The Tortured Logic of the Torturers

anney
appreciate your words and wisdom of 68 years. I am 51 and moving that way all too quickly!! I have worked in social services and mental health for 30 years. I have seen suffering inflicted on every manner of person. I have worked in local prisons, watched the workings of our Social Service organizations, have watched "average americans" raising their children and seen the care that Veterans get. I have seen little I would call "justice."
When I do see love, compassion, forgiveness and mercy, it is sporadic, some individual with deep beleifs doing the best they can against overwhelming odds. It is there I see God at work and it sustains me. I do not trust what is in the heart of man to dole out "justice". I am not bound by the words of Christ, I choose to make them part of my life and pray God will strengthen me for the time ahead living in this country.

jesmsw, You are right on. It wasn't just Jesus who said it either. Every person who has woke up knows the worst of humanity is a part of every one of us, just as each of us is a potential Christ. I believe that Jesus and Buddha learned to love. What passes for love among most of us is a mild and conditional affection.

Love is all inclusive and unconditional. The failure to love George and Dick is a failure to love anybody. I can't do it (yet) but if you manage to pray for them and be grateful for them you have done what you were sent here to do; learned what you were born to learn, and become the thing we all ought to be.

Anytime you see something heroic or noble---or on the other hand vile and vicious---know that you are equal to that. All of us are.

Thank you Turner; I wouldn't be here today if someone hadn't intervened for me; I know they risked their own lives to save mine; I have no way of knowing what prices they may have paid for their actions.

Doing what we know is right as human beings can be very costly; doing what we know is wrong as human beings can be very costly too.

We cannot learn without making mistakes and we cannot recover from our mistakes without admitting them. Harming other human beings, except with the intent of keeping them from doing greater harm, is a mistake; abusing and mistreating others are examples of this mistake.

The events of September 11 were a new experience for all of us; all of us, while learning how best to respond to those events made mistakes; the sooner we admit those mistakes and get on with our lives the better for everyone.

Abusing and mistreating other human beings can be a difficult mistake to admit. I hope that anyone who has made this mistake will learn from it and not repeat it. The road ahead will be happier if we all learn and grow together.

Tears fill my eyes when I think where we might be if General Peter Pace had not stood up to Rumsfeld and the rest, both in the instance you related and in removing the nuclear option from the Iran plans.

This would be a very different world in the absence of courageous men and women; we are all in their debt.

For what it's worth--

From "Beltway Confidential"

Is your Bible getting dusty?

Another Sunday and President Bush skipped church. We can't remember the last time he went. He never used to miss church -- and we know, because we get Sunday pool duty all the time and have to get up in the dark and go with him.

9/23 pool report: The president of America eschewed church on this fine Sunday and instead went for a bike ride in Virginia....

9/30 pool report: The evangelical president did not go to church today, but he did go on a bike ride....

10/7 pool report: (Bush gave a speech at the National Fire Academy)

10/14 pool report: (Bush was on his Crawford ranch)

10/21 pool report: Pool reported this morning and headed straight for biking, no church....

10/28 pool report: No church, and uneventful bike ride at Fort Belvoir, Va.

http://blogs.chron.com/beltwayconfidential/2007/10/is_your_bible_getting...

Lee Ann, Chrono-synclastic, Rhyno & Anney: interesting points raised by all.

Euphemisms and odd terminology fog reality.

'Waterboarding' uses force to suffocate a person already under physical control and vulnerable: they cannot breathe and fear death.

A 'melodious manicure' is the process of quickly and totally removing one or more fingernails / toenails from a captive.

Someone 'is screwed' when a screwdriver is suddenly thrust into heart or body.

Each of the above is bad and wrong.

When I was in Iraq as a soldier, I stopped some mild abuse - directed toward 3rd party nationals who cleaned the tolier/showers chews, and directed towards prisoners. Little stuff like keeping a hood on them most of the day without water. Mind you it was 140 degrees.

Who do you think KBR is getting to go over to Iraq. Managers? Hardy. Instead of out work idiots who are high and managing 3rd country nationals. Poor Indian and Napalese men, who can't beleive they are being treated that way. I intervened on several occasions - "making sure everyting is okay." I went to the manager of KBR one time and had that person removed. He was reassigned to other duties - likely doing the same thing on the other side of the base. Americans KBR employees do little more then manage. They just drive around "Managing."

I didn't care what happened to me, I just hoped I could count on a good battalion commander who may go by the words of General Peter Pace when he interrupted Rumsfeld to say to all soldiers that it is their duty to interene and stop abuse and torture of any person. I my loyal Bushie soldier colleages could only call me a liberal - as if that was a bad word.

Now you have these pieces of crap that do not stand up to it - even at their General level. And what does this say to those soldiers who they command?

jesmsw

I appreciate your struggle in faith, given the evil in this world. I'm 68 years old and have seen much suffering of the innocent. I'm not as bound by a willingness to believe that a willingness to love one's enemies changes the world. Maybe loving my own enemies blunts my desire for revenge, but I cannot love those who brutally murder and torture innocents.

I don't think the alternative is to pay evil with evil but rather with justice. Otherwise, would you allow evil to continue to harm others? Children? They were sodomized, screaming, at Abu Ghraib with their mothers watching. That's just one example. The millstone that is better for them than their actions must be applied by human beings.

"And whoever offends against one of these little ones … it would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and for him to be cast into the sea."

But of course, justice must be handed down for the good of those who are evil, not for one's own good or even revenge because that can lead to evil in oneself. But for the perpetrator of evil, justice provides a solitary opportunity for remorse and repentance.

At any rate, things to think about.

anney
the faith I choose to practice is the one that Christ professed. I do struggle with the notion of "love your enemy" and don't see myself capable of it on my own. Yet, I believe it would change the world. Many people are doing this in small ways all over the globe. They make a difference. It is difficult for me to look at the enormous evil being done today and stick by my faith. But the alternative is to pay evil with evil. That doesn't seem to be working out so well.

jesmsw

Why save your deepest prayers for those who "who permit, encourage, direct, engage in and ignore torture"?

Isn't this a bit like a bunch of psychologists who find a man beaten and bleeding along the side of the road and exclaim, "We must find the one who did this and help him!"

Well, a bit of a cheap shot on my part, but I'm afraid that it's up to us human beings to make sure that the consequences for those in the "love-to-torture" boat are severe enough that they are unable to do it again. They need to learn that torturing people brings certain human justice and retribution, and this justice is necessary to bring the tortured back into the fold of health and lovingkindness. Only then do they know that we have made a moral choice against what was done to them.

Anyone can call themselves "Christian". Judge them by the words of Jesus Christ. Luke 6:27
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you"
or
Luke 6:29 "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic."

I pray for those who have experienced torture but I save my deepest prayers for those who permit, encourage, direct, engage in and ignore torture.

2cents

While I know what you mean about Americans being the "good Germans" of 80 years ago, I think the analogy is a bit off.

Americans aren't fawning at the feet of GW Bush except for his few supporters, but the Germans really thought Hitler was their "savior" and the majority did fawn at his feet. Bush has made such a botch of everything he SAYS are his goals and is now whining about it that he's a laughingstock to most people. He certainly isn't respected nor is he a savior to anybody. He's the one we recognize as the problem, not "terrorists". He's designated average Americans as terrorists, and we know it. I'm always torn between my knowledge of the administration's incompetence caused by their ignorance of the lessons of history and the grim realization of what they'd like to do.

So anyway, FWIW, I thought I'd mention that difference.

I'd like to see thousands of protesters in cities all over the US standing still and day after day just chanting in unison over and over, "Bush tortures, Bush to the Hague", not destroying property, no interaction with bystanders or passers-by, not breaking barricades, not blocking traffic, no "civil disobedience" at all, just the voice of thousands upon thousands.

I heard Scott Simon on NPR this morning calling the Schumer/Feinstein defection a "big victory" for Bush. It's certainly a victory for the cause of torture, and Bush must be ecstatic. Schumer/Feinstein argue that Mukasey is a consensus candidate. I can understand the fascists on the Judiciary Committee trotting out such bogus rationalizations, but why the two Jewish Senators, with all their collective historical experience as victims of state persecution? Could it be that Schumer/Feinstein provided their crucial support for torture because they think it will be used only on Arabs, never on Jews?

They couldn't be that blind and hypocritical, could they? Surely they realize that what goes around, comes around? In pre-WWII Germany, powerful German Jews allied with the Nazis because they thought they could use the Nazis to advance their own political agenda. Whoopsy! Well, you know what they say about best-laid plans going awry. Anyway, whatever their motivation, the result is the same, a major victory for the fascists and a serious setback for our Bill of Rights.

On a talk show yesterday a lady with the Republican party said that water boarding wasn't that bad, they wake up the next day feeing fine. As someone who was tortured once I can tell you that you're never fine again, somewhere inside you those feeling reside.

If you want to do something proactive join Dennis Kucinich by calling your congressmen and women demanding the impeachment of Cheney. You can look at the Progressive Democtats web site for all the information.

Those with the loudest voice win.

Where were all the "good germans" before and during ww2. It's becoming clearer and clearer that they were feeling impotent, being impotent, and fearing arrest by the secret police. Just like the "good americans" are now.

rhyyno--that's it in a nutshell.
I heard about Feinstein and Schumer caving, on assurances from Mukasey that he would really and truly study the issue once he is confirmed. Schumer was badly compromised on this guy to begin with, but Feinstein, a one-time liberal, now is just another bought-off pol, and is of no further use. She's about a west-coast version of Susan Collins.
Wash. Post had it bass-ackwards again, saying just approve Mukasey and then pass Biden's bill against torture. Well then Bush gets what he wants, while this bill can be (1)killed by the Goppies, (2)vetoed by the prez, or(3)signed into law with a signing statement attached saying the president will ignore this. Congress should not have thrown away their leverage by okaying Mukasey.
Rich Lowry of Nat'l Review infamy was on Newshour arguing the affirmative on waterboarding. Like, how can it be torture when it only lasts a couple minutes and a person is not injured by it? And he also brought out the "ticking time-bomb" instance, and the fact of its use in special forces training.
But if it isn't torture, what is it? Interrogation? For it to be interrogation one would have to be asking a question, and the one questioned would have to be able to answer. I have no experience with this, but I believe it would be hard to talk while you're drowning. I don't need to be an attorney general to know that coercing suffering in the hope of obtaining information is torture.

West European reliance on torture was infrequent during its Medieval period. The widespread use of torture, public executions, mutilations and physical humiliation emerged with the Renaissance.

Witch and heretic burnings, the Inquisition, public beheadings, etc. started gaining momentum during the 15th c.

Of course, the mass genocide, ethnocide and the mass production of slavery that devastated millions from the Canaries, West Africa to the Americas started in the 15th c.

Let's face it. The modern world-capitalist system and its state-oriented imitators has always considered nature, people and cultures disposable.

Its good business. Profits before people.

Should rapist be the ones to define rape? Should the Nazi's decide their war crimes?

Why should the torturers be allowed to define torture? Like the other posters above, I totally disagree with the premise of this debate.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 gutted the War Crimes Act of 1996 which clearly prohibited torture.

Also, I've been reading posts here where people are saying using torture makes it impossible for the US to claim the moral high ground. Since when has the US government been able to legitimately claim the moral high ground on ANYTHING? Since the late 1800's The US has been one of the most evil nations on the planet... They just tell us they're not.

ChronoSyclastic, agreed, just quibbling about tactics.

Unfortunately, after long debate, opposition to torture is still very weak in both the US House and Senate. Ergo the Military Commissions Act of 2006 instead of a clear prohibition of torture.

So-called Democrats Feinstein and Schumer just announced their support for Torquemada II, so odds are we'll have another torturer running the DOJ.

Opposition to slavery was similarly weak in Congress before the Civil War. If Congress and the Fugitive Act had prevailed, blacks would still be in chains.

Yeah, let's put anyone who's not sure if waterboarding is torture or not on the board and give em a go... then ask them again if it's torture or not... then if they still don't know, maybe we can use electrodes on their genitals until they figure it out... or wait... is that torture too? I'm so confused now.

IF waterboarding is not torture, then it should be a legitimate way for Congress to interogate Presidental Nominees ....

Drowning or partial drowning fills the lungs with water cutting off the oxygen supply to the brain. This impairs brain function temporarily; or permanently.

(Every beach and pool lifeguard knows this.)

Any neurological damage that results can permanently interfere with memory or cognitive functions. The victim may suffer a loss of memory without being aware of the loss themselves, they may not remember things or remember things differently than they were. The victim may lose the ability to articulate memories they have or believe they have or they may articulate memories they think they have of events that never occurred. The possibilities are unpredictable.

No credible individual in any field would recommend that such a technique be used to gather information from anyone; or for any other reason; at war or not.

The personal ramifications (to everyone) are unpredictable.
The medical ramifications (to everyone) are unpredictable.
The legal ramifications (to everyone) are unpredictable.
The military ramifications (to everyone) are unpredictable.
The political ramifications (to everyone) are unpredictable.

Senascents Feinstein and Schumer have announced they'll go with Mukasey. Schumer has said it was a very hard decision. Apparently not hard enough.

And they don't even have to be tortured.

Ostrogoth -- you say "On this issue [of torture] we either fight or retun to the jungle."

Agreed, we shouldn't have to actually debate the use of torture.
But as practical matter, we're forced to fight it's use via 'debate' in the congress, because sociopath Bush insists on playing word games.

For civilized people, the 'debate' should consist only of this: No torture as defined by internationl law. Period.

Sociopaths in the US current executive of course want to play with words and definitions; trying to create false distinctions and loopholes in what international law has already adequately defined.

And so, in our congress, this obviously forces what I was refering to as 'debate.'

You & I are on the same page, here -- believe me.

I find it interesting that Mukasey is excused by Dumbya from answering the question because he has not had the classified briefing (how long would that take???) for which he has not been cleared.

He's been nominated for A.G. but he hasn't been cleared for at least the highest security ratings?

What could they be thinking? Or have they been thinking?

ChronoSynclastic said: "That we have an administration and president who don't even want the issue debated at all, is a supervening signal of exactly why we now must debate it..."

Great post, but why debate torture? There are no plausible arguments in favor. Torture is counterproductive, a political and moral dead-end. We cede crucial political and moral ground when we debate torture with facists who reflexively justify all possible evils on grounds of national security. Upright apes have been using instruments of torture since they first invented tools. The prohibition of torture and slavery were watershed moments of political progress, but human nature is innately fascist, racist, xenophobic, and always ready to throw off the yoke of civilization.

It's useless to argue or reason with the fascists, aka new conservatives, on this point. They don't want debate, they want to destroy civilization. Torture, like genocide, ethnic cleansing and slavery, is a red-line issue which admits no discussion and no compromise. On this issue, we either fight or return to the jungle.

In Nazi Germany the best and the brightest cooperated. The medical community helped with torture and involuntary sterilizations. Judges sentenced people they knew to be innocent for political purposes. Virtually every profession welcomed free Jewish slave labor, including Von Braun and his rocket wizards. Hell, the whole world cooperated---from IBM to USA immigration who would not accept the Jews who tried to come here.

"Maybe they did it but I never would"---Yes you would.

OK maybe 1% of us wouldn't but how do you know you would be among them?

OldBadger - good point and well said. Whether or not an omniscient, omnipotent god exists has no bearing upon what is moral and what is not. Morality has to do with treating others, including the environment and our non-human neighbors, with the respect we ourselves require for a decent life. At its very best, it includes an awareness that we are all part of the same energy system, and when we hurt others, we hurt ouselves. Morality, even at its worst, is pragmatic. It just works better to treat each other well, to respect the environment, to refrain from intruding upon the dignity or well-being of anyone.

It's been said that religion keeps bad people from doing harm, but any review of history will prove that this is nonsense. It may prevent some people from evil, but it's far more likely to provide an excuse for the most heinous acts, as it so often has for thousands of years.

Thanks for the article...

I would have to say, though, that 'governments and ecclesiastical bodies' can often be composed of 'criminal sadists', because anyone who engages in this really is a criminal sadist, by definition.

And one need only consider the big success of the mel gibson film, 'Passion of the Christ', and it isn't too surprising to see how acceptable torture would be in a 'christian' nation. Watching it on screen was considered deeply spiritual to a vast number of people.

Most politically conservative Christians I've talked to have no use for the social gospel of their professed faith -- a font of values that's totally at odds with something like Torture.

Such conservatives are, at root, characterological fascists (US Kultur reproduces millions of these.) They couch their actual, personal inclinations in the hate, fear, and punishment norms of the Old Testment, while cloaking their narrow-minded meanness in hypocritical, hysterical blabberings about "Jesus's love," etc.

Such conservatives have never met a US war they couldn't support; routinely and insanely, as they do, equating their jingoistic patriotism with 'god's will' and 'True Christianity.'

Progressive political correctness tells us not to negatively harp on the pronoun 'they' when we critique other groups of humans, lest we feed-into the age-old error of fragmenting our common humanity in the name of uniting it. But we can bypass that restriction, I think, when we are identifying a sub-set of people who openly reject the very notion of a common humanity.

That waterboarding is even being debated as 'possibly legitimate,' is a telling measure of how confused, compartmentalized, and debased American culture has become.

That we have an administration and president who don't even want the issue debated at all, is a supervening signal of exactly why we now must debate it, staunchly argue it down, and put shame on the pseudo-Christian, characterological fascists who pretend to rule in our name.

Strap them in a chair and play endless renditions of "afternoon delight" by the Starland vocal band. They'll talk.

I think too many focus on the actual technique involved here. The main interest of the Bush administration and US fascists in general is to roll back prohibitions on torture. As brain function and anatomy become better understood, you can be pretty sure the next generation's interrogators will be using brain electrodes (for pain or pleasure or other purpose), MRIs (not for torture, but for evidence of honesty or dishonesty), and other advanced devices as they leave waterboarding far behind.

Orwell was far too optimistic.

We will have war as long as we have slaughterhouses.

As long as we have mentally disturbed scientists who believe that we should attempt to help the sick and dying by causing innocents to be sick and dying(non human animal species, African children, unsuspecting patients in government experiments) we will have a bankrupt society.

Cowards use torture. Chickenhawks use torture. Do Bush and Cheney use torture?
Hoa binh

"With those weasel words, we've officially entered the medieval phase of American history."

Really?! Thanks for the notification. It's often hard to distinguish any particular American 'phase' from all the others. This one does, however, seem somewhat more blatant than most.

Uhm, let's see. I think the Romans must have had a similarly nuanced definition of torture as it pertains to nailing people to crosses. And Pontius Pilate sayeth, "You knowus, I findeth cross nailings to be personally "repugnant," but thou needeth only look at the actual facts, circumstances, and legal standards presented."
I guess everyone mourns the torture of Jesus Christ, but we are all so sure that He would endorse it on anyone we think might pose a threat. Hypocrites one and all. But then again, it is so hard to be pious in these times where the very clothes on our backs are made by children in tortured conditions. So what to do? Close your eyes and hope for the Rapture for all white, non-gay, non-adulterous, non-abortion rights, wealthy and middle class Christians!

"there's always the possibility that God doesn't exist, so everything is "legal" in the end anyway" "Legal" isn't the same as "moral" nor is it a man-made substitute. One needn't be a believer to be a moral person, nor is morality dependent on the existance of a God. Since there isn't one, that is just as well. Besides, Christians are quite capable of dropping nuclear bombs on whole cities of civilians and justifying it as "patriotic duty". We need humane morality when God and Country both call for slaughter.

I say that we only allow those have physically undergone waterboarding be allowed to define it or not as torture.

If it's not torture, perhaps it could be used in a celebrity game show, as a harmless form of entertainment for the American public. Perhaps some of those who so strenuously support the use of waterboarding would like to go on the show and submit themselves to it, for laughs, and to reassure the stupid doubters among us.

Land of the free? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I guess it also shows how "Christian" christianity is. But I'm beating a dead horse.

There is a grim irony in listening to torture supporters quibble over whether this or that technique for inflicting physical pain is torture. Wasn't it Republicans who use to complain about criminals getting off on technicalities? Isn't it the Turks who fiercely object to calling their mass slaughter of Armenians "genocide" even when admitting the fact?

That we even have a large number of torture supporters in America has shattered my belief in American moral superiority and the power of reason forever. That they are in power and able to do what they want without serious hindrance from the so-called opposition party is a moral disaster beyond belief. They like to justify it by the need to get "actionable intelligence"; maybe you get accurate information from someone through torture or maybe you don't. The real reason for torture today is to inflict terror. Republican voters, at least, are psychologically ready to support concentration or even death camps when asked to do so, whether the victims be Muslims, blacks, liberals or other people they love to hate. It needs only the next 9/11, real or fancied.

This is a sin against God and people, and for a christian nation to partake of this kind of behavior clearly illustrates just how "christian" the leaders are, and those who agree with this kind of action. It is just too easy to become what you abhor, and the U.S. government has done that without any qualms. I have often wondered why so many Germans for example, allowed the barbarity of what happened in their country to take place? Why more did not speak out?
It is because those in power, isolate themselves and their actions from the public, they claim all sorts of righteous goals, but their actions speak louder than their words do. They have rejected democracy, they deny the will of the people, and ignore their citizens concerns for their own selfish, corrupt, and sometimes evil aims. I keep forgetting that their attitude is that most people are too stupid, or ignorant to have their concerns or ideas considered. Most Americans are better than this I think, and their leaders should be ashamed of their actions.