Subscribe to Common Dreams News Updates
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
Scientists Speak Out Against Climate Change Deniers' McCarthy-Like Threats
In a letter published in the journal Science, more than 250 members of the US National Academy of Sciences, including 11 Nobel Prize laureates, condemned the increase in "political assaults" on scientists who argue greenhouse gas emissions are warming the planet.
In a letter published in the journal Science, more than 250 members of the US National Academy of Sciences, including 11 Nobel Prize laureates, condemned the increase in "political assaults" on scientists who argue greenhouse gas emissions are warming the planet. (AFP/DDP/File/Axel Schmidt) The 'climategate' scandal and mistakes by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) have led to a surge in attacks on climate scientists around the world.
In a strongly worded letter, the group of scientists likened the situation to the 'McCarthy era' in the US where anyone suspected of communist links was threatened with persecution. The period in the 1950s was named after the anti-communist pursuits of Senator Joseph McCarthy.
"We call for an end to McCarthy-like threats of criminal prosecution against our colleagues based on innuendo and guilt by association, the harassment of scientists by politicians seeking distractions to avoid taking action, and the outright lies being spread about them," the letter read.
The defence of climate science comes after a number of scandals cast doubt on the theory of man-made global warming. Emails stolen from the University of East Anglia (UEA) appeared to show scientists were willing to exaggerate temperature change in a scandal known as 'climategate', although two separate inquiries have found no evidence of misconduct.
Meanwhile the United Nations science body, the IPCC, that advises world governments about climate change was forced to retract a statement that claimed the Himalayan glaciers could melt by 2035.
The scientists fear the scandals have led to a witch hunt against those involved.
James Inhofe, a US senator and long-standing climate sceptic, has called for a criminal investigation of climate scientists. Professor Phil Jones, the head of the Climatic Research Unit at the UEA, said he considered suicide after receiving hate mail and death threats.
Worst of all, they fear politicians and interest groups in industry are using doubt over climate science to prevent the world from acting to reduce the threat of global warming.
"Society has two choices: we can ignore the science and hide our heads in the sand and hope we are lucky, or we can act in the public interest to reduce the threat of global climate change quickly and substantively. The good news is that smart and effective actions are possible. But delay must not be an option."
The letter points out that there is uncertainty attached to theory of evolution and the Big Bang. But like these theories, climate change has been "overwhelmingly" accepted by scientists.
"There is compelling, comprehensive and consistent objective evidence that humans are changing the climate in ways that threaten our societies and the ecosystems on which we depend," they said.
"Many recent assaults on climate science and, more disturbingly, on climate scientists by climate change deniers, are typically driven by special interests or dogma, not by an honest effort to provide an alternative theory that credibly satisfies the evidence."
:: Governments must come up with a 10-year "bail-out" plan to stop wildlife disappearing across the planet, the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) has warned.
The group in charge on monitoring which animals are most in danger of extinction said countries were fuelling their economies at the expense of protecting the natural world.
But the planet would pay a much higher price in the long run than it could afford if it ignored the need for action to save the wildlife the world depended on, the organisation warned.
Speaking ahead of a meeting of the scientific advisory body for the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD), the IUCN said governments had failed to meet targets to halt biodiversity loss by 2010.
- Posted in

64 Comments so far
Show AllPersecution of scientists for doing their job. It is incredible how special-interest profiteers can mobilise such vast political resources and even generate an anti-scientific ideology.
As the impacts of the climate change become more evident (and disastrous) the neo-liberal McCarthyism will become more strident. It's like as if they are screaming at us "the sun rises in the west, and if you don't agree we'll get you"
Sioux Rose
Amazing isn't it? When the TRUTH is inconvenient, the most "pragmatic" route is always to cast aspersions upon those best situated to proclaim it. Heck, as an astrologer, loyal to a belief system that places its practitioners into the heretic camp (a designation many on the left AND right seem to agree upon) I know how these hate campaigns work. The church tried this route on Gallileo... cheaper and more cost-effective to silence him or torture him into going along with "the program" than otherwise face bad PR. The religious elites of yesteryear dreaded having to stand up to the thousands that were conditioned to believe on threat of death that if they didn't follow letter-of-the law rules and applications their souls would be condemned for all eternity... How then could those who spoke of the immutable authority of the church turn around and say, "Gee, fellas, we were wrong. Have to amend all those holy texts and change the cosmology that held the earth as center to it all." And since then, the rift between independent thinkers and authoritarians has remained, described by a number of other designations.
Defense attorneys understand the mechanism, too. All they need is to create reasonable doubt and they can flip a juror and hold a verdict in limbo.
With hate radio well-funded and the elite not wishing to change "the program" today, it becomes merely a matter of cost-effective pre-emptive strategy to turn the truth tellers into the heretics and let the masses, angry at all the insults to their existences, aim their vitriol accordingly. Meanwhile, the earth burns, the tide rises, the forests vanish, and it's all the fault of those who try to tell the truth. My sympathies to the Indigenous who have lived with a sacred respect for Nature all these centuries... only to see fools tear up paradise while fighting over trinkets. The future is no longer a secure proposition for any of us.
you have made me think about the media...airwaves, in particular...
the recent, further selling of the spectrum to private interests...interests within the club...
those of us not in the club, have only the internet...for how long?
tough to compete from a volume standpoint...for every scientist, for every independent thinker, they put up 30 naysayers, or 30 zealots, and louder...
one would hope calm, sanity and logic would carry the day, but, that has not been my experience...
not that I've given up hope...
the church has had to resort to force to enhance membership many times...rather a pattern...oxymoronic...
peace, sioux rose!
Sioux Rose
DUBET: I know you relish your sensuality, have never given up your affinity with the "inner animal," and I understand your aversion to private property. I wanted to ask you this... do you realize that apart from the transition from hunter-gatherer mobile societies to those that stayed put to farm the land, it was ownership of the FEMALE and thus the birth lineage that formed in large measure the rationale behind private property? Of course this crude sense of ownership then expanded into the slave trade. I don't recall your making comments about women's rights or even the rights of persons of color. I was curious as to how you connected the dots here?
As a woman who raised children close to the poverty line, the death of my father left me with stocks most of which I converted into cash to buy properties. I spent a good deal fixing these up, even furnishing them, and I supply low income people with very nice homes. In fact, I had to deal with an eviction last month that I am still financially rebounding from. The guy punched his girlfriend into the wall leaving me with 6 panels to replace. He had dogs (against the lease) so I had to tile a bedroom instead of risking another renter destroying a new carpet. And he stole some things, too.
I share this because private property is not entirely passive income. A lot of work goes into preparing these units, and then there are property taxes, insurance costs, and in this case, major repairs. I am lucky if I net $3500 profit per year. So as a landlord I have mixed feelings about private property. I think incomes should be capped, and I don't think a society that's facing energy issues should continue building relative mansions... a normal family should have no problem living comfortably within 1200 square feet home. And all the vacant homes the banks scooped up with the $ we taxpayers were forced at virtual gunpoint to hand to them, should become rentals for community interests.
I'd be open to your thoughts on this.
gosh...
at the core, I'm afraid my beliefs are pretty outside the box, in the view of many, perhaps, not only unrealistic, but, even, dare I say it, hypocritical...
there is a strong element in my hammering of the notion of global, unanimous change that is self-directed...
it is hard for me to comprehend the magnitude of change we must endure to make it through what I feel is a rapidly narrowing window of opportunity, given the very real limitations on viable, elemental, living material, and our persistence in destroying such...
your question touches on psychology, religion, sociology, sexuality, parenting, childraising, territoriality and resource limitations, more I'm leaving out...
big...
here I go: i don't believe in the concept of ownership of people physically, emotionally, sexually, whatever...
i believe we naturally experience vastly greater amounts of sexual urge than we admit, and that, where we have been conditioned to believe that suppressing them is the goal, I would suggest the opposite...
that we would be much healthier if we would, could, openly confess these feelings, and stop making sexual attraction a lifetime commitment...every time...ha ha...
i also, of course, am an advocate of the perspective-raising qualities of marijuana, and believe it be a practical aid in this conversion, and in the maintaining of a naturally harmonic view...
and music...
also, I was reflecting this morning on the natural urge to migrate and explore the world, physically, that is stifled by our economic and property-driven realities...
I am not clear, myself, how this would all play out, but, my ultimate play in virtually any arena, anymore, is 'nature knows better than man'...therefore, I wonder what the world might be like if we tried living more aligned with our urges...celebrating them, rather than punishing ourselves for them...
i guess I would hope anthropology might provide clues, as well as indigenous peoples...knowledge of living in harmony with the world is growing ever more important...and scarce...we need to reawaken that, spread it...
the vast majority of the people I know, of any sex, race, etc., with, sadly, the odd exception of, primarily, religious, or just pompous-dick evil, white people, are pleasant, enjoyable company, struggling to figure shit out, like me, and fighting a constant flow of illogical babble meant to confuse, frustrate, and occupy while crime is accomplished behind...
far too many are living digital lives, though, and believing way too much of what they are fed...
now, I'm babbling...mostly, I imagine a paradise, and simply wonder why we don't, all together, fuck this shit and take a shot...go out in glory, for fuck sake!
i don't want these bastards to win...i don't want women dominated, i don't want children lied to or abused, i don't want other animals and plants to disappear because of our disregard for everything, including our own fucked up asses...
there is, behind all of it, I guess, our Western deal with personal death...
sure does play stupid, though...doesn't even carry it's own weight...
i'm glad you're around, sioux rose...
hang in there, and if you wish, help me help myself...
Global Start Date: September 22, 2012...please...
...let's get those gardens growing!
Sioux Rose
DUBET: Your honesty is refreshing. Last month I attended an over-priced, over-rated writer's convention (another attempt to try to get some buzz around my books), and it was to commemorate Henry Miller. At the Saturday night dinner event some quotes from Miller were offered, along with not only the history centered around the censorship of his books (Tropic of Cancer, I believe)... but also the ACTUAL verbiage written by a dissenting judge when the censors finally allowed Miller's books to be sold in the U.S. The dissenting judge accused Miller, in the most colorful language imaginable, of being a pervert. Essentially, Miller's philosophy was a lot like yours.
In "Illusions" by Richard Bach, he describes an underwater creature whose whole existence involves clinging to the rocks... until one day, the creature decides just to let go, see what happens by allowing the current (which seems to know where it is going) to carry it.
The analogy is that people have, as you put it, been taught to deny, suppress, and reject their natural instincts for so long that there is now a lethal boundary between many selves and the natural world. I believe that the "belief in sin" as associated with both THE garden and natural, spontaneous sexuality are part and parcel to this "modern" development. It also went hand in hand with creating automotons, persons that would fall in line and obey authoritarian codes. These psychological factors play substantially into capitalism as it needs an obedient robotic work force.
So... you and I actually agree on many things. I was glad to be a 60's kid, and enjoy the short era of "free love." I realized that I was among a rare group of women who had their own money, freedom to travel, and newly won freedom to choose our own lovers. For centuries women had been given in arranged marriages, and that practice still goes on in parts of the world like India and Afghanistan. I even lived with a male chef for a while and got to enjoy the benefits of "a wife."
Thanks for responding. Our world would be a far better place if war was not the main event and lovemaking was (reliable, safe birth control, included).
It is typical behavior to make people think that the person who is telling the truth is lying so that no one will believe what they are saying. It has been my experience in life that lies to many times become more powerful than the truth and most people don't care enough to research on their own and so they don't take the time to listen to the person who is trying to tell the truth so that the right thing can be done. If making you out to be a crazy lying wacko doesn't work than they will try something else to stop the truth from coming out.
As climate change become more evident the more those who profit from continuing on the same path to destruction will play even more hard ball. These people don't play around and will do what it takes to silence those who only want to see the truth told and the right thing done.
It happens in other areas of life too and not just climate change. The question I have is when are people going to wake up and realize that they are being lied to and believe those brave men and women who have the courage to fight the lies with the truth.
Chrisy
Scientists will not fight the lies. In general, they are not politically motivated. They may be the ones to discover the truth, but perception management is not their job, and they are not good at it.
While I am a firm believer in Climate Collapse,
I have little regard for the climatologists.
The atmospheric rise of C02, and the effect that it
would have on our planets survival has been known about
and written about since the 1960s.
They were gagged, censored, and forced to accept
industry models of the climate collapse since the early
1970s.
They all act like it is a new phenom that no one
knew about until Gore informed the world.
Huh? Most any climate scientist is glad to tell you that in the 19th Century Fourier, Tyndall, and Arrhenius laid the foundation of theory and repeatable tests.
The corporate media don't care for such "dull" scientific history.
The only ones I see acting like al Gore invented it are on the right. You know, with all their credentials.
Scientists know much more now than in anytime prior. They also have plenty more questions. That's what makes it science. Even if it was all bogus how else would anyone ever figure it out but by studying it? I guess they could all listen to the ones who rely simply on a belief.
Messaging has always been the problem. Money attacks the messenger, the message gets its ass kicked.
http://www.climatecentral.org
The politically-motivated denialist kooks, for which I hope there is being prepared a special place in hell (especially Alexander Cockburn), are always trying to depect the scientists a "alarmist" and with imagined political motivations of their own. But this is the exactly the opposite of the situaiton.
Besides beiing either horribly apolitical or politically naiive (the late Carl Sagan comes to mind) scientists are always very cautious and conservative (i.e. very un-conservative in the engineering sense) when thay are asked to make predictions based on their theories. They make predictions that they are "sure" of - or at very most the 50-percentile prediction. This is a catastrophic way to approach thr problem, becasue there is no "factor of safety" in their predictions. The lower probability, but truly catastrophic scenarois the scientists dare not mention for fear of peer-ridiclule if they are wrong.
This is a terrible way to approach the problem. If engineers designed dams the way the IPCC scientists predicts climate, the dams would fail 50% of the time.
SaboCat
"This is a terrible way to approach the problem. If engineers designed dams the way the IPCC scientists predicts climate, the dams would fail 50% of the time."
Exactly SaboCat. That's how they build buildings in some places in Asia. Just enough cement and rebar to support the load (and no footing). Building collapse is surprisingly common. An 6.0 Earthquake is no big deal in California, but that same quake will level whole cities in many parts of the world like Chile and China just to name a couple.
The predictions of Sea Level Rise are way underestimated imho. NoBody but me seems to realize (I've never seen it in print) that the ocean MSL (Mean Sea Level) is now eight inches higher than it was in 1880.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mean_sea_level
If the Greenland Ice Cap breaks up, we are looking at an average 20 ft increase in world-wide sea levels. So, who in their right mind cares about mis-statements made by IPCC about Himalayan glaciers, when torrents the size of Niagara Falls (Mullons) have been witnessed on top of the Greenland Ice Cap? That thing is a ticking timebomb right under our noses and it can't make it into the mainstream media.
Reading scientists exchanges on GoogleEarth, I gather that that sweltering ice cube won't make it past 2050. Even 2020 is looking iffy. Goodbye Florida.
These are all just my opinions only, and I could be wrong. But I second your observation that these scientists are cutting it fine instead of leaving us some pad for error. It may be too late already to delay global meltdown; who knows? But the prudent thing to do is outlaw coal and the private auto (the two-biggest carbon sources) to buy us some time. Of course, if we're serious about saving the species (us) we have to institute population control. Alternatively we can do nothing, and risk a world-wide extinction event, which may already be inevitable (if the geologic record is any guide, since 99 percent of all species who ever lived are extinct.)
TJ
On May 16-18 the 4th International Conference on Climate Change will meet in Chicago. You probably won't hear much about it. Big Brother doesn't want discussion of this scientific hoax to be reported. The only intimidation is from the media and the progressive academics who feed off of government grants. They have been caught in lies, and now they do protest too loudly.
The United Nations and their legions of corrupt agency drones say exactly what they are told. They aren't anything like real sceintists and someone needs to call them out, even if his name is McCarthy
Oh you mean the 4th Annual rightwing Heartland International Conference on Climate Change. Thanks for the laugh, I needed it.
Actually, I sense a sea-change. People are more likely to disparage the solution to GW, rather than the science behind it. I think people are beginning to realize the weird weather occuring in too many places is related to GW, that the scientists were right all along, and that we need to do something about it. So the conversation is shifting, onto what to do about it, and of course the right is saying, 'don't do anything, it won't be bad'. I guess we can call that progress, can't we?
Good points - I see that trend too. And, yes, someone truly grasping at straws on the brow of a cliff might call it "progress".
"In the US politicians have called for a criminal investigation of climate scientists..."
Should really be the other round: scientists calling for a criminal investigation of US politicians.. (among other things in regard to the cover-up of "that fateful day")
As an aside, McCarthyism was largely a Liberal initiative.
However fiercely historians disagree about the merits of American communism, they almost universally agree that the post-World War II red scare signified a rightward turn in American politics. The consensus is that an exaggerated, irrational fear of communism, bolstered by a few spectacular spy cases, created an atmosphere of persecution and hysteria that was exploited and fanned by conservative opportunists such as Richard Nixon and Joseph McCarthy.
Yet the most famous and effective anticommunist measures were carried out not by conservatives, but by liberals seeking to uphold the New Deal. It was the liberal Truman administration that chased Communists out of government agencies and prosecuted Communist Party leaders under the Smith Act. It was liberal Hollywood executives who adopted the blacklist, effectively forcing Communists out of the movie business. The labor leaders who purged Communists from their unions were, similarly, liberals. Most anticommunism—the anticommunism that mattered—was not hysterical and conservative, but, rather, a methodical and, in the end, successful attempt on the part of New Deal liberals to remove Communists from specific areas of American life, namely, the government, unions, universities and schools, and civil rights organizations. It is true that the FBI and the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) helped carry out these measures, but it is a mistake to assume that J. Edgar Hoover or HUAC could have had much power without the cooperation of liberals who wanted Communists identified and driven out of their organizations.
The Liberals hated the Communists because they were Internationalists.
Party of the pre-war and war years became the launch pad for the reactionary Liberalism which "owns" the Left today, and this not by omission, fear and panic but by way of specific and cold-blooded intent... and also in a form which is readily recognizable to this very day.
Let's also recall the most famous of sweeps in this country, The Palmer Raids, were organized by then attorney General Mitchell A. Palmer, a leading liberal Democrat and a Quaker.
Sorry for the diversion.
Well, I would argue that McCarthyism, or Red Scares in general, were not about party politics but rather about protecting (ruling) class interests (even though a particular party might be pushing that agenda at a given time). And, I would argue that "anti-communist hysteria" was not really about communism either. After both world wars there were Red Scares. Why?
Millions of (mostly) working class men risked their lives and died to "fight for their country". Coming back they expected something out of their government. They wanted better lives for themselves and their families. They wanted better paying jobs, better working conditions, retirement, health-care, housing, each goal cutting into corporate profits. Those identified as "communists" were simply people leading the struggle for those things. The Red Scares were designed to put a lid on those expectations of working people for progressive change. Joseph McCarthy was certainly a demagogue, but more importantly, he provided an crucial function for the class he served. McCarthyism was designed to protect the profits margins of corporate America.
And similarly, this is true for global warming. Capitalist profit margins are based on the high consumption, wastefulness and concomitant pollution of "continuous growth" axiomatic to capitalism. Like it or not, anthropogenic climate change is a direct and inevitable result of the capitalist economic system. The "green scare" is also about protecting profits. In all likelihood, the forces the McCarthyist denial of global warming, and their attacks on science, are just getting warmed up themselves.
very astute comment. thanks for this one...
Sioux Rose
TOM: Fine analysis. Thank you for posting it.
"As an aside, McCarthyism was largely a Liberal initiative."
It is true that Truman's administration hounded communists out of government, but much of the effort was to prevent the Republicans from doing any more damage than they already had done. The same was true of the gutless movie industry executives (afraid to lose profits) and the labor unions (afraid to lose members due to the negative publicity).
Ya sorry, that sounds like revisionist history pure and simple. Especially this line "The Liberals hated the Communists because they were Internationalists." Almost by definition a liberal who is someone who is internationalist, unless I'm misunderstanding your terms. And I'm not sure Truman would be considered liberal. Democrat yes, but liberal? There is such a thing as a ConservaDem.
Bravo to the climate scientists. The Fossil Fuel Barons' goons have attacked, but they are the idiots. They deny that their own house is on fire.
The effects of global warming will probably be far worse than the scientists are now predicting since the increase of methane bubbling up from the tundra and continental rims of the Arctic ocean is not fully figured into the super computer models. The Sun is going through a temporary period with fewer sunspots than usual (though these low sunspot periods can have isolated super sunspot events). Thus the Sun is slightly cooler now but later in this century it will be warmer again plus much more green house gases, thus super warming. During the Permian Extinction 1000 kilometers of volcanoes through coal fields caused severe global warming. Sulfur gas producing anaerobic bacteria swept the ocean killing off 95% of ocean life and 90% land life. The effects of ocean pollution appear to be causing the beginning of this now at a lower level of C02 in the atmosphere than during the Permian Extinction. This sulfur gas producing bacteria has gone from 100 kilometer dead zone to a 1000 kilometer area off shore of Namibia in Southwest Africa. It has begun off of Alaska too. A couple of psychologists in the late 70’s and 1980’s took several hundred people in deep hypnosis to about the year 2100. 2/3rds of the people saw a hot world with a lethal level toxic atmosphere. Surviving people were living unhappy lives in very crowded domed or underground cities. Outside the world was mostly dead. These people intuitively saw this when the fear was nuclear war not manmade ecological collapse. Book- Mass Dreams of the Future). We are killing this world and anti-ecological right wing fundamentalists and materialist economic conservative people who refuse to see this have minds controlled by the dark force of ego delusion. Their next lifetimes will be distinctly unpleasant. Karma does happen. You middle and lower class folk spouting the anti-eco propaganda of big business are blind fools helping those who are destroying your economic and biological support system.
Thanks for the info txbodhi, I think. That is to say, I hadn't heard that about the hypnosis cases. But it is believable with the stuff that's out there and at least partly avoidable. What a f**k up. I don't understand why idiot legislators get to rule on what is a scientific issue. YIKES
Legislators do not actually "rule" on scientific matters - they just hold the purse strings. The problem is that they also get campaign contributions from the energy industry, so even if they are not idiots, like Imhofe, they have a vested interest in restraining research.
as a correction, the unusually long and deep solar minimum is over and sunspots and sctive regions on the sun are now incrasing at normal rate.
You can view the sun real-time here:
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/
Simply fascinating,
A Petroleum society which intentionally deludes itself so it can keep making too many babies and keep rolling around in private carriages where the inhabitants can pretend to be somebody they are not.
Driving in a Hummer or a Limo or an RV?
You are saying: "My life is more important than your lives, this is why I surround myself with heavy metal at 8 MPG and live in a 20,000 square foot home or two. The Devil with your planet, I'll be dead before the air is unbreathable and the ocean floods in."
Tipping the scales at a portly number?
You are saying: "It's Good to be King (of the refrigerator, that is!)"
But the sad truth is, your poles are melting, and the last satellite your NASA tried to put up to monitor polar ice melt mysteriously exploded. And the existing one hasn't sent "reliable" data for several years. But every year the mythical Northwest Passageway is open for Supertankers straight through the middle of Canada. But your population doesn't know these things because you live in a Police State with a controlled media.
Beam me out of here Mr Scott, I've seen enough.
Spock - out.
Once again, the science community brings a textbook and a petition (and maybe a defense lawyer) to a knife fight.
This is a good point. Perhaps some of the non-governmental groups pushing for changes to offset carbon emissions should start making public the credentials of the deniers and the sources of their funds. And they should do this once a week, until the public realizes that the deniers have nothing on their side except money from the energy industry (which has been more than enough thus far).
Well, at least they say for the first time in the media lately that there are scientists who are not behind the Big Bang Theory.... (I know they are trying to be "fair") but I wouldn't lump those into the same group that oppose evolution. The Big Bangers even brag that there is no contradiction between believing God created the universe out of nothing and a singularity doing the same thing.
The Big Bang says everything came out of nothing, that we live in an infinite sea of parallel universes where if you think it, it is true... everything is true, nothing is a lie. The Big Banger scientists on TV are the same smiling group of about 4 or 5 shills for the militarization of space so that we can soon escape from the self-destruction of our planet because trying to save it is hopeless.
Star Wars is now the Big Bangs future depiction, suggesting war is also created from nothing where nobody is responsible but Big Bang/God.
War excuses pollution/destruction and the Big Bang Theory gives war and death the look of eternal godliness.... junk science at its best.
So, I must conclude: The Universe isn't banging, civilization is.
[The Big Bang says everything came out of nothing,]
No, the big bang theory argues that everything was, at one point in time in the distant past, compressed into a singularity. That singularity then expanded into everything that we now know exists, and a few things that we think exist (e.g. dark matter). How that happened is arguable, that it happened isn't.
Some may believe that everything can be compressed into a "singularity".
(Actually Stephen Hawing did say the universe came out of nothing on TV)..
What surrounds the singularity? it had to expand into something... but if you define something as that which began with the Big Bang (time and space including the compressed matter and energy of everything we see, feel and live with) than you are right on with Big Bang logic.
I don't buy it..
If the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, it wouldn't be dragging its ass around here...at least our local group of galaxies would not be racing toward the next group.
Gravity is everywhere and it is all in the balance of infinity of now is everywhere and the speed of light is slower than watching paint dry on a hot day.
We are a part of infinity and infinity looks the same distance in all directions, and that explains everything the big bang cannot... infinity is reality.
But you are free to believe... and thanks for listening.
and since you are interested here are some important links
Dark energy may not actually exist, scientists claim
Dark energy - the mysterious substance thought to make up three-quarters of the universe - may not actually exist, claims new research.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/6043414/Dark-energy-may-not-actually-exist-scientists-claim.html
An Open Letter to the Scientific Community
cosmologystatement.org
(Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004)
http://www.cosmologystatement.org/
[What surrounds the singularity?]
nothing.
[ it had to expand into something... ]
No, it doesn't have to expand into something. As everything that was was in that point of space and time. There isn't anything beyond the 'edge' of the universe, there really isn't an 'edge' to the thing as I understand our current model of the universe. But I'm not a cosmologist, you'd have to pose that question to one of them to get an answer, or rather an opinion as there is no certainty to this branch of science.
[If the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light,]
It's not. Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, now or at any time in the past was such a thing possible. Unless it was done magically, but such an idea has nothing to do with science.
[Gravity is everywhere and it is all in the balance of infinity of now is everywhere and the speed of light is slower than than watching paint dry on a hot day.]
What are you trying to say?
[Dark energy may not actually exist, scientists claim]
I believe that I implied that the existence of dark matter and energy was a guess. There is no evidence that it exists, but there is evidence that something does. What that something is, is not yet known.
I have posed that question to NASA Scientists but I find they really do not have a shape or model for what the whole universe Looks like...
Yet the line is, it has been expanding for around 13.7 billion years... but you see if it is expanding away from us at every point at the same speed, that puts us back to the center of the universe days.
So, the Big Bang theory to me is classic cognitive dissonance on drugs which is why they have to invent all these imaginary parallel universes and energy that if real (Dark energy) would actually increase the gravity field of the universe not push it apart.
But please read the info I posted... it explains much more scientifically than me.... I am just expressing my own views.
"but you see if it is expanding away from us at every point at the same speed, that puts us back to the center of the universe days."
No, that is not true. The 2-dimensional analogue of the universe is an expanding ballon surface with dots on it - and the baloon is is expanding at least as fast as it would take to circumnavigate the baloon with a beam of light (its a really big baloon, after all). A creature on this surface would see all the dots around him receding at the same rate, accelerating with distance, and would find no edge to his balloon universe.
Instead of questioning these things, spend some time (at least a couple decades, unless you are a hyper genius) studying the scientists arguments, including mastering the maths used to describe it. Then, if you have quibbles, you can present them.
Sorry but ya gotta do better than that.
The old balloon analogy proof is a bust!
But let me throw a curve at ya... they now think the universe is flat and by that they mean (I think) that it is not curved like they say Einstein said.
aaarggh!
The baloon thing is is not a "proof" it is a crude laymans analogy for people who don't have the time to master all the details of multidimensional, non-euclidian, geometry (like me).
Einstein (and all his contemporaries) beleived the overall structure of the universe was flat! That was the whole idea of his cosmological constant and it's formerly believed value of near-zero.
If you are actually referring to the curving of spacetime caused by gravity, this can be seen all the time in gravitational lensing (visit the Hubble Space Telescope site) and in actual measurements, it is indisputable.
Please don't open you mouth on a subject unless you know at least something about it.
[Einstein (and all his contemporaries) beleived the overall structure of the universe was flat! That was the whole idea of his cosmological constant and it's formerly believed value of near-zero]
Well, actually E believed - as did all other scientists of the time 1915 - that the universe was static, that it didn't change. But his theory of general relativity in 1915 required that the universe either be expanding or contracting, hence he made what he later called the biggest mistake of his life and added the CC.
[Please don't open you mouth on a subject unless you know at least something about it.]
methinks that's why he's not getting answers from the actual scientists, of course, if he asked a BS or a grad student he'd have much better luck.
Of course gravataional lensing yes gravity bends and can slow light too.
a glass lens does that too. The speed of light depends on the medium it passes through.... that ol red shift again.
Longer, cooler light can be detected much farther away like infra red and radio just like lower sound waves travel louder over distance..
space is a sea of energy gas dust and matter of all kinds and light has to travel through it....and it is slow compared to what it has to light up.
Open your mind a bit and tell me how you compress all the galaxies and energy of the universe down to a "singularity" what is it and how did it get there?.... now open your big mouth about that. They say a black hole with the density of the earth would be the size of a volley ball... well how does the singularity before it Bangs compress all of the universe into that little space... that is what the Big Bang says is how it all began, well enough fairy tales.... and now it is time to go to sleep.... Goodnight and sweet dreams.
Actually, the expansion of spacetime CAN be faster than light - because we are only expanding a "metric" not the matter or information-carrying energy embedded in space. For example, during the 10^-32 second long "inflation" phase of the Big Bang, the universe expanded from the size of an atom to 100 million light years across. That a lot faser than the speed of light.
Look it up - Wikipedia is your friend!
(on scientific matters anyway - on political-economic matters, its global Ayn Randish-libertarian bias really bothers me.)
I have already checked with NASA and not only has that light according to the colorful diagrams traveled that fast, but we just topped it. We must have travelled faster than that light for that light, the birth of our atoms in our bodies, to take 13.7 billion years to finally catch up to us.
I think according to the big bang we are in another universe already... That reality that says time is only possible if it is possible to compress all the space time energy and matter in the universe down to the size of a single atomic sub sized particle... because the red shift means only that and nothing more..
(by the way they haven't got a clue what a "singularity" is)
If science is about questioning, I question the whole basis of the theory.
You are free to believe what they have programed.
Im outta here, I have other worlds to visit.
'(by the way they [sic] haven't got a clue what a "singularity" is)'
It is quite clear that you need to read and understand a little more before casting aspersions.
A singularity is precisely defined and known, to whit, a solution to Einstein's field equation that tends to zero.
It is the physical interpretation of this mathematical condition that is open to discussion.
"If the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light"
Not even close. The rate of expansion is about 71 km/s/Mparsec, accurate to within 4%.
[S. H. Suyu, P. J. Marshall, M. W. Auger, S. Hilbert, R. D. Blandford, L. V. E. Koopmans, C. D. Fassnacht and T. Treu. Dissecting the Gravitational Lens B1608+656. II. Precision Measurements of the Hubble Constant, Spatial Curvature, and the Dark Energy Equation of State. The Astrophysical Journal, 2010; 711 (1): 201 DOI: 10.1088/0004-637X/711/1/201]
Exactly!
And the theory is sufficienetly refined at this point that the "date" of it's occurrence is known to leas than one percent - 13.73 (± 0.12) billion years ago, and even a lot about the rates of the expansion.
I find Jim's remark:
"The Big Banger scientists on TV are the same smiling group of about 4 or 5 shills for the militarization of space..."
To be very dusturbing. It shows an utter ignorance of what science is, how science is done, and an "ideologification" of science that goes beyond even the AGW deniers. The people who developed the Big Bang Theory were astronomers, astrophysicists, theoretical physists - from Edwin Hubble onward, working in obscurity. They had NOTHING to do with promoting the war machine!
Hubbell thought space was empty back then ... and he always thought there could be another explanation for the red shift than only speed... now they have proven different red shifts for two objects connected to each other..
So of course Hubbell was not promoting the establishment.. The MIC uses info to their advantage and spin and they use scientists like they use reporters, generals, and grunts.
JUST LIKE THIS ARTICLE IS EXPLAINING. But this is their Job: "Full spectrum dominance" everywhere.
The Big Bang is based on that one single interpretation of the red shift... ignoring that light like any energy can lose intensity of vibration or tired light.
I don't think Hubbell took the Big Bang as gospel or Einstein either . I believe we have been conned and I am criticized now commenting on an article about how science is controlled.
Does the establishment have a stake in how you picture the universe?
Is our system above that?
Would not the establishment want you to believe they have the fundamental answers when the "answers" gives them stronger authority image ?
I think it is an old fashioned given... and it is what the above article is about.
[Hubbell thought space was empty back then ]
Ummm, didn't some of the scientists of the era before spaceshots think that the earth moved thru something called ether? They didn't know what ether was, exactly, but they did think it was there.
[Does the establishment have a stake in how you picture the universe?]
The religious establishment, certainly it does. The political establishment, not so much as long as you continue to pay your taxes and don't shoot at the politicians or their friends (or other taxpayers...).
[Is our system above that?]
Given the recent use of torture by the us gov't and its reluctance to grant fair trials to people accused of crimes, there isn't much below your system is there?
[Would not the establishment want you to believe they have the fundamental answers when the "answers" gives them stronger authority image ?]
Again, the Churches will care about that sort of thing. But the state wants you to pay taxes and send cannon fodder. Cosmology doesn't threaten the goal of the state, but it does affect the goals of the priests.
The Church is not creating weapons for space.
Religion is more than the Church.
NASA is a part of the MIC.