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TechnoratiAs Christians across the world prepare to celebrate the birth of Jesus, it's a fitting moment to contemplate the mountain of moral, and mortal, hypocrisy that is our Christianized Republican Party.There's nothing new, of course, about the Christianization of the GOP. Seven years ago, when debating Al Gore, then-candidate George W. Bush was asked to identify his favorite philosopher and answered "Jesus." This year, however, the Christianization of the party reached new heights with Mitt Romney's declaration that he believed in Jesus as his savior, in an effort to stanch the flow of "values voters" to Mike Huckabee.
My concern isn't the rift that has opened between Republican political practice and the vision of the nation's Founders, who made very clear in the Constitution that there would be no religious test for officeholders in their enlightened new republic. Rather, it's the gap between the teachings of the Gospels and the preachings of the Gospel's Own Party that has widened past the point of absurdity, even as the ostensible Christianization of the party proceeds apace.
The policies of the president, for instance, can be defended in greater or (more frequently) lesser degree within a framework of worldly standards. But if Bush can conform his advocacy of preemptive war with Jesus's Sermon on the Mount admonition to turn the other cheek, he's a more creative theologian than we have given him credit for. Likewise his support of torture, which he highlighted again this month when he threatened to veto House-passed legislation that would explicitly ban waterboarding.
It's not just Bush whose catechism is a merry mix of torture and piety. Virtually the entire Republican House delegation opposed the ban on waterboarding. Among the Republican presidential candidates, only Huckabee and the not-very-religious John McCain have come out against torture, while only libertarian Ron Paul has questioned the doctrine of preemptive war.
But it's on their policies concerning immigrants where Republicans -- candidates and voters alike -- really run afoul of biblical writ. Not on immigration as such but on the treatment of immigrants who are already here. Consider: Christmas, after all, celebrates not just Jesus's birth but his family's flight from Herod's wrath into Egypt, a journey obviously undertaken without benefit of legal documentation.
The Bible isn't big on immigrant documentation. "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him," Exodus says the Lord told Moses on Mount Sinai, "for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." Yet the distinctive cry coming from the Republican base this year isn't simply to control the flow of immigrants across our borders but to punish the undocumented immigrants already here, children and parents alike.
So Romney attacks Huckabee for holding immigrant children blameless when their parents brought them here without papers, and Huckabee defends himself by parading the endorsement of the Minuteman Project's Jim Gilchrist, whose group harasses day laborers far from the border.
The demand for a more regulated immigration policy comes from virtually all points on our political spectrum, but the push to persecute the immigrants already among us comes distinctly, though by no means entirely, from the same Republican right that protests its Christian faith at every turn.
We've seen this kind of Christianity before in America. It's more tribal than religious, and it surges at those times when our country is growing more diverse and economic opportunity is not abounding. At its height in the 1920s, the Ku Klux Klan was chiefly the political expression of nativist Protestants upset by the growing ranks of Catholics in their midst.
It's difficult today to imagine KKKers thinking of their mission as Christian, but millions of them did.
Today's Republican values voters don't really conflate their rage with their faith. Lou Dobbs is a purely secular figure. But nativist bigotry is strongest in the Old Time Religion precincts of the Republican Party, and woe betide the Republican candidate who doesn't embrace it, as John McCain, to his credit and his political misfortune, can attest.
The most depressing thing about the Republican presidential race is that the party's rank and file require their candidates to grow meaner with each passing week. And now, inconveniently, inconsiderately, comes Christmas, a holiday that couldn't be better calibrated to expose the Republicans' rank, fetid hypocrisy.
Harold Meyerson is editor-at-large of American Prospect and the L.A. Weekly.
© 2007 Washington Post
83 Comments so far
Show AllConsider the child's soul having taken a fast elevator up the karmic ladder, that we can only imagine.
Perhaps occupying a body is hell on earth for those destined to higher purposes, and are only just visiting us?
From the point of view of the pure spirit, which is better:
a.) return to God's graces, or
b.) retained in human form for X years ?
Death is not the enemy, our of fear of love is far worse
IiIIUIU, I beleive God allows the innocent ones to return to their original home. That is just my personal belief.
I'm not a Republican, God forbid, if not God, me forbid. God does not control everything that goes on with the lives of humanity on this planet. He certainly is not in control of Bush and company. __ I believe Lucifer may be offering suggestions.
Four children from the same family died in a fire in a town in Alaska a couple of weekends ago.
Hey Republicans, you claim to know just about everything. Now please explain why God didn't prevent those children from dying. I will wait for your answer.
Religion, in common with many other aspects of our lives is cynically exploited to divide people into groups of "them" and "us". In the United States there should be only one group in politics and that should be "We the People".
iwarrior -
You definitely have a vision and it's probably better than mine.
"So I should just stay focused? Ignore the bottles and tomatoes being thrown about? Put on my elephant skin?"
Well, I don't think you'll find people lining up ahead of you to be the group conscience in any place or venue because it's a thankless job. Oh, we'll let you do it, with a wink and nod between ourselves. I just think that eventually you'll want to move on to an easier task.
Happy Hollidays and New Year, and to all a good night!
On Donner, on Blickson, on Sandra Day O'Connor, er…
A little mush is Okay.
Thanks KEM. You have a Happy Holiday and a Grand New Year. Even if I don't always agree, your wisdom and perspective is a gift to us all.
Yeah, that was cornball. But hey, it's Xmas.
Awright, let's not get too mushy. :)
Good posts IWARRIOR and IPENEK
lpenek-Good thoughts and advice.
I do have a bad habit of letting people get to me. So I should just stay focused? Ignore the bottles and tomatoes being thrown about? Put on my elephant skin?
"_I_ know what liberalism should be, and _I_ always have my eye on the prize, and I'm not going to let some granola-eater (Left) or yahoo (Right) knock me off my pedestal."
That's not a bad motto. :)
I think that part of it is how I view Common Dreams. I don't like to think of this site as a mere gathering place for liberals. I think CD should be reaching out to people. I don't want someone coming here and feeling alienated. I know I don't own the site, but still. The Left should be give solace to people and empower them, not smack them upside down because of their religion, background, etc.
I have my own vision also, and it's another reason why I stopped coming here for a little while. We end up having the same discussions (fights) over the same things. How many more headlines and opinion pieces can one read on how corrupt The Bush administration is, how dodgy the Democrats can be, how the Iraq War is a crime and a sham, how the gap between rich and poor is widening, and how the polluted the environment has become? It can make a guy weary. Also, the solutions to at least most of these problems are pretty obvious and simple to me. I feel as if I already know what our biggest problems are, who and what is causing them, and how to fix them. Maybe I'm just tired of reading, talking, and posting. I want to do something. I want someone to do something.
Oh well, Happy Holidays. Perhaps the New Year will bring us some positive change so that we're not all angry at one another anymore.
iwarrior -
Too much in your post to quote or even respond to but,
I could reply with a few dumb platitudes:
"I hear ya"
"I feel your pain" (little thumb up, bites lip)
but how about a little practical advice. Let's focus on your last statement:
"There are times when I've spent more time defending against certain haters and demonizers that I forgot to talk about my views on the subject being discussed."
Yes, I've noticed.
I, on the other hand, smugly realize that we're all from the same tribal origins, we're all going to be stupid asses some (most?) of the time. And I have no Rodney King-itis at all; I was inoculated long ago. Instead I concentrate on my vision of what I want from the world. _I_ know what liberalism should be, and _I_ always have my eye on the prize, and I'm not going to let some granola-eater (Left) or yahoo (Right) knock me off my pedestal.
Of course this works backward too, since we all have our vision of the Right, and yes, perhaps this is often a gross caricature.
The only thing that ever really burns me (and I'm not talking about you) is when someone says something like the following:
"I'm progressive, but when the Left starts talking about ________ (fill in one issue) it almost makes me want to turn to the Right."
If a person has that weak a vision then I say, great, goodbye, I'll send you a card in Hell.
...a lovely thought for Xmas eve!
Meeeheeeheeerrry Christmaaaasss.
Religious right wingers (and others) need to read their Bible and learn how to treat the stranger within the commons:
1 Chronicles 29:15 (New International Version)
15 We are aliens and strangers in your sight, as were all our forefathers. Our days on earth are like a shadow, without hope.
32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street,
for my door was always open to the traveler-
Job 31:32 (American Standard Version)
32 (The sojourner hath not lodged in the street; But I have opened my doors to the traveller);
Job 29:16 (New International Version)
12 "Hear my prayer, O LORD,
listen to my cry for help;
be not deaf to my weeping.
For I dwell with you as an alien,
a stranger, as all my fathers were
Psalm 39:12 (New International Version)
Genesis 15:13
Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.
Genesis 15:12-14
Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.
Isaiah 1:6-8
O Hope of Israel, its Savior in times of distress, why are you like a stranger in the land, like a traveler who stays only a night?
Jeremiah 14:7-9
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
Those who would treat the stranger harshly should know they may be persecuting the visitor from heaven who will say to Him that that sent them, "they treated me like a vile person."
The Christian Right is neither. The Bible states clearly that the "devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning." Mr. Bush has been a liar and a murderer from the beginning. God's Kingdom is a kingdom of the spirit, in mercy, peace and truth. The Christian Republicans show no mercy, create faction and division, support illegal and unconstitutional wars, and lie as a matter of daily habit, constantly subverting the truth for the sake of their political and financial ambitions. American cultural christianity is the church of apostasy that the Bible warns will be in power in the last days; all our leaders are rapacious demons and the state is the permanent idolatry of the god of destruction. If the blind follow the blind , will they not all fall into the ditch(of oblivion)? The fall and destruction of spiritual and political Babylon(confusion) approach with great violence; a great storm rages on all sides. A vain hope betrays for the end of the world draws near. Only a fool says in his heart, "there is no God."
Very Good Bill, that's how I understood it.
I suppose some could refer to his actions as political, but I doubt he would have considered it as such. I'm certain the politicans, and religious leaders did. He came here to die for us, he shed his blood for us and his father allowed it. ___ It was the only way.
Strange how some people are certain men such as Costantine lived durng that time, but doubt Jesus did.
KEM-I never said I was perfect. I hate the people in power, and I have hated certain indviduals in my life. I don't take pride in it. I have a lot of work to do on myself.
I do hate. I hate people in positions of power who abuse, divide, and exploit. I hate war, poverty, capitalism, intolerance, imperialism. I hate things that are truly evil, things that cause great suffering. I hate people who make innocents suffer.
I was talking about hating segments of the population. Hating Christians won't end intolerance. Hating Muslims won't end terrorism. That's what people on the right and often the left are guilty of.
Kem,
The Sadducees were an educated class. The Pharisees were generally the wealthy power elite. The Essenes were an ascetic, mostly cloistered group. The Zealots were a secret paramilitary revolutionary group.
IMHO, Jesus was none of the above at the time of his ministry. John the Baptist may have been or studied as an Essene. Simon, one of Jesus' followers was or had been a zealot.
Much of Jesus' teaching centered on the emerging kingdom of God. (The kingdom of God is like ...). The teaching was radically egalitarian and provided an individual with direct access to God. It was not necessary to pay the temple priests for intercession or make sin offerings for forgiveness. In God's kingdom, God's forgiveness was intertwined with mutual human forgiveness (see the Lord's prayer).
He spoke with and taught women as equals with men. He would speak with women without their male guardian present.
He apparently flaunted the Levitical laws. He touched unclean lepers. He healed on the Sabbath.
All of these behaviors were outrageous to the religious establishment. His bypassing the temple authority to forgive sins was a serious threat to financial stability. His treating of women as equals was profoundly threatening to the patriarchal society.
His ministry changed after he decided to go to Jerusalem and directly challenge the evils he saw in his society. I believe he saw this as the climax of his ministry and fully understood that it would inevitably lead to his arrest and execution.
The evils he chose to challenge were an oppressive military occupation by the Romans and an unequal distribution of wealth and power in Jewish society in Jerusalem and the temple. This led to the two acts of political theatre I mentioned earlier and were the proximate cause of his arrest.
The Palm Sunday entry into Jerusalem proclaimed that God is king. The gospels say that Jesus was publically proclaimed Messiah (the leader that will re-establish the throne of King David). What this means is that God is and Caesar is NOT king. To the Romans, this is clearly sedition.
My guess, and that's all it is, is that Jesus was suprised that he was not immediately arrested. He then staged the cleansing of the temple to protest the unfair taxation and tithe system as a second act of theatre.
When Jesus was subsequently executed, there were 3 persons crucified together. Crucifixion was not the method of execution of common criminals; it was especially for revolutionaries and other such enemies of the Roman state. The two others with Jesus are called thieves in most English translations. A more accurate term would be brigands. This was the term the Romans used for revolutionaries and the Romans executed these 3 men together.
Thats probably more than you wanted as a response, but you know I am longwinded.
Peace and a Blessed Christmas,
Bill
You wrote you hate there a couple of times and end with. 'Just stop hating'. Good advice, ___ don't look tomorrow.
Of course bad things are being done in the name of Christianity. It's happening with Islam and Judaism also. But that doesn't taint those religions entirely or the people who follow them. It's up to all of us, good followers and secular people alike to take a stand against those corrupt forces who manipulate religion for ill.
Look, there is a lot not to like about organizied religion. I'll admit that. I've encountered it myself. But I just think it's wrong to take a crap on all of it.
People on the Right like to characterize Islam as some sort of bloody deathcult because of the heinous actions of a few. But just because the Right does that, doesn't mean that the Left should to the same to Christianity, especially when it has been a catalyst for much progressive change.
Siouxrose-I agree with at least some of what you said. It is diabolical what the Christian Right is doing, but is Al Qaeda representative of Islam.
Bush and Co.'s 8 year crime wave hasn't been motivated by Christianity. Christianity is not the cause of imperialsim, capitalism, greed and hate. It is merely a tool that can be used for great evil as well as great good. That's what we need to realize. We cannot afford to alienate more people. Doing that will either cause them to go rightward into the fire or into...well nowhere.
And I'm pretty much a secular person myself. Again, it's not as if I'm biased. The last time I was at church was at least 7 years ago for a wedding. I snicker at the televangelists too. I think Pat Robertson should go to jail. I hate the Christian Right as much as anyone here. They hate me too. I'm a liberal metalhead who sees through their BS. :)
There's nothing wrong with Christianity. There's nothing wrong with Islam. What's wrong is how some people misinterpret and use it.
lpenek sez...
"My 2 cents re neomonk/iwarrior position: I'm of the opinion that the left is quite a bit more secular than anyone cares to admit, and quite a bit less willing to see the blatant divide between fundamentalist and more spiritual Christian.
To a certain extent, and I hope this doesn't offend–and I will say that this IS my view: You're suffering from a certain galloping Rodney King-itis. We're NOT just going to 'get along.' Pretty much the Left hates the Right and vise-versa. And the Left is quite as capable as the Right of reactionary hatred. Will this ever resolve, or are we destined for a kind of Bosnian balkanization? I don't know. It would be nice to think so, but I wouldn't count on it."
Theres nothing wrong with being secular. I would gather that most Americans are secular, more than they themselves would care to admit. There's nothing wrong with being religious either. The Right thnks there's something wrong with me for being secular (meanwhile, how many of the righward radio bigmouths actually go to church or temple), and it seems that a lot of people on the Left would find me deficient for believing in God and for defending religion.
"They don't care, they don't want to care, and they certainly don't want to spend the time to find out. A Christian–any Christian–is guilty by association. (BTW, I'm not endorsing this belief, in case you're wondering, this is just my analysis.)"
Well they had better care, because they're hurting their own movement more than anything and are being highly hypocritical at the same time in regards to religious tolerance. Most Americans are spiritual. Most are also progressive. Does it do any good to spit on and ridicule those people?
We have to "get along." Most of the people who subscribe to conservatism are being negatively affected by the policies they support.
This is why despite considering myself a self-styled progressive, I can't see myself on the frontlines. All I really see are two subcultures fighting each other. And it's not doing any good. And these subcultures to me seem to about identity politics and not about how to make America and the rest of the world a better place. Now, I think that the Left has the correct solutions. But the ordinary people who are conservatives don't see it that way. The people of the Right who are in positions of power are a different story. I think they're pretty heinous. They know who benefits from their policies and who doesn't (the majority of us). But as for the ordinary folks, they know not what they do. And I'm not talking about the Ivy Leaguers. I'm talking about the person who drives a truck or lives in a trailer or scrapes by like most of us do. He/she isn't part of that subculture per se. They aren't the ones going to rallies or posting on boards. The rest of us I think are just disillusioned. They don't know where to turn.
I've posted here and on sites where conservatives were the majority. The fact that we're looking at two different subcultures has never been more obvious to me. These subcultures are based on who and what they don't like. The people they hate are funhouse mirror images, and they themselves are funhouse mirror images.
The conservatives will rail about blacks, feminists, Northerners, urbanites, academia, Hispanics, Muslims, seculars, homosexuals, the poor, the working class, Jews, etc. making it appear as if those groups all exist for the sole purpose of destroying white, American, middle-class, Christian heterosexual males.
The liberals (not all I know, but a good bit of them) seem to act as if anything that is American, white, Christian, heterosexual, and male is something they need to hate with all of their hearts. They rock the "us vs. them" as much as the Right. How can someone stand with a movement, when there's a perception that most of the people within it think that you're at best, dumb, weak-minded, fat, unhip, and lame. At worst you're racist, sexist, homophobic, intolerant, bloodthirsty, parasitic, genocidal, bent towards rape, greedy, etc.
And the intolerance overlaps with that of The Right. I've seen as much contempt for Jews, the working-class, poor whites, the rural, and most surprising of all, youth as much as I have seen from any conservative.
It seems regardless of who or what you are, someone on the right or the left has at least a great deal of disdain for you. It pushes people away from a social consciousness. They end up just shuffling along because they figure in the end, politics don't matter to anyone aside from power-hungry demogogues. They figure that it's all about who you are against. Who is your natural enemy, your opposite number?
It all distracts from the real issues at hand. I've allowed it to distract me. There are times when I've spent more time defending against certain haters and demonizers that I forgot to talk about my views on the subject being discussed.
And when you don't toe the line or are misunderstood, watch out!
I know I'm rambling, and I'm sure tomorrow I will look at what I wrote and cringe at the choppiness.
Just stop hating. No socioeconomic/religious group is inherently evil or inherently good. You could get rid of all the Christians and all of the Muslims and abolish those faiths, and I suspect that nothing would really change.
Indeed we do Ticonderoga.
Have you happened to read and or see on the news, what is occurring at our Air Force Academy? It's like an evangilical camp meeting. If any cadet doesn't join in, they are threatened by the Christians. I'm almost expecting to see some burned at the stake. Those are our future AF military pilots. It sure ain't the hard drinking Navy Tail Hookers. ___ Which of course needed some toning down.
BTW, Jesus did live here for 33 years, there is ample evidence. A lot of disagreement as to who he actually was.
Kem, my post wasn't at all directed at the dialogue between you and Billy. I was responding to the article itself, which is about the wide dichotomy between the teachings of Christ, as outlined in the Bible, and the actions of the GOP.
Of course Myerson is correct that such a wide dichotomy exists, whether or not Christ ever existed, but my point is that if our Constitution was actually adhered to the Christian religion wouldn't enter into the political equation at all.
Ergo, our Constitution isn't being adhered to, which is the real problem. And I suspect we both agree with that.
Okay Bill, what political party did Jesus support during his days?
There were several different political factions at that time.
Siouxrose: I'd like to know which of my positions you don't agree with. I can honestly only think of one area where you would have serious disagreement with me. Of course, my knowledge of you and your thought process are quite limited, coming only from the text here at CD.
Having said that, you dodged my point. There is a TON of outright vitrol for religion/spirituality in general (not limited to the destructive aspects/sects), which (of course) would include you and your beliefs. Why is this acceptable? You're being called a fool because you have a different spiritual outlook than someone else, and you're defending that position! It honestly boggles my mind.
Again, I fully concur with and understand the angst levied against the ruling powers that be, especially from those who feel it's a spiritual 'crime' (not EXACTLY how I see it, but it's close enough) to use a message of peace as a propaganda tool for war. Yet again, that's not what many posters above are saying at all. They are being downright bigoted in insisting that anyone who doesn't follow THEIR religion is gullible or psychotic. You would recognize that if it were christians saying the same about muslims or hindus, what about atheists makes them immune from religious bigotry?
honestly confused,
neomunk
NEOMONK: I find you intelligent but almost never agree with your positions, it's probably some nuance of the cosmic chemistry between our chart profiles. Nonetheless, I usually receive affirmation in this forum far more than negative response. I have no idea what you are talking about therefore. Second, yes, I have a lot of empathy and rage against the machine, as per the robotic behavior being normalized by the various authoritarian ganglia killing LIFE in the BODY of Creation. Any problem I personally have with these creeds is the root of FORMER incarnations; but as a believer in the circle, it's all too clear what WAS is heading back around, and to the degree sentient minds can use varied Zen devices to offset its ruinous return, to THAT I donate my time, energy and intelligence. Happy holidays.
lpenek:
You're absolutely right about my 'Rodney King-ism'. I thought I'd find articulate debate and meaningful conversation here (you can in most topics), foolishly as it turns out. I'm a pariah amongst the (un)faithful and that's all that matters, I suppose. I will correct my mistaken assumptions. Oh, and no offense taken at all, your post was spot-on.
Siouxrose:
Yep, everything you said is true, but you're implying that what you said is the position being forwarded here in this forum, which is mistaken. Read again. You'll find that some posters are talking about specifically what you mentioned, and more power to them. You've probably seen me post often enough by now to know I have no love of authoritarian power structures, hypocrisy OR (especially, as I take it personally) using the name of a peacemaker to further wars.
That's not what's being said though... What's being said is that all religious/spiritual ideas are the product of fear/control structures, delusional minds, or outright idiocy. I take offense to that, you should too. You personally are being attacked here, but I think you're missing that due to your (large) spirit of community and caring for your fellow CDers. Look though, and see that those who you would defend are marginalizing you, are calling you gullible and foolish, because you're not a subscriber to THEIR RELIGION.
Personally, I think progressives should fight injustice in ALL it's forms, most especially when it's coming from a group you're self-associated with. If progressives don't call out other progressives on their prejudices, who will listen? The words I was speaking out against were words of bigotry and intolerance, not the cries for social justice.
Kem,
I still differ with you on the interface of religion and politics. As a Christian, I believe I am to do both acts of mercy and justice in my life.
Acts of mercy generally are not political. You give to the poor. You serve in a soup kitchen. You comfort someone who is grieving. - not political.
Justice is almost always political. Set aside the question of should there be a death penalty at all for a moment:
It is a fact that, in those states that have a death penalty, a black person killing a white person is 50 times more likely to receive a death penalty than a white person killing a black person. In many states the statistic cannot be calculated because there has never been a death sentence of a white for killing a black.
This is obviously injustice. I believe it is incumbent upon Christians to work to correct such an injustice. To address such an injustice is inherently very political.
Have a joyous Christmas.
Bill
polsci,
You asked the difference between an evangelical and a non-evangelical Christian. I will take an honest stab at answering your question.
Theologically, an evangelical would say that the central issue of Christianity is salvation; getting to heaven after death. The way to heaven is holding a very specific set of beliefs: Jesus is the son of God by the Holy Spirit; that He was born in order that he might die; that his innocent sacrificial death provides the only means for salvation.
An evangelical Christian is more likely to believe: the Bible is perfectly correct and perfectly inspired by God; the Genesis creation story is historically accurate; that the Jewish people have a particular favor with God as his chosen people (Jesus was born a Jew); Jesus was born by a miracle of a virgin; Jesus actually struggled/argued with Satan in the wilderness; that Jesus was actually transformed on a mountaintop with some of his followers; that Jesus was resurrected by God after his execution; that Jesus ascended to heaven with some of his followers watching.
An evangelical is likely to say you are going to hell unless you have the above belief system. Muslims, Buddists and Hindus are screwed when they die. Some evangelicals make an exception for Jews.
There are other groups within Christianity which tend to be lumped together with the evangelicals but may have a different emphasis. The pentacostals and the holiness groups come to mind.
The other end of protestant Christianity would tend to say that the Bible is humankind's understanding of its relationship with God; many of the human authors of the Bible had a close relationship with God. The creation story of Genesis is an attempt to describe our relationship to our loving creator. Many of the stories and teachings that the evangelical would describe as historically accurate can be read as metaphor, parable or representative of a specific culture rather than literal and inerrant.
Theologically, mainstream protestantism might say that Christianity is about a way of life. That such a life leads to a relationship with God/Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. That such a relationship trancends and is enhanced after death.
Mainstream protestants would be more likely to honor Islam, Hindi or Buddism as alternative paths to a relationship with God.
As a practical matter, evangelicals would place more emphasis on 'winning souls for Christ' whereas mainstream would place more emphasis on caring for the poor and disadvantaged.
As to which is 'better' is a matter of where you are coming from. The evangelical end of Christendom will tend to give you more black and white answers as to right and wrong; More "us" and "them" views of the world. The clergy tends to be exclusively male in most evangelical denominations. The clergy and congregations generally tend to be straight.
Personally, I come from mainstream protestantism. Within my denomination, I tend to be at the liberal (i.e. metaphorical as opposed to historical understanding of much of the Bible) end. Many evangelicals would probably consider me a heretic.
The Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches don't fit exclusively in with either stereotype very well.
Hope this helps,
Bill
I never denied that babe, religion has no place at all in politics and Huckabee is thumping his Bible all the way to a possible election. I cannot stand that lying dirt bag.
KEM, no augment there, religion does not belong in politics. What ever you believe, I respect that. But, its personal and should not be an issue in a campaign becase then it effects all of us if elected. Have a great day!
Hi SUSIE, hey it's almost Christmas eve. Hope I get some new skivvies and sox. There's a men's skivey and sock store in the nearest village to us, it's a little shop on 5th avenue. It's named 'Socks Fifth Avenue'.
I have never had the opportunity to speak with any trans-mediums, but my personal belief is, there are civilizations in our universe that have managed far higher scientific achievements than we have. We have the potential brain power, we just haven't learned how to unlock the necessary brain cells. It is well established that humanity here only uses about 8% of the brain cells available. Bush uses 1%.
I am certain the fables of the fabulous city of Atlantis and other "myths" have merit and the first settlers and seeders of Earth had powers we would consider to be mystical, or wizards. Something bad happened millions of years ago and we humans on Earth could be likened to pawns in a universal struggle.
There is ample evidence that we are being observed by higher intelligence. There is so much we just don't know, and the Earth's written history we have only goes back some 5,000 years. __ We will know someday. As you may recall, Ev and I had a rare opportunity to see a tiny bit of it.
Have a wonderful holiday Siouxrose, even if it has been corrupted by Capitalism. We can forget that for a day or so and enjoy family and life.
SALLY UUKENT: Right on! The only thing you left out is the new agenda of Christianizing our military! Nothing like telling a confused 18 year old boy who's been conditioned by mass culture to believe that KILLING = some rite to manhood, that 'god' sanctions this type of behavior because religions have become an extension of a team-sport win/lose mentality!
To IWARRIOR and NEOMONK: YOUR values are your own, and as a progressive, I honor your right to explore and/or worship them. What IS a problem is when the authoritarians enter into top eschelons of government and rewrite the rules, ALL the rules, and then try to hide behind the label of "christianity" in so-doing. WERE we not in a war that is causing the direct death of perhaps a million persons, and were that war not being fueled by religious zealots (the primary base that got Bush into office. And yes, oil is a factor, and yes, the military-industrial complex is a factor, and yes, Israel is a factor, and yes, the desire to condense power into the disgusting unitary executive BS is a factor) then this critical discussion would not be necessary. Of course there are devout Christians, but it's what's being done in Christianity's name that is so diabolical. And diabolical, it is. This is not a liberal "sit it out on the sidelines" polite tolerance debate; real damage is being done, continues to be furthered because the least conscionable, those opposed to the tenets of our constitution and privileged way of life, are using Christianity as their fig leaf. And judging by the megachurches and the MILLIONS of followers, by the tone and themes of the present Republican presidential debate, this is some scarry stuff!
KEM: I have had the privilege of meeting with several trans-mediums in my life, and the best of them told me that human life WAS seeded with alien (more intelligent) races several thousand years ago. Just as the white man arriving at distant ports was taken for a 'god' by the natives, so, too, have religions established these visitors of higher aptitude & intelligence as similar gods.
All of this BS is the reason that I became a Unitarian Universalist. I don't need any church telling me what to believe when I walk through the door, or to check my brain at the door, either. I don't need anyone forcing me to believe in a God that I'm never quite sure exists or to tell me that I must believe that Jesus is my own personal saviour. I don't need anyone telling me that the Bible is the literal truth and that every word is "the word of God" when I know darn well that it was written by fallible men centuries after Jesus died and is thus questionable in its authority.
I also don't believe in any kind of religious test to hold public office, because the Founding Fathers made sure that such a thing would not be required. They also wrote into the Constitution the separation of church and state, thus assuring that there would be no established religion in this country and that we would be a place of religious tolerance that allowed people to worship as they pleased.
Faith is, and should be, and MUST be a private affair. It's nobody's business what I believe unless I chose to tell them. I revile anyone who openly demands conversion of the masses to their way of thinking. And it seems to me that this is the very thing going on in this country today - an attempt to mass convert us to some warped version of Christianity that worships the almighty dollar, the cruel treatment of "the infidel" (non-Christians, immigrants) and ignores outright the needs of those less fortunate than themselves, the very opposite of what Christianity was meant to be in the first place.
Christianity has been warped beyond any recognizable form by a small, vocal and powerful minority who want to use it as a control mechanism. And while they have so far succeeded in their objective (talking a page right out of the playbook of the extremist Islamists), they haven't managed to get all of us. There are still some of us free thinkers who remember what the grey matter between the ears is supposed to be used for, and that's for thinking and using reason to work to defeat those who would wish otherwise.
I'm not one of those raving anti-Christian types who demands that there be no religious symbols whatsoever in any form, anywhere. I well remember manger scenes at Christmas time out in public areas and thought they were really nice, and I frankly kind of miss things like that. There are so few Christmas lights up in our downtown that they may as well not have bothered at all to put them up this year. I miss the lavish displays they used to have when I was a child. Maybe the politically correct have demanded this reduction in lights, but it somehow diminishes the whole spirit of Christmas if you ask me.
But I will not stand idly by as open declarations of one's religiosity become a defacto test of one's worthiness to hold public office. Some of our Founding Fathers were, in fact, Unitarians, who went on to become some of our greatest Presidents. They did not stand up in the public pulpit and declare their unswerving faith in God and Christ in order to win votes. They didn't need to, and nor should anyone else have to do so in order to win public office. What these people have done is, in fact, to make a complete and total sham of anything that even vaguely resembles Christianity.
And it's a shame that they've been allowed to get away with it thus far without so much as a peep from more moderate Christians about the corruption of their faith. When will the brave stand up and demand "ENOUGH!" and put a stop to this ugly bastardization of Christianity?
No I don't belive that at all IMAGINEUSA, guess you missed some of my posts. I believe there were humans living here for millions of years. BTW, the written history of Christ's time here on Earth is well documented, bullet proof evidence in many history book, long before any Bible was printed. So if you or any others don't believe those history books, you may a well not believe any history books.
Anyway, religion does not belong in politics.
Bush has poured billions of tax dollars into the Faith Based Initiative program which caters to the evangelical preachers. The GOP knows if you buy the souls of the leaders, the flock will follow. Amen.
Kem, you have got to be kidding! George Washington and Christopher Columbus compared to the so called "SON OF GOD"? There is undisputable and bullet proof documented evidence that George and Chistopher exsited. What do you have to support that load of crap? Let me guess, the Bible, right? Sorry, it's a fairy tale just like Bush's intelligence on WMD'S. Do you honestly believe the earth was created in less than a week five thousand years ago?
Christmas has it's roots in pagan holiday's of the time. It was usurped like all the other holiday's in the religious calender. Because ancient people did not want to entirely give up their pagan ways. So the early Christian father's simply adopted their own version of the holiday to entice people to follow them. So the Christmas that is celebrated round the world as a religious symbol has it's own tawdry beginnings. Personally, my family and I celebrate 'Winter Solstice'! Because all of us are growing weary of all the bigotry in Christmas and those self-righteous Christian's who celebrate it. I suspect most American's could care less about the religious significance of Christmas. Only a few religious fanatic's get upset over the secularism of the holiday.
What is it about Protestantism that leads it to produce the most hateful, violent and ignorant politicians in our history? Is there something deep in the "protestant ethic" that caters to greed, self-righteousness and sadism? Republican Protestant politicians support a capitalist system that literally thrives on a poverty-stricken underclass, while the rich live in excess luxury. Is this really in their bible? They support torture out of a paranoid fear of terror--which is really just blowback from all their bad foreign policies. And they support violence against women while couching it in some convoluted and hypocritical notion of "sanctity of life." Tell that to the Iraqis.
I think the Christian Republicans want to be left alone.
They don't want condemnation. They just vote for people, it's those other people that steal money.
They certainly don't want a Jeremiad. They get hellfire at church, and they don't believe liberals. When they want a Jeremiad they can read the book of Jeremiah, which was happily about a tiny kingdom long ago and far away.
They want prosperity. Who can blame them. They want the bad people elsewhere to suffer, because it seems just to them.
The very last thing they want is someone to preach to them that their world is crumbling right now, even if it is. Things are right in the world and they've got their own castles, well, the ones that didn't have staggering medical bills or lose their jobs and such.
No, there's something worse to hear. The very very last thing they want to hear is that they are responsible in any way. Sure, their preacher says they're responsible but he's supposed to say that. He doesn't mean it.
And then there's the unbearable thing to hear. Their Bible says that God told Jonah to get to work and he ran the other way, and it didn't work. The unbearable thing is a combination of "our world is falling apart, I'm really responsible and, and, -- God says, I can't sit still for much longer, and when God speaks, I've got a problem."
Personally I think God asks 100 people to do some real work, and 1 responds, usually the bottom of the barrel, the clown you would least likely see do anything.
neomunk sez...
"You're making progressives look like reactionaries while adding more imaginary fuel to the 'red vs blue' stupidity we have going on in this country."
Yep. That's one reason why I stopped coming here for a while. We wonder why so many working and poor people are left with bad tastes in their mouths They think liberals are all like some of the people posting here.
I'd love to see some of these Christianity basher walk into a church and tell all the people there that they're stupid and weak-minded. Would they tell Cornell West that? Would they have told MLK that?
Kem,
Sober as a judge (at least at the moment).
We obviously have a different understanding of the Christ.
Have you ever read any Marcus Borg or Dominic Crossan? If not, they will really get you scratching your head. Recommend Borg's "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time" as a place to start. Easy read and very theologically challenging. Judging by your responses, I think Borg will make you squirm a little, but I think you will like the Jesus you meet there.
As an introduction try:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPmPsTAMZKM
Peace, Mercy and Justice,
Bill
Yeah, those Muslim bastards are ruining everything for us right-thinking folk. WE KNOW the TRUTH, and everything they have ever done has turned sour in their incompetent hands. Nothing good has ever come out of.......
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was freerepublic... I walked into the wrong ignorant, prejudiced, uninformative, based-on-flawed-opinion three-minute hate again. Oops, silly me, it's the Christians who are universally evil here.
I'll try and keep my blind, raging prejudices sorted out next time.
-----end sarcasm-----
I'm a monotheist who believes that there may also be some polytheistic mechanic to the universe.
*shrugs* If you think I'm some kind of genocidal bloodthirsty monster then you're either new here or too dumb to offer any real contribution.
If you think I'm some kind of gullible moron who will fall for whatever the people 'above' me in social stature tell me, you're lying to yourself and falling for what someone 'above' you in social stature is telling you.
If you think that I've been told what to believe by my parents (or some other authority) and accept it uncritically, you could be forgiven (that actually -IS- a common trait of religious people) but would be incorrect. My faith is my own and only my own, based on observation and hypothesis. I've not been force fed anything.
If you think I'm just some stupid schmuck or crazy psychotic, then say so. Don't be offended though when I take it personally, ask for evidence of such outrageous and unfounded foolishness and finally make you look highly uninformed while proving your unwise assertation false.
Your arrogance exceeds that of the 'christian' right, and that my friends is impressive. Just because you're right about many things (and most of you are) doesn't make you infallible, and certainly doesn't put you in any position of superiority over me (and my fellow believers, but I can only speak for myself). The constant insinuation that I'm somehow more foolish than you, more gullible than you or just outright stupid PISSES ME OFF frankly. You're supposed to be the progressives, the thinkers, not the reactionary fools who don't bother with such petty things as 'understanding', 'empathy', and Science-forbid 'debate'.
Like iwarrior said earlier, stop it.
You're making progressives look like reactionaries while adding more imaginary fuel to the 'red vs blue' stupidity we have going on in this country.
"The Constitution purports freedom of religion–a PERSONAL choice to be shared with those of like mind or alone–NOT to be used as a credential to a politician's "goodness" or "grace". Puh-leeze!"
Celebrity, you hit the nail on the head! The republicans obviously are using Christianity as a tool for gathering votes (Karl Rove and Dumbya were overheard in the oval office by a reporter mocking evangelicals.) There are a lot of conservative evangelical Christians in this country, especially in the southern Bible Belt which stretches from Texas to Florida, meaning a lot of potential votes. The evalgelicals will blindly vote for most any candidate who present themself as an evangelical Christian. Further, once the candidate claiming to be an evangelical is elected, many of these same people claiming to be devout followers of Christ will follow the elected official and support their actions and policies, no matter how amoral those actions may be. There is a name for these folks...Right Wing Authoritarians. They are the followers aka sheeple. There is a good online book (free) by Robert Altemeyer (John Dean used much of his infomation in his book "Conservatives Without a Conscience" entitled "The Authoritarians" which describes the reasoning behind the thoughts of these folks. Very interesting indeed!
Personally, I have no quarrel with true followers of Christ. They would be those who keep their beliefs to themselves and truly care for others. In other words they try to be like Christ in their behavior. Unfortunately, the Christian Right, those who incorporate religion with government care about themselves, not the general public.
Oh. one more thing...the GOP doesn't stand for "The Grand Old Party", but rather "Greedy Old Pigs."
If the above link to the online book "The Authoritarians" doesn't work the link is : http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey.
Billy are you sober? You always make good sense, except for nuclear power issues. Today you are writing nonsense. Jesus was God's only son, he came here to explain to us how to prevent going to hell.
He was not a politician, the "Phar-as-ees" claimed that. How the hell did we get into this discussion anyway?
Religion has no place in politics and Bush has made it otherwise, and He don't take the word of God, unless Rove and Cheney are gods.
Further, Huckster beeeee is a water front pimp who thumps a Bible and sounds good to the ignorant.
Kem,
When Jesus says "Your sins are forgiven" it was very confrontational to the religious establishment. Sins could only be forgiven through a sin offering in the Temple.
Today, we see this statement as pastoral, not political, but in his society, it was just as political and confrontational as saying "Don't pay taxes for a war you don't believe in."
Granted, Jesus was a man. If we have God manifest on earth again, why not as a woman?
God may be giving Bush advice, but we all know he is not a very good listener.
Regards,
Bill
More blood has been spilled in the name of god then all other reasons combined! How can so many seemingly rational people still buy in to that intelligent design crap? If you need to believe in some fairy tale to feel all warm and fuzzy inside, fine. And if you need to ignore reality and choose to buy into some bull about the earth being created in a week five thousand years ago, so be it. But please don't elect onther so called GOD FEARING fool as my president! I need a leader who will listen and is willing to do the people's work, not that of his imaginary friend!
goper's are the no clueer's.
CHRISTMAS OBSERVANCES 2007
A child was born and they named him Jesus; he was born from a virgin mother. Why? To show the world what could be done by mankind and had been done before. Don't believe? Hey, truth is truth whether we believe or not. We are all sons and daughters of the one God but, I believe, that he was born this way to show that he was a son that had advanced to a level to where he could do this. Mother Mary was in on the deal too but maybe, just maybe, she was not quite as advanced as he.
When did he become the Christ? No Christ no Christmas just some, maybe, pagan holiday. My thoughts? He started as child of 12 when he started at the temple in Jerusalem when he said "he had to be about his fathers business", then from around that time until he is 30 or so, I don't know exactly when, he gets baptized by John, as a symbolic gesture and then starts his ministry. The time from 12 to 30 he traveled to, at least, India, Persia, Tibet and maybe some other places. There are rumors that he might have visited the Americas; nothing concrete. Most would say he went to strictly learn but I think that he went to prove to other faiths and peoples that he was this exalted soul out to do the One God's business for all of humanity.
Words, ah, the words of the Christ used by so many, the good, the bad, the I have no clue's and so many use the words without the deeds and so make the words like so many empty vessels. To show just one example: When he said that the poor would always be with us and some people and governments think that, hey, he said it so should it be. What is wrong with this picture? Should we not take this as a slap in the face of all humankind that we have no clue on what and how things are supposed to be? This is just a recent thought of mine and it bears repeating that words without deeds is emptiness.
We get many chances to do what's right by enlightenment by light bulb or reincarnation and that is what he meant when he said we must be born again and when he said that only through him would we be good enough. That is the ultimate goal: to be like him and that is what he meant. Now I come to the finish of this Christmas observances. I'm not even close and all I want for Christmas is the courage and will to do what is right and just.
With love and best wishes for a Merry Christmas, Sandy and Tony 12/22/07
Bill, ha ha ha... that's great...
only how can you put Corrie ten Boom and Hitler in the same sentence? she was a devout lady with unbelievable strength of character and faith... while Hitler was a homicidal maniac/delusions of grandeur... like someone else we all know... psycos stick together...
yes, the god that the GOP worships, which god is that, Jesus said something like many will come in my name... but they ain't all real and we would know real Christians by their fruits... love, kindness, peace... no one in the GOP qualifies ...
I see my speling is up to it's usual standards.
BTW how is God's only son a she Billy?
No Billy, the rulers and the priests of that time construed Jesus as political. He was not a politician, he was a healer, a teacher and the spokesman for humanity to become decent. King Herrod found no fault with him.
His words,"Render unto Ceasear what is Ceasears', render unto God what is Gods'."
Anyway, he or God ain't giving Bush advice.
Proaltenergy,
If Jesus were to try to vote in this country today, she would probably not be able to because of her prison record.
Rather than an electon booth, you would more likely see him leading an antiwar demonstration or a gay rights protest or a hispanic voter drive.
Kloro,
Unfortunately, much of what you say is true. Ever since Constantine made Christianity the imperial religion, it has been abused and subverted from Jesus's teachings and practices by Power.
Hitler was a professing Christian, so were Dietrich Bohnhoffer and Corrie ten Boom.
Regards,
Bill
Based on recent events, it would appear Christians also believe insurance co profits are more important than the health of all children, and that overt class warfare is very Jesus-like, and that the collateral murder of a million or so innocent Iraqis was what God was talking about when he stopped by the White House for a chit chat with our Loonitary Decider.
And isn't there something about not worshiping false idols with white beards wearing a silly red outfit?
stuuupid humans
And if you look even closer at history, you'll find bloodthirsty tyrants in all religions and cultures.
I haven't known any Christian that was a bloodthirsty tyrant. Just as I have I never known a Jew who was money-grubbing or a Muslim who wanted to behead me if I didn't convert.
Stop it.
if you look at history you will see that christians have been, almost from their very beginning, bloodthirsty tyrants. nothing's changed.
I'd like to think Jesus would waltz into the White House ala Roddy Piper in "They Live," chewin' bubblegum and kickin' ass.
jesus would vote for al gore
Kem,
I agree that Jesus would not fit comfortably in either Republican or Democratic rhetoric. He was, however, profoundly political. He was arrested and executed for political theatre.
What Christians call the Palm Sunday entry into Jerusalem was an anti-imperial demonstration proclaiming Israel to be under God's kingship rather than Caesar's. It was an intentional provocation of the Roman authorities. It was as revolutionary as anything Karl Marx ever wrote or said, albeit non-violent.
What Christians call the cleansing of the temple was another demonstration, this time against the concentration of wealth in the religious and political leadership (90% of the wealth in the hands of 10% of the people-sound familiar?). In his contemporary agrarian economy, wealth was created by peasant farmers but, through taxation/tithe, the wealth flowed to Jerusalem.
Were Jesus to be involved in US politics today, I would assume he would be a socialist and would revel in the New England style of direct participatory democracy.
Regards,
Bill
I like that who would Jesus vote for.... who would Jesus torture? who would Jesus kill? who would Jesus lie to? who would Jesus bomb? who would Jesus make poor? who would Jesus steal from?????
Jesus must be rolling over in his grave at the GOP and its minions....
http://geocities.com/vonchloride/
http://infowars.com/videos.html#bg
Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple. But under the republicans, the money changers now run the temple.
God's Own Party? The Neo-Cons only worship gold and an ancient tribal war god. Both our Republicans and Christians have been infected with this Neo-Con virus. Greed is one of the Deadly Sins because pigs must be killed to be cured.
Luckylefty-are you a troll?
It's almost funny anymore. You're a gross cariciature of a liberal.
"That's why white Americans love it so much. Dignified god-fearing citizen on top, blood drinking psychotic child raper underneath -"
Ok, isn't that what the right-wingers basically think of Muslims? How is your obvious hatred and contempt better than theirs? I mean, they try to justify it also. You can justify hatred towards any group if you only look at the underbelly.
Nannie-I've been saying that. But too many people just want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
As far as the GOP (I hate that term. What the hell is so 'grand' about them?) goes, I think most of the ones thumping their Bibles are just pandering in order to get votes. They use Christianity as a tool. I don't for a minute believe that those bastards are truly devout.
You can paint all Christians as wild-eyed beasts all you want to. Just bear in mind that people on the Right do the same to Muslims. It's all wrong. But unfortunately, it seems anymore that people define their politics by who and what they hate, not in terms of how best to solve the world's problems.
But such is the subculture of the Left. It's all about who you hate I guess. Who do you wanna piss of? Who's sensibilities must we pour acid on? Most other people don't seem to want to play the game, and then we wonder why the masses are generally disinterested in politics, despite the fact that most (whether we will acknowledge it or nor) hold progressive views.
They don't think it matters. I mean, whether you look leftward or rightward, there's always someone who holds contempt and disdain for who and what you are. They get pushed to one side and screwed by the other. And God Forbid they stand in the middle. WHAM!!!! Look out for that truck.
This has always been a genocidal Aryan Xrstian slave empire with human blood dripping from its maw - just ask Black people or any Indigenous human. Xrstianity is the the religion of the Slave Master. Xrstianity is the religion of Genocide. Always. Plastic Jesus is a "beard", a cover for the psychotic blood drinking theology that lies just below a candy-covered surface. That's why white Americans love it so much. Dignified god-fearing citizen on top, blood drinking psychotic child raper underneath - our Pillars of Society. Go watch Peter O'Toole's "Ruling Class" again.
Totally fitting that the GOP would worship a re-tread flat-earth genocidal blood god stolen from a genocidal ME tribe of flat-earth killer nomads called the Habiru. Dems in this like other areas just want to play "me too, me more, me better".
Much mo betta, Xrstianity and all the rest of the Religions of the Book should drop into a vast chasm and disappear from human life forever, soonest.
Pieces of 8.
Jesus was not a Republican, or a Democrat, or a anything political. He was born in August or September. But it don't snow in those months and 'Christmas' need lots of snow and cold weather, so people will purchase warm coats, gloves, funny looking hats and sweaters for gifts.
I often wonder about these Christian Republicans. This party is responsible for so much hatred and destruction in the world. It is the shield that the most astute criminals in the world hide behind (that and the flag). The Republicans have turned politics into an act of faith. It is truly a political party for the very stupid. No thinking is required, in fact, it is frowned upon. Truly the antitheses of the definition of "liberal." Sad. And there are so many of these dark followers in power under the guise of Christianity that I often wonder how many Republicans actually believe in the sheer ugliness, meanness and hatred that being a Republican represents in todays world to anybody with a mind and everybody outside of the U.S. It's just very sad about the Christian religion because Jesus' words held power, were brave and good beyond measure and equally difficult to follow no matter which political party you belong to. These "Christians" have connected their religion to their pockets and a vast majority of Republicans do not realize it, I think. They just get their philosophy pills in the words of the snake oil salesmen of the day: Limbaugh, Hannity and their ilk. I truly think that Jesus would be ashamed of these Republicans if HIs return happened today. According to their own religion, Christians should be very wary of this demon that has seduced it. Sad.
Which Republican fascist pro-torture Constitution trampling war profiteering criminal would Jesus vote for?
.Keep the Government out of Religion
And...
Keep Religion OUT OF Government!!!!
.
Harold Meyerson: "As Christians across the world prepare to celebrate the birth of Jesus..." (AND spend money they don't have to express "love" one day out of the year on a Pagan holiday when love can be free ALL the time...)
Jared Prole: If only...
Separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State.
Separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State.
"Religion" has ABSOLUTELY NO BIZNESS in ANYTHING politic! NONE! PERIOD! My bullshit detector goes to the extreme reading when a politician even broaches the subject. The Constitution purports freedom of religion--a PERSONAL choice to be shared with those of like mind or alone--NOT to be used as a credential to a politician's "goodness" or "grace". Puh-leeze!
Well if the GOP is God's own party I guess that makes the DNC the Devil's Nurtured Company.
For those not used to using their imagination, it may be hard to see the democrats as fetid and hypocritcal as republicans. But the corporate whores all share the same lap. There will be no change prior to their mass extermination. How that happens will require your imagination.
God is dead. Let the GOP follow suit.
To all the Ron Paul enthusiasts that had the audacity to compare him to Dennis Kucinich. Have you read the latest?
Ron Paul doesn't believe in evolution. "I think it's a theory—theory of evolution—and I don't accept it."
Now that he's revealed himself to be a creationist, I wonder how many of those enthusiasts are eating crow?
"Paul hasn't been hiding his religious convictions. He wrote back in 2003 that the "secular Left" has been waging a war on religion and Christmas and that "[t]he notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers."'
Watch the video on Truthdig.
So, I guess you're all going to have to come over to Kucinich now that Paul has revealed himself to be part of the Christian Taliban.
There was a great article here on Common Dreams on Dec. 16, 2004 entitled Jesus & Alinksy, which builds an excellent case for Jesus as a political persona. NOT as a politician, but as political...I recommend it. ...It broadened my perspective and gave great food for thought...
Neomonk, I understand your anger at the condemnation of believers in some of the above posts. I am NOT trying to condemn Christians because they are Christians and that was not the intent of my post, rather I am condemning those who call themselves Christians; those who force their beliefs down the throats of everyone they come in contact with and hate anyone who believes different than they do. I am a believer in the teachings of Christ myself, however, I live in the heart of the Bible Belt and there are a lot of folks around who are exactly like those that I just described. These people (unfortunately the majority of those who call themselves Christians, at least around here) support absolutely everything the Bu$h Administration does, including torture and the illegal invasion of Iraq. I don't consider that to be terribly Christ like and see these people as mindless followers of Bu$h simply because he calls himself a Christian. These are the type of people described in Bob Altemeyer's book as Right Wing Authoritarians. If my previous post offended you, please accept my apology. My intent was not to "bash" Christians!
Merry Christmas to all!!!
kelmer___your idea, DNC=Devils Nurtured Company Good
How about DNC=Devils Neutered Clowns
proaltenergy___Jesus has not been in his grave for 2000 years so will not be rolling over in it. However, if he is witnessing our fiasco in this country using his name, you are correct, he is thinking THE HELL WITH THOSE PROPLE. Jesus did not mince words about the hyocrite scribes and pharisees and we have a nice new crop of them now.
satr9prodxns said Jesus would vote for Al Gore...
Not if the Lieberman had been Gore's running mate. Jesus knew a Pharasee when he saw one. Jesus would have voted for Ralph Nader.
Could someone tell me how an "evangelical" is different from a non-evangelical Christian?
Is one better than the other?
Thank You.
I sense a Rovian linguistic cesspool/void w/ olfactory echoes of "Neo-Con" & "Al Queda In Mesopatamia" ringing.
More WMD, Words of Mass Distraction.