Iraq Forever?Last week’s intense focus on whether the surge was working obscured the real Bush agenda — a long-term U.S. presence in Iraq.

Having lost the battle over the surge, Democrats in the Senate are back to an incrementalist approach to the war. After Bush endorsed General David Petraeus’s plan to return to pre-surge combat strength of about 130,000 troops in Iraq by the end of July, the Democrats mobilized.

Senator Jim Webb, the Vietnam veteran who won his Virginia seat last year on an antiwar platform, will push forward for a third time with his bill mandating that troops serving in Iraq remain at home for at least an equivalent amount of time as their deployments. The bill is a two-fer: Not only does it take a large burden off the Army’s shoulders, but it would, in practice, constrain the Pentagon’s ability to keep troop strength in Iraq at Petraeus’ desired levels. Unsurprisingly, Defense Secretary Bob Gates replied on Friday that Webb’s “well-intentioned” bill would create problems for the next year’s meticulously planned deployment calendar — and in any event, he’d prefer to drop down to 100,000 troops in Iraq by the end of 2008.

If the current debate between Webb and Gates over force postures remains on those terms, it’ll be a sober, mature and respectful accounting between serious defense professionals. It may well result in a more sensible deployment schedule for active-duty Army soldiers in Iraq, who now face an unprecedented “deployment-to-dwell” ratio of 15 months in Iraq to 12 months at home. And it will obscure the starkest fact to emerge from last week’s Petraeus/Crocker hearings: The U.S. will remain in Iraq, in some capacity, forever.

One of President Bush’s most under-appreciated maneuvers of 2007 was his recasting of the debate over the war into a debate over the surge. Commentators endlessly interpreted the surge as a “last chance” for the war to succeed — something the Bush administration, crucially, never promised. But as a result of this misperception, endless inquiry over the last several months has focused on whether the surge has succeeded on its own terms: whether it pacified Baghdad; whether it deserves credit for the Sunni tribal shift against al-Qaeda; whether it nurtured a glacial sectarian reconciliation. It’s a pattern of analysis that rests on a simple proposition: Since the surge is the last chance for the war to succeed, if it has failed, then the war must be brought to an end.

That proposition is false. Whatever the surge’s virtues, (is a reduction in sectarian violence in Baghdad the result of better U.S. strategy or the fruit of a victorious Shiite strategy to cleanse Baghdad of Sunnis?) it has had a clear political benefit for the president, turning criticism of the war into criticism of a slice of the war. General Petraeus made it clear last week that the infusion of troops into Baghdad was what allowed him to emphasize a strategy of population protection that doesn’t apply in less-troop dense areas of Iraq, so when troop strength returns to 2006 levels, the strategy will accordingly shift. Those who criticize Petraeus because they want to stop the war will have gained little more ground than they occupied in December 2006.

What will the White House have gained? For one thing, an enduring presence in Iraq. In his speech, Bush said that “Iraqi leaders” — whom he meant, he left unstated — have “asked for an enduring relationship with America” extending “beyond my presidency.” What was once a commitment to remain in Iraq “as long as necessary, and not one day more” is now an admission that “we are ready to begin building that [enduring] relationship.”

No one should be surprised. America tends not to invest nearly a trillion dollars and thousands of lives in places it means to leave. Bush’s comments have precedent in Gates’ June remarks that Korea was a better parallel for Iraq than Vietnam — Korea, of course, being a place where U.S. troops have guaranteed stability for half a century. Finally, when General Petraeus outlined his plan for troop reductions in Congress last week, its final phase stopped with five U.S. brigades, a strength of about 20,000 to 25,000 troops, still in Iraq. Petraeus didn’t box himself in with any timeline by which the United States will reach that reduced presence, but his chart extends outward, indefinitely. Behold: the enduring relationship. Never mind that the latest BBC/ABC/NHK poll of Iraqis found a statistically insignificant number who want American troops never to leave.

If there’s one single characteristic that defines the coming U.S.-Iraq relationship, it’s that it’s emerging in the complete absence of debate. Perhaps as a testimony to her inflated reputation, no one in Congress is bothering to ask Secretary of State Condoleezza what the administration wants the U.S.’s diplomatic and military commitment to Iraq to be by January 2009. It’s true that the U.S. has enduring interests in Iraq, which largely boil down to counterterrorism and, as Alan Greenspan has helpfully conceded, oil. And not even the most hardcore war opponents propose, say, cutting diplomatic or economic ties with Baghdad, so some relationship with Iraq is destined to endure. But, true to form, there’s a complete absence of guidance emerging from the administration about what it wants from a long-term commitment to Iraq. (Leave aside for a moment the likelihood that Iraq has yet to resemble practically anything that the Bush administration has ever planned.)

This week, the Senate will take up defense policy once again, and once again, Webb’s worthy amendment will go up for a vote. Democratic leader Harry Reid has abandoned previous pledges to put forward a timeline for withdrawal from Iraq, knowing that the Senate doesn’t have the 67 votes, and in the hope that bills like Webb’s can attract the GOP support necessary to stop the war incrementally.

It may well be a sensible approach. But while Reid and the Democrats have little option but to think in terms of the next political skirmish over the war, the Bush administration, completely in private, is sketching out a commitment to Iraq intended to last for decades. Bush got his way on the surge largely due to an unrecognized myopia by his opponents. If the trend continues, he stands a good chance of turning a catastrophic war into an open-ended commitment that his successors will have a hard time limiting.

Spencer Ackerman is a Prospect senior correspondent and a reporter-blogger for Talking Points Memo.

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17 Comments so far

JConrad September 19th, 2007 1:17 pm

What planet is this media clown living on !

” It’s true that the U.S. has enduring interests in Iraq, which largely boil down to counterterrorism and, as Alan Greenspan has helpfully conceded, oil.”

Complicit American media cretins fed the nation WMD lies to start the Iraq war crimes of the century. And here is one, four years into the occupation, who is still repeating the neocon Big Oil military industrial lies about Iraq as a center of “terrorism.”

Wake up Ackerman ! You are living in a nation of imperial war criminals who export “terror” and your writing assumes their lies are true, thus contributing to crimes against humanity.

Anyone who is not speaking out in clear terms about America’s corporate wars of aggression is as complicit as those who remained silent during the Nazi regime.

Future.me September 19th, 2007 4:22 pm

The time has come. You know it, I know, the world knows it. Civil war will happen here, The revolution will be in our lifetime. And who side will we choose?

These are the moments that our people will talk about in books after our bones have long been buried in the sands of time.

These will be the moments in which we set ourselves apart from the sheep, and we stand. We stand for what is rightfully ours.

The war has begun, the trumpets have been blown.

We are brothers and sisters!!

This is our fight. There is only, us and the enemey.

There is no black, white, red, or yellow.

There are only the freemen and freewomen.

And then there are the oppressors.

US and them. There lives and ours.

We are one unit, we are one people. Feed your brother and your brother will feed you.

Starve for your brother and he will do the same.

Give drink to your brother, and he will quench your thirst.

Fight not amongest ourselves, but let us unite in what will be the defining moments of our lives.

There is no rich or poor. Only us and them.

No strong men and weak men. Only us and them.

Turn the other cheek for your brother but not for the enemy.

Turn the other cheek for your sister but not for the enemy.

I ask you not, as a leader of men, but as a brother in arms, a brother in spirit, a brother in pain. A brother in sacrifice and a brother to those that wish to remain free.

I ask you in this time of our greatest need for cohesiveness and bonds built with one goal.

And that goal is maintaining freedom.

Providing Freedom for our brothers and sisters. Maintaining what was given to us by those that died.

And what is being taken away from us by those that kill.

We are blind, but only have to open our eyes to see what we have been missing.

We are deaf and mute, but only need to focus our minds to hear the call, and open our mouths to speak the words that will save us from our selves.

We are not going to take it any more.

Say it to yourself, when you lay your head on your pillow.

Say it to yourself when you wake.

Say it to those you love.

Say it to those you hate.

For it is only us and them.

Say that you will not let your brothers starve alone, say you will not let your brothers go with out drink alone.

We are one people, we are one movement.

We are the revolution.

~Future~

Siouxrose September 19th, 2007 4:58 pm

FUTURE: Astrologically speaking, portents of an enormous worldwide struggle to attain the ideal you lyrically express are maturing with a climax–in the way of a true “of, for and by the people” unified force–likely at the end of 2020 AD. The next 7 years, to the extent “As above, so below” remains an inviolate truth show tribulation…. with LIBRA a strong component, justice issues are part of the cosmic challenge we already so evidently face on earth. We have not had Pluto in Capricorn–the sign of Richard Nixon, Carl Rove and J Edgar Hoover in 248 years… all the inroads into the surveillance society, the politics of fear, the use of “enemies” to eviscerate liberties, and most tragically of all, a technological treasurehouse of ways and means to put down dissent are in place BEFORE this cycle gets underway. I feel like the viewer of a Broadway Play who can see through the gossamer curtain as the stagehands change the scenery to prepare for the next opening act. NOT every nation will feel the labor pains to the same extent, but a great many fall into the “cardinal” signs which are the ones that are cosmically under the gun, so to speak. Perhaps some of us will get to practice what Blake understood about beholding eternity in an hour and the world in a grain of sand, preferably not from some Dostoyevsky-like prison scene designed for the intelligentsia.

rmirman September 19th, 2007 5:18 pm

Bush’s aim is not a permanent presence since he cannot affect what happens after next January. It is a presence until then so he can blame his successor, who will have to end the war, for his catastrophe. There is no rationale for us being there. If the Democrats, who are totally incompetent, were yelling that his whole policy would collapse. For detailed discussion and suggestions see
randomabsurdities.wordpress.com

Meredoo September 19th, 2007 5:50 pm

Maybe we should just get it over with and start openly colonizing other countries. it wouldn’t be right, but at least we’d be honest about what we were doing! We could make Iraq the 51st state, seeing as we are going to be trying to control it forever anyway!

curmudgeon99 September 19th, 2007 7:12 pm

When the bombs start falling on Iran, I wonder how Pelosi, Logren, Reid and the other Dems who refused to impeach Cheney and Bush will sleep at night?

Meredoo - Israel is already the 51st state

visual_imagry September 19th, 2007 8:22 pm

Let me start be responding to the claims that the revolution is comming in the near future. I have to be honest. I don’t believe that there is any one pivatol moment that the revolution will happen. People have throughout history preached that the revolution was right around the corner, and more often then not they’ve been wrong. If you look at history you can see how all of humanity is just one ever lasting revolution. Any type of aggression and oppression human kind has engaged in over the years has slowly come to have been seen as wrong. Of course I cannot deny that we only seem to replace our old justifications for new ones, thus allowing us to continue, but ultimately those justifications will also become obsolete. For example it use to be ok to aggress for plunder. There didn’t have to be a justification. When that stopped being ok, religios differences were used to justify war. As was the case with the Crusades and the European Colonization. Today, being as this to is no longer morally acceptable, we use ideological justification. We’re not aggressing…we’re bringing democracy to iraq. The point i’m trying to make is that this war, though it is undoubtedly a war of aggression (more so then Vietnam ever was) It doesn’t stand out as in any particular way from any other war of aggression that has ever happened. So to say that this era in in our history will result in a revolution i don’t think is very logical.

The other thing I don’t entirly agree with is JConrad’s claim about counter terrorism. I’m a firm believer in the idea that no one likes to think of themselves as bad, even Dick Cheney. And becuase I said we view any regime that aggresses for the simple sake of aggressing as evil, the Bush administration was at a delema when it decided to invade in 2003. Did they want that oil? Absolutely. But justification was necessary to stroke there egos so that they were able to not see themselves as the aggressor. It wasn’t that they intentionally lied about counterterrorism, it was that they themselves believed that rhetoric so they could continue to feel alright with themselves.

Kernel September 19th, 2007 11:25 pm

SIOUXROSE____You are back just in time!! I have been getting ready for the rapture and armagedden as it appeared all was lost. Now I see that we have seven more years ahead yet, thanks to your astrology interpretation, so am now figuring on how best to survive a little longer. Thanks for the info, as I wanted to see what our national debt would be in a few years___ nine trillion now and counting. Also am curious how many billionaires we might have that do not need to help us with that. The best one, though, did we win the war on terror?

RoundAbout September 20th, 2007 12:15 am

America has become the greatest state sponsor of terrorism on Earth. It is the number one threat to the future of humanity.
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/unsanam2
When there are enough signatures I will hand deliver it to the UN myself.
PLEASE HELP!

starislon2 September 20th, 2007 1:24 am

A good chance? More like a done deal.

It was not an unrecognized myopia, most have recognized it for some time.

In short: It’s the Korean Model Stupid!!
(and has been from the get-go)

MiMiCcS September 20th, 2007 5:13 am

All governments lie to the people, we have been lied to for well over a century, maybe longer. However, the difference in the quality of the lies today is telling. At one time, they at least tried to make the lies believable to 70% of the people. Now they are satisfied with convincing 30%, and the standards are so low to convince these critters that the lies are insulting to anyone not brain dead.

Those who do not believe in Creationism, and understand that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, and know that Iraq was about the Oil, and that the official 9/11 story has serious flaws, have no representation. Those in Congress are only seeking the votes from people who can be influenced with 30 second commercials and who watch Fox or CNN as their main news source. So long as the companies who profit from war and deregulation are willing to finance their campaigns, they are willing to follow their corporate masters and get the votes of the people who are willing to buy their truth-speak.

Those Democrats running for President as Democrats would not do anything to get us out of Iraq, and we do need to stay in Iraq in some capacity.

Lets at least have an honest debate about what we can do in Iraq, regardless of if you agreed or disagreed with the war in the first place, and stop this surge and benchmark nonsense. Leaving it as it is would be disasterous, as Saudi Arabia and Iran would both take sides to an even larger extent than they have, possibly leading to a regional war. But explaining that doesn’t fit easily into a 30 second commercial.

In my opinion, we should act as a military guard against foreign intervention in Iraq, protect the borders and oil infrastructure, and provide support to the central government in the form of arms, aid and training for their forces. Thats it. We need to take a hands off approach to interfering with the affairs of a democratically elected government, and let these guys work out their differences and handle their own security, come what may. The house to house crap and street patrols for US troops has to end. We can do this mission with 50-60,000 troops which is sustainable. Also, why does our embassy need to be in Baghdad?. It needs to be relocated outside Baghdad in a secure area where we do not have to hire mercenaries to protect anyone stepping outside the Green Zone.

Once the Iraqis recognize we wont take sides they will eventually reconcile and find a way to work together. It might not be pretty, but it isn’t very pretty now, and they will get there eventually.

Again, how to get it into a 30 second commercial?. How do you do it?

In any event, remember who runs this country, the Federal Reserve Corporation which is privately owned and poorly supervised. They control the money our government needs to to run. Bush needs money, Congress authorizes the spending, but it’s money we do not have. The Treasury Department has to ask the Fed for the money, their banks print it up and borrow the money from China and OPEC, for a small fee.

Our governments decision making structure is something like this today

Fed
Military-Industrial-Media-Intelligence-Corporate Simplex
Executive Branch/Judicial Branch
AIPAC (a hybrid of some in the Fed and MIMICS focused on Israels interests)
Congress
State Government (they count the votes, or not)
The People

Not exactly what our Founding Fathers envisioned, but that’s what it is, or seems to be.

Bush is not worried about his successor. His successor will have the same bosses he has, and if you disobey the bosses, well, look what happened to JFK and Nixon. Lesson learned.

KEM PATRICK September 20th, 2007 6:26 am

When I first found Common Dreams three months ago, about 25% of the comments posted were about impeaching Cheney, and or Bush. Now in the past month, we don’t read the word “impeach” very often. I fear it is because, we all sadly realize, ___ it ain’t gonna happen. I fear we all now realize, we are either going to suffer a depression and or, bush will not allow us to depart Iraq and is going to attack Iran, _________ because he wasn’t impeached.

Perhaps we here at Common Dreams, are in a very large minority. ____ Am I wrong there, or just stupid? Well, in any case, I met Siouxrose, Coco, Rebel, Kathyodat, Aymon, Paul Smith and a whole bunch of other swell people here, It’s been fun and a real learning experience for me.

dougrambo September 20th, 2007 10:37 am

Kem Patrick: It’s true Bush and Cheney wont be impeached. We will stay in Iraq. We will invade Iran. Many more troops,Iragis and Iranians and God knows who else will die. Welcome to this great experiment called democracy. Now be a good citizen sit down at the back of the democracy bus pay your taxes and SHUT UP! (Their sentiments not mine)

dougrambo September 20th, 2007 10:52 am

Since this dumb blog wont let me edit what I just wrote. Let me add I’m not telling you to shut up our government is!
But,I think you get my point. I think 99% of our frustration with out government is our lack of being able to truly participate. Therefore, I greatly fear it will be the Bush’s and his ilk that will ultimately destroy this country,we already see it happening. And that is a true shame. We could have been such a force for good!!!

KEM PATRICK September 20th, 2007 1:45 pm

At least we are gonna get the oil DOUGRAMBO, _____ one way or another. Less oil means higher gas prices, higher gas prces means Detroit falls on their ass. Think of it!! We keep our false economy afloat and get rid of a lot of Arabs at the same time, it’s good economics,___ we all know about the “theory” of economics.

And all this time I thought Cheney was either stupid or insane, ___ silly me.

ricke November 9th, 2007 4:54 am

Well what’s very clear to me now?

The Dems demonstration of non action since the 2006 election and the power gained had me worried they were no different than the Reps because they have acted so spineless. I had become furious realizing they would not get my vote for 2008 because they did not do the one thing they could do, impeach Cheney. I have mistakenly blamed this on spinelessness but after reading countless articles on Korea as model for Iraq it all makes perfect sense now they are not spineless but completely complicent in the whole nightmare. Nothing if little will change with a Dem as president, they are just different enough in appearance to give the voters the illusion of true choice there is no choice we are going with the program whether we like it or not.

Yes I am convinced none of the Dem potentials Billory, Obama, or Edwards will change a thing in Iraq if elected not because they can’t but because they do not want to period. They are only slightly different than the Reps, all of them are effectively owned by corporate interests.
We really need to start where our country is broken, campaign reform is mandatory. Sooner or later there will be blood in American streets fighting the terrorists who run the country. I will be dead by then but within 100 yrs max its going to break into a million pieces we the people just need to be driven to a more painful bottom first.
Oh I forgot the same politicans do not protect our borders in time of such danger of attack, not to mention we are out of $$ but helping illegal imigrants with I guess $$ from China. I now lovingly refer to The White House as The Crack House.

I am saddened to think for a brief time upon Obamas appearance on the stage I thought maybe I had a person of integrity to vote for. Not, his comments about not impeaching Cheney convinced me, he is out of my book forever. One thing could have been done that the Dems did not do impeach, and they think people will vote for them for 2008 promising more change as they did before in 2006 and have not done sh….. OK what ever - I am enlightened and glad I am 51 and will miss the revolution. It will come its inevitable and unavoidable.

I going out on a limb of thought here, I wonder what others think, is this kind of criminal insanity really posible in our government?

1- Clinton does not go hit Osama (yes he had intel also- really bad guy wants to kill us) or hit him for the Cole Incident cause he is in on the whole master plan with Bush or what ever power mad freaks run the world?

2- Bush and Cheney (as Clinton) well aware of the intelligence facts let 9-11 happen to advance their agenda- get into Iraq with some kind of story that seems sellable enough to pull off their dream of maybe controlling the Middle East?

3- They don’t kill Osama at Tora Bora cause if they do the game is over - with the 9-11 guy dead they we will have a real hard time selling this Iraq sh… to the handful of political police (non corporate sponsored employees) and the public?

So now I read the story of a 50 yr. occupation and I get it (my worst fears were always spot on) there really is no difference between a Rep and a Dem as my intuition always told me anyway. But the most recent moves of the US in the last 6 yrs are so blatantly obvious and sick that it’s all grist for the painful growth of our country that after a few 100 yrs is on a crash course for internal blood shed.

Is it possible in this country to start at square one, Campaign Finance Reform or do the power mad freaks have that so impossibility nailed shut they will only wake up to a Revolution in the Street?

We really do not need any wild-eyed conspiracy theories (just a hand full of people who let bad things happen to advance their agendas) that were rampant in the last few years for the above to work flawlessly. As each new day passes any serious observer should be able to see what has been in the works for far more than one administration. Even if Denis K. seems a voice of sanity (impeach Cheney) and insanity (telling publicly he saw a UFO) he knows there is no way impeachment will happen (or if so, it’s already in the total master plan which is completely Partisan) or he is just doing PR to get up the ladder and if he gets there will deliver more of the same old crap.

They are all bought and paid for trust in any of these people is impossible. We need to start over. This was not Thomas Jefferson’s plan, we are so very lost.

The only prayer I currently see is it is likely there are a few real Patriots left by acident in some government agencies that are a few steps from taking down the current admistration and exposing the whole long term master plan, holding many past asnd present dems and Reps criminally reponsble and throwing their ass in jail.

jadelung April 21st, 2008 3:45 am

水彩
 水彩藝術
 油畫
 畫畫
 素描
 紫薇斗數
 紫薇
 姻緣
 家具
 家居

JConrad September 19th, 2007 1:17 pm

What planet is this media clown living on !

” It’s true that the U.S. has enduring interests in Iraq, which largely boil down to counterterrorism and, as Alan Greenspan has helpfully conceded, oil.”

Complicit American media cretins fed the nation WMD lies to start the Iraq war crimes of the century. And here is one, four years into the occupation, who is still repeating the neocon Big Oil military industrial lies about Iraq as a center of “terrorism.”

Wake up Ackerman ! You are living in a nation of imperial war criminals who export “terror” and your writing assumes their lies are true, thus contributing to crimes against humanity.

Anyone who is not speaking out in clear terms about America’s corporate wars of aggression is as complicit as those who remained silent during the Nazi regime.
Future.me September 19th, 2007 4:22 pm

The time has come. You know it, I know, the world knows it. Civil war will happen here, The revolution will be in our lifetime. And who side will we choose?

These are the moments that our people will talk about in books after our bones have long been buried in the sands of time.

These will be the moments in which we set ourselves apart from the sheep, and we stand. We stand for what is rightfully ours.

The war has begun, the trumpets have been blown.

We are brothers and sisters!!

This is our fight. There is only, us and the enemey.

There is no black, white, red, or yellow.

There are only the freemen and freewomen.

And then there are the oppressors.

US and them. There lives and ours.

We are one unit, we are one people. Feed your brother and your brother will feed you.

Starve for your brother and he will do the same.

Give drink to your brother, and he will quench your thirst.

Fight not amongest ourselves, but let us unite in what will be the defining moments of our lives.

There is no rich or poor. Only us and them.

No strong men and weak men. Only us and them.

Turn the other cheek for your brother but not for the enemy.

Turn the other cheek for your sister but not for the enemy.

I ask you not, as a leader of men, but as a brother in arms, a brother in spirit, a brother in pain. A brother in sacrifice and a brother to those that wish to remain free.

I ask you in this time of our greatest need for cohesiveness and bonds built with one goal.

And that goal is maintaining freedom.

Providing Freedom for our brothers and sisters. Maintaining what was given to us by those that died.

And what is being taken away from us by those that kill.

We are blind, but only have to open our eyes to see what we have been missing.

We are deaf and mute, but only need to focus our minds to hear the call, and open our mouths to speak the words that will save us from our selves.

We are not going to take it any more.

Say it to yourself, when you lay your head on your pillow.

Say it to yourself when you wake.

Say it to those you love.

Say it to those you hate.

For it is only us and them.

Say that you will not let your brothers starve alone, say you will not let your brothers go with out drink alone.

We are one people, we are one movement.

We are the revolution.

~Future~
Siouxrose September 19th, 2007 4:58 pm

FUTURE: Astrologically speaking, portents of an enormous worldwide struggle to attain the ideal you lyrically express are maturing with a climax–in the way of a true “of, for and by the people” unified force–likely at the end of 2020 AD. The next 7 years, to the extent “As above, so below” remains an inviolate truth show tribulation…. with LIBRA a strong component, justice issues are part of the cosmic challenge we already so evidently face on earth. We have not had Pluto in Capricorn–the sign of Richard Nixon, Carl Rove and J Edgar Hoover in 248 years… all the inroads into the surveillance society, the politics of fear, the use of “enemies” to eviscerate liberties, and most tragically of all, a technological treasurehouse of ways and means to put down dissent are in place BEFORE this cycle gets underway. I feel like the viewer of a Broadway Play who can see through the gossamer curtain as the stagehands change the scenery to prepare for the next opening act. NOT every nation will feel the labor pains to the same extent, but a great many fall into the “cardinal” signs which are the ones that are cosmically under the gun, so to speak. Perhaps some of us will get to practice what Blake understood about beholding eternity in an hour and the world in a grain of sand, preferably not from some Dostoyevsky-like prison scene designed for the intelligentsia.
rmirman September 19th, 2007 5:18 pm

Bush’s aim is not a permanent presence since he cannot affect what happens after next January. It is a presence until then so he can blame his successor, who will have to end the war, for his catastrophe. There is no rationale for us being there. If the Democrats, who are totally incompetent, were yelling that his whole policy would collapse. For detailed discussion and suggestions see
randomabsurdities.wordpress.com
Meredoo September 19th, 2007 5:50 pm

Maybe we should just get it over with and start openly colonizing other countries. it wouldn’t be right, but at least we’d be honest about what we were doing! We could make Iraq the 51st state, seeing as we are going to be trying to control it forever anyway!
curmudgeon99 September 19th, 2007 7:12 pm

When the bombs start falling on Iran, I wonder how Pelosi, Logren, Reid and the other Dems who refused to impeach Cheney and Bush will sleep at night?

Meredoo - Israel is already the 51st state
visual_imagry September 19th, 2007 8:22 pm

Let me start be responding to the claims that the revolution is comming in the near future. I have to be honest. I don’t believe that there is any one pivatol moment that the revolution will happen. People have throughout history preached that the revolution was right around the corner, and more often then not they’ve been wrong. If you look at history you can see how all of humanity is just one ever lasting revolution. Any type of aggression and oppression human kind has engaged in over the years has slowly come to have been seen as wrong. Of course I cannot deny that we only seem to replace our old justifications for new ones, thus allowing us to continue, but ultimately those justifications will also become obsolete. For example it use to be ok to aggress for plunder. There didn’t have to be a justification. When that stopped being ok, religios differences were used to justify war. As was the case with the Crusades and the European Colonization. Today, being as this to is no longer morally acceptable, we use ideological justification. We’re not aggressing…we’re bringing democracy to iraq. The point i’m trying to make is that this war, though it is undoubtedly a war of aggression (more so then Vietnam ever was) It doesn’t stand out as in any particular way from any other war of aggression that has ever happened. So to say that this era in in our history will result in a revolution i don’t think is very logical.

The other thing I don’t entirly agree with is JConrad’s claim about counter terrorism. I’m a firm believer in the idea that no one likes to think of themselves as bad, even Dick Cheney. And becuase I said we view any regime that aggresses for the simple sake of aggressing as evil, the Bush administration was at a delema when it decided to invade in 2003. Did they want that oil? Absolutely. But justification was necessary to stroke there egos so that they were able to not see themselves as the aggressor. It wasn’t that they intentionally lied about counterterrorism, it was that they themselves believed that rhetoric so they could continue to feel alright with themselves.
Kernel September 19th, 2007 11:25 pm

SIOUXROSE____You are back just in time!! I have been getting ready for the rapture and armagedden as it appeared all was lost. Now I see that we have seven more years ahead yet, thanks to your astrology interpretation, so am now figuring on how best to survive a little longer. Thanks for the info, as I wanted to see what our national debt would be in a few years___ nine trillion now and counting. Also am curious how many billionaires we might have that do not need to help us with that. The best one, though, did we win the war on terror?
RoundAbout September 20th, 2007 12:15 am

America has become the greatest state sponsor of terrorism on Earth. It is the number one threat to the future of humanity.
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/unsanam2
When there are enough signatures I will hand deliver it to the UN myself.
PLEASE HELP!
starislon2 September 20th, 2007 1:24 am

A good chance? More like a done deal.

It was not an unrecognized myopia, most have recognized it for some time.

In short: It’s the Korean Model Stupid!!
(and has been from the get-go)
MiMiCcS September 20th, 2007 5:13 am

All governments lie to the people, we have been lied to for well over a century, maybe longer. However, the difference in the quality of the lies today is telling. At one time, they at least tried to make the lies believable to 70% of the people. Now they are satisfied with convincing 30%, and the standards are so low to convince these critters that the lies are insulting to anyone not brain dead.

Those who do not believe in Creationism, and understand that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, and know that Iraq was about the Oil, and that the official 9/11 story has serious flaws, have no representation. Those in Congress are only seeking the votes from people who can be influenced with 30 second commercials and who watch Fox or CNN as their main news source. So long as the companies who profit from war and deregulation are willing to finance their campaigns, they are willing to follow their corporate masters and get the votes of the people who are willing to buy their truth-speak.

Those Democrats running for President as Democrats would not do anything to get us out of Iraq, and we do need to stay in Iraq in some capacity.

Lets at least have an honest debate about what we can do in Iraq, regardless of if you agreed or disagreed with the war in the first place, and stop this surge and benchmark nonsense. Leaving it as it is would be disasterous, as Saudi Arabia and Iran would both take sides to an even larger extent than they have, possibly leading to a regional war. But explaining that doesn’t fit easily into a 30 second commercial.

In my opinion, we should act as a military guard against foreign intervention in Iraq, protect the borders and oil infrastructure, and provide support to the central government in the form of arms, aid and training for their forces. Thats it. We need to take a hands off approach to interfering with the affairs of a democratically elected government, and let these guys work out their differences and handle their own security, come what may. The house to house crap and street patrols for US troops has to end. We can do this mission with 50-60,000 troops which is sustainable. Also, why does our embassy need to be in Baghdad?. It needs to be relocated outside Baghdad in a secure area where we do not have to hire mercenaries to protect anyone stepping outside the Green Zone.

Once the Iraqis recognize we wont take sides they will eventually reconcile and find a way to work together. It might not be pretty, but it isn’t very pretty now, and they will get there eventually.

Again, how to get it into a 30 second commercial?. How do you do it?

In any event, remember who runs this country, the Federal Reserve Corporation which is privately owned and poorly supervised. They control the money our government needs to to run. Bush needs money, Congress authorizes the spending, but it’s money we do not have. The Treasury Department has to ask the Fed for the money, their banks print it up and borrow the money from China and OPEC, for a small fee.

Our governments decision making structure is something like this today

Fed
Military-Industrial-Media-Intelligence-Corporate Simplex
Executive Branch/Judicial Branch
AIPAC (a hybrid of some in the Fed and MIMICS focused on Israels interests)
Congress
State Government (they count the votes, or not)
The People

Not exactly what our Founding Fathers envisioned, but that’s what it is, or seems to be.

Bush is not worried about his successor. His successor will have the same bosses he has, and if you disobey the bosses, well, look what happened to JFK and Nixon. Lesson learned.
KEM PATRICK September 20th, 2007 6:26 am

When I first found Common Dreams three months ago, about 25% of the comments posted were about impeaching Cheney, and or Bush. Now in the past month, we don’t read the word “impeach” very often. I fear it is because, we all sadly realize, ___ it ain’t gonna happen. I fear we all now realize, we are either going to suffer a depression and or, bush will not allow us to depart Iraq and is going to attack Iran, _________ because he wasn’t impeached.

Perhaps we here at Common Dreams, are in a very large minority. ____ Am I wrong there, or just stupid? Well, in any case, I met Siouxrose, Coco, Rebel, Kathyodat, Aymon, Paul Smith and a whole bunch of other swell people here, It’s been fun and a real learning experience for me.
dougrambo September 20th, 2007 10:37 am

Kem Patrick: It’s true Bush and Cheney wont be impeached. We will stay in Iraq. We will invade Iran. Many more troops,Iragis and Iranians and God knows who else will die. Welcome to this great experiment called democracy. Now be a good citizen sit down at the back of the democracy bus pay your taxes and SHUT UP! (Their sentiments not mine)
dougrambo September 20th, 2007 10:52 am

Since this dumb blog wont let me edit what I just wrote. Let me add I’m not telling you to shut up our government is!
But,I think you get my point. I think 99% of our frustration with out government is our lack of being able to truly participate. Therefore, I greatly fear it will be the Bush’s and his ilk that will ultimately destroy this country,we already see it happening. And that is a true shame. We could have been such a force for good!!!
KEM PATRICK September 20th, 2007 1:45 pm

At least we are gonna get the oil DOUGRAMBO, _____ one way or another. Less oil means higher gas prices, higher gas prces means Detroit falls on their ass. Think of it!! We keep our false economy afloat and get rid of a lot of Arabs at the same time, it’s good economics,___ we all know about the “theory” of economics.

And all this time I thought Cheney was either stupid or insane, ___ silly me.
ricke November 9th, 2007 4:54 am

Well what’s very clear to me now?

The Dems demonstration of non action since the 2006 election and the power gained had me worried they were no different than the Reps because they have acted so spineless. I had become furious realizing they would not get my vote for 2008 because they did not do the one thing they could do, impeach Cheney. I have mistakenly blamed this on spinelessness but after reading countless articles on Korea as model for Iraq it all makes perfect sense now they are not spineless but completely complicent in the whole nightmare. Nothing if little will change with a Dem as president, they are just different enough in appearance to give the voters the illusion of true choice there is no choice we are going with the program whether we like it or not.

Yes I am convinced none of the Dem potentials Billory, Obama, or Edwards will change a thing in Iraq if elected not because they can’t but because they do not want to period. They are only slightly different than the Reps, all of them are effectively owned by corporate interests.
We really need to start where our country is broken, campaign reform is mandatory. Sooner or later there will be blood in American streets fighting the terrorists who run the country. I will be dead by then but within 100 yrs max its going to break into a million pieces we the people just need to be driven to a more painful bottom first.
Oh I forgot the same politicans do not protect our borders in time of such danger of attack, not to mention we are out of $$ but helping illegal imigrants with I guess $$ from China. I now lovingly refer to The White House as The Crack House.

I am saddened to think for a brief time upon Obamas appearance on the stage I thought maybe I had a person of integrity to vote for. Not, his comments about not impeaching Cheney convinced me, he is out of my book forever. One thing could have been done that the Dems did not do impeach, and they think people will vote for them for 2008 promising more change as they did before in 2006 and have not done sh….. OK what ever - I am enlightened and glad I am 51 and will miss the revolution. It will come its inevitable and unavoidable.

I going out on a limb of thought here, I wonder what others think, is this kind of criminal insanity really posible in our government?

1- Clinton does not go hit Osama (yes he had intel also- really bad guy wants to kill us) or hit him for the Cole Incident cause he is in on the whole master plan with Bush or what ever power mad freaks run the world?

2- Bush and Cheney (as Clinton) well aware of the intelligence facts let 9-11 happen to advance their agenda- get into Iraq with some kind of story that seems sellable enough to pull off their dream of maybe controlling the Middle East?

3- They don’t kill Osama at Tora Bora cause if they do the game is over - with the 9-11 guy dead they we will have a real hard time selling this Iraq sh… to the handful of political police (non corporate sponsored employees) and the public?

So now I read the story of a 50 yr. occupation and I get it (my worst fears were always spot on) there really is no difference between a Rep and a Dem as my intuition always told me anyway. But the most recent moves of the US in the last 6 yrs are so blatantly obvious and sick that it’s all grist for the painful growth of our country that after a few 100 yrs is on a crash course for internal blood shed.

Is it possible in this country to start at square one, Campaign Finance Reform or do the power mad freaks have that so impossibility nailed shut they will only wake up to a Revolution in the Street?

We really do not need any wild-eyed conspiracy theories (just a hand full of people who let bad things happen to advance their agendas) that were rampant in the last few years for the above to work flawlessly. As each new day passes any serious observer should be able to see what has been in the works for far more than one administration. Even if Denis K. seems a voice of sanity (impeach Cheney) and insanity (telling publicly he saw a UFO) he knows there is no way impeachment will happen (or if so, it’s already in the total master plan which is completely Partisan) or he is just doing PR to get up the ladder and if he gets there will deliver more of the same old crap.

They are all bought and paid for trust in any of these people is impossible. We need to start over. This was not Thomas Jefferson’s plan, we are so very lost.

The only prayer I currently see is it is likely there are a few real Patriots left by acident in some government agencies that are a few steps from taking down the current admistration and exposing the whole long term master plan, holding many past asnd present dems and Reps criminally reponsble and throwing their ass in jail.
jadelung April 21st, 2008 3:45 am

水彩
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 油畫
 畫畫
 素描
 紫薇斗數
 紫薇
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