The Torture Tape Fingering Bush As a War Criminal
Almost all of the time, the Washington I know and live in is utterly unrelated to the Washington you see in the movies. The government is far more incompetent and amateur than the masterminds of Hollywood darkness.
There are no rogue CIA agents engaging in illegal black ops and destroying evidence to protect their political bosses. The kinds of scenario cooked up in Matt Damon’s riveting Bourne series are fantasy compared with the mundane, bureaucratic torpor of the Brussels on the Potomac.
And then you read about the case of Abu Zubaydah. He is a seriously bad guy - someone we should all be glad is in custody. A man deeply involved in Al-Qaeda, he was captured in a raid in Pakistan in March 2002 and whisked off to a secret interrogation, allegedly in Thailand.
President George Bush claimed Zubaydah was critical in identifying Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the mastermind behind 9/11. The president also conceded that at some point the CIA, believing Zubaydah was withholding information, “used an alternative set of procedures”, which were “safe and lawful and necessary”.
Zubaydah was waterboarded. That much we know - it was confirmed recently by a former CIA agent, John Kiriakou, who even used the plain English word “torture” to describe what was done. But we know little else for sure. We do know there was deep division within the American government about Zubaydah’s interrogation, and considerable debate about his reliability.
Ron Suskind’s masterful 2006 book The One Percent Doctrinerecorded FBI sources as saying that Zubaydah was in fact mentally unstable and tangential to Al-Qaeda’s plots, and that he gave reams of unfounded information under torture - information that led law-enforcement bodies in the US to raise terror alert levels, rushing marshals and police to shopping malls, bridges and other alleged targets as Zubaydah tried to get the torture to stop. No one disputes that Zubaydah wrote a diary - and that it was written in the words of three personalities, none of them his own.
A former FBI agent who was involved in the interrogation, Daniel Coleman, said last week that the CIA knew Al-Qaeda’s leaders all believed Zubaydah “was crazy, and they knew he was always on the damn phone. You think they’re going to tell him anything?” Even though preliminary, legal interrogation gave the US good - though not unique - information, the CIA still asked for and received permission to torture him in pursuit of more data and leads.
The Washington Post reported that “current and former officials” said the torture lasted weeks and even, according to some, months, and that the techniques included hypothermia, long periods of standing, sleep deprivation and multiple sessions of waterboarding. All these “alternative procedures”, as Bush described them, are illegal under US law and the Geneva conventions. They are, in fact, war crimes. And they were once all treated by the US as war crimes when they were perpetrated by the Nazis. Waterboarding has been found to be a form of torture in various American legal cases.
And that is where the story becomes interesting. The Bush administration denies any illegality at all, insists it does not “torture” but refuses to say whether it believes waterboarding is torture or not. But hundreds of hours of videotape were recorded of Zubaydah’s incarceration and torture. That evidence would settle the dispute over the extremely serious question of whether the president of the United States authorized war crimes.
And now we have found out that all the tapes have been destroyed.
See what I mean by Hollywood? We know about the destruction because someone in the government told The New York Times. We also know the 9/11 Commission had asked the administration to furnish every piece of relevant evidence with respect to Zubaydah’s interrogation and was not told about the tapes. We know also that four senior aides to Bush and Dick Cheney, the vice-president, discussed the destruction of the tapes - including David Addington, Cheney’s right-hand man and the chief legal architect of the administration’s detention and interrogation policies.
At a press conference last Thursday the president gave an equivocal response to what he knew about the tapes and when he knew it: “The first recollection is when CIA director Mike Hayden briefed me.” That briefing was earlier this month. The president is saying he cannot recall something - not that it didn’t happen. That’s the formulation all lawyers tell their clients to use when they need to avoid an exposable lie.
This is not, of course, the first big scandal to have emerged over the administration’s interrogation policies. You can fill a book with the sometimes sickening details that have come out of Guantanamo Bay, Bagram in Afghanistan, Camp Cropper in Iraq and, of course, Abu Ghraib.
The administration has admitted that several prisoners have been killed in interrogation, and dozens more have died in the secret network of interrogation sites the US has set up across the world. The policy of rendition has sent countless suspects into torture cells in Uzbekistan, Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere to feed the West’s intelligence on jihadist terrorism.
But this case is more ominous for the administration because it presents a core example of what seems to be a cover-up, obstruction of justice and a direct connection between torture and the president, the vice-president and their closest aides.
Because several courts had pending cases in which testimony from Zubaydah’s interrogation was salient, the destruction of such evidence triggers a legal process that is hard for the executive branch to stymie or stall - and its first attempt was flatly rebuffed by a judge last week.
Its key argument is a weakly technical one: that the interrogation took place outside US territory - and therefore the courts do not have jurisdiction over it. It’s the same rationale for imprisoning hundreds of suspects at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba - a legal no man’s land. But Congress can get involved - especially if it believes that what we have here is a cover-up.
What are the odds that a legal effective interrogation of a key Al-Qaeda operative would have led many highly respected professionals in the US intelligence community to risk their careers by leaking top-secret details to the press?
What are the odds that the CIA would have sought to destroy tapes that could prove it had legally prevented serious and dangerous attacks against innocent civilians? What are the odds that a president who had never authorized waterboarding would be unable to say whether such waterboarding was torture?
What are the odds that, under congressional grilling, the new attorney-general would also refuse to say whether he believed waterboarding was illegal, if there was any doubt that the president had authorised it? The odds are beyond minimal.
Any reasonable person examining all the evidence we have - without any bias - would conclude that the overwhelming likelihood is that the president of the United States authorised illegal torture of a prisoner and that the evidence of the crime was subsequently illegally destroyed.
Congresswoman Jane Harman, the respected top Democrat on the House intelligence committee in 2003-06, put it as simply as she could: “I am worried. It smells like the cover-up of the cover-up.”
It’s a potential Watergate. But this time the crime is not a two-bit domestic burglary. It’s a war crime that reaches into the very heart of the Oval Office.
Yes, it is Hollywood time. And the ending of this movie is as yet unwritten.
© 2007 Times Online
The respected top Democrat, Jane Harmon? Excuse me, but didn’t this woman sponsor HR1955? I find very little to respect and much to abhor. This woman is a criminal in her own right.
Fingering Bush as a war criminal?! As if commiting the “the supreme international crime” of initiating a war of aggression didn’t already make him a war criminal in the same category as those condemned to death at Nuremberg.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at these incessant ‘potential Watergate’ revelations. If USans don’t already see their entire criminal ‘leadership’ for what it is, they never will.
when will one of the well known writers start talking about the charges at the Nuremburg trial?
Of course Bush Cheney et al. are criminals. That they are war criminals as well is hardly surprising. We’ve known that since they lied us into an illegal invasion of Iraq. The Democrats chose then, as they are choosing now, to do nothing — at least nothing effective. One can only conclude that they are as complicit as the Bush Republicans.
Not ALL of them are complicit, of course. Paul Wellstone — now dead, conveniently — was not one of the imperialists. Nor is Dennis Kucinich, or Ron Paul, for that matter. Ms. Pelosi, unfortunately, seems to be firmly in favor of Bush’s imperial project. That is what her actions tell me, including her apparent approval of torture for “terror suspects”.
So we are presented with the question: Are we to be imperial subjects, with an unaccountable emperor, or citizens of a republic, with a legally-bound executive? I choose the latter, but I’m afraid that enough of My Fellow Americans would rather have the former. They have been deceived by years of corporate propaganda into believing that an empire is our birthright.
Attempting to elect one man (or woman) to the highest office is not going to change these realities. The world will only be saved by people with changed minds. We on the Left have to begin at the grass roots and build our revolution from below, as the radical Right has been doing since the 1970’s.
“The Bush administration denies any illegality at all, insists it does not “torture” but refuses to say whether it believes waterboarding is torture or not. But hundreds of hours of videotape were recorded of Zubaydah’s incarceration and torture. That evidence would settle the dispute over the extremely serious question of whether the president of the United States authorised war crimes.
“And now we have found out that all the tapes have been destroyed.”
Next question: With the walls closing in, how will they react?
I wonder if it is possible to change the name of Washington D.C. to Calamityville. It might fall under the Truth in Labeling law.
This bush is the same man who, as governor, never passed up an opportunity to execute a prisoner on death, now matter who or what the circumstances. I imagine he recollects those cases, as he doesn’t feel legally threatened by them. This is the same man, who as a little shrub, considered it entertaining to blow up small defenseless animals in the most cruel ways. That revelation was treated by his nation as well as his family, as a peccadillos of the young. This, too, is the young man who joined one of the creepiest societies for up and coming plutocrats, and brought to it his own special brand of viciousness.
One danger in what our so much touted democracies have become in the age of modern communications and bought opinions, is that psychopaths will continue to have the advantage in leadership races. Certainly this will be so if we continue to ignore the danger signals of up and coming leaders, as well as the crimes of the present ones. It is time we started treating all such clues with the seriousness they deserve.
Impeach first, then send to the Hague. Reinstitution of legal government is both important and urgent.
Of course, this is a UK article. Was it published in print, with a big headline and the item above the fold? Or was it buried on the op-ed page?
There’s a whole moving van of dirty laundry within the executive branch that MUST be cleaned by congress. But then there’s another moving van with dirty laundry at congress too.
“Congresswoman Jane Harman, the respected top Democrat on the House intelligence committee in 2003-06, put it as simply as she could: “I am worried. It smells like the cover-up of the cover-up.”
- Harman is a war criminal as well (not just a “criminal,” as resistor rightly points out in the 1st post in this thread). She knew about the existence of the torture tapes as early as 2003 — before the goings-on at Abu Ghraib became common knowledge. Yet she said nothing publicly, thus making her complicit in concealing state torture. She also knew the CIA was considering destroying the tapes, & claims she counseled against this. But here too, she said nothing publicly about her knowledge that the CIA was seriously considering destroying evidence.
This makes Harman herself guilty of several layers of crimes.
I’m not a being that advocates capital punishment, but there must be incidents that may be considered “exceptions to my rule”. Appropriate punishment for bush and his cohorts definitely meet this exception. Put this Illuminati/Skull and Bones/moronic pervert on the guillotine, along with his entire criminal abettors, including Blair. Allow the millions of true, compassionate humans whose lives his dastardly/inhuman/genocidal policies have affected to somehow be party to releasing the blade that severs their evil heads from the rest of their bodies. And when that’s finished, REALLY HURT THEM! Is my bitterness showing? You are damn right it is!!
“Next question: With the walls closing in, how will they react?”
They will act like a caged animal. Attack, attack and attack.
IF they leave office, they know they can be charged with war crimes. I do not believe they are planning to leave. I believe they will create a reason to suspend the elections in ‘08 and remain in office.
It’s their only recourse at this point.
This, in a Murdoch paper…
Reading CD daily, I often wonder why those who post their comments are as hateful as those they complain about. Yes, the situation with our government is possibly the worst it has ever been,
but it would be refreshing to read about solutions that offer positive change.
The problem is that the people who can investigate this case are the spineless Democrats who will say things like “we can’t go after the Republican president because it they ever take back Congress they’ll go after our guy for lying about a sex scandal.”
Janco54, I think you’re right. And, time is running out.
It seems to me with all Bush & Chaney have to cover up they cannot risk turning over power to a Democrat no matter which one. They will likely stage another 911 event declare martial law and and try to stay in power. 1000 lawyers are now asking for investigation but all levels of government are involved in the cover up. Our system only works to deal with one or a few criminals at a time. We have no recourse when all levels/departments of government are involved in criminal activity.
Maybe the Americans, Afghans and Iraqi people who have lived in a state of incredible fear since 9/11, had their children, men, women and infants sacrificed and tortured for an illegal, immoral and unjustified war…maybe their idea of justice would be to put these sadistic, consciousless leaders in a minimum security prison with plasma TV and cappuccino, biscotti, I-Macs and cell phones. Maybe, but somehow, I doubt it.
As is made clear above, the Dems are just as much in this as Bushco. They can safely hand over power to the Clintonobamaedwardsdoddbiden without fear of ever being held accountable. Kissinger, Reagan and Bush-the-first were also war criminals. They were never held accountable during the eight years of Clinton. Bush and Cheney have nothing to worry about unless Kucinich stages an upset.
Wilybill wrote:
“I’m not a being that advocates capital punishment, but there must be incidents that may be considered “exceptions to my rule”. Appropriate punishment for bush and his cohorts definitely meet this exception.”
I disagree, because we have to show moral superiority, to avoid charges of “victors’ justice” (we won, so you losers forfeit all rights). I have sympathy for the US troops who, on entering Dachau concentration camp in 1945, took all the guards they captured (many of whom tried to disguise themselves by putting on prisoners’ uniforms, but were given away by the fact that they were not living skeletons) out and shot them. But that was in hot blood. To say that, if/when we get Bush where we want him, we are entitled to make an exception of him, is a decision made in cold blood. It should not be used as an excuse to dilute our principles.
I don’t remember the last time justice has been served in this country anymore.
Let the true victims, the beings whose blood and friends and relatives and infants blood has been shed..let them make the decision…suits me fine.
So are you all going to keep whining and preaching to the choir or get out of the blogoshere and start organizing and supporting Kucinich? He can’t win unless we all get out and tell everybody about him, run as delegates to the DNC in Denver, CO in August of 2008 and vote him in November. He is the only candidate who has voted against the war, the funding of the war, against the Patriot Act, against the Military Commissions Act,and is for a single payer, universal health care for all, Medicare for all. No one out there has consistently walked the talk. It is time to stand with him. Don’t just blog, organize!
Of course they are war criminals. Their deceit has contributed directly to the deaths of as many as a million Iraqis, mostly women and children, along with 25,000 Americans dead or seriously wounded. Let us not forget, however, that these war criminals are the product of a corrupt government that has been committing war crimes as foreign policy for the past 100 years. America is not guided by the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or the rule of law; like all empires it is guided by the insatiable lust for wealth and power and the willingness to do or say anything to schieve them. America has had it’s day in the sun and will be replaced in due course by another empire whose strategies and tactics will be all too familiar.
Bush and Cheney could kill puppies and kittens with a club (they’d probably love to) and rape someone’s grandmother on videotape — and no one would charge them with any crime.
Americans will just go along commenting on how “cute and folksy” war criminal Bush is by not being able to pronounce words, by being ignorant (how did he EVER graduate from college?), inarticulate, and ignoring his lies, etc.
Bush and Cheney are given a pass on everything they do in fascist, dumbed-down America. The citizens of this country keep track of Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohen, Paris Hilton, sports events, American Idol, etc. more than they do their own government.
I too am waiting for the Nuremberg invocations.
America won the Cold War by claiming the moral high ground. Now that, thin as it may have been, is gone. We have, in too many ways to count, become the bad guys. Justifying techniques we condemned when perpetrated by the Germans and the Japanese, disappearing people, routine massacres of innocents, bombing civilians.
Where does it end?
Scarier still, where can it lead?
God forbid there is another terrorist attack, but we waged this war and if it comes home to roost — think Berlin, 1945 — can anyone really say we, as a people, as a nation, didn’t have it coming?
Wexlerwantshearnings.com
Go there and sign on, you can make a diffference!
Trainer12, thank you, I needed that. You’re 100% correct. I’m tired of blogging. It’s time to get out and help Kucinich win. He deserves to win, and we deserve a decent president for once. In addition, his wife would make a wonderful first lady.
So, Neil Uecke, what solutions to American torture would not be hateful, would offer positive change?
Education on the subject could be a start. Americans need to become aware of our existing anti-torture roots, values and laws along with their humanistic base. We need to understand these things well enough to become passionate about defending and advancing them–no?
It’s hard to believe Andrew Sullivan wrote this but I reckon things do change. I, along with 58 million plus citizens have been waiting for nigh on eight years now for some sanity and some justice. Time is running out on the Bush/Cheney regime. Tick … tock … tick… tock…
Yes, he is a war criminal. No, he will never be tried. Leaders of dominant countries aren’t - it would reflect on the dominant country. The US (or its political establishment) will pretend Bush was a great leader till the day he dies. It’s a matter of national honour. And just look at St Tony - no less guilty than Bush but flying off to the catholic church to a chorus of hosannas. The Church welcomes him with “joy and respect”. Only the criminal leaders of conquered countries are made to pay, and usually as a demonstration of dominance on the part of the equally criminal victors.
If the writer is the big, bald, gay Republican commentator who now repents for helping put Bush in power, congratulations on seeing the light. I hope you will also include the rest of the Republican administration and the corporate conservatives in Congress who share the responsibility for a disaster of global proportion.
Fox news deserves kudos for running two stories about a North Carolina pig slaughterhouse where the workers spray painted “kill” on pigs, gouged the eyes out of pigs for fun–men and women laughing as they castrated pigs and cut the tails off piglets, and the supervisor bragging about the pigs he beats.
And pigs cant be accused of any crime–or suspected of any.
As Tolstoy said, we will always have war as long as we have slaughterhouses.
you’re peeing in the wind, pal: no guts in congress, no prosecutions for the boyking.
That’s the best picture of bush I’ve ever seen!
9/11 was an inside job in order to justify an invasion of Iraq and Afgahnistan but what wiil they organise to stay in power if the polls start showing a support for Kucinich.
I was listening to Greg Craig Obama’s foreign policy spokesman on c-span this morning and he made it clear that Obama regarded Iran as a threat and an enemy. How are we to get any peace in the world with people like that likely to replace Bush. They’re just corporate hacks from what i can see the likelyhood of a drastic change in policy both foreign and domestic is not good.
The young kids in America are being fed violence as a normal practice as the PIG story above shoes all too clearly. Just look at the games they play, nothing but violence and destruction.
Jane Harmon? Respected Democrat? What planet are you from?
So, what’s new. Imprison this war criminal junta. And don’t forget Nancy Pelosi AND ALL OTHER “DEMOCRAT” COMPLICIT.
Then recall the entire US Government.
First off HANG JANE! When the trials start, she should be included as an enabler or branded in the same category as that perino idiot, STUPID. Now as far as the tapes go, I do not remember any tapes being introduced as evidence in the Nuremburg Trials.
I believe that there is plenty of evidence to convict
the main 4……+JANE. Dont forget, they can still call the people that were waterboarded as “Hostile Witness’s”.
I’m about to stop reading anything about the law breaking prick in the White House.
I’ve been reading the same indicting arguments
about this prick for almost 7 years and nothing ever happens to the guy….and I predict nothing will.
He’s like Fearless Fosdick from the Lil Abner cartoons. He seems to be bullet proof.
He’s riddled with countless violations that would have sunk anyones ship and like Frankenstein he continues to resurface to violate again and again.
Merry Xmas
Impeach the fucking liar!
“Next question: With the walls closing in, how will they react?”
what walls closing in? how can the walls close in with schumer and feinstein letting mukasey get approved?
not to mention the lack of interest by pelosi and the rest of the useless democrats.
I don’t know what a bunch of tapes have to do with labelling Baby Caligula a war criminal. He already invaded a country that had not attacked this country, killed tens of thousands of its citizens, and stole all their assets. If that’s not enough evidence, I don’t know what is.
Yes, (compared to Watergate) “…this time the crime is not a two-bit domestic burglary. It’s a war crime…”.
But unfortunately this time both political parties are complicit.
That’s my feeling: Anyone who has been party to the crimes committed by Bush, Cheney and the rest, deserve the same fete
as them in the courts of American Justice. Let’s remove all of the rot before they destroy America. I don’t know how they can sleep, let alone profess they believe in the leading socialist of biblical times . . . Jesus Christ.
I, and everybody I know want: Dennis Kucinich, John Edwards, and Chris Dodd. The rest can go hem a hanky!
How can this writer make accusations against the tortured prisonsers when the accusations are based on information extracted by torture?
The only evidence the 9/11 Commission had to reach its conclusions about who planned 9/11 were second hand reports from the torturers of confessions that were the result of torture. They had the confessions on video tape, but destroyed the tapes.
The crimes of 9/11 remain unsolved.
“Bush seeks to restore U.S. image abroad with 2008 travel”
It will be called “The Torture Shmorture Tour.”
oh for gawd’s sake get off jane Harmon’s back … this article is about butthead bush and his war crimes … stick to business … Some of you sound like pubs trying to re-direct responsibility ……. par for the course!!
Ditto on Jane Harmon; she is as bad as the Republicans. And her buddy, Pelosi, has long ago committed herself to making sure the House doesn’t try to impeach Bush and Cheney. Poor America!
The sad, no, the pathetic part of all this is;
That mealy-mouth whining little swine and all his schoolyard bullies have not only gotten extremely rich(er), they’ll get away with it and you lemmings will sure as hell let ‘em.
Some greasy peckerwood will chirp about how “we must move on to save the country” and the U.S. sheeple will, as usual, fall right in line and say “huh?…ummm, yup! We’ve got to move on for the good of the country”. Well guess what? letting dirty low-life filth like them get away with it has pretty much bled out any “good” that MIGHT have been left in this, the REAL Evil Empire.
Imagine the collective sigh of relief the world will emit when this foul nation caves in upon itself, “for the good of the world”.
If they elect to hang bushturd for war crimes. Do you think I could be there with my camera to take pictures.
We all know Bush and his administration are war criminals. Congress has become complicit in the crimes by not enforcing the laws.
So who will enforce the laws? Are they going to arrest themselves. Maybe they can retroactivley exonerate themselves. It’s good to be the King.
=====
THIS is sickening. I’ve been wondering for years what’s happened to those who were tortured, wondered if they’d been killed since nobody has been brought to trial. Now I know. Dead men can’t testify against their torturers.
I think Bush and Cheney should be prosecuted, found guilty, and executed for their crimes against humanity.
Resistor is right. Harmon is part of the problem, as is Pelosi. We need to make quick work of identifying who in Congress is part of the problem and who will represent the American people in creating the solution. It’s in our court, sisters and brothers. We can’t hide any longer behind the notion that we are adequately represented by Congress in this power grab. Whomever is not fighting it directly, is abetting it.
Taxation without representation?
Many of us believe that Messers Bush and Cheney should be brought up on charges for war crimes. Many have stated their belief that Congress is complicit to some degree in those crimes.
Two questions arise. First, who shall bell the cat? Secondly, is the complicity also a responsibility of the citizenry who continue to allow the criminality?
I would like to know what we propose to do about the situation. Talk is cheap, action dear.
A cornered rat can be very dangerous. And the walls are rapidly closing in. We’ll see if the CIA operative Rodriguez testifies to Congress next month, if he does the party will begin.
“There are no rogue CIA agents engaging in illegal black ops and destroying evidence to protect their political bosses. The kinds of scenario cooked up….”
Says who?
There are strong parallels here between WWII Germany and Iraq War US:
Germany was shamed by the loss of World War I and Hitler came along like a savior to erase the national shame by clobbering Europe.
The US was shamed by the loss of Vietnam and George Bush came along like a savior to erase the shame by clobbering Afghanistan and Iraq.
Here the parallels end because Germany was forced to come to its senses when the Allies clobbered it. Now the Germans know how wrong they were and have taken steps to ensure that they never forget what they did when they were tricked by a crooked leader, and never do it again.
But who’s going to clobber the US? No one can, militarily. But it could be done financially. There’s now talk in Germany about putting sanctions on US goods. Other countries may follow suit. The US could be forced to do what Germany was forced to do after World War II if the world got together and went after the dollar and/or the goods manufactured in the US. And what would happen if all the world’s oil-producing countries simply refused to sell any oil to the US?
So, to avert the possibility of the above happening, the US could impeach Bush and Cheney and scrap the Patriot Act and do whatever it can to assure the world that something like this will never happen again, just like Germany did. The problem is that if Bush and/or Cheney are ever brought to trial everything will come out of the woodwork, including all the other people who were complicit (and there are lots of them), and of course none of the complicit ones want that to happen. This is why Bush and Cheney will probably never be impeached: Pelosi and company will be impeaching themselves if they impeach Bush. Kucincih dares to try because he is one of the very few whose hands are clean.
But maybe we can impeach everything Bush has done, instead of impeaching him:
End the Iraq War, get rid of the Patriot Act, ditch Guantanamo, restore habeus corpus and our Constitution and etc. Basically, we could send the country back in time to a point when Bush wasn’t President and start over. Doing this wouldn’t result in a trial, so maybe it wouldn’t scare all the politicians who are complicit in Bush’s actions. And maybe then the world would trust us again, even without our impeaching Bush and Cheney. We could simply erase their works and let them fade off into nothingness, leaving behind them a legacy of being the worst President and Vice President in US history.
And then maybe we could start to fix the deficit and do something about global warming and create a National Health Care program and fix New Orleans and make reparations to Iraq and so on.
The Bush administration’s legal strategy, masterminded by David Addington, John Yoo, Alberto Gonzales, Scooter Libby et al., is to substitute a private, idiosyncratic definition of torture to allow them to claim that they are not violating the law. This is an impermissable defense: “Your honor, I did not rob the bank, it was merely an enhanced rapid unsecured loan approval process.” No judge or jury would accept this, and time will tell if Congress and the Supreme Court do. If they do, it will be the triumph of hypocrisy over honor, atrocity over decency, and raw power over law.
Progressives need to be persistent and patient when it comes to pursuing war crimes trials for this era. In Germany, after Nuremberg, German public opinion didn’t agree with or favor the Nuremberg trials as just until the 1980s. In the 1950s, 60s and 70s, there was a strong strain of opinion (according to now-released US government polls) that suggested that Nuremberg was “victor’s justice” and was unfair. That has shifted now of course, and it is a crime in Germany to deny the Nazi holocaust or to display a swastika. So we need to persist. The Nuremberg precedents are US law via the UN adoption of them in the late 1940s, and via the Constitution’s Article 6 (2) which makes “treaties made” the “supreme law of the land.” (see www.benferencz.org)
Pinochet found out that justice has a long memory. I think it is likely, if we can create a new progressive regime and era in America, that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Powell/Rice/Pelosi/Harmon/Lieberman/Obama/Edwards/Clintons and the rest of the likely war criminals will have their day in court to determine, according to the Nuremberg ideals, their guilt or innocence.
Bush and the Neocons are already war criminals for illegally invading Iraq. Most of the right-wing leadership of the “Democrats” are as well.
“willybill December 24th, 2007 12:31 pm
I’m not a being that advocates capital punishment, but there must be incidents that may be considered “exceptions to my rule”. Appropriate punishment for bush and his cohorts definitely meet this exception. Put this Illuminati/Skull and Bones/moronic pervert on the guillotine, along with his entire criminal abettors, including Blair. Allow the millions of true, compassionate humans whose lives his dastardly/inhuman/genocidal policies have affected to somehow be party to releasing the blade that severs their evil heads from the rest of their bodies. And when that’s finished, REALLY HURT THEM! Is my bitterness showing? You are damn right it is!!”
Amen to that willybill!
“Its key argument is a weakly technical one: that the interrogation took place outside US territory - and therefore the courts do not have jurisdiction over it. It’s the same rationale for imprisoning hundreds of suspects at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba - a legal no man’s land. But Congress can get involved - especially if it believes that what we have here is a cover-up.”
I seem to recall that at least the US military courts have jurisdiction over cases that have happened outside US territory: My Lai, the case where US pilots were “playing around” in Italy and happened to cut the cable of a ski lift and kill everyone aboard… I thought the US didn’t want to sign up to the ICC because it wanted to try its own citizens, no matter where the alleged crimes had taken place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court#American_Servicemembers_Protection_Act
“he United States claims that American soldiers and political leaders are at risk of “frivolous or politically motivated prosecutions” (a form of barratry). American troops and civilians are active in over 100 countries in the world and are therefore in a uniquely vulnerable position.”
The US of A is trying to have its cake and eat it.
If we really care about this country, its constitution and what both stand for…if we really care that we try to live up to the high standards and principles that this country was founded on…we MUST demand and work for the impeachment of President Bush and Vice President Cheney. Contrary to Speaker Pelosi’s famous statement that “impeachment is off the table” because there is too much other business to attend to, impeachment is the most important “business” Congress has right now. From the voluntary unilateral invasion of Iraq under false pretenses (if not outright lies), to the torture of detainees in the “War on Terrorism”, to violating privacy and civil rights of American citizens in the prosecution of that “war”, this administration appears to have blatantly and repeatedly violated both the letter and spirit of our constitution…and international law. If these acts do not rise to the level of “high crimes and misdemeanors”,nothing does. If that is indeed the case, our nation is lost. It will be up to future generations and other societies to learn from our mistakes and the lessons of our downfall to further the ideals and beliefs that we once cherished and that are enshrined in our constitution. All is not lost, however. The process of beginning to “right the ship of state” and rebuild the trust of the American people and the world begins with admitting what we have done and holding accountable those most responsible for the outrages since 9/11. This means NOT letting them serve out there terms in office, but impeaching them and, if warranted, punishing them to the fullest extent of the law. Walking the walk of democracy and patriotism is so much uglier and tougher then talking the talk.
Resistance is the only answer-we can no longer talk:
“Let me give you a word of the philosophy of reform. The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her August claims, have been born of earnest struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being, putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing. If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.”
“This struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.”
—Frederick Douglass
Source: Douglass, Frederick. [1857] (1985). “The Significance of
Emancipation in the West Indies.” Speech, Canandaigua, New York, August 3,
1857; collected in pamphlet by author.
http://www.buildingequality.us/Quotes/Frederick_Douglass.htm
I’m always puzzled when I see threaders come from the point of view that the good ol’ USA has EVER been able to claim a sense of morality. I’d like to see where some of our ‘founding fathers’ ever thought twice about perpetuating what is now a 515 year long war by Europe against this continent. Where IS Leonard Peltier? Where is Brother Reverend Farrakhan who asks ‘How can African Americans enter into a Contract w/ America when the people you want to enter the contract with can’t be trusted?’ Yeah I support Kucinich but how do you deal w/ 500+ pieces of deficant who were elected to represent us ‘in congress’?
It’s so much fun to actually read stuff like this. At least there’s still a vestige of liberty in the country, no? I wonder what would happen if people, other than us CD lefty types, starting making audible noise about it all.
After all, why think this is going to ripple the pond? Nothing else has. We’re neck deep in elephant turds and well, enough people have gotten so use to it that it’s all effectively ignored.
No one’s going to prosecute these people. A DLC Democrat will get elected and…
…little will change. In fact, even if there is any judicial action he/she will probably pardon the lot in order to ‘get it all behind us so we can move on.’
But hell, don’t stop making noise! In fact, all you Democrats vote for Kucinich in the primary and then change your affiliation to Indie or Green. The only way we’ll get noticed is to stop giving them our votes.
Donald Duck would do better than Bush, but no one other than Kucinich or Gravel is worth your vote.
Yes, this country was founded on the basis of genocide and ethnic cleansing. So it is a valid question to ask where do Americans derive their claim of higher morality…. where is the basis for expecting “God to Bless America”….
To all who post at Common Dreams,
Bush behind bars would make the Christmas present of the century. It would be a wonderful thing to see this man and his minions where they should be: behind bars.
On a personal note, I would like to wish all of you a safe and very happy holiday season. Tonight, while I attended Christmas mass, I said a prayer for all of you, wishing you good health, happiness, and a prosperous 2008. I appreciate all of the posts. You truly are wonderful people, and I thank you for the intellectual discussions. Take care, and I look forward to many more.
With best regards,
Claudius
Citizen1’s question is the question of the day, in my view. America’s claim to “higher morality” is based more in fiction than in reality, but practicing a higher morality for real is a good idea —
As for Bushboy and The Dick, they should get a fair trial, and then sentenced by Texas and/or Wyoming legal standards for those who commit the crimes they’re convicted of. It is cathartic to ponder the remote possibility that justice will be done. It is tragic to think such visceral demagoguery gained control of our government. The price is yet to be paid — by all of us.
Let’s start a Progressive Party with Chomsky, Zinn, Hartmann, and others as the central figures to rally around.
I hate to be a party pooper, but doesn’t anybody remember Ohio in 2004 and Florida in 2000? I predict the dumbest of the Republican candidates will be elected — well, he will appear to be elected. Bushco need not bother with canceling the election, which might actually piss people off. All they have to do is buy the candidate who can be convinced that God wants him to carry on the quiet takeover of the U.S. Gee, could this be happening right before our eyes already?
The CIA helped establish al-Qa’ida in Afghanistan (working closely with Pakistan’s ISI), offering them assistance against the Soviet invaders. Why would anyone honestly believe the CIA is not still responsible for al-Qa’ida (its movements, operations, attacks, etc.)?
The government supposedly recovered passports, drivers licenses, and other identifying items of the “hijackers” on 9/11, but this was only possible because these items were always in the posession of the US government. There were very small bone fragments (belonging to the people who were unfortunate enough to be in the Twin Towers) being found on the tops of adjacent buildings (this year)–everything in the buildings was pulverized into fine, floating dust. Yet we’re to believe a “hijackers” passport survived a fiery plane crash into a Tower and fell to the ground as the buildings were exploding, still intact and legible? People. Think about it.
Yeah, we can impeach him for the illegal wars, but let’s look at the main crime the Bush regime committed to justify their illegal wars. The Bush regime fought hard against investigating 9/11, and when they did cooperate, they put the chips in place to guarantee that the truth would remain covered-up (or that’s what they thought they did!). Bush and Cheney testified together (in private, not under oath) to the 9/11 Commission, and none of their testimony was recorded. What kind of shit was that!?
Bush should be tried for war crimes, mass murder and treason (of Americans on 9/11 and the millions of Afghans and Iraqis who’ve either been killed or displaced because of his callous actions), yet we see John Conyers still bullshitting when it comes to impeachment (which is nothing compared to what Bush and Cheney should be under fire for). I love Conyers for his life’s work (especially dealing with reparations for all these years), but his legacy is becoming more tarnished the longer he waffles around and acts scared and timid.
Thank you Claudius for your post at 11:53 on Christmas Eve.
Although I didn’t attend mass I too prayed for everyone who posts here at Commondreams. I feel a bond with everyone here that is close to the deepest core of myself as a human being.
Merry Christmas to all and I pray that we find the way to dream in common in 2008…and act as well.
What was a WAR CRIME in 1945 is now AMERIKKKAN FOREIGN POLICY..
AmeriKKKa the real threat to global peace
Enough already! Every day, every week, for the entire Bush administration’s tenure, there emerges new stories of their war crimes and crimes against humanity. This is what bourgeois democracy has come to, its trajectory to the decaying and rotting corpse that it is today. Every single day that Bush and his cronies have been in power is yet another crime against true justice. And we are so outraged, that sometimes we are moved to contribute our two cents to one message board or another, or maybe attend meetings and stand on street corners holding signs or marching when we have the opportunity. And still the crimes continue, the lies, the cover-ups. How many people do we have to get to meet in DC, and stay there until Bush et al steps down - and if he doesn’t, we march straight into the White House and take it over!!! Who can stop us, if there’s enough of us? That’s what needs to be done, people. The whole world is counting on us, and wondering when Americans will grow the gravitas that many thought they once had (ie. Paine etc).
There will be no justice in Washington until after the hardware stores run out of rope and the generals hold back the troops.
I remember during the Clinton scandals with Monica (what lightweight offenses but while the repubs still use it as their security blanket) Mandella joked with Clinton that his country would not intervene in our country’s affairs.
Can you imagine Mandella meeting with Bush? And if he did he would be declaring that South Africa was intervening in our affairs and taking Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Colin (he should have stopped it before the first term was up) Condi, Wolfowitz, Bolton, and many others into custody for trial at the Hague for war crimes.
I was thinking… they say this is outside the American courts jurisdiction. I can see that blowing up in their face: the international courts must then have jurrisdiction.
Seems I would trust the international courts better then ours. Heck, the common people in this country ate-up the evidence given to them by their savior Bush; it could be hard to sway them to simple logic.
Rant-on — such is meaningless.
What this canard has really-wrought (regardless what you may think of its purported-’Criminality’) is cementing in the minds of most-Americans that: “gee, they only do some little-bit of that torture-stuff we’ve heard of to get really bad-guys to talk — thank G-d Mr. Bush was strong-enough to protect us, at such personal-Peril”.
Don’t be easily-baited like this — Rove obviously hasn’t left ‘in spirit’, anyways…
Instead, demand the ‘real’ torture-tapes (much-worse, and of relative-innocents) you KNOW are all-over Langley and the Offices of DNI.
“Can you imagine Mandella meeting with Bush?”
Bush thinks him dead (and as we all know, Bush doesn’t meet-with or care-about the dead)…
What’s new here?????? We all know he is our ‘top thug’! I can’t recall right off hand anything legal the man has done. It started with stealing the election in 2000 and is going to end who knows where?????
This goes absolutely nowhere. This is a time of war and I personally do not consider waterboarding to be torture. I also believe that the destruction of the tapes was the proper thing to do. Why in the name of all that is good and western would we give the enemies of the west graphic details on waterboarding? You know that if these tapes still existed that the enemies of the west (including those suffering from Bush Derangement syndrome) would put them out to inflame hatred in the middle east (not that they need much proding)and for pure partisan political purpose. I am also bewildered on how much viriol is spent on this issue and the silence becomes defening when it comes to the atrocities Islamo-fascists commit on their own and to captured westerners. I don’t hear even a peep about the sheer brutality which is far worse than whatever Bush and the coalition has done to any prisoner whether imprisoned somewhere over there or at Gitmo. In fact the biggest problem I hear about with the prisoners under US control is that they are getting too fat. Maybe you left wing types can come up with complaints about that as being torture? Ehh? Show me the tapes of portly bearded incarcerated terrorists with regular health and dental care who get to “bray” five times a day from a tropical paradise in the Carribean. That Bush is a heartless beast worse than Bin Laden….NOT!
Hi dikaiosyne…
I feel sorry for you, because you have obviously uncritically swallowed all the lies and other nonsense fed to you over the last seven years. But congratulations on your failed attempt at Left baiting, with a healthy dose of ignorant bigotry thrown in. Just keep on watching Faux News, and for God’s sake, don’t think for yourself, whatever you do.
Merry Christmas.
…And the Right accuses the Left of cowardice and moral relativism.
Cowardice: “Why in the name of all that is good and western would we give the enemies of the west graphic details on waterboarding? You know that if these tapes still existed that the enemies of the west (including those suffering from Bush Derangement syndrome) would put them out to inflame hatred in the middle east (not that they need much proding)and for pure partisan political purpose.”
Moral relativism: “I am also bewildered on how much viriol is spent on this issue and the silence becomes defening when it comes to the atrocities Islamo-fascists commit on their own and to captured westerners. I don’t hear even a peep about the sheer brutality which is far worse than whatever Bush and the coalition has done to any prisoner whether imprisoned somewhere over there or at Gitmo.”
Happy Holidays everyone!
As I said earlier, talk is cheap. Here are some folks who decided to ACT! Out of context it appears futile. If we all contributed it might gain legs.
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?id=2107
THE MORALITY OF WATERBOARDING, THE COMFORT OF TERRORISTS
If we take the position that we must never, under any circumstances, use waterboarding or any other form of stressful, panic inducing, or painful interrogation to extract information from terrorists that could save the lives of civilians, American or Iraqi, or American troops, we make a very curious moral decision:
We decide that the COMFORT OF TERRORISTS is of greater moral value than the safety and lives of Americans and non-terrorist Iraqis, or anyone else. We decide that the interest of the terrorist being interrogated in being comfortable, free from stress, panic, or pain, is more important than the interests of Americans and others in being free from terrorism. We exalt the “value” of terrorism above the value of protecting civilization from terrorism.
We decide that we will risk and sacrifice the safety and lives of Americans and Iraqis in order to protect the comfort of terrorists, thereby implicitly deciding that the lives and comfort of terrorists are of greater moral value than the lives and safety of the Iraqi people, of American troops, or even of ourselves.
We make the decision that we are willing to allow terrorism to commit mass murder and mayhem, inflicting pain and death our countrymen, neighbors, friends, families, ourselves, rather than inflicting discomfort on the terrorists who intend to cause the carnage.
We have made the moral (or immoral) decision that we are willing to commit suicide, in effect, in order to protect the comfort of terrorists, by refusing, under any circumstances, to use forceful interrogation techniques that could, potentially, prevent a major terrorist attack in an American city in which many thousands of American lives could be lost - in order to protect the comfort of terrorists, and our own conceit of moral superiority.
We desire to be so “morally and ethically pure” that we will not use force even to protect ourselves or others from a threat of great bodily harm or death, thus surrendering ourselves as willing sacrifices to that threat. We reject the privilege, the right, and the moral duty, of self defense, and of the defense of others against danger. We say, in effect, “You may bomb my kids’ school and blow up my children, but I will never stoop to waterboarding you.”
Thus we become, at least potentially, willing accomplices in the mass murder of children, our own children, refusing to waterboard terrorists even to save the life of our own child, and, to me, this is just about as repugnantly immoral a stance as it is possible to take.
We are deciding that if the choice is between discomfiting a terrorist, or allowing the mass murder of Americans or Iraqis, we will allow the mass murder, rather than discomfit the terrorist. And so we become, at least potentially, accessories before the fact, moral accomplices, to acts of mass murder, terrorism, atrocities infinitely worse than the stress we refuse to use in interrogation of those dedicated to the perpetration of atrocities.
This, in my view, is a complete inversion of rational and civilized moral values. A rational civilization values the lives of its civilians and its legitimate troops more highly than the lives of terrorists, while only an irrational “civilization,” or, more accurately, an irrational culture, values the comfort of terrorists more highly than the lives of its own citizens, or the non-terrorist citizens of other countries.
The thinking of the Liberal-Progressive sector of America, that waterboarding must not, ever, under any circumstances, be used to elicit information that could save the lives of non-terrorist Americans, Iraqis, or anyone else, is a long step in the direction of an irrationalist and morally inverted culture, which is, inherently, the antithesis of civilization.
A civilization protects its citizens from terrorists.
An irrationalist culture protects terrorists from its citizens, and therefore is, by definition, not civilized, for it has chosen to exalt uncivility (terrorism) over civility, it has chosen to allow the freedom to commit acts of savagery, barbarity, and atrocity, to take precedence over the lives and safety of innocents, and the preservation of its own cultural (and civilizational) integrity.
It has exalted the profoundly immoral above the moral. It has exalted the comfort of terrorists above the safety and lives of its own men, women, and children.
“A civilization protects its citizens from terrorists.”
Or, a civilization does not create the environment conducive to terrorism.
A civilization does not create, in its own excesses, “bad lives” for others.
A civilization that is decent does not humiliate others.
THE MORALITY OF WATERBOARDING, THE COMFORT OF TERRORISTS
“Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.” — Jesus Christ
Matthew 5:44
Of course he is a war criminal. Most usurpers, tyrants, dictators, and ‘deciders’ are, aren’t they?
Ray Kraft - TORTURE IS TERROR.
Torture never produces quality info. Check the history. NEVER.
Torture has only one use - it sends a message to the street. The message is TERROR. Ice cold, knife in the guts TERROR. Just like a van with Blackwater or CIA thugs can snatch you off the street and do anything to you that they want for as long as they want and they will use our bent shrinks to break you. Shatter your mind, your body, and your heart. That is what TORTURE is all about. It isn’t about anything but keeping domestic populations under the Jack Boot. Don’t doubt it for an instant. No man, no woman, no child ever entirely recovers from torture.
That’s why WE made torture a War Crime - along with wars of aggression and bombing civilian targets. Yes, so quaint for a people who got away with Nuking civilian populations? Isn’t it?
If you want to see ambivalence on the subject, rent Judgement at Nuremburg. The German defense used our ‘32 Virginia Eugenics Sterilization Law. The guys in the movie got “Life”. They were all out in 6yrs. And of course, there were all those Waffen SS and Gestapo guys the FBI secretlyy brought back home to “teach us”.
We have serious ambivalence on this as a people. But only because we stole this country with genocide and built it with forced human labor. All denied to this day. We are past Masters of Oppression and the Jack Boot. Our cops have done Terror in the Basement in every major metro for
Peace.
RE: Ray Kraft December 25th, 2007 12:11 pm
There is a double standard working here you fail, even with all your self-righteous tripe about morality & such, to recognize.
Did we ever hold Menachem Begin & his accomplices in crimes against humanity accountable for their acts of terrorism? Did we ever elicit confessions from them through waterboarding?
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
To:
Ray Kraft December 25th, 2007 12:11 pm
Not only is torture terrorism, but think before you express your opinion. How do you (we) know that they are terrorists? Because Bush says so? Think again.
Daisy December 24th, 2007 12:06 pm
“When will one of the well known writers start talking about the charges at the Nuremburg trial?”
I’m not that well known, but have been bringing Nuremberg up many times over the past few years.
http://www.populistamerica.com/steve_osborn
And to my alleged representatives. No answer.
When I was a child, my father would tell my siblings to hold me down and he would tickle me. I couldn’t move, not a limb. My body would thrash, but there was no escaping. I laughed and laughed until I could no longer breathe. No breath. Very frightening. He got such a thrill out of this, and so did my brothers and sister. They all thought it most entertaining, such fun. When one can’t breathe, one dies. No one ever gets over torture, someone said. Not completely. I was innocent, I was tortured. When I first heard about the renditions, oh about three years ago now, I went straight to Senator Collin’s office in Bangor, Maine. I filled out a piece of paper telling her how sickened, how enraged I was that America was kidnapping innocent people and torturing them. I remember how my writing got out of control and I cried as I wrote. I’m sure the staffers put a note on my form - probably “crazy, watch out for this one”. The sickening feeling I had that day is still with me, every day. And I did get a form letter back, so nice of her…..I want to leave Amerika, but do not have the resources. Russell Means of the Lakota tribe has sued the government for their land and are seceeding from this country. I wish Maine would secede.
Look, the Democratic Congress is not going to impeach Bush. As others have already noted on this board, senior Democrats bought into bubble boy’s actions at the time, mainly because they didn’t have the balls to stand up and protect the Constitution, as was their job and duty; they are not now going to willingly shed sunlight onto their complicity in this affair. Nope, the job is left to the common man here. It is important to keep the drumbeat going, to hold bubble boy accountable in the court of public opinion. There is one year left in this administration’s term, and they are going to use every minute of it to spin, polish, and rehab bubble boy’s image and “legacy” for posterity. Don’t let it happen. This isn’t just about a scandal or two (or ten). This is about preserving the institution of the President of the United States. The latest instalment has been a disaster, and history needs to record that. Currently, bubble boy is down there in the opinion polls with Buchanan and Jackson as being the worst of the class, and that is where he should stay. Make it happen. Write letters, raise your voice in the debate, join the chorus that sh*ts on all things that this administration touched, and you will do your part to keep that pr*ck where he belongs. When my grandchildren read their history books I expect them to look back on bubble boy with the same warmth, respect and gratitude that is reserved for Joseph McCarthy. Bubble boy should be a historical footnote someday (remembered mostly for making 9-11 the roaring terrorist success that it was), and his name should be held synonymous with the values that he displays: suspicion, paranoia, xenophobia, prevarication, and hypocrisy.
dikaiosyne, I can’t believe that you support torture. What in our nation’s name and the world’s name gives us the right to break the Geneva Conventions - “The Supreme Law of the United States.” This was a ratified treaty making it Supreme Law of the United States and now you claim it is bogus? Where is your character; where is the character of this country.
In Iraq my battalion commander used to say, “Character is what you do when no one is watching.” Now we find out what agents of our government (by the people for the people) were doing and you are not at all concerned? I am embarrassed to be an American. These are our darkests days.
You do though preface your comments that you do not believe water boarding torture. Unbelievable! This when we used to claim that even Chinese Water Toture where they drop small amounts of water on your head until it drives you crazy was torture but then you say drownding someone is not?
I do not have Bush derangement syndrome - any more so then I have Hess Derangement Syndrome.
Andrew, Andrew, Andrew! A little too little too late, pal in the war crimes chorus. You know, sir, all of that cheer leading you did for the mother of all war crimes - the invasion of Iraq- would put YOU in the dock for war crimes if we use the Nuremburg trials as precedent.
Better late than never just won’t cut it in my book.
Your sycophancy toward Bush in the aftermath of 9/11 made me sick.
Oh and I agree with the earlier comment re Harmon. Respected by you Andrew, not by those of us who want to see the Constitution remain intact.
Get off of your high horse and repent.
Why in the name of all that is good and western?….
Genocide, racism, greed and full bore hatred?
Iraqi children dying so they dont grow up to…?
Rupert Murdoch & Rev. Moon?
ref. ticonderoga
You are onto something effective, since I and other ‘USans’ seem to talk a lot and do nothing really noticeably powerful.
Am I the only blogger who sees that our so-called reps are all bought and paid for by the same group of corporate thugs? If sanctions are indeed coming, is it possible the thugs’ bank accounts will be emptied?
Silly me. We can’t even spell ‘boycott’, let alone try it out. We just gotta drive and buy last minute Christmas gifts! And the best bargains are tomorrow, after all!
Do I sound sarcastic? Yes! So be it in complacency land.
War criminal. Yes, that’s what he is. No question about it. What? Congress won’t do anything about it? Shame on them. Wish they’d set it right. They might get votes and contributions. And a restored Republic.
The argument made above (by R. Kraft) using the “ticking bomb” hypothesis has been addressed and thoroughly debunked in the real world. Torture is a crime, and no one, including our alleged president, is authorized to commit crimes. Beyond that, Bush’s actions indicate that he has no inclination whatsoever to reduce the threat of terrorism.
By invading Iraq, he has created a breeding ground for more anti-American hatred, and he was warned about this in advance, but was apparently as unconcerned then as he is now. Osama Bin Ladin is still on the loose, and will continue to be, as long as he is useful as a boogieman to scare the rest of into submission. Invading Iraq did nothing to reduce the influence of Al Qaida.
Engaging is torture — apparently with great enthusiasm — has given the oppressed people of the world even more cause to hate us. Again, not a concern. So why are they doing it? To show the world we can do anything we want?
Does anyone not believe that it is digital and there are not copies of the file. Let’s hope someone with a conscience comes forward. It should be shown to the world at Bush Co’s war crime trials.
I actually believe that when Bush leaves office a slurry of these evil people, perhaps not the president himself, will be indicted by the world court for war crimes. There are no pardons for that court.
A cold concrete cell, a cheap blanket, and a shoelace should fit them fine for the rest of their lives. Then invite those they tortured and the Iraqi families who lost most of their families to their criminal adventure into Iraq. Just to gaze upon the piggish animals: George, Condi, Rummy, Dick, Wolfy, Bolton, Colin, Libby, like the animals they are.
I am amazed at all the kool-aid drinking left wing loonies here. I just returned from Gitmo and those killers would think nothing of killing all you infidels and your families! If you think that being nice to the Muslim radicals will change them I say that is naive. The only thing they understand is force, not being nice. It is time for them to learn our way of doing business rather than the other way around! It is also time that someone stood up to the Muslim extremism that the world has ignored for hundreds of years. I say quit being so naive and following the left wing mindset that makes evil good and good evil. I equate the current bunch of lefties in this country with the communists of the old Soviet Union who killed millions of their own people with barely a whisper from the liberal elite in this country. Don’t forget what Josef Stalin said about the liberals in the USA-He called them useful idiots! I guess somethings never change. GW should get a medal after what slick Willy did with China and the campaign kickbacks he got for giving technology to Red China. That and how he covered up the flight 800 shootdown. ps-what size black burka do you wear and did you want your head cut off in one or more whacks?
Are Bush and Cheney war criminals? Is the Pope Catholic?
Bradley White, blah blah blah…..go back to Israel, the country that you’re most loyal to. Go spread your hate and propaganda there. You war-loving,war-profiteering neocons are the ones who make enemies for the U.S. FYI not all Muslims are terrorist-extremists like you want everyone to believe. The attack and occupation of Iraq was completely unjustified, and you know it.
Are the criminals ready to bomb Iran? Why are the Iranian Jews leaving Iran and heading to Israel, and getting $10,000 each to resettle in Israel? Of course we American taxpayers are footing the bill.
I saw your type in Iraq Brady. I intervened to stop your type from treating Iraqi insurgents badly. I climbed out of my cockpit one time when a US soldier yelled at and hit an Iraqi in the legs. The Iraqi’s crime to get beaten in the legs: he was confused and masked in 140 degree heat (without water) and did not know what to do. Was necessary? Please answer since you seem to be calling yourself knowing of these types of things.
And it is not that you as an individual have to treat the Muslim’s like your best friend but you can’t treat them badly. Can you see the difference? And can you tell me what torturing people does? Does it make you feel good because it seems like you hold a grudge. Yes, they ran planes into buildings but this is an incredibly small minority of Muslims. Have we done anything to Muslim’s that would tick them off? I believe so. It is a huge list but the latest is the invasion and catastrophic occupation of Iraq.
Then you might say that we invaded Iraq because Saddam was a tyrant to his own people (because certainly now the WMD has been fully debunked). With this logic, we invaded Iraq to save the Iraq people because we liked them so much. Hum, doesn’t seem to fit with you logic.
Then you blame Clinton because of campaign contributions. Even if that is true, what does that have to do with the crimes of torture and invading Iraq?
I am also curious as to what you were doing at Gitmo. Is it something you want to share? Perhaps you will share it with you children? Oh, I see! You should be ashamed; you are an accomplice. If you don’t intervene to stop actions, you are just as guilty. That is part of the UCMJ, Bradley.
.
You probably go to church too but you should also remember that the man Jesus represents was an insurgent.
barely human said: “…And the Right accuses the Left of cowardice and moral relativism.”
And I accuse the “Right” of being wrong. How amoral and cowardly to attack a weak country without any proof of wrong-doing and kill over a million innocent civilians (more than two million if you count both Bush Sr and Bush Jr’s presidencies).
How amoral to pretend to be godly and better than others and exploit religion for political gain. Isn’t Jesus the Prince of Peace? Do you neocons know what that title means? You like to ignore it, don’t you. How cowardly is it to torture prisoners who can’t fight back, ones that have not been found guilty of any crime and who are “suspects.”
I wonder what the world thinks of the U.S. after seeing the pictures of the naked young Iraqi prisoners piled on pyramids and being forced to masturbate while an ugly, barbarian American inbred woman makes fun of them.
You neocons claim the Gitmo prisoners are in a “tropical paradise” and that water-boarding is not torture. You just mouth off and say any ridiculous thing that comes to your deranged minds. Bet you’d change your tune if you were locked up and water-boarded. You right-wing war lovers should be ashamed of yourselves, but you have no shame.
Shame requires introspection. Neocons do not engage in introspection and certainly never admit error, and are thus incapable of shame. Laws, democracy, international treaties, human rights, etc. are all merely inconveniences to be circumvented in the pursuit of their goals.
Therefore, “neocon” is another word for “sociopath”.
Hey, they are fingering bush with a torture tape! Like thats unreal man! He must like that!
Bradley Whitey- Read up buddy. find “The Green Peril” by the cato institute, on-line, and read up on how you have been brainwashed and cannot think for yourself. Grow a brain while you watch your constitution burn, with your lame brain help. Why not look threw the books and read how Bushs grandpappy was supporting Nazi Germany or how he has said the constitution was “only a piece of paper”. Those killers? Law proves that, bring them law and JUSTICE, then talk.
So, how many did you rape? I know you liked the power and the control you had. Its in your personality. I’m sure you took every opportunity, didn’t you? They looked just like Jesus really did, poor, beaten, hanging from their shackles and you just wanted to make them yours, huh? Did you get lots of rape trading cards from your “buddies”? Or where you a paper boy sitting pretty on the “Tropical Island” with no action except the local girls you force yourself on? We know all about the abuses and personally I don’t want you back in this country, so, feel free, be a statistic, off yourself while the going is good. You will have your whole life to learn from your actions as you beat yourself up on and on and on again. See those old vets on the side of the road begging? Your next! Unless….BANG! Your free to go.
P.S. Kool-Aid is for white trash, like you find in the service. If you want to torture go to dubai like all the rest and there you get free girls depending who you work for. I hear dyncorp has the most slave girls and is the biggest in the sex slave business, ask Cheney. But you Bradley Whitey, might want to work for Michael Jackson now that he is there, Huh? Twinky eater!
bradley white = sociopath
I know there are others besides myself, who believe that it’s time for a different kind of citizen action. It seems to me that for whatever reason, these protests and marches which are aimed at influencing our representatives and elected officials have achieved very little or nothing. I do not see why this would change in the near future. It is time for us to wise up and try to act to throw wrenches into the gears of the machine that enables these people to wage wars and perpetuate injustice. Just walking down the streets and yelling is extremely ineffective. Just remember that marching and waving signs is not the only way to influence change. There is much more that can be done if you just put your mind to it.
If you are not familiar with the goings on in the military, the phenomenon of “Brad Smith” in the military is all too common. It is a huge and growing problem in the military, although can’t grow too much father. I’d say at least 80% of the military thinks like Brad from time to time. Out of being shot at several times in Iraq, it was nothing in compared to dealing with this mentality for a year; I was absolutely disgusted…and it was hard to find sane people to talk to.
I’d say a quarter to half of the remaining 20% are outspoken about ethics/morality and half of those are mad as hell about the war.
What a pickle we are in. We have lost sight of what it will take to survive as a human inhabitant on our earth. I know the answer is not war and destruction, but the concerted effort of everyone to help each other.
We need to be grounded to this earth and not to the salvation of an unworldly eternal life. The vast majority of humans believe in an afterlife. And that may be good if it means that to achieve the best possible afterlife outcome we live to a higher moral standard here on earth. Unfortunately this does not seem plausible when we all believe in the idea of one God, but my God belief is better than someone else’s belief. It was so much simpler to believe in the spirits of the earth, sun, moon, water, which do keep and nourish us, and if we do not respect and treat them correctly, does mean the end of human life here on earth.
What we should be talking about is how to change the US of A into a peace loving country, how to control the world population growth trend peacefully and what we can do to prevent potential ecological disasters.
I have noted the many scenarios ‘to change things’ such as petitions, not paying taxes, a no purchase day and so forth. I think we have to start at day one of our childrens’ lives, and not expose them to any violent media (including cartoons), violent games/toys, violent sports, and so forth. This is just a training ground for the US military machine.
One way to change our government and stop our wars is not to support the American fighting machine and corporations involved. And this will mean not supporting our troops, who are doing the fighting and killing. How can we keep on supporting the troops and be against our wars of aggression? This is a sad state of affairs that came out of the VietNam era, and it is seen as unpatriotic to be against our brave men and women in uniform. We should support our troops by getting them out of our occupations of other countries and bringing them home to their families.
The move toward alternative energy other than fossil fuel is another move toward peace, in that we would be less likely to worry about invading other countries for their oil. We could move toward this even on an individual basis. I am brought to tears when thinking about our destruction of other countries and their people. And what good we could have done with all the billions of dollars wasted.
The most likely scenario of the US of A changing its imperialistic policies will be a result of a coalition of other countries fighting us, crashing our currency and economy, not trading with us, and guerrila/terrorist acts-unfortunately. I am not sure the answer will come peacefully from within at this time.
The cowardice of Bush supporters would be pathetic if it weren’t so dangerous. So some hut-dwelling Muslims want to kill Americans? 9/11 was a terrible crime, but it was not a threat to our existence of our nation like the Nazis and the Soviets were. I’m supposed to cower and beg for Bush to take away my rights as a citizen and torture anyone who might oppose U.S. foreign policy? I oppose U.S. foregn policy! Our founding fathers were willing to die for the rights Bush has taken away, and some did die! They died so that those accused of crimes (like terrorism) would have habeas corpus. They died for posse comitatus. What principles would Bush supporters die for? The safety and material comfort of their family? Big deal, stray dogs fight for those kinds of things. SUVs and big screen TVs are not principles. What happened to “Give me liberty or give me death,” you so-called patriots?
We have the biggest military in the world! Who should we be afraid of? Man up, neoconservatives! Only cowards go around bullying weaker people.
Saddam Hussein was no threat to me. Neither is Iran. So they hate your foreign policy. I’m not afraid of them. They only reason they can kill so many Americans is because you sent so many Americans into their countries, for reasons that have been proven false. Why should I believe and trust you now? I can’t think of a single reason.
If you go around killing anyone who doesn’t like you and torturing anyone who might have information about potential threats, not only will more people hate you, not less, but they will be right to, because you will have become the threat. If you continue on your course it’s only a matter of time before you begin torturing and killing innocent Americans, and you’ll kill far more than the Islamofascists have. So who’s the bigger threat to my freedom, the religious fascists in my government or some religious fascists living in huts halfway around the world?
If there is another terrorist attack, I hope it doesn’t kill anyone who opposes waterboarding and pre-emptive war. But if so, I’m willing to trade some of my safety in exchange for the Bill of Rights and Geneva Conventions.
bradley white December 25th, 2007 8:27 pm
Just exactly what were you doing at “Gitmo”? Personally, I think you’re Cheeto eating fat boy living in your mother’s basement, but, if you really were in the Cuban concentration camp, that makes you liable for war crimes as well.
barely human,
If there’s a bona fide terrorist running amok on your street and you lean on the Second Ammendment in self-defense, probably any judge in the country will be lenient on you.
If you are mistakenly jailed without ability to see a lawyer, tortured, spied on, silenced, etc. — and all of this is perfectly legal — then you have a far worse problem.
See where this dynamic risks ultimately leading? It’s not a simple matter of “trading safety for security”. It’s also a matter of trading self-determination, the ability for people to look out for themselves, toward complete state subjugation. It’s a slope toward Stalinism or some other sort of fascism. In that model, the state “never” commits any crimes of its own (it walks on water, so to speak) — and people cannot defend themselves from anything whatsoever, whether verbally or otherwise. Rule by sociopaths.
You cant just walk home after doing things like that and have everything just be back to normal.
I never thought tapes had fingers. That must hurt.
Yawn! Another article and still no serious movement towards impeachment. I just figured out that with our lame duck president we also have “lame duck” citizens. I guess it’s all of the artificial sweeteners in the food supply that has dumbed down the citizenry.
Have a “diet” Coke and a smile…
earthbound December 26th, 2007 10:32 am
“….One way to change our government and stop our wars is not to support the American fighting machine and corporations involved. And this will mean not supporting our troops, who are doing the fighting and killing. How can we keep on supporting the troops and be against our wars of aggression?…”
That’s what I have been preaching for a while. Our troops are making all these wars or aggression possible. There is no way I can or will (or you should) support our troops.
In that photo, Bush resemles Lee Harvey Oswald.
Saila He is a big ass!
Paul Bramscher,
The trade for security already has arrived at Stalinism, if not, beyond it. Look at the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and you will see that we already are there. It has given Bush more power than anything Stalin and Hitler could have dreamed of getting.
Flight 800 was not shot down BRADLEY WHITE. There was indeed an explosion in the the 747s center fuel tank due to faluty wiring. There was no conspiracy.
I’m a liberal I suppose with your opinion, because I wish to see our enviroment cleaned up and that all prisoners, military or otherwise are afforded the right to a lawyer and a fair and speedy trial. I also do not believe torture of any kind is ever acceptable and so called waterboarding is torture. At least one prisoner we are aware of, died from that treatment.
There are liberals and far to the left extreme liberals. Extremism is the problem, not the titles left or right. You sound as if you are an extremist to the far right, which to me is far worse than to the far left, at least they don’t start unjust wars. and lump all Muslems as a dangerous radical group. It is people such as yourelf who start holy wars.
The question is: who gave this power to him? One side-effect of a non-democracy is that the genuine populist support of that decree may not be worth its weight in cotton fiber. In other words, his yes-men gave it to him — the country as a whole did not.
Only time will tell on that one.
Many American think that it takes 8 years to prove that Bush doesn’t work for America. But the image looks lovely enough!
KEM — Our buddy PAC PLYER has direct experience of the issues surrounding TWA 800, and he reversed my perception (but the facts are twisted into a knot of Gordian proportion).
I don’t recall which thread we went back and forth about 9/11 and other ‘false flag’ issues, just this moment (but it was last mon