San Francisco to Vote on Iraq War Funding
On November 4, San Franciscans will vote on the strongest anti-Iraq War measure yet to appear before the voters of a major American city. Proposition U, placed on the ballot by five of the city's Board of Supervisors, declares it city policy that "its elected representatives in the United States Senate and House of Representatives should vote against any further funding for the deployment of United States Armed Forces in Iraq, with the exception of funds specifically earmarked to provide for their safe and orderly withdrawal."
San Francisco was the site of some of the nation's largest protests leading up to the war, culminating in over 1,000 arrests for blocking the streets on the day of the invasion. And in 2004, 63 percent of its voters backed a policy statement urging the federal government "to withdraw all troops from Iraq and bring all military personnel in Iraq back to the United States." But with more American troops there today than on the day when San Francisco's voters last spoke on the issue, it seemed time to go to the polls again, particularly since, in the words of the Supervisors' ballot argument, "San Francisco has struggled to fund its schools, meet the health care needs of its citizens, and provide safety on its streets," while the Iraq War has cost "the city of San Francisco alone $1.8 billion."
As a local advisory measure (voters cannot compel their congressional representatives to vote as directed) on a national issue, Proposition U was conceived with one eye on San Francisco and the other on Washington, D.C. The city's congressional delegation has never adequately reflected the depth of local antiwar feeling. The late Tom Lantos, who represented the city's west side, was a flat-out war supporter. (Jackie Speier, his successor of only four months will not likely continue his hawkish stance.) The city's more prominent Representative, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, has been a more complicated case. Along with the majority of House Democrats, she voted against the war at the outset, then voted to fund it, proclaiming that "Democrats will never cut off funding for our troops when they are in harm's way."
Although Pelosi has since cast votes against war funding and was even recently joined by the generally hawkish California Senator Diane Feinstein (Senate colleague Barbara Boxer has been considerably better on the war), the scenario most favorable to antiwar forces portends votes on war funding that all of the city's representatives in Washington may find significantly harder to resist. Since Barack Obama has never prattled on about envisioning American troops in Iraq for the next hundred years like John McCain, his election at least offers the hope of ending the occupation within the twenty-first century. The fact, however, is that Obama's plan calls for "combat troops" remaining there sixteen months into his administration, with perhaps tens of thousands of so-called "non-combat troops" staying on indefinitely. Most congressional Democrats will need a lot of antiwar wind at their backs to resist requests for military appropriations in Iraq emanating from an Obama White House.
While aspiring to provide at least a gust to buoy the antiwar spirit of the local congressional delegation, Proposition U is also designed as a bit of an antidote to a type of magical thinking that seems to have come over some of the nation's war opponents ever since their massive protests failed to stop the war. In 2004, this thinking took the form of believing that all that was necessary to end the war was to elect John Kerry, largely ignoring his have-it-both-ways stance of condemning Bush both for starting the war and for not sending enough troops. (The Administration's "surge" has belatedly addressed the latter concern.)
In 2006, it was the drive to vote a Democratic majority into Congress that seemed to supplant the need for direct antiwar activity in the minds of many. This, although there was no genuine prospect of a simple Democratic majority providing the votes needed to end the war, given that a third of House Democrats have supported it. And, in 2008, the wish-the-war-away strategy appears to amount to electing Obama and hoping that he'll do what his antiwar constituency wants him to do, even if he's never said he would.
There is one way that the starry-eyed Obama fans have it right, though. What Obama's supporters believe does matter. It matters a lot, but only insofar as they make him know they expect him to act on their beliefs, and do so loudly, publicly, and defiantly, if need be. For the fact is that even if Obama's Iraq plan were far better than it is and his foreign policy team were not full of status quo types, these factors would not diminish the intense pro-war pressure he will feel if he is elected. Any Democrat in the White House can assume both a Republican drumbeat of accusations about undercutting our armed forces and selling out an ally as well as a steady stream of "stay the course" pronouncements -- like the recent New York Times opinion piece, "Not Quite Ready to Go Home" -- from supposedly neutral foreign policy establishment types.
Getting the Republicans out of the White House may be a necessary condition for ending this war, but it is far from a sufficient one. Hopefully, on election day, by voting in Proposition U, the voters of San Francisco will present the newly elected President with a real peace plan and remind both their representatives and the nation of the simple fact that the Iraq War will end on the day we stop paying for it.
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50 Comments so far
Show AllSnowWolf wrote: "After doing remarkably well for a number of centuries the people stopped doing for themselves, got all wrapped up in bread and circuses and relied on income from outside of Italy...in much the same way we stopped doing for ourselves and destroyed our industrial base (in the name of "Green") and won't use our own resources ...therefore we have to make sure the world stays reasonably stable or face some really dire stuff"
SnowWolf, your response is sadly off the mark. Something you might want to remember is that there are few things worse in life than aggressive ignorance. Your game is exposed and there is no need to spend more time responding to you.
Sadly off the mark and "my game" is exposed?...because you say so?...interesting concept...Ok
I didn't realize I was taking some sort of test....
perhaps instead of using your "I'm right, you're wrong and I don't want to discuss it anymore" tactic you might try to explain where you feel I am going wrong...because otherwise all we have is two differing opinions
SnowWolf, your response is sadly off the mark.
Oh...wait a minute...you were going to pull one of those tired old "Bush=Hitler" Cliche's out...weren't you (and you call ME ill informed??)
I think the Rome analogy is the closest...
As in the case of most mobs, he who shouts the loudest rules.
Comments here concerning San Francisco and militarism are so far off the mark they don't deserve response.
Having lived in the bay area 25 years I know it to be one of the last bastions of liberal thinking in the nation; that is concerning the common people. The Democratic Party on the other hand and Nancy Pelosi in particular have betrayed the people in who's name they profess to speak.
Common Dreams is a great name for this place because that's about all we have now. The Proposition in question is a reflection of this. Even before it is put to a vote we know it will do nothing, is non binding, and will have no effect on politics as usual in Washington.
Rhetoric, "bait and switch", anything to promise real progress to get elected only once in Washington to become insulated from the voice of the people and continue business as usual.
We, the people need to come together. The tone even within these comments suggest that is not likely to be happening any time soon.
I wish you well,
g
Now this is a sensible post with sensible comment.
I hope you are wrong and we can get past the deviseve positions.
For me it is not that you are so objectionable it is that your arguments are so boundlessly ill informed. You are an absolute nationalist. You refuse to look beyond the borders of a very short sighted indoctrination by some of the most practiced white collar criminals in the history of the US. This country has done plenty to aggravate and provoke for reprisal and yet you turn a blind eye. It is time for the militaristic stance of draining blood and treasury for the sake of profit to be relegated to the dustbin of history. Freedom through force is a misnomer. We aren’t fighting for that. You don't read outside of our nations history books if you think so.
Iraq happens to be one of the most egregious examples of the practices of the cabal of wealthy oligarchs. The list is long. San Francisco is simply bringing the hypocrisy of the oligarchs to the forefront. Obviously you don’t like that. In this particular article one of the most inclusive cities of this country is trying to draw attention to the need to fix the broken window and your specious arguments are always to side with the crooks who broke it.
Why side with the guys who tell lies.
I don't get it. How do you live with that kind of deliberate arrogance?
Why side with the guys who tell lies.
I don't get it. How do you live with that kind of deliberate arrogance?
I think Bush gets a bad rap because lies are told ABOUT him, not He himself lying
and it works both ways...the hard left is convinced that Bush blew up the world trade center in some sort of Reichstag plot to seize the worlds oil and the hard right thinks Obama was born in kenya and is running an illigitmate bid for the White House...BOTH of those are incorrect but people believe it with all their heart
*removed duplicate post*
1
First let me say that Iraq is settled. We were sucessful and our troops will be withdrawn. There is nothing else to be gained on this subject. If the Dem's didn't stop funding the war before, I truly doubt that something passed by San Frncisco, which like it or not, has lost the respect of most of the US, will have any meaning.
My comment on San Francisco was based on their refusal to obey our laws, the fact that they spend millions on transporting and protecting illegal aliens,then complain of a budget shortfall and horrible problems in their schools, that their citizens are gunned down in the street by the very people that the city government protects.
These are facts that I find constitute a lapse of civic duty and they are facts. I certainly don't think its arrogant to acknowledege facts.
2
The blind acceptance of American evilism is supposed to make me informed? I firmly believe there is more than enough blame to go around to about any countery you'd care to name.
Example....Slavery in our country is referenced from time to time as a point of contention, but I never hear the same people objecting to slavery in other countries. If its so terrible here, even though we havent had it for 150 years, why not try and stop it in couuntries where there are still slaves?
I'm certainly not blind to what happened that got us into this ill fated war. A place we should never have gone, but at the same time, I don't ignore realities.
Maybe we disagree on somethings simply because I believe liberals need to move on. Need to update some of our philosophies, get away from the 60's revisited. And mainly that we must start thinking strategically.
might be too late...
Disagree with them and you're labeled a "Right-wing-Whacko"
(which I know you are not)
good morning, by the way
Good morning.
I have found that the most important thing is for me to know what and who I am. And no, I'm not. Neither am I a left wing whacko.
There are plenty of folks at CD that are reasonable and are not idealogues. Plenty that are trying to find a way to make a difference. The extremists really don't count and I seldom comment to them unless its egregious enough.
I disagree with you totally about Bush and the war in Iraq, but I don't hasve to demonize you to disagree with you.
It's never too late.
Which is why I have serious respect for you and I actually read and consider what you post...and a lot of the time I learn something
don't go gettin' a big head now...*wink*
SnowWolf wrote: "you can certain;y be a peaceful hippie...this is America...more power to you
I just want you to be aware and grateful for the people who "stand to" every day...keeping you from getting your head sawn off with a Ginsu knife in an Al Queda recruiting video
because of them you are free to be whatever you wish to be...don't denigrate them
"
SnowWolf I'm interested in your knowledge of how civilizations collapse from within because of over extended military foreign interventionism. Any thoughts?
If I understand your question correctly, then I suppose that Rome would be the historical paralell...(bear with me)
After doing remarkably well for a number of centuries the people stopped doing for themselves, got all wrapped up in bread and circuses and relied on income from outside of Italy...in much the same way we stopped doing for ourselves and destroyed our industrial base (in the name of "Green") and won't use our own resources ...therefore we have to make sure the world stays reasonably stable or face some really dire stuff
I am not against staying home...but in order to do that we would have to drill oil, build nuclear power plants and use coal...these are all acceptable to me...but obviously not to the majority on this forum
I will remind you though...whenever the U.S. has been more isolationist the end result has been world wars
I know this was a rhetorical question to see where my head was at...does that help?
"Getting the Republicans out of the White House may be a necessary condition for ending this war, but it is far from a sufficient one."
Right! The Democrats have to go too.
Scratch Open A Cynic And You Will Find An Angry Idealist.
I wonder how long it will take for SnowWolf and Thomas More to be banished for "Inflamatory Rhetoric"? I wonder if clogging the thread with innanities will be considered SPAM? And when is one to know when 250 words are written?
OTOH, I find it odd that no mention of Cindy Sheehan's efforts are mentioned by the author.
"Inflamatory Rhetoric"?
You must mean anyone that doesn't agree with you. Gee you do live a cozy life all wrapperd up in your comfortable little world.
Do you have a specific complaint or do differing opinions just annoy you? I'd appreciate an example of what you are objecting to, or is it just empty complaining.
What example's of "innanitiies" do you have?
Frankly my friend, if you don't giove examples of what you label as "Inflamatory Rhetoric" or innanities then who is really practicing Inflamatory Rhetoric and posting innanities"
and precisely what about my rhetoric do you deem inflammatory?
innanities?....cute term...but hardly applicable
All we can do, is flag objectionable postings.
It's then for the editors-in-sky to decide, who has value.
No, we may "flag" postings that seem to violate the "Comment Policy".
Then it is for the moderators to decide what actually violates the "Comment Policy", and whether to remove it.
All contributions have some "value" even if only to bring together those opposed to them.
As far as "objectionable" posts, I would hope people would have the tenacity to engage them in debate.
Trolls are a price we pay for a more open forum, and I believe its worth it.
I also believe no one on this thread is a troll, they just have some mistaken notions.
Or were you commenting on the new "Second-Degree Freedom" format and I just missed it?
Have Fun,
-matti.
Hi _ M A T T I, __ part 1 of 2 __
Yes, I do agree that value is an intrinsic quality, and therefore ALL postings have some value.
Yes, mature and open discussion does require both vulnerability and tenacity, so it is presumptuous to exclude any on a limited understanding - and engagement in a debate is an added value to explore more facets of a subject, and perhaps branch out.
I would define a real TROLL as a paid agent provocateur, which although challenging to “prove”, is exceedingly likely in a world where PSYOPS is being used everyday on the American people ( by our gov’t and corporations ). Yes, the MIB do have different and even valuable opinions -- but the distinction that matters here is:
___ are they honestly expressing their own opinions, or
___ are they just a vehicle of mass propaganda, including the active suppression of certain subjects of dissent ?
My original intent was in response to the idea of disruptive escalation, of people now being able to FLAG another's contribution, and tit-for-tat responses.
"Objectionable" is what I meant, as the interpretation of those "Comment Policy" guidelines is quite subjective, and vindictive people will likely take advantage of "rat" FLAGGING, which will add to the already burdened efforts of "moderators".
__ part 2 of 2 ___
Many “Awaiting Moderation” flags in the previous CD environment, were never cleared, so they were a preemptive form of deletion, from all but original poster's sight.
S E V E R I T Y _ OF _ P U N I S H M E N T S
(1.) Some posters won't like what is said and will think less of that individual and take no action, or may respond and say what they think.
(2.) Use of FLAG capability, when falling “outside” of the Comment Policy -- or use regardless if person is overly sensitive and/or vengeful.
(3.) CD moderators review and take action – on posts FLAGGED _or_ ones that they view as objectionable. Depending upon perception of severity, the ACTION can be :
__ deletion of a single posting, or perhaps a selected few
__ deletion of ALL postings of that individual
__ deletion of that individual’s CD account = BANNING
__ deletion of future CD accounts, IP matching = BIGGER BADDER BANNING
I personally feel that removal of ALL postings made by an individual is overly punitive and degrades the exchange of information and synergistic added value, and thus collectively punishes the entire community.
Namaste
I hope and think you are wrong. I believe most of the people here are fairly non-vindictive so to speak and it would be a very small fringe that would be flagging everthing in sight.
Except for a posting that was filled with foul, vulgar and filthy language I can't imagine flagging anyones post. I know I've learned many things, changed some positions large and small from posts here. I changed my mind completely on Gaza thanks to some here. So it may not be a problem at all.
T M -- I agree about the people issue, …
… although I disdain your generalized " think you are wrong " statement. Your phrase does personally own the thoughts, which is far more effective than a blanket 'you are wrong', but it's inaccurate by being an unqualified statement -- which will OFTEN incite others to respond similarly ( too negatively ).
BTW, I didn't mention prevalence of vindictiveness, I only explored the new 'lay of the land of punishments', and punishers (2.).
I also believe as you do, in the innate goodness of most ( " trust, but verify " ), and similarly hope for the vast majority to stay at level (1.).
If you look carefully, many innocuous postings have already been FLAG'ed, and in my opinion w/o cause. Perhaps we just have one or two "experimenting with this new feature", and they'll eventually just get tired of it ?
If it were abused, it would naturally become a less effective tool, and consume scarce CD web resources.
Namaste
You're kidding.
"although I disdain your generalized " think you are wrong " statement."
I use "I'd like to suggest" or "I'd suggest" a lot. Thats not confrontational is it?
I am aware that I don't express myself well sometimes and folks get the wrong idea.
T M,
What you said is fine with me, I was just attempting to clarify where other less considerate responders might launch off at you.
I've attempted to improve my own sentence phrasing to avoid confrontation, and although that's necessary, it's hardly sufficient in all cases.
Perception is in the eyes ( and mind ) of the beholder, and our unique experiences dictate vastly different perceived realities.
Namaste
Gotcha!
whatcha ?
Namaste
Thanks Matti. Its nice to know that disagreement does not a troll make in your eyes.
Dear Madam Speaker, Cindy Sheehan, please get rid of this horrible stain in San Francisco's history once and for all, Nancy Pelosi.
I 2nd the motion
you are aware that even if Ms Sheehan was elected she would not become Speaker of the House, right?
she would just be a very junior Congress critter from CA and the Dem Leadership would tell her to sit down and shut up
i applaud san fran
best of luck
cheers, b
San Francisco long ago lost their sense of civic duty.
its a shame too...I have visited San Francisco...its a beautiful city
Don't worry, Nancy Pelosi will ensure that this measure never makes it to the table (she has always worked hard to keep her desktop clean for the incoming Cindy Sheehan).
Theres no point in even bringing the measure up...that war is all over...they are working on the timetable to withdraw now...and Iraq is a Democracy...the Dictator is gone...Tough fight but we won...
The (Global) War on Terror will go on...for the next twenty years...regardless who is in the White House
so do you think that all the death and destruction to remove and execute a toothless dictator, and former ally, like Hussein was worth it? Keep in mind US support for many nasty dictators past and present.
yes...I think it was...before we went in, nobody could say with certainty what he had going on in there
once the sanctions were lifted he would have gone back in the WMD business once more...
what were we gonna do?...wait for the toothless U.N. to do something?
the Georgians are waiting for the U.N. to help right now...its on Europes doorstep and they are peeing all over themselves in fear...ooooohhh...scary bear!
The next time I hear some hippie moan about how the U.S. spends more on the military than everyone else...this is why...our allies are just not willing to put their asses on the line very often
hello...WE are in the WMD business...and WE sold iraq weapons...and WE sold afghanistan weapons...and WE sold the whole damn world weapons
so what is your point?
if iraqis were fed up with saddam, its their business to do something about it... or ask us for help which they did not.
and yes, i'd much rather be a peaceful hippy than a fascist tool of the military industrial complex
you can certain;y be a peaceful hippie...this is America...more power to you
I just want you to be aware and grateful for the people who "stand to" every day...keeping you from getting your head sawn off with a Ginsu knife in an Al Queda recruiting video
because of them you are free to be whatever you wish to be...don't denigrate them
He doesnt have a point ... its a classic conservative response. Make a stupid ass statement and wait for responses.
For the record...I'm not a Conservative...I'm a Libertarian
I am fairly Liberal to Moderate on Social Issues but very Pro-Defense...because thats where Liberalism breaks down
The best defense is to stay out of the fight, and don't agitate others.
American foreign policy is crafted on greed and hubris. It is time to end this silly notion of being the world's police.
Not the Worlds Police but the Worlds Firemen...
Being the Leader of the "Free World" does carry certain responsibilities...However it would be nice to see Europeans pick up a bit more of the fight...before they are totally absorbed by Islam
MARS rules goes from
__ Missile envy
to
__ hose envy
Namaste
"its like they are on another planet"
Thank God for that. Imagine being on the same planet as all the other lesser humans that inhabit the good ole middle amerikkka like you do.
Newsom and his corporate buddies (fellow Democrats) will kill this measure im willing to bet.
it must be something in the water that makes San Franciscans delusional...its like they are on another planet