US War Vets to Speak Publicly About War Crimes
SAN FRANCISCO — U.S. war veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have announced they’re planning to descend on Washington, DC this March to testify about war crimes they committed or personally witnessed in Iraq.
“The war in Iraq is not covered to its potential because of how dangerous it is for reporters to cover it,” said Liam Madden, a former Marine and member of the group Iraq Veterans Against the War. “That’s left a lot of misconceptions in the minds of the American public about what the true nature of military occupation looks like.”
Iraq Veterans Against the War argues that well-publicized incidents of American brutality like the Abu Ghraib prison scandal and the massacre of an entire family of Iraqis in the town of Haditha are not the isolated incidents perpetrated by “a few bad apples,” as many politicians and military leaders have claimed. They are part of a pattern, the group says, of “an increasingly bloody occupation.”
“This is our generation getting to tell history,” Madden told OneWorld, “to ensure that the actual history gets told — that it’s not a sugar-coated, diluted version of what actually happened.”
Iraq Veterans Against the War is calling the gathering a “Winter Soldier,” named after a similar event organized by Vietnam veterans in 1971.
In 1971, over 100 members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War gathered in Detroit to share their stories with America. Atrocities like the My Lai massacre had ignited popular opposition to the war, but political and military leaders insisted that such crimes were isolated exceptions.
“Initially even the My Lai massacre was denied,” notes Gerald Nicosia, whose book Home to War provides the most exhaustive history of the Vietnam veterans’ movement.
“The U.S. military has traditionally denied these accusations based on the fact that ‘this is a crazy soldier’ or ‘this is a malcontent’ — that you can’t trust this person. And that is the reason that Vietnam Veterans Against the War did this unified presentation in Detriot in 1971.
“They brought together their bonafides and wore their medals and showed it was more than one or two or three malcontents. It was medal-winning, honored soldiers — veterans in a group verifying what each other said to try to convince people that these charges cannot be denied. That people are doing these things as a matter of policy.”
Nicosia says the 1971 “Winter Soldier” was roundly ignored by the mainstream media, but that it made an indelible imprint on those who were there.
Among those in attendance was 27-year-old Navy Lieutenant John Kerry, who had served on a Swift Boat in Vietnam. Three months after the hearings, Nicosia notes, Kerry took his case to Congress and spoke before a jammed Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Television cameras lined the walls, and veterans packed the seats.
“Many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia,” Kerry told the Committee, describing the events of the “Winter Soldier” gathering.
“It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit — the emotions in the room, and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.”
In one of the most famous antiwar speeches of the era, Kerry concluded: “Someone has to die so that President Nixon won’t be — and these are his words — ‘the first President to lose a war’. We are asking Americans to think about that, because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?”
Nicosia says Americans and veterans find themselves in a similar situation today.
“The majority of the American people are very dissatisfied with the Iraq war now and would be happy to get out of it. But Americans are bred deep into their psyches to think of America as a good country and, I think, much harder than just the hurdle of getting troops out of Iraq, is to get Americans to realize the terrible things we do in the name of the United States.”
© 2007 One World.net
“They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one’s country. But in modern war there is nothing sweet or fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.”
Ernest Hemingway
If this event is allowed to happen in Washiington DC in March, it will be the most important event for Peace since Viet Nam.
These are the troops who need our support.
Here’s my question to Liam Madden and Iraq Veterans against the war:
What is so magic about MARCH?? Why on Earth would you wait until March 2008 to share this information with the world and the Congress?!
Hearings should be scheduled on this matter IMMEDIATELY! Especially with the U.S./Israel potentially preparing for a military conflagration in the Middle East!
Holidays or no holidays, NOW is the time to go to Washington, D.C. and testify. NOT in March. War crimes don’t take or deserve holidays.
Why the hell wait till March to march?
March will be too late..Iran will have been invaded and it’s likely we’ll be under martial law. DO IT NOW!
Agreed. Don’t wait until March.
These are the troops that I support! Thank you IVAW for speaking out, I know it’s not easy.
March? How about TODAY! Oh,Christmas shopping maybe, then New Years, then the superbowl. Don’t want to screw up anthing important.
This is it. This is important.
Nothing was more effective in ending the Vietnam war than the “Winter Soldier Investigation”.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation.
Also the words of Thomas Paine from 1776 when he talks about the winter soldiers and the sunshine patriots. The winter soldiers are couageous enough to face the full challenge and speak the truth.
And John Kerry’s statement from 1971- http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html
Finally the song Camelle by Graham Nash (Wild Tales CD), about the Winter Soldier Investigation and the movie on DVD - http://www.wintersoldierfilm.com/
This is the beginning of dealing straight with the pain.
1) I echo Jim Glover’s comments, and to the sisters and brothers who have had to serve in Iraq and other murderous US imperial ventures: Welcome Home.
2) To all who would chastize these courageous folks for not organizing the March event more quickly, you need to take a hard look at the logistics of organizing anything in DC, or any other national event anywhere.
Organizing is alot more than “announce it on the web and they will come.” Here’s just one small item: how do you get the folks there when they are all working like dogs to survive in an era of $3/gallon fuel and little effective public transportation?
Let’s be real people, and not castigate the vets who have had to serve in hell and now are acting courageously (against the instincts of the vast majority of their fellow countrywomen and men)to describe exactly what that hell — which we have created as a nation — is like.
“They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one’s country. But in modern war there is nothing sweet or fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.”
Ernest Hemingway
Yet it was a lie in the old days and it’s a lie repeated to this day. As it always has been it’s the old who ask the young to die for the ‘honor’ of the old.
The young soldiers who speak out will be villified by the rich, uhhh right wing, yet they have already been to hell.
I say do it now.
It should be plan to some that this government, the USA administration, Congress, and the legal sytem, a.k.a lawyers, don’t listen to the people. The ruling elite and their representatives are going to stay in Iraq, spend money, and continue to commit war crimes for as lone as they like.
We have zero influence on those events, but we pay the bills.
We are suckers.
War and Peace is in the balance regarding who gets the next Presidency- most decisions will conclude in February not in March:
In the Primaries everybody who is a registered Democrat- VOTE in January or February
Vote for Obama not for Hillary and don’t waste your vote on Dennis Kucinich- no matter how smart he is.– he is too far away to win.
Hillary is not only endorsing anything Israel wants which is often the wrong stuff but she is loosing against Romney, Giuliani or McCain according to the latest Zogby poll done mid November. Obama is winning against all Republican choices because a lot of Republicans will vote for Obama but not for Hillary.
All the republicans have been talking about more bombing, more Guantanamo, more death penalty and detaining illegals not to mension that 3 of the candidates do not believe in evolution so how will they deal with global warming? Denie it ? The Supreme Court will be ruined when they make the next 3 appointments.
Ron Paul might run as Independent after being snubbed by the Republicans, then he will be a strong third party especially since he collected millions of dollars. ( I wonder who gave that money?) and the Republicans will win because Ron Paul will split the Democratic candidate whoever it is while nobldy can hardly split the republican vote.
I have nothing against either Dennis or Ron Paul but I want and electable candidate who can beat a Republican- that is Obama - first multiracial President, Harvard Law school who did not become a trial lawyer but successful comunity organizing in Chicago.
I agree with tj that organizing an event such as this takes considerable time, money, lots of planning to maximize its media exposure, and additional planning for legal representation for those who will be attacked for doing this or to counter the efforts of those who will try to silence the group. Something constructive that we could do to help them get the word out would be to send donations to their organization earmarked for the March event.
The important thing is that these young patriots are willing to state publicly what is actually taking place in our names. Of course the sooner the better but meanwhile we need to do all we can do to support these brave veterans. They need to know that the people are behind them and want the truth to be put on the table. If we listen to these guys maybe we can avoid a future situation where our soldiers die killing for the rich.
Hoa binh
“But Americans are bred deep into their psyches to think of America as a good country and, I think, much harder than just the hurdle of getting troops out of Iraq, is to get Americans to realize the terrible things we do in the name of the United States.”
They are brave and honorable men to recognise this and say it aloud. True heroes. I admire and respect them.
I case y’all did not know, you need a PERMIT to march in DC (and other cities as well - this is called “freedom”, folks). To apply for the permit, you need to provide size of march, purpose, and route. Depending on your application, the permit can be hard or easy.
Pro-life, 10,000 people, White House = easy.
Anti-war, 1,000 people, 3 blocks from Congress = hard.
I’m betting getting a permit for “Winter Soldier” will be damned hard.
WTF—-thanks for that info and perspective—our impatience gets the best of us. I am grateful to these young folks for their courage and commitemnt to Truth and Justice. No doubt the will have a few obstacles to overcome, getting a permit—if denied, they should call a press conference and tell the American people directly why some Vets can’t march, as well as the truth of the occupation.
Metamorph - That is exactly what will continue business as usual inD.C.. Obama has outright said he will support the military, and I would bet he will be similar to Bill Clinton who laid the tax treasury at the feet of the war-monger bullies know as ‘The Pentagon’ - including the Defense Board, as most Presidents have. Not all military brass are included in this indictment, of course, but the imperialist Pentagonians scream murder if congress so much as suggests to cut the increase in their takings of our treasury - NEVER an actual ‘cut.’ God forbid - with over 1,500 or so oversea bases (nobody even apparently knows exactly how many); $7 TRILLION in ‘unaccounted for’ spent monies from 1995-1999 (I have the IRS audit article), etc. No, only Kucinich dares to take on the GRUNCH of Giants (Gross Universal Cash Heist) that Buckminster Fuller (and Eisenhower) warned us about. I say vote Kuncinich - there IS no other meaningful vote (except for Nader). If progressives would just do it - we can change the direction of this country. By the way, Nader found that only 38% of his ‘taken’ votes were from Dems - that is a big lie that he ’stole’ so many votes. Gore lost it, as did Kerry because they wimped out on us. the Dems are total wimps and worse with all the crap they have been up to. Anyone with a conscious should be ashamed to leave Kucinich hanging in the wind. He seems to be the only one with enough guts to do something.
Nevermind a big rally.
These veterans need to testify on these matters ASAP. Otherwise it dilutes the seriousness of the issue.
We are talking WAR CRIMES people.
I think it’s a wonderful idea to plan another “march”. (I hope this one is mid-week instead of a Saturday when D.C.’s a ghost town).
We dare not fiddle while Rome burns.
We must put the fire out. Now.
Exactly termite.
First we send money to IVAW (http://www.ivaw.org/wintersoldier), and second we figure out how we can get ourselves to DC to support the vets and organize others to do the same.
Man, by the looks of it, it’s going to be one hell of a Springtime for Bush and America.
Meanwhile keep these wars in the faces of the Christmas shoppers. Sometimes our local peace stand is only 2 people, but it reminds everyone.
I will no longer vote for the lesser of 2 evils. It is Kucinich or no one.
Whenever these soldiers can testify, I am with them. A very brave thing to do.
Hi Commentarian,
Do you have the site to the article you mentioned re the $7 trillion in unaccounted for goverment money between 1995-99? A lot of us could put that info to good use. Thanks for whatever you can provide us.
I am known to condemn our troops on this blog. But THESE TROOPS ARE MY HEROES!
Wintersoldier II, I love it. If you have not seen Wintersoldier please take the time to learn about it… one of the most captivating people in that film was Scott Camil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Camil
Who is still very politically active and does talks about his experience in Vietnam and in Wintersoldier. Check out this YouTube clip… http://youtube.com/watch?v=CH9jAMuj2Js
You can purchase the film at http://store01.prostores.com/servlet/milliariumzero/Detail?no=1 or on Amazon.com
There is an excellent documentary produced about the life of Scott Camil as a DVD extra along with a ton of extras… I encourage everybody to buy it and support the Millerium Zero who makes a lot of sacrifices in getting films like this out to the public. It will also give you a perspective to the upcoming testimony… these type of events should be sponsored in every state!
Does it have to be Washington D.C.????
How about another good sized city willing to host the gathering, auditoriums, hotels, etc.?
Bless the Liam’s of the world who not only have the balls to go fight a battle, but equally as brave to expose the lies associated with this war of occupation.
Four months is to long to wait,four weeks is to long. Next week is good it will still be 2007. Once the Madhatter starts bombing Iran and martial law goes into effect their will be no hearings of any kind. Let’s try to get the hearings started this year.
do it now
The weekend closest to 3/19 (the date we started bombing Iraq so many years ago) has been the nexus for organizing annual ‘anniversary’ anti-war demos in DC since the get-go of this fiasco.
Please don’t dis the IVAW for going with the flow of organizing that got started LAST march. Just join them there - or bring a friend to an anniversary demo being organized near your home.
There are big rallies in LA, SF, Seattle, as well as small but important ones near military bases (the demo in Fayetteville NC is always a good place to be).
This year, bring friends who’ve sympathized with your peace activism all along, but never been fed up enough to make the trip.
Bringing a church group…
Peach McD in Durham NC
ok I gave money to Dennis Kucinich and I remain grateful for his ideas- BUT I am now active with Obama because i need to work on someone who is a peace candidate who will WIN. Obama is logical and honest in that sense and comes across as trustworthy - pick the right one and avoid war war war.
I like it that Obama does not play the “terror card” with the public- we need to win hearts and minds. Obama will be popular in the world- I do not see Dennis winning - he only has 4% and Obama is beating Hillary in Iowa right now. He is also electable and Hillary is possibly not electable- let alone endorse the Iranian military forces designated as terrorists.
To Metamorph:
FYI, Sen. Obama sits on the Senate Homeland Security Committee (chaired by Lieberman!!), which is about to vote on SB 1959, “The Homegrown Terrorism Act”.
I’ve spent several days on the phone with his staffer trying to see whether or not he will stop campaigning long enough to debate what should actually be called “The Stifling of Dissent in 2007 Act” and I can’t get a straight answer.
At least Dennis Kucinich had the guts and courage of his convictions to be one of only 6 against 404 in the vote on the bill in the House.
I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that Obama never shows up to debate the bill and votes FOR it, as will Clinton, Biden and Dodd. Cowards all.
BTW, if you’re interested, tomorrow night at 7:30pm EST there will be a debate in Iowa with all eight of the Democrats, including Gravel and Kucinich streaming online at HDnet, hosted by Dan Rather.
Good luck with “All options are on the table with Iran” Obama.
And speaking of Iran, here’s a great interview I just read with Scott Ritter regarding his thoughts on the subject:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18809.htm
I don’t know about anyone else but this just makes me want to cry. I don’t know about anyone else but the evidence of war crimes has been plastered all over the internet in the last 5 years. Here is one example http://robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm . There have been plenty of video’s on Youtube and NOT a damn thing has been done about any of it. But try not paying your excise tax and see what happens.
I am sorry to say but does anyone truly think these confessions will make a difference at the White House and Congress? Those that still support this war will call these soldiers traitors and liars as they have in the past. Democrats were elected in 2006 to bring the soldiers home and as we all are aware that hasn’t happened. Nothing is going to be done about it until at least the next election and that is also questionable considering the candidates. Soldiers will have to continue to do their immoral duty and if they live their souls will be scared for life. This country is over there for the money and that is all that counts.
Life is valueless unless it serves to produce wealth for the wealthy. Those responsible for this death and destruction are seriously deranged. The more the deranged are pressured the more harm they will do. We have seen it this year with the surge.
It makes me want to vomit but releasing guilt is about all these soldiers will accomplish. Some may even get tazed in the process. This country has gone to hell.
We are ALL suffering, through NAOMI’s idea of SHOCK, which is much
the same as those facing a diagnosis of CANCER, who are consumed by
DARK FEAR, and hug the pillows of their bed alone in a vain attempt to
kind solace and comfort - but the bed only provides a place for sleep.
This is the recommendation from the SHOCK DOC, to live our lives even larger and dream imaginary possibilities, that may very well appear penultimately as miracles and our salvation
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is enough to meet everybody’s need, but there is not enough to meet everybody’s greed »
You are correct abbybwood, they are all fascists and war mongers and those of us that feel discord by their actions will be considered terrorists.
May God forgive us…
For we are aware of what we do…
the Japanese principle of Lukatmi states that as long as others keep dieing in your place you will have a long and prosperous life. And it is true.
Obama? Good god, please no.
Mike Gravel spoke here in NH a few days ago. When asked who is the scariest Democrat candidate, he ranked Obama above Hillary. I was surprised at first, but his explanation makes very good sense:
People perceive Obama as some harbinger of hope and change, which is all just empty rhetoric. At least with Clinton you know what you’re getting. Mediocre, pandering, centrism. But people think Obama will be some type of revolutionary savior. He would LET EVERYONE DOWN, and all the people that got excited about politics (particularly a young generation) will be that much more jaded.
Barack Obama: HYPE SINKS
GRAVEL… and Kucinich, and Paul (in some capacities) will tell it like it is. THAT matters more than most anything else.
If the Winter Soldiers are planning to testify in March, it must be that there is a congressional committee scheduled to hear them. They also need lead time of several months to gather significant numbers from around the nation. People need to raise funds for the travel expenses; schedule reservations or alternative volunteer housing early and possibly schedule time off from work.
White Corporate AmeriKKKa the real terrorists
With this Winter Soldier II, we will see still more American citizens who have done more for their country than W ever could or would.
I agree with the sentiments posted above: speaking out in March 2008 will be too late. The veterans should have spoken up earlier.
May God forgive us…
For we are aware of what we do…
I don’t know about you but I didn’t vote for Bush. I am not personally causing anyone any harm. The only other way a person can personally contribute to war crime is by supporting it financially with income taxes. I supposed if we didn’t pay income taxes they would find another way of getting it from us.
Something should have been done about 9/11. It is next near to impossible for three buildings to go down the way they did. The third building didn’t even get hit by a plane. It is absolutely nuts.
There were so many warning signs even before the invasion. Children dying by the thousands for sanctions against their country because of Saddam? Those innocent children needed to die as a result of the actions of their leader? 13 years of sanctions? Then Downing Street, misinformation from intelligence, Congress not reading the facts before they committed this country to war, UN, secret renditions, torture, people jailed with no charges, wiretapping without a warrant, using weapons of destruction against the Geneva Conventions. I have watched videos of soldiers just picking off people. Look at what was done in Falluja. Ambulances hit by soldiers, hospitals destroyed, schools. Then there is Black Water. Millions of dollars stolen. I mean the list goes on and on and on. There is absolutely no surprise that war crimes have been committed and I don’t see what difference it will make when soldiers tell us what we already know. The president can do all this because he is the president of the United States?????????????? As far as I concerned this country has gone totally insane.
nspire, I see your point but what about those people in Iraq? How can they possibly do the same thing when most of them don’t even have a home to go to? What is happening to my sister in Iraq is happening to us all. We are truly all one.
Did I miss something here? Do they plan a protest march in DC, or are they going to have a hearing with Congress, or a press conference? I didn’t think it was a protest march where they’d require a permet.
To Urthsong:
If American Veterans from the War in Iraq cannot get a hearing in Congress until MARCH of 2008 in order to testify about COMMITTED WAR CRIMES then we have a serious f’ing problem!
If I were working with them and the Congress wouldn’t hear us until March of 2008 (which is basically a “F You”), I’d have a press conference with them at the Press Club in WDC pronto.
There are plenty of people with deep pockets who would provide these veterans with funds for airfare, hotels, food and even to pay for the logistical matters. Come on. One well-placed phone call just about anywhere in Hollywood would get them the money!
Here’s a suggestion just off the top of my head. All the actors are listed with the Screen Actors Guild in Beverly Hills, along with an agent contact, publicist, manager etc. Make a list of the usual suspects: Sean Penn etc. Call their agents and take it from there. Do you know how many actors Sean Penn can call in a day to raise $$??? Hello!
Here’s another idea just off the top of my head. Contact Michael Moore. Not only would he write a check for the Veterans, he’d come film the whole thing!
And one more comment. Rather than “announce” a demonstration and another march, I feel due to the urgency of this that a press conference held NOW, certainly within the next ten days, would create the necessary buzz needed to get people motivated to join a demonstration!!!
Think about it.
Here’s another contact for you: Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon. They are in NYC. How many actors do you suppose they know? Bill Maher!!! He would not only support this but he’d have the spokesman on his show!
If you guys need a good publicist, let me know.
Good Hemingway quote, Ezeflyer.
There’s also this anonymous quote: “The day the old men who order young men into combat die first, will be the same day war is suddenly discovered to be unnecessary to solve our differences.”
As far as the march in March: Good on these guys for being willing to speak the truth, but these are different times than when the Winter Soldier conference took place in 1971. While the print media of the day nearly ignored it, I recall Dick Cavett and others on TV welcoming the marchers for interviews, including John Kerry, and coverage by all three broadcast networks.
There was a large peace march in Washington last October and CNN casually dismissed it by claiming (with an accompanying ‘close in’ camera shot) that there were only between a thousand and two thousand demonstrators, no big deal. No interviews or other commentary. Meanwhile, aerial photographs of the event showed at least 200,000 at the march, but most people never knew it happened.
Sadly, the MSM will probably ignore or dismiss this event as well. Thank God Olbermann will cover it.
It is about time that the media stop sweaping these stories under the carpet. At times the truth can be mighty unpleasant, right?
These are the troops that I support, but more importantly how about “WE THE WINTER PEOPLE” stop working in the month of March…yes folks, a month long strike, shutting this corrupt, diabolical, evil, .unscrupulous government down. And the men in women in the military can walk off the job too, rather than supporting a dictatorial group of fascist imperialists in their never-ending thirst for more money and power.
There is plenty of time to think about it. It’s just another man’s opinionon a course of action.
Peace and Harmony to everybody in the world.
The ANGRY VEGETARIAN
ABBYWOOD, that is a truly great post.
MA_Matriarch — My heart is overfilled with grief of those millions at death’s door (and rung through it) while we (as you mention), know that what is “happening to my sister in Iraq is happening to us all. We are truly all _ O N E _“, and through that belief, faith and hope - perhaps our knowledge and survival may unfold.
The above was cross-posted, and DREAMER TOO has provided here a wonderfully simple (and more powerfully vested) solution for dissolving our _ F E A R _.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is enough to meet everybody’s need, but there is not enough to meet everybody’s greed »
abbybwood, there is no and’s if’s nor’s or or’s there is a very serious problem. War crime isn’t a priority. Now why would that be?
Reading the above post and commentaries, I am reminded of the JFK assassination. Jack Ruby refused to talk unless he was removed from Texas. This went on for years, Then Dorothy Kilgallen arranged an interview with him. She spent several hours with him, then returned to New York, where she told some friends that she was going to blow the lid off the Kennedy assassination. Then, that night, for some reason, she OD’d on drugs and died. Silly woman…
If you know the truth, get it out there now. Tomorrow may be too late.
libertas fugit; HOW TRUE!
Thank you Iibertas, I never knew that about her until now. Maybe the Pelican Brief was based on fact.
All credit to the Iraq Veterans Against the War for their courageous stand. All credit to those, like myself, who will attempt to support them with demonstrations. To be silent is to be dead. But doesn’t anyone get the sense of a monotonous cycle, going through the same old process again and again, gross revelations, hearings, reports, demonstrations of outrage, and, by golly, the decay, the corruption just continues. Nice touch mentioning John Kerry, winter soldier past, lately the mushy-mouthed strawman in 2004 for fellow skull and bones man Shrub’s coup in Ohio. For revelations and demonstrations to be effective, someone, in fact, most people, have to be listening. Even if they were listening, the information has to get out to them. And, correct me if I am wrong, but I think most people don’t give a damn about torture or war crimes. I have never seen a single bumper sticker against the war on a car, anywhere, not one! Again, I am not saying do not demonstrate, our consciences demand that, just don’t expect results. There IS an issue, however, that could blow the center out of the credibility of our political and media elites and bring about such widespread popular revulsion that pehaps a popular paradigm shift might occur, that is, the obvious demolition of the three World Trade Center buildings. Common sense and one good eye tell us that those buildings were set up for demolition before 9-11. The commander in charge of NORAD, responsible for the greatest security failure in national history since the British burned DC, impossible to explain, was shortly thereafter promoted to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Relative to the government, there is NO benign explanation for the events of that day. A significant number of our citizens already smell a rat, reasonable enough since official explanation is ludicrous and they act like thieves covering their tracks, but this doubt is not focused. THIS is the issue that can crack the teflon of our kleptocracy and wake our sleepwalking fellow citizens.
Let’s hope these brave vets don’t “disappear” before they can tell their stories.
Much of what they are saying has already been reported on various blogs but until the MSM plasters it over peoples TV screens and newspapers, the general public will not bother to listen. Chances are the MSM will devote a couple of days worth of coverage in March but then will divert everyones attention to some other “important” news story of the day.
Corporations own the media and are quite happy to do the bidding of the powers that be, regardless if they are Rep or Dem; and I see no end to this sad state of affairs.
Get the ball rolling NOW. Press conference, High profile, in-your-face truth-telling…there is a Peoples Peace Summit Jan 18-20; momentum- by March lets make it MILLION.
And re: the interachange between Metamorph and Commentarian above; I echo Commentarian- we are where we are today because to many of US have been willing to fall into the trap of voting for someone other people tell is electable, rather than the person we think best represents us. As a life-long Dem, I see nobody other than Kucinich that I think is worth voting for at this point. If he does not get the party nomination, and I have to choose from what is left of the current field of “candidates” I will not vote.
ezeflyer; Good quote from EH. I remember another quote from Albert Camus, during an interview. When asked if “he was willing to die for his beliefs” he said, “No…what if I was wrong?”
I am thankful these brave soldiers are speaking out. A real display of courage.
Have any of you seen “The Christmas Truce” on the History Channel? If not, or are unaware of the events of Dec. 24, 1914 in the trenches on the French and Belgian borders during “the war to end all wars”, German and British troops actually got together on the battlefield, and despite the language barrier, embraced one another and decided not to fight. Of course the Generals safe from “harm’s way” found this intolerable and the war-mongering politicians were so outraged to think ’so-called enemies’ could became friends, both Britain and Germany announced harsh penalties for troops “collaborating with the enemy”.
During this phony commercial holiday, think about the effect which may have manifested if the “troops” of all the nations involved said, “NO”, to violence and returned home. Would the politicians take up arms against each other?
You Americans! What a disgusting country you live in!! Your leaders and your so called soldiers are no better than Rome! You kill and kill and kill! And then you call yourselves liberators! HOW MUCH OIL DO YOU PEOPLE NEED! But what should we expect about a country that treated its own native americans so badly and its blacks! You have so much blood on your hands America!!
Dear Kilgore Trout:
This is not about the MSM anymore.
This is bigger than the MSM.
They shouldn’t even be sent one freakin’ press release. Let them smell this one out on their own.
Shaft the bas****ds. Lets see how far they run when confronted by ordinary decent citizens. I’ll be happy to join you. I’m in West Scotland but what happens in USI affects us also here.
abbybwood: Agree there is no “need” for the MSM to cover the event but it is more a question of “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?”
The larger the coverage by MSM hopefully the louder the sound that will be heard from the public. It just seems to be the way with most people; it isn’t real until they see it on TV and the more they see it the “more real” it becomes.
For some of us who can think on our own, the above is not necessary, unfortunatley many have to be beaten over the head with coverage in order to finally get their attention.
cheers
If you feel strongly about the importance of this project, please sign the statement of support for the Winter Soldier Investigation. Go to the following site.
http://www.ivaw.org/wintersoldierstatementofsupport
This is such a delicious treat–who better to evalulate the US war effort in Iraq than those who actualy went there to do the fighting? they did it after all to preserve both our and their own freedom to speak freely–especially when we have the question of possible war crimes–very responsible and almost conservative Republican of them.
Hee Hee Hee!
I just don’t get it, here we have young men and women who volunteered to carry out these crimes or supported these crimes and now they’re looking or have passed through the door marked exit.
Are we now to say, ” Oh! you’ve confessed to your part in the crime now you’re ok “. I don’t think so, each and every one should be heading for the international court at the Hague. There is plenty of evidence to show that 9/11 was a false flag to generate support for the subsequent armed robbery coupled with the Vietnam and other crimes these people still went.
===========TROOPS RESIST:
1) http://objector.org/
Or
The GI Rights Hotline
(800) 394-9544
(510) 465-1472 (also international calls)
Fax (510) 465-2459
Mailing Address:
405 14th Street, Suite #205
Oakland, CA 94612
Email:
girights@objector.org
2) http://www.ivaw.org/activedutyresources
3) http://www.couragetoresist.org
4) http://www.ivaw.org/
5) http://www.sirnosir.com
This is hard to write, because I hate this war and the fascist government that lied us into it, and promotes even more war, hatred, cruelty and venality, but I have to say something about the soldiers that fight in these wars.
I look back on my own service time, so long ago. I was seventeen and joined the Navy for adventure, and the fact that the GI Bill would give me a chance at a college education.
You learn in boot camp that you follow orders. While you are aware that you can refuse an “illegal” order, you are also bombarded with the “fact” that your superiors know the “big picture,” and their orders are to facilitate that, even though it may not make sense to the grunt on the ground.
Esprit de Corps is drummed into your head. “All for one and one for all.” Though my service time had its hazards, I thank God I never had to kill anyone. However, I can imagine that the situation in Iraq is like the situation in Vietnam, where you have very few friends and many enemies. Namely everyone who does not want to be occupied by a foreign power.
In a situation like that, it is easy to shoot first and ask questions later. However, the person with personal honor will start questioning policies like carrying a few shovels, AK-47’s and detonators to plant on people you’ve shot so you can claim they are terrorists. I would imagine they would be horrified after a few times of having an air strike level a town, then going in to mop up and finding mostly women and children. These are the horrors that generate nightmares.
You see your buddies get killed, you kill people, perhaps you stop one yourself and get sent home, to be recycled to start the process again as soon as you are healed.
You don’t walk into that horror all wide eyed and ready to kill, but you find yourself sucked into it as a survival mechanism. It is hard to break out of it.
I am just happy that soldiers are finding the moral courage to finally speak out about what they have seen and done, and to try to change what is happening, against tremendous odds and the excoriations of the right, and the unthinking “patriotic American.”
All I can say is, good on ya and God bless. But, don’t wait too long, this nation is balancing on a knife edge.
LIBERTAS FUGIT — I think your post is very thoughful, and helps us w/o similar backgrounds, to better understand how and what happens when a bunch of brave young and impressionable men, are given the boot (camp, that is)
When you state that “you find yourself sucked into it as a survival mechanism”, it occurred to me that this temporary state of awareness is disconnected from the reality of ~ 120/week of the returning troops killing themselves (in shame for surviving, maybe?)
Thank you for being vulnerable and opening the window for us, I just wish more could see through it before enlisting.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
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Fuck war veterans. Why didn’t these numbskulls figure it out BEFORE going to war for Bush? The only Iraq war veterans I want to hear from are the IRAQI ones. You know the ones these bozos were killing in large numbers. Bunch of Patronizing fuck ups.
When I read a post such as BFK or pistonbroke above, judgemental and disparaging toward those who have had their patriotism abused by our barbaric foreign policy, who are the greatest American victims of the war, I long for the days of the draft when we (working-class men) didn’t have the luxury of standing safely aside and hurling insults. Do you pay your taxes, gents? You are equally guilty and compromised.
9/11 was strictly foreign policy blowback!! How many more ill seeds have been planted sine this so called “war on terror” which has been a war on the constitution and the middle class and all that is decent and good!
BFKate; With respect to your feelings about war veterans, ( I’m a combat veteran from the Vietnam War) the frustration within yourself and in the paragraph above is understandable. For the rest of my life, I’ll be remorseful in my actions against people my nation waged death, destruction, misery, and suffering on.
Ever since, I have become a pacifist and help others understand the nature and reasons for so- called “war”, and why none are necessary on this planet we human beings dwell on for a brief time.
What is more important than your and my opinions, is the good news and UNDERSTANDING of these men and women in uniform, and to use a cliche, “speaking truth to power”. That is a significant step in getting the word out to the “semi-conscious” public. It’s a start in the right direction.
With the exception of a few politicians, the rest of them belong behind bars for enabling the dumbest president we have ever had commit crimes against humanity.
Dear Dudleydoright, 9-11 was blowback only in the sense that JFK’s murder was blowback, murderous cladestine methods perfected abroad over time and then used domestically, chickens coming home to roost.
BFKate: It is easy to sit at home and judge people, but to really do it, you should walk in their shoes for a while.
Most of these young kids don’t have enough background to make a mature judgment as to what is going on. Many are dirt poor, from the slums, the barrio, or the farm. Our school systems don’t teach ethics, or government, or civics anymore. They are barraged with propaganda and recruiters who will promise anything. They get paid a bonus of more money than many have ever seen in their lives to sign up. They don’t know that if they get wounded or killed six months later, the military will bill them or their families for the “unearned” portion of their signing bonus, or that the military will renege on their benefits. A lot of them see this as a chance to get an education, or learn a trade, or a way out of the ghetto.
No, they don’t figure it all out beforehand. Most people don’t. I’m sure the CEO who raids corporations, trashes them for their retirement funds and their hardware, pays little attention to the lives he blights when he does this. He just counts his profits and looks for another company. In theory, he should at least have enough education to be able to make an informed, ethical, decision. Most of our cannon fodder does not.
There is no glory of war, but most learn that in the stench of blood and mud and feces, in the cries of the bereaved, in the eyes of the children, in the body bags holding their buddies. By then, it is too late for anything but nightmares.
The veterans bringing this out in public may not only increase public awareness, and encourage others in the services to perhaps do the same, but it might prevent some of the suicides and other mental and physical destruction that occurs when this stuff remains locked inside, to fester and grow.
What America seems to have lost is any sense of empathy or compassion. We cannot put ourselves in another’s place, nor do we seem to really care how they feel, or what happens to them, whether they are American soldiers, or Iraqis.
We used to be able to. I hope we gain it back.
Dear libertas fugit, May I add that it would be hard, indeed, for most young people today, poor or rich, educated or not, as it was when I was young, to believe that joining the military is not something to be proud of. This is, for good or bad, a basic part of our culture.
TonyVodvarka: True, but as long as militarism is glorified as some kind of noble cause, the conditions for it’s very existence will perpetuate and continue to grow. I understand BFKate’s emotional diatribe, as well. Sometimes a compassionate person becomes so frustrated at feeling helpless while watching a gang of bullies beating someone to death that they’ll say something outrageous in order to voice their concern for the victim or victims.
KBAI is a good station, Tony. (New York) I use to listen to Bob Grant on am radio years ago. I wonder if he’s still around?
I hope that they are careful. Admitting to witnessing attrocities or participating in them tends to be spun that you are blaming others for one’s own personal short-comings.
Hope Liam gets on The Hour. If he does, I will make sure you guys know about it.
Dear Peaceman, Bob Grant even has his own Wikipedia article. Militarism, big M, as a motivation of government is abominable. However, as long as nations need armies for self-defense, and as far as I can see they will for a long time to come, then the military virtues will be necessary, and will be regarded as noble by those who need them. It is the perversion of these virtues that is the problem.
Tony; Thanks for the info on Bob Grant.
All military forces must stay within their nations borders. Only to be used for defensive purposes against a foreign invader. Later.
Dear Peaceman, If he was on WBAI, would it have been Bob EDWARDS, not Grant?
TonyVodvarka; It wasn’t Pacifica, it was a regular am station, WMCA. I looked at the Wikipedia site and the article on Grant as well as Joe Pyne and it brought back memories. (The early 70’s with Grant) It seems eons ago. I’ll check the WBAI web page and see what their format is like. Peace and Harmony.
Tonyvodvarka, I served in the British Army for 25 years but I refused to help the fascist clique of Britain, France and Israel invade Egypt in 1956 for that disobedience I was demoted but i was not only re-insyated to my previous rank but promoted.
These Kids knew or should have known the nature of their task, they were not defending America they were responding to the bullshit and an attack on America by their own government, unless of course you think that 19 arabs armed with nothing but small knives overcame the US miltary.
I can well understand these kids answering a call if there had been a full investigation into 9/11 but there wasn’t, just a whitewash commission.
5 British soldiers have been captured in IRAQ, or as the BBC put it, KIDNAPPED. How an invading bunch of thugs can be KIDNAPPED just shows the level of propaganda being broadcast by the Fascist supporters.
Dear Pistonbroke, Apologies for my sarky tone to you above, these dark days here it is often difficult to suppress. As you may have seen in my post above, we are in agreement about 9-11 being a false flag operation. Personally, that those three buildings disintegrated into their basements at the speed of gravity has only one possible explanation, pre-set explosives. But most of the American public will not be ABLE to come to that conclusion because it is literally UNTHINKABLE. Some haircut on Fox news could claim that Dawkins’ flying spaghetti monster caused it and that would be a preferable explanation, pure self-censorship. What the hell, I was like that about the JFK assassination for a score of years until I woke up. Given that, the forces that propel non-affluent Americans into the service are more than understandable as with myself when I enlisted during the Eisenhower recession in the late fifties, boredom, poverty, lack of education and any real alternative, and frankly, wanting to prove my mettle in the most societally approved manner open to me at that age. I applaud your decision of non-cooperation above, such a decision in a military society is most difficult. In the American service, such non-cooperation always has severe repercussions. Perhaps your good fortune thereafter, unknowable to you at the time, can be attributed to the fact that much of British society rejected the Suez debacle and the government and its policies soon fell. Anyway, all good fortune to our military brothers and sisters above, and here’s hoping that a national paradigm shift such as occurred in Britain after the Suez crisis happens here, revealing the heroic nature of their protest.