need an opposition party and there is one readily available."
It is not just the people in Kansas and Nebraska who vote against their interests and values.
The Greens (and others) are being deliberately kept out of the trough because both the Dems and Repubs know that it would mean the end of the Corporate free ride in power. The Green Party, and others would demand an accounting of corporate behavior and a curb to the rampant military spending, along with social and environmental responsibility.
I mean, other than that, the ruling party (with it's two public wings) have no real objection to 'Democracy (tm)'. Walk in peace.
Go and join your local Nader group.
You DO have a choice.
Exactly.
All the US has is two wings of the Corporate Repressive Authoritarian Party (CRAP).
Walk in peace.
A phalanx of black clad al Qaeda gunmen and suicide bombers could be marching down Main Street and the cops would never know they were in town since they would be expending all their energy picking gnats out of pepper because some obscure left wing blog which the FBI claimed was the Rosetta Stoned of anarchy in America said that's where the "terrorists" were hiding.
ALSO … they'd likely MISS THEM …
____ because what goes for "the enemy"
____ is really our own propped up agent provocateurs,
so really the TERRORIST ( walking in town ) would look _e.x.a.c.t.l.y_ like us,
____ as we are "THEM" ____
One he!! of a cover & camouflage
Namaste
That is almost poetic.
And thanks for not using any lame Nazi comparisons.
DAVE ERIQAT & BRIAN D: Good points.
Seems these types of actions change the line in the sand. I remember when "Zero Tolerance" became the anti-drug mantra, right around the time that urine tests were implemented, and all property seized BEFORE any jury verdict was gathered. And the public tolerated this... a direct attack on Civil Liberties, and the 4th Amendment (? I lose track of the numbers.)
The idea of Disaster Capitalism is to create havoc to profit by, or otherwise be the fiscal scavenger in for the kill when it does happen. Climate change facilitates catastrophes like New Orleans that a few profit from, at the expense of a great many.
So here we have the new "anti protest" Litmus test, like the rationale for war taken against Iraq, to attack the opponent before they begin to attack, as if this is a viable strategy. It represents a naked war of aggression, a crime against humanity, what most take for THE supreme crime. And now a similar tactic is being taken against "domestic enemies" who are those who still find the courage to voice dissent against a political machine that has 2 wings on the same low flying bird of prey. Pre-emptive strike against free speech and the right to assembly, it just gets worse by the minute. Indeed, all parallels with the rise of Hitler's Nazi state ARE on the mark; but America, as brand name, can never identify itself with the tactics being used, like a vampire, recoils from its reflection in the dark mirror.
Yes, SIOUXROSE.
OUR __ C O N S C I E N C E __ IS THE MIRROR, as
OUR __ H U M A N I T Y __ ITSELF __ IS MORE POWERFUL
_________ THAN _____ A N Y T H I N G _________
( … if we choose to act from LOVE and PEACE, not
to react with more VIOLENCE and HATE … )
Namaste
74 years and 3 months ago to the day was the Night of the Long Knives.
No warrants. No-knock raids. How can the police seize property without arresting the owner?
What next? Warrentless no-knock raids on CommonDreams readers?
They are probaly on teh list of "questionable citizens" (that the old FISA Act made illegal--but that doesnt apply now--why??)--I saw it years ago when a friend of mine from Sea Shepherd was detained for 60 days for refusing to submit a list of members. The QUAKERS are on it! The AFSC (a branch of Quakers), Earth First, all those groups and people. WHY dop you think the FISA reform act was so very cxrucial?? It wasnt just about terrorists on you rtelephone!
I've seen this sort of stuff occur in China and at the time I remember telling people there that this would never happen in the U.S. Of course this is before the Neo-Cons launched their post 9-11 program of fear and intimidation.
Studying the rise of Nazi Germany, scholars instantly recognize the lack of public protests back then compared to what is occurring here and now. Just like Hitler's crude propaganda machine in the thirties, the MSM has been very effective in cowing the populace nowadays. Fear rules. Meanwhile 'hate radio' programs like Hannity and Colmes either blame the 'Liberals' or applaud the 'fine efforts' our law enforcement agencies sending a clear message to anyone who is listening... 'blame the government, blame the liberals or even blame your neighbour for all your woes, but never point the finger at big business!'
For the American citizenry to wrest control of government from the corpocracy we live in, will require nothing short of a revolution. But I doubt this revolution will occur in my lifetime. The Neo-Con apparatus is far more sophisticated and well funded that anything Hitler could have imagined.
'This would never happen in the US', huh?
Ever hear of the American Indian Movement? AIM was stalked, intimidated and harassed for years by the FBI in the Seventies, with member's homes raided and member's arrested on phony, trumped up charges. Several of them were effectively 'executed' during police and FBI actions.
But because these things happened to a bunch of Native Americans (or as the FBI called them 'uppity Indians') and not middle or upper class whites, there is next to no public recognition that these events took place. Cultural amnesia strikes again.
And what about the police intimidation in the South during the Sixties, of those who tried to ensure universal sufferage (the right to vote) for American Negroes?
Think about it.
These actions do happen. They are just conveniently ignored.
Walk in peace.
Exactly. Rights of the Native Americans and the rights of people of color have been violated from the get-go. What people did not realize is that if just ONE PERSON's rights are being violated, and we look the other way, WE ARE ALL IN TROUBLE. When a black man was thrown to the ground just for being stopped just because he was black, it was just a matter of time before this kind of Fascist treatment made its way to the whole population. Do we get it now? Fascist tactics have been occurring in this country for a very long time. It's only now when the whole populace is suffering do we realize it because the cancer was not stopped at its roots long ago. Now we all pay. And now we all have to fight for our rights for EVERYONE ALL THE TIME. No exceptions. Then we will be a democracy.
"Truthseeker58 August 31st, 2008 9:22 pm
Exactly. Rights of the Native Americans and the rights of people of color have been violated from the get-go. What people did not realize is that if just ONE PERSON's rights are being violated, and we look the other way, WE ARE ALL IN TROUBLE. When a black man was thrown to the ground just for being stopped just because he was black, it was just a matter of time before this kind of Fascist treatment made its way to the whole population. Do we get it now? Fascist tactics have been occurring in this country for a very long time. It's only now when the whole populace is suffering do we realize it because the cancer was not stopped at its roots long ago. Now we all pay. And now we all have to fight for our rights for EVERYONE ALL THE TIME. No exceptions. Then we will be a democracy.
"
QFT! When "Injuns" and "Niggers" were getting their teeth kicked in, the greater society didn't even blink. Now, little white kids are getting tazered and beaten and it's a tragedy. I'm no racist but, don't you guys think that it would've been easier to chop the hydra's heads off when it was wreaking havoc on your darker brothers? Now, it's full grown and about to be sated on the blood of all of us. Perhaps, when the smoke clears, we can let all this crap go that the tyrants have used to keep us separate and weak. Racism, religion, classism, etc. are all tools of our common slavemasters to keep the slaves from revolting. Why can we not see this?
"Society is in every state a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." --- Thomas Paine, Common Sense
Well, the NeoCons are smart. They learned well the lessons of Goebbels and Himmler. Now, they are being applied to YOU, American citizens. I do not have it handy, but you should research Goering's statement from the Nuremburg trials. They explain EXACTLY what has happened in the USA since Aug of 2001.
We now can never be certain about our free-speech rights.
Each party staging protests at the other's convention? Perhaps.
More likely nefarious false flag protests staged to create choas and allow for the expansion of the police state to knock down doors with semi-auto weapons, zip ties etc to chill any dissenting voices.
This is why I recommend all dissenting voices dress in business suits and look "average". The visual confusion for the police and media both will be extraordinary.
You Decide
Most of the protestors at he DNC were REPUBLICANS?! I find that a little hard to believe ...Iraq Vrts? Code OPINk? Greenpeace---al GOP. How strange. And I do not think the people in St. Paul would classify themselves as Democrats.
The police state marches on. First the police fought violent protesters; then police provocateurs instigated violence in protests, justifying violent police response; then police corralled protesters in "free speech zones"; now they're busting in doors of suspected protesters before they even get to the streets! I suppose the next step is preemptive arrests to prevent crimes.
Dave
http://daveeriqat.wordpress.com/
the disconnect between the internet generation (who have some access to real news, opinion and fact) and the majority of automatons still clinging to the corporate media has become so wide that only the gestapo can intercede
send out the brownshirts
this is classic nazism and quickly becoming american fascism modus operandi
i remember when there had to be probable cause before the government could break down the door
ok, i am getting nostalgic for a time that no longer exists but i do remember those times - and they were good times
hitler was elected, fair and square, in an open and free election in a democratic country of educated people
within 2 years of taking office he used the false flag event of the burning of the german parliament to introduce homeland security thereby restricting the rights and privileges of the german citizenry in order to protect them
sound familiar
then he started to round up the jews, the slavs whom he hated every bit as much as the jews, the unionists, the gays, the intellectuals, until everyone was afraid to speak out
sound familiar
i get the sense that most americans are waking up, in increasing numbers, to this new reality - the one whereby criticizing the government is enough to get you onto the watch list
i get the sense that a lot of american are now afraid of their own government - there was an article about this on cd last week
doesn't sound like a democracy to me
sounds like a fascist police state - one that exists simply to provide for the imperial death machine that is enslaving the world even as we speak - not in the name of democracy or freedom but rather in the name of bechtel, dynecor, haliburton, kbr, blackwater, raytheon etc
let's not forget the nwo/globalist/rothschild bank cabal either
its getting scary folks
and who i ask who has the courage to speak out
if you know anyone please forward their names to the nsa/cia/fbi - we need to protect the country from these few remaining terrorists
we need to protect the third reich, i mean the homeland, er i mean the constitution, er i mean..........well i think we are protecting something
aint we?
cheers, b
If you think the "internet generation" is in the know while anyone that doesn't use a computer is uninformed I must disagree.
In fact I'd suggest that the internet generation has a far harder time seperating fact from fiction simply because they tend to get everything from the internet. And there is a LOT of false information running around out there. There is also a tendency to pick up flawed analogies in my opinion.
They actually did do a study, though, a few years ago. They asked questions about current events to a number of people who got most of their news from the internet versus people who got it from TV. The people who got their 'news' solely from TV, scored horrendously (approximately 35% correctness) on knowing the true facts about current events while the people using the internet scored higher than 90%.
Steady friends.
This outrageous behavior by police agencies is meant not just to intimidate but to provoke, to get us to do something which they can make a big national issue out of and which they can use to justify even greater repression.
Don't take the bait; and hold back anyone around you who is eager to take it or is trying to get you to. During the VietNam protests and in countless labor struggles the use of police spies to incite violence was common. It is entirely foreseeable that they will try that again.
Chris Horton
Entirely possible or maybe they are just jumpy and someone said something stupid. But also don't make assumptions on how something looks I'd say...remember the Jena 6 and how it was presented at first. Looked entirely different when the truth came out.
I agree its better to wait and see what the real story is.
Yes, thats what people need to do --nothing! That will realy get them!!
The point is to stay peaceful and disciplined no matter what, but to keep going, not to give in. That takes courage and patience, and at times a willingness to take losses. Lashing out is a more natural and immediately satisfying reaction, but it usually plays into their hands.
Doing something, anything, to get attention from a corporate media that is determined to ignore us has a great emotional appeal; but that attention, if it allows them to put us in the wrong, will do more harm than good. Remember, we don't have independent access to the 95% to 98% of the people who get all their news from the mass media, so we don't get a chance to explain our side of the story. The story has to largely tell itself, in spite of the voiceover by the media hacks.
Find the movie Ghandi, and watch or re-watch it. Read a description of the non-violent tactics of the Civil Rights movement. Or watch the movie Matewan (a simply awesome movie) as the young union organizer tries to persuade the miners not to start a war they can't win, while the company finks work to provoke one.
This strategy only makes sense where the government and its agents have some kind of moral restraint, concern about public opinion and/or concern about the law. It wouldn't for example make sense in a context like Nazi Germany. While it is true that our country is being moved in that direction, we are a very long way from being there yet (tho in the moment when one is being attacked by police or goons it might seem that we were.)
In practical terms, when someone talks about planning violence, arming ourselves or attacking the police, talk them down if you can or, failing that or if there is no time, isolate or stop them and get them out of your ranks. And if someone shows up dressed as Che Guevara (or whatever the "militant fashion" of the moment is) and shooting off their mouths about revolution, judge them by their deeds but watch them like a hawk!
Chris Horton
That's a great film on the civil rights movement and it's success using Ghandi's methods of non-violent resistence. I read an article very recently that showed the end results of movements that were done with civil disobedience and peaceful protest versus voilent tactics. In the end result, the movements done solely by peaceful means faired far better than those that used violence. Violence just begets more violence, it seems, and doesn't further the success of the cause.
Wow! So, this is what it's come down to? Be revolutionary as long as you don't alert the authorities? Come on!
I don't mean to offend anyone here but, a solid evolutionary uprising has been long overdue in this country as well as around the world. We've tried things their way for the last 10,000-12,000 years and our own planet is on the brink of catastrophe. Why should we cower before them and beg them to stop? Begging hasn't worked. Protesting doesn't work. Voting doesn't work. So, are we just supposed to hide in basements and talk them out?
Let them come for me. I will say, until they torture the last breath from my body, that it is time to fight and die if we have to for our freedom. Maybe, when it's all said and done, we'll never give our freedom away again for promises of bread and circuses. If my penchant for believing that we need to remove those monsters from power, by any means necessary, means that I can't be in your little club, then so be it.
"Society is in every state a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." --- Thomas Paine, Common Sense
Isn't being a little bit repressive like being a little bit pregnant?
Or slightly dead?
Walk in peace.
What teh DNC did was somewhat less offensive (on a scale of 1 to 10?) ..what the problem is, is that it opems the gates--teh GOP can say, "Well, you did this and that in Denver". The DNC squealched all types of speech--anti-war, impeachment, FISA, etc. We expect the Dems to behave better. They did--but , just a little. Just enough to keep the "well its better than McCain" people feeloig "HOPE". What BS this all is.
Just a little? Breaking into a home and terrorizing the residents with automatic weapons---then taking computors and arresting on unconstitutional trumped-up charges is "just a little". If you really believe that, then all I can say is: you're blinded by your bias against the democratic party.
I can't wait to hear how samson and little brother and richm attack the democrats for this...
yesterdays republicans are todays democrats... and todays republicans are fascists
As these ruthlessly authoritarian attempts to squelch dissent play out, we can't help but notice the lack - save for some mentions on websites - of coverage in the corporate media.
We also witnessed some police brutality in Denver but nothing even close to the scale of what we're seeing in the Twin Cities. The most appalling matter is the confiscation of equipment and materials.
This is Bush and Cheney's America - a police state in every sense of the word.
q
Yeah? Well, the Dems are supposesd to be the "good guys"--this is the 1960s al over again, except, this time, everyone thinks the Revolution will be YouTubed!
Re-read the post. He's saying the Dems suppressed speech in Denver but the press was all over it. There's nothing in the press about the Twin Cities.
Youre talking about it , arent you? The press was NOT all over he protests in Denver--I had to find it online --and most people dont!
Same reason people spent $$ in Denver--St. Paul is a nice city--Ive been there. The peopole of St. Paul arenot to blame. If we dont stop blaming individual citizens--our FELLOW citizens--and tackle the powers that be--we're all screwed!
This is just another of the indicators in the decline of Democracy, and a moderned day SS Operation for sure. Read "The End of America" by Naomi Wolf.
May God help America!!
"moderned day SS Operation"
Huh? SS operations?
Did--great stuff!
The FISA Law and Patriot Act in action, folks! Pro-active arrest is illegal, any lawyers out there? I wish teh DNC didnt do a sim ilar (if somewhat lesser--bravo.....zzzz)action in Denver--we would be in such a better position to take action! It seems that, if you do these days (this isnt just CodePink , people--not that they dont fully deserve to speak), you are alone. Obama refused to meet with Iraq Vets against the War--some bs change this is.We all know that the GOP sucks--that is not he question. The question is, why is the candidate who won the Dem Primary on the "peace, change" platform, refusing to listen to protestors? This is so locked down, and its worse, because the people who would normally be helping them are all doey-eyes over Obama.
Don't worry, you'll learn, KDelphi.
The Iraq vets marched to the convention and were prepared to get arrested if they were ignored. But guess what---their leader was allowed into the convention to meet with the candidates campaign and the protestors went away peacefully. I call that listening to protestors. Get your facts straight before you try your dissembling.
yesterdays republicans are todays democrats... and todays republicans are fascists
Today's republicans and todays democrats are the same.
The War.
FISA.
NAFTA.
Fake Money.
They were VETS, they HAD to listen to them. It was in their SELF INTEREST to do so, Now, the dems will continue carry on their war, murder and looting.
You'll have to fin it yourself (like you are interested) on YouTUbe-you know how to do it better than I do-I'm one of those old ladies you dont need--never felt old at 50 till this year!The internet is suposed to be so ionformative--but I think it has caused an entire generation to htink that they can change the system from within on the internet--wrong.So, the Dems are a little bit nicer fascists--what a LAME revolution ! I hope I die before I get THAT old!
WHhoooaaaa! 50 is the start of middle age! You are NOT old. Old age starts at 75 now.
Not accordin to Obama supporters--I USED to be one! Criticize ONCE--you are OUT of the "club".
You are 100% WRONG! I wil find you the link--brb--I just watched it on YouTube this Am, and it still has me steamed.This is absolutely FALSE!They were NOT allowed in and they are stil waiting to hear form him!
No, you are wrong---
This is quoted from the Democracy Now! website: "Iraq Vets Lead Antiwar March to Dem. Convention
Outside the convention, thousands of demonstrators marched through the streets of Denver to call on Democrats to back an immediate US withdrawal from Iraq. Members of Iraq Veterans Against the War led the march to the perimeter surrounding the Pepsi Center. A tense standoff ensued as police threatened to pepper spray and forcibly disperse the crowd. But the rally ended peacefully after Obama staffers agreed to meet protest leaders. In addition to an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, the demands also included paying reparations to the Iraqi people. The march began at a concert by the band Rage Against the Machine."
yesterdays republicans are todays democrats... and todays republicans are fascists
I would suggest that if someone protests, there is no obligation on the part of anyone to listen to, cover the event or respond to whatever they are protesting.
If Obama did not meet with the Vets thats his decision and there is nothing wrong with it. If he hasn't gotten back to them in what they consider a timely manner, once again, there is no obligation to do so. Their votes are what they can use if they aren't satisfied with his response.
I'm trying to say that just becasuse someone shows up they don't automatically get a seat at the table or even help the situation at times.
I had understood that a representative of Obama had met with the Vet leaders. Maybe thats what he was referring to. Or am I wrong and that was a false report?
I saw it om YouTube. You read it on Democracy Now! Whichone is right? Who knows. Trust who you wish. In teh long run, its beside the point. Obama keeps changint he dates we wil leave. He enlargfes t4h war im ASfghanistan. He threatens Palestine and Georgia--and hes the "peace" candidate>
"In teh long run, its beside the point." It was your point originally. Can you say "agenda"
My point originally was NOT the Iraq vets. It was that the Dems could not speak out or act as freely bvecdause of the way protestors were treated in Denver. And I stand by that.
Of course you are right! Obama has no obligation to do anything! And I have no obligation as a life long Dem to vote for him. And more and more people feel that way. Listen or lose, sheeples. The VETS who fought this make the situtation WORSE?! I'l trust the video they sent me, thanks
I didn't say the Vets made it worse. I'll try to be clearer.
It's one thing to be against Obama for ideological reasons---that's totally valid. It's another thing entirely to spread lies and disinformation about him because you have an agenda.
So you are just fine with the ideological stances that Obama and te4h DNC are taking now--what areyou , some kind of neo-con??
If you guys stop all criticism of Obama--I can guaratnee you that he wil lose. YOu have to stop this. If the Vetersna were treated fairly in the end--I'll know. I subscribe to their blog. Listen or lose.
MY AGENDA! If I did have one--it would be MINE! Which is mopre tha I can say for Obama supportes who fal in line tlike Moonies! If you really cared if he won --an dwerwent just trying to make a political statemnt--youd listen. The fact remains thatr if the protestors at the DNC werew listened to--people would jsut brush off concerns about protestors there. They werent . That is my opinon. And, last ie I checked--I was stil allowed to have it. I statd where my opinion cam efrom --i gues the vetersns just dressed up and faked the video. Youre absolutely right. And so is Obama . About everything.
Makes one wonder why anyone would ever spend any money in St. Paul.