OOPS. What I meant to indicate -- slightly more sinister -- is this:

What if numerous U.S. high-level foreign policy officials described *IN ADVANCE* the NEED for a major "LUCKY" catastrophic attack on Americans that would "do the trick" to invigorate Americans' 'interests' in foreign policy rather than boring domestic spending on our own lives, children, infrastructure? What if you could read about them positively pining for such an event? Would that be a CONSPIRACY THE-ORY???
http://www.Takeoverworld.info/

What if Michael Moore dedicated a movie to Al-Qaeda? What if a U.S. President dedicated a major U.S. initiative to Al-Qaeda? What if Michael Moore gave all kinds of money to Al-Qaeda? What if multiple successive U.S. admins and CIA gave money to Al-Qaeda (or unnamed "mujahideen" "freedom fighters")?

What if Ward Churchill said that Americans NEEDED a major catastrophic event to change our foreign policy?

What if numerous U.S. foreign policy officials -- including members of the Defense Policy Board -- stated that Americans NEEDED a major catastrophic BLOODBATH for the same reasons ... to change our foreign policy to a more aggressive stance, radically reshape and privatize the military, ramp up spending, and invade multiple countries around the world, starting with Iraq?

What if numerous U.S. high-level foreign policy officials described *IN ADVANCE* the NEED for a major "LUCKY" catastrophic attack on Americans that would "do the trick" to invigorate Americans' 'interests' in foreign policy rather than boring domestic spending on our own lives, children, infrastructure? What if you could read about them positively pining for such an event? Would that be a CONSPIRACY THE-ORY???

In what case would the media report it? In what case would they ignore it? http://www.Takeoverworld.info/

well it's been over a month since anyone posted on this
(were they all arrested, and put in prison?)

I've just read through almost all of the whole comments and find the differing points of view on WTC an interesting mix,

here's my issue,
1) shock and awe,
2) I, like most of the population bought the "Official" media line
3) the reason, the amount of losses of lives, property, etc.
4) and in that state of mind (as psycology tells us) you will believe the first thing you are told.
5) now long after the shock of it has dissipated I can think again with a clear brain/mind
6) I was chalenged to investigate it myself and I did
7) most engineers if not all will tell you that you never build something that's barely strong enough, it's always 2x, 4x, 5x, 10x, etc. so something that is 2x is considered "Double safe" and down the line it goes. so that local bridge that says maximum 10 tons can probably hold 15 or 20 tons without it even being stressed never mind collapse, (an introductory course to engineering structural, civil, or other wise will reveals this right away).
8) so even if the "Structural Steel" in the WTC was only built to a 2x "Factor of Safety" there's no way in that an "Open air" kerosene fire would cause sufficient enough heating to weaken the steel such that it all would just drop out of sight into a powdered mess
9) and what of all the beams how is it that they were all an exact length to fit onto trucks for "Quick" removal?

don't believe it check out the "official" videos "Analysed" at:
(I'll post the link but it takes a bit of a "search" on the site now as it continues to grow in size to find the links. I'll try and contact the "web-master" and post back the proper full links).

http://www.stoplying.ca/

I don't "buy" everything on every site, but the videos and knowledge of the way things are supposed to be built (not barely safe, but as mentioned above, a minimum of 2x, and up to 10x or higher is more likely a "Factor of Safety" that would have been used.)

and if the buildings were "of inferior construction" they would have fallen over a long time ago since they were built quite a while ago, something built to just barely "safe" would not even withstand the winter almost "hurricane strength" winds of NY nevermind aircraft and fires.

cell phones may or may not work on aircraft at 30,000+ feet at such speeds, but low flyers may experience "great" cell service,

no I don't believe the Drone aircraft part of it, but rather just more casualties that were used to up the ante for an easier declaration of a pseudo "war on terror" and subsequent invasion of Iraq.

and these kinds of things have been going on for as long as there has been the government of "man" ie.
1) Nero blamed the fire on the christians so he could have "his way" with them
by passing new laws!
2) Hitler blamed the fire and it's subsequent burning down completely the German parlement building on the Jews and the passing of new "Security laws" (sound familiar)
the list goes on...

please don't check your brain at the door of the mainstream media (who imo are no better than the media of communist countries that would simply deny any "incident" (Tienamen Square comes to mind) but rather do a botched job of reporting and or just report what they're "told to") or the door of the "Conspiracy Theorists" but do the research thoughtfully and filter out the crud and fluff that's just there as fill.

Cheers â–¼ â–²
â—„RfDâ–º

Folks, the key word is "risk." If Bush sees "risk" in you. You don't need to commit any act. Any action (or thoughts) opposite to Bush's "peace making/stabilizing" efforts would qualify.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html#

(i) to have committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing, an act or acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of:

(A) threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of Iraq; or

Think that's bad? Wait until you see the latest "EXECUTIVE DISORDER" announced by Bush which is essential a massive surge against the Constitution

You are not going to believe it. Go to the White House website at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html# and read the July 17, 2007 Executive Order in which Bush announces that he plans to give the Secretary of the Treasury power to, among other things, seize all assets of anyone in this country even suspected of posing a "significant risk" that they might disagree with any Iraq goals or policies of Bush. It supposedly will be confined to those suspected of undefined "acts of violence," but considering it extends to future suspected acts as well and considering Bush already has the Secret Service arrest even spectators at campaign event for merely wearing a contradictory t-shirt, not to mention he often conflates all dissenters and opposition as traitors, there is good reason to fear how he will interpret the possibility those he does not happen to like or trust might commit supposedly violent acts.

Executive Orders have the force of law and this one is scary as hell in its implications. Remember, it is mere suspicion by an Executive branch official, not a judge or jury, that triggers this really drastic result. Combine that with destruction of habeus corpus and searches without warrant already in practice by this Administration and together they effectively nullify most of the Bill of Rights not to mention the powers granted to the two other formerly equal branchs of government. Unfortunately, except through the Ron Paul website, no one in Congress or running for office seems to have even mentioned it.

Frankly, I would not want any President to hold such power, no matter how much I might agree with him or her on other things. And, my by now well justified lack of trust in the Bush Administration is infinite. I cannot immagine they would not immediately and capriciously exercise such total power to silence opponents.

My guess is not even the most rabid right winger on the Republican Supreme Court would uphold it when and if tested, but in the years it would take someone to fight it through the courts, they could be without access to a dime of your assets the entire time. It gives the power to seize your home, your paychecks, your car simply because of suspicion, not proof or conviction.

If this particular Executive Order is not a "High Crime or Misdemeanor" against the Constitution as well as a violation of the President's Oath of Office, what the hell is? This is exactly what the impeachment remedy was designed by the Founding Fathers to protect against. What does it take to get our elected representatives and senators off their rear ends and convene for the process? If they won't impeach Bush, then we need to start recall campaigns to remove our present representatives and senators and replace them with others who will do what is increasingly necessary. Tell them by phone and e-mail today.

The only saving grace in this whole frightening effort by Bush and Cheney to apparently grant themselves essentially unrestricted control is that they have so broken our military, our domestic law enforcement agencies and our obviously ironically named "justice" department, they might not be able to accomplish their hoped for effective abolishment of the Constitution's ideals.

The establishment folks are experts on getting people to "take their eye off the ball" and the "ball", in this case, and all throughout history, lies within the economic model, not the political one.

The support of long term and short term problems starts with buying gold. There has been a great deal of "sleight of hand" concerning the true value of the U.S. dollar. It's hugely inflated value will find its true trade value in years to come. Why wait ?

Rest assured that market manipulation will always succumb to the laws of a natural market. God will laugh last, but everyday Americans will suffer ....... unless they are prepared.

We're all following the same "script", oddly enough. Some carry carrots, while others wield a stick.

Political answers will follow economic preparedness.

Do the liberals here on this blog understand yet why they should be FOR the right to bear arms? This plan has been in place for years now. Katrina saw the implementation of it in a small scale version. Families were relocated to detention centers in the midwest, Oklahoma Utah and Arkansas to be sure. They were then seperated by gender and NOT given a place for the family as they were told when getting on the bus leaving NO. Martial law WAS declared in New Orleans and not only the Nat. Guard was called in but Blackwater USA was also called in. They are the Mercenary force currently in Iraq conducting alot of the atrocities the military gets incorerectly credited for. Let's just say there is a reason most of these guys are NOT in a military. FEMA has in its own charter a provision to become the government as well. Better own a gun soon if you do not now. Hopefully if it comes to this the military will place the administration in jail where they all belong. The Congress and Supreme Court can go with them too.

And don't forget all of the Dear Leader's executive orders, such as the one he wrote a few months ago that gives him control over the entire U.S. government, state governments, and even industry in the event of virtually any kind of disruption, natural or man-made. Or the one he wrote a few days ago that permits him to seize the assets of virtually anyone by simply declaring that they are destabilizing Iraq, even if very indirectly.

The real question is whether the Dear Leader – or rather his boss, Darth Vader – intends to leave office in 2009. If not, then it's clear what to expect: a "terrorist" attack that will be blamed on Iran, followed by martial law, an attack on Iran, and indefinite "postponement" of the 2008 election until voting can be made "secure." All it would take is, say, a few grisly attacks on political offices throughout the country, accompanied by a government assertion, sans evidence, that terrorists have a plan to attack voting places throughout the country on election day. Given this scenario, who would demand that the election proceeds?

There is little doubt that Darth Vader was behind 9/11. Oh sure, they got a couple of fools willing to blow themselves up to participate, but the operation was supervised from start to finish by Darth himself, in order to make sure it was a smashing success. So if they were willing to do 9/11, then why not another phony "terrorist" attack. followed by martial law?

I'm not too sure that the military will come to our defense. After all, look at the barbarity of their actions in Iraq. You can't create killing machines and then simply switch them off. Moreover, if the Dear Leader commandeers the National Guard for the purpose of imposing martial law, he's not going to send the units back to their home states to maintain order, precisely because they would be sympathetic to their neighbors. No, he'd send the guard units to states to which they have no sympathy, and maybe even antipathy. In addition, the precedent has been well established now for the use of mercenaries. These people are cold blooded killers from all over the world who would enjoy killing a few uppity Americans who dared to protest against martial law. Martial law would probably need to be accompanied by conscription as well, and these inductees would be carefully trained to view Americans who protest and resist martial law as subhuman enemies of the country.

Dave

Why don't these blogs always edit?

WEZ___WEZ, __where you at? It's 5am.

WEZ old buddy. I didn't do my homework WEZ? Hmmmmm.

Would you be so kind, as to address the points I made? And if you forgot, I'll bring them up once more and ask a few questions, for I do want to learn the truth and be enlightened.

What happened to the two "hi-jacked" aircraft, that were tracked by radar all the way from Boston to the twin towers location? Altitudes of the aircraft were not known to the aircraft controllers, because the aircraft IFFs had been turned off. Some say there are "stories", that both aircraft later landed in Ohio. Okay, what do you suppose happened to the passengers and crews after they landed? Are they in Gitmo, or were they flown to Egypt for torture, or just taken to a big ditch, lined up and machine gunned to death and then bull-dozed over, or were they treated as co-conspiritors and each given fifty million dollars in brand new hundred dollar bills, given new identities and now live happy lives in the Greek Isles on their private Yachts? Please give us your theory about those hundreds of people, whom most believe were killed, when the aircraft struck the twin towers.

Supposedly, the two trade center buildings were well prepared and ready for imploding, the explosives were all set and ready to fire. All that was missing, was to have two large airliners strike the buildings, to cover the truth of their actual destruction.
So, the devious and evil plotters, get some terrorists lined up and insure they are schooled on how to fly a 757 and hit the buildings. Buuuut, they don't really do that, they do hi-jack the aircraft but allow the crews to safely fly to and land in Ohio. Why? Because the plotters of this amazing plot have two radio controlled 757s, loaded with explosives, prepared to take off and fly the route to the twin towers and ram the buildings, all by radio control and sercretly rigged by the Skunk Works people, so they are invisible to radar.

But wait, we can't do that until the two hi-jacked aircraft tail numbers are known. So,___ as soon as the terrorists are seated on the aircraft they wil hi-jack in Boston, the tail numbers are called in to the plotters and they have some fast painters paint the drone aircraft tail numbers on and also paint the two 747s with the airline colors of the airlines which the terrorists are going to hi-jack in a few minutes. Ahhhh, the plot is going as plannned. My question is WEZ, is that how it was done.__ No, okay, how?

Okay, I'm still with you WEZ, doing my new homework here. Now, how about the dozens of cell phone calls? Please don't tell us, as one other here has, that there were no cell phones in 2001 that could be used on an aircraft, because it is not so. I used mine several times on aircraft in 1999 and 2000.

So, what about the phone calls from passengers some of which were taped, who stated, they were approachig the twin towers? Ahhh, I bet I know. They were forced to make those calls by the terrorists, while they were on their merry way to Ohio. Other passengers on the aircraft who had phones, were too frightend to make calls to loved ones, while the few terrorists were doing their dirty work with the ones who were making the fake calls. This is beginning to make a lot of sense now. The pieces are falling into place.

I do have a funny feeling__ that this mystery plot is not going to be a best seller though.

This one may sell. Elvis did not die. He tired of his strenious and rather hectic life, and secretly had a sex change operation. Elvis is now living in a mouuntain top convent, located on a large tract of land, which is owned by the Catholic church anfd the Bush family. The hidden estate is situated between the Kingdom of Bhutan and Cambodia. elvis's only regreat is, now tha the is a female, he cannot parellel park his pink Cadillac.

I'm anxiously waiting and ready for some more lessons WEZ,__ and thank you so much for the others, I'm learning and have an open mind. That is why my brains fell out in the street. You still have yours?

WWIII... soon to be the Fascist American empire, versus the European Union, Russia, China, Middle East etc... it's all just a pretext for a World Government after the conclusion of the war (long war-after many profits are made), and the new world order.

For those folks who are thinking: Rigging the towers must take weeks, not a power-down on a weekend! And it would take million pounds of TNT!

Consider the following history of the WTC:

1. David Rockefeller was known as the 'Visionary behind the World Trade Center' (Who was David Rockefeller BTW?)

2. BIN LADEN CONSTRUCTION worked on the WTC construction project (ref: Paul Laffoley)

3. Christopher A. Brown remembered the 'special plastic coating' (C4) applied during the construction.

4. Judy Wood (Ph D.) currently is researching the possible use of Ronald Reagan's favorite weapon (Did anyone call him a tin-hat?).

On Sep 11, 2001, a building of 47 columns collapsed like a sand castle.

On Sep 11, 2001, another building of 47 columns collapsed like a sand castle.

On Sep 11, 2001, a building of 47 floors collapsed like an old Las Vegas casino.

Who built these, these '47-specials'? Who controlled access to these buildings? Who determined their fate?

More to come...

But Yankee your Doodle, God elected Bush. Don't you remember?

The video queen. ___ If our econony collapses, it will be Katrina magnified ten to twenty thousand times. There won't be any viable military, "everyone" will be searching for food supplies and there won't be any. Desperate people kill for food.

There won't be a government in a few days, it will be anarchy, thousands of riots and racial rioting. After the smoke clears, there will be a disorganized military takeover__ thousands of armed gangs roaming the country. Roaming what will be left of it.

Mad Max was fiction. If we have a depression, the truth will be more real than fiction. There was an abundance of food during the last depression,__ not this time. Those millions of small farmers are not here anymore.

What about the possbility that the economy collapses and the only people handing out paying jobs is the US military?

(NOTE: The US people would want to do whatever it took to keep us "safe" during the time our dollar was worthless and crimes were widespread by desperate, broken citizenry.)

The result would be two-fold:
1) Since the military would be broken (purposely in my opinion) the econmic collapse would work to boost military enrollment exponentially. AND
2) it would greatly reduce any thoughts by military personnel to refuse to turn arms against their own citizens and neighbors.

In other words, why would military personnel bite the hand that feeds them only to be sent back out with the rest of us jobless, bankrupt, homeless citizenry?

Don't forget that the Republican Bush Machine has once before staged a very Public riot (perhaps a test drive?).

During the 2000 Election Vote Counting in Florida, busloads and planeloads of "Republican" supporters, Loyal Bushies all, rioted outside the building the votes were being counted in. The vote counters demanded Police Protection when they left the building after abandoning the recount.

These were NOT Florida residents. They were shipped in from all over the US for the express purpose of staging a riot and stopping the count.

Oh, and lets not forget that Loyal Bushies are also required to take an Oath of Personal Loyalty to Dubya. He started doing it while Governor of Texas and has continued to this day.

It's a strategy historicly associated with dictators and totalitarian regimes. Hilter, Mussolini, Stalin, Bush...
They all demand their followers take an oath of Personal loyalty.

Instead of the oath to protect and defend the Constitution which Bush himself violates on a daily basis...

HOUSE for sale, soul not yet sold. Like in Germany in the mid '30's many fled cuz it was too late....
Maybe I will move there, ja gut da bin ich.

This is one of the best on-line videos regarding 9/11 being an "Inside Job". It's called "9-11 Mysteries".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

You can also watch "Loose Change 2nd Edition" on Google. But might as well watch "9-11 Mysteries" then go to your local multi-plex or Landmark type theater to see "Loose Change Final Cut" which is being released theatrically world-wide the weekend before the anniversary of 9-11.

"Loose Change Final Cut" is being financed to the tune of $20 million by Mark Cuban, the owner of the Dallas Mavericks. The narrator is Charlie Sheen.

I purchased the DVD, "9-11 Press for Truth" which is a documentary about The Jersey Girls. They are wives of husbands killed in the WTC's on 9-11. They were the ones who banded together and demanded a formal investigation. As we all know, Bush fought ANY investigation! It was funded with about $6 million, compared to about $20 million to investigate whether or not Clinton knew the meaning of the word "is".

It is a powerful DVD. I sent it out to L.A. where it is making the daily rounds from person to person. It has some incredible moments. Like when Kissinger was named to head the committee. The Jersey Girls are in a room with Kissinger and they ask him if he has any "Saudi" clients. He looks down, hmms and hawws and the next scene is the women saying he has to go. Then there's Bush and Cheney FINALLY agreeing to questioning. Only caveats? They have to be questioned TOGETHER. They won't take an oath to swear to tell the truth. There can be no family members of those killed on 9-11 present. No notes can be taken. No cameras. No recording devices and thus no transcripts. The quote on the DVD box regarding the 9-11 Commission is: "They lied. They all lied."

To anyone interested, go to the KPFA website in Berkeley and check out all the archive programs of "Guns and Butter" produced by Bonnie Faulkner. There are many great shows to listen to with Dr. David Ray Griffin who wrote "Debunking 9-11 Debunking", Michael Ratner who did a great show on the Constitution on the 4th of July etc.

One of the most compelling shows was the one with April Gallop, a Pentagon survivor, Dave Von Kleist (who plays the audio of CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon on 9-11 saying, "You would never know a plane crashed here. There is no sign of a plane. No seats, no parts, no fuselage, no baggage. Nothing. Only a few small pieces here and there you could pick up with your hands." Then he plays Jamie McIntyre, who is now the PENTAGON SPOKESMAN as he commented on 9-11 this May and said, "It's NONSENSE to suggest a plane did not hit the Pentagon! I was there! You could see fuselage and other plane parts everywhere!"

Mind you this is AFTER Donald Rumsfeld slipped and said "A missile hit the Pentagon". Just Google it.

And on and on it goes.

And for the cherry on the sundae, just Google Dr. Steven Jones and listen to his account of how the World Trade Centers fell.

Who had the motive? Who had the means? Who had the opportunity? Who have the events of 9-11 benefited? The very military-industrial corporate complex Eisenhower and JFK warned us about.

Who paid for the whole rotten thing? We did.

As W.C. Fields said, "Never give a sucker an even break."

Vicar , you must be insane. You really belive that Armstrong never landed on the moon! And ther say Right wingers are conspriciy people.. Give me a break. Also , why is it that people don't want to be called Liberals , all of a sudden it's Progresives?? Is it because your ashamed of being called liars , opps , mean liberals?? Could someone enlighten me on this - without any moon stories please...

Galen, You are funny,___wrong also.

There were millions of cell phones in use years before 9-11. Many of the phone calls from passengers on the two aircraft were taped, because the calls went to answering machines and one hostess was on her cell phone talking to the ground controllers at EWR and that conversation was taped also. I had and used a cell phone in 1999, all of my drivers had one. The people on the flight that crashed In Penna knew of the other two aircraft that hit the twin towers because they were discussing it with family members on their cell phones. That is why they decided to take over the aircraft.

It is not my qualifications that matter. It is the qualified men who designed and built the buildings that matters and they state how and why the buildings fell. I'll accept their qualifications over mine or yours. I do suspect your qualifications, your statements about cell phones tell us you don't know much.

It was the construction method by which the twin toweres were constructed that caused it to come down. The fire did not melt the steel beams, some were sheared by the aircraft strikes and others were weakened by the fires and twisted out of shape, which allowed the concrete floors to fall to the foor below. Not long ago, a high rise parking garage being built in Atlantic City fell the same way, the construction methods of secruing the flooor beams was flawed. The excess weight of the dropped concrete caused that floor to fall to the one below. The floors above the ones that fell now had no support and they came crashing straight down. It all happened in a very few seconds. The eventual and very fast result was all of the floors began to fall straight down, just like heavy dominoes.

The Empire State buildng was hit by a twin enfgine B-25 and no structural beams were sheared, that building was not built like the twin towers were, a totally different construction method. Neither did the towers at the MGM in Las Vegas fall due to a massive fire,__ different construction.

Explosives do not cause pools of molton steel when a buliding is imploded either. And I have never heard of any pools of molten steel at the towers site. There were pools of melted aluminum, not steel. There was tons of aluminum in the buildings and in the aircraft that struck them. There was also a ton of depleted uraniumin in the aircraft, which was used as counter weights. They no longer use DU in newly built aircaft for that purpose. Many of the rescue workers at the site are now suffering from radiation poisioning from inhaling DU dust. Some have been treated for it in Cuba.

We have a goood friend whose wife was on the first aircraft that crashed and if that aircraft landed in Ohio, she never came home to her husband and children. Did the CIA or some other government agency murder all of those passnegers and crews? To the best of my knowledge, neither did hundreds of other families reunite.

Flying small radio controlled drone aircraft like the Ryan models used in Buffalo Hunter and launched from DC-130s was difficult at that time in our history, expertly flying two 757s by that method is very hard to swallow. They also were not detected by any of four airport radars or the Eastern Flight Control Center radars. The two that flew from Boston and crashed into the towers were tracked by the radars. They only thing they could not determine was the aircraft altitudes, because the terrorists had shut off the IFFs and the doppler systems. But several other aircaft crews flying in the vicinity witnessed the entire event and there were not four 757s anywhere near the towers, only two were seen by radars and thousands of witnesses. Find a dfferent subject to comment on Galen. You don't know what you are talkng about on this one.

IF Avgas or jet fuel is now 'supposed' to suficiently weaken the stucture of a tall building to the point of catastrophic failure... Why didn't the apartment block in Tehran, Iran collapse after being struck by a fully fueled C-130 Hercules transport almost two years ago? For that matter, why is the Empire State building in New York still standing after being hit by a B-25 Mitchell bomber? And please... explain why the Salomon Brothers Building (WTC 7) appeared to commit suicide in sympathy for it's lost taller kindred? It only had a few minor, oxygen starved fivs going in it. And if there was 'no conspiracy', how did the BBC come to announce that WTC 7 had 'just collapsed' when, as the camera view pulled back, WTC 7 could be seen to still be standing?

And explain why, in the face of all evidence, has no steel framed building before or since 9/11 collapsed due to fire? I'm sorry to tell you, research by those FAR more qualified than you and I has confirmed there is no way, repeat NO WAY the jet fuel on that day burned any hotter than 1800 degrees, at ANY duration to seriously weaken the steel supports of the Twin Towers. Ask yourselves this... How did fires so far up in the two buildings weaken the supports on the lowest floors? And what caused the pools of MOLTEN steel that were still molten more thatn two weeks after the events of 9/11? Why did the buildings fall straight down, without tipping into other buildings or the street, into their own footprints?

And by the way, common cell phone service from aircraft was not even remotely capable until AFTER 9/11. The cell phones companies made a HUGE media hoopla when they announced that.

Think about it.

Yeah it's scarry, but whatever you do, DON'T give into fear. Fear is their best weapon. A cowardly public is what they prey upon. That's how they got all this sheit approved in the first place. Fear is a big motivator. Don't buy it. Don't be like the current Congress. Be fearless. There's nothing to fear but fear itself. We need to rise above and be strong!

Remember, the Indians overthrew the mighty British empire by being fearless. It takes courage to stand up against an oppressive regime. It takes courage to practice non-violent civil disobedience.

Remember, in the movie Gandhi, he told his audience of resisters to an unjust law in South Africa, "...they may take me to prison, they may torture, even kill my body, but they will NEVER have my obedience!"

In summary: FEAR NOT! Rise up! We've got the power!

PS, Don't worry, be happy!

Woke up this morning in the middle of Connecticut thinking, "Maybe I should check out the church up the road this morning and witness the truth to the people there on 9/11."

Instead I jumped onto Commondreams to read comments and I just read the post by TIBERIUS BOND from July 27 at 5:34 p.m. This is the most succinct post I have ever read and it made me realize that this website and reading this Tiberius' post WAS my church today. I copied it and sent it to everyone in my address book.

"Seek ye the truth and the truth shall set ye free." J.C.

Kem,

I just Googled '911 flight93 cleveland landing' and numerous (dozens) of links & articles came up about the plane landing in Cleveland on 911. Some even talk about Flight 175, that supposedly crashed into a WTC tower, landing also. A lot of 'funny business' going on, eh? Here's a link that has a lot of other reference links on it:

http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/articles/article/1518131/37079.htm

JAZZARA: From a mundane perspective, it's unquestionable that the pieces are lined up on the U.S. chessboard for a potential enactment of martial law via a "false flag" event, etc. The factors that are NOT in the hands of the neocons (absolute power always leaves plenty of room for hubris, and the universe abhors a vacuum... thus will find ways to FILL it) include the state of our economy and the vulnerable position of the US dollar; increasingly chaotic climate-based events, and outside forces. Our own revolutionary war was aided by OUTSIDERS and for any meaningful new revolution aimed at re-aligning the PRINCIPLES this nation was founded upon are unlikely to come singularly from movements on the inside. Of course the very premise now puts one in a position of "aiding the enemy" and we know how our decider/unitary executive and his court cronies, along with an impotent congress and still mostly complicit press would handle such things. Ultimately Divine justice will prevail, but like a particularly rough child birth, the labor pains of getting to that new "being" will be anything but fast or easy. Good bye programming based upon a culture of convenience.

kem patrick, et al

i'm still here!!!

as an outsider, (non-american) i find it hard to believe martial law would be implemented, UNTIL i looked at the worlddailynet video link and read your articles and comments etc. still not sure about the 9/11 conspiracy theory but would like for you all to take a look at www.earthpulse.com/haarp and if you don't already know about it, then see what you think of the possibility of this project being able to alter weather/control minds etc.

i first learned about it just before the iraq invasion, when a canadian wrote a letter in the daily star newspaper from lebanon, citing this (what he called) wmd, and saying never mind about saddam's weapons, take a look at this beauty.!!!

don't know what it's capabilities are, but anything that "boils" the skies cannot be good, or it would be there already. agreed???

interested to hear your views.

coco

Agreed, Kem.

There's no accountable law at the federal level. The highest elected officials (ethical degenerates) are ruling by fiat, just as Hitler increasingly did as Chancellor, before finally being able to declare himself The Big F.

The US governance crisis seem almost irreversible now, and all it'll take is another attack to totally sink the Constitution - and even the hope of protest/demands for accountability.

Given the outrages that've already slid-by a totally-corrupt structure and zombied-out citizenry, the cat's arguably out of the bag already. But unlike Germany, there's eight generations of semi-functional constitutional law in the US political memory, which even if almost fully-dead, should at least be pushed to come alive - almost like performing CPR on a drowing victim - before you give up and pronouce the body dead.

Sentimentalism?

Pronouncing the [US political] body dead in this case will almost surely lead to some kind of civil war inside the US - and all the horror and extra human suffering that'll entail. So, if there's anyway to push to the last minute, before giving up, I say we should do it, even if it appears hopeless.

Morally, I agree with the argument that America's citizenry's become so decadent, ignorant, & desentized to the suffering its pseudo-government-by-the-People is causing the rest of Humanity and its own hpnotized citizenry itself, that 'it' deserves whatever it gets, now.

But I also see that the average citizen's hypnosis has been foisted on him/her by far-worse humans specimens than your average, bumbling next-door neighbor -- who if given half-a-conscious chance, (via different leadership) would never be as rotten as the the dollar-sucking psychopaths who now dominate the levers of power.

But America does have a real-spotty record of minimal virture, even across those eight generations, and so I can't argue the case for 'resussitation' too much.

I just know that all of us Americans, dissenters no less-so, are likely-in for a huge amount of shit now, probably the end of our country, if we can't grab this one last chance at rescuing at least our consciousness of our Promise-to-Ourselves.

Marxists think that that Promise was an illusion from the [1789) Beginning. They may be right. But you'd never know it by the eight decades of maddness their psychologically- unsmart theories gave rise-to after 1917 Russia.

Your USA prognosis would be of interest to me.

Couldn't have sid it better "The Trigger". The problem is impeachment.

If 50 million of us marched to DC tomorrow and peacefully but firmly and loudly demanded impeachment for Bush and Cheney, what would transpire?___ The truthful answer is,___ nothing.

Congressman Conyers has the bill in his desk and he ain't gonna initiate it. One man has effectively stopped impeachment and until that road block is moved we can write, march, piss and moan and scream our brains out,__ and it won't help. That is a sad fact and how do we correct it? Conyers is violating the supreme law of the land. "Our Constitution".

That treasured document says, congress SHALL inpeach if it is necessary. It is necessary and Conyers is guilty of breaking the law and no one is doing squat about it.

So, someone tell us how to arrest Conyers and make him do his sworn duty. Until then, or until he does do his duty, impeachment is just another eleven letter word.

THE TRIGGER:

If there's another major terrorist attack in the US, before an honest President (ever-again?) gets elected, we'el get to see - quick as spit -- what happens RE 'Martial Law.'

Almost certainly, Martial Law will be declared if another 'attack' happens while Bush/Cheney are still in office - whether they perped the 9/11 attacks, or whether they perp the new attacks, or not.

It wouldn't matter who did it. We'd never be able to know for sure "then" --just like we don't know "now' about 9/11).

WHAT WE DO KNOW NOW is that we have lying, murderous, psychopaths in charge of the Executive; a near-useless Congress; and a corrupt/complicit mainstream Media.

You don't need to believe in any 'wild' or 'unproven' conspiracy theories, right now, to know that another attack means high probability for Martial Law, even if some aspects of Congress/military/media decided to 'argue' against the declaration when it came.

The 'arguing' in itself, at that point, would only deepen the horrendous crisis, and push Bush/Cheney to {this time} lay down the Unitary Executive Law (now enabled by Patriot Acts I & II; etc. etc.) and by fiat, declare to US citizens : "Either you're with me or against me..." --etc., etc.

And rifles & guns aren't gonna be any match for citizens facing (even a small portion) of the government's sophisticated weapons, under a president's control.

What's so sikeningly scary is that this scenario isn't any longer 'crazy' or 'paranoid.' It will in fact likely be triggered "simply" by another terrorist attack.

That's why - no matter what anybody else says, here -citizens need, at the very minimum, try to impeach Bush/Cheney and rescind their illegal powers -- NOW -before another attack happens.

Once Martial Law is declared, it'll be maximum Twilight Zone. Maybe the sane citizens would ultimately win -- but probably not anytime soon afterward. Marxist Revolution Horseshit aside: We need to nip-in-the-bud this particular possibility, now, -at least until sane people in America are better-organized.

Otherwise, we're just gonna be switching Bush's War on Terror for Our War on Bush's Terror.

It may come to that, anyway; but let's try to avoid what further maddnes we can, now, by removing the most-dangerious nutcases in the Executive..

Go to: http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77 for more info on detention faciliteis and plans to use the U.S. Military in the United States. All for the control of the nutsoes in Congress.

Okay Paul, I fully trust your judgement, your intelligence, education and your excellent mind. If you believe the world trade center buldings were imploded, I will not argue and attempt to accept your opinions, event though I have a problem of understanding how any managed to set the necessary explosives in secret and no one ever detected them.

I still have three important questions to eleviate my confusion, and I would like to have someone offer explinations.

How did the conspiritors manage to have aircaft hi- jacked, then get two radio controlled Boeing 757s, off the ground at the exact right time as the hi-jacked aircraft, fly the drones to Manhatten, hit the towers, and decieve everyone into thinkng, they were the two hijacked 757s? They even managed to have the same tail numbers as the hi-jacked aircraft. I've seen blowups pictures of the aircraft just prior to their striking the buildings. The tail numbers were the same as the hi-jacked aircraft. That is amazing plannng and co-ordination of a master plan.

Second and third questions. Why were there over sixty recorded cell phone calls made from passengers to loved ones, and many of the victems stated, they were flying at a low altitude, passing near tall buildings and then heading straight towards the twin towers. What happened to those two 757 aircraft, if the two that hit the twin towers were not the hi-jacked aircraft but radio controlled aircraft, as Tiberius Bond asserts?

There is no question the two aircraft that struck the buildings were indeed 757s and if Bond is correct, the 757s were radio controlled bombs. The two aircraft carrying hundreds of passengers, many making phone calls and saying they could see they were near the twin towers, just vanished into thin air; what happened to them?

BTW. I was a jet engine techincian for many years. There are some titanium parts in jet engines, but only a few internal parts. I have also been on several accident investigations and the jet engines are always almost totaly intact, except for the inlet and exhaust ducts and some external plumbing. That is true even with a massive accident, like slamming straight into a granite mountain for example.

Finally, I certainly do believe the threat of Martial Law is real.

United Steel Workers?? Where is the leadership there to help with a general strike?

It is Sunday morning, and I can't let this and other blogs of friday go. Some very interesting reading here.

Is it as bad as some of you believe?

In response to the last paragraph (and someone else may have posted this already), 'Blackwater' would be used, as they were in New Orleans. That is what seems apparant to me.

This is really frightening. If you can toruture ANYONE, then you would be willing to torture EVERYONE. We tend to have a willing suspension of disbelief, when it comes to what can happen to us in the U.S. But look at what has been happening, and what these people have done to so many. Why would we expect to be treated any differently?

Join the NRA. The Second Ammendment makes all others possible. The Army and Blackwater cannot control Iraq, and they are TRYING. They will NEVER control 100 million gun owners, especially when the troops either do not have their hearts in it or are actively rebelling/killing their officers (Who will not have their hearts in any repression of Americans, either.)

I was in New Orleans in 2005, with the CA Natl Guard. The order came down to confiscate all firearms we encountered when we talked to people in their houses. (This was later prohibited, by law.) After a number of us pointed out that we considered this to be an illegal order and we would not obey it, said order was rescinded. The same thing would happen if anyone was stupid enough to order the military to disarm all Americans.

Ok, it posted. One reason I'm doing this in two parts is I think the post I wrote earler today was over the character limit so I'm being more cautious now.

Here is the piece of info which led me to believe we were lied to about 911:

Planes supposedly crashed into the solid stone building of the Pentagon and into the earth in Pennsylvania, right? Aside from the fact an airplane with a 140 foot wingsppan (and with two nine foot in diameter titanium engines attached) only created a hole less than 20 feet in diameter, and aside from the fact the claim was the plane 'vaporized' (titanium melts at 400 degrees above steel BTW) when it hit the only side of the Pentagon that had been recently reinforced, 184 of 189 passengers were identified through their DNA.

In contrast to that, the coroner in Pennsylvania stated he couldn't identify ANYONE from that crash even though it crashed into soft dirt instead of solid stone. He said there weren't any remains to identify. Who can explain this?

Frankly I am not amazed at the people who doubt 911 was a conspiracy against our country. You have been cleverly programmed into believing the official lies. About a third of Americans have been skeptical enough & diligent enough to seek alternate sources of information, and as they discover logical explanations to literally hundreds of vital un-answered questions (or even un-asked by officials obligated to do so) the ranks of 911 'doubters' continues to grow.
Patriotic citizens in a democracy always question the actions of their government, while only foolish people blindly let themselves be led.

As Woodward & Bernstien would say, "Follow the money!" Who stood to gain? The new owner of the WTC certainly did. When he purchased the WTC, less than a year before 911 BTW, he already knew that because of asbestos issues the buildings would have to come down. Estimates of the cost of this ranged from 10 to 20 billion dollars. Instead he walked away with a handsome, albiet bloody, $1.5 billion profit.

Tiberius Bond...thankyou for your post and for being courageous to face facts, ugly as they are, and being brave enough to admit your previous notions about 911 were based on spoon fed fallacies, then changing your mind. I am particularly grateful for this portion of your post,

"Things clicked for me, mostly out of personal experience. I did do some explosive work with miniatures, early in my career. If I hadn't had that experience, I might not have such a firm grasp on the basic principals of controlled demolition. I also know a few magicians, and that experience taught me about illusions and distraction."

Few Americans even now realize the illusionist's distraction with this event. On 9-10-2001, an article came out (I believe in the NY Times, but not certain) stating the Pentagon couldn't account for $2.3 Trillion (that's right Trillion with a capital 'T') in materials that were 'missing'. That's 2,300 billion. Now I've 'lost' some things in my life, but how the hell does a government agency entrusted with accountability 'lose' that much stuff? Isn't it convenient this admission of incompetence was overshadowed by events of the next day? Follow the money!!!

Here's the one piece of the 911 story that firmly convinced me the whole official explanation was a stinker. Before I discuss this point I will refer you to a letter from UL (Underwriters Laboratories) to NIST:

"WTC Construction Certifiers Say Towers Should Have Easily Withstood Jet Fuel Temperatures"

Kevin Ryan/Underwriters Laboratories | November 12 2004

Here's a link to the complete letter:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104easilywithstood.htm

why would the u.s. under martial law tomorrow look any different then today?

Why wouldn't it be business as usual?

why wouldn't china and saudia arabia et al keep backing our economy?

has the tai economy collapsed?
Did pakistan collapse?

why wouldn't you still go to work?

why would your work even close?

they wouldn't have to gas anyone.

who might they eventually need to lock up; 2-5% of the population?
isn't 2-5% of the population all ready locked up?

who's resisting today?
who would resist tommorrow?

the clinical defintion of facism is something like consolidated economic intrests control of the government.

The only thing that would change is term limits---
ie; the lack thereof.

propaganda-polling-pr

they got us.

ya'll been watching too many crappy b rated soviet invasion of the united states 1980's movies.
armed insurrections....come on.

fun reading this
in my heart i know
a gallon of petrol
and a bic
will shut the country down

guns
i don't think so

the country
will come back
green!!!!!!

ken

Sherlock Holmes' most famous quote sums up the essence of my point. "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
I can't argue with you about the merits of physical law and as you choose to believe the impossible. It is very improbable, yes, but controlled demolition is the only possible explanation for the collapse of the WTC and Building 7. Have you even seen the footage of Building 7's collapse? Are you really serious? Unfortunately, I am.
Back to the point I took with the article to begin with, without confronting 9/11, the bogus "war on terror" will go on forever. Martial Law or something just as bad will be inevitable, and we won't remember the "History" that is happening before our very own eyes. The Orwellian nightmare of a war meant to go on forever for the profit of the rich, will be mankind's epitaph.
If you are sincere, then you would at least agree, that a full investigation into 9/11 must occur, given all the points you've mentioned. As for clouding the issue with other "wacko theories," I am not confused. What I am talking about is not silly.
There is a big difference between being an opportunist of a tragedy vs. being the crimal who committed it in the first place. It shows the determination and willpower that exceeds the boundries of the rational "sane" mind. It keeps you from knowing the true extent of the extremes your opponent is willing to go, and hobbles your own ability to respond.
How many people have secrets regarding 9/11? How do they live with themselves? It is beyond me, and I'm sorry to be a witness to these times. I'm trying to make a difference, are you?

Yesterday, at work, I voiced the opinion I've held for years - that Bush/Cheney would allow/manufacture another 'act of terrorism' to validate martial law if pushed too far and how horrid that would be. Someone replied, "Sacrifices are part of war" and went on to talk about our revolutionary patriots.

I'm struggling to see where these revolutionary patriots would come from today. We - the 'have nots' seem to be struggling with dozens of small wars/fights all around us, distracted trying to keep 'body and soul' together. I want to be an optimist but..

I believe the official story of the planes alone bringing down the twin towers and the plane hitting the Pentagon. But, there are still about a thousand nagging uncertainties and coincidences, involving WTC7, the Pentagon getting hit in the one place where no one was working after the plane made a very nifty, tight turn, and much more. And the Neocons did need this to whip up histeria to attack Iraq. "Any reason" just would not have been enough.

Thank you for the decent responses Tiberius and grandma.

I still have at least one problem with your theory Tiberius. the two hi-jacked aircraft and the subsequent cell phone calls from the passengers to loved ones. Several of the passengers and at least one terrified hostess, stating they were heading straight towards the World Trade Center Buildings.

I do wonder if a good number of people we would very much like to have on our side of issues at Common Dreams, are not turned off reading conspiracy theories written by us, theories that are so difficult to believe.

The twin tower theory isn't at all like the conspiracy theory that there was more than a single shooter who murdered JFK. That theory almost anyone could believe. I
believed it before it was a theory.

What ever did happen to those two hi-jacked aircraft? A UFO took them perhaps? There also are reports there were large UFOs in the area on 9-11. The way those two buildings internal structures were designed, would allow them to fall after a massive fire,__ just as they did.

What is important to me is. It does not matter how they were destroyed, Bush and Cheney were Hell bent on doing what they are doing, the war with Iraq was bing planned a year prior to 9-11. They would have attacked Iraq for any reason and they didn't have to destroy the WTC buildngs to have an excuse.

Kem Patrick - Thanks for being a voice of sanity about the 9/11 tragedy. I saw a Senate hearing on this, soon after it happened - they questioned various architects and building engineers and they said pretty much what you did. But there was a little "hint" that maybe there was some "cost-cutting" in the construction of the buildings - not an unusual thing in NYC, unfortunately. This was quickly glossed over and I heard no more about it. But if that was true, it would most likely be plain old graft and corruption, business as usual, not an evil plot.

Two things:

I believe that the police and the military would for the most part either grudgingly follow orders or do so willingly.
It was the police in Nazi controlled countries of Europe that did most of the rounding up of Jews and others during WWII.
As for our well armed populace......gimme a break.

Does anyone in their right mind think that disorganized, untrained civilians with their hunting rifles and pistols could do anything more than mildly annoy trained soldiers?

The very reason that the Iraqi insurgents can sometimes stage successful attacks on our troops is because they ARE trained soldiers.

A real military is trained in assaulting defensive positions. And is backed up with artillery and aircraft.

In the event of such a situation our only hope would be that the military would quickly become so sickened by the lopsided carnage that they would defy their commanders and refuse to fight.
As a veteran I don't see that happening.

all the best

Kem, I agree with this part of your thinking,
"Then, even if all of that impossible to conceal prepatory work to sucessfully bring the two buildings straight down was secretly accomplished, which I find to be totally unbelieveable, then the conspiritors would have to insure that both bulidings were struck by hijacked aircraft, at almost the same hour to ;insure their cover story. Even Jules Vern wouldn't write that fiction."
I have thought a bit about this aspect of the "attack." I think of the premis of the attack on the WTC. The planes hit the WTC, the buildings collapse, therefore, the planes 'caused' the collapse.
In essense, it is an illusionist's trick, the plane impacts were pre-planned as much as the building's collapse was. It was just as essential that the planes hit their targets, as it was for the buildings to collapse. Not one possibility that one could happen without the other.
From an engineering point of view, the random aspects of the illusion need to be eliminated completely before the trick can be performed. So eliminate any chance that a (human) pilot would miss the target.
Only a mechanical remote-control piloting system, with the additional insurance of a homing device planted in the building could guarantee a "hit." Therefore, most likely, the planes that hit the WTC were not the planes that were full of passengers and hijackers and were more likely weaponized drones.
Building 7 most likely was the control and command of the operation.
From a "Psy-Ops" point of view, the collapse of the WTC twin towers would not have been emotionally as profound if the planes actually caused the damamage they did, and that was the end of it. The towers would have remained standing, at most, the tops of the buildings would have toppled off to the side. Instead, the buildings had to fall completely to the ground, as if a home-run had been struck by the enemy. Had they remained standing, that would have been too hopeful for the traumatized public, something like "hit hard but still standing" or "United We Still Stand."
No, they had to take it all down, and that will be their downfall.
Kem, I'm sorry to say that the "pancake theory" you embrace is just flapjacks, flopping in the wind. Things, let alone steel and glass buildings, don't fall straight down with "no where else to go." The path of LEAST RESISTANCE not MAXIMUM RESISTANCE is the correct answer, and it would make the building topple, not do a vertical collapse.
The speed of the collapse was virtually "free-fall" at about 10 stories per second. Go look at a ten story building and imagine it falling quickly and neatly, straight down, in 1 second flat. That is not natural, that is not the way the physical world works.
The cascade of impacts you describe, never occurred, because sequential explosives detonated each progressive floor, allowing the top of the building to fall vertically, as if in free fall itself. It is irrefutable science. It is not theory, it is a nightmare.
I don't intend to give you flack, I just share, given it is all I can think of doing at this point. Like I said, for me, it was a revelation, because I believed the official story for about a year. Things clicked for me, mostly out of personal experience. I did do some explosive work with miniatures, early in my career. If I hadn't had that experience, I might not have such a firm grasp on the basic principals of controlled demolition. I also know a few magicians, and that experience taught me about illusions and distraction.
There is something holding you back, and I don't know what it is, but confront those beliefs and dig deeper. You may find with the truth, a new strength you didn't know you had.

Coco, if you click on the blue name, your computer will explode.

Did you print the website information the nurse from Hawaii gave about the serious DU problems they were having over there? That important string about depleted uranium was quickly hidden away in the archves.

Good to know that conservatives are attending this site. I welcome a polite exchange.

Hi Paul, I don't disagree that 9-11 was an excuse for Bush to invade Iraq. I don't disagree that Bush is a damn fool for using Depleted uranium for weapons, or that he is on the verge of becoming a dictator. I do agree with everything you have ever posted here prior to this.

The one thing I do not agree with, is the twin towers were imploded by explosives. And I do Hope that does not make me a misfit, an idiot, or a neo-con. It is not rational for me to believe that the tons of explosives required for such a job could be so well placed to bring down both buildings, so precisely and no one ever detected the explosives.

It would have required fifty men working daily for two months to set it up. Were all of the towers security personnel and all of the buildings maintencece personnel involved?__ Really?

After the explosives were all set and wired, the demolition experts now wait for the terrorists to sucessfully hijack the aircraft and fly the aircraft into the buildings?___ What a plan! I cannot buy that. Then there are those who say the hijacked aircraft were not the aircraft that struck the towers. Well, the many cell phone conversations of passengers on the hijacked aircraft say otherwise. Passengers described to loved ones what was ocurring as the aircraft flew at low altitudes into lower Manhatten and headed straight for the towers. Oh yes, those passengers were all in on it too.

Then we have the question of the vast ammount of gold and prescious gems banked there. Why would they not have been removed to safety before 9-11? That was the major priority of the "rescue" work. Once the gold was recovered, the search and rescue effort was over.

All it required for those two buildings to fall straight down, was for a single floor to collapse, when it did, the one above had no place to go except down. Then it was excess weight which progressively built up and bam, bam, bam, all the way to the ground. Certainly the concrete dust blowing out of the windows would appear to be explosions, essentially that is what it was; we pancake a huge slab of concrete onto another and boooom!! Dust will be blowing out just like it would with an an explosion.

I knew when I posted my opinion on this subject that I'd likely get some flack, hope no one shuns me for disagreeing with those who believe otherwise.

I do not argue we have the problems of Cheney/Bush, which are too numerous to mention, and we all know what they are attemptiong to do. I just don't believe the theory that the twin towers were imploded and neither does one of my cousins and his friends, who once all worked for a company in the seventies that imploded and brought down building in Nevada and California.

aymon

can you please say where we are supposed to end up when we click your link? (your name in blue)

C-Span interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlB966zQIZ4

WorldNetDaily article:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55824

You LIBERALS are FUCKING IDIOTS

You LIBERALS are IDIOTS

Thousands in DOJ oppose Gonzales. Read NYTimes excerpt:

In an opinion article that was first published this month in The Denver Post and has since been circulated in the department, Mr. Koppel, the civil appellate lawyer, said that under the Bush administration the department had been "thoroughly politicized in a manner that is inappropriate, unethical and indeed unlawful."

Mr. Koppel, who has been with the department since 1981, wrote that his decision to issue such a public criticism of Mr. Gonzales and the department "subjects me to a substantial risk of unlawful reprisal from extremely ruthless people who have repeatedly taken such action in the past."

"But I am confident," Mr. Koppel continued, "that I am speaking on behalf of countless thousands of honorable public servants, at Justice and elsewhere."

Martial law, in the US???? Let's analyze this.

1.) Who will enforce it? Local police? Doubtful. Federal Law Enforcement? No, there are not enough of them. Blackwater, and other mercenaries? Not enough of them, either. Who does that leave? The Army, and the National Guard. This author is obviously a typical "progressive" who probably has not served in the military, has no family in the military, knows no one in the military, and will make damm sure no child of his serves. IF he HAD served, he would know that a good half, at least, of the enlisted personal in the regular army and probably two thirds of enlisted in the Guard are either NRA members or sympathizers. As the first act of Martial Law would have to involve disarming the populace, the army would probably mutiny. The Guard certainly would.

2.) How will the civilian population react? The unarmed regressives in their little rich enclaves will whine loudly, and then start fingering their unreliable neighbors. The rest of us, who own over 100 million firearms, will fight. And win. One needs only to look at what is happening in Iraq, and, here, the army would be on OUR side, not the governments.

I know it feels good to fantasize about these things, but you really ought to dedicate your time to more productive activities, like the black helicopters and getting tin foil for you heads so the CIA cannot control your thoughts.

AYMON: About a week ago I typed a long posting and sent it, and saw NOTHING. I tried to encapsulate my own points and sent that a second time. Still nothing. I wondered if something in my computer system or server was too slow to deliver the message? Then the next day I saw it there. It's evident something is IN the CD system looking over some postings, as at least seven people have asked where their comment disappeared. Well, nothing is perfect... at least we get to see MOST of it here!

TIBERIUS BOND: Although the technical applications may be there, I believe 911 was an inside job because the U.S. government branches were waiting for the neocons to monopolize, i.e. THEIR check-balances to absolute power were IN place, with a complicit bought and paid-for-profit media also in place to do the work of manufacturing consent.
GOD raises points about the anti-Christ. I have tried to make this same analogy in some of my prior postings. Can you imagine a greater evil than co-opting the church (that's WHERE the Bush-Cheney support has been cultivated through authoritarian programming and indeed delivered) to do the WORK of murder on a grand, global scale? By setting into "believers" minds the idea that all-out calamity (Armageddon) constitutes God's will, these millions stand by as things get worse believing this sickening self-fulfilling prophecy constitutes Divine justice!
JP: I agree with you, too.

Vicar~
Excellent takedown of the 911 Denier's blind assertions...I dig it and saved it!

Now...about the Moon landing...I am skeptical, but willing to learn. What sites can you direct me to?

Vicar,

Do you have a link to your assertion about the BBC having reported the collapse of Bldg #7 20 minutes before it happened?

I haven't heard that and would like to take a look at that.

(I agree with all of the other evidence you have sited)

The daily and ever-present totalitarianism of money is arguably worse than any outward martial law.

But I remember the fear swarming back in the Reagan days in which FEMA was to take charge of the entire national government. But today we see how terribly incompetent FEMA was, even at responding to a regional natural disaster. Was it smoke & mirrors all along? Indeed, how much of fascism is built on fear itself?

In any case, I agree wholeheartedly that the time for impeachment is now (if not a few decades ago). But more importantly, the time to engage & educate our fellow citizens is now, our failing Republic needs a restructuring. A reaffirmation of the Bill of Rights, privacy, habeas corpus, and perhaps -- seize the moment -- Range/IRV, no electoral college or primary system, and few other reforms we failed to enact in the 20th century.

We're essentially 19th century anachronisms at this point.

The US military, combined with all the mercenaries this administration can scrape together, demonstrably cannot control a nation of 30 million people despite five years of effort to do so. Is there a good reason to believe they can control a nation with ten times as many people and twenty times as much terrain? From a practical perspective, would the administration even think that such a thing was feasible?

Kem,
As much research as you have done on nuclear issues I'm surprised you haven't researched how we ended up shooting so much of it in the mid-east. The demolished/imploded buildings on 911 were the excuse to use DU, in the PNAC effort to reduce world population by 2 billion people.

This link will provide some answers:

http://www.physics911.net/nuclearfalseflag

scarlet _ pimpernel -- Yes, America has become a dumbed-down and ill-informed nation, but that is largely due to a mainstream media that panders always to the lowest common intellectual denominator, that almost always parrots whatever b.s. comes out of the Bush administration (and more and more lately, out of its generals), and right-wing radio talk shows that spout propaganda all day and all night (some of it beamed to our soldiers in Iraq). When network "news" chooses to cover Lindsay Lohan's latest trip to rehab instead of topics like this, Americans who do not use the web for news lose access to vital information. Information they should be using to press Congress to act now now now.

Congress needs to - right now - impeach Cheney, then Bush. This would put Nancy Pelosi in the president's chair until January 2009. No more appointments, for instance, of loyal Republican market fundamentalist/economic fascists to positions where they can allow the concentration of media ownership in a few hands, all belonging to buddies of George and Dick.

Editor

Where is my article that I submitted about 15 minutes ago, or have sent it to blackshirt to vsit me in the dead of night?

Folks remember this.

This is bit late to write on this but Dave Lindorf's take on the current situation is quite serious.

About one and a half years ago when the CD Comments section was not yet on, I used to correspond with some of the writers at Counter Punch and CD, and had raised the possibility of both Martial Law and concentration camps and suspension of the Constitution. At the time, one of the more well known writers on both CD and CP to whom I had described this scenario had been somewhat optimistic and his exact words were "I do not think the American people are at that point yet [i.e., Martial Law, suspension of the Constitution, and all Muslims being herded into concentration camps]."

I think he neverthelesss shared my views on the possibility with other major progressive intellectauls. Over the last year I have seen the issue take a life of its own with increasing vigour. Dave Lindorf's article nicely lays down the legal framework that has been put in place.

However, many of the posters above are still too horrified to think that such a thing could happen, just as the progressive intellectual to whom I wrote to did not, but he has come around now.

There are a number of points that are a bit deep and require a more sustained Machiavellian analysis that have not been broached by Dave, and not discussed by other bloggers except by accident and tangentialy. It is important to know these to be prepared to defend human rights (including your own). Denial makes you more vulnerable and paralyzable by the shock and awe of the event or events that may likely occur in addition to the traditional, old style Martial Law or instead of it.

Some more delicate souls above are fearful, and they seem to think that by not talking about it will make the demons disappear. They won't. They are too near to success to abandon this project.

However, you can take courage from the fact that these are NOT supermen and women. They have proved their ineptness so far, just as Hitler proved his by invading Russia, and sealing his doom. Therefore while the intention may be there, one needs a very sophisticated force to control tens of millions of educated, inventive, freedom-loving people over a vast country. Take courage, then, in this knowledge that such a sophisticated apparatus is not yet detectable. Dave should have mentioned that.

As the Buddha said:

ALL BEINGS TREMBLE BEFORE DEATH

That includes tyrants too. Old Harry Truman rendered the same wisdom in a more folksy American idiom:

EVERYBODY GETS INTO THEIR PANTS ONE LEG AT A TIME.

This being said, here is a possible deeply Machiavellian way the coup could unfold, and the evidence I will use will make the scenario plausible.

1. The American military was not and has never been entirely crazy. Many people from privates to generals and admirals have been people of principle, highly educated, well read, and after retirement have voiced concerns similar to what appaers on this blog. At the crucial time when the Martial Law is declared, these people will not be reliable for the Fuhrer. For example General Peter Pace has issued an order to remind all military personnel their duty to the Constitution and not obey any order that commands use of WMD.

2. It is precisely for this reason(and this is one part of the Machiavellian Scheme), the land military (army, marines and national guard) has been sent as fodder to the killing fields of Iraq, and possibly Iran soon, to be "otherwise" occupied and "broken" so that they do not offer resistance to the Martial Law.

3. The pseudo-"military" that will actually put the ML in place is the mercenenary, Judeo-Christian fundamentalist, psychopaths of Blackwater, and some of the top brass in the standard military who have remained behind and are deemed "reliable" - - i.e from the Judeo-Christian fundamentalist backgrounds and Southern backwaters.

4. As for controlling 300 million people, that number is not correct. The true progressive segment of the white population is pretty small - - probably about 50 - 70 million strong. The rest of the progressives come from the traditional sources - - African American and Hispanic. There are at least 150 million whites who beieve in the "manifest" destiny of the white peoples, whose education and knowledge about the other cultures and peoples of the world in Asia, Africa and Latin America is pitiful or non-existent. These will be made into frenzied, gun totting mob, following the excellent techniques established by Goebels in the Third Reich. Here are the brown shirts, the Christian and Judeo Zionist zombies in their millions. Their mission would be to "Protect Jerusalem from the Anti-Christ Muslim hordes who are brown and black and hence untermenschen not worth the Rapture of the blonde white Christ." They will be let loose among the 70 milion or so progressive and poor whites and the about 60 million or so progressive or poor blacks and browns.

5. The people coordinating these mobs will be the Kapi from Blackwater, the KKK, the Aryan Army and so forth as well as the loyal military. They will be the Blackshirts or the SS of the new Fuhrer.

6. Since the control of the media is already theirs, the new Goebbels will have more power than his 1940's counterpart.

7. Of course, every legitimate American institution - - especially Universities and the academia - - will be closed down, silenced and many intellectuals disapppeared to deprive progressives of any leadership to lead organised resistance.

8. Some brave war vets who have beome progressive and some retired military officers may lead progressive resistance with their skill and knowledge, but it will be a long haul.

9. This is going to be shocking to many, but it is already happening now in full view. Observe that the white racists have been seething at the possibility of "President Obama". The guy does not even have a wholesome Christian name such as "Jefferson" or "Washington". Thus the financiers of permanent "War on Terror" have approached Hilary Clinton and Edwards to form the winning white ticket. Consequently, Obama is now the "bette noir", despite being coffee and suited to the nines, with superb diction. He is being unceremoniously given the heave-ho. Of course, there will be no election, but the charade of the primaries and debates will be kept up. At the time that Martial Law is actually declared, a "national unity" government will be formed with the Clintons, Edwards and the DLC co-opted to be at the Emperor's side. This will further confuse the public and make them believe that everything that is happening is legit. and "good for the republic."

OK so far, the Nazis are are winning.

What could go wrong in this grand plan?

Several things. I leave it to you to figure it out whether internal economic and Natural events and external events will play along for the plan to go smoothly?

Think about it. How many major nations and groups in the world, including the European Union, will want this Fourth Reich to succeeed and come into possession of the vast military arsenal of America? So what do you think they will do?

On this positive note, I will end. There may be tough, death and destructive times ahead, especially for millions of Muslims world wide. But eventually the tyranny will run out of steam as a result of the confluence of the events internal and external I listed above.

But be prepared for some years of rough riding.

Peace

Aymon

Can a minority keep a majority oppressed. Anyone heard of Apartheid?

Martial law in the USA? If that's what it'll take for your government to stop destroying other nations, I say: bring it on!! The sooner the better.
I live in a "friendly" country on the other side of the world, yet we are unhappy with your policies. Is there anything else that would change your behaviour the world over?
Maybe the citizens of the USA should get a taste of what does it mean to have no elctricity, no TV to watch reality shows and mind-numbing crime series; no supermakets, malls and shops to while away your time; no fast food joints to fatten yourselves; no petrol for your assault-vehicle-like SUVs, etc. etc. Maybe if you could live like the majority of our planet for a couple of months, you'd appreciate that your behaviour is out of touch with human norms, with decency and with reality.

I cannot buy into that story that the Twin Towers coming down was an inside job. Just to implode a eighteen story tall hotel in las Vegas, took a demolition company weeks to drill the necessary holes, cut half way through specific beams, run miles of wire and then place the necessary explosives, timers and electrical circuits. That was for an eighteen story building, not the dual twin towers.

Then, even if all of that impossible to conceal prepatory work to sucessfully bring the two buildings straight down was secretly accomplished, which I find to be totally unbelieveable, then the conspiritors would have to insure that both bulidings were struck by hijacked aircraft, at almost the same hour to ;insure their cover story. Even Jules Vern wouldn't write that fiction.

Not one person ever saw anyone performing all of that mecessary work, NO one ever detected the necessary pre-placed explosive charges and wiring, none of the hundreds of maintenance personnel and both of the buildings security forces never saw anthing suspicious.

Nope, the buildings came down because of the tons of jet fuel, that created enormous fires and weakened the strcutures inner steel beams on the floors at and near where the aircraft struck. When that happened the upper floors above those weakended and failed beams began to come straight down, and as the weight built up on the top of the destruction, it just accelerated and down they came __ like dominoes.

There were no explosives. That is utter nonsense. It didn't take the architects who designed the towers to long to figure out why they fell and they sure as heck would have known if it was from explosives.

Anyone can believe what they choose, but this is as silly to me as the conspiracy theory story that Neal Armstrong never set a foot on the moon, That story is the moon landing was all done on a hollywood movie set. Sure it was__ and no one ever squealed. Hell, the president can't even have sex in the oral office without it being found out.

Pope fears Bush is antichrist, journalist contends - Church - journalist Wayne Madsden - Brief Article

WASHINGTON DC -- According to freelance journalist Wayne Madsden, "George W Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs and his constant references to 'evil doers,' in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders, bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations--the anti-Christ."

Madsen, a Washington-based writer and columnist, who often writes for Counterpunch, says that people close to the pope claim that amid these concerns, the pontiff wishes he was younger and in better health to confront the possibility that Bush may represent the person prophesized in Revelations. John Paul II has always believed the world was on the precipice of the final confrontation between Good and Evil as foretold in the New Testament.

Before he became pope, Karol Cardinal Wojtyla said, "We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of the American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel."

The pope worked tirelessly to convince leaders of nations on the UN Security Council to oppose Bush's war resolution on Iraq. Vatican sources claim they had not seen the pope more animated and determined since he fell ill to Parkinson's Disease. In the end, the pope did convince the leaders of Mexico, Chile, Cameroon and Guinea to oppose the U.S. resolution.

Madsen contends that "Bush is a dangerous right-wing ideologue who couples his political fanaticism with a neo-Christian blood cult."

COPYRIGHT 2003 Catholic New Times, Inc.

Good points Rebel Farmer. It will end in anarchy, riots like we can't even dream of. Cities on fire and mob rule. It will be Katrina magnified ten thousand times.

Food? The supemarkets will be emptied out in a few days and no chance of restocking most of them. People kill for food. There are few small farmers, it is not like it was in 1929. Our credit cards will be useless, frozen. There will be racial riots and eventual ruin of the country. We'll still have a military, and a very possible military coup. We'll know soon enough one way or another.

I hope Yankee Dog hss it figured right, but if we bomb Iran and the signs are there that we will, then it's gonna be more than bad. China and Russia have both said they will support Iran and China "may" cash in their bonds if we attack Iran and a depresion will ensue. The Chinese are very patient, they can hold out much longer than we can and will be there to pick up the scraps of a once powerful nation when the smoke clears.

Tiberius is right. Check out an article by Chaim Kupferberg, titled "The mystery surrounding the death of John O'Neill. He offers a solid explanation that 9-11 was an inside job. The Bush/Cheney puppet government run by corporate elites had to motive, means and opportunity to bring down the towers (a new Pearl Harbor). This cabal used Saudi Arabian and Pakistani as proxies. He asks, "who was in the best position to manage the consequences? the flow of information? all the elements necessary to a successful operation (subverting airport security, guiding the planes to their specific targets rather than intercepting them? Who stood to benefit in the aftermath with a ready excuse to attack Iraq for oil? The brazennous of taking down such an overarching symbol of financial stability as the Twin Towers, and kill thousands in the process, shows the determination to achieve the ends for which the treasonous action was perpetrated - a dissident-proof, totalitarian oligarchy of elites.
Soon the coup will be complete when Iran is attacked and martial law is imposed.

If it ever gets to the point of martial law, with armed military knocking on or knocking down the doors of US citizens, it will get very ugly for the Bushco funded mercenaries or for whatever military personnel that may remain loyal to a fascist government. Despite the seeming complacency of Americans, most will not take too kindly to such behavior in their homeland. This sort of threat is one of the reasons the original framers of the constitution wanted an armed citizenry, and armed it is.

Here's what I want to know if martial law happens.....

Blackwater/et al. - If martial law is declared and they are going to be paid to point guns at Americans, who is going to write their payroll checks? And where are they going to cash them?

Economy - I would venture to guess that if martial law is declared that the economy will implode. The stock market is already on that course. And the value of US currency? What happens to that? Back to using gold? Back to barter?

Oil/Fuel/Electricity - To run all the vehicles, tanks, jets, jails, etc. it seems to me that somebody has to make the gasoline and electricity and get it to where it needs to be. How is that going to happen with the country in chaos? Bagdad only gets about 1 to 2 hours of electricity a day now and gas rationing is already in effect. So how would this all work in America when the shit hits the fan?

Food - Where does that come from? How will it get into the kitchens of Americans? Will they even know how to cook it?

If martial law does happen, it looks like to me that Americans will first get on the track of survival. Whatever that takes. Every man/woman for himself. And quite frankly, I can' even imagine what it will be like, or what people will do.

I have a lot of questions, but I don't have any answers. I don't have a clue as to what the military, police, national guard, Blackwater, or any of the other power players will do. The one thing I do know is that I am connected to my neigbors and my community. We have been there for each other for many years and have been mutually supportive. We know each others hearts. My suggestion is to get to know your neighbors. Work with your city councils to come up with emergency plans. This is a lot harder than just going out and buying guns and ammunition (although I think those may be neccesary too). If we don't band together in helping each other with the daily task of survival, we ain't going to make it folks.

Martial 'law?' What's that - we already have a higher percent of our citizens in prison than any other nation on this planet. Perhaps Bush/Cheney will take another hundred million of us hostage - to make arms for the Religious Reich's Star Troopers.
I have this vision of our broken army deploying on the Beltway, fixing bayonets and charging inward...
Meanwhile, since Everyman's Hovel is his castle, perhaps we should be stockpiling ammunition and sharpening our own bayonets. What 'interesting' times we find ourselves living in. Please wake me when it's over.

IF martial law comes (and I give it a big maybe), I don't think that the international community will come rushing to your defense or aid. A couple of recent examples - the aid money that was sent after Katrina was squandered, stolen, misused, abused, etc. Same with the goodwill after the manufactured 9/11.

Don't expect any support - financial or emotional - from the international community. It is likely that many out there are going to be plenty glad because lately, you've not been good international citizens. Your credit in the global world isn't strong - most of you posting on this site know that.

My own individual experience is that I am given many opportunities to learn lessons - and when I choose not to learn the lesson, the Divine Energy uses increasingly harsher situations in order for me to learn what I need to learn. More often than I would care to admit, it gets to the dope slap stage. Maybe this is your community dope slap.

Do us a favour, huh? Don't get all offended when the rest of the world shrugs their shoulders and says, "Sorry buddy. Can't help 'ya." And don't be surprised when they don't say, "Good luck."

In what it **was** America, I have to agree with LOCUST when he says tht ** It will be private Blackwater blackshirts that enforce martial law**

All the indications, rationally, just get there ---

It's a well funded and planned project not really difficult to implement in light of the fact that our current enforcement boys and girls have been sadly mutilated in their functions by those **advocates** of the FREE at any cost, which looks very much like a State of Anrchy, ruled by those **untouchable** fews that never ever gave anything to what this Country it's all about, the Sovereign Citizens included - an Historic drama

I don't see China doing that Kem; they also care about money and a US depression doesn't help them. They believe they can over take world dominance economically and with a military build-up; though without direct conflict.

Marshal Law will happen by an internal conflict started by those who have no money; the American people. The distribution of wealth and opportunity in this country is disasterous and can only end in a class war.

It would not help to impeach Bush and cheney. Israel already has the replacments picked…..

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/political/one_world_government/impeach_bush.htm

I disagree with the final sentence of the article. If the military participates in a coup, it will be _because_ it is broken. The officer corps has been corrupted, the NCO's with wisdom and experience will have left, and the rank and file will largely be foreigners wanting citizenship or the dregs of society. Neither of the latter two groups have much concept of what the constitution is really about. The civic virtues instilled in military tradition by George Washington will have been ground out of the armed forces by 30 years of politicized tampering. A broken military will be unable to remember it is supposed to be subservient to civil society. Thus, all the pieces are complete and Goz is probably right, there will be no 2009 inauguration.

Yeah you are right Yankee Dog, the war was profitable for Cheney, The Carlyle Group, Bush and some others. Maybe they won't enact martial law, unless China cashes in their U. S. bonds and we have a depression. The Iraqi war was not profitable for the general public.

I am concerned that there will be no inauguration in 2009. It is apparent that if there was an honest and open election, the current regime would lose power. Why would these despots put in place a set of executive orders, signing statements, and laws that delivered near-absolute power to their opposition. How would they react if Hillary Clinton had such concentrated power?

This is not a coincidence; there must be a strategy and goal behind this accelerated and continued erosion of the Constitution, our rights, and our personal freedoms.

Waiting for the other shoe to drop...

The only way to deal with Martial Law other than surrender is to fight those who fight us.

IED's, snipers, ambushes, and high profile assassinations, kidnapings, and suicide bombings--or we could impeach and imprison the sorry misfits now leading us on to this civil war.

Get your ammo and food supplies stored away! It looks like it's going to be a bumpy ride!

Everything Bush/Cheney touch turns to shit!
How will we ever clean it up?

Everything Bush/Cheney touch turns to shit!
How will we ever clean it up?

Cindy was live on KPFK this past Tuesday the 24th, about 5:00 Pacific time.

For those who say the military, whether Guard or Army, won't turn their guns on Americans, perhaps you've forgotten May 1970 when the Guard killed four Americans at Kent State.

They're military. They'll do what they're told. And killing has come easy to them under current military training and practice.

And if you think Americans will resist martial law, you haven't been listening to the Republican millions who support every violation of law, civil liberties, and common decency that Bush and Cheney have committed against the United States. Those are the people who make martial law possible, who make fascism possible, who make all tyrannies possible. Those are the people you will have to decide whether to kill if Bush and Cheney pull the trigger. Life in America may be about to become very ugly.

There's two distinct flavors of right-wing extremists, and the wedge is easy to locate. There's the angry middle-class pro-neocon Limbaugh/Bush people. And there's the angry, often rural, anti-neocon white identity people (perhaps Buchanan, David Duke, Posse Comitatus, etc.).

The wedge is that one group of the extreme right is pro-Zionist, willing to trade in civil liberties for "security", etc. and inclined toward authoritarian (Limbaugh). The other is anti-semitic, traditionally tax-resisting, and perhaps more militant.

Both groups are inclined toward embracing the other wedges (sexism, racism, nationalism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc.). But it's important to note the difference. Limbaugh will praise martial law and make excuses for it, whereas the others -- simply put -- won't.

Dave Lindorff, I agree that we are in dire straits, but I believe that in the event of another attack, the majority of Americans would actually endorse some of the measures you mention. It wouldn't take much to whip up even more fury against not only the "turrists," but against those of us on the left who are "soft" on them.
This country has always been proto-fascist, and the scenario you describe is not that hard to imagine. I often think about Cold War constructions of the "innate" authoritarianism of Soviet-style communism, without considering the number of times Russia had been invaded by foreign enemies and then faced the arms and propaganda race initiated by a highly militarized US after WWII. Now that we have experienced only one attack on our soil, look how easily we are willing to give up our "rights" to an overly-powerful authoritarian executive.

I can't believe that the roll of right wing talk radio in implementing Martial Law hasn't come up. The dittoheads will be encouraged into acts of violence against any open display of protest against Martial Law. They're a bunch of Brownshirts that can be deployed in minutes and probably have as much firepower as the average policeman.

Also with the Bush approval numbers in the mid-twenties they must see the obvious fact that they're going to loose huge in the 2008 elections. They did not amass vast power to the office of the Presidency to hand it over to Hillary Clinton.

They attacked Iraq because there's profit to be had. Foreign wars are good for business.

War on US soil or Martial Law is a totally different matter; very very bad for business.

Why did they attack Iraq Yankee Dog?

I do believe that fiasco cost a few bucks. And of course the reason for the war is oil, but the price of gasoline has more than doubled since we started the war in Iraq.

And we now have a broken army according to several knowledgable generals, including Colin Powell, who is a bit more intelligent than GWB. Well, that isn't exactly a compliment for Powell.

Anyway our military eqipment is also in a horrible state of disrepair and that costs tons of money. Not a good argument Yankee Dog, try another angle. Hope you can give us a good reason to not worry about Cheney Bush.