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TechnoratiNo "Bailout" for The World's Poorest
UNITED NATIONS - As a spreading financial crisis threatens to deepen the economic recession in the United States, the news of an unprecedented 700-billion-dollar bailout package reverberated through the corridors of the United Nations last week as over 100 world leaders gathered in New York for the annual talk-fest: the 63rd session of the General Assembly.
![[Michael Douglas as Gordon Gecko in the 1987 film "Wall Street." His speech to a meeting of stock traders is still considered a classic on Wall Street: "The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works." (File photo)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/Gordon Gekko.jpg "Gordon Gekko.jpg")
At a time when the United Nations is seeking increased financial assistance from rich nations to help developing countries meet the faltering Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), including a 50-percent reduction on extreme poverty and hunger by 2015, the current U.S. economic crisis and its predictably negative fallout overseas is expected to be a major setback.
Addressing delegates last week, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon warned that the current gloomy outlook threatens the well-being of billions of people, "none more so than the poorest of the poor."
"This only compounds the damage [already] being caused by much higher prices for food and fuel", he added.
Ban has called for 72 billion dollars per year in additional external financing to achieve the MDGs by 2015.
As one Asian delegate put it: "The 72 billion is peanuts compared to the 700 billion the White House wants to dish out to save some of the Wall Street firms from going belly up."
"And the urgent needs of developing nations will now be the least of the priorities of the United States and other Western donors," he predicted.
Father Miguel d'Escoto Brockman of Nicaragua, the newly-elected president of the General Assembly, warned that the current financial crisis will have "very serious consequences" that will impede the significant progress, "if indeed any progress is made", towards the targets established by the MDGs, "which are themselves insufficient".
"It is always the poor who pay the price for the unbridled greed and irresponsibility of the powerful," he said, taking a passing shot at the staggering 700-billion-dollar bailout proposed by the administration of President George W. Bush to save the high-stakes investment banks of New York from bankruptcy and collapse.
Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg told delegates that "money doesn't seem to be a problem, when the problem is money".
"Let us look for a moment at what is happening on Wall Street and in financial markets around the world. There, unsound investment threatens the homes and jobs of the middle class," he added.
There is something fundamentally wrong, he argued, "when money seems to be abundant, but funds for investment in people seem so short in supply".
Jamaican Prime Minister Bruce Golding told the General Assembly that the crisis currently rocking the world's financial markets reflects the inadequacy of the regulatory structures that are essential to the effective functioning of any market.
But it is more than that. It represents the failure on the part of the international financial system to facilitate the flow of resources into areas where they can produce real wealth -- not paper wealth, he added.
Golding said the world is not short of capital: "What it lacks are the mechanisms to ensure the efficient utilisation of that capital."
As the economic meltdown in the United States continues, the casualties are piling up both among commercial and investment banks: Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers and Washington Mutual (allowed to collapse with no government bailout); American International Group, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley (allowed to survive with emergency financial assistance, including some from the government); Merrill Lynch has been folded into Bank of America and Citigroup has taken over Wachovia Bank.
The outrage against Wall Street, described as the world's financial capital, is also directed at the high salaried chief executive officers and the middle rung bosses who make multi-million-dollar salaries, with stock options and perks that set them up in a privileged class by themselves.
According to one report, the lowest salary on Wall Street was around 280,000 dollars a year in a country where the average low or middle class employee would go home with a pay packet of 50,000 or 75,000 dollars per year.
In 2007, the chief executive officer (CEO) of Goldman Sachs, Lloyd Blankfein, was paid 68.7 million dollars -- described as "the most ever for a Wall Street CEO."
As the entire U.S. economic edifice is in danger of collapsing, the White House has been called upon to save some of the biggest financial institutions in the country and, at the same time, redress the excesses of Wall Street business tycoons who earned multi-million-dollar salaries and extravagant bonuses.
The greed factor in the crisis is that these same tycoons, who are responsible for mismanaging their companies, still insist on continuing with their same lavish lifestyles and lofty salaries even after the massive taxpayer-funded bailout.
But these salaries and bonuses are likely to be curbed as part a return for the bailout package.
Addressing the 192-member General Assembly last week, the President of Brazil Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said the economy of any country is "too serious an undertaking to be left in the hands of speculators".
Ethics must also apply to the economy, he said. But, unfortunately, in the race for profits, the ethical factor has ceased to exist.
The president quoted the Brazilian economist Celso Furtado who once said: "We must not allow speculators' profits always to be privatised, while their losses are invariably socialised."
And as a postscript, the Brazilian president added: "We must not allow the burden of the boundless greed of a few to be shouldered by all."
In the 1987 Hollywood movie 'Wall Street,' Oscar-winning actor Michael Douglas plays the role of a ruthless corporate raider, Gordon Gekko, who forsakes all business ethics to climb to the highest echelons of the business world.
His speech to a meeting of stock traders is still considered a classic on Wall Street: "The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works."
"Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind."
Douglas, who is the U.N.'s goodwill ambassador for disarmament and a "messenger for peace", was at the United Nations last week to participate in the International Day of Peace.
Responding to a reporter who asked him: "Are you saying, Gordon, that greed is not good?," a visibly annoyed Douglas shot back: ""I am not saying that. And my name is not Gordon. He's a character I played 20 years ago."
52 Comments so far
Show All"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works."
So?
When it comes to bailing out Wall $treet and "emergency" spending in Iraq, Congress will abuse its powers and try again and again so fast. However, anything for Main Street let alone the world's poor, is on the backburner. SCHIP and Employee Free Choice Acts are perfect examples. They fail and then they tell you that they'll wait until next time. Vote for pols that will always put Main Street first and not just when it's election season.
Thomas More, while he understands that markets have not really been free for 50 years, could learn from Lloyd Doggett and Ralph Yarborough instead of merely bashing Venuzuela about Chavez or other countries that accept socialism. FDR knew that socialism would rescue capitalism from its failures like Nader's father pointed out.
P.S.: All you Chavez bashers out there are still empowering him with your gas guzzlers. Give up your gas guzzlers and Chavez won't get his petroleum money and then you can complain. Until then, SHUT THE FUCK UP and acknowledge the hard cold fact that capitalism in America is RIGGED RIGGED RIGGED.
FrederickJohnson October 1st, 2008 9:56 am
I'm not bashing Chavez. Thats simply the reality. He's pretty much like any other South American strong man has been. Spread bucks around to your buds and urban areas, let the rural folks hang. It's pretty much playing out as it usually does. Remember he wasn't elected
Lloyd Doggett and Ralph Yarborough wouldn't come within a thousand miles of socialism. Doggett is absolutely an American. Ralph hated communism and socialism. He was a confirmed liberal.
"Just then a policeman stepped up to me and asked us, said,
Please, hey, would we care to all get in line,
Get in line.
Well you know,
They asked us to stay for tea and have some fun,
Oh, oh-ho, he said that his friends would all drop by, oo-oo-oo-ooh.
"Why don't you take a good look at yourself and de-scribe what you see,
And baby, baby, baby, do you like it?
There you sit, sitting spare like a book on a shelf rustin'
Ahhh, not trying to fight it.
You really don't care if they're coming, oh, oh-ho,
I know that it's all a state of mind, oo-oo-oo-ooh.
"If you go down in the streets today, baby, you better,
You better open your eyes.
Folk down there really don't care, really don't care,
Don't care, really don't
Which, which way the pressure lies,
So I've decided what I'm gonna do now..." -- Misty Mountain Hop by Led Zeppelin
I'd like to try to clear up some misconceptions upon which many posters on CD are still acting and reacting:
1) People keep using the $700 billion dollar figure like it's some hard and fast limit. Sec. Treas. Paulsen pulled that number out of thin air. At least one prominent, accurate market watcher has said the liability could reach $5 Trillion. [Source: Bloomberg: Swiss investor Marc Faber] This liability permeates Amurkan and foreign banks.
2) We cannot rely on foreign creditors to continue to loan an over-leveraged bad risk like the U.S. hundreds upon hundreds of billions of dollars a year to pay for our open-ended wars and federal operating budget. From Reuters:
"Chinese regulators have asked domestic banks to stop lending to U.S. financial institutions in the interbank money markets to prevent possible losses during the financial crisis, the South China Morning Post reported Thursday. The China Banking Regulatory Commission's ban on interbank lending of all currencies applied to U.S. banks, but not to lenders from other countries, the report added."
The foreign creditor tit is being withdrawn just when Amurka's crooked pols and criminal bankers want it most. Our government, our Congressional Chairmen of the Ways & Means and Appropriations Committees, and many of our people will soon have to go begging. Bush's unprecedented war-time tax cuts for the rich are still in place and McCain wants to make them permanent and ADD more tax cuts to them. Since we cannot yet beam in anti-matter revenue from another verse of the quantum polyverse, and the Hadron Collider has broken down along with our collective sanity, we're in much deeper doo-doo than has yet been officially allowed to come to light.
3) Team Bush, the Republicrumbs, Dimocrats and Big Media (via their think-tank thought police) are framing the crisis as a "liquidity" crisis. The richest one-tenth of one percent of Amurkans have been concentrating wealth (potential liquidity) in their elite class for almost 30 years now. THEY have plenty of available wealth to "surge" into the nation's financial plumbing--if they wanted to--and, thus, THEY control the liquidity. They also have $Trillions off-shore to live on while we are eating their dust for the next two decades. What we have, folks, is an INSOLVENCY crisis. Bad paper kept on two sets of books for too long and too over-leveraged by too many insolvent banks, investment and insurance firms. The GOP's "parallel insurance" scheme is special pleading to continue to keep the abyssal depth of it secret. This insolvency doesn't just affect big banks. Local banks have been exposed to an unknown degree as well.
4) Come Thanksgiving, no matter how badly your Republican relatives foam at the mouth incorrectly blaming poor negroes, Acorn, Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac for the mortgage crisis 'cause Rush told 'em so, there is no way in hell that a country about to go into collective economic cold turkey from years of off-shoring its industrial economic base; tax cuts for the super-rich during war-time; creating a false economy based on artificially low interest rates, deregulatory speculation and depending on dubious foreign creditors for our imperial operating money is going to solve ANYTHING with more tax cuts for the upper-middle- and upper-class. Obama's prattle about giving people who make less than $200K to $250K tax cuts will evaporate next year as fast as McCain's even more insane "economic plan" already has.
5) I've given up expecting any better sense from Amurka or the vast majority of Amurkans. Here in my metropolis local TV news is filled with stories about the police begging the lemming masses to please stop making false 911 emergency calls because they've run out of gasoline due to the shortages. Like the effing police are going to fuel up and send out a police car for every numb-nut who hasn't woken up and smelled the dying empire odor yet. These lemmings complain to their Republican governor to no avail and are astonished! It's too late now, but they were always too stupid to google a toll-free number to the D.C. Capitol switchboard. Far too stupid to organize. Expect food riots next year and the spectacle of Amurkans turning on each other and being subject to military and police crackdowns.
No bailout for the world's dumbest electorate, either.
Gee, you really don't like America, do you? Food riots here next year? Goodness gracious.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
America is an idea. I love the Constitution and Bill of Rights. THAT is the heart and core of America. Most of the current and recent electorates in America neither understand nor appreciate the Constitution and have earned my and the world's disrespect. Even our closest allies in the British middle class now routinely refer to "idiot America." The current and recent ruling classes, American Big Media--no, I do not like them. They have earned my and the world's contempt.
You seem to listlessly play both sides of a game to prop up the status quo. You want a little change so long as it doesn't rock your personal capitalist boat. I think you should do what Barbara Ehrenreich did for her book Nickeled and Dimed in America: Separate yourself from your money and take an entry-level service wage job (the ONLY option for most people entering the job market) and see what passes for America these days from a whole new perspective.
As ye sew, so shall ye reap. I call 'em as I see 'em. I will not be surprised to see food riots in this country next year and neither will people who have been paying close attention to historical facts and recent developments. Nor will I be surprised to see many Amurkans turn on each other only to be attacked by police, mercenaries and/or military units. Two generations of Amurkans have been conditioned by our permeating corporatism not to organize; not to think in terms of the common good--but every man, woman and child for themselves. Rush Limbaugh's "rugged individualism." That's not going to help them very long endure the looming economic crash whose effects may draw out for two decades. Our economy is no longer structured to be revived by ramped up war-time, war industry production. Industry has been off-shored for too long. We need a Green New Deal the scale of which neither McCain nor Obama have envisioned. There will be much suffering because of the American Establishment's systemic lack of vision over the last 28 years. But if you want to go on believing in fairytales about how exceptional contemporary Amurka is, by all means, knock yourself out.
I do believe in America, I know what it means when we are doing things correctly. And for the moment we aren't. But we will. Give us a bit of time. And call it what you will I prefer our system to any others I've seen or observed in place.
"America is an idea. I love the Constitution and Bill of Rights. THAT is the heart and core of America"
I'm glad we agree on that, it is our core.
As to Barbara Ehrenreich's book "Nickeled and Dimed in America" It was mostly fluff. I started in an entry level job so I don't think I have to take a back seat to her. Her methodology was terrible and everything she cited was to prop up her premise before she started. Its not the way she says at all, unless you stay in a job three weeks and move on.
Do we need change, yes....socialism, no, it simply won't work in our country.
I'll just hope I'm more right than you are, but if you are right next year....my apologies in advance. Other parts of the world may be in trouble though.
The people of the United States are struggling with a marked escalation of the class war. Maybe no one has a firm grip on "what is to be done?", to borrow Lenin's phraseology. But it is for sure a time to reject fatalism, defeatism, nihilism and any other current which involves the people in rolling over to die quietly.
If Karl Marx was right, we have reached the end times not of humanity but of the capitalist economic system. It is a time when the working class was, through its collective discipline and might, supposed to conduct and win a war with the bourgeoisie and establish its own rule. Then the building of socialism was to commence. War, racism and poverty would be banished in the ensuing years along with all of capitalism's pathological influences on man.
What are the prospects for this scenario? However likely or remote, the idea should not be given up on because the other choices are too horrific to passively accept--the Orwellian state, bands of survivalists roaming a scorched landscape, the extinction of the human being.
So it comes down to a must win for the working class and its allies among the petty bourgeois over the capitalist ruling class and its allies among the petty bourgeois (those among the intelligentsia that spread hopelessness and confusion among working people for 30 pieces of silver).
There are, it seems, two loci of power in the ruling class. First are members of the class based on the ownership of the means of production--the financiers, the industrialist, and the other human repositories of massive wealth (Gates, Cheney, Paulson, the Bush Family, the Walton Family...). Then there is the military high command and officer corps, the last card in the capitalist deck, without which, the civilian side of the ruling class is essentially powerless once their economic superstructure collapses.
An important question would seem to be, what is the potential for splitting the not wealthy military brass from their gold-plated masters? The rank-and-file soldier has already been deemed unreliable and so the formation and building of Blackwater, a private bourgeois shadow army. It's possible that rather than writing the bourgeoisie's errand boys in the Congress we should try to reach Petraeus, Fallon, Mullen, Odierno, Powell, Wilkerson and others and remind them of Cheney's five Vietnam deferments before they acquiesce in his commands to the brigade shipping from Iraq in October to serve as "an on-call federal response force for natural or man-made emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks" here inside the United States.
Meanwhile, on our side of the class struggle, there is admittedly no US political party or other formation which expresses the aspirations of the working class to power and socialism. Class consciousness would seem to be at undetectable levels. But think about it, would not the United States be the last place where a consciousness of themselves as a class would seize the minds of working people? That's what empire, that's what imperialism, that's what racism functions to produce.
Class consciousness can develop very quickly in a people though! It is on the rise in the US right now in the reaction to the proposed Wall Street bailout. It will accelerate as the material cocoon provided by the world's dominant economy wears out.
Workers, united across all artificial boundaries created by capitalism, whether nation, race, sex, or religion are the only hope now. This is the only force capable of staying the hand of the bourgeoisie and insuring the human experiment "shall not perish from the earth", to borrow Lincoln's phraseology.
In your circle, however large or small that may be, in everything you write and say, draw the boundary lines clearly for people between the opposing forces in this final class war. Don't confuse them with Democrats and Republicans. The ruling class is wealthy, we work for a living. Build our forces by raising class consciousness and giving every worker the best chance of making the right decisions in the battles just over the horizon now.
Very nicely said. The short answer of course is that Marx was and is wrong.
Marx was correct to see that--if there was a SINCERE majority will--that man COULD create a sane and orderly society based upon sharing and cooperation, rather than hoarding and competition. The problem is that it is impossible as long as the majority of human beings remain spiritually unenlightened. Human nature is anything but 'good' in its undeveloped and unconscious form. And we always seem to forget that it's individuals that form the collective, meaning that what is truly in their hearts always--in one way or another--expresses itself outwardly. Want to change the world? Then look in the mirror first!
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Marx wasn't entirely wrong just as capitalism isn't entirely right. Lenin said, "When we come to hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope." Kruschev altered that slightly, "Give the capitalists enough rope and they will hang themselves with it."
One once prominent old liberal Democrat who died earlier this year said, "We must always be suspicious of the Socialist's answers but we must always be asking the Socialist's questions." Why? Because they are questions about economic fairness and social justice that most wealthy and/or powerful capitalists (laissez-faire or not) will never ask.
"Marx wasn't entirely wrong just as capitalism isn't entirely right."
He was right about that, so my statement is incorrect. Sorry. Marx was wrong almost everything.
"Socialist's questions." Why? Because they are questions about economic fairness and social justice that most wealthy and/or powerful capitalists (laissez-faire or not) will never ask."
These aren't socialists questions. They are liberal questions being asked long before socialism was verbalized. And many captialist ask them too.
Prior to the Marxist analysis of economic and social classes in the 19th century, most "liberal" questions related to what would later be called "economic fairness" and "social justice" were couched in religious terms, were purely local in focus--not class-wide--and expressed by a too thin veneer of what would later be known as "safety nets" haphazardly and often corruptly maintained by churches--church controlled orphanages, work houses, child labor and indigent housing that was often comparable to 19th century slums. Very limited public dole on the government dime in Britain didn't begin until the second half of the 19th century (largely thanks to the earlier writings of Charles Dickens) and even then it was penurious and driven by mostly religious concerns. Secular public dole began in pre-unification 19th century Germany. Debtors' prisons were still in vogue. Indentured servitude and slavery thrived for centuries up to that point. The few capitalists who asked questions about economic fairness and social justice ignored women's rights and the rights of minorities and were grossly outnumbered by the capitalists who wanted to preserve the onerous status quo of indifference.
Some very good points in there. Especially about debtors prisons and Bond servants.
Thats one thing that really annoys me about Iraq...if we are sending troops anywhere I would have sent them to Darfur to end real Genocide and right on into the Sudan to end the slavery that still exists there.
Thomas More:
Those governments that call(ed) themselves communist, formerly China, USSR, were not socialist. They were planned economies. That isn't even in the same ballpark as socialism, or its more extreme form, communism. In the USSR, the government, the state apparatus itself, owned the means of production and set quotas. They did this as one way of controlling the population. In a socialist "state", the people, all, collectively, own the means of production and what is produced is what they people, collectively, demand. Socialism is actually very democratic, whereas planned economies are authoritarian. As for China today, the economy is still controlled by the government, essentially those higher up in the "Communist" party. There are some privately owned and operated concerns, I'm sure, but the really big ones, the ones that get noticed have a lot of government control.
The governments of the Eastern Bloc did not call themselves communists, they called themselves socialists. The Chinese did call themselves communists. The socialism you refer to, the democratic sort, is probably more properly called euro-socialism and is a different bird as you note from soviet style. I had the pleasure of living under soviet socialism and I will never ever ever support anything like it. However remember that even in euro-socialist states, the ownership of production ebbs and flows. It is not constant and sometimes it gets resold and there is a very strong corporatist tradition there as well. The best socialist countries today, were the best facist countries of the 1940s.
Very true. But I was speaking of the old communist, socialist, etc systems, the ones still being used in most places like Venezuela, Cuba, etc.
China is a bit of a new hybrid. One that bears watching. It could combine the best of all systems....We'll have to wait and see. China has real problems and it will be exciting to see what she does. How (or if) she solves them.
Republican Democracies with a regulated capitalist economy are forms that work for the average people so far. Thats an undeniable fact.
But I don't think for one minute we can't find a better system...maybe China is it. If it is, they will replace us as the world leader soon enough, even by 2050 perhaps. If not, we'll still be stuck with it.
It always puzzles me, thst, US voters rail on and on about Chavez (whom W and the CIA should probably stop trying to assassinate--you think?--I could give you links); when, at least, he was democratically elected. At LEAST, in so much more than Dubya was.
Chavez saw intl. corp. taking over his country, largely due to its supply of oil. The Venezeualan populace were benefitting very little. He BOUGHT out those companies (hey, you do business in foreign countries--dont espect the uS to bail you out--but the US govt always will), and one refused--Exxon--the price was too low. If you think that they refused to sell on "principle", you have just drank capitalist kool-aid and should be all for the bail out.
Chavez is trying to take Venezuela back for Veneuelans. He tried to get a law passed , that would allow him to run for "pres. for life" (you think Clinton or others woulndt have done that if they could?). This is the same trap Castro fell into. It happens wherever people are much too invested in ONE LEADER--President, Chairman, etc. (Including Obama)
Fortunately , it failed. Cavuto and the others FOX News puckos, were agast. "Well, I guess we know how that referendum in Venezuela wil go;;;hehe--what?? It failed?? Oh, ...never mind".
The entire Southern Cone of South/Central/Latin America (with exceptions like Uribe--Bush's free trade agrerement lapdog)is tending towards socialist democracy. Morales is not a true Communist, but, it is my guess, that, after the US rape of the Americas, that, Communism would be very prefereable to capitalism (moneyism) to the majority of people.
Capitalism doesnt work. It kills people.
Russia and Cuba were "communist" for say---2 weeks?
I wish we could nominate a president of the US that would care as much about US citizens as Chavez does Venezuelans.
When the oil money runs out, we'll see what he does. The rural areas certainly don't get anything from him.
Read up on the extensive surveillance system that the Chinese put up for the Olympics (happily designed and sold to them by the usual western players). They are on the way to a modern surveillance state, as we are, with high speed face recognition, cameras everywhere. Ten years ago we were experimenting with software to recognize body language so they could gauge intent to committ a crime - yes - the thought police.
So no, I don't think China is a good model.
Tanstaafl.
I was just saying we don't know how China will shake out. Capitalism will undoubtedly change them, how much. Who knows.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Also read up on this:
UN International Telecommunications Union & Global IP Traceback - NSA & China involved:
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2008/09/30-8
Canada is a Socialist country and is better off than the USA. Under Socialism you have more rights and freedoms and even healthcare. America needs to change its whole election and political system. You can't continue to have every politician on the take from big corporations and not listening to the people or ordered to show up and pledging their life to protect a foreign country or the the controled media will not let you get elected.
Maybe, but you certainly have your troubles in a much smaller country with a much less diverse population. And you could return to the "Compact" days.
I like Canada personally, but I wouldn't say its quite that perfect and there is little comparison between the two because of the obvious factors. Last time I looked Canada was not a socialist country by the way.
Agreed. Every time I've ever been to Canada, I've always been very impressed about how much better everything is there (lucky Canadians!).
So what do you replace Capitalism with? Every Socialist/Communist, Marxist form of government has been a failure now and in the past. There is not one single success story. None.
So perhaps it would be better to return to regulated Capitalism, a system that has worked for hundreds of years....not perfectly, but worked.
If you truly believe freedom and peace are your "right" without protecting them, thats illusion. There are simple examples of this all over the world each day.
Note what you said - every form of government - has been a failure. Perhaps there's something inherently wrong with a hierarchical system of authority, in which the unqualified or unethical may become rulers.
And, people successfully lived in groups with a communal emphasis, in many cultures, for what, 30,000 years or so?
Western capitalism is leading the human race, and many other species, possibly to extinction. In fact, capitalism-driven development is on track to destroy %50 of species in the next 100 years. That qualifies already as a major extinction event on the time scale, similar to the one that ended the dinosaurs.
Tanstaafl.
davidpeace and HH are correct. If you still believe in unfettered capitalism, after this past decade, you are either, very rich, or, youve drunk the kool-aid. The rest of the world laughs at us, over how stupid we are, that we put up with this constant roller coaster, shortened lifespans, crappy housing for low income, and, basically, since the bankruptcy and credit card bills (The other day's bill was just frosting on a turd), NO social safety net.
HOw long do you want to be an American idiot?? I know people who had IRAs (NOT rich!) and credit card bills that are terrified! These basterds did NOT play in a "free mkt. economy" anyway!! If these a-holes had to complete on a level playing field, they would all die in the streets. If we structure this right--)which I have no doubt Congress wil fail to do), maybe they still will. Give 'em a tent
They also lack conscience.
Examples of workable Socialist Democracies are EU (esp Scandanavia), UK (and al of its territories) Cuba. There are alot more examples of socialist countries succeeding over the long term than unregulated Capitslism (moneyism). I guess people will have to say it until people get it. Of course, the US never complains until it hits the upper classes/
Capitalism does NOT work for 95% of the pop. Capitalism = death for the poor. Capitalism causes people to do things (like go to war) that they might otherwise never consider, in order to make a profit. These corporations' only responsibility is to the bottom line, and , possibly shareholders. Now think about that over the long term---and this makes it literally impossible to have a just society with pure capitalism.
"If you still believe in unfettered capitalism"
Please young lady! Unfettered capitalism is what got us into this mess. Don't put words in my mouth. capitalism needs regulation or you get what we have now.
Cuba? Seldom are there so many people trying to get out if its such a wonderful place. Poverty striken but workable...I guess if thats what you want...OK. Venezulea, 30%+ inflation, the rural areas mired in poverty and abused by armed troops, economy collapsing...not a good example.
Look a little closer at the social Democracies you are talking about. You give up a bit to enjoy some things.
Many countries that are not capitalists go to war or surpress their own people with terror and soldiers. The list is long. Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Darfur, etc. Be a little less harsh on America. A lot of accepted "facts" aren't.
.Thomas,
Why do you ingore the Scandinavian countries with governments that are amalgams of both Capitalism and Socialism? They function at a rather high rate of efficiency and serve their citizenry by respecting the social contract that exists ( or darn well should) between the citizen and her government.
In addition, there are numerous nations who provide for the health of their people with nationalised health care, which one like you might readily interpret as a form of socialism.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I wouldn't actually. The Scandanavian models work for them. But I believe it wouldn't transfer to a multi ethnic country of our size and complexity.
Nationalized health care I truly don't view as sociaslism, just one of the functions that every government should do. Base health care should be available to every citizen in our country. If you want to call that a socialist orincipal....fine, I don't mind using anything if it works, no matter the source.
Socialism as a form of government never works (well it actually did among the Sac Indians....mostly)but its not all wrong.
Re: Venezuela
There was much worse poverty in Venezuela before Chavez--rural and urban. Paramilitaries working for the plantation owners abused people in the rural areas instead of government troops--who are mostly clashing with these private paramilitaries. Amurka's economy is collapsing. Venezuela is cutting petroleum deals all over the planet with Russian naval and aerial protection Bush is impotent to do anything about because he has so over-extended our military and his spending. Your propaganda here is laughable. I suggest you actually go and visit Venezuela and really travel around the country. Chavez is the most popular leader they've had in over 60 years except in the enclaves of the plantation owners and their armed stooges.
Now when the oil runs out--that will be another story...
Btelfare
Here is a novel idea! Loan the American taxpayer $20,000 each. It will saturate the economy from the bottom up. Wall Street will benefit without the greedy hands on the money. Houses will not be in foreclosure. Credit card will not be over the limit. There will be more on the dinner table than ramen noodles. I wonder if it would work?
Greed is a major sympton of Capitalism and it's god, the almighty dollar.
Such has been the blinding of the domesticated primates by the almighty dollar by the brainwashing of the ruling elite who magickally chanted "greed is good" over and over again through all forms of media that most of the domesticated primates believed the lies perpetuated by the darkness and lost their attatchment to what is part of them, the world.
With the almighty dollar blinding them the domesticated primates fell for all the lies the ruling elite and their shamans in politics and media and fell for the lie that they are free, silly domesticated primates.
The ruling elite, through their shamans in the political sphere got rich by their control of the military-industrial complex through the use of illegal wars in countries which held no threat to them by first using an alleged terrorist attack which was not even ascertained that the alleged perpetrators actually carried it out and then presenting ficticious evidence that a country which held no threat to them was about to bomb them which was repeated by the shamans in the media. Even when the terrorist story started crumbling and no weapons where found most of the domesticated primates clung to the belief that the shamans holding political office knew what they where doing and if they voted in the other guy that things would improve.
And now a financial crisis in the black-heart of Capitalism, brought on by it's own greed has led the shamans in political power to demand that the domesticated primates bail them out and that both potential new head shamans where backing the resident head-shamans plan more domesticated primates started thinking that something was up.
All the time this has been going on some more enlightened domesticated primates have been saying how corrupt the system is and that the ruling elite through their shamans have been working to enslave us and these enlightened domesticated primates have been ridiculed for speaking the facts as the majority of domesticated primates stayed asleep gazing at the latest ultra-rich bimbo who they are told they should aspire to be like from the shaman in the media.
There is so many people who have nothing yet the government have done nothing for them and now the ultra-rich have a bad day through their own greed and incompetency the government moves faster than a speeding bullet to take our money from us to give it to them - and they expect us to take it!?
Will things get better?
Will the domesticated primates realise that they are not free unless society is equal?
All wars can end if we take control of our destiny for ourselves and not allow the continuing rule of the elite and their puppets in government, media and industry. The ruling elite use fear to control us, they use hate to divide us.
We are all one, we are all brothers and sisters and we are all equal.
We can change if we do it ourselves and not rely on others to do so. It is time for us all to realise that we have the power inside us all to tear down this present reality and create a new reality based on equality with no leaders and work together for the good of all humanity and the good of the planet we co-habit with. If we don't, last one off the planet turn out the lights.
Freedom is our right, peace is our right.
peace and love
all is illusion...there is no government
The so-called free markets are anything but free. Well-placed regulations or laws make markets as free as possible. Anti-trust laws, not NAFTA or absolute "free market capitalism", keep competition alive and well. Rush Limbozo and the GOP has been lying to us all these years. Don't forget it.
If it wasn't for laws, would Bill Gates be wealthier than the thugs who would steal even his life? Laws keep things fair. Deregulation/lawlessness invariably helps the strong take advantage of the weak, whether it is on Wall St or some ghetto street.
A call to free markets ad infinitum is a call to return to the days of Kingdoms (modern versions are corporations) where the biggest theives become gods.
The free market is not free, never has been free or will ever be free it is an oxymoron to make us think that it is free (and as such fair) by shamanic media repeating that mantra over and over again.
If you take Capitalism to it's horrifying conclusion, you will find one corporation holding all resources there is and deciding who gets to live, basically becoming a god...and that is a frightening proposition.
We need an equal society without a ruling elite where no man or woman is better than any other - we just have to realise that we can achieve this together and reject this fantasy world which the ruling elite have constructed for us via their shamans in the political world, industrial world and media world.
We are all equal.
peace and love
all is illusion...there is no government
It took a Rethuglican like Ronnie Raygun to proclaim that "Greed Is Good!"
Of course greed is not good. Greed is one of the big doors to Hell. Remember that, neocons, when it comes to the end of your life.
What's the point in grasping for more than you need? When some people have too much and the rest of the people don't have enough, it's a recipe for trouble.
Ronnie Raygun didn't proclaim this, the character Gordon Gecko from the movie Wall Street did.
kivals: Pls do not "biologize" the problem: greed has nothing to do with evolution; there is no "selfish" gene and a greedy individual has no "advantage" in the biological sense, on the contrary he behaves like a cancer...
This crap is at the root of the laissez-faire capitalist ideology: that greed is a normal and good character trait because it furthers economic growth.
The scientific bottom line is, that we have primarily a social brain, the greatest human motivator is not greed for money, but a desire to be accepted, respected and loved. The PR-industry exploits this by making us believe that buying and owning certain products gives us just that - more prestige, more acceptance by others, more self-assurance, a better social status, greater attraction for the opposite sex, etc. From cigarettes to cars, from clothes to cellphones,even food is now marketed as "lifestyle" products.
Humans have good and bad character traits but social rules and the personal experience (childhood, school, job, etc.) determine which traits will be reinforced. For centuries money was just a means to an end but eventually capitalism turned money into a fetish: people who already have more money than they could ever spent invent the craziest schemes (called investment banking, e.g. betting on the rise and fall of prices (and manipulating them at the same time)of commodities (including food - not giving a damn, if this means starvation for millions of poor people)or creating money out of nothing (by selling dubious credit derivatives (packaged like Russian dolls)and betting on the risk of default,etc.)
The Wall Street crime is not primarily about individual greed but about a banking and economic sytem that has been absolved from all social responsibility and practically all moral obligations. Milton Friedman, the godfather of the "free market" orthodoxy said it all:
"The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits". As long as a fair share of these profits was returned to society in the form of taxes (needed to build and sustain infrastructure and public services) the capitalist system was not all bad but the "free market" advocates have sought to destroy this system by giving "tax and regulatory relief" to the profit makers. In the case of Wall Street "profit" was created out of thin air -through mounting interest and by manipulating prices through speculation - with no real value behind it.
Wall Street Bankers are what parasites are in the biological world: they grow strong by exploiting the host organism, but are completely useless in the production cycle on their own....
Here are two eye-opening videos to watch:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/29/is_this_the_united_states_congress
Greed in and of itself is like any other emotional motivation. It can be either good or bad depending on the situation and degree. There are reasons why every human attempt at civilization has encompassed a continual balancing act between the forces of private greed and wealth and the need for a political power center to regulate them.
Money has always bought status symbols and enabled the rich to create public fetishes. Wealthy humans have always tried to control the availability and market value of natural resources. The word "salary" comes from the ancient market in salt.
Some human beings may, in fact, have genetic triggers related to a predisposition to greed (similar to alcoholism) and researchers of the human genome and the brain may soon have definitive evidence of this. Tocqueville summarily declares that "greed has nothing to do with evolution" without offering any informed argument or evidence as to why this must be the case. If, as Tocqueville suggests, "we have primarily a social brain, the greatest human motivator is...a desire to be accepted, respected and loved" then why is the history of the human race written in the blood of uncountable wars? Why has most technological change been driven by war? Why is our most advanced technology created for military purposes? Why are our biggest government expenditures all for war? Even the internet you are using to post your opinions on comes from the Defense Advance Research Projects Agency. It just happened to have a civilian use as well as a military one.
Group I. Forget about the Wall Street geckos and their abetters in government. They are completely reprehensible.
Group II. But let's talk about more ordinary people in the US. There is a difference between the "life force" and greed. We do not think a robin is morally wrong for energetically building his own nest and finding worms only for his children. Part of us has to be that way - intensely focused on finding food and housing for ourselves and our nestlings. It is a healthy animal self-interest backed up by work and self-sufficiency. Sometimes it takes most of our mental and physical energy just to keep body and soul together and raise children well. So I am slow to criticize people for taking care of themselves first and foremost. I believe you would find the same self-centered attitude predominates among people in every country in the world. Sometimes harsher.
Group III. There are some who tend to see / feel the needs of others, envision the present and future beyond their own immediate experience. Those should be the political and spiritual leaders of the United States. They are not, but their influence can grow.
At the moment, the people in Group II are angry at Group I, mostly because the worm supply is interrupted. But there is an element of righteous indignaton as well, an element of Group III consciousness. That anger can be re-directed towards a longing for peace, economic justice and loving stewardship of the earth. People have to see the possibility and necessity of change. The fact that letters and phone calls changed the course of events ever so slightly is the first big public encouraging thing that has happened in years.
So the point of this ridiculously simplistic analysis is - it is horrible that we sit by while our government kills people all over the world. Inaction in the face of such brutality is tragic. But it is extremely hard to keep people motivated about other people's troubles, especially people who seem different by race, culture or geography. Always has been. The same group that is organizing the contract killing all over the world is the same group that has brought this economic debacle home. We must make the connection. It is a danger to all to let the maniacs continue to rule.
Joe
GREED, LIE, FRAUD, MISLEAD, DECEIVE,
Sadly has become The American Way...
http://www.wisecountyissues.com
Sean Hannity, shut the fuck up !!!
Greed is good, but money makes it evil.
Greed is only good for the greedy.
It becomes an excuse--people being called "Alpha Males", Type A's. etc.
Studies show that when you have enough , more does not bring happiness. Therefor, I think we can conclude that these people just seek money for money's sake, and use it as power. To be accepted , when they otherwise could not be. (Do you honestly think anyone would date Trump if he was broke?)
Sexually insecure people of both sexes (esp male), seem to think , "Well, if I cant get what I want, by value of my looks, personality, etc. I can always buy it".
These trophy wives they have are nothing but prostitutes.
We are animals, it is true, but our closest relatives. are the Great Apes--they dont run around "gathering up self interest". They do best when they cooperate. When on of the group refuses to often enough, he is reprimanded.
Amazingly enough, so do people, do beset when they cooperate. Voila --the highest standard of living inthe world. (EU) At a time like this, it is a good time to keep in mind, the real cause of the problem--capitalism.
Capitalism kills the poor. To me, it is just not worth it.
Obama is for the bailout. Not only is he for it, but according to Kucinich on Democracy Now Obama's also making sure that no provision for any type of bankruptcy negotiation that could be determined by judges in favor of foreclosed homeowners is attached to the bill.
That's perverse and demoniacal, Obama's now officially not only as bad as McCain, he's worse.
And let's not forget that Biden was a major force behind the corrupt bankruptcy law passed in 2005, designed by the credit card companies to stab consumers in the back and twist the knife many times over.
McCain voters are now the ones we should be calling Lesser Evilists.
I saw that interview. I have no idea why Obama is against it. So many of these "mortgages", were equity loans taken out by people who culdnt afford med. care, school, even groceries.
The MSM would like you to believe that all the loans were for McMansions. Some were, and they ruined alot of green areas. But, most were not. They should not be treated as morally equivalent.
It has been striking to me that throughout this "economic crisis" with all the hand wringing and threats of doom from Bush (extortionist that he is) that the American people are so upset, but they are not upset about the murder of millions of people around the world, and being complicit, most recently in Iraq, to protect US corporate interests. That's appalling, heartless, selfish, morally bankrupt.
When will we be greedy for peace? Greedy for justice? Greedy for our constitutional priveledges?
Why are we only greedy for cars, shoes, sex and watches?
What about a more sophisticated greed for higher values that serves everyone?
Why must we always stoop? What happened to a paradigm that makes us struggle to reach higher?
Who or what is responsible for our lowball nation?
In maybe its simplest form, the problem boils down to the fact that evolution, among group animals like humans, proceeds in an individual vs. individual dimension and in a group vs. group dimension. The greedy individual has the advantage against the less greedy individual, but the group with too many greedy individuals is at a disadvantage against a group with fewer greedy individuals.
If greed is not controlled, the group fails.
Yes! There was a babboon study on Nat Geo ( I hate that Murdoch owns it now!)--maybe someone else saw it. The researcher said that, over the years he watched the Alpha Males abuse everyone, and that stress levels were much higher among those submissive, and they died younger. But, when a virus struck down the agressives baboons, the submissive ones survived. In the end, they survived. No one wants to be one of the last two people fighting over the last potato.
They let the young know , in no uncertain terms, that grooming and playing were ways to relate, but violence, for hte most part, was not. (I know its sounds silly, but you should have seem it)
The "new group" was much more successful, led to a larger gene pool (before, only the top males could mate), and more cooperation. They were more relaxed asnd lived longer.
If "the meek shal inherit the earth"--the uS is doomed.
Watching, I couldnt help but wonder, what these Wall St. guys would do without their inherited and ill-gotten money. I think, they would die in the streets. If there was a level playing field, they would never be where they are.
This govt has allowed the working and poor classes to "sink or swim" for a long time. Now, let them compete with us.
When aggression/anger is aroused in primates, fat from smooth muscle tissue is released into the bloodstream. This increases the buildup of fat deposits in cardiac blood vessels. Chances of heart problem related death is raised. Some studies of this effect also note that the body's immune system becomes impaired, leaving the subject susceptible to opportunistic infections.
And with no health insurance!