Atheists Vocal Over Moment of Silence Law
CHICAGO - When high school freshman Dawn Sherman learned that Illinois had a law requiring public schools to provide a moment of silence each day for “reflection and student prayer,” she was outraged.
Not because the law meant lost learning time in her honors math class - which would be 15 seconds shorter - but because “it was clear that we’re supposed to sit and pray, or sit and watch other people pray,” said Sherman, who is an atheist.
Along with her father, Rob, the Buffalo Grove High student has filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the law, which some Illinois school boards have raced to embrace and others have defied.
“I don’t go to school to talk to God,” she said. “I’m in school to learn.”
The debate reflects a longstanding national fight over school prayer. The Supreme Court in 1962 ruled that official sponsorship or endorsement of prayer in schools is a violation of the First Amendment. Over time, state lawmakers found that they were allowed to require moments of silence as long as students were not forced or encouraged to pray.
But there were limits: In the mid-1980s, an Alabama mandatory “moment of silence” law was found unconstitutional by the high court because “there was a clear legislative record that they were trying to advocate getting prayer back into schools,” said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington.
“Since then, legislators have been far more careful about what they’re saying about why such measures are pushed forward,” Haynes said.
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia also require such moments of quiet in the classroom. In more than 20 other states, teachers are allowed to decide whether they want such a classroom time-out.
US District Judge Robert W. Gettleman in Illinois is set to hear oral arguments early next year over whether to grant class-action status to the Shermans’s case.
In the meantime, Gettleman has ordered Township High School District 214, which oversees Buffalo Grove High, not to participate in the moment of silence. He also has barred the superintendent of the Illinois State Board of Education from enforcing the rule or issuing any directive on how the issue should be handled in other schools.
Critics of such laws argue that they are a first step to threatening the Constitution’s separation of church and state.
“We heard a steady stream of complaints, from teachers to parents to students, in the days after the law went into effect,” said Colleen Connell, executive director of the ACLU of Illinois.
“We’ve heard about a principal telling students to remember veterans in their prayers or private reflections,” she said. “We’ve heard that teachers fold their hands and bow their heads, perhaps inadvertently, but sending a message to the kids that they should be praying.”
But advocates of the laws say they give educators a tool to focus their students’ attention and provide children a chance to reflect on either personal issues or the challenges they might face that day.
“It’s certainly a student’s constitutional right to engage in silent reflection, even if it includes prayer,” said David Cortman, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit Christian law firm that has filed briefs in the Sherman case. “It’s as if the mere mention of the word ‘prayer’ suddenly taints the law.”
In 2002, Illinois lawmakers passed the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act, which gave teachers the option to have a moment of silence in their classrooms as long as it was not “conducted as a religious exercise.”
The law - which supporters and critics agree is ambiguously worded - did not outline how compliance would be monitored, did not give school districts a way to opt out and did not specify whether they would be penalized for not participating.
As part of an effort to help teachers across Illinois gain control of their classrooms, state Senator Kimberly A. Lightford said, lawmakers tweaked the measure’s wording. It went from saying educators “may” observe a moment of silence to saying that they “shall.”
“What’s the problem? Every single time we meet on the Senate floor, we open up the session with prayer - whether it’s given by a rabbi, or a priest, or a Buddhist or a minister,” Lightford said.
Governor Rod R. Blagojevich vetoed the measure, citing constitutionality concerns, but lawmakers overrode him.
When the law went into effect Oct. 11, many Illinois school administrators raced to try to hash out practical issues, such as what amount of time constitutes a “moment.”
Others opted to ignore the legislation. In November, after failing to get a waiver from the state, Evanston-Skokie School District 65 board members agreed that they would not force teachers in their schools to observe the law.
© 2007 The Los Angeles Times
This type of petty bullshit is what gives us on the left a bad name. Seriously, who cares. Think about the hot boy/girl in the seat next to you or repeat a fact or a math problem in your head for the upcoming exam for the 15 seconds. We got far bigger fish to fry such as the war in Iraq, global warming, lack of healthcare, eradication of civil liberties, what crazy shit Bush is going to do next, etc etc etc vs. worrying what to do with 15 seconds of silence in school. Focus people focus!
I agree. its stupid. There is nothing wrong with a moment of silence.
Some atheists need to approach it from another angle besides being anti-christian or radically pro science.
Too much science worship is just as bad as too much Jesus worship–and often they mix(i.e.-born again christians heading the human genome project).
Buddhism is an atheist religion–which people would read up on the definition of religion and atheism.
I’m an agnostic myself, with Buddhist leanings, so I find a moment of silence a fine idea.
I don’t want to steryotype, but most professed Athiests in the USA I’ve met are a peculiar lot - always prune-faced, humorless, and scowling - like a throwback to Victorian-era scholars - and they seem locked in aan ultra-materialism that can’tget beyond a rather puerile view of all spiritual pursuits as just some kind of primitive mann-in the sky worship.
And, in most cases Athiests should not be lumped-in with the US left - many are social-Darwinist or Ayn-Rand types.
As far as science, I find a number of scientific disciplines, notably quantum physics, and cosmological studues, deeply “spiritual”. They have the ability to inspired a sense of awe like others get from religion. Furthermore, when a scientist reaches the frontier of inquiry, they usually tap into their religious notions in searching how to proceed. Nils Bohr had eastern religions in mind when he formulated the Copenhagen interpretation and non-locality, while Einstein was clearly tapping into his Judaism when he said God doesn’t play dice with the Universe. To the extent thet Bohr was right and Einstein wrong has been primarily why I find eastern religion so interesting.
senior counsel david cortman says it’s a student’s “constitutional right to engage in silent reflection, even if it includes prayer.” that much is beyond dispute. but what is equally clear from a straight reading of the first amendment is that nobody has a right to force anybody else to “reflect” along with them.
somebody once quipped that there would be prayer in schools as long as there were exams. what was removed from schools by the preponderance of case law was not prayer per se, but mandatory group prayer as part of the daily routine. enforced conformity has always been the objective.
as with the rejection of “creation science,” xtians will almost certainly point to this case as evidence that they’re a persecuted minority. it will become fodder for the unrelenting flow of campaign “news,” for softball questions from “debate” moderators to favored candidates, and gotcha questions to kucinich, gravell and paul.
you can almost hear the knuckles starting to drag out in the heartland.
hazmat - “enforced conformity has always been the objective”. You hit the nail on the head. And we could prove this by changing the law to allow kids a moment of silence at home prior to school. If the zealots behind the law are really concerned about kids reflecting in silence, a change like this would be fine with them. (And we know it wouldn’t.)
why must we always defend an atheists rights,at the cost of everyone else……?
seraphicmom - Why must we defend the rights of blacks, women, gays, etc., at the cost of everyone else?
Come on now, you’re not a closet bigot are you?
(btw, I don’t consider myself an atheist.)
I do think that atheists are pretty looked down upon in our society and disrespected. People would rather have a Muslim or homosexual as president before an atheist (not that there’s anything wrong with either of those two groups, but generally speaking they are the most feared by the right currently). People wouldn’t want atheists to watch their kids. Etc. Etc. So there’s really some work to be done on respecting the rights of those who don’t believe in a deity.
That said, I am an agnostic with (currently) atheist leanings. I enjoy Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and the like. (Minus the ridiculous geopolitical stances). However, I also think silence is a positive thing even if its secular. There’s so much running around and noise and mental pollution in our day to day world, a moment of silence can be a breath of fresh air.
I am a member of the local Green Party and we share a moment of silence together at the end of each meeting. We are Buddhists, Christians, and Atheists. But we all enjoy the silence and use it in our own way.
We have bigger fish to fry than this for sure. Let’s just make sure that students aren’t encouraged to pray, or forced to, or maybe are allowed to sit there and read if they so desire and I’m all for it.
Maybe there should be a moment of silence before each class. Inner reflection is always a positive thing…
If people don’t believe in god they should speak up. Fifteen seconds of silence may be irreverent to them. Ironic, isn’t it?
Where is the ACLU when we need them? This is just the type of case that they specialize in. While they have been defending idiots rights to protest manjers and moments of silence, chimpy has been wiping his ass with the Constitution. I get a big kick out of the ACLU emailing me for donations. Why does this crap get any press at all? Someone bitching about a “moment of silence”…where is Brittany?
jeeves,every atheist on the face of this earth,has the right to not pray and just walk away..they have the right not to worship and they can turn off the t.v. evangelists,just like i do.what i object to,is they force their godless(void) will on everyone else.
Perhaps commentators above forgot about the social dynamics of school. If the intent of the law is to allow prayer in school, then it’s not a leap to see how this becomes criticizing or ostracism of those who don’t.
Mary McGrory wrote an article “Beware the Holy Fervor of the 70’s” (I think that’s the title). It was about religious affiliation being used as the litmus test of business affiliations and useage, social networks, etc.
Samuel Johnson wrote, “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” Ambrose Bierce wrote
, “… and religion’s the first.”
What’s sad is that religious beliefs and independent of theocratic philosophies have given the foundation for some of the best of humankind. And just as surely, some of the worst.
Whether religious or not, if people don’t have spirituality, there’re missing an important part of being human. If nature isn’t an integral part of that spirituality, there’s a serious disconnect.
Getting back to youth, they are becoming more disconnected to the natural world. And without that, we’re lost.
There’s another point here. Why would the Illinois legislature mandate this? Why not simply legislate to allow it on school by school basis?–or even a classroom by classroom basis. A moment of silence before any class to focus the mind, what’s wrong with that?
No one can prove EITHER…Religion is flawed because it comes from MAN and can be manipulated to any end….Science is flawed because it can be easily manipulated and tends to not account for Mystery…..
The Religious texts we know are all written by MAN (emphasis on MAN, not Woman) over hundreds, if not thousands of years ago….all with Political agendas….they were not ‘written by God’ or there would be ONE translation, not the hundreds of Human translations (NEV, NEW Oxford, etc..)….
also, Atheists tend to be way too judgmental (so do Religious people) and tend to overlook the inconsistencies of Science in explaining the Universe….
NO ONE KNOWS……deal with it…or at least stop yelling at others who feel differently….one can be very happy being a Taoist and simply live….believing in ’something’ bigger than themselves, but never ‘knowing’ it truly….just being.
Can’t these people find something else to get the “vapors” over? They just installed foot baths for Muslims in my local public university- are they going to get offended by that and protest a separation of “Church and State”. Get a life.
seraphicmom and everybody else, but mostly seraphicmom - None of the atheists I know, including myself, force their will on anybody else. Honestly now, is your observation based on knowing a great many atheists on a personal level, or are you just fantasizing to make a wishful point to gain ground? I’m willing to bet anybody out there that there are several people in your life whom you love and respect who are, unknowingly to you, atheists. Most of my friends are religious because there are so many more believers in whatever than nonbelievers in whatever. We have a great time together. And just like any other categorized group of people, a small percentage of atheists, are uncompromising jerks. But they are unpleasant to be around because they are uncompromising jerks not because they are atheists. Let this moment of silence all hash out with those who desire to be vocal about it, which may or may not include you or me. Our choice. But do we need to dehumanize each other in the process?
I’m a staunch atheist, but I agree this is a waste of time.
Human civilization is quickly accelerating towards destruction, and all anyone can talk about is abortion, gays, guns and religion.
Within 20 years there will be hundreds of millions of environmental refugees, massive famine, the oceans will turn acidic, and the land will only be able to provide a fraction of the food we currently consume. Wars will break out everywhere over the lack of resources. It’s unlikely most of us will survive. I’d use my moment of silence to reflect upon that.
Defending the US Constitution is never a waste of time.
It’s not about which minority we are trying to defend.
It is the process of enforcing the Constitution that matters and kicking out any politicians that violate it.
“A moment of silence” has indirect but clear prayer references and is a violation of the first amendment.
I agree this issue will be brought up against the left during the general election campaign, because most (not all) aetheists and constitutionalists (e.g. lawyers, ACLU) reside on the left.
We fought the intelligent design case at the Federal court and through discovery found that it was creationism re-worded… check out your PBS listings for a mock trial based on the real trial.
i would defend your right to be an atheist=as far as you would defend mine-not to be. wish i were an atheist,seems so much simpler.john lennon said.”i only believe in me”that really narrows it down to a nut shell.syncronicity,i cant spell it but i see it and feel it all around and i can feel by the heat,that it emanates from ’somewhere’’something’ had to build this house for man….the presence and the vehicle that allows us to be squatters on this aether net=affirms that there is more………………..
Dear serarphicmom, Who is that “we” that you refer to who are always defending athiests? If so, you are doing a piss poor job of it. Regarding public tax-funded functions, sorry, but I don’t want to be made to “just walk away” and the framers of our Constitution would agree. Also, many thanks for that lovely, “force their godless (void) will…” Do you have the wit and education to conceive that possibly you may be a religious bigot?
Atheists always seem to strike me as being intolerant towards those who do believe in God. I have experienced alot of the uncompromising kind. Hopefully I’ll meet some Atheists someday who will act otherwise.
Myself, I’m old enough to remember when the phrase “under God” was added to the pledge of allegiance. I hated it then, and refuse to say it now. Most of all, I abhor religious people sneakily inserting their “faith” into public schools.
i dont think i am a religious bigot…i try on all shoes..but every time i try to bend that way,it never sticks.i am into science and have been all my life,i just dont see any discrepancy between science and a ‘creator (’not some old dude in a white beard)_……(i believe) science is an affirmation of creation or ‘god’,if you prefer.i apologize to your sensitivities,i forgot,you DONT prefer.p.s.religion and faith,have not much in common.religion is mostly ritual…….faith is an all encompassing optimism.
The First Amendment states:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The intent was to prohibit the establishment of a theocracy in the United States, where a church ruled and governed. So, the government cannot make a law establishing a religion as the state religion. However, it is also forbidden to prohibit the free exercise of religion by the people.
There is nothing in the Constitution that forbids, for instance, a biblical quotation or the ten commandments being put on a building. It does not forbid a Christmas tree or a creche, or a menorah, or anything else being put on display on government or private property.
In short, under the Constitution everyone has the right to believe, or not believe, what they wish. They do not have the right to enforce their belief, or lack thereof, on others.
A moment of silence in school or in class does no harm. The religious may think a prayer, the not particularly religious can remember a walk in the woods where they saw a deer. The atheist can open his or her book and study or look out the window. To make an issue out of it and get it forbidden is ridiculous, and is in violation of the First Amendment.
There is so much going wrong in the world to be concerned with, why is so much time and effort being expended on thought control?
Dear hereonhteres, I remember those days equally, the “under God” business having been the work of another generation of publicly pious Republicans during the repressive McCarthy era, and then having to be fought in the progressive sixties. Damn right, the public schools are PUBLIC.
I am atheist and do feel that the moment of silence is a pretext to bringing prayer back to school. Why is the moment of silence even necessary? Recess stopped in kindergarden. Anyhow, shame on those who wrote in and stereotyped all Atheist. Some atheists feel the moment of silence is no big deal and others like myself are opposed. We are after all human and have differing opinions as does everyone else.
Dear seraphicmom, Please excuse my angry tone, but you clearly don’t realize that some of your assertions are insulting. How can you assume that I have no faith? Humanism is a faith, a view of humankind that must be assumed, cannot be proved, in fact is difficult to hold in view of recent history but which I hope I will not be forced some day to abandon.
i absolutely believe in separation of church and state !!!!it is the cornerstone of democracy and freedom,along with free speech….freedom cannot exist and democracy cannot breathe unless church and state are separate……………man= designated to be caretakers of living (things)…(doin a helluva job,brownie)i am in a generous mood…i am going to take a hiatus,from the aetherous blogesphere and give the raven and the misanthrope a break.i am not “the enemy”and i do not want to participate in the ‘infight club’….there must be larger more pressing enemies,than i
there are areas in the u.s., that if you would refuse to participate in a moment of silence, (prayer), in a classroom , you could be ostracized, or shunned by your peers. that’s a lot of pressure to put upon the psychic of fragile children. this could be a slippery slope, and i’m sure those who are pushing for this, have that intention in mind. keep the prayers in the home or church, where they belong. religion should be a personal experience. why do you people of faith, insist on pushing your beliefs on everyone? i’m secure in my spirituality, and i have no need for confirmation. are you?
So I guess we should boot the Muslim footwashing facilities out of our public campus?
Actually!!!I believe we could all stand momentS of silence to our own and others benefit. For example, I don’t know who’s an atheist…and I like it that way. Can you imagine a less inspiring/interesting conversation over tea or down at the corner bar than on why somebody’s against something?
And I won’t tell you where I am in my Christian spiritual pilgrimage…unless you’re receptive. We all believe we’re totally awesome, full of feeling and sensitivity, well-read, discerning…in fact, brilliant and just the way a person should be.
Now, pray tell what’s wrong with silence? May the teacher MANDATE tests to those who don’t believe in them? Can children REFUSE to read because they believe reading rots the brain and stymies social growth? May order BE IMPOSED in a classroom despite children’s natural proclivity to be disorderly? Perhaps speeding and running stop signs should be permitted since we all want to be free.
How free?
Dear bligh, No
Dear lobster, Camel’s nose in the tent.
dcbeltway, are you willing to compromise your beliefs? if not, then why should others? your generalized remarks are bigoted.
Tony,
So? There are lots of camels all the way in said tent. That’s why it’s good to study the liberal arts and humanities. Then you have many thoughts to strike fire as they move around your brain.
I knew this story would generate a lot of heated debate, and I was right. For what it’s worth, here is my take…
I largely agree with those who conclude that fighting over “moment of silence” legislation is a waste of time and resources. In a perfect world, where the leftists and civil libertarians had billions of dollars and endless amounts of time to expend, I would say go for it. But given the limited budgets of most left-leaning organizations and individuals, it seems so wasteful.
That said, none of us should be too quick to judge. We are not in the situation personally. Being a teenager in our conformity obsessed culture is hard enough; I’d hate to see religion tacitly shoved in my face in school on top of everything else. And that is what all “moment of silence” laws amount to: sneaking school prayer in the back door, however minimally. Is it a huge deal? I don’t think so, but I might feel differently were I an atheistic high school student.
As to the argument about the personalities of atheists, I think it is VERY important to distinguish between openly and actively atheistic individuals and passive atheists (along with agnostics, deists, secular humanists, etc.) In college, I was very much in the former group; today, I am very much in the latter. Back then, I was active in the Duluth chapter of Minnesota Atheists, went to conferences put on by FFRF (Freedom from Religion Foundation), the Atheist Alliance and the Council for Secular Humanism, started my own atheist/agnostic student group at my college and wrote weekly columns for my university newspaper on religion. I was quite active. And I was also militantly materialistic, scientistic and against even the mildest religious belief or spirituality.
Thus, from my own experience and in knowing MANY, MANY active atheists in Minnesota, I can say that yes, most (though not all) were narrow minded and puerile in their hatred of ALL religion and spirituality (not just fundamentalism). They also tended to elevate science to the status of a religion (and men like Dawkins to the status of demigods). In addition, they fetishized the Establishment Clause to the level of idolatry. And, as PJD stated, many were Ayn Rand loving social Darwinist types who reveled in the myth of “Enlightened Self-Interest”. Indeed, one of the main reasons I lost interest in the atheist/freethought community was, as a lifelong socialist, I got sick of listening to endless diatribes about the glories of the free market and how lassiez-faire liberalism is the only truly rational political belief.
But active, overt atheists are not all atheists; not by a long shot. I still consider myself non-theistic (though I don’t brandish the atheist label anymore), but I’ve come to appreciate many forms of liberal Christianity and the social gospel. My political/social beliefs are fair more important than my lack of religions belief (i.e., I’d take Dietrich Bonheffer over Ayn Rand any day). Furthermore, while I respect the scientific method in the abstract, I treat the actual practice of science as skeptically as I do religious practices. And I don’t think every instance of religiosity in the public square requires an unyielding attack. Furthermore, most of my friends are atheistic/ agnostic/ freethinkers and hold similar beliefs as I do on all these matters.
The problem here is, the most radical and extreme atheists are the ones most likely to associate themselves with the label. And in doing so, they give a very skewered picture and confirm a lot of negative stereotypes about all of us who are unbelievers. It’s unfortunate, but little can be done about it.
May order BE IMPOSED in a classroom despite children’s natural proclivity to be disorderly? Perhaps speeding and running stop signs should be permitted since we all want to be free.
How free?
if there is a natural proclivity for disorder, I don’t see it. Where I’ve been there is a strong embracing of the status quo, arbitrary procedure and order. In short, we are dead to the system until we are the product it wants us to be. Until those same people break from the system, and its molding influence, I don’t see them as alive at all. Maybe it is naive, but I support anybody who runs against the ingrained, even if the monotony is inevitable, at least they try to live. Orders, repetition, organization, and normalcy, all are sought in the spirit of consistency and comfort, but they like anything else, offer no guarantee of enjoyment, no tendency for personal or societal success, unless you call what we have now a success.
Tim Kidd said
The problem here is, the most radical and extreme atheists are the ones most likely to associate themselves with the label. And in doing so, they give a very skewered picture and confirm a lot of negative stereotypes about all of us who are unbelievers. It’s unfortunate, but little can be done about it.
I agree with this statement, the same way the fundamentalists might skew a person’s view of their religion, the angry unreasonable atheists can skew the view of groups who don’t hold a deity, because the title encourages the consideration of a group of people and not an individual basis, and because people define themselves by personal standards, these types of generalizations are highly detrimental. It goes back to an ability to be tolerant, and to avoid generalizations.
I also want to suggest that Miss Dawn, high school freshman, might have a tough row to hoe. Who cares what she came to school to learn. Perhaps home schooling would be just the thing for her since she has written her own syllabus with the cooperation of her parents.
This won’t be the first time in life she will find that she’s come to a party only to find it’s not what she wanted.
I think one goes to school to learn how to learn…and how to get along with others and still make a place for oneself.
I remember a student many years ago who refused to do his assigned work in a mechanical drawing class since he’d already won his National Merit Scholarship based on grades earned up till that point. He made an F in drawing, because as he told me, his advisor, I don’t need that grade. I tried to persuade him to do his best the rest of the semester to no avail.
He reported me to the principal and said that I threatened his scholarship. I sat quietly while the principal read me the Riot Act. At the end of this I said quietly, “I don’t think he’ll last very long at that college?”
Before Thanksgiving, a dean sat beside me in the teachers’ cafeteria and told me that my advisee was back home…that he couldn’t make it.
I suggest a compromise based on the teacher’s being the captain, if you will, of the classroom. If the teacher wants to start the class with a moment of silence, or not, let the teacher explain the reason why and accept the praise, or blame, for the result. The kids will figure out for themselves how they feel about it.
Just like any other large group of people, atheists come in all shapes and sounds.
For example, my neighbors are Christians. They hang their Christmas lights, go to church every Sunday, yet they are still able to come over to our house for dinner and bridge without discussing religion. I think they are more representative of average Christians than the people who scream on TV asking for money, or the well-dressed teens who ring my doorbell on Saturday morning to explain why my beliefs are wrong.
Similarly, most atheists do not find the need to proselytize. They get along with religious and non-religious people alike by respecting everyone’s right to think and decide for themselves. However, the few who do speak loudly and publicly are sometimes the only atheists that some people even know exist.
There are plenty of atheists who are not trying to outlaw religion. They just do not want religion forced upon them. Do unto others, right?
I do not see anything wrong with requiring a moment of silence, as long as there is absolutely no pressure to direct the thoughts of the students or faculty during that moment. Since when can’t a teacher tell the class to be quiet?
Could this be a “first step” towards re-instituting prayer in public schools? Of course it could. But it -isn’t- prayer in school. Just as we can require gun registration without gun confiscation, we do not have enforce a 0% policy in order to prevent a 100% disaster.
It is hardly a question of time it’s a question of teaching facts,known facts through observation and discovery. Religion has been around for a long time under different guises and different rituals that it does seem childish to even contemplate it seriously that is why this student protests. She thinks in logical terms that’s why math’s is of such interest to her and like me she finds people who believe in this rubbish quite devoid of reasoning, it’s all belief.
I often wonder what I would say in a court of law when some moron shoves that book in front of me and says repeat after me, I would probably tell them the book means nothing to me which, in the USA would be like pleading guilty.
I’m not an atheist, but I believe 100% in the complete and total separation of church and state. Organized religion, which appears to me to have been used by the state as a powerful tool to control the masses (that’s you and me, my friend) throughout history, is what I’m really wary of. I think churches should be treated as businesses for tax purposes, and I also think references to God should be removed from our currency and the Pledge of Allegiance. Having read more than a little about the horrors of the state-sponsored Christian-on-Christian co-persecution in England during Shakespeare’s time, for example, I’m very afraid of church-state coalitions. Want a couple of examples of how modern-day state religions operate? Have a look at Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Why in hell must it be MANDATORY? Simple question!
‘In 2002, Illinois lawmakers passed the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act’
Did anyone notice the name of the law? It seems pretty clear to me what they are trying to promote.
Having been in high school more recently than probably all of the other posters here, I can tell you that I kept my beliefs to myself for very good reasons. Attending a public school in Ohio, not exposing myself as an atheist was important. My classmates were judgmental, if I was the only person in the class not participating in a moment of silence, it would be noticable.
Although, I might not have minded a moment of silence in school compared to the science teacher I had who quoted the bible in class.
I’m glad there are people standing up for issues like this.
The USA has to get over the god myth if it ever wants to rejoin the civilised world.
Faith is the mental illness dragging the USA back into the dark ages.
Any action that helps Americans to avoid becoming infected is a good thing.
Personally, I felt that a moment of silence was a refreshing way to start a class, however, I agree that it should not have a religious meaning.
Imagine my horror this Christmas Day, standing in a prayer circle with my devoutly Christian family (two of them are missionaries/pastors in training)… as an atheist. They insist that we go around the circle and individually thank God for what we have been given. I felt like running out the door and never coming back! And I love these people, and respect their beliefs. I just said, “Yeah, what he said…” seconding my 13-year-old cousin at my side.
Thinking back now I should have said, “I am thankful this will be over soon,” or, “I am thankful that my brain evolved in such a way that it is capable of logical thought.”
Now imagine a classroom of children (of all faiths) expected to pray…when adults can’t even share what they believe with their own families–out of fear that they will be ostracized by the people who love them! Why do Christians have to make a show out of prayer? I can tell you that the Muslim child probably doesn’t want to roll out a mat and pray toward Mecca in front of everyone. That might kill their social life in this day and age (regretfully). I know it is 15 seconds of silence… but it only takes one second to discriminate against those who are different from you. I respect people who want to make personal prayer…truly personal–by doing it on their own time.
However, I think it is an excellent current events topic to discuss in the classroom, so that children may understand why the separation of church and state is so important.
‘the world is my country and my religion is to do good’ (thomas paine)…i like this statement and it pretty much fits me…i don’t need to believe in a supernatural being or belong to an organized group with a book of tenents that i must live by…
i spent a week’s vacation painting the steeple of a small upstate ny church because i adore my aunt and uncle who have added for over 50 years…i worked many summer saturdays as a lead carpenter for habitat for humanity (a christian organization) and i assisted my incarcerated brother in converting to catholicism…i don’t think many christians would be willing to volunteer to work for atheist or humanist organizations…
as a non-believer, i am offended that the legal tender i must use in this country falsely claims ‘in god we trust’…how arrogant is that? i would say that that clearly violates the constitution…i just cross out the phrase and hope it encourages others to contemplate why someone would do that…i find it offensive for someone to say ‘god bless’ when i sneeze…it is offensive to me that every state and federal sector shuts down for ‘the christmas holiday’ but not other religious holidays…it is offensive to me when the folks on npr say ‘the week before christmas’ rather than the third week in december…it’s arrogant to dismiss other religions or those who do not ‘believe’ at all…
even the term atheist is offensive to me…it is akin to calling a white person ‘non-black’ or a dog ‘non-human’ or a christian a ‘non-atheist’…
sure there are larger, more pressing issues than the mandatory momentsof silence but i find that i can be concerned about more than one thing at a time…i very rarely talk about the fact that i am a realist because i have learned that most people are very intolerant of those who do not believe the way that they do…
“In 2002, Illinois lawmakers passed the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act”.
““What’s the problem? Every single time we meet on the Senate floor, we open up the session with prayer - whether it’s given by a rabbi, or a priest, or a Buddhist or a minister,” Lightford said.”
It amazes me that people don’t see what the problem is—so much so that I believe they’re just saying things off the cuff that they’ll regret on further reflection (maybe 15 seconds of silence, maybe longer), or they’re feigning ignorance, a risky game as people tend to be taken over by the roles they play. Personally I spent years doing Buddhist meditation, now I’m a psychotherapist who finds a lot of change happens in silence. I like the idea of silent times in school; not just 15 seconds but say, 15 minutes. Or maybe an hour. But we live in times in which laws like this happen in a context, and that context is pointed to perfectly by the name of the 2002 Illinois bill—Silent Reflection and Student P-R-A-Y-E-R Act! Yes, there are other crucial concerns—environmental destruction and global warming, looming wars over oil and water, and the ongoing takeover of the US by fascism. But intentionally or not, consciously or not this innocent silence-in-school idea is one small part of a comprehensive, aggressive and relentless program (make that ‘ongoing takeover by theocratic fascism’), and if you deny it you either haven’t been paying attention or you’re lying because you’re part of it. Camel’s nose? More like the tip of the police baton and tank gun barrel.
Don’t think it’s a judeo-christian movement? How bout that other “what’s the problem?” comment: “rabbi, priest…minister” or… I suspect he either wasn’t paying attention, which suggests it’s a dumb idea, or they haven’t had too many Buddhists on the floor of the Senate or Lightford would have known what kind of Buddhists they had—priests, monks, nuns, or some student who thought it was cool to wear the little two-fish-with-dots thing around his neck.
I don’t know what an “active, overt atheist” is and (I’m guessing) have never met one either. Sounds to me that these “active” types (as described somewhere above in Duluth) are mere anti-theists, not atheists. The vast majority of religiosos and atheists I know are too busy being themselves, getting through their days with one another in the most usual of ways. Hmm, come to think of it, I remember a friend a few years back - a self avowed atheist who attended some group meetings at some local chapter of whatever - who tried to get me to admit or verbally declare that I was an atheist. I explained that I don’t do handstands on demand and that I was too busy not caring about a self label to perform for him. Damn, I’m so hip, so wordly, and far better than anyone else, irregardless of my personal beliefs.
Hey, whose for burgers and beer?
For the record I voted for George W. Bush twice, and support Ron Paul for President.
That ought to get me tarred and feathered in here…
Food for thought my friends:
1. The Constitution expressly protects both free speech and the free exercise of religion
2. The words “separation of church and state” do not occur in the Constitution, however “or the free exercise thereof” do, in regards to religion in particular
3. A moment of silence is not religious
4. Look up at your comments, the hatred and hostility towards God is overwhelming
This nation was founded by Godly men who specifically came here so that they would not be persecuted for believing in God in any manner they so chose. What you are suggesting here flies in the face of historical fact, the U.S. Constitution and general respect for the rights of others (specifically people who disagree with you). Not very liberal of you, is it my friends?
What kinda crap is this? If an Atheist has no one to talk to, in a moment of silence, then let them just sit there and contemplate the hair on the neck of the student sitting in front of them!
How petty can a person be. When in the hell is enough, enough?
School-age individuals are required by law to attend school regardless of their beliefs on the nature of divinty.
These individuals are 100% free to express their religious beliefs during class time, and many in my personal experience chose with relish to avail themselves of this freedom. These same students are also free to express their religious beliefs through pretty much any non-interfering ritual or rite during all break and lunch times, in the hallways, in the lunchrooms, in the locker rooms, in the classrooms and offices of consenting teachers, before and after school, at Church, at home, and everywhere else in the world. Many of my fellow students chose to “meet at the flagpole” before school to pray to the Christian God underneath the American flag. This is unavoidably a political act, but that is another theme entirely.
So, with all this freedom, with all of this opportunity, all of this supportive culture, why is it necessary to bring any form of religious or quasi-religious ceremony into the actual class session? Does any student ever lose anything for not praying to God, for not meditating, for not thinking atheist thoughts during a regulated and ritualized quasi-religious performance before every class?
It’s all about the symbolic politics, the “culture wars,” and the re-establishment of Christian Hegemony. Anyone who speaks about this issue without addressing this core element is speaking in a distracted discourse.
My beef with moments of silence is that it is good cover for those who do not try to reduce the tragedies that inspire people to ask for moments of silence. It is kind of like tying a yellow ribbon rather than opposing war to support the troops.
I think I will wear a wrist band to promote that thought.
Respecting a moment of silence is not religious at all. Why can’t this girl simply sit there and reflect on her day or think about what she plans to do that evening after school? She doesn’t have to contemplate the universe. Talk about being ridiculous and militant.
I have no damn idea what observing 15 seconds of silence is supposed to do, or reciting the pledge of allegiance, or singing “The Star-spangled Banner”, or what any of that other ceremonial bullcrap is supposed to do. It’s pure time-waste to me; I guess it’s inflicted on the masses to enforce the appearance of our being happy, humble slaves.
I’m sorry and sad that so many of you take this nonsense so amicably. Why do things like this have to be enshrined in law? Why can’t they be simple, genuine, spontaneous acts of caring or feeling, instead of becoming government directives or a hidebound rituals? They lose whatever meaning they ever once had when they become a requisite and ceremonial act.
OK, so we’ll have a moment of (not-necessarily prayer) silence in school. And I will SILENTLY pull out a Spiderman comic and read it. Or maybe a racing form and SILENTLY handicap the daily double at Santa Anita. How long do you think it will be before somebody objects that I’m either mocking their beliefs, or not using the moment for the purpose it was intended?
Will I be admonished that I can’t read comics or plan my day at the track during the moment of silence?
Does a bear shit in the woods?
OTOH, if I SILENTLY pull out a bible and read it, who will challenge my impropriety?
This is ALL ABOUT the establishment of religion and must be fought without compromise.
Too many of you are caught up on the term “atheist”, and what you think it means and what you think “atheists” want. It’s really an absurd term. For example, take what one poster here said about “atheists”, but substitute some other “a-” term:
“A-alchemists always seem to strike me as being intolerant towards those who do believe in Alchemy…Hopefully I’ll meet some A-alchemists someday who will act otherwise.”
Faith — belief without sufficient evidence — does not deserve respect, whether it’s astrology, alchemy, belief in Thor or any other god decaying in the graveyard of mythology. And we don’t need special terms to describe people who want evidence for other people’s fantastic claims.
Be sure: those who work hard for “a moment of silence” or “intelligent design” in science class are ultimately after one thing: American Theocracy. And you can thank Jefferson and Madison and countless other (real) patriots that we have not arrived there (yet).
Next time someone tells you that America is a Christian Nation, ask them: “How so?…In the same way that Iran is a Muslim Nation?”
If you want your kid taught only science in science class, if you want to keep your freedom to practice your faith in whatever god you like, then you’ll fight to protect the First Amendment as if your life depended on it.
And for those who don’t think that the more strident strains of Faith are of any concern, consider radical Islam’s love for Martyrdom, and how this love has now tipped Pakistan closer to chaos, how it contributes to daily killings in Iraq, how it took 3,000 lives on 9/11.
Then you can whine about “atheists”.
Too many of you are caught up on the term “atheist”, and what you think it means and what you think “atheists” want. It’s really an absurd term. For example, take what one poster here said about “atheists”, but substitute some other “a-” term:
“A-alchemists always seem to strike me as being intolerant towards those who do believe in Alchemy…Hopefully I’ll meet some A-alchemists someday who will act otherwise.”
Faith — belief without sufficient evidence — does not deserve respect, whether it’s astrology, alchemy, belief in Thor or any other god decaying in the graveyard of mythology. And we don’t need special terms to describe people who want evidence for other people’s fantastic claims.
Be sure: those who work hard for “a moment of silence” or “intelligent design” in science class are ultimately after one thing: American Theocracy. And you can thank Jefferson and Madison and countless other (real) patriots that we have not arrived there (yet).
Next time someone tells you that America is a Christian Nation, ask them: “How so?…In the same way that Iran is a Muslim Nation?”
If you want your kid taught only science in science class, if you want to keep your freedom to practice your faith in whatever god you like, then you’ll fight to protect the First Amendment as if your life depended on it.
And for those who don’t think that the more strident strains of Faith are of any concern, consider radical Islam’s love for Martyrdom, and how this love has now tipped Pakistan closer to chaos, how it contributes to daily killings in Iraq, how it took 3,000 lives on 9/11.
Then you can whine about “atheists”.
I can understand why some people would see this as a “petty” issue compared to something like the war on Iraq.
But I don’t think it is.
The law doesn’t prohibit anyone from voluntarily “reflecting” or even praying, does it?
So the non-atheists’ rights are not being infringed upon.
That’s a straw argument.
What’s going on is an end-run around the constitution in order to force students to participate or to feel ostracized — and targeted — for NOT participating.
It’s another move to desensitize young people to arbitrary government control of every move, every moment.
It may be true that you sometimes should “pick your battles” but I think anyone who’s ever been in an ACTUAL battle will tell you it’s also usually a big mistake to ingore the enemy closest to you.
I think we have to fight on every front we find, with every weapon at our disposal.
You never know what effect a “little” resistance will have — like not giving up your seat on a bus, for example.
One of the reasons we’re in the mess we’re in is that we let the bad guys get away with “petty” things that set the stage for greater tyranies.
Just my opinion.
Liberty & Justice,
SJ
www.spartacusjones.com
Playing a little Bach or Mozart, maybe even for longer than 15 seconds, might be a really productive starter to the school day. Couldn’t hurt -
{{When high school freshman Dawn Sherman learned that Illinois had a law requiring public schools to provide a moment of silence each day for “reflection and student prayer,” she was outraged.}}
They should make the law say “reflection OR student prayer”, and move on.
{{But advocates of the laws say they give educators a tool to focus their students’ attention and provide children a chance to reflect on either personal issues or the challenges they might face that day.}}
I would like to see it 15 MINUTES, too, not 15 seconds. If American teenagers could sit quietly for 15 minutes, I think our countries future would be much brighter…
As it is, the average American high school student is more ignorant than what, average students from Burundi, Peru and Thailand ??
When I was in elementary school in the 1930s, it went without saying that we had opening exercises: a Bible reading, maybe memorizing a psalm, singing a verse of America and a salute to the flag.
Some of us were part of the “greatest generation.” I don’t remember any parents or kids who were angry with this tradition of opening exercises in public schools back to the beginning of public schools in this country.
It was a much more creative country then and a lot nicer.
I’m waiting for the day when religious entities have to start paying taxes (retroactive to the founding of the country) before they can have political opinions or clout!
So what’s wrong with a moment of silence? The word “prayer” should be left out of it entirely, that way people can be silent in their own respective ways and there is no reference to a deity.
It would be a good time of silence, to let out a loud fart.
PJD
Allow me to introduce myself: I am a ‘professed atheist’ - and I’ll bet you know no one who is quicker to grin than I am. There is nothing I like better than a good joke, including politically incorrect jokes. (I generally stick to ‘my own,’ and have a small but growing collection of Scottish jokes, as well as French.)
I like to believe that I can find humor in almost anything. One afternoon, I was describing to a co-worker how I came to have several fingers slashed, and I laughingly repeated my gestures and exclamations at the time of the event. (I had found humor in it then.) He cracked up, too, while another co-worker butted in to tell us how improper it seemed - despite the fact that they were *my* fingers. (She was ‘religious.’)
However, I resent any group’s imposition of their beliefs on anyone else. A moment of silence can be instituted in such a way that it would not suggest that students ought to pray. (Unfortunately, there are teachers that could not be trusted to refrain from making their bias known.)
Indeed, when I taught reading, I always asked my students to settle down, sit quietly for a minute or two, and ready themselves mentally for the task ahead. It generally worked fairly well. I have no idea whether anyone took that opportunity to pray; it was simply not my business. (From personal experience, I doubt it. Having spent eight years in Catholic school, I know that a lot of students did not pray during silent prayer time, and one can assume that kids haven’t changed much.)
I also take exception to another poster’s suggestion that this is defending the rights of atheists over those of others. It is, rather, a matter of not extending special rights to those that believe in public prayer. How would one defend the rights of atheists over those of others? forbid others to use any free time to pray? That wouldn’t defend atheists’ rights.
By the way, ‘others’ (above) does not include all religious people. Some of my theist - even churched - aquaintances resent the idea of inserting something they hold sacred into a secular setting: they feel it demeans both the tradition of prayer in particular, and faith in general.
This is in accord with the insistence of the members of some sects that they be administered a civil oath in court. It is, for them, not only a matter of the separation of church and state, but also - for some, primarily - a matter of keeping separate the sacred and the profane.
Some very religious people want to keep their religion in their churches and their homes. (In explaining this attitude, many Christians would refer to Christ’s admonition to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto god, that which is god’s.)
Heck it even says in the bible you should keep your prayers to your self and not try to pray in public to make yourself look better than you really are. That stuff should be left out of school. HOLY ME LOOK I’M PRAYING TO SOME thing where ever it fucking is…..
To make a point. I don’t mean to cuss. Every GOOD praying person here needs to remember they are not in HER school or HER state or in HER classroom with HER teachers. I went to catholic school and it was prayer time we prayed. When I went to public school, when it was time we went public? No, The fight is about respect. In public school, you pray on your own time.
how about congress allowing an atheist to start with a prayer, denouncing all gods and mythology.
The “moment of silence” is very clearly what has historically been known as a moment of prayer, and changing the phrasing of the policies doesn’t change this fact any more than choosing the name “USA PATRIOT Act” makes the legislation below the name somehow patriotic.
I obviously do not accept the prevailing mythology of my culture, and just as obviously my culture does not (fully) accept me. So it is, so be it. It’s never really bothered me until recently, until the fundamentalist psychos gained so much power that they now threaten not only the peace and stability of every nation on Earth but the very lives of everyone within those societies, including this one. Now, it bothers me a lot. It bothers me to my core.
Right around the time of the 1980 election, I was in US Air Force basic training. On our first Sunday there, we were “permitted” to go to invisible space daddy brainwashing services “if we so desired”. The underlying tone made it clear that we should so desire, without an explicit declaration of such. Of 52 young men in my flight (that thing the Army calls a company), 51 went. I stayed behind, and I was soon challenged by the Training Instructor, “Why are you here? You don’t believe in gawd?” He was yelling, of course. That’s what they (TI’s) do. I responded calmly, “Sir, whether or not I believe and how I choose to express it is none of the Air Force’s concern.” He was clearly unhappy with my answer, but that was the end of that. The following Sunday, eight or ten others stayed behind in the barracks. Six weeks later, only about a dozen attended services. I was curious, so I asked every one of those who did not attend services why they had gone initially but had since opted not to, and the universal response was “I thought it was expected of me”. I asked them why they opted out, and the universal response was “Because you did it first, and you didn’t suffer any repercussions”. These were 18-24 year old men. Little more than children, really, but of an age to begin making their own decisions, and they were unwilling to make those decisions for themselves because of the fear of some consequences that were never threatened and did not exist. Just the thought of potential peer pressure motivated them to surrender their self direction.
Also in basic training, one trainee who fancied himself a Sufferin’ Baptist minister would kneel beside his bed after lights out and not just pray, but actually “lead us in prayer”. He had a fine voice for it, very loud, full of religious fervor, a voice that boomed and echoed throughout the barracks. The barracks was divided by a wall into two bays and we were on the same side. On our side of the barracks, I was the only one who didn’t jump up out of bed and kneel in prayer, but on the other side it was about a 50/50 split. I asked about this, and again got the “… because I think it’s expected of me” story from the guys on my side of the barracks. Those on the other side, those who could not be seen by the self appointed minister, felt more free to make their own decision in the matter. Some who were on the free side of the wall knelt beside their beds with their heads bowed but resented that they felt compelled to do so. The self appointed minister was a trainee just like the rest of us, a young man with no appointed or moral authority over any of us.
Now, you tell me, how is an eight year old going to respond to the peer pressure directing her to bow her head and pray to invisible space daddy? Is she going to stand up and tell the teacher and her classmates to stay out of her head, or is she going to do what is expected of her? When her classmates take it upon themselves to tell her that she’s going to hell for not believing in their mythology, is she going to laugh it off or is she going to try to find a way to believe first in hell and then in the vehicle of her salvation from it? She’s not developed autonomy enough to fend off peer pressure, so of course she’s going to become another good sheeple even though it is not the course she would have chosen for her life in the absence of that peer pressure.
And is this how we want to raise our children, the future leaders of whatever might be left of our country? To always do whatever they think might be expected of them, whether it’s right or wrong, whether it’s of their own choosing or not? To always back down in the face of authority even when that authority is dead ass wrong? I surely don’t. I know who is doing the expecting, and how they operate. I grew up with it, and so did you. And when I look around at the nation of sheeple in which I live, I am disgusted by the general lack of backbone I see in the people around me. It is that general lack of backbone that convinces me that the democracy we lost long before our current puppet dictator got to sit in the big chair will not be coming back.
But on that off chance that maybe democracy will be restored for my grandchildren, I am absolutely opposed to school prayer even if the name is changed to “a moment of silent reflection”. We need to raise children who think, who ask questions and question the answers because those are the people who create progress. We already have a nation of consumers, of people who spend their lives working to buy things because they believe that their worth is measured by the things they own, and look where it’s gotten us.
Religion is a tool for social control. The more controlled a society, the less free are its members. And we here in America are more controlled and less free every day thanks to the religious zealots who are firmly in control.
That’s why 15 second a day of “silent reflection” is a bad thing, and why I am opposed to it. If you want your kid to pray, make time for it at home. If you don’t want your kid to be forced to pray, fight to eliminate school prayer even when it’s behind the facade of a euphemism.
KEM I concur on the fart, but in the spirit of the exercise, it should be a SILENT but deadly!
This is all beancounting, 15 seconds of silence is not something to get panties in a wad about. Yes I see the possibility of slippery slope of erasing the separation of church and state yada yada yada. But really this is the type of a hot button non-issue like abortion or gay marriage that gets people all worked up,while ignoring the fact that this country is going to hell in a handbasket due to global warming, foreign policy, healthcare, wars, corporate irresponsibility, torture, etc etc etc. We got the Freedom from Religion foundation here in Madison WI and speaking as an atheist/agnostic (depends on when you ask me) I wish they would shut up, go away and stop majoring in the minors.
At the risk of sounding “prune-faced, humorless, and scowling,” or giving the Left a bad name by focusing on “petty bullshit,” how is it that the atheists are “ignoring the fact that this country is going to hell in a handbasket” by complaining about a stupid law passed by the Illinois State Legislature?
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”
- Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-82)
I see that progressive now means “profane,” “deprived,” “sadly lacking gentler arts of communication,” and “probably from the rust belt.” It’s a culture I think, and I’ve probably subscribed to the wrong newsletter.
I deplore the strident “Christianity” of the tele-vangelists and far right-wing zealots as much as many here do, but using hateful words doesn’t make far right-wingers any less hateful and doesn’t make the user less angry and DOESN’T MAKE THINGS BETTER IN THE US.
Those fearful of prayer’s being the camel’s nose take heart. We prayed in school up till the ’60s as a matter of course…until the angry zoned-out hippies. Everything’s not society’s fault. Some people are the author of their own discontent.
Why can’t we all just tone down the rhetoric (moment of silence)? Why can’t we all just get along.
I am late joining this discussion, but as a non-practicing Catholic who believes in a higher power, my personal take is that all religious practices belong in churches and in homes. NOT in the public schools. If parents want their children to pray or meditate, then they can teach them, and not leave it to public schools to do it. Religious practices are personal, not public. Amen!
Who are we kidding?
Since prayer was ruled out of classrooms, organized patriarchal religions have tried desperately to get it back in — in order to legitimize themselves and gain state recognition of their “gods.”
I would wish that those who support Separation of Church & State would turn their attention to the STATE legislatures which have “priests” on hand to conduct prayers for them and which taxpayers pay for. Same with the US Senate and USHR — let’s have these “god-fearing” reps pay the salaries and benefits for these preachers — which is more than $400,000 a year in the case of the USHR!
Pretty quickly they’d be looking for a volunteer!
I also think they should keep their “prayers” off the floor of the Senate and USHR — and pray in private, if that’s what they wish to do.
The law is a totally Unnecessary intrusion. Any student who feels the need to pray silently can do so at any time. Until the “Thought Police” arrive on the scene, there is no way to Prevent anyone from praying.
Anyone with a bit of common sense can figure that out with only a few seconds of “Silent Meditation”.
Which means that the opponents of the law are correct. The only reason for passing such a law is to pressure students who do NOT feel any need for prayer.
Heathen - very wonderful post. It summarizes what is wrong with even minimal efforts to enforce prayer or meditation or whatever.
I have good friends who are, like me, agnostic. They did not teach their children Christian mythology or prayers. When their daughter was in high school here in West-by-god-Virginia, she was on the soccer team. The team captain led everyone in the lord’s prayer circle before each game. My friends’ daughter didn’t even know the words, so she didn’t say it although she held hands with the others in the circle. She got a hard time from the captain who wanted to know why she was not reciting the lords prayer. In a culture where the vast majority of students are Christian, my friends’ daughter was made to feel like an outsider. This should not have been allowed, and it’s why we DO HAVE separation of church and state no matter what term is used.
Enforcing a moment of silence and prayer seems like an innocuous thing, and my first reaction was that this is just so unimportant. But the more I thought about it, the more it seems that it really is a kind of “foot in the door” in light of the religious intrusion and creeping control from fundamentalist views we have been experiencing in America during the Bush years.
And, by the way, there is no “god hating” going on on this site. There may be “god ridiculing,” which might not be nice, but it’s not the same as hating god. Hating god implies that there actually is such a being who deserves either love or hate. Atheists and agnostics are much, much more maligned in this country than any religious group. Christians of certain stripes love to see themselves as persecuted, but this is absurd considering - as someone pointed out above - that a candidate who declared a lack of “faith” in a higher power would be less electable than a Muslim, even in the antiIslam political climate in which we now find ourselves.
IMO, the law gives people the option of praying if they want to. What’s religious about a moment of silence? Nothing.
In no way is a law requiring a moment of silence an infringement on peoples’ right to not pray, and neither is it an endorsement of religion or prayer. You can do whatever you want with your moment of silence. This atheist person is just trying to make trouble for religious people.
If the atheist crowd had their way, they’d do their best to infringe on peoples’ constitutional right to practice religion; oppression in the name of freedom.
Reminds me of this Wiccan person who was part of a poetry list I was on. Everyone sent whatever poetry they wanted into the list, it was a beautiful free-for-all of poetic expression. Then some Christian guy sent in a poem about Jesus, and the Wiccan person attacked him, claiming it was their right to not have to read poetry about Jesus, and Christian poems should be banned from the list. Primarily because this Wiccan person hated Christians and wanted to create trouble for them.
Me, I respect all religious and non-religious people alike, and think it’s extremely petty when one side attacks the other and whines about their “rights”, when their rights are not being infringed on.
If it was enforced prayer I’d be against it. I also don’t think they should have the 10 Commandments in a courtroom, or try to enforce conformity to religiousness on the non-religious, or have prayer at government meetings.
But this law is not stopping anyone from not praying, and is not pushing religion on anyone. Nobody is telling this Atheist person that she has to talk to God, and the lawsuit is frivolous and stupid.
LeaAnnG, your friends daughter is a perfect example of the harm that can be inflicted by these radical laws. believe what you like, as long as it is not detrimental to others. in this case, it is detrimental to some children. that in itself, should kill this policy. your friends daughter should hold her head high, take a stance, and tell others to mind their own business, and back off. and that she will find her own way on personal religious issues. if they can’t handle that, thats their problem, not hers. good luck to her.
tweck, the very fact that there is a law requiring people to have a moment of silence, is an infringement on peoples rights. it’s a small step towards mind control. i trust that you want the freedom to think as you choose. i want that for you also. that’s what freedom is all about.
You don’t have to study the bible just the people who are guided by it to know it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. Just look at the USA and Britain both run by religious nutcases and both hell bent on mass murder and destruction all in the name of democracy. What democracy, a chance to vote in a rigged election, a media hell bent on keeping the status quo of a depressed society living for the most part in sub-standard housing some having 3 poorly paid jobs. Come on folks, wake up, stop being taken for a mug and get rid of the 2 party system and get rid of organised religion.
Oh! and switch off that propoganda machine called TV. and don’t under any circumstances buy a ” news ” paper.
Goodbye, all. AARGH!
Nobody answers the questions raised by others, nor refutes statements. It appears that a bunch of folk have gathered here to vent their collective spleen. Often, their spleen can’t spell and has its dates all wrong. But nobody seems to notice.
I guess freedom, in the minds of some, is the freedom to draw conclusions from made up “facts.”
Well, rant on,and rev each other up, and by all means, never ask another, “What’s your source?”
I’m surprised this is an issue at all. Government organizations, and that includes public schools, are not allowed to endorse religion but a moment of silence seems a reasonable thing. If an atheist fears some students may be sneaking in a quick word to God during that moment and wants them stopped, well… that’s fanaticism for you.
It amazes me the fanatical atheists cannot see they are very much like the evangelical fundamentalist Christians — a zealot is a zealot, and zealots just can’t stand it when not everyone sees the world the way they do. Christian or atheist, a zealot will force conformity via the law, if he can but fortunately, our Constitution is built to favor diversity and personal liberty, instead.
>>a zealot will force conformity via the law
Like the Illinois State Legislature did in this case? Silence is great, and more reflection is badly needed. But a law that says it SHALL be done sounds exactly like something a zealot would do!
The First Amendment of our Constitution begins: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…” Note the second part of that. It clearly allows students to be given a break to pray or meditate or whatever. I have always been opposed to government-prescribed prayer and Bible reading such as was practiced when I grew up in Baltimore. In the second grade I realized that my Jewish and RC classmates were being told to participate with a King James Bible and a Protestant version of the Lord’s Prayer. It seemed wrong to an eight year old. In high school our classes were more eclectic. We had Muslims too. Nobody should be running interference with others’ rights to freely have a minute of peace to silently practice whatever they believe. And it’s all constitutionally upheld.
No, Opinionated,
The problem was not that a student was ’sneaking in a quick word to God.’ The problem is with legislatures that willingly let the camel’s nose - and more - under the tent.
See my post of 4:25.
I don’t know of any atheists who want to prevent anyone from praying on their own time. However, the state is not allowed to put aside time for “silent refection and student prayer.”
Illinois is my state. It is interesting to note that this same state is not concerned with protecting people from negligent, dishonest, and/or reckless doctors that it employs, or protecting students from state-supported universities that illegally screw with student transcripts from other universities.
Perhaps they ought to worry more about ethics and less about when or how a student might pray. Unfortunately, a very large segment of the population, not to mention legislatures, insist upon focussing on ensuring public displays of too-often-false piety, but give no thought to teaching or promoting ethical behavior.
If you want refection and or prayer in school,perhaps a religious school is the answer. As I recall, we had lots of moments of silence in school, and no one had to declare them. The teacher just called you to order and you shut up and reflected till she told you you could talk.I remember because my tablet got closed between mine and my neighbor’s desk on one of these occasions and when I politely asked him to free it I got SPANKED for talking! In public school. Detention was good that way, too.
I work with patients in a hospital and I have to see their socialization and spiritual needs are considered and nutured and respected in a hospital that puts forward a judeo-christian mission statement. I take their beliefs very seriously and will do everything to see that they are not interrupted in worship by treatments, etc. I think they are entitled to respect for their beliefs, even if I don’t agree with them.
If only my own beliefs were so well respected by my colleagues. I don’t make a point of telling them I don’t believe in supernatural beings, god, santa etc. or that I find their faith incomprehensible.I am also, strangely, known for my ‘good christian attitude’ and was to be honored for my kindness and respect of our patients by a prayer group at our hospital until they discovered I am in fact a heathen.
One friend who knows my feelings and beliefs and was truly trying to be kind,wanted to give me a birthday treat and took me to a movie. The Passion of the Christ - and tried to convert me to christianity because she ‘loves’ me and wants me to see her in heaven. I wondered if she would feel honored at my concern for her when I wanted her to know the truth and invited her to see farenheit 911? The outcry would have been marvelous to behold, but she would have been offended, and she would have been rude to me about it, and in spite of her insensitivity and blinders on this subject, I do like her.Because of the filter of her belief she didn’t see how her ‘treat’ was offensive to me.
Hot on the heels of this event, same friend and a chaplain were getting ready for occaisons to mark the 4th of july and told me for our patients’ picnic( I was the staff member scheduled for that day alone) I should wear a red white and blue hat and carry a flag for the barbecue. I declined. They were puzzled, “aren’t you patriotic?” they asked. I replied I love my country but felt ‘patriotism’ done their way leads to unhealthy nationalism. They were not happy , and I wondered where they got the right to question me about my beliefs in this manner.
I think if it is ok to press people to respect a moment of silence, or a prayer, or a flag, then whoever is being pressured to do this should get equal time to air their beliefs or lack of them, and that right should be respected. We are blinded to the fact that we disrespect the rights of others by not thinking about the flip side of our own beliefs.
oh, and the kids will be text messaging anyway, but the principle of choice should be upheld.Yes, if you want a moment of silence, take one, no one is stopping you, whenever you want.
LeeAnnG, thanks! It’s always nice to know that one’s misery has company, even if one wouldn’t wish their misery upon another.
I was born without an inch of back-up in me, so I was always able to withstand peer pressure of the sort that your friends’ daughter experienced. I got a lot of practice at it, paid the price to retain my dignity, and just accepted that there are certain circles where religion ought not to be a factor but into which I nevertheless will never be welcome.
My own daughter, the youngest, wasn’t quite as strong and finally cracked under the peer pressure. She’d always been an honor student, participated in school sports, 4-H, FFA, Girl Scouts, and so on. She was always a happy, bubbly, irrepressible child, but during her freshman year in high school she just couldn’t stand being a social outcast any longer. We lived at that time in a very small, isolated town here in the west, one in which the Baptist church was the de facto shadow government, so her quiet non-participation in the rituals left her rejected by her peers. She buckled, and in order to gain acceptance she began attending church, church youth groups, and so on.
Within a few months, she went from social outcast to homecoming princess, and missed being her class president by one vote. She had no idea that she was even on the ballot for homecoming princess until she actually saw the ballot. But, since she had conformed, she was rewarded and given the opportunities that she had in every other way already earned many times over.
She went with it for a while, enjoying her new-found popularity, until she realized what had just happened. When she realized that being herself was not enough, that she also had to at least pretend to share the mythological belief system of her peers in order to be accepted, she rebelled. She quit going to church, and was once again outcast. It made her angrily resentful, and she dropped out of sports, 4-H, FFA, and all other extracurricular activities. Shortly afterward, she lost interest in her schoolwork and began failing her classes. Within a year, she dropped out of school completely. The dinky little town that was our home and had always been as far as she was concerned the finest place on Earth became a hated place, and the small town folks she’d always loved became hated as the instruments of her oppression. (Teenaged girls tend to overreact.)
It’s certainly possible that I in some way failed as a father, or that she has some organic or psychological malfunction at the root of the problem. I readily acknowledge that coincidence does not prove cause in some ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’ illogic, but I saw what I saw and the many details all fit together perfectly. What happened to her was almost certainly due to the fact that she chose to become a silent non-participant in the religious rituals of our society, and she was punished for it.
I wish your friends’ daughter well, and hope that she can find a safe path through the minefield that is religion in our society.
Ascott,
Actually the atheists trying to shut down a government funded silent moment of reflection is exactly the same as evangelical Christians trying to make the government fund prayer. The fanatical atheists want to stop any opportunity for prayer, so their philosophy is the only one practiced, just as extremist Christians want to mandate prayer so theirs is.
And both are dead wrong. A silent moment of reflection is a perfectly reasonable compromise. No one is being led in prayer, nor forced to pray if the don’t want to, nor is it called a moment of prayer. You’re just so fanatical that any hint of a person having the opportunity to pray frightens you and since you think you can manipulate the government to enforce your beliefs, you’re trying. That is not what separation of Church and State is about — it is meant to ensure personal liberty for everyone, though you would abridge that, if you could.
Opinionated
How can you be so blind? One is the refusal to let government intervene in what ought to be one’s personal beliefs, and the other is the wanton insistence that government intrude in just such a fashion.
Separation of church and state. Separation of the ’sacred’ and the ‘profane.’ There was a time when the religiously-minded and the secularly-inclined understood that both were protected by the those separations.
Once upon a time, the Baptists saw that such separation was a very good thing for them and their church. Read President Thomas Jefferson’s letter to the **grateful** Danbury Baptists. Of course, that’s when/where they were a tiny minority and wanted protection for members of religious minority. Now a large, very wealthy, and too influential church, the Baptists (among others) are now screaming that not allowing them to inflict religion on the rest of us somehow violates their rights. (What hypocrisy.)
Do you not know the old philosophical constant, “your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins”? No one is suggesting that the rights of religious students to pray should be curtailed - just that their prayers not be inflicted on others. The atheists do not want to insist that others go prayerless, but the (phony) religious want the government to support the imposition of their prayer into others’ space.
If you can’t see the difference between “Let’s all keep our beliefs out of each others’ faces” and “Freedom of religion means that I have the right to insert my beliefs anywhere I want, no matter whose beliefs they oppose or offend” - well, that’s a very good example of deep and intrisic bias.
Try thinking of it this way: Suppose Muslims were the religious majority in the US. How would those same evangelicals react to the government supporting the encroachment of Islam into everyone else’s space? When trying to determine the validity of such actions, it always helps to put yourself in the place of the minority.
Once again, asking that others keep their praying to themselves is not the same as imposing your beliefs/traditions on others.
True Christian tradition says pray in private. The Constitution says keep religion out of public life. They agree with each other. Real Christians still believe that. What’s wrong with evangelicals? (Seems to me that people who are intent on spreading their religion ought to be the first to insist that it be practiced correctly.)
Anyone who fails to see that simply does not want to see it.
I am actually surprised that any god would require so many salespeople, ascott. That is how it feels to me in my evangelical hotbed hospital.
Your point about people being intent on practising correctly is similar to the peole who wrap themselves in flags and defend flags and fly flags and don’t realize they are contravening their own rules of respectful flag display with their tattered flag hanging soddenly in the rain in the dark. I don’t display the flag, yet I know about the rules!
Heathen
Hello! You ought to have seen the nuns’ faces when I announced that I was not going to recite their prayers or go to their masses! (I was in sixth grade.) The pressure on kids to conform is incredible. But resist it I did, as I am naturally stubborn; and an object of ridicule I became, but I saw it as a badge of honor: I was an independent thinker and willing to defend my right to think and believe as I saw fit.
On the other hand, it dismays me to know that so many in the armed forces were so willing to conform. It’s much worse now, as you’re probably aware, with attendance at clearly religious gatherings now mandatory in the academies - and, no, it does not matter that that is against military regulations. It’s shameful that those who enter the armed forces, believing that they are going to defend our liberties, should do so only to discover that their own liberties are being curtailed.
Bobbity, you are so right.
After the Trade Center attacks, when it seemed that everyone had suddenly decided that one just had to fly a flag to be patriotic, I was appalled to find that most of them had no knowledge of - or respect for? - proper flag etiquette. I also saw flags out in the rain, in the dark, even put up backwards in windows. They also seem to think it’s a good thing to have tablecloths, paper plates, kites, t-shirts - just about anything - imprinted with the flag. If these people are so intent on public displays of ‘patriotism,’ they ought to get the rules straight.
One of my neighbors thought it was okay to throw an old flag into the trash. When I told him that one of the approved methods of disposition of a worn or damaged flag was by burning it, he bacame irate and accused me of being an ‘anti-American pinko trouble-maker’! (Why are the people who scream the loudest generally the ones with the least knowledge?)
I don’t display the flag, either. I don’t believe that flying a flag will make me more patriotic - and I don’t feel the need to prove anything.
It saddens me to see how many Americans are so obsessive about superficialities. We are indeed a consumer society - and far too many of us are not savvy consumers, but are willing to believe the loudest advertiser. (Do you think television conditions viewers that way, what with commercials blaring far above the volume of programs?) That is a question that recently occurred to me; I think I’ll take it to someone who studies communications. Or perhaps someone who knows a lot more about mind control than I do.
My own view is that one ought to be able to get one’s point across in a civil manner. If someone needs to shout, I always suspect that he doesn’t have any more faith in the validity of his position than he has respect for those at whom he is shouting.
For the article and comments to date:
80 uses of “believe” - believer” - “non-believer” - “belief” - “beliefs”
10 ABSOLUTELY IGNORANT misuses of the words myth - mythology
ZERO uses of the words “seek” - “seeking” - “seeker”
“Progressives?” Lot’s of room for progress here.
CDeams2 says “10 ABSOLUTELY IGNORANT misuses of the words myth - mythology”. Hmmmm… first I look at the Oxford English Dictionary and find mythology defined as:
“A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces or creatures , which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or justification for something such as the early history of a society, a religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon.”
Okay, so far so good. Most comments here use the term with that meaning.
Then I look in The Devil’s Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce, and find:
“MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people’s beliefs concerning its origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from the true accounts which it invents later.”
Yep, correct on both counts. So what’s your problem, Deams?
CD, would youlike to help with the terminology if it isn’t working for you? What words would be acceptable to make the meaning clear without being offensive? It is a touchy topic with strong beliefs on both sides. It isn’t measurable. It isn’t concrete it is faith and faith is a belief. To many it is a myth. I’m believing you just want everyone to progress to your system of ‘belief’ perhaps?
personally i am totally secure in my beliefs. i have no need for conformation from others. maybe those that feel the need to prosylatize, and push their religion on others, need the conformation of as many that they can convince, to help quell that tiny little doubt that keeps nagging in the back of their mind.
Ascott,
How can you be so paranoid? To hear you talk, you’d think the state was conducting baptisms in the swimming pool. Don’t be absurd. They are holding a moment of silent reflection at the beginning of the school day.
No mention of prayer. No mention of God. Silent. Reflection. You cannot tell me atheists do not reflect and, though I’ve never seen it, they must be capable of silence without violating their personal philosophy.
It’s your own prejudice and desire to force other to adhere to your own beliefs that is making you blow the situation out of proportion.
I’d agree with terryb. If you are so insecure in your life philosophy that a group of people being silent makes you freak out, you must be very insecure indeed.
Why do we need to be ‘told’ to reflect, can people simply reflect when they see fit, Opinionated? Who is stopping anyone from ‘reflecting’? Its the requirement at issue. Must we have group reflection time, can’t we just have private reflection time?
I also don’t think terryb was in discord with what ascott said, Opinionated, I think they were in agreement.