House Sustains President’s Veto on Child Health
WASHINGTON - The House on Thursday upheld President Bush’s veto of a bill to provide health insurance to 10 million children, but Democrats vowed to send it back to him next month, with minor changes, in the belief that they could ultimately prevail.
Despite a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign and intense lobbying by children’s advocates, supporters of the bill were unable to convert a single House Republican who voted against the bill last month.
For now, the insurance vote stands as the latest example of how Mr. Bush can still get his way on Capitol Hill. Through artful use of veto threats and his veto pen, Mr. Bush has fended off attempts to force a change of course in Iraq - a feat Democrats would never have imagined when they pushed Republicans out of power a year ago. He has twisted Democrats into knots over domestic surveillance, and forced them to rethink a resolution condemning as genocide a century-old massacre of Armenians.
The outcome on Thursday, reminding Democrats of the limits of their power, came as Congress and the president prepared to square off over a dozen spending bills needed to finance the government in the new fiscal year. President Bush has threatened to veto at least 10 of those measures, while also holding the Democrats responsible for not acting more quickly on the bills, which were supposed to be enacted by Sept. 30.
In the vote on Thursday, the roll call was 273-156. That was 13 votes short of the two-thirds majority needed to pass the measure over the president’s objections. In the Senate, the bill was approved last month with more than a two-thirds majority.
The bill would have increased spending on the State Children’s Health Insurance Program by $35 billion, bringing the total to $60 billion over the next five years. It would have provided coverage for nearly 4 million uninsured children, while continuing coverage for 6.6 million already on the rolls.
After the House vote, Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California said, “In the next two weeks, we intend to send the president another bill that provides health care for 10 million children.” That goal, she said, is “not negotiable.”
Ms. Pelosi and her lieutenants later crossed the Capitol to discuss options with the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, and Republican senators who had helped write the legislation.
At the White House, aides to Mr. Bush said they took heart that enough Republicans were willing to stand with the president to keep the veto intact.
“This isn’t the last fight we’re going to have where Democrats will try to put forth legislation that is populist or will tug at the heart strings,” said Tony Fratto, the deputy White House press secretary.
Mr. Fratto added, “Is it a good day? No. A good day will be the day that we pass legislation that the president can sign. But it is gratifying to know that we’ve got Republicans with sufficient backbone who are willing to stand tall and fight on principle in order to get the policy right.”
But some Republicans, like Representative Thomas M. Davis III of Virginia, who was chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee when Mr. Bush ran for election in 2000, were furious with Mr. Bush for putting them in such a difficult spot on children’s health.
“He’s not going to get his way on this,” said Mr. Davis, who voted to override the veto and predicted that Mr. Bush would ultimately be forced to sign a measure similar to the one he rejected.
“And he’s jeopardizing people’s careers,” added Mr. Davis, who is contemplating a race for the Senate.
On the House floor, Democrats told Republicans they would pay a political price for their opposition.
Representative Charles B. Rangel, Democrat of New York, who is chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, said that “President Bush is going to be there at his ranch in Texas” at the time of the next election.
“He will not be with you at the polls,” Mr. Rangel said. “By that time, the truth will have caught up with the message that the president and you are using to sustain his veto.”
Democrats are seeking ways to revise the bill to answer criticism from Republicans who said it did not focus enough on low-income children. Critics say the bill would allow coverage of children from middle- and upper-income families and of adults and some illegal immigrants.
Mr. Bush has named three senior administration officials to negotiate with Congress. But Democratic leaders would prefer to deal directly with the president.
“We intend to sit down with the president any time he is ready,” Ms. Pelosi said. “We hope that will be soon.”
Chances for a quick compromise with the White House looked slim.
Representative John B. Larson of Connecticut, a member of the House Democratic leadership, said, “We have a president frozen in the ice of his own indifference toward the children of this country.”
Ms. Pelosi said she had no interest in an idea promoted by some Republicans in Congress: providing tax credits to middle-income families to help them buy private insurance for their children.
Tempers flared when House Democrats compared Mr. Bush’s veto of the child health bill with his support for the war in Iraq.
Representative Pete Stark, the California Democrat who is chairman of the Ways and Means Subcommittee on Health, told Republicans: “You don’t have money to fund the war or children. But you’re going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president’s amusement.”
Representative Kevin Brady, Republican of Texas, said Mr. Stark’s comments were “despicable and beneath contempt.”
In the vote Thursday, 229 Democrats and 44 Republicans supported the bill. Two Democrats and 154 Republicans voted against it. The House passed the bill in September by a vote of 265 to 159. Six Democrats switched from no to yes, and one newly elected Democrat, Nicola S. Tsongas of Massachusetts, voted to override the veto just hours after she was sworn in on Thursday.
Republicans said Democrats were blocking renewal of the program so they could retain a powerful political issue. “Rather than playing politics with children’s health care or scoring points with radio and TV ads, Congress can show the American people that we are here to solve problems,” said Representative Michele Bachmann, a freshman Republican from Minnesota.
In some ways, the outcome of Thursday’s vote was not surprising; experts say it is extremely difficult for Congress to override a presidential veto. President Bill Clinton exercised 36 regular vetoes during his eight years in office; 2 were overridden. Mr. Bush’s father exercised his veto pen 29 times, with 1 override. What would have been surprising, scholars say, would have been for Democrats to prevail.
And in the end, the veto may not do Mr. Bush much good, especially if he signs a bill similar to the one he rejected.
“It was an ambiguous victory,” said John J. Pitney, a political science professor at Claremont McKenna College in California, “because Democrats may have lost on the legislation, but they won themselves a campaign issue.”
Carl Hulse contributed reporting.
© 2007 The New York Times
What can anyone possibly say about a country that wages a trillion dollar illegal war but can’t provide it’s own children with decent health care?
And we have the nerve to call other countries “backwards”
I’m 42 and have never, EVER been so profoundly disgusted with my own country.
Readers, check this out: a truth telling Congressman on this issue. A ray of hope.
Written by Chris Floyd http://www.chris-floyd.com/
Thursday, 18 October 2007
Man Bites Dog, Sun Sets in East: Congressman Tells Truth
I know that a lot of people are linking to this, but it’s so rare for anyone in Congress to tell the truth about anything at all that it seems worth recording it here at our fruit stand as well. Here’s Rep. Pete Stark from the debate over Bush’s veto of child health insurance (which was, inevitably, upheld):
First of all, I’m just amazed they can’t figure out, the Republicans are worried we can’t pay for insuring an additional 10 million children. They sure don’t care about finding $200 billion to fight the illegal war in Iraq. Where ya gonna get that money? You going to tell us lies like you’re telling us today? Is that how you’re going to fund the war? You don’t have money to fund the war or children. But you’re going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the President’s amusement. This bill would provide healthcare for 10 million children and unlike the President’s own kids, these children can’t see a doctor or receive necessary care. […]
But President Bush’s statements about children’s health shouldn’t be taken any more seriously than his lies about the war in Iraq. The truth is that Bush just likes to blow things up. In Iraq, in the United States and in Congress.
Let’s hope Pete’s plane doesn’t have engine trouble on his flight back to California. Stuff happens, you know.
“Lockheed Martin, we never forget we’re working just as hard to kill kids here as we are ‘over there’ “
Bushco - The Christain death cult’s greatest freind.
If this man did not exist, he would have be created in parody of just how evil and corrupt a politician can get. We know he is a ‘dry’ alcoholic. There is evience that he used cocaine. We know of his messianic/apocalyptic Christian beliefs. He giggles when he talks of World War III.
He is Nero and Hitler combined, the incestuous bastard of unlimited wealth and unopposed power.
He has been the death of hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
He is the Anti-christ the televangelists have been waiting for, praying for.
Bush is the antithesis of everything decent and noble in the human spirit.
President Bush, What did 10 million American children say to you?
Bush whips around and stares at me. “No, I didn’t meet with any of them,” he snaps, as though I’ve just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. “I didn’t meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview though. He asked real difficult questions, like ‘What would you say to Presdient Bush?’ ”
“What was their answer?” I wonder.
“Please,” Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, “don’t kill me.”
The SCHIP veto either works to engage some new people to vote Democratic in 2008, or it works (as Republicans hope) to energize conservatives to believe they have the liberals, PROGRESSIVES, and Democrats on the run.
This is a progressive site, so which side of that will we find the majority of subsequent posters to be landing on?
“Congressmember Pete Stark has set off a furious Republican reaction with his comments on the House floor. Stark said: “You don’t have money to fund the war or children. But you’re going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president’s amusement.”
Stark has refused to apologize.” (Democracy Now Headlines)
Bush wins again! Democrats, give it up. You’re too weak to play in the game of politics.
Tough leadership is required, Demos don’t have it. Now they can wipe the egg off of their faces
Social Darwinism is the only kind the right accepts. The Dems, like their liberal fans playe the role of the handwringers — but little more.
Was anyone really surprised?
I think not.
Check the insurance company contributions to those GOP Reps who supported the president.
At least they were honest in their votes.
The bought votes stayed bought.
It was not a question of priorities as much as obeisance to the human greed factor.
Remember that in our current society : “CORPORATIONS RULE!”
and the rich get richer.
We could only hope the Bush twins (spawn of evil) are not carrying their insurance cards on the day they are wheeled into some backwater hospital with cases of acute alcohol poisoning.
GALEN: I share your sentiments. I believe in karma, and that everyone is “judged” according to how s/he behaved with the info given, or accepted as true. The ego may conform to the evils of a society, but all but the most lost souls still maintain a spark of truth planted by Creative forces in their hearts. It takes great depravity to choose the illusions cast by the ego over the Truth that echoes in the soul. Of course few listen for the voice within in a nation that relays data and false info (mostly) 24/7.
Just for the sake of humor, when people like Al Goe discuss carbon credits, I’d like to extend this idea to the elite political establishment and its members: How much karma trading would you elect to do? How much of your unapologetic bounty would you be willing to give to the “least among you” to pay off even some of your inordinate debt to mankind, a toll that will require lifetimes of payment on an earth apt to be vastly compromised, from the perspective of stabilized ecology and sustainable harvest cycles.
Paper money buys little when worth has been lost.
So, what’s the point? Why bother? I mean — I was brought up in a time when we measured meaning and a civil society’s governance not by how it empowered and endowed the circle of “haves” but the “have nots” within our midst.
When backs are turned against the most vulnerable, there is no point to sustaining the support we offer to this system. Forget the words — look at this action and all that it tells. Our government and its representatives no longer value civil society and no longer value service — let alone people and life.
We now openly slam, steal and slaughter people from other parts of the world. We torture — (Yes, we do George Bush — you liar!) And now, we even slam children — and don’t even have the sense to see this is the future we are destroying. Just what the hell is this government worth anymore? Just what the hell are these so-called elected officials worth? They’re failures as representatives, as people and as mothers and father and grandparents. They’re disconnected power seekers — disconnected from their minds and their hearts. They have now turned their cold backs against not only the people — but now the children of the United States. They are disgusting and they are the truest form of cowards! They lack the guts to stand up — not merely against the stupidity of war — but for children — children! They’re useless!
Folks, it’s time to gather — work together — and empower and act for ourselves — AND our children — ALL of them!
I getting my child, gathering my freinds, getting a few supplies as soon as I can…And kissing this whole sorry corporate fascist shitcan goodbye.
We had our turn. It was a fun time. But it’s over. The resources are almost used up, population is growing out of proportion to the enviroments capability to sustain it. And we have a drug addled whack job with delusions of messianic persecution with his finger on the Big Red Button sitting in the Whitehouse.
Pff.
Gonna homestead a little pice of land someplace quiet and off the beaten track, go off the grid and live low to the ground, as low tech as I can manage.
I suggest you all do likewise, cuz there is no happy shiny plastic Star Trek future.
Galen - SCHIP was the last straw for this camel. I have dis-invested of this Fascist Theocracy. Now to find a basement flat ala John Galt. Please wake me when the revolution is over.
THIS IS A OUTRAGE! THERE ARE OVER 7 MILLION OF US GRANDPARENTS RAISING OUR GRANDS IN THIS COUNTRY.. TWO OF MY GRANDSONS ARE CURRENTY ON THE SCHIP PROGRAM IN CALIFORNIA. I BELONG TO SEVERAL GRANDPARENTS ORGANIZATIONS AND HAVE MY OWN YAHOO GROUP AS WELL.. THIS IS A VERY SAD DAY IN THIS COUNTRY, BOTH THE DEMOCRATS AND THE REPUBLICANS SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES.. I GUESS 7 MILLION OF US GRANDS WILL HAVE TO MARCH TO WASHINGTON DC.. A VERY UPSET GRANDMA..
There have been dozens (actually hundreds or thousands)of posts over the past few years questioning the mentality of those who would put so much time, money, and effort into protecting the fetus from the moment of conception until birth, yet turn their backs on it once it’s taken its first breath; support the death penalty, even when there’s a good chance the accused could be innocent; and rally round a madman already responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people, and is bent on starting WWIII.
The only way that question can be answered is by getting to know the people with those mind sets (sure! Kinda like diving willingly into cesspool). I’ve often said that the tower of Babel isn’t just a biblical reference. It remains, very real. The two sides of our government is a good case in point. It’s like two completely different alien species speaking different languages. Then there’s those in between, many who come closest to knowing the mindsets of the two parties. Therein lies our hope.
Grandma: Teach you grandkids what your grandma taught you. How to garden, darn a sock, and can vegetables. What’s coming a’int pretty, and the more self reliant they are, the better off they will be.
Well this is just great, now we are not even metioning the fact that smokers are being singled out to pay for National health care. Why not a gasoline tax?
Foul language!
Vfor911: Gas tax? How many kids do you have? Are they old enough to sign up for military service? THERE’S your gas tax.
Would CommonDreams provide a link the roll call vote, please
Galen,
I do not understand. If my child is old enough for military service there’s my gas tax? Please explain. Are you against a gas tax?
Ditto, Doug Lago…
I am 59, a Viet Nam Veteran, and sometimes Social Activist and so profoundly disgusted with MY country that I can barely speak about it anymore without flying into a Rage. Frankly, I give up! I am 3/4 extracted from the System now - will spend my time and $$$ extracting the rest of the way. Good Riddance USA and all you stand for.
We the People Inc. could beat corporations at their own game.
Vfor911: The deaths of your childern in the meatgrinder of the Middle East serving as instruments of American agression will be the tax you pay…
And yes I think there should be a gas tax. 50 cents/gallon should be about right…
It absolutely makes me sick, the way the republican party prattles on inanely, and insanely about how much they love kids.
This administration under George Bush is not child-friendly; when it comes to children-both in the US and everywhere else-this is the most hostile administration the United States has ever seen. Downright hostile.
Galen,
Sweet Mythical Jesus! Are you suggesting that my child should die in the Middle East because I am tired of my cigarettes being taxed? Why? What did I or my child do to deserve that?
greatbear215,
You want hostile. See Galen October 19th, 2007 3:52 pm
Vfor911: I have no desire to see your children die. Or any others. You want to see waht suffering looks like, look up Cindy Sheehan. Her son WAS killed in that insane meatgrinder.
It is time we all got off the petroleum fun ride. No demand for oil, no wars for oil. Simple to say, not so simple to do. Unfortunatly the world is being held hostage by a handful of madmen. Madmen who have no compunctions about sacrificing their own citizens to create a pretext for oppression (gee, if you guess that I think 9/11 was an inside job, and that Putin used his old KGB ties to forment unrest in Russia… you’re right).
Bushco will send as many American youngsters as it takes to keep the pipelines of that black poison flowing. If that means he starts drafting them right out of highschool, he will. After all, they’re not HIS kids.
Bush is quite happy to see the illeducated, ignorant, poverty-striken underclass mowed down in a hail of carbomb shrapnel, just as long as he and his oil-patch buddies make a tidy (obscene) profit.
Galen,
Then why the previous rant? I am for health care, I just don’t want to be singled out to pay for it. I am already paying over half of my cigarette bill to taxes.
Why didn’t you just agree that the tax should come from gas and not cigarettes?
BTW, I was part of a small contingent in my city that held a vigil with/for Cindy.
Vfor911: My apologies if I offended.
I don’t think cigarettes should be taxed. Banned, yes. Cigarettes were the direct cause of the deaths of my godmother and uncle personally, and thousands of others every year nation wide. No other product is as poisonous, killing the very people who buy it, yet has no regulations or penalties applied for how toxic it is. Cigarettes are the only product I know of that REUIRES the death of it’s consumer to provide space for the next one.
As for paying for healthcare, good gods, why else would you have taxes? Or Schools? The money has to come from some place. And the corporations have been wriggling out of their tax bills for years, thanks to their pet politicians.
ANYTHING that places an onerous burden on the populations health should be taxed. Gas, carbon dioxide, polyvinyl chloride (PVC), cigarettes, alcohol, cars, guns… anything that is detrimental to the health of others SHOULD be taxes exorbitantly. It would be an incentive to do without. And the world would be a better, healthier place for it.
If I rant it’s beacuse I am tired of the corporate criminals and their political lackeys gettting off scott free when they abuse the population, then turn around and kick us when we try to use the very laws that are supposed to protect us.
Galen,
Apology accepted.
Was the world a better place during prohibition?
I am not burdening anyone. I have health insurance, which really stinks. You pay without fail for 10+ years and when its time for the insurance company to pay up, they screw you.
My understanding is that over 90 percent of the population wants national health care. Make it voluntary. But, make it 100%. Mine is supposed to be, but its not. They decide what they are going to pay and what not.
Vfor911: That’s one of the reasons I’m a proud Canadian.
No, the world was not a better place during prohibition. Agreed. But without the taxation of the liquor, and the control if it’s production and importation, what sprang up in it’s place?
Taxation is a nessesary evil. Without it, no roads, no schools, no healthcare.
And 100% national healthcare is possible WITHOUT causing catastrophic losses to the corporations, which is their line as I understand it. England has (or had) universal healthcare. So does Sweden. So does most of Europe. But the argument from the right wing is that socialised medicine is the start of creeping socialist government… and the fascists can’t have that now, can they?
Galen,
Are there many mosquitos in Canada?
So, you Don’t think cigarettes should be banned? I don’t quite follow. What sprang up in what’s place?
Evil is not necessary. Involuntary taxes are not necessary.
All government is “socialistic”. That is one of the quirks of the US (all states?) system. So called conservatives operating in what is a liberal environment. All government is liberal.
Think if you can of a time when there was no government. Then someone came along and said “Lets make a system where a small body of individuals can take taxes from everybody for the “greater good”.” The conservative would balk. I would have been among them.
Vfor911: *chuckle* Mosquitos? Yup.
And I do think cigarettes should be banned.
Two things in life are inevitable. Death. And Taxes. taxes are as old as the capitalist animal. If you have portable waelth, you have taxes. Better if they are used for the common good, instead of the enrichment of the elite.
There is a difference beteen ’socialistic’ and ’socialist’. And I must disagree with you that the US government is liberal. Anything but, in my opinion. Would a ‘liberal’ government snatch a citizen from another country to take him to a third country for two years of torture? As Maher Arar. Would a ‘liberal’ country enact draconian laws against a common MILD euphoric at the behest of the pulp and paper industry? (I’m referring to hemp aka: marajuana) Would a ‘liberal’ government enact sweeping legislation that allowed untold, unchecked broad powers of surveillance, interogation, mail tampering…the list goes on, but basicly the ‘Patriot Act’?
To me, conservatives are the ones who want to return to a mythical time of the ‘good old days’, when men were obeyed, Christ was the ONLY truth, minorities ‘knew their place’ and women were belived to be incapable of thought, emotion or pleasure.
Galen,
Touché (for the most part).
To be contiunued.
Doug Lago October 19th, 2007 12:49 pm
“I’m 42 and have never, EVER been so profoundly disgusted with my own country.”
Many of us share the same profound disgust, Doug. And people from other countries are also disgusted with the U.S. since Bush took charge.
We need the names of every representative who voted to uphold the veto.
We should also demand that Congress, the president, and anyone else who is entitled, voluntarily recuse themselves from benefits they receive under their US socialized medical plan. Their plan is free to them and has no exclusions or limits. If all of us Americans can’t have it, then neither should they.
I am not saying anything new to the folks on this thread,but i need to vent.the folks who pay the freight for both of the travesties we call political parties don’t want to subsidize the health care for working class people-never mind that this legislation was largely crafted by repub senator grassly.when the folks in the foothills of middle america get jammed on health care,or anything else,they must fall,and their assets must be liquidated to pay their debts.senseless class warfare,defying everthing we know about economics,political science,and flying in the face of logic.this needs a redo.peace.
Galen,
Cigarettes should not be banned. You know that. Treatment and prevention are far more effective than forceful measures.
I am already being taxed for the prevention by my State. Possibly treatment, if not, it should be at the rate I am paying.
Bush may be a complete disaster, but, he is right on this, if for the wrong reasons.
Vfor911: While I could dream that cigarettes would be banned , I know it is a dream that will never come true. Too much big money in it. But I can resent that which killed my godmother and uncle. And is killing my father. All were or are smokers.
As for Bush being a disaster, but being right on this ONE issue… look at it this way. Bush is trying to beat the ‘terrorists’. To do so he orders the destruction of an entire city to kill one enemy soldier. Thousands of innocent men, women, and children die. As does the -one- enemy soldier he was after.
Does that small victory, the death of that -one- enemy soldier absolve him of all the deaths of the innocents?
Galen,
There are too many things we could ban. If I may, what you dream is a pipe dream. Sorry. My mother never drank and never smoked and she died of cancer. I have been drinking and smoking since I was 16. I am now her age when she died, 45+. I hardly ever go to the doctor, I rarely get sick. Ain’t like a _____.
We are in agreement on the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. Both were unlawful uses of force, to put it mildly. As I said above, a disaster: noun 1 a sudden accident or a natural catastrophe that causes great damage or loss of life.
We are getting off track. I said Bush was right on this one issue, IF for the wrong reasons. The new tax against smokers is the issue of this article. At least it should be.
It bears repeating since it went unaddressed: I am already being taxed for the prevention by my State. Possibly treatment, if not, I should be at the rate I am paying.
Therefore, the Feds have no authority to tax me again. In fact, Constitutionally, the States should be responsible for health care, if enough people agree, which apparently, we do have enough.
As my departed most senior engineer colleague would say. . .Follow?
Above should be: Ain’t life a _____.
I would try to edit the above but it has given me a hard time for the last 5 tries.
Vfor911: I agree that taxation needs to be overhauled. Drasticly. How it could be done, that I am willing to discuss.
Taxing people twice on the same item is usurous. As happens here, when we buy anything or pay for a service, we have to pay both a provincial and federal tax.
Can we agree that the various corporations are long overdue to pay their fair share?
G: Bear with me, my analysis is a work in progress.
I have already stated above, the States should be in charge of taxing for health care. That way, if they screw up, I can just go to the State Capital and raise hell instead of having to go to DC. The founders of the US, while far from perfect, wanted limited central government. Side note: Jefferson didn’t even sign the Constitution, he was in France at the time.
I am not against a cigarette tax per se, I am against it going to benefit individuals other than those effected by smoking. A tobacco tax is a vice tax. Tobacco does harm. The tax should go to those directly harmed by the tobacco. . .in the form of health care.
Gasoline is also harmful. Perhaps even more harmful than tobacco. Everyone drives. Everyone is putting smoke into the air. It follows that a gas tax should be used for health care. Again, the States should be collecting the tax. Not the Feds.
As for the Corporations, our fellow citizens, take away their equal status to individual citizens. We are all sovereign individuals. Corporations are a creation of government. They were not born. So, yes, they should pay for the “service” provided by government.
BTW, you can call me V.
I am angry and heartsick about this terrible blow to innocent children. And it was only the latest. Innocent children die in Iraq and New Orleans, thanks to the heartlessness of our government.
What are you all doing, wasting your time & energy arguing about whether cigarettes should be banned or not? Quit it!
As for taxation, let’s empty out the overstocked pockets of the ultra-rich.
I am surprised no one thought of this before.
At least the spread of disease is eeo when it comes to finding a host.
I find it insane they will allow anyone to enter the country without a health check.
Leaving people uninsured puts us right beside a 3rd world ghetto.
Health care is unaffordable and I refuse to pay excessive costs so the rich can ride for free.
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall - think of it, always.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
My Republican Congressman from New Jersey, Rodney Frelinghuysen, voted against SCHIP.
Here is the roll call vote:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll982.xml
If your Representative supported this veto write letters to your local newspaper, pass out literature, whatever i takes to grill them on this.
We can waste $200 Billion to kill a million people in Iraq and we cannot provide for the health of our children???
Linker,
The topic of conversation should be: the new tobacco tax. Not the disaster of a president we have. Not should we ban cigarettes. The headline should read: House Sustains President’s Veto on New Federal Tobacco Tax.
Nevertheless. . .
I stated above that corporations should pay for the “service” provided by the government. Whatever amount is reasonable. To “empty out” the overstocked pockets of the ultra-rich seems a little drastic. Of course, many belong in prison. Release some pot smokers and replace them with the PNAC crew.
V: Oooo… now theres a thought. Pot smokers out, death merchants in. I like it!
orbit7er,
Rodney’s excuse was lame. It doesn’t change the fact that its the wrong way to tax. New Jersey is number one in cigarette tax! Where is all the money going? That would be 206 dollars a month in my household, before the addition of the Federal Tax. My insurance doesn’t cost that much. Should a smoker pay more to someone else than he does for his own family?
Health care by gov’t for children is a horror that must not be allowed to continue; health care by gov’t for rich Congressmen and women is a glory only surpassed by God’s Kingdom and should be allowed to continue.
Taxing cigarettes, booze, and gasoline are better than taxing modest property and low income.
Helping children receive health care through a government program will introduce a socialist cancer that will eat away at our American values.
A slippery slope indeed. Preserve American and prevent children from receiving medical care now! “God bless our fine country.”
Send Rep. Stark and message supporting his comments, he needs to know we appreciate him!
http://www.house.gov/stark/contact/index.htm
This guy gets my hero of the month award!
Let us not forget in this dance of death between Bush and Congress when it comes time to vote for any politician that the Republicans give Bush the first string of support and then there are those Democrats that do too. The list of outrageous deeds of the Republicans and self-serving Democrats is long. And they cannot hide from us.
Intelligence exists among the poor, the ethnic, and all the otherwise disenfranchised. It is important for us to change the anatomy of Congress.
Because of its political structure, this country can only sustain a two-party system and the other peripheral parties such as the Greens, Libertarians, etc., would only have traction under a parliamentarian structured government. Therefore the minor parties can only have effect by pointing out problems, but they cannot win big elections. Their points are crucial, but nevertheless one of the two major parties is going to win the presidency. That is why we have to force a candidate to the top and into the limelight who is for the people. We the people are not in agreement on many issues ourselves. So what is the best course? How do we satisfy the will of the many over the greed of the few?
orbit7er, and Chunga’s Revenge, October 20th, each gave a very good idea. Surely there are more out there. My suggestion is to stay with the party that generally and most closely supports your own positions, whatever those might be. They are rarely going to completely fulfill your precise list. If you are a bigot and greedy you will side with one party, if you are social minded and humane, you will side with the other party. But if you don’t vote, you forfeit your voice and are forced to be satisfied with whatever you get.
I’ve been through this conversation before with puffin, Galen. Smokers feel singled out and persecuted, and many are vehemently against paying a higher cigarette tax for SCHIP. Actually, I did a little leg work and learned that this battle cry against using cigarettes was led by big tobacco–surprise, surprise. I at least think all cigarette ADVERTISING should be banned, not just TV advertising.
That is beside the point, though, if we are truly for the SCHIP program. No offense Vfor911, but the let the smokers choke on cheaper cigarettes, and let’s move on to another source of funding. The program is what’s most important, if it takes higher gas prices, I’m also for that.
Remember, though, that higher gas prices will raise the price on almost EVERYTHING that is transported to the stores, that means food, and other necessities, so ALL lower income people will be hit harder in MULTIPLE ways, not just the smoking poor. On the other hand, at least they get something in return for it.
One more word to smokers: by smoking you give your tacit support to the promotion of cigarette smoking whether you mean to or not (what do you think Big Tobacco is using much of the profit for?), and your insistence on your “right to smoke” without interference or additional taxation really shows you are addicted and afraid that that addiction will force you pay more. Phillip Morris, as well as other tobacco companies, are no doubt more than happy to have you carry the banner in their defense; they count on your allegiance and addiction to their product; in fact, they even manipulate the nicotine content in cigarettes to keep you hooked. And as long as your addiction controls you, they do.
If you think SCHIP is a worthy program, support it! Never mind the smokers who oppose it, and don’t let them determine the direction of this debate. They can always vote for politicians who support their position.
The topic here is children’s health care. It is not a question of smoking. I am a smoker and I support the program and was outraged that the veto could not be overridden.
The health care system in this country is a disaster. Ever since Reagan got rid of the non-profit insurance and hospitals, costs have been increasing. Big Pharma is making a fortune off of us.
If you want to know who has influence on the government, go to:
http://www.opensecrets.org/
It has information by politician, party, and special interest groups.
The reason that people can’t afford health care or insurance is that money is concentrated in the top 10%. The rest of us have little. Go to:
http://www.inequality.org/
and click on “By the Numbers”. Look at the pie charts for wealth distribution.
This has little to do with smoking or not smoking. On that topic, note that obesity now contributes as much to bad health as smoking. Are you going to tax people who are obese? Are you going to advocate taxes on soft drinks and candy? The problem here is the skewed distribution of wealth and policies that are destroying access to good health care.
This has little to do with smoking or not smoking. On that topic, note that obesity now contributes as much to bad health as smoking. Are you going to tax people who are obese? Are you going to advocate taxes on soft drinks and candy? The problem here is the skewed distribution of wealth and policies that are destroying access to good health care.
–The fact is that smokers have made it an issue, being against the program because it means increased cigarette taxes. Agreed, the health care system is in a mess and we need national health care. Sure, I say, tax soft drinks, sugary snacks, why not? I do eat them too, but have no problem paying more, especially if it will provide access to the dental and health care that I’m likely to need more of because of that consumption. If we want national health care, Ruth, it still has to be paid for, unless you think the money will flow from heaven. But in the meantime, for God’s sake, take care of the children; they have no choice in the matter.
Now, my question is to you: what are YOU willing to pay more for to get it? Gas, income tax, cigarettes, soft drinks–all of the above, none of the above?
If we are not willing to pay something ourselves, we are really not for this or any other health care program, and it will not pass under any circumstances. Taxing items (I’m not saying exclusively) that create a need for health care seems logical to me. Why should they be completely off the table? It’s not a matter of “sin” but common sense, really. But, hey, if you’re not willing to pay for something, then you do not really support it. It’s like saying I’m for the war in Iraq as long as my child doesn’t have to go fight. PFFFTT!
So do you support an expansion of SCHIP and, if so, how do you think it SHOULD be funded? THAT is the real issue here. All else is irrelevant.
chessgames56,
Your research didn’t find that I was against this from the start. I didn’t wait for tobacco companies to let me know it was affecting my pocket and not the general population whom it is benefiting.
Look, I have already stated that I am not against a tobacco tax per se, I am against being heavily taxed by my State and then having the Feds come in and tax me even more.
Vote for politicians that support my position? Are there any out there. My Senators and Reps are all Republicans. I didn’t vote for any of them.
RuthK,
What State do you live in. They are not all the same. Some have very low cigarette tax. Should I have to pack up and move to that State?
This does have everything to do with a new tobacco tax. But, you bring up a good point, how about a fast food tax?
In general, lets say all smokers quit, where would the government get the funds?
BTW, I quit for over two years before. The last time I started up again was because, you are going to love this, Bush got “re” elected. I said to myself, what is there to live for?
Smokers are 20 percent of the population. Why should 20 percent pay for something that benefits all.
Here is something funny. One of the last taxes my State imposed actually stated in the bill that this new tax benefits all. If it benefits all, why have 20 percent pay for it? And it only passed 54 to 46.
Almost forgot, if we want a new tax for health care, lets legalize cannabis and tax it. I would be proud to support health care in such a pleasant way. I am fairly certain others would join me.
You should move to to North Carolina then, V. :o) There was a study done and it determined that NC has more teens starting smoking than in states where cigs are more heavily taxed (more expensive). If the pool of smokers dwindles, so do the health-related effects that are associated with it. Also, I have no problem with other things being taxed that I use, including gas, to support SCHIP, though I think that increasing the gas or food tax (with the possible exception of tax on certain items) would be the most regressive, and should not be the first to be considered. Maybe I’m wrong but the way I look at it is that I can choose not to smoke or buy less junk food, but I cannot do that with gas or other staples, though I’m saying they should be completely left out of the picture. I would ask this though: if you had children and SCHIP was the only way you could get them health coverage, would you still be against the plan?
chessgames56, I am not against health care for children, moreover, I am for health care for everyone. I am against 20 percent of the population paying for it.
If everyone that voted in the last pres election contributed, it would be 24 dollars a month for one year to pay the 35 billion.
With the SCHIP tobacco tax, I will be paying 52 dollars EXTRA each month. I am already being taxed to the tune of 194 dollars a month, which is more than my health insurance payment.
And thus you have won, V. The expansion of SCHIP has been defeated, and your cigarettes safe–for now. Maybe they will used for a tax increase for more bombs, instead. By the way from your response, I’m guessing you do not have any children of your own who need health insurance, am I wrong?
chessgames56, Have I won? My cigarettes are not safe and they are already being taxed. I fear you are missing my point. I already stated I have health insurance and I have one child who will soon lose the insurance once he finishes college. I would be willing to pay what I am paying now for health insurance and then some for Universal Health Care, in a heartbeat. I am willing to pay a cigarette tax, not over half of my cigarette dollar as I am already doing. Follow?
Almost forgot, I would have to drink 16 GALLONS of beer to match the tax of one pack of smokes. WTF?
My cigarettes are not safe and they are already being taxed. I am willing to pay a cigarette tax, not over half of my cigarette dollar as I am already doing. Follow?
Yes, V, I read you loud and clear.
My Repub. congressman Brian Bilbray also voted against the bill. I had called his office the day before and voiced my opinion and his secretary Mark was very abusive and argumentative. I mentioned that we won’t forget his vote when Bilbray comes up for election again(not soon enough for me).
As Siouxrose and others have pointed out only an inward “spiritual” revolution will save mankind. Whether we are polluting consciously or unconsciously, the result is same: more pollution. We all must quit blaming each other and try to understand what we are doing or not doing to contribute to the status quo. Expecting a wolf to behave like a lamb is unrealistic, to say the least. Are we being wolves in our personal lives? That is where we must begin. Karma is often in the present moment. We cannot harm another without first having harmed ourselves. And the world we help create will–sooner or later–have consequences for us as well. You can bank on that. If you preach social responsibility while practicing social Darwinism, what do you think you will get?
To: chessgames
Obviously, you didn’t read my message. Smokers, as far as I know, have not made an issue of this. Please tell me where you heard this. Also, in my message I said that I was angry that the veto was not overridden.
Also, I certainly don’t believe that money falls from heaven and I do believe that children should be cared for. My objections were that with our wealth concentrated into the wealthiest 10% of the population and with a for-profit health industry, we need some other changes.
We have already had an increase in state tax on cigarettes which I have not complained about. You ask: “Now, my question is to you: what are YOU willing to pay more for to get it? Gas, income tax, cigarettes, soft drinks–all of the above, none of the above?”
Yes, I will pay the additional tax on cigarettes. I said that before. I don’t use soft drinks or candy, so that doesn’t affect me. Ask difficult as it will be, we need a tax on gas because we’re running out of it. Emissions also contribute to climate change. That will do in all of us.
Fair enough, Ruth. I don’t smoke but do eat my share of junk food–yummy. :o) Don’t mind it being taxed, even if means I have to eat less of it (no doubt some will claim we’re discriminating unfairly against Halloween! ha ha). And yes, imbalance is the present rule of our society: we are being gouged out the nose for health care. Moreover, any program like SCHIP is likely to be “unfair” to somebody. My property taxes, for example, go toward paying for public education whether I have any children in school or not.
So it really comes down to this: do we support this bill, or do we not? If we do not, it does not matter whether we do so on an ideological or funding basis because the result is the same, meaning children may go without health coverage. Again, we must all follow our consciences in this regard, but it is really not a debate about the evils of smoking, junk food, or gasoline–debating such things only obfuscates the issue.
Please tell me where you heard this.
This is what I found it, Ruth:
http://texasimpact.org/phillipmorrisschip07
Now, how do you move on from here?
As I have said in two messages so far. Yes, I support the bill. Can’t you read? I am angry that the veto was not overridden. I also said that. So what is your point?
I also said in the previous message that the issue was not smoking but health care. So, what are you arguing about?
Nothing, Ruth, and no, I can only write. :o) I’d rather not discuss this anymore, either, as I have made my point(s). Sorry if you deemed that my last response was unnessary and not an appropriate one to yours. I wasn’t as astute in reading your post and guaging your meaning as I should have been. It certainly won’t happen again.
“Why do you hate children?” This is a question I have posed to the representative who voted to uphold the veto. “This is a bill that would have expanded health care coverage to children of the working class — children whose parents earn too much to qualify for Medicaid, but who don’t earn enough to afford health insurance. It is not welfare for the indigent and unemployed, and it’s not welfare for the wealthy. This bill is aimed straight at middle America. The middle America that is working hard, every day and just not quite able to cover the escalating cost of health insurance. Those of you who voted to deny these benefits to the young and vulnerable have mostly been all too willing to vote to fund the Iraq war. As Speaker Pelosi said, “only four days” of Iraq war dollars would fund S-Chip for a year. Your vote to uphold the veto of that heartless president is a disgrace. You do not deserve to be re-elected, as you have proven that you do not serve your constituents.”
Now citizens of this country should put these heartless swine out of work. In addition, citizens of this country should be informed about the socialized medical policy that these very members of congress enjoy. It’s a policy without compare in the private sector. It’s a policy that we as citizens should cancel for all of them. When Congress and the president have to shop for and pay for health insurance like their constituents do, they might develop some common sense and empathy.
How about that Rep Stark, He’s got the right wing noise machine going crazy, I love it. Need more of same, hope their circuits overload.
this is all very simple, they need all the money they can muster to pay for the permanent ocupation of iraq. when the war first started i believed then, as i do now, that we will all be dead by the time america leaves. 6,000,000 children, are just more collateral damage. they really don’t give a shit what the people think. i am so thankful i live in canada. our children are top priority. we have a social concience. i could care less what rush limbaugh, the voice of america calls it. i dont care what it costs to keep our people healthy, and cared for. they can tax the shit out of me, if thats what it takes. in the end, the bottom line is your health. all the money in the world, means nothing without it.
The legislators who won’t support SCHIP should be grabbed by the scruff of their necks, and thrown out of office.
I have always considered myself a law-abiding person; but enough is enough! They can vote to give the moron in the White House a fortune for his God-forsaken war, another fortune for a murderous band of mercenaries guilty as hell of War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity, but they can’t give our children healthcare?
I’ve had it. They ought to be grabbed by the scruff of their necks and thrown out of office! These people need a wakeup call!
even saddam hussein gave health care to children.
Last word. Since SCHIP is apparently popular with the people, why did congress pick on 20 percent of the population?